vnder Sense and so can bee no Marke at all Sophisticall for that of that which we confesse to be a true Attribute of the Church hee would conclude a discerning Marke But all Attributes are not Markes Now Eriphilus refell mine Argument or graunt mee I pray you some respite from burning for without merite you haue al-readie burned too manie vpon humour Philadelphus You could not away Eriphilus with my Sonnets but as I thinke Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking Philomathes But I pray you Eubulus how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill and I can not denye but builded vpon confessed Grounds and how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute as you call it of the Church is apprehended by Fayth yet seeing that the moste approoved Fathers in their Disputations agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes doe presse them sore with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them it would appeare that they had some reason to doe so and that even Vniversalitie is in some respect a Marke of the true Church Neyther see I howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument agaynst you brought from this Note except you will condemne those Famous and Auncient Fathers also as having vaynlie and sophisticallie reasoned for the Trueth Eubulus To cleare you Philomathes of all doubt heerein and to free our selues from anie eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse where-fore we would reject this Reason or of anie vnreverend Opinion of those Fathers who as you truelie affirme in some Cases and Respectes did vse it the aequivocation of this word Catholicke must be opened vp where-by your Doctours willinglie illude and where-by your simple ones are vnwittinglie deceived For the Catholicke Church is of the Fathers so called eyther properlie and absolutelie or improperlie and but in some speciall Respect and Relation Absolutelie and most properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole number of what-so-ever tyme or place who haue beene are or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST their Head and liue in Him by His Spirit whether heere on Earth fighting or hence in Heaven triumphing Absolutelie and lesse properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole militant companie heere on Earth of what-so-ever Kinred Tongue or Nation vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession whether Hypocrites or true Professours whether pure or corrupt Worshippers whether Orthodox or Hereticall as even Bellarmine argueth Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases shee is believed and in her Vniversalitie falleth not vnder Sense Improperlie agayne and in opposite Relation the Church is called CATHOLICKE for two Respects The one In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes which was limited within the compasse of one People and of one Region the Christian Church no more so confined but spread indifferentlie over all is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH Neyther thus because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie or moste parte of Men embrace the Gospell but because the Entrie is opened and offered indifferentlie vnto all The other Respect was the opposite Relation to hereticall Companies separating them-selues by Errour from the common Bodie of the Church Trueth mayntayned there-in And in this last Respect it is that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church retayning Trueth in relation to particular hereticall Companies the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH And in this Sense opposing ordinarilie to arrogant men the Authoritie Multitude Consent Succession c. of the Catholicke Church as you haue alleadged Philomathes But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning two things are carefullie to bee marked whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie and prudentlie to haue vsed this Argument where by your men now shall bee seene evidentlie and impudentlie to abuse it The first is that state and condition of the Church wherein this Argument hath place according as it was when the Fathers vsed it The second is what weight or moment the Fathers placed in it The state of the Church then was in common pure holding Trueth and by the force thereof purging or expelling all in-bred or accressing evils or Heresies So as then though by an improper Speach yet the Communalitie of the Church keeping Trueth in relation to a few Declyners might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church and her authoritie might well haue beene opposed vnto them But who in a plaine contrarie state and condition of the Church when Errour obtaineth in common and Trueth is afflicted and borne downe yet without consideration of the altered State and Condition would still vse the same reason from Multitude and what-so-ever or how-so-ever an obtaining State hee were a ridiculous Sophister confounding diverse and distinct times and cases To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus where-in evill was not tollerated to the state of the Church in Smirna where-in Heretickes waxed prowde and despysed the abject state of true Professours it were sophisticall but much more sophisticall to reason from the state in Ephesus to the state in Pergamus when the true Church dwelt even where Satan's Throne was knowne to GOD though hid from the worldlie sort To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne treading the Moone and crowned with twelue Starres to the same Woman lurking in the Wildernesse it concludeth not for as in the first Case the Fathers had reason and did wyselie to convince by all Advantages so whyle the Case is clearlie altered according as by Scripture was fore-tolde and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne even in the Temple when the Evill or Gangrene in the bodie and having even over-gone the Bodie in common will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches and wyselie to distinguish deceitfullie-confounded Tymes and Cases and properlie to pleade That the