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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85314	Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1652 (1652)	Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624	107,263	123

adversaries that trouble our Reformation I thought to have taken occasion here to cleare my selfe from what Mr. Edwards had writ concerning me but the man being dead I rather let it alone for sin I thanke God he hath charged me with none I know if ever the Lord bring such an unworthy wretch as I am to heaven I shall not beare Mr. Edwards a grudge for what unkindnesse he hath offered to me here But whereas Mr. Edwards hath branded me for an Independent some of miserable Colchester have told me that I have altered my principles but I know no reason why the one should charge me to be an Independent nor the other for departing from my principles for I never declared any thing in publike but onely once which was concerning the matter and forme of a visible Church for the government of the Church never troubled me but how to have the people reformed and scandalous persons debarred from the seales of the Covenant and persons brought into a posture fit for Discipline but what is this to Independency Once also I expressed this that I conceived a Church organized and walking regularly might execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I never expressed any thing more there concerning Church-worke but did labour to keep alive the old truths which I found my heart had more need of then to preach about Church-government in such a Towne as that was But if you say though I did not expresse it openly yet I was an Independent in my judgement but how can men charge me with that whi●c neither in publike nor private they ever heard me expresse but then to deale plainly I shall set down what manner of Independent then I was and then you shall see how much I am altered In these points I did joyne with the Congregational-men First I thought none but visible Saints to be fit matter for a Church Secondly So the Belgick Churches I thought a promise from the people to subject themselves to Church-discipline was of very great concernment to carry on Discipline with strength and comfort as likewise to subject themselves to all other Ordinances as became Christians Thirdly though I did owne the Churches of England for true Churches yet because for want of Catechising and Discipline they were overgrowne with ignorance and prophanenesse I did desire the grosly ignorant and prophane to stay a while before I gave t heir children the seale of Baptisme that having got knowledge and conversation freed from scandall the Ordinance might be administred with more comfort Fourthly I thought that if Churches were now constituting the Officers should not receive any into Church-fellowship against the consent of the people giving sufficient proofe against them Fifthly I thought the Officers ought not excommunicate any person If the people did not consent to them not that a Church must be obstructed if two or three have a minde to be crosse Sixtly I thought a particular Church organized to be the first subject of the power of the Keyes and according as Mr. Cotton held it out but this I did not expresse publikely Seventhly I did somewhat question whether the Officers of one Church had power to excommunicate in another Church But in these points I was no Independent First I could not be clear that the people were the first subject of the power of the Keyes Secondly neither that the Fraternity had power to ordain formally Thirdly that a Minister should preach onely as a gifted broth er out of his owne place Fourthly I could not consent to have the godly people taken away from a godly Presbyterian into an Independent Church Fifthly I could not approve that Independent Churches should refuse to communicate with Presbyteriall Churches though there were good store of visible Saints for want of an explicite Covenant By this time I hope I shall be no ranke Independent But where is then my thanging of my principles let these men prove it for I am the same still onely since I read Mr. Hudson I doe somewhat waver about the first subject of the Keyes and this is all my change That my minde may be cleared against whom I write I observe Separatists are not all of a size some separate from Ministers Churches and get into their private houses owne no officers but please themselves with their owne gifts and opinions these are the persons whom I chiefly aime at as such that so trouble us that no Church-discipline can hold so long as they stand Others live in places where there are visible and reall Saints the Ministry godly and able yea it may be called to the place by these persons but because they cannot have all they would picking a quarrell with the Ordination of their Minister c. they choose some other Minister in some other Towne and so depart from the Prebyterial to a Congregational Church continuing still in the same Parish It is well these men hold up Ordinances and Officers yet the grounds of their practice the ensuing Discourse will try I am sure peace and unity among Churches cannot possibly stand with this practice it is very sad that we should not yeeld a little where we may nay where we ought for peace with our brethren whom we cannot