have Very wel sayd wherupon we inferr also that to give voices in deciding of controversies and judging of synners is not a part of government but a power and right that the saincts out of office have The Elders are to teach direct and govern the church in election of officers they are to doo the like in judging excommunicating wicked persons and in all other publik affairs Of the exposition of Mat. 18.17 and why their Treatise was not particularly answered I have spoken before the special things therin are in this treatise repeted and so shal be here answered 2. Their second observation I like wel yeild unto that men may change and redress according to Gods word things that are amyss but withal I would have them 1. plainly to acknowledge wherin they erred and what they stablish for truth and 2. to take away by Gods word the reasons wherupon they builded before Which wither these our opposers have doon as they ought I leav it for the discreet reader to judge by their writings compared with those which were published heretofore to the contrary 3. The third for the churches goverment by the officers is that which we alwayes have and stil do yeild to as even now I shewed As for our former practise altered and as he sayth by me acknowledged towching the order and manner of the practise in one particular I grant it but for the power of the Church wherof we treat I deny it There never was such a practise in my dayes as wherby the Elders should be esteemed the Church and to have the povver of the same 4. The 4. observation is that our exceptions are such as the Anabaptists would object in much like manner Yet dooth he not shew this so to be and I know for their successive Ministerie they are neerer the Anabaptists than wee both for it and other points they build upon the very grounds of poperie as after shal be manifested But what doe vve except is it not from our former Articles and Apologie confirmed by scriptures from vvhich these are departed in penning also vvherof these that thus vvrite had a principal hand So they doo hereby not onely joyn vvith our cōmon adversaries vvho intvvite us vvith Anabaptistrie but impute weaknes to their ovvn former vvritings and cause vvherin more strength of truth hath appeared then ever they shal be able to pul dovvn hovvsoever they may assayl it The 5. observation is a mist cast before the readers eyes a collection of 7. things vvherin they vvould make men beleev vve are gone from that vve held heretofore The errour vvherof I vvil shevv hereafter vvhen as order requireth I have examined the ansvvers that they make for themselves to these our Articles vvhich novv next folovv The first point of difference in the Letter 1. Wheras we had learned and professed that Christ hath given the power to receiv in or to cut off any member to the whole body togither of every Congregation and not to any one or moe members sequestred from the whole now wee have been lately taught that the Church which Christ sendeth to for the redress of synns Mat. 18.17 is not to be understood of the whole body of the Congregation but of the Church of Elders And it being granted of al that with the Church is the power the Elders being the Church have the power and so not the whol body of the congregation togither And in the copie vvhich Lavvne printed The 24. Article of the Confession of our faith confirmed in our Apologie pag. 60.62.63 professeth that the povver to receiv in or to cut off any member is given to the whole body togither of every Christian Congregation Mat. 18.17 c. These have pleaded for the Eldership to be the Church Mat. 18. and to have both rightful power and able power to excommunicate though without against the consent of the body of the Congregation The scriptures to confirm our former doctrine and practise are in our Confession Psal. 122.3 Act. 2.47 Rom. 16.2 Mat. 18.17 1. Cor. 5.4 2. Cor. 2.6.7.8 Levit. 20.4.5 24. 14. Num. 5 2.3 Deut. 13.9 The reasons in our Apologie are nine the first referring to proofs of former positions the other 8 confirmed by sundry arguments doctrines practises gathered from the Prophetical and Apostolical scriptures For ansvver hereunto their Advertisement telleth vs many things First of their Treatise published on Mat. 18.17 touching vvhich I also have spoken before Neyther is this point of the Churches power therin plainly handled but closely caried neyther is ther any thing at al sayd to take avvay the other 8. reasons in our Apologie Let the reader compare the writings and judge There be also things formerly written both by others and by them selves touching this of Mat. 18. and things lately published against M. Bernard about it to these they give no answer at al yet cal they upon us to write more 2. Secondly they carp at this phrase the Church of Elders and would have it the Congregation or Assemble of Elders saying that so men might sooner perceiv the vanitie of our error And that I my self elswhere shew the word is sometime used for an Assemblie of Elders I answer 1. If they wil rase the word Church out of the Bible as unfit they may doo so in Mat. 18. and in this controversie or els they must give us leav to keep wonted known words which help men to discern the truth of matters 2. Neyther shew they any one scripture for the phrase they would have the Congregation of Elders neyther did I ever shew or could see the word Church so to mean in al the new Testament but in the old which now is changed I have