Gangrene in the Bodie and even affecting and over-going the Bodie in common yet is but an Adherent or accressing Evill in but not of the Bodie and That the healthsome remnant retayning the Lyfe of the Head and by vertue there-of resisting the over-going Gangrene is the true Catholicke Church And this altered Condition of Tyme and of the Church in tyme which maketh the Argument some-tyme pertinentlie vsed to bee nowe ridiculous besides that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it the FATHERS did see the working on of it and wee haue aboundantlie often prooved and still offer to prooue it It is cleare also by that other Poynt which I propounded to bee observed in this reasoning of the FATHERS namelie What Weyght or Moment they placed in that same Argument VVhere-in they even professe That they vsed it not as an infallible demonstratiue Marke but as a Motiue vvhich beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH was worthie to bee regarded but which eyther without TRVETH or agaynst TRVETH should carrie no Credite This is evident by Augustine vsing this same Argument agaynst Faustus Manichaeus and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church Multitude Antiquitie Succession c.
but first in health healthsom vigour next by degrees contracting sicknes at length heavilie infected affected afflicted with that disease whereof you Eriphilus are dangerously sick Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also now is convalescing through the Medicine of the Word Spirit and alyke in all these cases was ever is visible seen also according to her distinct conditions in diverse tymes Neyther haue wee another Church or a new Church as your Doctors would perswade the Simple but the same Church a renewed Church Neither haue we forsaken the Vnitie Cōmunion of the Church within which wherof we stil are but we haue forsaken Babel in the Church which hath ◅firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure For howsoever the sicke Bodie was the Church yet the Sicknesse oppugning and wasting the lyfe there-of was never the Church and al-be-it in it yet never of it Now Eriphilus you see I am farre from dallying and am come to more playne Dealing than perhaps well pleaseth you Philomathes Verilie Eubulus I can not denye but your Reasons are sound and solide and your Distinctions are subtill But it seemeth exceeding strange that anie such Case and so long a tyme should haue befallen the Church of GOD which maketh mee yet to suspect that your Argumentes are more out of subtiltie of Logicke than according to the Veritie of the Matter and that how-so-ever they evince indeede clearlie a Possibilitie of such a Case yet that anie such Case in trueth was they will not conclude And it were a rash Conception so to thinke of holie Church So that according as I sayde before you seeme still to reason but A posse ad esse from Possibilitie to Reall existence which will not necessarilie follow Eubulus I confesse Philomathes that the Case is and will seeme strange to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture and the LORD His wyse and wonderfull Dispensation clearlie fore-tolde there-in and fallen out accordinglie For the workes of GOD are wonderfull and Hee is marvelous in the Case of His Saynctes As great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse so al-so is that of Iniquitie And without true illumination to know the Scriptures of GOD none ever shall attayne eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one or happie Discoverie of the other But Philomathes seeing you confesse That I haue clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church as where-by Errour may take place in common and that yet not-with-standing GOD may verie well preserue Trueth and true and lawfull Worship and Worshippers al-be-it in common vnperceived and considering the manie and capitall Poyntes where-with so manie famous Churches now so long tyme charge your Church of Rome I aske you If in this Case you thinke her well defended with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring Or if shee hath not great reason both to suspect what possiblie might befall her and carefullie to descende to an exact Tryall whether it hath so befallen her or not Philomathes Certaynlie I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes as are in Controversie to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches requyre no lesse than that Matters bee condignlie tryed and examined and that a prowde Denyall will not justifie anie in such a Case Eubulus Well Philomathes and in so clearlie evinced a Possibilitie of Apostasie as requyreth a condigne Tryall whether thinke you is it the surest way to put the stable Trueth of GOD revealed in His Worde to this inaequitable and vnsure Condition as eyther to approoue it selfe by the Multitude and Continuance of Holders who yet may erre or then to bee rejected Or rather to laye for a sure Ground That seeing it is Trueth there-fore it ought to subdue all Myndes and take place agaynst all Praejudices of Praescription Praerogatiue of Holders Tymes Places or Persons Because it dependeth not on the vnstable Humours of Men who are but naturallie Liars and may bee deceived But is in it selfe so cleare as beeing admitted purelie to pleade for it selfe it will sufficientlie approoue and justifie it selfe agaynst all howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour and all eyther Qualitie or Multitude of Mayntayners or Praescription of Tyme In short Philomathes whether ought the Trueth of GOD to bee subject to Men or ought all Men to bee subject vnto it And which of these two Reasons conclude strongest and on which may a Christian Soule best rest This hath long had place and Approbation with most Men and there-fore is the Trueth Or this is GOD His Trueth there-fore it ought to haue place even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever And how-so-ever it hath appeared to haue beene perished from amongst Men yet certaynlie it hath remayned all-wayes Philomathes Verilie I can not denye but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie to subject the Trueth of GOD to Man al-be-it agayne in the Question what is that Trueth I thinke the judgement of the Church and what hath long bene held of Her should be much regarded and not rejected without great and verie cleare Reasons Eubulus That I yeeld you Philomathes and truelie if in the present Poynt of our Disputation we had or could bring no more but as you alleadged the Possibilitie of the case where-of no Evidence might bee produced that accordinglie it had fallen out And if my Reasons and Distinctions in this Matter were but from quirkes of Logicke and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde and accordinglie fallen-out Events you had the lesse reason to regard them But besides the Possibilitie which I haue evinced besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe so clearlie delivered in Scripture as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule that accordinglie the Case hath fallen The holie Ghost for our farder Resolution hath also according to both the Possibilitie and the event in effect agreeable so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case and Course as I may boldlie say to whom it appeareth strange They are yet great Strangers in the written Word of GOD and in such great measure of Light as now in GOD'S singular Mercie is revealed who disdayne to learne what even Artificers in such open and large offer of Grace are holden to know they are worthilie blynded in GOD'S just indignation Wee are not onlie fore-warned by the LORD Him-selfe in the dayes of His flesh and agreeablie there-after by the Apostle Paul of such a common Apostasie in the Church as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne even in the Temple of GOD but also most amplie particularlie and delightfullie vnder most goodlie and significant Types in the Booke of the Revelation the whole course of Storie is plainlie and at length expressed So as Philomathes I haue not alleadged what probablie might be but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie and particulie fore-tolde and fore-warned vs should come to passe and which accordinglie wee see clearlie performed Yo◅ Men are deceived because they knowe neyther the ◅criptures nor the Power of GOD. And I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions in
true Religion is not onlie buried but al-so lost Which after that perfect Sacrifice which CHRIST offered once for all offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices for Sinne Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne which they haue not received from the LORD Which superstitiouslie keepe Dayes and Tymes Which set vp Saynctes departed and erect Images to bee worshipped with Religious Adoration Who glorying of Fathers and Martyres are them-selues Persecuters and Murderers of the Sayncts That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST but is vndoubtedlie The Antichristian Synagogue But such is the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is not the true Church of CHRIST but is The Antichristian Synagogue Now as your Man 's stout Asseveration of holie Service Ceremonies Sacrifice Sacraments Dayes c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion except you try verifie them to be such by that onlie Touch-stone which in anie case you desyre never to bee touched so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts Martyres and Virgines contayned in our Kalendar and the pretended canonizing of them much lesse helpe him What they haue beene who are contayned in our Kalendar wee are not much curious to inquyre because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts but for a civill Rule where-by to calculate Tymes And I praesume that Ianus Iulius and Augustus are none of the number written in Heaven as perhaps no more are some others vvho are written in the Kalendar vvhose Names yet in civill vse may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes And I thinke verilie your Poet hath lost both the Yeare of GOD and Dominicall Letter al-so when hee is prooving Religion from the Kalendar which wee esteemed ever should bee cleared from Scripture And hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie as hee asketh when and where they lived But foolish Man it is neyther the ryme when nor the place where anie Man eyther liveth or dieth that maketh him a Christian. But that third thing in his Question which onlie for all except to multiplie Babling hee should haue asked namelie in what Fayth they lived and died And then wee answere That if they were Saynctes indeede they both lived and died in the same Fayth which wee holde and were even of our Companie which Companie is not defined by Tyme when or place where but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones in what-so-ever place and of what-so-ever tyme in one LORD one Fayth one Spirit on Baptisme c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth and Thy Word is Trueth sayeth our Saviour And giving this that all these Sayncts had beene not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome then but also that they had beene of her Companie for manie even now are in her Companie which are not of it Come out of her my People sayeth the Spirit and holding one and the same Fayth which Rome at that tyme helde yet as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you What will anie Prayse or Praerogatiue of Rome then make for Rome now which is not now of the Companie of Rome then but is the Synagogue of Satan where-as Rome of olde was of our Companie Eriphilus What Philadelphus will you make those whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized to bee of your Companie they were Canonized I tell you may Ages before Luther was borne Philadelphus Of their Canonizing Eriphilus I will not now much dispute whether it was farther eyther to their honour who were so Canonized or to theirs who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour in making Sayncts or to the reproach and disgrace of both I am certaine that whom GOD hath sanctified hee is and will bee a Saynct though the Pope and all the Conclaue had