further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
thus in deed you do still shew your brasen forhead and seared conscience Towching Corah Dathan Abiram c. besides that I have aunswered to your Reply in the Second exception Pag. 53. I have also purposely in many particulars compared their case and yours together in the Sixt Reason Pag. 130. Which if you can you may refute in your next or by silence give place to the truth Where I proved by sundry other Scriptures compared with this to Timothy Pag. 139. 140 that the Romish harlot and her children are here properly and specially deciphered you aunswer not one word vnto it Nay you are so turned out of all your shifts as even now when you would shift it of to Martion and Tacianus you giue more evidēce that it resteth on your owne heads rather then on theirs And this I prove by comparing together your saying here with the Apostles there You say here that Martion and Tatianus did Fundamentally fall from the faith because they simply forbad those good ordinances of God Mariage and meats even against the light of conscience and nature presumptuously quenching the instinct thereof Now if this were so Mr Iacob then by your owne saying they did not speak falsehood in hypocrisy but in open and presumptuous blasphemie Whereas the Apostle noteth such expresselie as speak lyes in hypocrisy 1 Tim. 4.2.3 And such in very deed I proved your case and the Papists to be in my former aunswer Pag. 137. c. Against which you can bring nothing at all Yet you blush not to say you passe by my puestions and demaunds about the Papists and their errors as more vayne then pertinent Whereas in deed the truth is that the questions and reasons do so nearly concerne both the Papists and your selves as you dare not medle with them Otherwise if you could you should at least not onely have said but some way proued them to be vaine But this labour it may be your reserve to your next Reply If so then examine them in particular and shew the vanity of them from point to point Els know they are so pertinēt as here againe you are brought to a playne Non plus And because in my former aunswer I did but brieflie towch that point of your speaking lyes through hypocrisy I will for further evidence of this Scripture against you mention here some few particulars mo 1. It cannot be denyed but you worship God by a Service book taken out of the Popes portuis and by many other the inventions af men Yet you pretend that you worship God in spirit and truth according to his word A lye in hypocrisy 2. Your Churches Ministers and people stand subiect to other Archbishops and Lordbishops then Iesus Christ and to their Courts Canons Excommunications c. Yet you beare men in hād that you receive Christ only as Lord and King of the Church and obey his Lawes and ordinances Another lye in hypocrisy 3. Your Hierarchy and whole Ministery from the highest Archbishop to the lowest Priest is Antichristian in you offices entrance administration maintenance Yet who knoweth not that in all these you perswade the world you are the Ministers of Iesus Christ Falsehood in hypocrisy 4. You still banish and imprison vs because we separate from your Antichristian estate and endevour to keep the faith and ordinance of Christ Yet you give out that we suffer more then we need that we are iustlie punished as ennemyes to the State as Schismaticks Hereticks seditious c. Another lye in hypocrisy 5. Finallie even the truths which you teach and professe what are they els in your estate but the sheeps clothing of your wolvish Hierarchy and Priesthood by meanes whereof you deceive and devoure the more Lo here a tast of your speaking lyes in hypocrisy and if you will also of your consciences burnt vvith an hote yron Besides these in your Church note also in your self in particular how even here you do sclaunder me and yet pretend that it is I which sclaunder you Neither sufficeth it you in this one place to do it once as I shewed before Pag. 149. But here againe you will needs double it that we might the better note this propertie in your self which yet you shame not falsely to lay vpon me And because you will not seem to want colour for it you pretend this that I say the words of your first Reply imported such onely to depart from the faith as fall from it totally To depart from the faith I say so as in that estate they cannot by the word of God be estemed true Christians Reason 7. Pag. 135. For this was the point which I proved and you denyed Now towching this matter the case is so verie plaine as I neither need nor will do anie more for your conviction therein but set downe your owne words as they were at first and then with a note concerning your dealing synce leave the iudgement thereof to the Reader when he shall have compared together the words of your Reply and of my Aunsvver Neither of which you love to keep vnto For your words then thus it was When against your Church I had proved by the Apostles testimonie that forasmuch as all such depart from the faith as forbid Mariage and Meats therefore also your Church so doth vvhich not only forbiddeth these things the true Ministery vvorship of God vvithall but also commaundeth a false c. You did then answer thus word for word The Popish forbidding of Mariage and of Meats if they vvere no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy ceremonies simply Neither do they make vs the Protestans to be such The Papists fall from Christ in other points namely The Papall supremacy c. These were your words then The other clauses which now you have annexed in the Margent and Reply it self though they help you no whit neither yet were they added synce you receyved my Answer as I noted before Pag. 141. Let the Reader mynd this And withall these two things 1. That now you note in the margent both “ here and in the Eight Reason following Pag. 136. that you think the vvord fundamentally fitter to be here vsed then the word totally And why fitter I pray you but because this word totally implyeth that directlie which I inferred therevpon in my Answer Pag. 136. c. 2. That whereas you did at first annexe a clause concerning the Apostles meaning that in these points they depart from the faith not absolutly and vvholy this also is so far from helping you as it maketh altogether against you howsoever you would perswade otherwise in this your latter Reply both in the beginning and end thereof Pag. 141. 142. Which will yet more fully appeare even to the most simple whensoever you shall answer the particular questiōs and obiectiōs which I propounded in my former Answer concerning the Papists and your selves For which
to account it among the mercyes of God towards vs that our difference in judgement is but such specially considering that there is so great a mostery of iniquity in the religion of Antichrist throughout al the parts thereof as iff it were possible the very elect should be deceived that we are as it were but newly and as per weakly come out of that spirituall Babylon that the particulars here obiected were never publikly debated and disenssed among vs that as the Primitive Churches so ours have ben exercised not onely with many other questions and controversyes but with sundry perverse hypocriticall contentious and fantasticall spirits which have much troubled vs and caused the truth to be evill spoken of they creeâ—ing in at first vnder a show of Holones and so for a tyme continewing vntill God by one meanes or other discovered them and in his tyme cast them out from among vs finally that than the best on earth know here but in part 1 Cor. 13.9.12 and therefore no marvell if discerning but according to the measure we have receyved and this measure bring divers in every one our judgements many tymes and in sundry things differ vntill God reveale more and further Besides that even by this meanes we might learne to beare one with another and if any will yet be contentious that they might know we have no such custome nor the Churches of God The vse then that we are to make of such difference of judgement is not that we should therefore abide in knowen errors our selves or approve knowen evill in others or joyne with any false worship and Ministery in the service of God or refuse any truth revealed vnto vs wherein we do all agree in one but that being delivered out of the power of darknes which is in the Kingdome of Sathan and Antichrist we should walk together as children of the light holding forth the truth wherevnto we are come joyntly and faithfully agaynst all adversaryes thereof and wayting with pacyence till God reveale further for the more vniting of our mynds wherein any shall yet differ one from another And this doth the Scripture teach aÌ„d warrant vnto vs Phil. 3.15.16 Rom. 14.5.6 But now if any erring in theyr judgement do not so rest in peace but will needs proceed further to spread theyr difference among the brethren to vrge and pursue the practise thereoff to disquyet the rest that are contrary mynded to refuse communion with the Church vnles they would ioyne or consent vnto them therein then are such being first convinced and remayning obstinate to be further proceded withall by the Church as the case and theyr cariage shall requier And that so as if any be found but to be contentious they are euen therefore to be reproved and if they cease not to be cast out and removed from the Church For which see 1 Cor. 11.16 Gal. 5.12 Math. 18.17 Rom. 2.8 Iam. 3 13-18 Thus we are perswaded and thus we walk and practise Now let the Reader iudge how frivolous this his obiection is seing there may be sundry things wherein the brethren of the same Church may differ in iudgement among themselves and yet notwithstanding walk togeather in the same faith testimony and fellowship wherein God hath vnited theyr mynds none of them being contentious to disquyet the Church or the members thereof and all being ready to receyve the truth which God by his word shall further make knowen whatsoever it be And this I dare boldly say that whosoever shall not thus hold and walk they shall not onely condemne the Apostles and Primitive Churches together with the Martyrs whose examples I alledged before but shall fynd by experience that neyther any Churches neyther so much as two or three men shall ever be able to keep fellowship any while together among themselves Note also that when such please themselves most in theyr contentions and confusions thinking they do God service therein even then they do most displease him who is the God not of confusion but of peace as we see in all the Churches of the Saints 1 Cor. 14.33 This I thought needfull to write being thus occasioned concerning this poynt I could also put him in mynd of the manifold and vnreconciliable difference of iudgement which is in theyr Church and the members thereof between the Prelates Reformists Newters and Ambo-dexters with the like But I will not stand vpon it Mynd but here what Mr Iacob professeth openly in the Treatise following Pag. 69. viz. that the things vvhich the State of theyr Church holdeth to be Christs ovvne he holdeth to be Antichrists Then which what can be more contrary Will they now therefore affoard that favour to the Papists Anabaptists and other Antichristians which they would should be affoarded to themselves namely That as they would be accounted true Christians through theyr faith in Christ notwithstanding theyr errours which they must acknowledge are infinite many euen in theyr Church-constitution so they should account of the aforesaid Antichrists and others in the like case Or will he now say that euen common sence and humanity vvould requier them to graunt this When he is at leysure to write such an other Preface in defence of Mr Iacob and himself as he hath done this in defence of theyr Churches then it will be tyme ynough to impresse this thing a litle better in theyr mynds In the meane tyme this may suffice to shew how senceles and vnreasonable theyr reasoning and dealing is By the marks of the Beast spoken of Reu. 14. we vnderstand the defection and constitutions of the man of sinne spoken of 2 Thes 2 3-12 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 And that for these causes 1. Because these Scriptures speak of one and the same estate aÌ„d apostasy of Antichrist 2. Because the Beasts marks are in “ Rev. 14.9.12 this place of the Revelation directly opposed to the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus So that as Gods commaundements for his people so the ordinances of Antichrist also for his are as signes and marks by which such as receyve or refuse them may we ll be discerned and knowen Exod. 13.7.9.10.12.16 and Deut. 11.18 vvith Rev. 14.9.12 3. Because the Apostle to Timothy nameth in particular the forbidding of meats and Mariage which are part of Antichrists constitutions as vndoubted marks of that departure from the faith 1. Tim. 4.1.3 4. Because the many particulars concerning the apostasy of the Man of sinne mentioned in the Epistle to the Thessalonians are such as are both opposed to the ordinance of Christ and evident marks of the defection and body of Antichrist 2. Thes 2 3-12 Towching which and other Scriptures viz. 1. Ioh. 4.1.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 7.9.10 Dan. 7.8.25 Rev. 13.11 describing also the marks of the Beast Antichrist I have written in * A treatise of the Min. of the Char. of Engl. Pag. 7. 12. 26. c. another Treatise more purposely which may there be seen Here I will onely