observed it in some few places 3. But be it Church or Congregation I wil not much contend yet I know their eyes wil dazel that look hereby to discern in our doctrine eyther vanity or error Albeit I confess these our opposites have the Papists on their side for so Card Bellarmine expoundeth this Tel the Church that is the Prelate or the Congregation of Prelates Stapleton interpreteth the Church Mat. 18. to be the Ministers 3. Thirdly they observe that the scriptures of the old testament are quoted for our 24. Article as directly carying us for this matter to the Church of Jsrael which now we would not be brought unto c. I answer the first is true for the scriptures cited doo shew that the people were interessed in those publike actions with their magistrates and therfore there is no reason that now there ministers should claym the whole power to themselves The latter is untrue for we did consider and decide the matter between us by the scriptures of the old Testament compared with the new and so are stil ready to doo But alwayes with observing the differences between the state of the church then now which are many as the Apostles
Ministerie though with corruptions how wil they be able to bear out such as are excoÌ„municated for so great contempt and errour 3. Thirdly as Antichristians doo excoÌ„municate such as they should not so doo they baptise such as they ought not even open impenitent Idolaters and their seed the generation of Vipers which Iohn Baptist would refuse Yea Mr Iohnson himself hath sayd of a better estate then Romes that Gods covenant is sacrilegiously violated whiles it is sayd to the open wicked in delivering them the seals of Gods covenant Thou art righteous Therfore if the Popes excoÌ„municatorie bulls are but bubbles because they are unjustly executed his baptisme also will be found but a fiction no true seal of salvation to such as receive it of him Finally touching circumcision I think it cannot be manifested that any people 's fallen from God and his Church using it colourablie for a religious action as al Antichristians and heretiks doo baptism at this day did or were bound to cutt their foreskin the second time if they came unto the truth of God as for example the Colchians Aegyptians and Aethiopians whom histories mentioÌ„ to be circumcised or the Samaritans whom Mr Iohnson acknowledgeth to have stil vsed circumcision Hereunto we may add out of the Iewish records how they hold that Al have leav to circumcise yea though it be an uncircumcised person or a servant or a woman or a child circumcising in the place where ther is no man But an hethen may not circumcise at al yet if he doo circumcise ther is no need to return circumcise the second time If this rule stand we shal not need to repeat our outward washing in baptism though given us by Antichrist or any other aliants from the church covenant of promise Of the Church of Rome The Church of Rome being acknowledged by al that fear God to be the throne of Antichrist Mr Iohnson himself having professed that the hierachie and Church-constitution of Antichrist is the most detestable anarchie of Satan that ever was yet imitating now M. Gifford M. Bernard and other professed enemies of the truth he pleads for that Church after this manner The Apostle expressly teacheth that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God 2. Thes. 2 4. And by the Temple understanding the Church of God it wil folow that Antichrist should sit in the Church of God and is there to be sought and found and not among Jewes Turks Pagans c. neyther that Antichrist takes away wholly the church of God and every truth and ordinance of the Lord c. I answer truth errour are closely couched togither in this their plea for the discerning wherof we are to consider first how Antichrists church is described in Gods word secondly what the state of the church of Rome is at this day The Antichristian synagogue is by the holy Ghost caled a Beast which signifyeth a kingdom it is named also a great citie which noteth the largenes of that politie and kingdom It cometh up out of the earth as being of this world which Christs kingdom that coÌ„meth down from heaven is not and therfore is caled a man of syn and a great whore whose head is Abaddon or Apollyon the destroyer of others and himself the son of perdition and they that follow him are the children of damnation This wicked generation warreth against the Lamb Christ and against the saincts blasphemeth Gods name tabernacle and them that dwel in heaven â—hat is the true Church whose conversation is heavenly Yet doo they all this mischeif under shew of Christian religion therfore this beast hath horns like the Lamb Christ this whore is arayed with purple skarlet guilded with gold precious stones and pearles as if she were the Queen and spowse of Christ she hath peace offrings Vovves as if she were devowt in Gods service bread and waters as ready to refresh the weary sowls Her doctrines sweet amiable lyeâ— spoken in hypocrisie but yet confirmed with signes and miracles as if they came from heaven her power and efficacie great prevayling over the many and the mighty the Kings Princes of world deceiving al nations with her inchantments and if it were possible Gods very elect her continuance and outward prosperitie long her end miserable consumed with the spirit of the Lords mouth and abolished with the brightnes of his coÌ„ming and for her destruction the heavens shall rejoyce and sing