concluded the contrarie and whom GOD hath not sanctified no power in the Worlde can make holie I say that in this your glorying of Canonizing Saynctes you haue as valide an Argument for the Church of Rome as the building of the Prophets Tombes and garnishing of their Sepulchres was for the Iewes whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets and them-selues crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie And our Fayth Eriphilus was not borne with Luther no more than your Heresie was borne with you but our Fayth is the same Fayth where-by all Faythfull in all Ages and Places ever lived as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion which even in the Apostolicke tymes Satan was a-hatching and which having by slow degrees mounted to so monstrous an height is now agayne neare the dead-trach to the Devil 's great displeasure Philomathes If EUBULUS and I shall giue over to you PHILADELPHUS and to ERIPHILUS the reasoning of this Matter I feare wee must provyde vs some-where of long Weapons to goe betwixt you so Satyricke are you and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe than I am able and if Eriphilus take my Counsell hee shall beholde you all-so to pleade your part And it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne as it pleaseth you to call them which haue marred Eriphilus Mirth as Eubulus sad Syllogismes vvhereby hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes as how-so-ever at first rejecting my Sonnets hee summoned vs to Syllogismes yet I perceiue him now so surfeyted with them that in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion I will yet vouchsafe him one Sonnet to swadge it where-in hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued Continuance is but a common Case Things Visible are often-times vnviewed What 's Unitie if it bee not in Grace Hypocrisie some-tyme â—…surpes the place Of Holynesse if true Light bee not Leader Who Flesh for Spirit who Shades for Sooth embrace The more devote more doting they 'r and deader Would'st thou stand stay'd ' gaynst all both Doubts Dangers Follow CHRIST'S Voyce and flee the voyce of Strangers Philomathes I knowe not howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde but verilie you haue made your worde good in this That in all your Sonnet there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence as you haue compryzed in a short Summe the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse agaynst our Man's Markes But nowe both the Day and the Way are shortening and wee haue yet one Poynt to passe thorowe namelie of HAERETICKES You haue beene so difficill Eubulus to graunt vs the Title of the true Church and haue so farre set at naught all our Notes as I would gladlie heare how you will cleare your owne Churches from this imputation of HAERESIE which our Man heere at great length layeth agaynst you Eubulus If hee could haue prooved his power in anie thing hee would chiefelie haue imployed it for the credite of his owne Church and Cause Where-in if hee had prevayled hee should with one and the same travell haue
hee hath so bewitched the miscarried fansie of Philadelphus that hee maketh no small account of his fellowship yea even my Lord his Father and my Ladie his Mother carrie him no lesse reverence and loue than if he were forsooth a person of some worth Philomathes And is this indeede Eubulus verilie I am glad I haue the occasion to see him for hee hath the report of a discreet Gentle-man and that hee hath some good Gift in teaching and I haue much longed to heare him Eriphilus What! Philomathes doe you account it a lawfull thing to heare anie of these Heretickes This Eubulus I tell you is an Oratour and can perswade foolish people to wiene much of him And I will not denie but he hath some piece of prudent and faire Carriage but Catholickes ought so much the more to shunne his fellowship lest they bee deceived with Showes Philomathes Verelie Eriphilus I can not altogether allow of your judgement in this for al-be-it I mislike their Church yet I haue heard some of their Preachers speake both powerfullie and holilie so as I can not denie but I haue beene some-times both instructed and edified by them And if wee will lay aside Passion and Praejudice wee must acknowledge that there bee some of them who are both excellentlie learned and exemplarlie holie men And thus much haue I gained by hearing of them that certainlie I perceiue our Writers to lay against them manie vnjust imputations so to make their doctrine odious as if they did maintaine things where-of I haue often heard them teach the contrarie And for mee I never can approoue that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies Eriphilus To speake plainlie to you Philomathes I thinke you are little from halting betwixt two and I can not account him a true Catholicke who will either heare or in anie thing approoue such Heretickes or will so much as once call in question what-so-ever the Church enjoyneth Philomathes I will beare with you to judge of mee as you please but I both am a true Catholicke and doe reverence the Church yet without light indifferentlie to embrace all things I thinke it not onelie brutish but also vnlawfull for Christians who haue to try what they holde And verilie saving the judgement of holie Church that opinion of implicite Faith hath both much disgraced the Catholicke Cause and hath made our Doctrine to bee suspected of maniâ—… But it is high time for vs to salute these Gentle-men CHAPTER II. Philomathes GOD saue you Masters Philadelphus GOD saue you Philomathes and you Eriphilus Doe your Effaires lye this way Eriphilus This same is our way and though it were not yet wee had reason to offer you the duetie of Convoy so as if it bee not displeasant vnto you wee will for a space keepe you companie Philadelphus Your companie is to vs verie acceptable Eriphilus But I pray you good Sir was it not the Minister Theriomachus who a little hence did part from you Philadelphus You haue judged rightlie Eriphilus And how falleth it for all his Clergie that now in almost halfe a yeare hee cannot finde an