the truth of God is with them become Yea and Nay so as they may seem to say any thing for defence of theyr Churches estate 5. And from whence proveth he that which here he speaketh of tvvo hy Priests at once c. Doth he shew it from the word of God No. But he saith the Historyes make mention of it So then from the Scriptures he can not bring proof for that he saith For indeed by them we fynd euen in the corruptest tymes but one at once to be by Priest Albeit that of old also there were two which were chief over all the rest the one being principall the other Second See for that of one hy Priest in such tymes these Scriptures Mat. 26.57.62.63.65 Mar. 14.53.60.61.63 Luk. 22.50.54 Ioh. 11.49 18.13.24 Act. 4.6 7.1 23.2 Heb. 5.1 8.3.4.5 And for the other poynt these 2 King 25.18 1 Chron. 24.2.3 2 Sam. 8.17 vvith Numb 3.32 4.16.18 Yea this is so cleare and certayne as for any thing written in the Scripture thereahout this man is driven himself when he looketh thither to confesse and confirme it too As here may be seen in Scriptures which himself hath noted downe 6. Why also doth he not name the Histories that mention these things together with the Persons time place and such like circumstances as might give light to the poynt in hand Is it because he would walk in the dark and hide the truth as much as he can Or is it for that he seeth if these particulars were mentioned there might yet more be answered concerning this matter 7. Finally what maner dealing is this when he knoweth that I have other were written of this very poynt yea and here alledgeth both the ♣ Ansvver to Mr H. Pa. 50 book and page yet not to aunswer any one of all the particulars which there I haue noted out of the Scripture towching this question To that Treatise therefore till it be aunswered â— may and do refer him in this behalf Next where he saith If the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through covetousnes it is not likely that the inferior offices remayned sound c. And It is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution vvere vvholy altered from the right institution c. First I wish the Reader to mynd his maner of reasoning A litle before he sayd he doubted not plainely to take avvay that vvhich vve obiect of theyr outvvard constitution Yet behold the yssue of his first and chiefest proof is all come to this It is not othervvise likely It is very likely c. Thus his playne demonstration if it fitted his turne yet is no other but a meer likelyhood and presumption And that also gathered from other writers not from the Scriptures Is not this theÌ„ think you as playne a taking away of our obiection as it is a sound defence of theyr Church-constitution Neyther barrell better herring But what now if by the Scriptures it be not onely likely but indeed certayne that it was otherwise with the Iewes then here he saith concerning theyr offices and outvvard constitution How hath he then plainely taken away our objection as he pretended Let him search therefore and he shall fynd that they were so farre from admitting any straung functions among them as they * Iohn 1 19-23 vrged Iohn the Baptist to shew warrant for his Ministery from the word of God And besides by theyr silence to Christs question about Iohns baptisme do plainely testify that ‡ Mat. 21.25 26. themselves judged no Ministery lawfull but that which is from heaven that is such onely as is of God not of Men. If here now we would vse his manner of reasoning how great likelyhoods might we justly alledge from these Scriptures to the contrary of that he sayth But to put the matter out of all doubt the Scripture witnesseth of Zachary Iohn Baptists father that he being then one of the Priests executed the Priests office and vvalked in in all the commandements ordinances of the Lord vvithout reproof Luk. 1.5.6.8.9 Which how could it possibly have ben if the offices and constitution of that Church had ben wholy altered as this man here pretendeth Note also that all the Priests then were of the tribe of Levi of the posterity of Aaron consecrated to their functions sitting in that seat which God by Moses had appointed for the Ministery and regiment of that Church Ioh. 1.19 Act. 4.6 Heb. 5.1.4 Mat. 23.2 vvith Deut. 33.4.8.10 Finally Christ himself giveth testimony to the lawfulnes of their Ministery and constitution when he said to the clensed Leper Go shevv thy self to the Priest and offer for thy clensing as Moses hath commaunded Luk. 5.14 By which is most playne that they had at that tyme both the true Ministery and ordinances which God by Moses had appoynted How false then must it needs be that this man saith their offices and outvvard constitution vveâ—e vvholy altered from the right institution But who is so bold aâ— blynd Bayard Of their true offices imported by sitting in Moses chayre I have * A treatise of the Man of England Pag. 54. 55. els where spoken and proved it by divers reasons and testimonyes out of the word of God To which D. B. can fynd no aunswer but yet is loth to yeeld to the truth Moses he sayth vvas a Magistrate What then Therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstood of somevvhat els But why so Doth he not know that Moses in that his governement of Israel even by the commaundement of God appoynted Aaron and his sonnes to the Priests office for the burning of incense before the Lord c. Wherevppon also when Corah and his company did afterward murmure aÌ„d presumed to take the Priests Office vpon them it is sayd they rose vp and gathered themselves together not onely against Aaron to whom it belonged but agaynst Moses also who from God had appoynted him and his sonnes therevnto Lev. 8. 9. chap. vvith Numb 16. 17. 18. chap. Note withall that Moses a litle before his death blessing the tribes of Israel when he had the heads of them assembled together spake thus of Levi turning his speach vnto God Let thy Thummim and thyne vrim be vvith thyne Holy one c. They shall teach Iacob thy judgements and Israel thy Lavv they shal put incense before thy face and the burnt offring vpon thyne altar c. Deut. 33.4.5.8.9.10.11 With which Scripture and speach of Moses if we compare that of Nehemiah where he speaketh of ♣ Neh. 9.3.4.5 c. the Levites stayre or hy seat and theyr standing vpon it vvhen they taught the Lavv c. And that of Christ where he sayd * Mat. 23.2.3 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chayre observe therefore vvhatsoever they speak c. And that of Iohn where he sayth ‡ Ioh. 1.19.24 the Pharisees vvich vvere sent to Iohn Baptist about his Ministery vvere Priests
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
the dead to make reconciliation for them thereby spoken of in the book of Machabees And according to your second sence of fundamentall that ‡ 2 Machab. 14.41.42 commending of vvilfull murther taught in the same book of Machabees Not to speak of the Magick in the “ Iob. 6.6 book of To bit for healing any that is troubled with a Divell or evill spirit by a perfume made of a fishes heart and liuer These sweet doctrines with other the like do those books affoord But it skils not so long as with a bold face notwithstanding you can beare it out and say still your errors are not fundamentall c. Is this your conscience Mr. Iacob Will you thus still plead for Baall But to proceed in the third place you speak of those words according to Christs ordinance Where first marke that these words in your Article are to be referred to all the particulars going before So as to maintaine your Argument you must proue your Assemblies to be so gathered the pure vvord so preached anh the Sacraments so administred among you as Christ hath ordeined Thus might you more perswade vs and defend your selues better in one half sheet of paper then in a thousand such frivolous pamphlets as you sparse abroad to no purpose at all except it be to lay open your owne nakednes so much the more Whereas I alledged that vvhen and vvhere the vvorde is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ this you say is false too Often have I heard you say so but never could I heare you proue it To help you therefore I will show you the way how to doe it if any such thing could be And that is thus first syncerely as before God to reckon vp all the offices of Ministery which your Church by Law enjoyeth and then to note the Scriptures which teach that Christ ordained those offices in his Church secondly to show the manner of entrance into your severall offices prescribed by Law and then to name the places of Scripture where such calling is appointed by Christ This you see is a plaine and ready way touching these two points to stablish the conscience and to confound your adversaries not with show of words but with substance of matter I hope it will do you some pleasure Mr. Iacob that I haue showed you so good a way All the thanks I aske for it is that you would walk vprightly in it Now if you list not take the paines or find the way all to hard for your Archbs Lordbs Archdeacons Parsons Vicars Stipendaries and the rest of your Priests and Deacons yet at least for your self show it in defence of your owne office and calling first when you were made Priest and Deacō by the Prelates and thē when you became an House-Priest in the countrey and since a Mercenary-Priest in the citty Now I heare your Lords the Prelates haue commaunded you silence and you as an obedient childe of such reverend Fathers do readily submit to their Antichristian authority Yet let this be no excuse to put of the clearing of the former matter but seeing you haue so much the more leasure do it the more soundly and speedily Doubtles it would give great light in this case Next you say your ordinarie Preachers are true Pastors as touching the substance of Pastorall calling but whom meane you by ordinary Preachers c. Your Prelates I remember are by Law your Ordinaries Doe you meane it of them your treatise shewes it not Tell vs then who they be of whom you speak 1. whether all or some onely of your Preachers 2. whether you have any extraordinarie Preachers that have some other office 3. what you judge of those that are not in the number of the ordinary Preachers you speak of whether they also be true Pastors 4. what you account according to the Scripture the substance of the Pastorall calling whereof you speak All these points you see must be cleared afore we can vnderstand what you speak or whereof you affirme So mysticall or rather in deed so fearefull and deceitfull is your manner of speach Touching the question what is substantiall in the Ministery if you put it over to me to declare as your manner is I have already showed my judgment and reasons in †A treatise of the Minist of the Churches of Engl. p. 83. 84. 85. another treatise Which you may either refute or approue your Ministery according to those particulars or if you can do neither of these yeeld to the truth against which you have so long strugled in vaine In vaine I say for proof whereof marke what followeth next in your Reply Your self confesse that even the Preachers for whome you plead have a wrong ordination from the Prelacy Thus your owne mouth M. Iacob is witnes against your self that al your labour is in vaine Shall I yet make it more plaine vnto you Marke then Your maine defence is from ‡ See before pag 3. and 6. the doctrine of your Church as it is publiquely professed and practised by Lavv. Now your Law admitteth no other ordination but that of the Prelacy And this your self here confesse is vvrong In what case now your Ministery standeth let others judge And take you heed you please not your self any longer in such vnrighteousnes The “ 2 The. 2.12 end thereof is fearefull But besides this estate of your Ministery you confesse here also for the body of your Church that you have a confusion of people that is in deed though you speak it not in word a spirituall Babylon For Babel is in English confusion Thus both for Ministery and people you give the cause having wearied your self in the defence of Babylon all in vaine Which is and will be the fruit of your and all other mens labours in this case So the * Ier. 51.58.64 Scripture hath foretold Your other writing ‡ See the next treatise follovving at the end of this touching the comparing of the condition of a Ministery vvith Mariage long since deliuered was also long since aunswered Vnto which I have not yet received any Reply not so much as words which is the most I look for from you at any time Where next you graunt it is Christs ordinance to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people hold you there M. Iacob and you overthrow at once all your Churches and Ministery For you neither have proued neither ever will that so you have Begging of the question though you vse it never so often is nothing but words not any proof at all After this you come to that clause of your Article which requireth due administration of the Sacraments according to Christs ordinance First mynd that divers other particulars were related wherein you faile besides those you have here mentioned See them in my ‡ Before Pag 15. 16. 17. former aunswer Now if the corruptions of the
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
before But now because you bid me speak out what difference I put between your Churches and the Martyrs as also between you and my self holding these things of late with you hearken and I will tell you againe First for the Martyrs in former times mark these differences Differences betvveene the Martirs and Church of Engl. 1. Greater light of the truth is now come into the world then was in those daies but you loue darkenes rather then light For still you walk in darknes Ioh. 3.19 Ephes 5.11 2. They witnessed against the abominations of Antichrist then called in question to the losse of their libertie and lives Your Church doth not so against the remnants of Poperie now cōtroverted but do either openly defend them or fearefully submit vnto them 3. They consisted not of swarmes of Atheists adulterers drunkards and all sorts of people good and bad even knowen wicked ones mixed together in one body as your Church doth 4. Such of them as were Ministers were degraded from their Antichristian functions so are not yours 5. They died not members of Antichrists Church nor for any error they held but for the truth You stil remaine members of Antichistian Churches both withstanding the truth and maintaining errors 6. They were and died members of a true visible Church viz that persecuted Church in Queen Maries daies which was separated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary submission therevnto though in that time of ignorance they had their wants and errors You continew members of a false constituted Church vnseparated from the world yeelding subiection to Antichristian enormityes against the ordinances of Iesus Christ 7. They refused not the truth offred neyther resisted those that did iustly reprove theyr errors but your Church doth both as appeareth by your continuall practise and by the books and Acts of Parliament made openly and with authority against vs for witnessing the truth 8. Your Prelats Priests and people that is your Churches in your estate are no Martyrs but children of them which killed the Martyrs and do at this day fill vp the measure of your forefathers persecuting to death such as haue the testimony of Iesus This did not the Martyrs Are not you then the men that white the toombes of the Martyrs which were in former tymes and yet your selves imprison banish and kill the witnesses of Iesus that are among you at this day Take heed you hearden not your hearts but tremble at your fearefull estate and please not your selues in vnrighteousnes by the error of any neither blesse your selves still in iniquitie Hitherto of the difference between the Martyrs and your Churches Now for my self I confesse as I did * Pag. 8. before of the Martyrs that whiles I was Minister and member of your Church in that constitution I stood in Antichristian estate Yet doubt I not but euen then being of the elect of God I was partaker through faith of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation And this I hope is the case of divers among you But for my self I haue now the more assurance in that God hath both drawen me out of that Antichristian estate giuing me to see and to forsake it and hath planted me in his true Church and household giuing me to receiue his truth in much affliction with ioy of the holy Ghost 1 Thes 1.6 But as for you in your estate besides that yet you are not members of any true visible Church you do moreover abide in grosse confusion false Ministery Antichristian worship and other abominations by the word of God already discovered Now whiles you thus remaine you cannot in that estate approve your selves to have the promise of saluation whereof by the word of God you can be assured vntill you depart out †Rev. 18.4.5 Act. 2.40.47 Micah 2.10 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Ephe. 2.12.19 of that Babylō and save your selues from that froward generatiō being also by the Lord added to his true Church Which mercy I hope God daily doth and will vouchsafe many among you belonging to his election Thus you see how notwithstanding any thing we eyther do or can acknowledge touching the Martyrs or ourselves heretofore yet still we affirme and prove your estate to be Antichristiā So far are we frō graunting your Assumption as here you fancy with your self Your vaine questions Whether your whole assemblyes all and every of your assemblyes erre of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience whether we know the heart and conscience of men c. How fond and friuolous are they All of you erre by your owne graunt Whether any of you do it with a convicted conscience let God iudge who knoweth the heart Your self it seemeth deny not this to be the case of some among you Howsoever seeing you confesse that you erre why do you and the rest being so perswaded stil abide in error Is it because you †Ioh. 3.19 love darknes more then light Or because ‡ Act. 28.26 27. when you see yet you wink with your eyes least you should convert to the Lord and be healed If you would not leaue such as you imagine see it not how wil you ever know whether they that refuse do see it or not And why have you not al this time made it knowen to them and donne what lyeth in you to draw them from error Or having done it and finding them obstinate in evill yea persecuters of the truth revealed why have you not after the ‡ Act. 2.40.41 13.45.46.51 18.6 and 19.9 28.24 c. example of the Apostles separated from such and taught others to do the like Above all why plead you for their estate to be good warrantable in the way of salvation notwithstanding their errors and abominations Is not this to dawbe with vntempered morter Is it not to prophesie peace to the wicked and to promise them life to sow pillowes vnder their elbowes and to strengthen their hands in evill that they should not returne from their wicked way Ier. 23.16.17 Ezech. 13. Chap. Mal. 2.17 Where you say if we knew some convicted in conscience yet it serueth not our turne vnles all be so conuicted sure you mind not what you speak Did Christ ever give such a rule to his Church Or should there ever be Church separated from the world if this course were kept Besides what meane you by all being convicted Whether all in a house or all in a towne or all in a kingdome or all in the world Whether all of echser men and women of all ages yong and old of all estates hy and low rich and poore bond and free c. What also by being convicted Whether when sufficient is showed to convince men though they see it not or when they see it yet acknowledg it not or when they see and acknowledg it yet notwithstanding persist in their former estate or if vnto all these