praises to God Now for to find the accomplishment of these things we are directed by the now Romish religion to a Catholik or Vniversal church one part wherof lives on earth an other under the earth and a third part in heaven 1. On earth is the whole multitude of such as are named Christians through the world united as a catholik body under one visible head the Pope who with his 2 horns like the Lamb pretendeth to be Christs Vicar in the Kingdom Preisthood and is professed of his vassals to be that triâ—d precious corner stone that sure foundation in Sion Jsa 28.16 and it is declared defined and pronounced that it is of necessity to salvation for al men to be subject unto him Vnder this Captain are three bands of souldiers the first clergie men as Bishops Preists Deacons Subdeacons and the rest of those shavelings the second Lay men as Kings Pinces Nobles Citizens and Commons of al sorts and vocations the third sort is both of the Clergie and Laitie caled Monks or Regulars 2. Vnder the earth or in Purgatorie fyre are the sowles they say of al such as dye with venial synns whose payns are to be holpen by prayers and masses sayd for them by such as are alive on earth 3. In heaven are the sowls of men departed in the popish fayth and delivered from purgatorie some of which the Pope canonizeth for Saincts whom the people on earth are religiously to honour and pray unto as their mediators with God This church on earth cannot err in things which it commandeth men to beleev oâ— doo whither they be expressed in scripture or not therfore men must beleev in her and trust her in al things for the truth of the faith as touching us relyeth upon her authoritie and she hath power to make lawes which doo bind and constreyn mens consciences These things premissed I come to our Opposites arguments Their first reason from 2. Thes. 2.4 is unperfectly alledged for the text there sayth of the man of syn that he dooth sit as God in the TeÌ„ple of God wherupon their conclusion must be that Antichrist sitteth as God in the church of God And if they can prove that he is the true God I wil yeild that his temple is the true temple his Church the true
be delivered to Satan and cast out frō among them verse 4.5.13 he did not purpose that the Elders should deliver and cast him out publikly the people privately all being gathered togither for that busines When he would have them purge out the old leven that they might keep the passover with unleavened bread verse 7.8 he meant not that the Ministers should purge the leven and keep the feast publikly the church privately neyther did the type of the Passover in Israel teach them such a thing No nor the judging of malefactors in Israel for when the Magistrates gave sentence of death and the people stoned wicked persons at the gates of the cities the rulers fact was not then publik and the peoples private the scripture teacheth us not thus to distinguish nor reason it self but that the execution was a part of the publik judgement The Apostle writeth in 1. Cor. 5. to all the Church blaming their neglect of the Censure even as in 1. Cor. 11. he writeth to al reproving their abuse in the Lords supper Wherfore if mē wil they may misapply this distinctiō to all church actiōs as to Sacramēts prayers election of officers and the like making them publik in the Elders and private in the church or people and so as the Papists doo also in other cases give all lay men but a private spirit as they use to speak and the ministers onely a publik We find not that Christian people are more excluded from being publik members of the body and actors with their ministers in the Kingdom of Christ then they are in the Preisthood and prophesie And we know no reason why the Pastor himself if he consent not with the Church in casting out such an incestuous person may not be sayd to have a private judgment as wel as an other man But by such popish distinctions the clergie were severed from the laitie and so the people by degrees turned out of al. And what now doo these our Opposits allow the people if they see their Elders to corrupt judgment therfore doo dissent frō thē they make it but the dissent of particular persons judgment from the publik of what sexe or condition soever they be the Christian Magistrate when he is a member of the Church not excepted touching ecclesiastical proceedings and it is to be regarded they say as there shal be cause they mean I trow as the Elders themselves shall see cause And so if a church have 3. or 4. officers and they corrupted with heresie or other vice the whole congregation of people of what condition soever any persons be can pass no publik ecclesiastical judgment upon them by this doctrine as for their private judgement or censure the Elders themselves wil regard it as there shal be cause If this be not a Prelacie which the Elders would usurp I know not what is But of these things see after in this Treatise pag. 22 23. 3. Come wee to reproches disgracings of the truth and way of God and wee shall see among the Papists how they disdeyn that the people should medle in matters of religion and judging of controversies They complayn of them for their ignorance unrulynes disobedience unto government they say the Protestants reason as Chore Dathan and Abyram did Nū 16. when they rebelled against Moses Aaron the Ministers of God saying that there needeth here in the Church no head to govern it because Christ is alwayes with it And did not those wicked men sayth the Papist in their rebelliō against Moses Arō vse the same reasō when they told thē to their face let it suffice you that al the multitude is holy they have God present with thē And why then take you upō your selves the rule over the people of our Lord As who would say having no need of any other ruler God being with them c. The very same reproches doo our Opposites now cast upon us advancing the Elders disgracing the people by intimating their simplicity errour charging us as oppugners of government and abusing against vs the example of Corah Dathā and Abiram as we have often heard with greif telling us we goe upon their grounds and the like For which we wish they may find repentance and mercy with the Lord least he turn the evil upon their own heads as Moses then did upon the Levites For unto them it seemed a smal thing that the God of Israel had separated them from the multitude of Israel to take them neer unto himself to doo the service of the Tabernacle to stand before the Congregatiō and to minister vnto them but they sought the office of the Preist also so these our opposers are not contēt with their office to be separated unto the gospel of God to stand and minister before and unto the Congregation but wil needs be the Congregation it self and take more authoritie then is given them from heaven wherof see after in this book pag. 17.21.22.23 c. 4. What enmitie and persecution the Papists have raysed against the withstanders of their heresies I need not speak al nations have felt of their cruelty Neyther would I here mention our opposite brethrens hard measure to us but that themselves have printed and seek to defend it cease not stil to prosecute their purposes against us Although themselves have lately professed practised publikly mainteyned the truthes which now they oppugn and persecute and bringing innovation into the Church would needs obtrude their errours upon our consciences eyther in judgment or in practise or in both Yea breaking the peace which thēselves had devised agreed unto and confirmed because their brethren would not agree to the undoing of themselves and their families for the satisfying of their wills as is after manifested in this treatise pag. 123 c. If the Lord should reward them according to their works herein towards us their account wil be heavy but my prayer shal be against their evils 5. Wheras many Treatises have been written in defense of the truthes we mainteyn these our Opposers answer them not neyther yet are they silent nor wil give rest unto others but urge aad provoke more writing stil. For the Churches power now in controversie our Apologie bringeth nine reasons these have answered onely one of them which is the sixt drawn from Mat. 18.17 all the other they let stand And yet what clamours have we heard because their exceptions against that one are not by us refuted So in our other articles of differences the scriptures and reasons set down in our Apologie and other books they pass by without answer If they can make any colourable exception they spare it not otherwise for want of argument they fall to asking of questions seeking if they can to insnare us Of which things the reader may see after in this book pag. 45 c. 51. c. 59 c. 23
say our controversie was about a Church established with officers things concerning people without officers are left to further consideration I answer true it is they sought alwayes to hide their errors and to put off things which pressed them to further consideration and the Elders having gott the Churches power into their hands they lysted not to scan the peoples right But we were necessarily drawn to controvert this point two wayes first because their errour did eat out the very constitution of the Church wherof they vvere as shal after be manifested Secondly because it vvas by themselves acknovvledged that vvhatsoever povver the people hav before is not to be takē away by their officers this therfore vvas an argument that manifested the evil vvhich lurketh in their nevv doctrine And vvho can soundly discuss any question if they look not to the foundation as Christ sayd to the Pharisees from the beginning it was not so 6. Finally vvheras vve shevved hovv their doctrine overthroweth the constitution of their Church as being vvithout povver from Christ they say First it were worth the knowing by whom the first man or two men of this church were received in and by what power I ansvver it is true they say and pray them therfore to shevv by vvhat povver their church began if they vvould have men acknovvledge it for true and planted by the povver of Christ Othervveise they must renounce their estate and begin a nevv As for ours it is shevved in our published vvritings vvhich if they can let them disprove as in Treat of the ministerie against M. Hildersh p. 73.74 Apologie p. 44.45.46.47 2. Secondly they say by our baptisme as also by accord in the truth we ar bound to communion in any thing lawful as God giveth occasion and opportunity I answer 1. they here turn from the question we speak of constitution of a particular church they tel us of communion by baptism and accord in the truth which extendeth to al churches in the world and to Saincts that ar not gathered and constituted into any particular church We speak of a church with power to receiv in and cast out though it have no officers they touch not this point unless they closely grant us the question to the overthrow of their opinion For if they yeild such power and practise to be a lawful thing in the communion of al such as ar baptised or doo accord in the truth they refute themselves if not al men may see how they seek to divert from the matter in hand 2. Secondly by their baptism they mean not onely the true baptisme in Christs church but the false baptisme in Antichrists as the article expresseth and after we ar to scan which if it be according to the scriptures which they cite the one baptisme that by one spirit baptiseth al into one body then are they returned into the cōmmunion and body of Antichrists synagogue if the church of Rome be it are bound to communicate even with Friers and Iesuites in any thing lawful as God giveth occasion and that is I suppose to hear them when they preach nothing but the truth or to pray with them when they in spirit pray to God in Christ c. I would be loth to wrong them their own words lead me to this if I gather amyss let them pardon me shew their meaning plainly for he that dooth truth cōmeth to the light 3. Thirdly without baptisme there may be a Church entred into covenant with God one with an other as all Israel passed into the covenant renued by Moses when al the men under 40. yeres old were uncirsed besides al the women 3. They thirdly say it is playn and undenyable that to chuse or give voices in election is not a part of goverment c. but an interest power right and libertie that the Saincts out of office have and should use c. I answer 1. First this is playn and undenyable so long as it pleaseth them not to deny it but if they change their mind in this point to morow as they have doon in the former about the peoples power to excōmunicate then we shal hear as we did before wher find we in the scriptures that God hath thus layd on the people without officers to make electiō where is the precept for it which be the examples of it c. They tel us it is playn but not one scripture is brought to shew it yet is it needful seing they know the Papists and other Prelates deny such elections without officers The Prelates wil shew them sundry examples wher it was doon by the counsel direction and government of officers as Act. 1.15.21 22. 6.2 3. 14 23 1. Tim. 3 1. 14.15 Tit. 1.5 but not one place where a people without officers attempted such a work Wherefore wee wish our opposites not to deal so slenderly as to tel men it is playn and undeniable so to leav it for we make no doubt but the sound proof of this point wil disproov their former errour 2. Secondly we have upon their bare word that to give voices in election of officers is no part of government we pray them in their next to shew whether then to give voices for deposition of unworthy officers be a part of government as also how they prove that to give voices for the reciving in and putting out of members in the Church is a part of government more than the other 3. Thirdly the reader may observ their covert cariage of this point whiles they speak but of giving voices in election but what say they about giving power of administration to the ministers who must doo that or how had these men that but by the people And if the people have power in the name of Christ to say to the elected Pastor Take thou authority to preach the word c. or in any other terms to give him pastoral office which had none before I hope they wil not deny but if that Pastor afterward proov a Wolf the same people may put him out of al his pastoral office and if they have that power why also may they not put him quite out of the fold and Church by the power of Christ that is excommunicate him And if it be not lawful for a people to give authority of Ministerie unto a man how then do these administer which renounced some of them their former office and preisthood given by the Prelates and as private men received a nue caling and ordination others from private estate were constituted Elders by the people Is this Ministerie now from heaven or from men 4. Lastly they say seing their doctrine overthroweth not the constitution of the Church of Jsrael nor of the primitive Churches it cannot therfore overthrow the constitution of their church or of any that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets c. I answer this in
be one in substance concerning faith in Christ unto salvation Hâ—b 11. sheweth also great differences between their condition and ours touching the clear manifestation of Gods grace and the outward politie of the Church Heb. 9. 10. 12. Gal. 4. Finally these things we never intended or extended to any further rights or liberties of the people now then we find evidently taught us by the doctrine and practise of th'Apostles that if in any thing we miss as easily we may in the application of those legal types yet the doctrine confirmed by other playn scriptures remayneth sound and good And such differences between Israel and us we also have put in our more ancient writings Discover pag. 40. 60. Their last note is in effect one with the first shewing how Christ and th'Apostles reasoned wel from the civil state of Israel which we grant Yet I hope they wil not deny but it is possible for other men to reason amyss and to make yll proportions from the common wealth of Israel as doo the Papists and as before is manifested that these our opposites have doon The 7. article 7. We held that the baptism of Rome was as true baptisme as circuÌ„cision in the Apostasie of Israel was true circumcision and needed not to be renounced and repeted Now we were taught that the baptism aforesayd is an Idol and we know al Idols c are to be renounced and rejected Isa. 30.22 and an Idol is nothing in the world 1. Cor. 8.4 so then such baptism is nothing I answer our former profession and writing hath been that circumcision in the Apostasie of Israel could be no true sacrament no true seal of the covenant of Gods favour unto them also that baptism delivered in the false church is no true seal of Gods covenant or true sacrament Mr. Iohnson himself hath defended this very same that in that estate of their Apostasie it could not be a true Sacrament and so for the baptism in Rome not a true but a false sacrament So the contrarietie must be thus heretofore we held it to be a false sacrament but now we were taught it is an Jdol Between these I hope al men of judgment which know what an Jdol meaneth wil think ther is no contradiction But is not this good conveyance for them to say as true baptism as circumcision in the Apostasie of Jsrael was true circumcision wheras we professed of that baptisme as also of that circumcision that it could not be a true sacrament unto them but a false Wil not the judicious reader see that they cast a myst before mens eyes to disgrace the truth which themselves formerly professed As for the consequences I have before answered them and shewed how though the Idol be put away ther need no repeting again of the outward washing and have proved that Antichrist hath turned the Lords baptisme into an Idol as the Iewes did the brazen serpeÌ„t by burning incense to it and that the most conscionable in our own nation have so professed and the Vniversitie of Cambridge printed that the church of Rome transformeth the sacraments yea even Christ and God himself into Jdols But these our opposites are gone from the truth and from themselves herein into the tents of our common adversaries M. Gifford and others who would have concluded hereupon a new outward washing but were refuted by Mr Barrow And Mr Iohnson once professed that he thought he should never have seen any more absurd writing then M. Giffards though now he reasoneth like him He also told the Oxford Doctors that to hold the popish church to be a true church having a true ministerie and true sacraments or els that they are unbaptised and must admitt of the Anabaptists rebaptisation are nought els but gross errours and notorious absurdities Yet loe how he now presseth us with the same things and passeth over our reasons rendred heretofore without answering them as is meet Of the conditions of peace by our Opposites refused and broken HItherto wee have heard the particulars wherin they are gone from their former profession again the articles which they have insinuated against us Now foloweth the peace which notwithstanding the former things wee desired to reteyn with them The first 1. Before our parting we offred that notwithstanding our differences of judgmeÌ„t we would continue togither if our former practise might be reteyned but this was refused Their answer hereto is Which is as if they should say they would have continued with vs if wee would have continued in errour and evil so found and acknowledged by us suffering the ordinance of God touching the Eldership to be troden under foot the Elders to be despised and abused by the people and the whole Church to be continually subiect to contentions and scandals Our reply Here first observe how they can not deny but thus we offred them and yet they would bear the world in hand we left them for their understanding and exposition of Mat. 18 17. They might have kept their vnderstanding both of that and other scriptures if the Churches practise had not been altered Secondly how doo their people yet bear themselves others in hand that their practise is not changed but all things continue with them in that respect as before Eyther their Elders dissemble with them or they with others according to the Philosophers doctrine that in such changes it behooveth men to feighn and counterfeyt the contrary Thirdly the answer is evil injurious to the truth people of God for his ordinance touching the Eldership is not troden vnder foot the Elders despised c. by the holy order of the Church judging synners as the Apostle teacheth and governed in all actions by the officers which was our former practise These are but contumelies such as Papists and lovers of Prelacie have layd upon the saynts heretofore and upon such pretenses have excluded the people from choosing their ministers for avoyding such tumults and uprores as the primitive Church they say was afflicted with Fourthly what if some persons have miscaried themseves as can not be denyed have not some of the Elders also doon the like And shall the Church because of the abuses tyrannies heresies which their Elders have in all ages brought in refuse to have any moe Elders no more may the Elders refuse to have the people to hear and judge causes of publick syn with them because of the disorder and unrulynes of some whom the people have been as willing to reprove and censure as the Elders themselves As for the Church subject continually to contentions and scandals c. it is most true by the Elders means for to let pass what we have seen among our selves let all histories be looked it wil appear the Church hath never more abounded with contentions and scandals then when al power was in the Ministers hands and the people excluded Yea