Answere to one Sheete of Paper which yet hee received with no small presumption that how-so-ever Pitch was defiling yet hee reâ—…mbled an hote Tongs which could contract no Contagion there-by Philadelphus By what Logicke will you inferre Eriphilus because hee hath made no Answere there-to that therefore hee could finde none to giue it Know you not that by the holie Ghost His owne Testimonie it is some-times foolishnesse to make answere And yet how are you bolde to affirme hee hath not answered it Haue you heard all the Conference hee ever had with the partie-presenter of that Sheete of Paper since the time hee received it Hee hath written nothing there-to you will say But from the defect of a written Answere to conclude of no answere at all it is an halting argumentation And haâ—… honest men thinke you who are busied in their publicke Callings nothing else a-doe but to waste time and travell in intertaining Plea with Contentions and ydle humours vpon everie pievish Pamphlet put out by them of thinges a thousand times refuted To answere ought is but a labour bootlesse When curious Questions are in pryde proposed On Soules fore-stall'd all travell tane is fruitlesse For Light is but to lowlie myndes exposed Manie protest them vprightlie disposed Singlie to search and receiue Institution Who yet keepe that with-in their Breastes inclosed Which barreth out all better Resolution Who with him-selfe concludes sine counsell craveth According to his Idoles hee receiveth Philomathes You haue set downe in your Sonnet a most certaine trueth For my selfe I protest I ever abhorred all contention and bitternesse in disputing And who for anie other ende maintaine Argument but in an vpright and calme care to finde out Trueth they are both displeasant to others and vnprofitable to themselues But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter and wee haue so convenient occasion of Eubulus companie and the time shall bee so well spent I would intreat Eubulus that if hee hath ought to answere to these Questions hee will vouchsafe to speake it and this I protest I require in vprightnesse because I doe thinke there bee diverse of them to which hardlie shall hee finde anie good answere Eubulus I never refused to conferre calmlie with anie but I hate contention and if you Philomathes jumpe with mee in this humour I will obey your request the more gladlie and I hope our Conference shall not bee altogether fruitlesse Haue you then these Questions by you and if not I can perhaps supplie your want Philomathes I haue them heere and will reade them to yoâ—… in order yet I am glad that you haue alreadie seene them for you may answere the more resolutelie to each This then is the Inscription A proper new Ballad where-in is contained Catholicke Questions to the Protestant Eriphilus I perceiue that you are alreadie acquainted with it How say you then Philadelphus is it not indeede a proper Ballad Philadelhpus How proper his Ballad is let poëts judge Out of my little skill I may boldlie affirme that for anie either grace it bringeth to his Arte or credite to his Cause hee might right well haue contented him-selfe to speake in Prose but his forme is good aneugh for his matter and hee is I warrand you no worse Poët than hee prooveth evidentlie a weake Divine Reason and Ryme if sweetlie they bee sembled Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression Quicke Arguments with Eloquence enaembled Draw contrare Myndes more quicklie to Confession But of true Fayth if vnder false Profession Songs bee made Syropes but to sweeten Errours Prudence will spye and keepe of Trueth possession Vnsnar'd with Syrens or yet tost with Terrours But that 's soone seene which wants both Sause Season Your raving Man hath neither Ryme nor Reason Eriphilus It is by evincing Syllogismes I trow and not by invectiue Sonnets Philadelphus that
whollie there-to my Bookes passing so commonlie in the Countrey yet because in this Marke as in the toppe of your strength you glorie most I will GOD willing in few words vnfolde your Errour This then Philomathes is the Major or Proposition of your Argument The Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible Philomathes And you haue al-readie as I thinke granted it neyther see I though you would recall your word what goodly you can say against it Eubulus I am to recall nothing of that I haue sayde but yet I must cleare in what sense this your Position is to bee admitted for pulling your men from their ordinarie Starting-Hole of Aequivocation For how-so-ever I will still grant that in some respects the Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible yet I will denye your Proposition if from a restrict Case you draw it to an absolute Assertion because in some consideration the Church is invisible And to cleare this In respect of the matter of the Church which is Men and in respect of the common outward forme in the publicke common Ensigne of Profession worship we confesse the Church to bee and al-wayes to haue beene visible But in respect of her inward forme the purpose of Grace where-on chiefelie the Trueth of the Church hangeth she is invisible And the LORD knoweth who are His. Schooles doe call the one Rationē Signi the other Rationē Beneplaciti And seeing it is an Article of our Faith to belieue the Church and that Fayth is of things which are not seene it followeth of necessitie that in some and that a most principall respect the Church is invisible For to be believed to be seene can not consist Yea this is so evident a trueth as Bellarmine is forced to confesse it these are his words Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri aliquid credi videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus sed credimus that is I say better that in the Church some thing is seene and some thing is believed for wee see that Companie which is the Church but that that Companie is the selfe true Church of CHRIST we see not but belieue it The one cōsideration discerneth Christians true or false from open Idolaters and Heathen men the other distinguisheth true Christians from outward professours onlie commō worshippers Now as these distinct Cōsiderations should be sophisticallie confounded so you see Philomathes that your Propositiō taken absolutelie were deceitfullie false Philomathes Even so much as you grant will serue me for concluding of mine Argument so as I neede not impugne your Distinction or disadvow ought that Bellarmine sayeth I pleade but that the Church is ever visible Ratione Signi as you speake that is that the true Orthodox externall worship and worshippers haue beene al-wayes visible For it must bee some externall Signe falling vnder Sense and outward perception which must bee a Marke of the Church as you haue evinced agaynst vs eve◅ by our Bellarmine's suffrage and there-vpon did bereaue vs of our first Marke of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE Eubulus As you even modifie your Proposition Philomathes yet it implyeth a deceit which you bewray by your owne Glosse That is say you that the true and Orthodox Worship and Worshippers haue al-wayes beene visible Which if you doe meane in this Sense that al-wayes by the common Ensigne of publicke Profession Ratione Signi it might ever haue bene discerned where the true Worship and true Worshippers were and might haue beene seene I will heartilie yeelde you it But if he◅e-by as your Men pleade you would signifie that all-wayes and in common lawfull and true Worship and lawfull and true Worshippers haue so farre obtayned borne swey as what-so-ever in common helde place in the Church that was to bee esteemed Trueth then I still deny even your modified Proposition And it is still one and the same Fallacie wherein before in the Mark of Continuance you did fall and which at length I elided there In my Distinction Signi Beneplaciti I tolde you even now That by the visible Ensigne Christians in common good or bad or Orthodox or otherwayes were discerned from Forraigners and Heathen men Now heere-vpon to inferre That by the common visible Ensigne in the cōmunitie of Christians true Orthodox Worshippers or true Orthodox Worship are discerned from false and adulterous both vnder the same common Ensigne you may see how chyldish Sophistrie it were If Satan had but one way of assayling the Church namelie by open and avowed Hostilitie and if none but lawfull and Orthodox Worshippers were vnder it then had you reason to make the cōmon Ensigne of Visible Profession a sure Marke not onlie of Christians in common but even of true Christians al-so at least of lawfull outward worship But seeing that both by Scripture and many folde Experience we know that by no meane he hath so effectually prevayled as by transforming him-selfe in an Angel of Light vnder pretence of the common Ensigne to adulterate all lawfull vvorship of necessitie for discerning the true Church or approoved lawfull Worship from the Abhomination of Desolation both of them in sanctis Ecclesiae locis vnder one and the same Ensigne of Christian Profession wee must advert not onlie whose Hornes are pretended but also whose Mouth speaketh So as still you may see that even Visibilitie must bee reduced vnto and examined by our onelie demonstratiue Marke which in the beginning of our Disputation I layde downe Philomathes I loue so greatlie to bee resolved especiallie in this so mayne and maynlie controverted a Poynt as I will come farder with you than I know our Church will allow mee and giue you this That even Errour might possiblie haue taken place in the whole Church in common which Case I did not obscurelie put at the beginning of our Conference about this Marke yet seeing wee accord in this That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church and seeing that you yeelde mee this al-so That the same is al-wayes visible in respect of the matter there-of MEN and externall forme of Profession which is of necessitie a certayne trueth in so farre as not onlie with the Heart wee belieue to Righteousnesse but also with the Mouth wee confesse vnto Salvation How-so-ever it eyther hath or might haue fallen that most part were misscarried and that Adulterous worship and Worshippers haue had chiefe Rowme and beene most conspicuous and visible Yet how can you denye but some number at least behooved to be al-wayes of lawfull Worshippers and holding the Orthodox Fayth vvho both in their persons and in their Worship were visible even in tyme of greatest Corruption Eubulus Your vpright Dealing and desire of Resolution Philomathes maketh mee to let that freelie with you which with others I would perhaps haue longer stucke vnto For bringing you then to your Wishes I graunt
and call it Prudence and Vertue yea and a good Prudence and affirme That who vse it are to bee praysed those are Teachers of Men to become Liars Eriphilus You will not so easilie as you trow get mee in-trapped with your Interrogatours for there is some even Godlie and prudent Simulation Eubulus I mynde no such Circumvention as you feare but moste playne Dealing for gayning of you more than my Poynt And to showe you howe farre I am from entertayning impertinent Plea I will not now question with you about this howe well anie Simulation may bee made to accord with Prudence and Pietie But let the Instances which I shall produce beare witnesse vvhether they bee such as may escape vnder this your Sconse As for the Position which I haue brought in all the Poyntes there-of your owne Man Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta vvho hath written a whole Treatise of Aequivocations in Favoures as hee professeth of the Iesuites In Cap. humanae aures 12. Quaest. 5. affirmeth playnleie In d. Cap. humanae Pag. 352. Pag. 349. Et pag. 351. Eriphilus You may perhaps vvrong him in this Imputation But and though anie one such Man hath vvritten so yet ought it not bee counted a common Fault of our CHVRCH Howe manie of your Men mayntayne Poyntes which your CHVRCH yet disadvoweth in common Eubulus If I doe wrong him his Booke and places there-of alleadged by mee will witnesse And that his Doctrine is a just Imputation agaynst your Church is cleare by this That Pope Gregorie the thirteenth approoved and ratified his Doctrine as Sanctam inconcussam holie and stable And besides him Gregorius de Valentia a lesuit Tom. 3. Disput. 5. Quaest. 13. de reo punct 2. calleth AEQVIVOCATION Prudentem Defensionem a wyse Defence The fore-named Navarrus in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest. 5. Pag. 348. recordeth and highlie prayseth an Aequivocation vsed by Saynct FRANCIS vvho beeing asked by the Sergeantes persuing after a Murder If such a Murderer had passed that way did put his Handes in his Gowne Slieues and aunswered That hee had not passed that way Vnderstanding with himselfe contrarie to common perception that hee had not passed thorowe his Slieues And the sayde Navarrus addeth even there Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchae FRANCISCI that this Doctrine of Aequivocations is founded vpon that noble Fact of that Great PATRIARCH Saynct FRANCIS Philadelphus Besides that common dislyke which al-most all the other Romane Clergie haue of Iesuites I thinke that the Cordeliers haue heere a proper Quarrell and a most competent Plea and Action agaynst them who thus take vnto them-selues wrongfullie the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION which beeing founded on the noble Act of Saynct FRANCIS should with all reason haue remayned the Propertie of his Familie as accordinglie they were called once commonlie LYING FRIERS till now the Iesuites haue so farre encroached vpon this their Right as that how farre so-ever the Friers bee still set to mayntayne their Title yet the Iesuites doe farre exceede them in all the cunning kyndes of Aequivocation Eubulus It is an vnlucklie Debate where-in the Victors greatest Honour is that there-by hee prooveth to bee the more neare sib vnto Satan But to prosecute my Matter The same Navarrus teacheth that a person accused before a Iudge who proceedeth not juridice lawfullie is not holden to confesse the Trueth but may vse AEQVIVOCATION mentallie reserving within him-selfe some other thing than his wordes doe sound yea eyther in Answere or Oath to his Iudge or Superiour that hee may vse a Bout-gate of Speach Amphibologia whether through a diverse signification of the word or through the diverse intention of the asker and of him that maketh answere and although it bee false according to the meaning of the asker in cap. Ne quis can 22. quaest 2. The same Navarrus instructeth a Witnesse to depone that hee knoweth nothing reserving this within him-selfe no thing that hee is holden to tell And hee giveth the same instruction to Pleaders who are requyred to giue their Oathes de calumnia or of Veritie Pag. 151. Toletus a Iesuit and a Cardinall teacheth these same healthsome Lessons Instruct. sacerd lib. 4. cap. 21. Iacobus Sylvanus aliâs Keller Iesuit teacheth the same Philipp contr Anonymum c. pag. 5. Besides all these Eriphilus doe they not teach men to bee Liars who affirme that no Oath given to an Haereticke or Infidell is to bee keeped And yet this was both inacted and practized in the Councell of Constance Iacobus Simancha Episcopus Pacensis de Catholic institut cap. 46 al-so avoucheth it Conradus Brunus de Haereticis lib. 3. cap. 15 determineth that no Pactions Conventions Lawes Confirmations rescripta where-by Haeretickes obtayne Peace and Securitie ought to bee keeped or counted of anie force or effect Now if wilfull and even purposed Perjurie may bee counted Pietie and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Trueth you esteeme a prudent Simulation Eriphilus I thinke him pittifullie imprudent who hath anie dealing with you Philomathes I beseech you Eubulus no more of this For my part I never lyked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation And I thinke verilie that the Church hath beene evill beholden to those Men what-so-ever they were who haue brought that Blot vpon the Catholicke Fayth Eubulus Then Philomathes of all others the Church is worst beholden to the Pope who hath approved and confirmed and yet still â—…hamelessie mayntayneth that disgracefull Doctrine And you who see the Evill are yet worse than woâ—…st of all beholden to your-selues who in so playnlie a perceived Praevarication yet suffer your selues to bee so sensleslie and miserablie miscarried But how-so-ever I bee in this purpose more playne than pleasant vnto you and that even there-fore I could bee content to speake no more of it who am loath to grieue you in anie thing yet because I promised it to Eriphilus and hee conceived that I could not possiblie cleare such as hee called it a Calumnie I must essay to acquyte my selfe in prooving all-so of your Romanistes the other Poynt and Note of their spirituall Kâ—…nred propounded by mee of Devilish Dealing namelie that they are Murderers and teach men so as well as Liars and thus are Satan's vpright Children Cardinall Baronius in his Epistle agaynst the Venetians speaketh thus The Ministrie of Peter blessed Father is two-folde To feede and to kill according to that Feede my Sheepe and according to that Kill and eate For when the Pope hath to deale with refractarie and averse parties as are the Venetians then Peter is bidden Kill and slay and packe them vp in his Bellie Is not this I pray you reverentlie and rightlie vsed Scripture The same Baronius in his Paraenesis to the Venetians Pag. 9. It resteth O Father the Pope that you draw agaynst Malefactours the Sword of Peter whom to this ende CHRIST appoynted over Kingdomes and Nations Their King-killing Doctrine
Syrope Philadelphus is little lesse vnpleasant than your Potion so as Eriphilus hath to provide him-selfe other-wayes of Patience But leaving this I will turne mee agayne to Eubulus who gaue the Wound which you well satyricklie haue rankled You remember Eubulus that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse of HAERETICKES in this mayne Syllogisme To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES doe properlie conveane and in whom are found manyfolde Defectes which can not befall the true Church they must of necessitie bee baereticall But to the Protestant Churches the Notes of HAERETICKES doe properlie conveane and in them are found manyfolde Defectes which can not befall the true Church There-fore the Protestant Churches are haereticall The Proposition of this Argument you admitted To the first part of the Assumption as touching the Notes of Haeretickes you haue so answered that labouring to cleare your selues you haue layde over well sadlie that Imputation vpon our Church Nowe then all-be-it wee haue the longer but the lesse Esperance of prevayling yet seeing this other poynt concerning the Defectes found in you or affirmed of you resteth nowe onelie of all our Man's Poēsie to bee spoken of I would heare your Aunsweres all-so vnto his Interrogatours there-vpon Eubulus Of this Philomathes I will acquyte my selfe with small a-doe for that all-most all the Defectes objected vnto vs are vpon your Poet 's praesumed Opinion That wee want those Markes where-of hath beene spoken So as anie sensible Man in that which wee haue all-readie sayde shall finde all his subsequent Questions sufficientlie aunswered Besides that else-where I haue aunswered them at such length as my Discourse heere may bee the shorter and you yet aboundantlie satisfied if not with that which I now say yet with easie paynes to reade mine other TREATISES Nowe then reade foorth in order your Man's Questions Philomathes I will both gladlie heare what you shall now say and will not wearie al-so to reade what else-where you haue written These now are the Questions You say your Fayth did appeare For the space of sixe hundreth Yeare But tell mee if thou can When Papistrie first began Where were the Servants of the LORD That none of them durst speake a word To defend the knowne Trueth ************** Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle Did the Gates of Hell prevayle Did the Salt lose its savour Was the Bryde out of favour Was the Pillar over-throwne By vvhich all Trueth vvas to bee knowne By this thou vvouldst prooue playne All CHRIST'S Promise to bee vayne Sea Heavens and Earth shall passe in-deede But of this Word no jot vvee reade Where haue you beene so long a tyme To vvhom did your Light shyne Where did your principall Pastor sit Who kept your Keyes vvho fed your Sheepe Show mee some Church that you haue built I can shew manie that you haue spilt Were all damned eternallie Who vvere not of your Companie How might a Man haue found you out To haue tryall in matters of doubt When no such Companie did appeare For so manie hundreth Yeare Till LUTHER a lying Frier On vvhom the Devill ◅ad desire Brake his Vow and married a Nun And then your Haeresie first begun And favoured in SAXONIE By a Duke that loved Libertie And in King EDWARD'S tyme truelie It first infected our Countrey For a thousand yeares you say That Papistrie did beare the sway And during all that space No Protestant did show his Face Who kept the holie Scripture then From the hands of wicked men Who had Authoritie to ordayne Or make Priests or Bishops agayne For hee that entereth without order As a Thiefe doth kill and murder Hee is a Wolfe and not a Priest And Enemie to our Saviour CHRIST And one thing doth make mee muze That no Priest you did refuse Ordayned by the Church of Rome But hee was excepted soone If hee would say your Service Hee should haue a Benefice Without anie farder Order And accounted for the Better How may shee make a lawfull Priest If shee bee not the Church of CHRIST Answere this if that thou can And I will bee a Protestan But while your Answere you devyse I counsell all Men that bee wyse To holde the Fayth mayntayned heere The space of a thousand Yeare Brought to vs English-men By our Apostle Sainct Austine Who from Rome vvas hither sent When EDWARD vvas King of KENT Who learn'd his Fayth of Gregorie ◅ Which Fayth vvas kept successiuelie By three-score Bishops and three From Saynct Peter's tyme vvee see Who learn'd his Fayth of CHRIST IESU Who is the Sonne of GOD most true To HIM bee all Honour and Prayse Who doeth defende HIS Church al-wayes Eubulus You may perceiue Philomathes the trueth of that which I sayde vnto you that all these yourman's questions are coincident with the cases of Continuance Visibilitie wherof we haue spoken except that in end for giving vs a deadly blow in his conceit he close all vp with the question of our Callings And to make cleare to you how your man multiplieth words in vayne without knowledge I reduce all his impertinent pratling to this mayne Argument If things affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His Church and Her certaine condition thereby and if you are forced to acknowledge of the Church of Rome that which can not bee competent to anie Companie but to CHRIST'S Church then are your Churches Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST But the thinges affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His Church and Her certayne Condition there-by and that which you grant of the Church of Rome is onlie competent to CHRIST HIS Church There-fore your Churches are Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST Philomathes Verilie our Poet if hee were even heere present could alleadge no Prevarication on you in the vpright compryzing of the summe of his Discourse And if you shall answere to it as clearlie and ingeniouslie as you haue ingeniouslie propounded it vndoubtedlie the best of this Game will bee yours Eubulus The Proposition of his Argument is true but his Assumption is extreamlie false where-of hee laboureth to fortifie the first part touching the Defects alleadged on our Churches thus The Promise of CHRIST to His Church is That Peter's fayth shall never fayle that The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle against her that The Salt shall not lose its savour that The Bryde shall not bee out of favour that The Church shall remaine the stable Pillar of Trueth c. and According to this Promise the certayne Condition of the Church is That Shee al-wayes continueth and is visible But by these things which you affirme of your Churches Peter's Fayth should haue fayled The Gates of Hell should haue prevayled the Salt should haue lost its savour the Spouse should haue beene out of favour the Pillar should haue beene over-throwne and the Church of