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
2.14.15.16 Rev. 2.9 Another vntruth is that you say the sinne of your Bishops now is no greater then of the auncyent declining Bishops and them in K. Edwards tyme Whereas many wayes it is incomparably greater as I have shewed before Pag. 40. 41. 129. 133. 148. 162. 175. 177. 183. 203. Another is in that you say your sinne is no way fundamental The contrarie whereof see proved before Pag. 22. 73. 114. 147. And another when you charge me as if I held all among you to be godles and profane when I have alway thought and professed otherwise Yea even here I said your Church coÌ„sisteth of all sorts that is both good and bad better and worse some making coÌ„scieÌ„ce of their wayes according to the knowledg they have some not c. For which also see further before Pag. 7. 20. 21. 41. 78. 103. 168. 178. Finallie it is â—either vntrue also when you say this poynt towching the Hierarchy is not acknowledged in your Church even of ignorance in a thousaÌ„d to one Or if it be true it is a shame for you and all the Ministers of your Church who have not in this cleare light of the Gospell by the space of fourty yeares together made knowen vnto the people so great a point of Antichristianity as the Hierarchy is Which is the verie sinewes and strength of the Popes Religion As I feare wofull experience will teach you further if yet you do not see and feel it ynough But of this also I have spoken before in the Preface Section 6. Lo here the ornaments of your Reply and Defence of your estate The very naming whereof is sufficient to shew your folly and your Churches miscrie Yet least you should please your self in this course as also for the satisfying of such as desier further handling of these things I have spoken of them before more particularly As namely of sinnes fundamentall Pag. 22. 32. 44. 46. 51. 73. 114. 147. Of the Scriptures which here you alledge in the margent Pag. 51. and in the Preface Section 3. Of the Iewes Church Pag. 84. 161. 195. 197. in the Preface Section 5. Of the auncient Bishops Pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of them in K. Edwards dayes Mr Cranmer c. Pag. 8. 40. 41. 48. 49. 67. 77. 162. 182. Of your Churches estate and conviction Pag. 3. 7. 16. 27. 33. 42. 43. 53. 60. 61. 63 73. 78. 82. 94. 101. 103. 108. 120. 130. 131. 132. 135. 147. 155. 157. 171. 180. 188 194. 196. 200. c. Your caution against rash hasty iudging of any is very good and needfull We do together with you exhort all to beware of such dealing and to take heed they †iudge righteous iudgement as Christ hath commauÌ„ded And therefore that they be careful to search out and help forward the iudgment Ioh. 7.24 given by the Apostles and Prophets on the Whore of Babylon and all her Daughters Rev. 18.20.21 and 17.1.5.6.7 with Ier. 51 61-64 Neither let any think that this is to curse where God blesseth or to lay an hindrance and stumbling block before any but that it is in deed to reward Babylon as she hath rewarded vs and to beare witnes to the truth and syncerity of the Gospell Rev. 18.6 14.6.7.8 2 Thes 2.8 that it may the more be brought to light and received of the elect to eternall life To such we know Christ with all his ordinances is precious but in deed to them which be disobedient he is a stone to stumble at and a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient to the which thing they were also ordeined 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Take heed therefore you blesse not your selves in your disobedience of anie truth of Christ promising your selves peace though you walk according to the stubbernes of your owne hearts so adding drunkenes vnto thirst For such blessing God hath threatned to curse Deut. 29.19.20 Zach. 11.5.6 Malach. 2.2 For our selves we judge not any man It is the word of God that iudgeth which shall also judge in the last day Ioh. 12.48 By it therefore let every man trie and examine his wayes of what place or calling soever he be first for the worship he performeth vnto God and then for all the other actions of his life that he may so please God in this life as he may in the next be partaker of the glorie that shal be revealed Neither let anie be daunted with the reproches and afflictioÌ„s which accompanie the truth and witnesses thereof Even Christ himself the Prince of our salvation was consecrate through afflictions and he hath promised if we suffer with him we shall also raigne with him Heb. 2.10 Rev. 2.10 Rom. 8.17.18 2 Tim. 2.12 Therefore also we say with the Prophet as you do here and wish it might sound in the eares of all men as a trumpet Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely of the poore even of him that is despised c. Psal 41.1 To conclude your one word whereof you told vs a litle before is now become two words and all litle ynough For if your reason be good all me your self if a man might not after your example in two words conclude the Papists also to be true Christians thus That faith and religion taught in the Creeds commonly attributed to the Apostles the Nicene Councell Athanasius c. maketh the people that beleev and obey the same true Christians such as so living and dying may be saved But the Popish Church doth so hold that faith Therefore they are true Christians c. If your reason be good what will you say to this If you say they professe in word but do in deed both in their Church-constitutioÌ„ and practise denie it such also is your case Besides that the question is not whether anie among you may be saved by the truth you hold For we doubt not but eveÌ„ in the Popish Church God saveth his by the truth there held But the question is whether you or they can in your estate and Church-constitution be deemed by the word of God true Christians or true Churches such as none may separate from your worship and Ministery established among you And here I can tell you that even some of your selves have acknowledged and openly avowched your Churches case to be such Demonstration in the Preface as “ a man may be any thing among you but a sound Christian Yet I suppose you will not say they were desperate for saying so And if I be not deceived your self also have ben like mynded with them heretofore Sure I am you had need cleare these things very well and in anie case take heed you become not desperate therein Neither two nor three of your words will help the matter It is the word of God that must decide it between vs. Whatsoever you have replyed in the former Treatise I have there answered And now I leave it to all indifferent and Christian mynds to acknowledge your
although theyr Church receyve them yet is Mr Iacobs defence as sound for them then as it is now Neyther may any for these or the like separate from theyr Church worship or Ministery if you will beleev him Yet note that for proof of this assertion you must let them take day For as yet they can shew you none And what now if any of the errors which the Church of England at this day retayneth be fundamentall What will Mr Iacob say to that Then agayne he is at a flat Non plus and all his book is not worth a rush save that it yeelds vs the cause and graunts theyr Church to be a false Church aÌ„d theyr people to be no true ChristiaÌ„s in that estate For this therefore see what is sayd in the Treatise hereafter following Pag. 22. 114. 147. 148. What also if D. Bilson should aunswer Mr Iacob for that poynt of Christs descension into Hell as he aunswereth vs for theyr Church corruptions that though it be an error yet it is not fundamentall yea and that they in K. Edvvards dayes held it Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Would Mr Iacob take this of his word or think it a sufficient warant for the holding thereoff or bynd others to be likewise mynded c. But to let this passe let Mr Iacob mynd well the estate and practise of theyr Church but in such particulars as I have named hereafter Pag. 63. 64. 65. and then let him aunswer as before God Are they lawfull or vnlawfull Are they of Christ or Antichrist Of God or the Divell Lead they to heaven or hell May they be found in the Word and Churches of God or in the Popes Churches Canons Portuis Pontificall May they any maner way be approved and communicated withall or are they not wholy and with detestation to be refused and abhorred For aunswer hereof I will wayte till Mr Iacob reply agayne And in the meane tyme I will now aunswer what he and his Prefacemaker have already published Where first I desier the Reader in both of them and in Bridges Bancroft Bilson Hooker Sutcliff and all such writers of that Church to mynd these three things 1. That all theyr reasoning and perswasions are no other but such as may lead men eyther backe agayne to Popery or the ready way to Atheisme or at least to receyve whatsoever religion the Prince pleaseth so themselues account it not to be fundamentall Thus are they all blynd guydes Thus do they all teach to continew in sinne Thus do they shut vp the kingdome of heaven before men neyther entring in themselues nor suffring them that would enter to come in 2. That they do even set themselues to carpe at the truth it self and at the mayntenance and practise thereoff To which end they vse they care not what objections and abuse they care not whom 3. That they never do so much as offer to bring proof from the Scripture for theyr estate and practise See the particulars afterward rehearsed Pag. 63. 64. 65. And mynd iff there be any of them all that in any book they have written have brought warrant for them from the word of God Onely D. VVhitgift made an assay for some of them but he was so taken downe by Mr Cartvvright as he was glad to lay downe the bucklers which synce that tyme neyther himselff nor any other durst take vp And now Sutcliffe himselff can tell them iff Mr Cartwright have the better hand of D. Whitgift that then the Church of England is no true Church of Christ and that there is iust cause to departe and separate from it Sut. Engl. b. Pag. 228. These things noted I do now come to Mr Iacobs book and first to the Preface which his fellow and frend at a need hath prefixed before it Where I will for more evidence of the truth and stopping of theyr mouths first set downe his owne words as I do also Mr Iacobs afterward in the book it self and then make aunswer vnto them He that made or wrote the Preface subscribeth his Name thus D. B. And thus he beginneth it The Publisher to the Christian Reader Section 1. ABout Three Yeeres since Maister Iacob having some speach vvith certen of the separation before mentioned concerning their peremptory vtter separation from the Churches of England vvas requested by them briefly to sett dovvn in vvriting his Reason for defence of the said Churches And they vvould either yeild vnto his proofes or procure an ansvver vnto the same VVherevppon the Argument follovving this Preface vvas set dovvne in vvriting by maister Iacob vvhich the said parties did send to Maister Fr. Iohnson being then prisoner in the Clinke in Southvvark vvho made an ansvver vnto the same conteyning 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons in denyall of the Assumption vvherevnto Maister Iacob Replyed Aftervvard Maister Iohnson defended his sayd Exceptions and Reasons And finally Maister Iacob Replyed againe As by the particulars themselves appeareth The Aunswer These two letters Geuev Scot. Allobrog Disc Pag. 7. D. B. I fynd to be set for Doctor Bancroft now Prelate of London in a * shameles book of his not long synce sparsed abroad In which respect as also considering many as godles things here agayne published albeit some might think it were therefore to be ascriâ—ed vnto him yet for other causes partly appearing in the book partly knowen of the man I thinck this Preface was not made by him but rather by another †Daniel Buck D. B. a Scrivener of London a man that hath turned his coat and forsaken the truth as often as †Doct. Pernâ— D. P. the old turne coat did if not also oftner He it was that by letters desired of me to aunswer Mr Iacobs Argument as here is said being himself at that tyme separated from the false worship and Ministery of England to which vomit he is now againe returned wallowing in that â—â—yer from which then he was washed Then also he could say himself thought Mr. Iacobs Argument was frivolous and of no waight and that his desier with some others was to have it answered for the stopping of Mr Iacobs mouth who thought it vnaunswerable Herevpon I made answer vnto it and as there was occasion by Mr Iacobs doubled Replyes have aunswered agayne and agayne I have also for sundry causes consulted with others therein and namely with Mr Henry Ainsvvorth Teacher of our Church my work-fellow to the kingdome of God approved in Christ At London 1593. and Mr Daniel Studley another off our Elders who hath given vp his life for the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ being first * adâ—udged to death afterward exiled c. And now vnto thee good Christian Reader I exhibit the whole Treatise conteyning beside that which was published before my aunswer also to Mr Iacobs second and last Reply that thou mayest try the matter by the word off God and as it agreeth therewith so to receyve it and no
2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers †Rev. 13 1â— buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratioÌ„ see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * NotvvithstaÌ„ding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectioÌ„ which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratioÌ„ or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things alâ—ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would froÌ„ hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast ††Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.