but judge holy and sincere If there should sometimes fall out a quotation somewhat sharp yet I pray doe not thinke that I apply it to all Separatists but to some among them who may deserve it What successe my poore endeavours shall finde I know not I looke for little good they shall doe amongst the Separatists who with an imperious scorn neglect to listen to or read any thing which tends to overthrow their practice and though they be so confuted as they are not able to answer a word yet they scorne to acknowledge their error and returne to the Congregations from which they have separated which to me is a clear demonstration that however these men pretend conscience yet it is no such thing for were these men lead by a pure conscience considering how they separate from holy men such also as have beene instruments of their soules good considering also how they weaken their hands grieve their spirits they would heare read pray take any course that they might be sure to be found in the truth Act. 13.36 But I leave the successe to God my desire was to serve my Generation and there I rest Separation Examined I Will not trouble my selfe to prove that there is a visible Church upon the Earth or true visible Churches in England I thinke there are none that owne the Scriptures who will deny the former though there are some who deny the latter unlesse I meane the Congregationall Churches which they will acknowledge to be Churches but none else yet many of those whom I write against doe not owne them for though they have opportunity and may joyne with such Churches yet they refuse to doe so being unwilling I perceive to come under or

let me examine what you say at present You will covenant together supposing your selves to be Saints first say you so are you Saints by calling how came you to be so what did God call you immediately No you must say many if not all of you who have any truth of grace by the preaching of the word what by those Ministers from whom you separate as no Ministers because of their Ordination hath the Lord so farre owned his despised members as to make them the instruments to bring you to be visible Saints fit to imbody or covenant c and are these now no Ministers are you the effect of their Ministeriall labours and they no Ministers Surely in this one thing you have overthrowne your selves but then you say you will ordaine him this I will consider in its owne place Then he shall baptize but since he did renounce his owne baptisme also who shall baptize him first you must have a Minister to do that to be sure he cannot doe it himselfe nor none of you for you are private persons to administer the Lords Supper before you be baptised is contrary to Scripture rules There was a report when I was in New England that a Carpenter re-baptised Mr. Williams In Iust Mar. time none received the Supper but such as were first baptised Apol. 2. Ius Divi. Apend p. 269. and then he did re-baptize the rest I do not stand to defend the thing whether it be true or no but it was like enough to be true and sutable to the other opinions and practises of that wilde generation Where are we now Fifthly that is very observable which the London Ministers have added in the defence of their Ordination That in this Church of England the corruptions which the Church of Rome would have introduced about Ordination of Ministers and other Ecclesiasticall affaires were withstood and opposed by the Kings of England Nor doe we read of any Ministers that were ordained by any Agents sent from Rome but onely some idle ceremonies of Confirmation or them that were ordained by the Pall and the Ring brought thence into England Thus far the London Ministers In the margent they have set downe the Authours that prove it Sixtly There might be another answer given by some who are good Historians which I confesse I am not wanting both time and such bookes so farre as I can goe I will That the Churches in England were at first rightly gathered and constituted it is not to be doubted Mart. 1. Vol. p. 237 last Edition the instruments of gathering being Apostles or Apostolicall men as is evident by Mr. Fox neither is it to be doubted but they did ordaine officers in the Churches for we read of Ministers and Bishops The land falling to the possession of the Saxons about the yeare 568. p. 147. the Story saith by them all the Clergy and the Christian Ministers of the Britains were then utterly driven out in so much that the Arch-bishops of London and Yorke went into Wales thus long then it seemes the Ministers of England had no ordination from Rome P. 149. this appeares also by Austine who came into England in the yeare five hundred ninety eight he about the yeare six hundred P. 153. assembled the Bishops and Doctors of Britaine so that still here were Ministers but where their abode was the story sets not downe but supposed to be towards Wales and charged them to preach the Gospel to the English-men and also that they should among themselves reform certain rites in their Church so that still here were Ministers and Churches specially for keeping of Easter-tide baptizing after the manner of Rome c. to which the Scots and Britaines would not agree this shews they did not depend upon Rome Afterward there was another Synod gathered where seven Bishops of Britaine were present and though