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truth_n	according_a	church_n	doctrine_n	2,019	5	6.0761	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92173	A most grave, and modest confutation of the errors of the sect, commonly called Brownists, or: Seperatists. Agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry, godly, and learned ministers of this kingdome, then standing out and suffering in the cause of inconformity; and now published in a time of need, for the good of Gods Church, and the better setling of mens unstable mindes in the truth against, the subtile insinuations, and plausible pretences of that pernicious evill. Published by W. Rathband, minister of the Gospell.	Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1644 (1644)	Wing R299; Wing M2893; Thomason E31_11; ESTC R209828	84,262	92

borne but stedfastly opposed to their great reproach dammage and danger many wayes the corruptions in our Church-government worship and Leiturgie and have beene lights and leaders to these latter times therein yet alwayes in a peaceable and regular way as not on the one side to subject themselves to suspitious inventions so on the other not sinfully to separate from the Communion and true worship of Churches accounting it more agreeable to all rules of pietie charitie and Christian prudence to tolerate for the time what they could not mend rather than to rent and teare all in peeces to an utter ruine To conclude though perhaps some few particulars in this treatise may seeme more questionable yet for the maine I doubt not but the Authors have held close to the truth both in their owne positions and in opposing their adversaries By which therefore good Reader thou maiest reape much benefit for thy better settling in these unsettled times if thou be capable thereof and if the Lord shall please to adde his blessing thereunto Which hee shall never cease to pray for who is all that he is truly thine in Him W R. THE PREFACE of the AUTHORS of the Treatise ensuing to the READER THE holy Apostle Saint Paul writing unto the Galathians these words Brethren If any man be fallen by occasion into any fault you which are spirituall restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse considering thy selfe lest thou also be tempted both sheweth the danger of falling whereunto they are subject who stand in the Church of God and prescribeth the dutie of recovering those that are fallen unto such as are spirituall That is to say as are furnished with gifts thereunto with the manner how all that ought to be performed two necessary points in our judgements to be considered and much tending to the preservation of the good and happy estate of the Church of God for how cometh it to passe that Sathan so farre prevaileth against it but for that weake men consider not the danger of falling untill they be downe and almost past recovering those that are fallen either not at all or not untill they be well neere without remedy It is therefore one especiall part of holy wisedome for men who think they stand to take heed lest they fall and therefore to seeke to kneow the depth of Sathans pollicies and subtilties and then the effectuall means for the preventing of them Into which if they carefully enquire they shall finde that though hee seeke to draw even those that have shined as starres in the Church from heaven unto the earth yet that he much more earnestly laboureth to make them wandring starres forsaking the place wherein they seemed to be fixed to give shine and direction to others that is though hee laboureth and endeavoureth to bring men from their first love and zeale unto a lukewarmnesse or key coldnesse in the Church yet he rather desireth to lead them into a fierie spirit and indiscreet zeale from the Church and societie of Saints which no doubt he doth as for many other causes so for these two 1. That he might by their departure who have seemed zealous and godly professors shake the faith of others and cause them to doubt that they are not in the true Church where they may finde directions toward the kingdome of heaven and at last to flie from it as from Babylon And 2. that he might deprive those men themselves of the happy meanes of the recovery which they might have had easily applyed had they beene in the Church and remained in the fellowship thereof Hence it is that in the Church of God those who breaking the holy bands of love and faith have like unkinde children forsaken her their naturall mother and oft pleaded with her as a strumpet which never was done in more convenient manner then of late by certain of our brethren who having been brought forth of the wombe and brought up in the bosome of the Church of England have not onely renounced as a stepmother but condemned her as one of the daughters yea the eldest daughter of the very whore of Babylon railing on her as if she living in continuall spirituall fornications brought forth sonnes and daughters not unto Christ but unto Antichrist his adversary By which their faults and fallings as they have deprived themselves of those gracious blessings which they did long and might have still enjoyed amongst us to their soules health and made the