annexe the testimony of one of the Martyrs a good while synce when Antichrist as yet was but a litle discovered in respect as synce that tyme he hath ben One of the Articles against Iohn Claydon who was burned at London in Smithfield in the yeare 1415 was this That the Bisshops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the Beast that is Antichrist Where marke that albeit a man preach the word of God yet he sayth the Bishops licence so to do is the Beasts marke Act. and Monum edit 5. Pag. 588. b. Thus much I thought to write here also concerning this poynt Yet if D. B. or Mr Iacob for him who do both of them receyve and carry daily the Beasts marks in theyr foreheads and hands and therefore may well have sure knowledge thereof can shew them any better from the word of God I shall willingly heare it And seing that here he wisheth we knew the marks of the Beast a litle better we do also entreat him if his leasure and ability will serve to make them a litle better knowen vnto vs. But I doubt it will now be found in him and the rest of them at this day as Mr Ridley that faithfull Martyr found and complayned in his tyme saying I feare me nay it is certayne the World that wanteth the light of the Spirit of God for the world is not able to receyve him sayth Iohn neyther doth nor shall know the Beast nor his marks though he rage cruelly and live never so beastly and though his marked men be in number like the sand of the sea Act. and Mon. 5. edit Pag. 1618. b. To conclude this matter then may I not well returne theyr ovvne speach vpon themselves and say Surely they are for the most part so wholy given and bend their wits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never look into their owne estate or apply the Scriptures to themselues But let them look vnto it it will be theyr decay in the end That all errors are alike is a fancy of his owne We did neuer imagine it We know and professe otherwise To give but one instance The Iewes the Arrians the Papists the Mungrell-protestants the Lutherans the Anabaptists c. do all of them at this day erre very greatly concerning the Person or Office of Iesus Christ who is “ 1 Cor. 3.11 the onely foundation of the Church Yet we know theyr errors are not all alike Some are greater some lesser some in one poynt some in another But this we say that all theyr errors are such as every faithfull Christian ought to eschew them and to witnes the contrary truth against them vnto death as they will aunswer to God at that day His obiection likewise of all the commaundements of God to be obeyed alike c. is of his owne coyning I do not think that ever he heard it of any of vs or that he did ever see it in any of our writings If he did he may shew it We know that Christ speaking of the dutyes of the first Table sayth This is first and the great commaundement Mat. 22.39 And that therefore the duâ—â—es of the second table must alway give place to the first as to the greater Math. 10.37.39 Luk. 14.26 Act. 20.24 Except when the mercy commaunded in the second is to be preferred before the ceremonyes required in the first and such like Hos 6.6 vvith Mat. 12 1-7 Luk. 13.14.17 We acknowledge also there is difference in the commaundements of the first Table when they are compared together one with another And in the commaundements likewise of the Second And consequently therefore in the dutyes required in both for our obedience These things are so well knowen as they may learne them of very children Note withall that we are bound to keep not onely the greatest of the commaundements of God but even the very least notwithstanding any perswasion prohibition or persecution to the contrary because they are all from one and the same God with commaundement to obey them all and every one and that vnder payne of damnation Therefore also Christ sayd The Second is like to the first and great commaundement Math. 22.39 Now iff any in this sence do say that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike it may well be vnderstood according to that saying of our Lord Iesus before alledged Mat. 22.38.39.40 Otherwise there is difference to be put as is aforesaid in the dutyes both of the two Tables themselves and of the severall commaundements of each of them His inserting of these two words the Scriptures and fundamentall when he saith that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike I will not now further stand vpon It seemeth he did it for some evasion Which I doubt not but his next Reply if he be not already at a Non plus will make more manifest Till then let this suffice which hath ben said The place of 1 Cor. 3.12.15 both he and Mr Iacob do misvnderstand and misalledge The Apostel speaketh not there of any false doctrine or errors built vppon the foundation but of the entising speach of mans wisdome and vayne eloquence off words By which it came to passe that although they taught nothing but the truth and so buylt vpon the foundation Iesus Christ yet they did it vnworthily and not as became the simplicity of the Gospell of Christ That this is the true and playne meaning of the Apostles speach appeareth thus 1 Cor. 2. 3 chap. 1. First by comparing together the second and third chapters of this Epistle Where all may see that he speaketh not a worde of any error or vntruth that was taught but of the simplicity on the one hand and of the ostentation of speach and humane wisdome on the other which was vsed by the Teachers of Corinth in theyr building vpon the foundation that is in theyr teaching of the truth of Iesus Christ 2. Secondly for that the very terme * 1 Cor. 3.10 here vsed by the Apostle concerneth directly the maner of teaching or building vpon the foundation not the matter taught or built vpon it His words are these Let euery man take heed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv he buildeth vpon it The word which he vseth here is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv for the manner not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvhat for the matter 3. Thirdly because for the matter taught the Apostle doth els where give another rule concerning all teachers of errors and false doctrine though they should be Angels from heaven viz. to give them no countenance at all neyther to have any communion with them but to separate from them and hold them accursed 1 Tim. 6 3.4.5 Gal. 1.8.9 Rom. 16.17.18 2 Ioh ver 10.11 Rev. 22.18.19
three generall pointes 1. That euerie person in England holding our publique faith is no true Christian 2. That all the Christians Churches in King Edwards time namely Maister Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. were all lims of Antichrist and no true Chaistians 3. That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience that the PraelaÌ„cie is vnlawfull and vntolerable The First of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which you gainsay The second though it be not expresly spoken yet it is directly euidently and vndeniably concluded by all and euery of your arguments against vs. As in the seueralls hereafter we shal see The third you are driueÌ„ vnto for defence of your former Assertion which els falleth to the grounde And this you affirme flatly in your defence of your 1. 6. and 7. Reasons Now my desire is that all men would take notice of these your 3. Assertions and consider indifferently whether they proceed from an honest a sober or a Christian minde And you M. Iohnson if you list hereafter to say any more defend these 3. pointes directly and plainly that your aunswers may be briefer and more certain then now they are And novv I come to the particular examination of your former aunsvver First you say You omitted the PropositioÌ„ before not for the soundnes of it but only because you would see how I meant it Why He that hath but half an eie may see the meaning of those wordes where is no darknes nor doubtfulnes of sence at all What fault finde you in it now Forsooth first a want in Assumption and then vntruthes both in the Proposition and Assumption of my Sillogisme There vvanteth you say that I should expresse in the AssumptioÌ„ That our Assemblies be companies gatherd togeather in the doctrines ordinances which we all by lawe publiquely professe and practise Who but a wrangler would not vnderstand that I meant so much Nay doe not my expresse wordes implie asmuch when I say We by law publiquelie professe and practise them Then are not our Assemblies which are by law gathered together in this professioÌ„ power Fy forshame these are sencelesse cauilations But because what in me lieth I would not haue you any more to stumble at a strawe Not that the Argument is vnsound vvithout this addition But because the Reader may see hovv you vvil play at a small game rather then sit out â—â—aâ—unt I haue to satisfie you withall now added those wordes to the Assumption aforesaid in a contrarie letter which you desire viz. and our publique assemblies are therein gathered together Secondly you say that my proposition meaneth that whatsoeuer is held togeather with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church Yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures O strange dealing in all my writing I haue no such word no sillable no letter sounding to that sence I haue directly contrarie in my aunswer to your fourth ReasoÌ„ as your self noteth there Yet you M. Iohnson without all shame in the view of the world doe Father on me this foule vntruth most sencelesse errour in your first entrance Further whereas it seemeth you reproue my Proposition requiring to to haue it set thus Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a perticular man a true Christian and hath nothing added with it destroying the foundation of faith That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered together a true Church You must know M. Iohnson that that were an idle vaine addition for wheresoeuer there are any such things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient indeed it is not sufficient to make a true Christian Wherefore nodum inscirpo quaeris this is to finde a knot in a rush Thus much concerning the trunes of my Proposition The AssuÌ„ption examined by the Exceptions Reasons follovving Lastlie you come to deny my Assumption or rather to maintaine your deniall heretofore giuen Where first note that by denying my assumption you affirme the first generall point noted in this beginning That euerie particular person in England holding our publique faith here is no true Christian Which O Lorde who would not tremble to think on Euen that which this man aboue two yeates agoe affirmed and novv againe aduisedly and wilfully defendeth I take Heauen and Earth to record this day whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs examine your exceptions and reasoÌ„s against my Assumption more particularly wee shall see what stuffe it is Your first exception against the same is as followeth Fr. Iohnson his 3. Aunâ—wer VVHat M. Iacob Doth your mouth so runne ouer as you could not but eueÌ„ at first speak vntruth and forge deceit When your beginning is so bad it is an ill token the end will not be very good You would here father vpoÌ„ me three things which I neuer imagined as they are by you collected Therefore to cleare the truth and sâ—op your mouth I will declare what my mind is and hath ben concerning them For the first your wordes are That euerie person in England holding your publique faith is no true Christian Touching this point I mind the estate of your people two waies The one concerning their severall persons considered a part from the constitution of your Church the other concerning their estate and standing in that constitution Concerning the former of these that is considering them apart from the constitution I acknowledge that in diuers of them there appeareth such knowledg and faith of the gospel with the frutes thereof as they may well be thought in regard of Gods election in Christ to be heires of saluation and in that respect to be true Christians God pardoning vnto them their standing vnder Antichrist which they doe not see or mind But withall I feare least many mo heretofore were pertakers of this grace then be now since your Antichristian estate and the vnlawfulnes to abide therein hath bin discouered Concerning the latter that is in respect of their estate and standing in that constitution of your Church I am perswaded whosoeuer so stand holding your publique faith and multitude of Antichristian abhominations withall they cannot by the word of God be iudged true Christians as touching their outward estate in that church of yours but stand all subiect to wrath God imputing this their sinne vnto them And that all therefore who will be assured of Gods mercie and saluation ought with speed to goe out of your Church it still remaining in Antichristian estate To make this matter more plaine take out of Israell an example in Abiiah the sonne of Ieroboam If you consider him as standing with the rest in that apostasie and Church-constitution of Israell he is subiect to like condemnation with them in that estate But if you consider him apart from it as there is found
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
with the Articles IniuÌ„etioÌ„s Aduerticements and Caueates in that behalf prouided If any preach the word of God any further they are subiect to be sileÌ„ced banished and put to death That these things accord with the ordinaÌ„ce of Christ or with your owne description of a visible Church I suppose your self will not for shame affirme it Lastly in your description it is required That the Sacramentes be duely ministred according to the ordinance of Christ in all things that of necessity are requisite to the same Now by the ordinance of Christ in the administration of the Sacraments there are necessarily required 1. A lawfull Minister 2. A lawfull people 3. A lawfull administratioÌ„ according to the Testament of Christ In al which your practise is contrary to the ordinance of Christ and your owne description aforesayd Your Ministers all of them are either Prelates Priestes or Deacons which among you is a step to the Priesthood none of which Christ hath ordeyned in his Testament for the work of his Ministerie Your people are not separated from the world See Iohn 15.19 17.14 1â— but stand in confusion with it and in subiection to the Antichristian Prelates and Prelacie and therefore cannot be deemed a true Church of God and the people of Christ vnto whome in such estate the SacrameÌ„ts which are seales of the couenant of grace doe apperteine and may be administred 1 Iob. 4 â— 5 Act 2 40. and 19 9. Rev. 18.4 and 14.9 Finally your administration is according to the inventions and precepts of men with sâ—inted prayers exhortations Epistles and Gospels and besides these in Baptisme crossing on the forehead and questions to the infant in the Lords supper translating and vsing out of the Masse book other words theÌ„ the words of Christes institution and such like as may be seen at large in your book of common prayer which is picked and culled out of the Masse book full of abominations as * Admonition to the Parlament your selues haue confessed heretofore These things we haue ben forced thus to mention at large both because you twise demaund as if you knew not your selves wherein your practise is contrarie to that description aforesaid and because you blush not to affirme that all the ChristiaÌ„ world seeth and confesseth your practise to be agreable to your profession in that book Whereas the contrarie is most true Touching which what your selues haue heretofore written to the contrarie See in the Admonitions to the Parliament Replies of T. C. against D. Whitgist Demonstration of Discipline c. And what the reformed Churches professe to the contrarie see in the French Belgicke and Heluetian Churches in the Harmonie of confessions SeÌ„ct 10.11 Thus also appeareth what iust cause we had to put you to proue your assemblies to be such as your selues describe visible Churches to bee Which seeing you haue not yet done and seeing your practise is contrary to your profession as now at your request we haue shewed in the particulars aforesayd If you still be minded as before we do also still aske where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in your owne description of a visible Church Your similitude of a Landlord and Tenaunt is against your selues so worthy and Clerklike is your Reply If any haue vsurped or otherwise made a false claime never so long to a peece of land or other possession may they not iustly be called vpoÌ„ to shew their title and bring forth their euidence Let the Iudges giue sentence If you deny your claime to be such shew your euidence from the Apostles writings Let vs froÌ„ thence see your evidence for the offices of Archbs Lord bs Archdeacons Priests ParsoÌ„s Vicars c. For your entrance into these offices according to your Canons and book of ordering Priests c. For your administration by your scinted imposed Leiturgy and by your Popish Canons Officers proceedings c. For your maintenance by Tythes Chrisomes Offerings c. For your confused communion of all sortes of people though never so wicked in the body of your Church c. Let vs I say see evidence for these from the Apostles writings if you denie your claime to be such as we haue noted Otherwise if you speake not according to this word ‡ Esay 8. â—â— it is because there is no light in you neither any right to that you challendge Where you say vve held part of your possessioÌ„ vvith you hertofore If you meane that we with you receiued the beastes mark and drunke of the cup of Babels abominations we deny it not but acknowledg Gods mercy that passing ouer our sinnes hath giuen vs grace and strength “ Rev 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Act. 2.40 at his coÌ„maundement to forsake that way of Antichrist and to come out of that spirituall Babylon to the saluation of our soules Which mercy we wish also to you that being saued from that froward generation you may become the sonnes and daughters of the Lord almighty Touching your Article Preaching Sacraments MinistratioÌ„ c Ynough is said before Onely where you say you see not your selues vvherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary It is too impudent vntruth as your ‡ AdmonitioÌ„ to the Parlament T. C. his replies in defeÌ„ce thereof DemoÌ„stration of discipline Defence of Ecclesiasticall discipline c. former writings doe and will alwaies testifie to your face which we will not stand here to relate That shall suffice which we haue touched before which till it be aunswered the Exception hath both reason and weight in it whatsoever you doe or can pretend to the contrary H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 1. Excep HEre is much adoe to no purpose You obserue 4. pointes in our Article omitted by me wherein our practise is contrarie to our profession First our Article requireth a visible Church to be an assemblie of faithfull men But our ossemblies say you are not so This is false they are so you shall neuer proue in vs the contrary more then appeareth was in the Church of the Iewes both Auncient and in the time of Christ and yet they than were the true Church As I haue elswhere in this book sufficiently proued and shewed against you That which you bring of D. VVhitgift and other writers amongst vs of the prophanesse of many in our assemblies you depraue their meaninges vtterly for though they graunt very many such to be amongst vs yet they say not that all our assemblies are such nor our whole assemblies Neither denie they our assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be separated from Nay the contrary do they euen that onely they ought to be reformed Therefore you too grosly abuse them Secondly The Article requireth the pure word of God to be preached But say you the Apocrypha books and reading of Homilies and other errors are allowed in our practise Yea surely and in our profession too as your self obserueth