we finde a great battell fought presently after where the Britains were overcome yet the Story doth not mention that the Ministers were all slaine there Now the thing I aime at is this that since there were so many Ministers and Bishops in England who had their ordination by succesfion from those Apostolical men and not from Rome and wee finde so many when Austine came why may we not suppose that these might againe preach the Gospel to the English-men though at first they were opposite when they had smarted for their folly and why may we not suppose they might returne into England againe especially into those parts neare Wales also those who were driven out as the Story saith they were suppose into some other parts might not they returne into England also must we take the words of the Story All the Clergy and Christian Ministers were driven out strictly so as none at all were left though latent c those who are good Historians may helpe here and it would be some answer to that objection of our ordination coming from Rome though unto me the objection is very feeble if this answer cannot be made out As for the Churches of England being rightly at first gathered Way of Ch. in N. E. Ch. 7. p. 111. as above mentioned Mr. Cotton yeelds it so as he saith That all the work now is not to make them Churches which were none before but to reduce and restore them to their primitive Institution c. To that part of the Objection They were ordained by Bishops I pray what doe you thinke of Master Bradford and the rest of those holy Ministers and Martyrs that were ordained by the Bishops in those dayes Cranmer Ridley Hooper c was he an Anti-christian Minister and all those Ministers who were then ordained though now they were scarce got out of the Popish Ceremonies c. the holy Martyrs then did never offer to separate from Mr. Bradford and the rest nor call them Antichristian Ministers I pray how many such Bradfords have you among you Not all the Separatists in England can afford such a one Christ cals him his faithfull Minister but you say Mr. Bradford is none cursed be that doctrine Now if those Ministers were true Ministers though they had an Episcopall Ordination then so are ours notwithstanding their Ordination by Bishops It is vaine to say those Bishops were godly men so were ot ours for it is a bold assertion to say that none of the Bishops since have been godly men no doubt there are divers in Heaven And besides it is absurd to thinke that the truth and efficacy of an Ordinance depends upon the truth of Grace in him who doth administer it as for Ceremonies if you search they were not cleare then no more then our Bishops were It is a silly shift to say They walked according to their light I hope there was the same rule to judge of the truth of Ministers then that is now it was not their light which made them true Ministers but the rule But the truth of their Ministry was never

Cornelius was no other then such a one doth the Scripture set such commendations upon such a person I doubt the man did not well know what it was to be devaut in Scripture account the next words fearing God might have helped him to understand what manner of one he was Being at London within lesse then a yeare I heard there was a meeting of Christians and the brethren were to prophesie and it seems it was their manner to speak ex tempore after the first had spoken I suppose they would imitate that text 1 Cor. 14.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by c. I had no great stomacke to goe yet I thought I would go hear supposing that these persons who cry up prophesying had something more excellent then other Ministers especially being such adversaries to Black-coats The text was 1 Thes 5. Quench not the Spirit the next words Despise not prophesying were brought in be sure and charged home that people should observe that as one way of quenching the Spirit I beleeve they spake ex tempore Learning and Ordination they were cryed downe the glorious new lights brought in by the illiterate men were cryed up but such a messe I had that should our poore Country Black-coats prophesie no better we should teach our people to despise prophesying These things I have observed in this new invented Ordinance the summe is when you bring us the men that are qualified for such a worke such as that worthy and honourable man Mr. Winthrop who was a solid man a good schollar and naturall Philosopher fitted to speake excellently and did sometimes before Mr. Cotton went over to New England when the officers desired him but I never heard whether he did after Mr. Cotton came and can prove those texts to be meant of ordinary gifts and the Prophets to be persons out of office then we shall give you leave to Prophesie but not after other Sermons preached by your officers The last proposall is this The last proposall Wee would have liberty of Conscience Answ Iren. p. 30. Mr. Burroughs saith The Devill uses to take sanctuary in conscience hoping there men will be tender but enquiry is to be made whether he be indeed got in there or in some other roome of the soule What that worthy man hath spoken to this point I refer the Reader to Chap. 6. of his Irenicum Because conscience is so often pleaded and made the Asylum for every opinionist let us search when a man may be judged by Christian rules to be