meanes of their recovery more hard and difficult so have they troubled and disquieted many remaining in the body of our Church and of strong men in the truth brought them to be children again in understanding easie to bee carried about with every blast of diverse and strange doctrines how contrary soever to the truth according unto godlinesse either taught or received by them The case thus standing we take it to be our duties being members and Ministers of this Church having by Gods grace received some though a small measure of gifts fit thereunto as to maintaine the credit of the Church wherein we live And to justifie the practise of our ministerie therein so farre forth as truth will permit so chiefely to seeke and endeavour both the recoverie of those that are strayed from the sheepfold of Christ amongst us and also the stay of those that are ready to runne after them together with the better grounding and confirming of them who remaine in the flocke with comfort under their shepheards which duty we have endeavoured to performe heretofore by publike preaching and private conferences as occasions hath beene offered and now have bestowed our labours in writing this treatise following to the same end wherein after wee have proved by certaine reasons that our Assemblies are the true Church of God we take upon us to shew First The foure chiefest exceptions they take against our Church for warranting Schisme and separation from us are vaine and frivelous Secondly That the maine grounds they stand upon for the erecting their new Church are weake and slender Thirdly that the best arguments that they use for condemning us and justifying themselves are loose and unsufficient which points as we have gathered out of their printed books and written papers where they were before scattered and brought into one forme and body so have we more plainely and nakedly both proposed and dealt in passing by all impertinent and offensive matters And their flouting declamations petitions exclamations and bitter reviling speeches against our Churches Ministers and people all their reprochfull slanderous profane scornings fearefull blasphemies against the Word preached and Sacraments administred prayers and holy exercises of Religion used in our Assemblies wherewith their writings and printings swell to some bignes as Bladders puffed up with winde All these though wee have given the Reader some taste of their spirit in them yet have wee not in our Treatise stood upon them for that wee judge them not worthy the answer This worke

societie They yet remember it is a part of wisdome to stay the full establishing of their Church and practise of the Ordinances thereof for a time that they may see what blessings of God bee upon it for the ratifying and approving of their doings for if it bee of God it will stand as an house founded upon a a sure Rocke if it bee of men it will come to naught A third sort to whom we commend this worke of ours are our stronger brethren which continue with comfort in the societie of their Church them wee intreat that if they finde any confirmation or strengthening unto their consciences by the pursuing hereof any increase of knowledge and ability to maintaine the truth of our Church Sacraments and word to defend the lawfulnesse of our ministerie and practise of Gods externall worship amongst us That first they praise God whose gift it is that any thing is spoken or written for their edification instruction and consolation and then bestow the same as occasion shall be offered to the reclaiming of those that are straied and holding them that are ready to wander Wee lastly commend this simple travell of ours to the Church of God whereof we are unworthy Ministers beseeching her to accept our poore endeavours the rather for that wee are not ignorant that the labours which we have taken in this cause will be diversly judged of according to the manner and affection of those men to whom this worke shall come Some as namely our deceived Brethren against whom we deale will hold it damnable and execrable as being bestowed against the Church of Christ against the Saints and children of God against the holy Truth taught in the Testament of Christ yea and that contrary to the light of our own consciences and knowledge of our owne hearts To the first part of this their charge and accusation we answer That whether they or wee be the true Church of God whether they or wee have the Truth taught in the Testament of Christ is the matter in controversie betwixt us If wee be the Church of God and have the Truth of Christ as we hope shall appeare by this Treatise then have they written and spoken against the Church of God and that in most shamefull and fearefull manner If they be the true Church of God and have his Truth which we assure our selves they shall be never able to prove then have wee spent our labours against the Church of God But have we done it wittingly and willingly against the light of our hearts This is indeed the second part of their charge but who made them the searchers of our hearts and judges of our consciences that they should accuse us to Im other and quench the light of Truth which hath shined into