Auricular confession such like greeuous errors And yet notwithstāding dyed constantly for the truthes they saw some for one and some for another as God made manifest vnto them But may we now therefore so professe and practise in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errors a sufficient defence for vs Yet thus would you beare vs in hand Furthermore tell vs if M. Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacy and functions they had before time received And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had ben so earnest for the remnants of Popery in his time retained Besides who knoweth not that when M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. died Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had them selves nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for And not that onely but were members of that persecuted Church in Queene Maries dayes which was seperated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned in covenaunt by voluntary profession to obey the truth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did vnto death in the truth they saw though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wants and errors Yet who is so blind or besotted as not to see that their errors may not be our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for whatsoever trueth God revealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs shall rise in iudgment against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath given vs “ Psal 119.105.128 Gal. 1.8.9 6.16 Deut. 12.32 Rev. 22.18.19.20 his vvord to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane you to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoever Should not ‡ Esa 8.19 all people enquier at God or would you have vs go from the liuing to the dead From God and his word to men and their errors This doubtlesse is that wherevnto you would bring vs and whereby you mislead your favorites as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say you next Secondly you tell vs and wish it to be noted as we also do That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely These say you are writtten The second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward governement and ceremonies These you say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus you say you hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it For aunswer hereof First we aske what Scripture you have for it Secōdly we alledg against it these Scriptures and the like 1 Tim. 3.15 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. chap. 14.23 15. chap. 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephe. 4.11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 1 Cor. 4.17 5. ◠11. 12. 14. Chap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6.1.6 2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18.15.16.17 28.18.19.20 Thirdly let it be observed that your self here graunt and cannot deny but all the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies of your Church are invented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not vvritten in the vvord of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned to at all Fourthly see how neare you are driven that are glad to run back into the Papists tentes where yet you know there is no succour Before you pleaded possession time out of mind now you tell vs of ordināces vnwritten c. Are not these meere popish shiftes even the old worne arguments of Antiquity and Vnvvritten verities so often and so much stood vpon by the Papists Alas that you should plead to be true Christians and yet thus openly take part with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and wil verifie his word That they which receiue not the loue of the trueth 2 Thes 2.10.11.12 that they may be saued he vvill send them strong delusion to beleeue lyes that they may be damned Fifthly you make the ordinances touching outward gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither vvritten at all This is very strange divinity And thus I shew it It is an ordinance not only concerning the inward but also the outward governemēt of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof Is it therefore no matter of faith It concerneth the outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the Church or no Doth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the vvord and hearing of it preached administration and receiuing of the Sacraments are matters cōcerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church Doe they not therefore touch fayth Admonition and excommunication concerne also the outward governement of the Church Do they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this Divinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper being Ceremonies shall with you be no matters of faith at all Yet here you stay not but adde moreover That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church be arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate not vvritten nor certaine c. Wherevpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the Scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or Canterbury be head and Archbishop of the Church of God 2. Whether Iewes onely of the Tribe of Leui may now minister the holy things of God in his Church 3. Whether Christ hath given any giftes and set any Offices in his Church for the Ministery and guidance thereof 4. Whether prayer must be in a knowen or vnknowen toung 5. Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored 6. Whether the Church may excomunitate 7. Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunicatiō be to be regarded 8. Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacraments 9. Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other Ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Lavv be now to be vsed 10. Whether the Heathenish sacrifices and vvorship be to be ioyned withall 11. Whether creame oyle salt spittle crossing and coniuring may be vsed in Baptisme 12. Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to be given to the lay people as you cal them 13. Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the Church 14. Whether the Iewish and the Popish Vestments Fasts and holy dayes are to be observed And a
they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath †Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we †Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. †Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. †Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith
* Act and Mon. edi◠5. p. 581. ◠He neither denied their popish transubstantion neither spake against the authority of the Church of Rome if it vvere vvell governed nor yet the 7. Sacraments and also sayd Masse himself and almost in all their popish opinions vvas a Papist vvith them Thus hath that book word for word What say you now vnto it What think you of these particulars and of that conclusion that not onely in these but almost in all their opinions He vvas a Papist vvith them Againe in the same book Hierom of Prage another Martyr speaking of Iohn Hus saith ‡ Ibid. pag. 584. b. he never maintained any doctrine against the Church of Rome but onely spake against their naughty life To which purpose may be minded also that the Hussites in Bohemia so called to this day for following Iohn Hus are for trausubstantiation and most of the popish errors and worship as grosse as the Papists themselves And to give an instance of our owne countreymen the same history speaking of Thomas Bilney who was burnt at Norwich hath thus * Ibid. pa. 921. b. As touching the Masse and Sacrament of the Altar as he never varyed frō himself so he never differed therein frō the most grossest Catholicks Mark these words he differed not therein from the most grossest How now will this and your speach agree who blush not to say that the book of Acts and Monuments affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Besides this bold vntruth of yours let the Reader mind how plainely you insinuate that if your Church had the Masse and the Popes supremacy so it were not in the largest and grossest sort you could defend their case aswell then as you do now by bearing the world in hand that these things might stand vvith Christ crucified c. Let the Reader mind and remember it I say no more It remaineth that now I cleare M. Hus and the rest of the Martyrs from your rash censure You judge if any of them held any errors that be fundamentall they are no holy Martyrs but abolished from Christ This I denie And you to proue it should from the Scriptures have showed first what it is to be fundamētall or of the foundation then that whosoever holdeth such error is abolished from Christ But you have done neither I know that here and everie where you give vs your bare word and obtrude vnto vs your owne fancies But your words are no Oracles nor your fācies rules for any to follow Handle these things therefore more soundly in your next And what you speak speak it frō the word of God In the meane time for better clearing of the truth and Martyrs I will show you my mind being ready notwithstanding to heare any that can show better from the word of God And so I pray you take this and all my writings First the word foundation is vsed in the scripture and therefore is of vs to be considered divers waies One is in respect of God and his election Of the foundation and fundamental points or of his Church and people called and sanctified in Christ 2. Tim. 2.19 Psal 87. Pro. 10.25 Another is in respect of the onely ground of all true faith and Churches which is Iesus Christ or of the first principles and speciall heads of Christian religion Mat. 16.15.16.17.18 1 Cor. 3.11 Esa 26.16 1 Pet. 2.6 with Heb. 6.1.2 A third is in respect of the Apostles and Prophets doctrine concerning Christ or of our receiving it and building therevpon Ephes 2.20 Rev. 21.14 1 Cor. 3 10-15 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Luk. 6.48.49 Now which way soever you take it there is no question but the Martyrs although they erred through ignorance of that time in some waightie points of Christs Religion which you call fundamentall yet were notwithstanding holy Martyrs For touching the first of the exceptions aforesaid Gods foundation remained sure and sealed vnto them so as the Lord knew them to be his and they also were sanctified both to witnes vnto death the truth then called in question and to depart from the contrarie iniquitie Touching the second and third they both beleeved in Iesus Christ as it pleased God to reveale him in their age by the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles and they built firmely therevpon not stumbling at the word and disobeying it as is the manner of most now a daies but obeying and holding it forth vnto death So as when the stormes and floods of persecution beat vpon them they were not shaken from the truth they testified but remained constant to the end even when the politick Statutes of Princes the subtill arguments of the learned the earnest perswasion of their friends the great losse of their goods liberty estimation in the world finally the most cruell vsage and tirannie of the Adversaries as it were so many waves and tempests stronglie assailed to drive them a contrarie course Thus were they faithfull to God and loved not their lives vnto death as their Martyrdome proclaimeth to all the world howsoever you could be content it seemeth for any the more advantage to your selves to lay their honour in the dust Secondly in this question we are to discerne betweeen the errors them selves and between the persons that hold them The errours may in their nature be fundamentall as you speak and yet the persons erring therein of ignorance not striving against the light revealed but indevoring to walk faithfully in the truth they see may through Gods mercie in Christ be saved For example some of the Corinthians that denied * 1 Cor. 15.12 the resurrection of the body and some of the Galatians that erred about “ Gal. 4.9.10.21 5.2.3.10 and 6.12.13.15 Circumcision the Law although the errors were in their owne nature fundamentall as you will not deme yet might they that dyed in them before Paules epistles came to those Churches thereabout be saved of God As we * 1 Cor. 11.30.31.32 read that some were dead and chastised of God a-about their abuse of the Sacrament yet not condemned with the world Likewise of Abijah the sonne of Ieroboam that made Israell to sinne the ‡ 1 King 14.1.13 Scripture recordeth that God shewed him mercie because in him was found some goodnes toward the Lord God of Israell Where marke those words some goodnes By which appeareth that although he were as the rest in that generall apostasie of Israell which your self account fundamētal yet having some goodnes in him towards the Lord he found mercie at his hands Furthermore at this day concerning the errors of the Lutherans about cōsubstantiation and the person of Christ of the Anabaptists about Christs humanitie and denying Baptisme to the seed of the faithfull of the Papistes about trāsubstantiation the Popes supremacie c. I suppose that you will graunt both that these errors be fundamentall as touching the nature of the errors thēselves and that yet
in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2◠15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
‡ Rev. 18.1.2.3.4.11 c 17.1.2.3.4.5 14.8.9.10.11 the spirituall Babylon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children Marchants that will not depart out of her shall receive of her plagues and damnation and drink of the vvine of Gods vvrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for evermore Loe here your fearfull estate which you notwithstanding will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that I call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vessels of the Iewes were as available to sanctify the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctify vs. In deed your ovvne vvordes be holden and received in the spirituall Babylon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse Sophistry againe Is not this childish vanity open beggerie and craving of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babylon and as deepely infected in Babylonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question and seing we professe our selves true Christians by those truths of the Gospell which wee hold and as by Gods grace wee are in deed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most †To match those outvard vessells of no sanctity of themselves with our inward doctrines of salvation impious absurd and senceles comparison and void of common Reason And it inwrappeth wrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same iniurious you irreligious consequence likewise All that you have of allusions and alluding betweene the Typicall and spirituall Babylon are meere delusions and vaine cavils Prove vs first to be spirituall Babylon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you have not refuted The very same I say of your other two scriptures towards the end Prov 9.17 c. Rev. 18.1 c. As for Ezech. 43.8 I answered it before †Pag. 71. in your First Reason Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 5. Reason HAve you said any thing here first Mr Iacob but denyed the Conclusion If you have shew it If not confesse your owne childish vanity and open beggery c. For which the name of Sophistry is to good though otherwise it be bad ynough and the cognisance of all your Replies Now that this you say is but the denyal of the Conclusion thus I shew That which I conclude towching your Churches is this that they are not constitute according to the ordināce of Christ but according to the apostasy of Antichrist that is that your Churches in their estate are spirituall Babylon This I say is that which I have concluded heretofore and still do throughout my Reasons Exceptions Aunswers and now of purpose have I set it downe at the beginning of this treatise Pag. 3. Your denying of this then what is it els but the denyall of the Conclusion But this now being proved you are driven nill ye will ye plainely to graunt that in deed my Reason will follow Well Mr Iacob though it were long first yet thus you yeeld now at length Better late thrive then never Abide but by this and I trow you will not now any longer stand member or Minister of your Assemblies in that estate neyther condemne vs any more for separating from them Next howsoever it were for the question between vs yet the Proposition of the Comparison cannot but be true which in your first Reply you said was most false and now you would passe by because you can say nothing against it Yet mynd Mr Iacob that in denying it you did there agayne give the lye to the holy Ghost whose doctrine it is in these Scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 Levit. 23. chap. Prov. 9.17.18 By all this then you may see it is your owne dealing that is most impious absurd sencelesse c. thus to strive as you have done against so cleare a truth and everie where in your Replyes to fight against God and his word Which even here againe you cease not to do whiles you call such allusions and comparisons as the Scripture vseth between the typicall and spirituall Babylon meer delusions and vayne cavils How I matched together on the one hand the vessells of the Lords Temple and the truthes of the Gospell on the other The Caldean and spirituall Babylon may be seen in my former aunswer Which may suffice for any thing you say here both your marginall note and all the rest I could tell you further if it needed that Babel in English is confusion And that such is the estate of your Church even a confusion of all sorts of people good and bad Besides that your tounges are divided and your language confounded as it was in * Gen. 11.9 Babel of old whiles the Prelates the Reformists your self and the like as Neuters between both speak some one thing some another towching your Hierarchy worship Canons c. some †The Prel Formal that they are of God and to be kept and obeyed for conscience sake some ‡ The Sekers of Reform that they are of Antichrist and to be removed and witnessed against vnto death though every haire of the head were a life some ♣ Mr Iacob the like that they are neyther of God neyther of Antichrist simply fundamentally indifferently c. And thus as men confounded in your selves by the just judgement of God your toungues are divided you know not your selves what to make and account of these things or one of another I could also put you in mind that as the Caldean Babylon was so the spirituall Babylon is notorious for false worship towards God and for persecution of his people keping them in thraldome and captivity See M. Iacob◠Repl. before And that now the estate of your Church is such viz worshipping God after a false maner never prescribed by himself kept in subiection to your Antichristian Prelats and persecuting the people of God by prisonment exile death c. it is so evident as when you are called vpon to shew warrāt for these among you your vsuall aunswer is no other but after this sort * Pag. 37. Let the State which mainteyneth these things aunswer for them †Pag. 70. For my part I never thought other but our Church corruptions are against the Secōd