swayed by conscience First I would looke that such a man be one that according to the best observation that can be made of him hath a renewed conscience I must finde him to be uniforme else I weigh not what he saith about his conscience There will be infirmities but then they are but infirmities and those truly lamented Though a man have a renewed conscience Posito abstracto concreto non statim ponitur modus agendi yet I will not say that a true renewed conscience is the cause why he maintaines such an opinion he may not be rightly conscientious in that Secondly such a one is ready to give an account of his conscience if you call him to it if he will not give me a reason what moves his conscience I regard him no more Conscience is but a Deputy it cannot make Lawes but they are made before Thirdly such a man hath used all means the best means he can to find out Gods mind prayer reading conferring with the ablest Saints and such as have most skill to guide yea prayer and fasting any way to finde out the truth his conscience is troubled about If he hath not used the best and all means I weigh not his plea of conscience Fourthly if after searching he cannot yet come to see what the streame of holy and learned men doe hold and practise but must differ from them it will be a trouble and griefe to his spirit that he should differ from them fearing lest God should hide it from him seeing others how holy and able they are and therefore thinking they may know more of Gods minde then he doth Fifthly such a man will walke very humbly and respectively towards those men from whom he differs being he knowes so holy and able let us heare Mr. Burroughs speake Exposit Hos c. 5. ver 5. p. 395. But you will say every man pleads conscience how shall we know whether it be the stoutnesse of his heart or the tendernesse of his conscience Thus if this man behaveth himselfe humbly and the rather humbly in all other things because he cannot see what his Brother doth in such and such particulars and so is in danger to be an offence to his Brother and therefore his soule is humbled this is a good witnesse that it is meere conscience and not stoutnesse that makes him differ But now if his behaviour be high and proud when he differeth from his brother he doth not take it to be an affliction to him that he cannot see what his brother doth but censureth him and thinkes that it is either through his weaknesse or through his wilfulnesse that he will not see and so carries himselfe high and proudly before his brother this witnesseth to his face that it is stubbornnesse and singularity Nay then Mr. Burroughs you have scarce left ten conscientious Separatists in England the former part of this I have not seen in any the latter I have seen enough 6 A man truly conscientious c. in those points where he doth agree with other learned and holy men will there cleave close to them in opposing also all other points which he judgeth to be false he will not be a slye enemy or scoffer of such and a conniver at and a favourer of other Sects and Opinions which his heart tells him are not sound or at least he doubts much of them Now the grounds of all these severall heads in the triall of him who differs purely out of conscience are these 1. Because such a conscience in the very formall notion of it carrieth this viz. this mans heart is awed and carried away with the Majesty and Authority of God and his Truth it argueth much grace if one takes it in the true notion then I am sure such a heart will doe all these things 2 Such a man is awed with all truths Ephes 4.3 Phil. 2.2 1 Cor. 1.10 and therefore the command of unity to be all of one minde to speake the same things these have such a power on his spirit as it puts him upon all these 3 Such a man considers that to be an offence to other godly Christians from whom he differs is a thing that he had need take heed of also a feare of weakning the worke of God in the place where he lives 4 Such a one knowes the vilenesse of his owne heart and is prying into his own weaknesses others

questioned till our Separatists rose up who are not comparable to them in parts or holinesse 2 I pray what doe you make of those Ministers who were ordained in the Primitive Churches Cyp. Epis 33 they were ordained in Cyprians time by Bishops and Presbyters and by Hieroms time the Bishops had ingrossed that power into their owne hands as appeares by that speech of his Excepting Ordination Epist ad Evagr. what doth a Bishop that a Presbyter doth not so that by this time it should seeme that the Presbyters were turned out and the Bishops only Ordained It is possible this might be but in some Churches for the fourth councell of Carthage ordered That no Bishop should Ordaine without the councell of his Clergy Can. 22. Can. 3. Now what were these no Ministers Anti-christ was not yet got into his Seat for the yeares of his reigne had been expired before this time It is strange that those should be no true Ministers who lived so neare the Apostles times and under persecution also as in Cyprians time neither was Cyprian surely the first Bishop that did Ordaine for there were Bishops before him yea besides this Ordination by Bishops we finde the Papists contending strongly for strange Rites which they use in Ordination and they say they were also used in those Primitive times for the anointing of the hands of the Presbyter that is ordained this they would prove from Cyprian or at least the Author of The Card. worke of Ch. who shou ld seeme to be as old as Cyprian also from Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 10. c. 4. which place would seeme to favour it and others there are whom they quote See Greg. De Val. to 4. d. 9. q. 5. Also for the shaving of the heads of their Ministers this we finde indeed in August time Ep. 26. Ep. 147. And this Calvin himselfe doth not deny to have been used then and gives the reason why it was used which Greg. de Val. scornes and gives other reasons To. 4. D. 9. q. 5. p. 3. If the Decret Epistles of Anicetus be of any Authority we shal finde it in his days long before Augustin and I wonder that Greg. Val. doth not quote him I am apt to think being they were so prone to Ceremonies in other Ordinances that something was added to this also Iust l. 4. c. 19 Sect 27. and I marvel that in the fourth Councell of Carthage where they set down their rites in Ordinations of other officers and some very ridiculous that the ordination of Presbyters should be the most pure but still with Bishops as well as Presbyters which is the thing now in hand 3 A Bishop if you consider him meerly as a Bishop was but a Minister and set apart to doe the worke of a Minister the same which all other Ministers may doe Bishops did Pray Preach Baptize administer the Lords Supper Ordaine Suspend Excommunicate and these things other Ministers doe and may doe that he did lift up himselfe above other Ministers that was his errour that he would take upon him the sole power of Ordination and Excommunication this was his errour but as the addition of an human invention did not null the Ordinances as suppose only growne persons had been baptized and that by dipping and after dipping they had been signed with the signe of the Crosse would this have nulled the Ordinance in the Anabaptists esteeme no more this usurpation of the power of administring these Ordinances did null a Bishop so as he was no Minister the Ordinances were and are Christs institutions Indeed you may call him an Over-growne Presbyter but a Presbyter 3 Ep. Ioh ver 10. Diotrophes loving of pre-eminence did justly deserve reproofe and John did no doubt deale with him but yet for present did not deny him to be a Minister though a corrupt one for the sole power of Ordination they tell us It is the order of the Church of England as of the Councell of Carthage that when a Presbyter is Ordained all the Presbyters that are present shall lay hands As for the sole power of Excommunication though it was an errour grosse enough yet by the 17. Canon Concil Sardic Ofius who was the cause of that Ganon being made was also at the Councel of Nice it should seeme the Bishops by that time had got that power to excommunicate alone which Canon provides a remedy for a person wrongsully excommunicated by his Bishop to got releefe by Appeales now if that corruption had got in so early long before Anti-christ had got to his Seat no wonder though it was found among our Bishops yet I hope they were true Ministers whom they Ordained As a Bishop was a Lord Bishop his Lordship was but a meere civill addition annexed to the Bishoprick by Regallfavour his Lordship was no ingredient into Ordination 4 The Lawes of this Realme doe account nothing Divine in a Bishop but his being a Presbyter Lond. vind 125. Dr. Seam answ to Diat p. 85. and therefore the Parliament in their Ordinance for Ordination tels us that they did ordaine as Presbyters not as Bishops much lesse as Lord Bishops yea I have heard a reverend Minister now Pastor of a Congregationall Church in Essex say that when the Bishop ordained him he told him I doe ordaine you as I am a Presbyter 5 The Ministers of England are ready to acknowledge those defects and corruptions which did cleave to their entring into the Ministry by the Bishops heare their owne words London Vindica p. 124. We doe not deny but that the way of Ministers entring into the Ministry by the Bishops had many defects in it for which they ought to be humbled but we adde that notwithstanding all the accidentall corruptions yet it is not substantially and essentially corrupted They acknowledge then the errour and desire to be humbled for it what more would you have God will accept of this I doubt not and why not you How to mend Dr. Seamans Divinity I know not where you have also the errour acknowledged implicitely for it is in answer to this Objection then giving his judgement in the case When sinne cleaves to the manner of Calling Answer to Diat p. 85. through the generall errour or corruption of all sorts of people who are concerned in it c. it is nototherwise to be invalidated here below then by doctrinall Censure and Repentance and not by iteration Repentance through Christs Bloud doth take away corruption out of Gods fight and will it not when they are so ingenuous out of your sight 6 There is a maxime taken up among the Independents Many may truly beare the name yea they owne it and practise accordingly yea and others and it goeth for as good Divinity as any the Gospel hath viz. That errours in Non-fundamentals must be borne withall in Churches we must labour indeed to convince people of such but if they will not be so convinced we must not