our soules especially when they heare our protestations to the contrary where is that Charitie that thinketh none evill which hopeth all things we say therefore unto the second part of their accusation with the Apostle We say the Truth in Christ our consciences bearing us witnesses in the holy Ghost that we can say nothing against the Truth but for the Truth wittingly and willingly And in the Testamonie thereof we pray God that our tongues may cleave to the roofe of our mouthes when we endeavour to speake and that our pennes may sticke to the ends of our fingers when wee attempt to write any thing against the Church Children or Truth of God Some others Fathers and Brethren Ministers and Members with us of this Church finding by our manner of writeing of what judgemeut wee are will hold our paines requisite and necessarie to stay the course of these waters which wee have given passage unto and to make up the breaches wee have opened by speaking against the government established in this Church the Ceremonies used therein and other our unadvised dealings in the execution of our Ministrie To these men wee say first that as we have beene and are perswaded of the Truth of these things which we have delivered touching the defects and wants the blemishes and deformities of this Church So have we in the sincerity and uprightnesse of our hearts dealt for the redresse and Reformation thereof Wherein though we know nothing by our selves before men more then Truth will permit if they should have taken occasion by our doctrine which we perswade our selves to be the doctrine of the Truth to make this Schisme Yet were this no reason to reprove us unlesse those men which have set downe true positions be to be blamed as Authors of the false Collections and Conclusions which are inferred and gathered thereupon Secondly wee answer That our deceived Brethren do no lesse condemne those Churches of God as the Synagogues of Sathan where the doctrine which wee have taught touching the government of the Church and matters of Ceremonies is maintained and where all things which wee hold offensive in our Church are abolished then they doe the Church of England insomuch that they have written of the Church of Geneva which is holden to be the best pattern of a Reformed Church that it became a miserable president and pernicious example even unto all Europe whereby it is evident that they have beene brought unto this Scisme by some other inducements then the dealing of those men in-the execution of their Ministrie who are charged to be the occasions if not the Authors thereof Thirdly there is such difference and plaine contradiction betweene them and us in judgement yea in the matter of discipline and Church government besides many other materiall points of doctrine as we marvell any men should esteeme us causes of their defections from this Church much more that any man should write That between the Brownists and others he meaneth them and us there is no controversie as touching the framing of a Church by the word of God A third sort of our loving Brethren approving our care of Gods Church and desire to reclaime poore deceived soules will yet happily esteeme our labour altogether needlesse and superfluous as spent and bestowed both against a cause that hath so little shew of truth and semblance of probabilitie nay so evident appearance of falshood and vanity as it is rather to be despised then confuted and also upon men whose zeale and rashnesse so far prevailes over sound judgement and discretion that we shall rather sharpen and increase their humour by thinking them worthy answering to a further contradiction then either informe their understanding by sound reason or alter their affection by efficacie of any perswasion These Brethren wee desire to give us leave to dissent from them who judge far otherwise of this cause wee handle and hope much better of the persons against whom we deale for the cause it selfe we say that though it did appeare as it is indeed full of falshood and and vanitie unto these that have the gift to discerne betweene those things that differ and withall to temper their affections which

workes viz. preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments the censures of admonition suspension excommunication and provision for the necessitie of the poore are in many of our Assemblies performed and by Law ought to be in all that there ore we cannot justlie be said to be without the discipline of Christ but rather that we having the discipline of Christ which is most substantiall doe want the other and so exercile it not rightlie that is to say not by those Officers which Christ ●ath appointed Secondly It is well knowne that the chiefe works and discipline Secondly The chiefe workes of Christs Discipline are exercised with us even by those Officers that he appointed namely the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments and consequentlie the principiall part of that power to binde and loose which Christ gave to his Church is not only exercised in manie o● our Assemblies but exercised also by those very Officers which Christ hath appointed for us the Lawes of our land doe authorize the Minister to staie from the Lords Table all such as are uncatechised and out of charitie or any otherwise publike offenders as appeareth in the Rubrick before the Communion and in that which is after confirmation And from whence else commeth the trouble of many of our Ministers but from the exercising of this authoritie even from the suspending of the ungodly from the Sacrament and stinging their consciences by the preaching of the word Thirdly Thirdly though the ●●●p●ine were not exercised at all with us it could not therefore follow that we have it not Fourthly Though even through ignorance or fearefulnesse wee were kept frō it yet might wee have right and authoritie to use it Though none of our Assemblies did use this power it followeth not from therce that we have it not No more than it doth follow that the rich churle hath no monie because he useth none and that a man therefore hath no authoritie because hee doth not exercise any Fourthly Admit we were not able through want of knowledge and courage to use this power Yet followeth it not that therefore wee want the right and authoritie to use it For if those Churches which the Prophet reproveth a Ezek. 22.26 for putting no difference between the holy and prophane or that which the Apostle blameth for not putting the incestuous person from among them had they wanted authoritie to use this power how could they justlie have beene reproved for neglecting the exercising thereof Lastly Though it were granted that we wanted both the exercise of the Churches censures and some of those Officers which our Saviour hath appointed to exercise them by Yet might wee bee a true visible Church notwithstanding there was a true Church in Iudah all the daies of Asa b 1 Cor 5.1 2. and Iehosaphat a 2 Chro. 15.9.10 17 5 9 yet was not the discipline reformed there till the latter daies of Iehosaphats Reigne b 2 Chro. 19 8 11. Ezek 22.26 That also was a true Church even then when the Apostles found this fault with them d 1 Cor. 5.1 2. the Congregation at Samariah is called a Church before the discipline was established there And even in Jerusalem there was a famous visible Church of Christ long before sundry parts of the discipline for want whereof they condemne us were established there yea it is evident that by the Apostles themselves diverse Churches were gathered some good space of time g Acts 13.43 14 11 21 23. Tit 5.5 before the discipline was setled or exercised e Acts 8.12.19 31. Acts 2.41 42. by all which is manifest that how necessary soever those parts of the discipline which we want be to the beautie and well being or preservation of the Church Yet are they not necessary to the being therof but that a true Church may be without them And as we may well call him a man that wanteth not only sundry parts of his body as an Arme or a Legge or Eye but is also distempered much even in the Braine and Liver and heart and the rest of the vi●all parts so may wee rightly call that a Church which not only wanteth sundry of those Officers which Christ hath ordained but hath also even in the ministerie of the word and the profession of the true faith which are as it were the braine and heart of a true Church much maimednesse and distemper The places of Scripture which they alleadge to disprove this which wee have said are unskilfully applyed In the collection of Letters and conferences page 69. Ephes 4.11 12. Rom. 12.8 for the one of them mentio eth no other ordinary officers out Pastors and Teachers which our Church professeth the other though it proveth there should bee other Officers besides them there named yet doth it not affirme that without them there can be no true Church OBJECT IIII. The fourth thing which they object against the whole body of our Assemblies is this Object The fourth Objection against the whole body of our Assemblies is that we stand under the Popish Church government w●● reason also is insufficient to warrant their separation That we stand under us they say a false and Antichristian government for that wee are directed by and subject to Canons Courts and authoritie of the Bishops which they do not content themselves in the 68.69 page of their collection of Letters and conferences to call Popish and Antichristian and Aegyptian and Babylonish Tokes but in regard thereof they say our Assemblies Cast our Sathan by the power of Sathan To this fourth objection we make this answer First Seeing it hath beene already shewed that the discipline which our Church exerciseth is in substance the same with that which Christ instituted they cannot with any colour of truth say that all our Church government is Popish and Antichristian but only that it is popishly and corruptly administred Answ 1. The substance of our discipline is Christ and not Antichrists 2 Thes 10.11 2 Tim. 4.1.3 1 Iohn 2.22 1 Iohn 4 3. Iohn 7. Revel 13.5 16. Secondly Though it were confessed that in the callings and authoritie of the Bishops there bee diverse things Antichristian Yet see we not how our Bishops could truly be called Antichrists or Antichristians because first the word when it describeth Antichrist and teacheth us how to know him useth to marke him out by his false doctrine Neither can we find in holy Scripture any such accounted an Antichrist or Antichristian who holding the truth of doctrine and professing all the fundamentall Articles of the faith doth swerve either in judgment or practise from that rule which Christ hath given for the discipline of his Church Now it is evident that our Bishops both doe and by the Lawes of our Land ought to hold and teach all doctrines and truths that are fundamentall Yea some of them have learnedly and soundly maintained the truth against Heretickes

Civill estate and of every particular person in both all things being innovated in both according to the Iusts and pleasures of men the Law and Word of God being quite rejected and cast aside And in the 212. page of their refutation of Master Gifford They have these words We hold that you have poysoned all the fountaines of sincere doctrine and perverted the whole Testament and turned away the practise thereof by your damnable false expositions Yea that you teach not one point sincerely And in the 162. page of this discovery They are made socontrary one to another as it is an impossible thing to finde two of them in one minde yea or any one of them constant in that he affirmeth they know not the Doctrine even of the beginning of Christ Adde hereto Henry Barrowes words 12 and 23. pages of their collections of Letters and conference We will not give any answer to these speeches but onely desire the Christian Reader to consider whether ever Gods Spirit taught any to write so slanderously not onely against a whole Nation the conversion whereof they pretend to seeke but against the blessed Truth of God And how unlikely it is that they should bee in the right way whose chiefe leaders were guided by such a spirit That they should be the Lords building whose first founders and Master builders had either so small skill or so bad a Conscience Doe we not hold all the same books of Canonicall Scriptures which they themselves doe Doe wee not reject out of the Canon all which themselves account Apochryphall Have they any translation of holy Scripture besides ours Doe they themselves beleeve or teach otherwise in the Articles of the holy Trinity of justification of predestination then wee doe Hath every member of their Assemblies recovered that spirit of truth whereby they are led into all truth as Henry Barrow page 107. of his discovery affirmeth And is there not any one amongst us that hath not quite rejected the whole Word of God Not any one that knoweth the doctrine even of the beginning of Christ We know no better way to convince them in this then by appealing unto their Consciences which we are sure will take our parts against them Now this reason also is strong to prove us a true Church for although the bare letter of the Scripture may be found amongst the Jewes and Papists and other Heretickes Which none ran doe but the true Church Yet was there never any people that held and maintained the true sence of the Scripture in all points fundamentall but only the Church of God whereunto onely this title belongeth to bee the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tun. 3.15 A people may bee a true Church though they hnow not nor hold every truth contained in the Scriptures wherein wee desire the Reader to consider that a people may be the true Church though they know not nor hold not every truth contained in the holy Scriptures but contrarily hold many errours repugnant to the Scriptures Yet hath Henry Barrow affirmed in the 167. page of his discovery That to the people of God and every one of them God hath given his holy sanctifying spirit to open unto them and leade them unto all truth Whereby it is most evident that he would have none to be accounted the people and Church of God who either know not or practise not every truth contained in the holy Scriptures In which opinion see I pray you how grosse and dangerous errors are contained First That to every inseriour member in the Church there is as much reveiled as to the Pastors and chiefe members whereas the Apostle affirmeth Romans 12.3 Ephes 4 16. eol 2.19 that the Holy Ghost is given to every member of the body of Christ not equally but proportionably as the place which it occupieth in the bodie doth require Secondly That the promise mentioned Iohn 16.13 Should be made to every member of the Church which in the last words of the verse appeareth plainely to be particular to the Apostles Thirdly That the Church cannot erre and so neither were the Corinthians rightly called the Church of God when they judged corruptly of fornication and of the Resurrection Neither they of Pergamus when the Doctrine of Balaam was maintained among them Neither were Paul and the rest of the Apostles true Members of the Church who though in the exercises of their Apostolicall function they could not erre yet knew but in part and in many things were subject to error (a) 1 Cor. 13 9. Another strange opinion is amongst them maintained in the 156,157 of the discovery viz. That every truth contained in the Scripture is fundamentall For although we affirme not as he thereslandereth us That some part of Scripture is more holy more authenticall or more true then other Note Yet doubt we not to say that some parts are of more use and more necessary for men to know then othersome Else why doth the Holy Ghost oft give speciall commendation to some parts more than to other 1 Tim 4.11 Titus 3.8 Make 4 3● why doth he as it were make Proclamation and solemne oyesses before some and not before other Why doth hee use a speciall art in some parts rather than in other And although wee doe not hold as they falsly charge us in the forenamed page of their discovery That some parts of holy Scripture are of small moment superficiall needlesse and of no necessitie such as may be altered and violated without any prejudice or danger at all to the soule and much lesse that a man that hath obstinately continued in the transgression of some parts and openly taught the same unto others may be undoubtedly saved though he die without Repentance but on the contrary wee beleeve and teach that there is no part of holy Scripture which every Christian is not necessarily bound to seeke and desire the knowledge of so farre forth as in him lieth yet dare wee not call every truth fundamentall that is such as if it be not obeyed and known the whole Religion and faith of the Church must needs fall to the ground For we doe make no question but that the thiefe that was crucified and the Eunuch even then when he was baptized by Philip were in the state of salvation though they could not choose but bee ignorant of many truths in Religion The only fundamentall truth in Religion is this That Jesus Christ the Sonne of God who tooke our nature of the Virgin Mary is our only and all-sufficient Saviour For first they that receive this truth are the people of God and in the state of salvation they that receive it not cannot possibly bee saved (a) Mat. 16.17 104.2 Col. 3.17 Iohn 20.31 Ephos 2.20 Secondly There is no other point of Christian Religion necessary otherwise then as it tendeth necess rily to the bringing us unto or confirming us in the assurance of this one truth (b) Heb. 13.8

the losse of those things wherein the very life and being of a visible Church consisteth either to remove the corruptions that remaine amongst us or to establish those Church orders which wee want for although we doubt not but the whole truth of Christs doctrine may be lawfully taught though all the Magistrates in the world gaine-say it and practised also so farre forth by every Christian as the bounds of his particular calling permits and that it is the Magistrates principall honour in the sight of God and man to yeeld and submit himselfe to the instructions reproofes and censures of the Church so far forth as they are agreeable to the Word of God who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings Yet cannot we not see good reason to perswade us that the Church ought or may either pull downe corrupt Church government or erect the right discipline not onely without but contrary to the likeing of Christian Magistrates Thus much we finde in the Word of God Godly Princes First That in those publicke reformations of the Church which the word commendeth the Christian and godly Princes were ever the principall actors Secondly That for the want of publicke Reformation the Magistrate is every where blamed and no where the Church for ought we can find oft are the Priests and people blamed for erecting and practising Idolatry but never for that they plucked it not downe when their Princes had set them up Neither can wee finde whether ever the Church under a Christian Magistrate was by any Prophet either commanded to deale otherwise then by perswasion in publike Reformation when the Magistrate neglected it or reproved for the contrarie To that which they were wont to say then the Apostles were much to blame who in erecting the Church government never waited for nor sought the Magistrates leave and good likeing Wee answer that though without the Magistrates leave they did it Yet not contrarie to his liking or when he opposed his authoritie directly and inhibited it the never erected the discipline when there was so direct an opposition made against it by the civill Magistantes Secondly If it could bee proved that the Apostles did so then yet would it not follow that we also may doe so now for neither was the Heathen Magistrate altogether so much to bee respected by the Church as the Christian Magistrate is neither have our Ministers and people now so full and absolute a power to pull downe and set up orders in the Church as the Apostles those wise Master builders had Lastly though this were all proved Fisthly though we did voluntarily continue in those knowne wants corruptions having power to redresse them yet might we be the true Church notwithstanding that our Assemblies are throughly convinced in these points and that we having power to reforme that which is amisse doe yet voluntarily continue in those wants and corruptions yet might we be the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding for as true faith in Christ not morall obedience is that which giveth life and being to every true member of the Church so the profession of true faith in Christ rather than obedience is that which giveth the life and being to a visible Assembly So wee reade that many upon their profession of faith were baptized and incorporated into the Church a Acts 8.12 13 16 31 32. So that which made the Romuns a true Church in the judgment of Paul was that their faith was published throughout the world b Rom. 1.8 And generally that which made the Gentiles to whom hee preached a true Church was that they gave obedience of faith neither doe wee see what difference they will make betwixt the covenant of workes and the covenant of grace c Rom. 1.5 if they hold obedience to the Commandements of God necessary to the life and first being of a true Christian Church And as a wife ceaseth not to be a wife though in many things shee cease to be wilfully disobedient to her husband unlesse she sin either by desertion or whoredom and be divorced So neither the Church ceaseth to be the Church and Spouse of Christ till she be both sufficiently convinced of Atheisme or Idolatry and be divorced also the Lord taking from her His Word and Sacraments and all other his spirituall Jewells and Ornaments In the third Chapter of Ieremy both Israel and Iudah were charged with Idolatry and yet must we needs confesse that they still continued the true Church of God unlesse wee will say there was at that time no true visible Church in the world which was most absurd to affirme So the Corinthians being in the first Epistle convinced of the sinne of Idolatry d 1 Cor. 10.14 and other sinnes e 2 Cor. 6.14 12 21 13 2 the Church remaining in them as appeareth in the second Epistle f 2 Cor. 1.1 did yet continue to be the true Church of God notwithstanding and so are called in the same Epistle That which Henry Barrow in the 94. page of their refutation excuseth this Church by viz. that it was orderly gathered and established may as well bee alleadged for our Assemblies as for the Church of Cor. as we hope may appeare by that which hath been above said in our Answer to the first Objection they make against the whole body of our Church He that was once a brother though he persist in his sinnes he hath beene convinced of not by one brother only but by two or three yea though he commit some presumptuous sinnes ceaseth not to bee a brother notwithstanding Matth. 18.15 16. how much lesse shall a Church cease to be a true Church b Psalme 19. because it hath been convinced of some grosse corruptions by one or some few The high places were continued in Israel and Iudab and that under the Reigne of sundry good Kings notwithstanding the reproofe of many Prophets Yet were they of Israel and Iudah accounted the Church still neither did the Prophets cease to communicate with them c 2 Kings 1.3 15.3 Neither would those that remained in Babylon after the Proclamation of Cyrus which was also the Commandement of God d 2 Chro. 36.22 Ezra 2.2 to returne thrust out of the account of the Church as appeareth by the communion of them with the Church of Ierusalem and the bookes of Ezra and Nehemiah notwithstanding partly in feare of the danger partly in a love of the commoditie which they setled themselves in during the captivitie they did not build the Temple in person but only sent mony for the building Lastly the Apostle setteth downe a Rule which is directly contrary to this fourth Article of their first exception in these words Let us therefore as many as are perfect bee thus mind d and if in any thing ye be otherwise mind d Philip. 3.15 God shall reveale the same unto you Neverthelesse Whereto we have already attained let us walke by the

that have gai●●aid it some have not only by their doctrine and ministerie converted many to the truth but have suffered persecution also for the Gospell and though Henry Barrow in the eleventh page of his discoverie call them Pseudo-Martyrs and run-away professors yet can hee not prove that they all since their accepting their rooms renounced and are fallen from that truth which they then suffered for Secondly Their Hierarchie and other their corruptions that are charged upon the calling of our Bishops were rather to bee esteemed as the staires and way to Antichristianitie then Antichristianitie it selfe which is evident by this that they were in the Church before the Pope who is the Antichrist and the chiefe head-linke of all Antichristianitie was revealed Thirdly The Antichristian Bishops hold their preheminence as from GODS Law which is unchangeable Whereas our Bishops since her Majesties Reigne untill this day for the most part held their superioritie by no other right then by the positive Law which is variable Yea it appeareth both by the institution of the Courts of deligates and by the continuance thereof to this day that they doe and ought by Law to hold their jurisdiction not as from God but as from he Prince Thirdly Thirdly if they were yet might we be the true Church Admit that both our Bishops and the government by them exercised were Antichristian yet might wee that stand in that sort as we doe be subject unto them that are the true Church of Christ it is evident that to speake properly the Yoke of Antichrist is only inward and spirituall where the faith and Conscience are enjoyned upon paine of damnation to receive other Lawes and worship then that which God in his word prescribeth and even to this Yoke the true Church hath beene often subject or else the Church of the Jewes even in the dayes of Christ was no true Church that held themselves bound in conscience to observe sundry traditions of the Elders In a more large sense those Prelates are called Antichristian that joyne civill jurisdiction with Ecclesiasticall or usurpe more than they ought in externall government or tyrannously abuse the power committed to their hands and this Antichristian Yoke also the true Church hath borne many a time in the dayes of the Macchabees there was a true Church among the Jewes yet did the Priests exercise civill jurisdiction There was a true Church Ier● 5.31 20.1 both in Jeremies and Ezekiels dayes which yet did beare this Antichristian Yoke the authoritie which our Bishops are said to usurpe over the Ministers Ezek. 34.4 Which had not-needed if the Church could have suppressed or withstood them and Church is not worse than that which Di●trephes usurped for besides that hee sought for an Antichristian preheminence it is evident that the Church was unable to resist him and therefore the Apostle purposed himselfe to come and rebuke him Their own termes they use in this viz. Aegyptian and Babylonish Yoke shall teach them thus much for seeing that the Ieues remained still the Church of God even in that bondage that they stood under in Aegypt and Babylon why may not wee also remaine God Church still notwithstanding the Yoke which wee beare being nothing so heavie as that was OBJECT V. The last thing they object against the whole body of our Assemblies The fifth Objection against the whole body of our Church is that we obstinately continue in the aforesaid wants and corruptions though we have bin duly convinced 1. Objection is false and insufficient to warrant their separation for some of our assemblies have mourned for that which is amisse and by all due meanes sought reformation Secondly some maintaine corruptions and oppugne the discipline because they are not yet in their consciences perswaded of the things Tit. 3.11 is this That wee ob●tinately continue in the aforesaid wants and corruptions though we have beene convinced concerning this point they have these words in the 23. page of their refutation Wee hold withall that no true Church or Christian will maintaine any sinne or error when it is evidently shewed and convinced to them by the Word of God much lesse persecute such as reprove and admonish them as you do In the 164. pag. they charge us with wilfull obstinacie open rejecting and resisting the truth c. To this reason we also give this answer That neither doe our Assemblies continue in the aforesaid wants and corruptions neither if they did should they therefore cease to be a true Church for First It is evident that many Ministers and Congreations have both by prayer unto God and all meanes that have been in their powers to use testified unto men their earnest desire to have these corruptions removed and the true discipline established Secondly The most of them that maintaine the evills that are amongst us and repugne the reformation which the rest have sought cannot bee justly charged with wilfull obstinacie or committing those things wherein their own consciences doe condemne them for seeing they professe and pretend that they are not yet in their judgment perswaded of these things and the whole conversation of many of them is such as gives us just cause to believe them who dare be so presumptuous as to judge thus of their hearts and consciences though hee were sure they have wanted no meanes whereby they might have beene convinced Considering that it is one thing to have had the meanes of convincing another thing to be convinced the former whereof may bee performed to us by men the other by the Lord only and that a people in whom some right meanes of convincing have not been effectuall may as well be the true Church of God as they that have received and profited by all right meanes that have beene used for their instruction and reformation of life Thirdly We have not yet had the right meanes used to convince us in sundry of those matters Thirdly Wee have not had so much as the right meanes used to convince us in these things which are in controversie between them and us that are in controversie betweene us and them for proofe whereof we referre our selves to the answer which we will hereafter make unto their articles in their conclusion Fourthly Though not only the right meanes had been used to convict us but they had also so farre prevailed with us that in judgment we saw the truth which they say is not practised amongst us and in heart did affect it yet would this sufficiently cleere us from the crime of wilfull obstinacie that wee have not power without the consent and permission of Christian Magistrates under whom we live by whose meanes we enjoy so many great benefits Fourthly Although wee were all throughly convinced yet have wee not power and warrant from God to redresse publike disorders and erect the discipline without the consent of the Christian Magistrates and whom if wee should thus farre provoke we should evidently hazzard