God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will deny The Assumption is proved thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the covenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteine But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assēblies of England as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteyne The Proposition was proved by the example of the Samaritans and by Christs speach concerning them in such estate Ioh. 4. 2 King 17. wherevnto you answer nothing to any purpose save that what you say is against your self For where you graunt That the Samaritans and Balaam knew and beleeved the Messias should come yea and that the Divels know beleev there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therfore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holy things and service of God do apperteine And where next you say The Samaritans beleeved not in the Messias it will be heard for you to proove it seeing you take beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daguhters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleeved not onely that the Messias should come but even he which is called Christ and that when he came he would declare vnto them all things In so much as when Iesus was come and had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the Scripture witnesseth that many of the Samaritans of that city beleved in him for the saying of the woman which testifyed he hath tolde me all things that ever I did Iohn 4.25.26.29.30.39 Thirdly where you say The Samaritans ioined Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell whih wholy destroyed the trueth in them By this againe it is evident even in your owne confession both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true Churches to whom the promises and holy things of God do belong and that therefore also the Proposition of your principall and maine Argument is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitation So then your maine defence falleth to the ground Of which see further Pag. 5. c. Moreover in that you say The Samaritans ioyned Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell 2 King 17. If you meane that they worshipped the Idols themselves ◠King 17. sacrifycing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First cōmaundemēt as before you affirmed in your answer to the First Reason then I take it that here againe you are deceived The scripture sayeth they worshipped and sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God See before Pag. 67. 68. they did it in and by those Images as also by other devices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their case besides that it appeareth in the chapter alledged it is most plainly testifyed 1. First by themselves in the book of Ezra where they speak to the Iewes of the captivitie that builded the Temple saying * Ezra 4.1.2 We will build with you for vve seek the Lord your God as ye do and we have sacrifyced vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Ashur which brought vs vp hither 2. Secondly by the speach that was between Christ and the woman of Samaria Ioh. 4. where it is manifest the “ Ioh. 4.20.21 22.23.24.25.29.30 contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God vvas to be vvorshipped but both of them agreeing in that vvhether the solemne place of his vvorship vvas in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. 3. Lastly by your owne confession when ‡ Pag. 105. you say the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their ovvne devices For the Samaritans as the †2 King 17.28.32.33 Scripture testifyeth worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did vvhich vvere caried from thence Now the nations thence carried were the tenne Tribes of Israel that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam Who likewise ♣ 1 King 12.27.28.29.30.31 with 2 King 17.32.33.40.41 feared the Lord and served their Images that is God in and by their Images As now also the Samaritans did that were come in their stead Hitherto of your answer which seemeth to concerne the Proposition of the latter Syllogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that your Assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people you have also for your vvorship of God a counterfeit Ministery and service devised by man This you do rightly vnderstand as we meane it of your Hierarchie and other abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. Which deceiptfully here againe you would smother vp vnder the name of ceremonies Touching which sleight of yours sufficient is said before in the handling of the First Reason But what say you now cōcerning the Assumption or proof of it Do you deny it Not so What then do you say for your counterfet Hierarchie vvorship c. Not a word but this That your assemblies in England have not their consciences conuicted in these as the people vnder Ieroboam could not but have their consciences convicted then touching their vvorship and Priesthood But first if this were so is it any just defence of your Ministery vvorship or estate that yet you see them not to to be vnlawfull as it could not be but they vnder Ieroboam saw theirs to be If this were a sufficient reason might not the grossest Papists plead likewise for their Ministery worship and estate as also the Vsurers extortioners and persecutors for themselves and their wickednes And by this reason God should not have sent Lyons among the Samaritans 2 King 17.26 because yet they knew not the maner of worshipping the God of Israell neither had their consciences convicted therein But Christ hath taught vs otherwise †Luk 12.48 that even that servant vvhich knovveth not his Maisters vvill and yet committeth things vvorthy of stripes shal be beaten though vvith fevver stripes then he that knovveth and doeth it not And of those Israelites aforesaid the Lord himself testifieth “ Hos 4.6 that they vvere destroyed for lack of
also the obstinate vvere most fearfully smitten vvith Gods miraculous hand from heauen So that for any to offend in these poinctes as Ieroboam did it could not possible bee but in presumptuous rebellion vvith a high hand against God and vvith a conuicted seared conscience Which I say cannot vvith any shevv of sence be said of many Thousand Christians in this case touching the Praelacie c. Further you vrge these Reasons That this cause hath bene made manifest to the consciences of men pag. 108. yea to the Parliament of late times You say vvell to the consciences of men but not to the consciences of all men or the most men throughout the land Yea or the most of them that knovv and feare God according to the religion novv mainteyned This is the very question If you meane so that all mens coÌ„sciences are coÌ„uicted in this matter all men surely vvill either pitty your simplicitie or laugh at your folly I pray you Maister Iohnson consider your selfe you vvere a true Christian longe before you fell into this separation Yea moreouer you vvere learned yea you knevv and acknovvledged these very corruptions a great while and yet condemned vs not Nay you condemned the separation earnestly I pray you is it not possible that numbers who see not so farre as you did then should still coÌ„demne your separation yet be true ChristiaÌ„s as you acknowledg that your self then vvas meipso teste That which you adde * pag. ibid. of persecuting vnto bandes exile and death to proue our vtter abolishing from Christ generally It is a toy First if you were meerely innocent yet this could not make vs worse then the Iewes in Chrstes time who for all that they persecuted yet were they not wholly falne from God Secondly you suffer indeed more then you need H. â—a if that you would but acknowledge the grace of God with vs so farre as it is It is therefore not Christes Crosse in that regard but your owne that you beare Finally let it bee noted if †M. Iohnson his contrariety proved bâ—tvvene his 2. Reason his 6. reason Fr. Io. Not proved but pretended See my Answer here following here in this your 6. Reason you bee not directly contraty to your self as I hue obserued in your 2. Reason Pag. 85. For you say here Pag. 104. That not the Samaritans but the Iewes were then by Christ counted the true worshippers of God heires of saluation Ioh. 4.22 But in your Second Reason Pag. 82. you say They that teach for doctrine mens precepts as ‡ Mat. 15.9 there Christ saith the Iewes then did those in particuler are no true Christians nor their assemblies true Churches Therfore you inferre or else you pretend it that those particuler Ievves were not then true vvorshippers nor their Assembles true Churches vvhich is a flat contradiction Or else what is But if you meane not this of the Ievves then you abuse the scripture and vs turning it cleane from them vvhom in your Reason you speake of and vvhom Christ therein expresly meaneth Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason MAny such things Mr Iacob I have often heard Yet God forbid that I should justify you or your estate He that justifyeth the vvicked and he that coÌ„demneth the just even they both are abomination to the Lord. Therefore dare I not eyther justify your Churches wicked estate and persecution Prov. 17.15 or condemne the righteous servants of God which witnes the truth against you But you Mr Iacob have done both in this Reply of yours the abomination whereof will further appeare in the discussing of the particulers hereafter Words in deed you have ynough as thinking belike that at least you have some show on your side but they are all to no purpose save against your selves I will now examine them from point to point First for the Reason it self the Proposition of the first Syllogisme being so cleare as you can with no colour deny it you come therefore to the latter Where you pretend first to set it downe and then to aunswer it Yet in deed you do neither Thus first you set it downe They that vvorship God after a false manner are no true Christians But put on your spectacles or if you please your eye of glasse and trye agayne if you can read any better He that hath but the halfe eye you speake of sometymes may see I propounded it thus Pag. 106. The people and Assemblies whose ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the couenants holy things and seruice of God do not appertaine This you see is the latter Proposition Why then did you not thus propound it Why do you still transforme my words and Arguments into others of your owne Is it because you can find no aunswer to them as I have propounded them Or because men should see in deed that to be in your self which you do vainly obiect vnto me viz That you do sophisticate and can do nothing els in argumentation Towching your answer to the Proposition If you had kept my words what needed I pray you this vaine distinction of yours Speciallie where there is no ambiguitie at all Was there ever any professing to worship the true God in Christ that did worship him after a false maner totally that is in all the particulars of their worship Look to the Ethiopian Churches to the Papists to anie other false worshippers of God professing Christ and see if their case be such Do they not hold and preach much truth Do they not baytize in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost c. If you say where the constitution of a Church establisheth a false worship of God never prescribed by himself there though they seem to have some good things yet by reasoÌ„ of such constitution and practise their whole worship is false before God totally then say I also your case is such and therefore so of vs to be esteemed Thus if there be any thing in your pretended distinction it is against your self But you have another clause in it of worshipping God after a false maner fundamentally This you say you do not in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies and therefore you auouch confidently that such may be true Christians and that the contrarie hereof is no lesse then blasphemy c. 1. First Mr Iacob this is but your bare affirmation without any warraÌ„t produced from the Scripture 2. Secondly you say such may be true Christians whereas for the point in hand you should have said all such as towching the Church-constitution wherein they stand are true Christians If you thus affirme prove it by the word of God If you cannot it will appeare to be blasphemy rather in your self so to affirme then in others
intolerable blame and foule error whereof you speak As for example you professe the forbidding of meats and mariage at certaine tymes the worship prescribed in your Service-book and other the like by read prayer devised Homilyes Saints dayes Communion to one alone women to baptize Ministery of Priests and Prelates Apocrypha and the rest before mētioned Pag. 63. c. Are these after the rule of the written Law Next followed the Assumption to be aunswered which was this Such is the ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblyes of England as they worship God after a false maner Pag. 106. never appointed by him self nor allowed in his vvord This was proved by your confusion of People counterfet Ministery Service c. Now neyther this Assumption nor proof thereof did or do you denie So here againe you yeeld the cause And whereas you were told of hiding the fowle heap of your Abominations vnder the terme of Ceremonies you neither denie it nor amend it but do still vse the same fraude Mind it and amend it hereafter Now where you say it is a iust defence of your Ministery vvorship estate to be as tovvching the substance and foundation of Christianity sound and acceptable to God if your Assemblies throughout the Land have not their consciences convicted therein You may blush for shame to speak so sencelesslie If you meane that your Ministerie worship and estate is not in truth of the substance and foundation of Christianitie then by your owne words you stand in a straunge and fearfull estate besides that you speak not to the point in hand and so there is in your speach no sence at all Or if you meane that howsoever your Ministery worship and estate be whether approved of God or not whether Antichristian or whatsoever els yet your Church-constitution is for substance and foundation of Christianitie sound and acceptable to God then is your speach againe most senceles and absurd For how is it possible that your Ministerie worship and estate should be condemned by God Antichristian or the like and yet your Church-constitution either have the substance and foundation of Christianitie or be in such a way sound and acceptable to God To be disallowed of God and to be acceptable to him are contraries Finally howsoever your meaning be yet still your speach is senceles and vntrue For * Luk. 12.47.48 Hos 4 1-6 2 Thes 1.8 Rev. 14.9.10.11 sinne is sinne before God and so to be estemed of vs though not so grievous before as after conviccion And mens consciences often are convinced when they will not acknowledge it but withstand the truth notwithstanding ‡ Esa 6.9.10 Act. 14.2 28 23-27 Ier. 17.9.10 For both which see the Scriptures here quoted Which refute your assertion sufficientlie Besides that you have without all sence fancyed to your self such a maner of conviction as cannot eyther be knowen or expected Of which point I have spoken before Pag 42.43 How straunge is it also that you say next you knovv this is no iust defence of your vvhole Ministery estate and maner of vvorship vvhich you never intended you say much lesse professed to iustify How agrees this with the title of your book which you call A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Or will you seem to plead for that which you know can not be iustifyed Or will you have vs admit of an vnjust defence For your self confesse this is not a iust one Or is the Office Entrance Administration and Maintenance of some of your Ministers lawfull of others vnlawful and so likewise some parts of your estate and worship For you say here this defends not the vvhole Deale plainelie then Mr Iacob and shew which you hold lawfull which vnlawfull and your proof of both So will appeare I doubt not even by your self both that our separation is just and of necessity to be made from your Ministery vvorship c. and that your defence of them is most silly and senceles That which you speak of Aarons line I said before was a mistaking now I say it is a grosse error And you may be ashamed thus to hide it whenas you should rather acknowledge it when it is shewed you As for the meaning Pag. 105. which you have now coined and newlie added in the margent your words will not beare it Let others judge Thus the defence you make for your self is as absurd as that which you make for your Church After this you are earnest to perswade vs that the vvord of God though it be as plaine and full in it self yet is not so plaine for our vnderstanding vse novv as it vvas for the Ievves vnder the Lavv. An assertion most false most impious such as the very Papists I think would be ashamed of Was it ever heard afore that the Gospell of Christ should be more obscure for our vnderstanding and vse now then the Law of Moses was for the Iewes then Was not Christ think you as willing as able as carefull to explane it for our vnderstanding and vse as Moses was for theirs Or doth not Christ give his Spirit to his people now aswel as he did then Or hath he taken away those dimme shadowes and ceremonies to bring now a cloud of darkenes in stead thereof Or is it false which the Prophets foretold and the Apostles testify to be accomplished for abundance of knowledge and vnderstāding in the tyme of the Gospell far above that which was in the tyme of the Law Compare together these Scriptures following and see if the contrary to that you say be not most true Esa 11.9 Ier. 31.33.34 with 2 Cor. 3. cap. 4.3.4 Heb. 8.10.11 Ioel. 2.28.29 vvith Act. 2.17.18 Hab. 2.2 2 Pet. 1.19 1 Ioh. 5.20 Rev. 1.3 22.18.19 But you pretend three reasons of this your assertion So also did Saul of his action 1 Sam. 13.11.12 Neither was Ieroboam himself without colour for his devised worship as I noted before But this is the auncient cloke of sinne with which it hath ben woont alway to hide it self even from the tyme of our first parents Gen. 3.6.12.13 And tell me your self If pretences would serve what Schismatickes Hereticks Apostates factious or contentious men ever was there that had not store of such so both deceiuing others and being deceived themselves Yet let vs now examine yours You pretend 1 discontinuance a long season of the simple offices of Pastors Teachers Elders and continuance of the Prelacy all that vvhile So might Israell have alledged 2. Chron. 15.3 Had it therefore ben of waight And this pretence might far better serve the Papist then it can you who confesse Rome to be Babylon and know that your Prelacy Priesthood and worship came from thence not from Ierusalem Besides how will you prove this cōtinuance and discontinuance to have ben so manie thousand yeares as you speak of Yet if it were the word of God is still as plaine to
abhominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 For now I would know of you who are so deep a Clerke how Antichrists Church and Religion should iustly be accounted a mystery of iniquitie and truely be said to speak Lies in hypocrisy also prively to bring in Damnable heresies and to haue a Shevv of godlines if they did absolutly and vvholy departe from the faith and not onelie frō some points thereof But over and above all it seemeth by this reason that not onelie the Apostles were mistaken in giuing vs markes how to know false teachers and false religions But also Christ himselfe when he said †Mat. 7.15 Bevvare of false Prophetes vvhich come to you in sheepes clothing but invvardly are ravening vvolves And againe †Mat. 24.23.24 If any shall say vnto you Loe here is Christ or there beleeve it not For there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shevv great signes and vvonders so that if it vvere possible they should deceive the very elect Now if they should totally depart frō the faith what sheepes clothing I pray you should they have to come in Or how should either themselves be said to come in the name of Christ affirming their Religion to be Christs and shewing signes and wonders to draw men therevnto Or the elect be in such vnspeakable danger to be deceived by them This might suffice to shew the falsehood and impietie of your answer But yet I will note a few things mo therein First it being graunted that the popish forbidding of Mariage and meats so they were no worse doth not make them depaxters frō the faith totally yet tell vs if holding never so manie truthes besides and yet forbidding these they could by the word of God truely be said in that estate to hold the faith of Christ and to be true Christians 1 Tim. 4.1.3 If they could not as the Apostle * testifieth then is your answer in this respect also nothing to the purpose but against your self both for the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and for the English Hierarchy and other abominations among you received from the Papistes which vnder colour of this answer you would defend Next see in Bales Votaries and in the Acts and monuments c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage and what fowle superstition the forbidding of meats hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichrist And tell me then what man fearing God durst once open his mouth for such divelish doctrines and estate Againe where you say The Papists fall from Christ in other poincts besides the aforsaid Namely 1. The Papall supremacie 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by vvorkes vvhich England novv is far from Tell vs first whether in this sence the Papists can for these be said to depart from the faith totally If they can not what weight is there in this for defēce of your estate that the Papists could not alledge for themselves viz that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy Secondly tell vs whether there are no other poincts but these three in the Papists Religion which make them in their estate to be departers from the faith and consequentlie false Christians and false Churches If there be as you can not deny of what weight then is your answer to defend the present constitution of your people and assemblies seeing there are divers other things besides these that do and may cause that you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches in that estate Many “ Servetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore have and at this day do reject these three aforsaid Are they therefore in their estate to be accounted true Chrestians or true Churches Thirdly your manner of reasoning heer for your defence is as if the Adulterers to justify their course of life should alledge thus We are 1 no Blasphemers 2 no Persecutors 3 no Murtherers as such and such are therefore we depart not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in Yet the Scripture sayth * Iam. 2.10.11 whosoever shall keep the vvhole Lavv and yet faileth in one poinct is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Novv though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lavv and contrariwise So that whatsoever sinnes the Adulterer be far from yet as Salomon saith cōmitting adultery vvith a vvoman he fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule Prov. 6.32 The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers who whatsoever sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a vvhoring after their owne inventions embracing the bosomes of strange vvomen and drinking on their cup of fornications Num. 15.39 vvith Prov. 5.20 and Rev. 17.4 Ier. 4.18 Fourthly shew vs sufficient warrant from the Scriptures why setting these three aside the Hierarchy and other popish abominations received among you can not be judged to make you in such estate departers from the faith and therefore false Christians and false Churches whatsoever truthes you hold besides Num. 16.1.2 c. Corah Dathan Abiram and their partakers were far from the Abominations of the Heathen they held also the poincts of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onelie from them and departing onely from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof notwithstanding they * vers 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded Yet will you not deny I trow but they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If you should the Scripture is witnesse against you Num. 16.26 Now compare case with case and tyme with tyme and you shall find the estate of your people and Assemblies to be far more grievous As hath ben shewed alreadie in the Second Exception before and in other Treatises to which we have yet received no answer viz The ansvver to Maister A.H. The 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assemblies of England To conclude this poinct if your Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so long as you reteine that poisonfull leaven of your Hierarchy and vvorship we must tell you as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That †2. King 4.39.40 a little poison bringeth death vnto the whole pot of potage A 1 Cor. 5.6 litle leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump And Eccl. 10.1 a fevv dead flyes cause the oynctemēt of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed your abominations are not a few but swarme in abundance among you Some whereof see before Pag. 63. c. In the next place fearing belike that the evidence of “ 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 this Scripture could not by these shiftes of yours be avoided
cause also it may be you were the more willing to passe by them being in deed afrayd and vnable to deale with them But to let this passe let others now iudge by that which hath ben said on whom the sclaunder lyeth And note you by the way that it is the common woont of sclaunderers to impute that to others vnder some pretence or other which in very deed they do themselves yea and that often with an impudent forehead Of vour vaine distinction of fundamentall errors and of the necessitie which lyeth vpon you to answer the particulars which I obiected about the Papists and your selves I have spoken ‡ here before If it stop not your mouth as I suppose it will yet let it teach you at least to take heed pag. 144. c. that your next Replie be lesse vaine and more pertinent then these former have ben In the last place when all other shifts fayle you would hale in againe to help at a dead lift those good but dead men Mr Cranmer Ridley c. whom you do neuer linne calling vpon as if you would give them no rest till you had brought them vp even from the dead to beare witnesse on your side But I have shewed before so great differēce between your case and theirs as they can not help you at all And now I tell you further as Christ hath said of old Luk. 16.31 If you heare not Moses and the Prophets neyther would you be perswaded though one rose frō the dead againe All these things considered I hope in your next you will either by the word of God iustify that you depart not from the faith in your leitourgy Hierarchy confusion of people forbidding of Meats and Mariage persecuon of the truth c. or els yeeld that in such estate you do in deed depart frō the faith and therefore cannot therein by the word of God be estemed true Christians Chap 14. The Eight Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumptiō afoersaid Fr. Iohnson IF the Apostle account them denyers of the faith and worse then Infidels and consequently no true Christians who though they doe hold other truthes of the Gospell yet provide not for their household Then how are such to be accounted who though they professe some truthes of the Gospell yet are not true worshippers of God but execute or submit vnto a false Ministery vvorship governement ecclesiasticall Which to be th' estate of the Ministery and people of the Church of England appeareth as aforesaid in their Canōs Articles Book of Cōmon prayer c. But the first is true 1 Tim. 5.8 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 8. Reason THis your Eight Reason is thus much viz. Like as it is for a professor not to provide for his houshold so is it to hold the Hierarchy c. But that is to deny the faith and to be worse then an infidell Ergo so are we in England Those very answers to the last Reason do fully and flattly satisfy this also Eyther against the Assumption namely that it is not meant simply of denying the faith nor ‡ I meane Fūdamentally as in the last Reas before I have shewed wholy but in this poinct onely Or els the Proposition as being meant of such as neglect their families against the light of their consciences and the manifest instinct of nature Er. Iohnson his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 8. Reason FOr aunswer of this Reason you refer vs both for Proposition and Assumption to your answer to the last Reason But there I have proved those your aunswers to be vntrue Therefore yet we have no aunswer either to that Reason or this As for your new meaning now and not before noted here in the margent although it help you no more then the other yet tell me in your next where you learned thus to confound things that differ so much one from another For now your Reply to both these Reasons is such as if wholy and fundamentally were all one Or els what have you said But this Mr Iacob is to confound not to distinguish as you pretended before Pag. 135. 142. Men may erre fundamentally in some points of the faith who yet erre not wholy in all Pag. 92. 136. 142. The Papists at this day you confesse †your self do erre fundamentally in some things as in Iustification by works the Popes supremacy the Masse c. Will you therefore say they erre wholy in all Do they not howsoever they erre otherwise yet notwithstanding hold also these and manie other truths viz That there is but one God and three persons in the Godhead That he made heaven and earth and all other things and that of nothing That the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost took flesh of the Virgin Mary That the bodyes of the dead shall rise againe at the last day c. Likewise for the Corinthians and Galathians of old Pag. 28. 92 of whom also you cōfesse that they erred fundamentally in some points as about the Resurrection Circumcision c Shall we therefore think that they held not anie one point of truth but erred wholy in all The Scripture it self doth witnes the contrary as may be seen throughout the Epistles sent to those Churches How sencelesse then and confused is this your new coyned meaning Towching which I thought to adde thus much here besides that which I spake concerning it in the last Reason before Let the Reader moreover observe that both there and here and in your Reply to the Reason following the power of the truth so prevaileth against you as you cannot but graunt you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery worship and governement ecclesiasticall As appeareth in your Canons book of Common prayer Articles Iniunctiōs persecution c. All which beeing mentioned as proofes thereof in these severall reasons when now they should be defended if you would maintaine your standing behold you are as mute as a fish therein And not that onely but in your Reply to the next Reason following Pag. 156. you graunt that in these things we may and ought to separate from you Which is directlie to yeeld vs the cause Thus soundlie you answer vs and dispute for your selves H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 8. Reason TO this your Eight Reason and defence thereof I aunswer as before if you take the Apostle to meane such neglecters of their houshold as deny the faith not Fundamentally nor against the instinct of nature but only against conuenient Christian providence and no othervvise then I deny your Assumption If the Apostle meane of such as neglect their families against the light of conscience and natures instinct then I deny the Proposition This I say because the Apostle may very well meane both these but in diverse measure and proportion of sinne but then this concerneth not vs Even so as I have said to your former Reason Note also if this were
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
And “ afterward vpon the 16. of the Revelation Ibid. vpon Rev. 16.12 expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessioÌ„s and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith thus In England by the ♣ Marke by this of vvhat time estate he speaketh even of such vvhen the Gospell vvas preched the Monasteries suppressed c. Gospell preaching have many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all things brought vnto Christs cleare institution A syncere Christian order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe with as many Heathnish observations as ever they did as cruelly harted and as bloody mynded are they yet as ever they were afore No mischief vnsought to hold in the waters Marke how Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lincolne worke let vs also adde Canterburie with such other pleasant disposed Euphratines But be of good confort and pray in the meane tyme. For the holy Ghost promiseth heer that they shall wither away with all that the heaveÌ„ly Father hath not plaÌ„ted All which generatioÌ„ will the Lords breath coÌ„sume c. And to speake also of others in former tymes Iohn Wickleff held †Actes and Mon. 5. edit pag. 414. b. That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Canons c. be disciples of Antichrist William Swinderby said * Ibid. pag. 431. b. that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of living or teaching or Lavves making contrary to Christs living his Lavves or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of christ but by Christ and his Lavves is very Antichrist adversarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Sir Iohn Oldcastle Lord Cobham witnessed ′ Ibid. â—ag 518. a. b. that the Bishops Priests Prelates and Monkes are the body of that great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy are the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Iohn Claidon burnt in Smithfield professed ‡ Ibid. pag. 588. b. that the Archbishops and Bishops speaking indifferently are the seats of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth above other people in the darke Caves of errors and heresies And that the Bishops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally * In his treatises called The obedience of a Christian man The practise of prel William Tindall and “ In his Preface before his Antithesis betvveen Christ the pope Iohn Frith published That Archbishops Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officials Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichrists themselves These are the speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs in former ages wherevnto divers other such like might be added But these may suffice for the matter in hand Now compare therewith the publique profession and practise of England even as it is by law at this day and see whether your owne proofes be not so many witnesses against your selves But if it were so that the reformed Churches vve our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme gave allowance of your present estate and Church coÌ„stitution what would this help you when as the vvord of God condemneth you as we have shewed in the Reasons aforsaid and defence thereof Wherevnto if you will still iustifie your estate we require direct answer from point to point and that from the Scriptures which only can stablish the conscience Furthermore that the truth it self and your estate may better appeare what it is as also that you may not turne away or obscure the truth by your shiftes and evasions as your manner is I will here propound a few questions concerning the points now in controversie desiring your plaine and syncere answer therevnto by the word of God as you will answer to him at that day The questions are these Seven questions conteining the vvhole controversy betvveen vs yet vnansvvered 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their Callings Workes and Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as aforesaid Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticanons Priests Deacons Archdeacons Doctors of divinitie Batchelers of divinitie Chaplens or Housepriests Commissaries Officialls Proctors Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercenarie preachers Churchwardens Side men Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those Offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as is aforsaid or no 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration maintenance which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his Church above named or no 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God and ioined togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of this Land be such or no 5. Whether the Sacraments being seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred to anie other but to the faithfull and their seed or in anie other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies of England at this day 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these Assemblies be the true worspip of God commaunded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7. Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in Religion only to receive and submit vnto that Ministery Worship order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appoincted to his Church Or whether any may receive and ioine vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequentlie whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioine to the former ordeined by Christ and not to the latter devised vy man even the man of sinne for the
worship and service of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire your direct answer with proofes of your answers from the scriptures According to which word if you speak not as I said before so I say againe Esa 8.20 it is because there is no light in you And now to conclude where you would in the end of your writing being not able to answer our Reasons fasten vpō vs some strange passion yea meere desperatnes for separating from you and answering of you as we have done we refer it to the godly and discreet Reader to iudge by that which hath ben said on both parts whether it bee not your selves that are taken with the strange passion you speake of and driven therevnto by meer desperatnes when for to mainteyne your owne estate you will haue the scriptures to fall and exalt the Church and Magistrate above Christ himself even flesh and blood above God blessed for ever Your practise whereof see before Pag. 28. 91. 100. 105. 135. c. But for this all your vnrighteous dealing against the truth people of God we leaue you to the Lord who searcheth the heart and tryeth the raynes to giue euery man according to his wayes according to the fruite of his workes That is to them that by cōtinuance in weldoing seek glorie honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth obey vnrighteousnes indignation wrath Ier. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6.7.8 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say every one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Third Fallacia equiuocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 saying separate from such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desperate conscience and then if that appeare separate from such wholy Or els erring in simplicitie of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate nor wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacy and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Mast Cranmer the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie like wise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Nither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very professiō and doctrine wee canot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluatiō while they so remaine but indeed very Antichrists as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand◠namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian As it doth not Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were easily certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that have many probable seeming reasons alleadge them publish them for the Praelacy against you are vnanswered And yet will you say they are conuicted those infinite others depēding on them I say cōuicted aswell as those Iewes What if these speake euill of that which you hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme Are they all yea all the land therefore abolished from Christ Might not all this at least be sayd of the whole estate of the Iewes in Christes time and after aswell yet they ceased not to bee Churches why then are you so partiall against vs Lastly you would shew Reasons why the Apostles wholy separated not from the Iewes Synagogues after Christ Act. 13.14 c. Which you will in no wise haue to serue vs. But alas for all your Exceptions against vs you haue neuer a reason but one and that is petitio principij That wee were neuer separated from the world nor set in the way order of Christ but in the confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministerie c. were neuer the ordinances of God c. This is but crauing the whole question And I haue refuted these quarells in a short writing hereafter following about the comparison of the Ministerie with Mariage which yet you haue no leysure to answer this whole three yeares togeather and vpwarde And further you doe not shew any vtter and apsolute separation from the whole Church of the Iewes a great while after Christ but the contrarie is seene Act. 21.23.24.26 though from some one or two synagogues they separated after full experience of their obstinate malitious resistance of the truth which we deny not Touching the Conclusion In the cōclusion of my former Reply to proue your vtter separation from vs a Paradox
far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars †before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell †1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in †1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
Church in their Masse and Ministery as with yours in your worship and Hierarchy But further by this aunswer you yeeld that the Martyrs spake and wrote against your Church estate Which being so whether do you or we I pray you the better You in following the error of their practise Or we in receyving the truth of their testimonie And then if all that you say be graunted is it ought but this that you have the weaknes and sinne of their practise for a cloke of your standing in evill whereas we have the truth and soundnes of their iudgement for our walking in that which is good Now let others iudge which of vs follow them best and have the best interest in them And let it also be mynded that they then comming newlie out of the darknes of Poperie and being exercised also with other points of that religion neither did nor could so consider of this matter as synce their tyme in this clearer light it hath in our dayes ben discussed Lastlie if you will have this answer of yours go for currant then will I by like reason prove that you may also submit to the Popes authority and receive all the corruptions of the Romish Church And albeit that which I have alreadie said of the auncient Martyrs before be sufficient for proof hereof yet will I shew it you further thus The Protestants you know do vsually alledg against the Popes Antichristian authority and other corruptions of that Church the sayings of Bernard Beda c. Suppose now the Papists should answer as you do here This maketh stronger against you seing for all that yet they themselues refused not to yeeld to the Popes supremacy and to partake with this Church as being Christs c. What would you reply againe Either you must say as the truth is that this answer is wandring and frivolous or els you must needs confesse that by this reason of yours you may also receive the Pope and all that popery which is alreadie cast out of England and communicate therewith Which I pray God be not the issue of this your pleading for and partaking with the remnants of Antichrist yet held in your Church To that where I demaunded If it were so that the reformed Churches we our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme had given allowance of your present estate and Church-constitution what would this help you when as the word of God condemneth you c. You aunswer that those witnesses are sufficient for this that we hold a Paradox So the testimony of Man if you had it is of more force with you then the warrant of Gods word And whatsoever the Scripture saith yet to you it is a Paradox if it be gainsaid by the reformed Churches c. Blush for shame Mr Iacob and fear any more to publish such godles assertions and shameles Paradoxes All your clipping and perverting of my words will not help you Neyther your new supply of the whole Churches iudgement practise with all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300 or 1400 yeares Chrisostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom Austen Ambrose c. As if they had knowen and practised the Antichristian abominations now had in your Church But when you bring proof of this your lavish speach it will then be tyme ynough to aunswer it In the meane tyme heare what Mr Tindall that faithfull Martyr sayd speaking of the Prelates and Priests in his age for their so alledging the Fathers as you do As for the holy Doctors saith he as Augustine Hierome Cyprian Chrysostomus and Bede will they not heare If they wrote any thing negligently as they were men that draw they cleane contrary to their meaning and thereof triumphe they Those Doctors knew of none authority that one Bishop should have above another neyther thought or once dreamed that ever any such should be This is Mr Tindall his speach and observation Which you may mynd I note it now for this that you may see how your Forefathers alledged the Doctors and how it stands you vpon well to mynd what proof is brought from them whether it be for this point which here he nameth or for anie other corruptions of Antichrist retayned among you Some of which I have rehearsed * before in particular Pag. 63. c. for which I will expect your proof from such antiquity as you speak of ad Kalendas Graecas in deed never And yet I know that both 1400 yeares synce and before also they began to declyne very much But Antichrist notwithstanding came not of a long tyme after to that height and impiety wherein now he is to be seen and felt both in your Church and in your mother of Rome Note also that when all is said that can be in this matter it is but a Popish shift to fly from the Scriptures to the Fathers and an impious Paradox to exalt their sayings who are knowen to have erred in manie things above the word of God which alone is the rule of truth and can not lye at all Finally you say that to try you I propound a many of questions Yet they are but seven in all In deed I think it doth and will try both you and your fellow Priests to aunswer them Such superfluous stuffe they are And have you not read too Iob. 32.3 how ‡ Iobs frends condemned him and yet could fynd no answer Apply it to your selves and your dealing with vs. But you say you would first have vs cleare this present question and our reasons thereabout Well besides that is already done the deciding of these few questions will fully and plainly do it Let others iudge if it would not And mynd you then what you have answered To shut vp all you tell vs aforehand you have no leysure to meddle further Very like so You have leysure ynough to write book after book to no purpose yet you have not so much as to aunswer a few short questions which may end all the controversie between vs. He that can not see how you would shift of the matter and yet labour to withold the truth in vnrighteousnes what doth he see The Lord open your eyes Mr Iacob that your self may see and mynd it As for others that be seduced by you and the rest of your Prophets teaching lyes let them in tyme afore it be to late apply vnto you and themselves in such estate that which is written The leaders of the people cause them to erre and they that are led by them are devoured Esa 9.16 Therefore also let them all even whosoever feare God and will be assured of his mercy give no rest to their soules vntill with the Prophet they can say in truth of heart and shew it forth in their practise My portion O Lord I have said to keep thy words I have considered my wayes turned my feet into thy testimonyes I made hast delayed not to keep thy commaundements I have refrayned my feet from every evill way
them be yet remayning in your worship Hierarchy confusion Canons Licences Dispensations Rev. 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Excommunications c. with ♣ which no man may have spirituall communion vnder payne of eternall wrath that if it be the will of God her Highnes may be his instrument to suppresse and abolish these also and to establish the whole truth of God according to his word And further that she may take to her owne Civill vses the Lordships and possessions of the Prelates and other Clergy as God hath foretold and appointed should be done with them Rev. 17.16 19.17.18 And as King Henry the eight her Maiestyes Father of famous memory did with the Abbats Monks Fryers Nunnes and with their possessions and revennewes Which happy worke by what Princes soever it be done as certaynly will come to passe for the Lord of hostes hath spoken it it will greatlie redound to the glory of God the honour of themselves the free passage of the Gospell the peace of the Church and benefit of the whole Cōmon wealth The Lord therefore hasten and accōplish it Yea true and strong is the Lord who hath spoken and will performe it Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. This is our mynd which you desier to know concerning reformatiō commaunded and compelled by the Magistrate Where note withall that it is the work of God onelie to adde to his Church such as he will save And therefore that it is not in the power of Princes or anie Man whatsoever to perswade the conscience and make members of the Church but that this must be left to God alone who onelie can do it Act. 2.47 11.21 Gen. 9.27 1 Cor. 12.13 14.24.25 Zach. 8.23 Ier. 32.38.39.40 Princes may and ought within their Dominions to abolish all false worship and all false Ministeryes whatsoever and to establish the true worship and Ministery appointed by God in his word commaunding and compelling their subiects to come vnto and practise no other but this Yet must they leave it vnto God to perswade the conscience and to adde to his Church from tyme to tyme such as shal be saved But with you in these things you know it is quite contrary Thus then neyther the examples of the aforesayd Kings of Iudah are in your case fitlie alledged neyther is it of anie waight if all your people and Assemblies in the Land willinglie openly advisedly submitted to whatsoever was proclaymed at the beginning of her Highnes reygne Vnles you could prove that Religion worship Ministery c. then proclaymed and still vsed to be by God prescribed in his word Which still you take for graunted when it is the very thing which we denie and you should proue if possibly you could And what if here I should put you in mynd how you might more fitlie alledge for your case the keeping of the Statutes of Omry and the like Micah 6.16 But I will leave this for your next Reply And then also tell vs what truth it is you speak of that was proclaymed at the beginning of her Maiestyes raygne whereof the people had such aduizement notice as you pretend from November 17. to Midsomer following For the book of Articles * heretofore so much pressed by your self Pag. 3. c was so far frō being proclaymed then as it was not agreed vpon till the yeare 1562. Which was at least fower or five yeares after the tyme you speak of here Now to proceed you tell vs that no open professed Papists Atheists nor other Hereticks were then receyved into your communion c. But how can we beleev you when D. Whitgift your Archprelate of Canterbury a man of as great reckning and of more experience in your Church then Mr Iacob tels vs the cleane contrary yea and prints it too even then when he writeth in defence of your present estate viz †Whitg book Pag. 176. 178 639. 643. that now the Church is full of Papists Atheists Drunkerds whoremongers c. Even the Prelates themselves I perceive do in some things deale more syncerelie then you Mr Iacob and are nothing so shameles Yet I know that some others of your coat which seek reformation deale herein as plainelie as the Prelates and far more faithfullie then you For example they confesse and publish that you have ‡ Sermon on Rom. 12. swarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erroneous and hereticall Sectaryes the Family of love and such like Another spareth not to avouch more particularly ♣ State of the Church of England between Diot Tert. c. that some Doctors of the Arches be the same men they were in Queen Maryes tyme. Others also speaking of your Ecclesiasticall courts write thus ‡ Ad◠to the Parliament God deliver all Christians out of this Antichristian tyranny where the Iudges Advocates and Proctors for the most part are Papists c. Thus your owne men of all sorts beare witnes against you But to let their testimony alone who knoweth not that the whole Land being polluted with most Popish and wicked Idolatry in Q. Maryes dayes they were all straightway after without repentance or the word preached going before received into the body of your Church and constreyned to become members thereof Who with their seed vnto this day do so remayne and are commonlie called the Church of England Neither will that clause of open professed be anie starting whole for you as it may be you dreame All know well ynough it is no matter how open and professed they be so as they will be conformable to come to Church once a moneth and heare your Divine service book Did Mr W. Smith your great acquaintance never tell you Mr Wroth Iustice. how ‡ one of the Cōmissioners themselves when he was called before them said vnto him Come to Church and be a Divell if thou wilt That which you say of ignorant men received in a generall reformation if you meane of some having far lesse knowledge then others being also vnable eyther well to expresse their owne mynd or to defend the truth against an adversary I deny it not Otherwise know that all who are received members of the Church being of yeares are to be such as in their measure lesse or more have learned Christ and do willinglie submit to his Gospell having heard and knowen the grace of God therein Ephes 4.7.20.21 2 Cor. 9.13 Col. 1.5.6 Act. 2.41 17.3.4 Esa 44.5 Zac. 8.20.21.22.23 And so questionles it was in the time of Hezechiah c. For which see these Scriptures 2 Chron. 29.31 30.2.3.4.11.12.13 2 King 23.2.3 2 Chron. 15.15 Besides that the Iewes did long before Hezekiahs time vpō knowledge enter covenant with the Lord to have him to be their God and they to be his people Exod. 19.7.8 Deut. 29.10.11.12.13 For the notorious dissolute and wicked you plead that some were reclaymed all vndertook another professiō and a new appearāce of Christianity c. Which how false
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes