will peaceably joyne with them in the Kingdom under that Power and not to trouble the Magistrate further and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right as the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way theirs and all alike under the same Civill Power and neither of them with it and all other Reformed Kingdomes in unity of the Spirit and love to one another Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences 1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office but the Magistrate may rule with them THe Eldership and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations but now as the anointing is not so nor is the Office pure peculiar and distinct the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spirituall as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery and may therfore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations as they unlesse their Churches Officers and Gifts were more Christs then they are 2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices Gifts c. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin then they 3. Vniformity in the Word of God is the Vniformity of Churchâ—â— They that presse the Covenant for Vniformity so penally as they do make it a snare of compulsion not in the Word of it but in their Interpretation of that Word unity in the Spirit makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Vniformity in Laws Ecclesiasticall then in Civill but may walke together as Beleevers so far as they have attained that clause according to the Word of God makes roome for the severall statures of Christ and measures of light in the Covenant and they that agree in that are truly Vniforme for it is the Vniformity with the Word not with one another but so far as we are all alike in that Word which is the very Vniformity of the Kingdom of Christ 4. The Magistrate as they now make him is Ecclesiasticall as well as they They that ascribe a Power to any to compleat and actuate them in their Ministration do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so informe and compleat them so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery doth imply a Presbyteriall and Ecclesiasticall Power in that State and if so the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church as any ruling Officer they have 5. The present Presbytery in mystery both over and under the Magistrate They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery tell me in what spheare or where rule they for over it they are not Commissioners they say are contrary to the Word and under it they are not for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto â—â— so as they who are so much in the dark with their Government do with Magistracy they know not what and would place it they know not where The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate then the Erastian and how the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in Gospell-order but a Kingdom of Beleevers in generall and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to Gospell-order and till both this Nationall Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ and those very Officers of Christ the Magistrate may as lawfully yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer Minister or Elder amongst them for Magistrates have the whole Kingdome of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Beleevers not a Church they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds or lesse his own so as the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church Ministers and Elders nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church Ministery and Eldership for all Scripture proofes of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership according to Truth not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved â—â—ue no Scripture either alleadged for Presbytery belongs to them nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate as from the Church of Christ Conclusion These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature which is of high concernment in the things of Gospell-order as any point now abroad for surely it is not a Vniversity a Cambridge or Oxford a Pulpii and Blacke gowne or Cloake makes one a true Minister of Iesus Christ though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificiall unction for that true one of the Spirit and the Ministery hath beene so cloathed with Art and Habit that if the Apostles should live again and preach in that plainnesse they came they would be as despised for we wonder after the Wise the Scribe and the Disputer of this World FINIS An End of ONE CONTROVERSIE BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOKE called LIGHT FOR SMOKE One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER Which he writ lately against me In which the Summe of his last Booke which relates to the most materiall Passages in it is gathered up and replied to By Iohn Saltmarsh not revolted as Master Ley saith from a Pastorall Calling but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops and now a Preacher of the Gospell Isa 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darknesse for light Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing and some another for the Assembly was confused and the most part knew not wherfore they were come together Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this he dismissed the Assembly LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speake fairely in his owne just defence and the Law of Grace requiring him to speake zealously in the defence of Truth I thinke it equall that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed April 15. 1646. John Bachiler The LETTER
godlinesse Whether all your Fastings and Repentance were from true meltings of heart sound humiliation or because the State called for it and constrained it Whether your praying and preaching was not much of it Self of Invention of Parts of Art of Learning of seeking praise from man Oh should the light of the Spirit come in clearnesse and glory upon your spirit Oh! how much of Self of Hypocrisie of Vanity of Flesh of Corruption would appeare how would all be unprofitable For my part I cannot be so uncharitable but to wish you a better assurance then what you and your Brethren can find in your own works or righteousnesse For it is not what we approve but what God approves is accepted And I am perswaded however you are now loth it may be to lose reputation by going out of an old track of Divinity as Luther once yet when once your spirit begins to be unclothed of forms of darknesse and art of self-righteousnesse and that you with open face behold the glory of the Lord you will cry out Wo is me I am undone for I have seen the Lord and Lord depart from me for I am a sinfull creature and What went I out to see My owne unrighteousnesse or rather A Reed shaken with the winde An Answer to a Book intituled A Plea for Congregationall Government or A Defence of the Assemblies Petition c. YOu write thus 1 That the independents confesse you a true Church and Minstery 2 Those that are ordained by Bishops may be true Ministers else how am I a Preacher or they true Ministers 3 Succession is not necessary to the essence of a true Ministery 4 If no true Ministery no true Baptisme 5 Must not there be persons ordaining and persons ordained And so the dissenting Brethren hold 6 That you abuse the Assembly in citing their Humble Advice touching the Divine Right of a Congregationall Presbyteriall and not of the other The Independents assort a Divine Right there and in Synods too as they do They hold a Divine Right in one as well as the other 7 Their ordination by Bishops though it should be null yet they have all you can alleadge necessary to a Preacher 8 Parishes here are but as in New-England as in Jerusalem Antioch 9 Some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods an holy Ordinance of God and this Assembly so to be 10 If no Presbyteries must be of Divine Right because not infallibly gifted this concludes against Presbyteries and Ordinances 11 If you would have them content with a mixed power partly prudentiall because of their mixt dnointing you contradict that pure one you plead for 12 The Apostles and Elders and Angels of the Churches of Asia were not infallible as in divers practices 13 To say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word is little lesse then Blasphemy 14 The Presbyterians in France and Scotland and the Netherlands do not so imbroyle Kingdoms The feare of excommunicating Parliaments and Kingdoms is but a Bugbeare 15 They aske not of the State an Ecclesiasticall-power but a liberty to exercise that power 16 Hath Christâ— said that in a sound Church Church-Officers shall excommunicate and in an nnsound the Magistrate shall do it 17 He may in time say as much against Equity and justice living upon voyces in Assemblies as against Truth Answer To the first That the Independents confesse you a true Chruch and Ministery You are not to prove what others confesse or hold you to be but what you are indeed according to Truth Nor do I contend with those that hold you so but with you that hold your selves so as the Spirit to the Laodiceans Thou sayest thou art full c. and behold thou art poore c. To the second That they ordained by Bishops are true Ministers as the Independents and I a Preacher for all that Ordination If you meane that the Bishops Ordination makes not one for ever a false or Antichristian Minister I grant it because it is no marke to them that renounce it Babylon is no more Babylon to them that are gone out of it But what is this to your Ministery or Ordination who are yet under the Marke and Babylonish Ordination Renounce it come out as the Spirit cals ye and then your being Antichristian is no more to ye then to the Ephesians that they should be lesse light because they were once darknesse or lesse alive because they were once dead To the third That Succession is not necessary to a true Ministery It is both true and false in severall acceptions When there was a true power they ordained others and others them There was succession But that being lost under Antichrist so far as visibly to derive it to us there can be no such true visible Succession appearing And yet you that pretend to stand by the first power must prove your Succession if you will prove your power To the Fourth If no true Ministery no true Baptism For that as you please I dare not exalt the truth of your Baptism above that of your Ministery no more then you To the Fifth The dissenting Brethren hold there must be persons ordaining and ordained as well as we Yeâ— but do they hold Bishops ordaining and Presbyters ordained by Bishops and Presbyters of their ordaining ordaining others as you do To the Sixth of my unjust citing the Assemblies Modell or Humble Advice and that there is no more Divine Right asserted in the Congregationall Presbytery then in the Classicall c. which is done so by the dissenting Brethren I answer Let the Modell be printed to the world to end the difference betwixt you and me And for the Divine Right of the one and the other I am of your mind they are able to prove both alike of Divine Right that is in their Presbytery The one is no more of Divine Right then the other and neither of them of any And for the dissenting Brethren it is not them but you I deale with Why come you under their shadow in a storme and yet will let them have no liberty under yours but would turne us all abroad as Hereticks and Schismaticks To the Seventh Though the Ordination by Bishops be null yet they have the other necessaries to a Preacher Will ye undertake for the Assembly they shall stand to this that all their former Ordination by Bishops is null If so we are agreed if not all their other necessaries are no more then Ahabs peace What peace saith Jehu so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Iezebell are alive So what Ministery so long as the whoredoms of Babylon yet remaine To the Eighth That the Parishes are but as in New-England as in Ierusalem c. I pray forbeare this it is too manifest an errour Are the Parishes of England and Churches of Ierusalm one and the same so discipled so constituted Were all of Ierusalem and Antioch reckoned for Christs Congregations as all Parishes are To the Ninth
c. And those Families the children of the Bond-woman and of the free never bearing but persecuting each other So as all of pure spirituall constitution cannot but experimentally finde a spirituall nature in themselves working them into a more glorious fellowship then that of the world The sum of the Argument If then there be two contrary natures of Spirit and Flesh if these cannot nor never could in experience of all Ageâ— and according to the truth in Scriptures and example of all there beare each other into the same spirituall society or fellowship if nature it selfe in the creatures run out into antipathies and sympathies that is into particular gatherings and separations mutuall opposings and resistings of each other when together Then spirituall and unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world and men of the world is warrantable But all this is undeniably true to the experience of all Therefore spirituall unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world and men of the world is warrantable II. Argument from the Power of Spirituall Ordinances and Dispensations THe Gospel-Ordinances brought into the World a power and spiritual Law in them though in degrees and measures and severall givings out as in Johns time and his Disciples in Christs owne time and his Disciples and in the Spirits time and according to these times of manifestation believers were wrought upon in Johns time they came out to the Baptism of Water in Christs and his Disciples to the preaching of the Word in the Spirits time to the Bâ—pâ—â—sme of the Spirit to a more mighty and glorious working and all these times of Gospel-manifestation had a prevailing losse and more upon the believers of these severall times in drawing them out from the World in part though weakly in Johns time it is said Then came out unto him all Judea yet though they were Baptised of him they gathered not off into such particular societies as after The Kingdome of God then was but at hand in Christs time though his preaching was powerfull yet he let out the glory of his spirit but sometimes with the Word reserving his more glorious manifestations for other times and even here though Christs preaching gathered in his Apostles and Disciples into some particular and neerer way to himselfe yet not many more nay he rather left many partly in that mixed condition of society he found them and so the Disciples Commission which was given was to preach but little yet of Church gathering but by way of Prophecy as in Matt. 16. and 18. The Kingdome of God was but yet at hand not come In the Spirits time then the Kingdome of God was come and then a mighty operation and measure of the Spirit was powred out and then the believers through the powerfull working were brought more off from the World and began to gather in closer to Christ and one another And now all power was given to Christ which was not before his Resurrection and now he sets up a Kingdome All power is given into my hands and now the Kingdom begins to be set up in the hearts and practice of believers and the Spirit to mold and cast the believers into Brotherhoods and societies and the forme of a Kingdome and now the Laws and spirituall policy are given out for ordering this Kingdome And we see how the people of God in Rome Corinth Ephesus Galatia drew off from the world in the things of the Lord. We see then how the Word did begin to worke Believers into a fellowship from the world and the more the spirit was given the more and more off from the world in all these severall times And it is a rationall truth and a clear conclusion even to meer reason that the more Christ and his Spirit is in any the more neer and close they will gather up to heaven and walkings with God and the more Christward any one is the more off still from the multitude of the world And thus the Ordinances of Jesus Christ in which the Spirit breathes so powerfully worke men off from the mixed world into fellowship with the Lord and that spirituall fellowship makes them rejoyce more in one another then in any other that are more carnall The more men live to Christ the more they dye to the world and are formed into the fellowship of his death and Resurrection The sum of the Argument If then the Ordinances and Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ had ever a power in some degree of prevailing upon the soules of Believers according to the manifestation of the Spirit and if this Spirit flowing from God and Christ carry up the soule to God and Christ according to the measure given to those Beleevers and if the more they are carried towards Christ the more they must come off from the world Then Congregationall or Church-order wherein Beleevers are gathered into fellowship with God in Christ and one another from the world in the things of the Gospell and unmixt communion is warrantable But all this is undeniably true from the Word Therefore Church-fellowship and unmixt Communion is warrantable Argument III. IF mixed communion and society came in upon the Apostacy and falling away and Parochiall Congregations were formed up afterwards from such mixt Communion If as Antichrist prevailed so darknesse and corruption prevailed upon Beleevers If Churches were called Golden Candlesticks before and a Fellowship of Saints and the Body of Christ and Kingdom of God till they grew mixed If the mixt Congregations by Parishes came in first by Dyonisius Bishop of Rome in the yeare 267. and in England by Honorius Bishop of Canterbury and people were only made Congregations by conveniency of situation and the Law of Civill Policy If Parishes were first the seats of Popery and after the seats of Prelacy and now fall under the Presbytery in the same kind and Notion of a mixed multitude Then mixt and Parochiall Congregations are not that way and order of Christ for Ordinances which was the Primitive way revealed and practised in the Gospell But all this is undeniably true from the best Historians Therefore not mixt Communion and fellowship but pure and unmixt is the only Ordinance of Christ Now I shall leave you for the present and commend particulars unto you and the Kingdom the one A Rule of Evidences for Spirituall Communion drawn from the Scriptures the other A remarkeable passage in the Book of Vindication The Rule of Evidences for Spirituall-Communion MAtth. 15. 26. Chap. 18. 19 20. Joh. 10. 16. Acts 2. 44 46. Chap. 19. 9. Rom. 1. 7. Chap. 16. 17 18. 1 Cor. 1. 1 10. Chap. 5. 4 5 11 13. and 12. 12 13 14 20 25 27 2 Cor. 5. 6 7. Chap. 6. 14 15 16 17. Gal. 5. 9 10 12 13. Chap. 6. 16. Ephes 4. 3 4 25 Chap. 5. 1 2 11 12 21 30. Pâ—il 3. 15 16 17. 1 Thes 3. 6. 2 Thes 3. 14. 1 Tim. 6. 3 4 5. 2 Tim. 3. 5. Tit. 3.
and severall Colours in wars whereby men are gathered into severall Orders Armies and bodies of division one against another one saith I am of Paul and I of Apollo and I of Cephas Is Christ divided 3 Passions and railings forborn Let a spirit of meeknesse run in the arterie of Preaching and Printing Let not passions evill speaking railings which inflame and doe not edefie be heard amongst us the angry stir up strife wherefore let all bitternesse wrath malice with evill speaking be put away from you 4 Reviling each other for infirmities forborn Let there be no rifling into each others infirmities to the advantaging or disadvantaging the cause What is any thing of the man to the thing it self What is ones darknesse to the light he professes Any ones errours to a single truth There is rubbish enough every where if swept from every corner 5 The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause Let not the miscarriages the failings the sins the hypocrisie c. of any that professe a Truth with others be charged upon the Truth he or they professe making such sins to be the sins of opinion not of the Person as one of late who hath charged the unfortunate end of one as a fruit of seperation whereas he might so argue against the very Doctrine of Christ because of one Iudas who did the like to himself 6 Liberty for Printing and speaking Let there be liberty of the Presse for Printing to those that are not allowed Pulpits for Preaching let that light come in at the window which cannot come in at the doore that all may speak and write one way that cannot another let the Waters of the Sanctuary have issue and spring up Vallies as well as Mountains 7 Let all subscribe their names to what they Print Let all that Preach or Print affixe their names that we may know from whom the contrary is a kind of unwarrantable modesty at the best if it be truth they write why doe they not own it if untruth why doe they write Some such must either suppresse themselves for shame or fear and they that dare not own what they doe they suspect the Magistrate or themselves 8 Let all be severally accountable Let all that Teach or Print be accountable yet in a severall way if it be matter of immediate disturbance and trouble to the State let them account for it to the Magistrate under whom we are to live a peaceable and quiet life if matter of Doctrine c. let them be accountable to the Beleevers and Brethren who are offended by conference where there may be mutuall conviction and satisfaction 9 Free Debates and open Conferences Let there be free debates and open conferences and communication for all and of all sorts that will concerning difference in spirituals where doores are not shut there will be no breaking them open so where debates are free there is a way of vent and evacuation the stopping of which hath caused more troubles in the States then any thing for where there is much new wine in old bottles the working will be such as the Parable speaks on still allowing the State to secure all tumults or disturbances 10 Let us call Beleevers though of severall opinions if the Name Brethren cannot be justly allowed Let all who pretend to come out of the Antichristian State be acknowledged as those severall Iewes and Christians who came out of Iudaism and Gentilism in the Apostles times some were more and some lesse zealous of the Law yet all Beleevers some made conscience of the Idoll and sacrifice some not 11 No Beleevers to esteeme too highly of themselves for what they attain to Because we are but yet commings out of Babylon and the fall of Babylon not yet the Smoke yet in the Temple the Angels but powring out the Vials the Angell that enlightens the earth with glory not yet flying through the heavens let not any account of themselves to have attained any thing yet as they ought or to know there is not any Church or Beleevers but if one see more of one truth another may see more of another if one see one thing for a truth another sees another thing for a truth and yet all see short of the fulnesse of truth there is so much want darknesse and so little light or glory in each as is rather matter of humiliation and praise then glorying and exception one against another If any man thinke he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know 1 Cor. 8. 2. 12 No assuming infallibility over each other Let us not being under no further degree of the revelation of Truth and comming out of Babylon assume any power of infallibility to each other so as to force up all to our light or degree of knowing or practising for there lies as much on one side for compulsion as on another respectively to one another for anothers evidence is as darke to me as mine to his and mine to his as his to me till the Lord enlighten us both for discerning alike So as when there is no power in us to make that appeare to another which appeares to us there can be no reasonable equity for any inforcing or compelling in spirituals The first great rent betwixt the Eastern and Western Kingdomes began when the Bishop of Rome would needs excommunicate the East for not beleeving as they beleeved 13 No Civill Power drawn into advantages Let not those Beleevers who have the advantage of the Magistrate strive to make any unwarrantable use of it one against another because Scripture principles are not so cleare for it and because they know not the revolution of Providence and we are to do as we would be done to That very day which should have been a bloudy day to the Iewes was turned into the contrary Esther and the Jewes had power over them 14 Tendernesse in offending each other in things of an outward nature Let there be much tendernesse in not offending each other but pleasing one another to edification Paul would not offend the Idolatrous weak The weakest and most superstitious makes most conscience of outward things and the strong should know that Idoll or Idoll-Temple is nothing Many a one are more offended at Truth by the carriage of another who sometimes reformes with as much superstition as the other offends It is as much below the glory of the Gospell to thinke one place unholy as holy No place can defile now Salomons Temple is not standing yet let all Truth be brought forth peaceably Truth and Peace can offend nothing but that which may be justly offended which is the corruption not the person 15 Severall Opinions from the Gospels first discovery yet all Beleevers Consider the differences and severall Opinions from the first discovery of the Gospell Some beleeved not Christs sufferings and Resurrection as the Disciples whom yet Christ took to
in things immediately divine and spirituall The consciences of men are under a spirituall and immediate Interpreter of the Word even the Spirit of the Lord in all things of spirituall cognizance as every Scripture-truth or Truth in the Word is and this is not only strengthened and cleer from the Word but from a testimony which some when they read may know better then many others By the Clause According to the Word of God we understand so far as we doe or shall in our consciences conceive the same to be according to the Word of God Now each man standing thus ingaged in his owne particular and in his own proper conscience by a Covenant recommended and imposed each is bound to bring forth the evidence of their consciences in particular concerning this to which they are covenanted So as I or you being covenanted against Popery Heresie and according to the Word of God you and I stand bound by our own private consciences to reveale to the State who hath recommended such a Covenant unto us what our consciences interpret according to this Word against Popery or Heresie unlesse there could be one universall or publike infallible Interpreter of the Word of God and Truth who might determine concerning Heresie and the Word of God and whose determinations is as in the formerly inspired Apostolical teachers we may rest So being thus ingaged by Covenant we are at the same time by one and the same Act bound to liberty of conscience in these particulars of the things of God And if there should be any persecution for the pious modest and peaceable liberty so taken and practised whether would it not clearly and undeniably follow that our consciences are not under the Lord Iesus and his Spirit immediatly in the things of God but under the interpretations of men And surely that one Clause according to the Word of God is most providentially inserted for if we be so closely covenanted to the Word of God how tender ought we to be lest in this dark season of our discerning we oppose somthing of the Word and so in ignorance persecute what we covenant to maintaine I wish our Assembly would presse this equally with the Covenant in their Sermons Object But must every one be the Interpreter of the Covenant Answ Nay not every one in every thing The Magistracy in all things of a civill cognizance and in all spirituall things which go out from their meer spirituall condition into a morall offence as injustice or evill transgression into tumult or disturbance of publike or private peace actually and expressely not interpretatively for so the Nations interpreted the Iewes as troublers of the State and the Iewes Christ and his Disciples as movers of sedition The Papists and Prelats interpreted the Nonconformists or reproâ—ched Puritans as factious and tumultuous So as in all things of Morall Civill or Secular cognizance which the Magistrate hath clear rule for to walke by He ought to interpret and proceed by partly because he is the Legislator and so is the best Interpreter and can best resolve us in things of Law and publike liberty and in morals his duty lies out more cleerly but in meerly divine and spirituall interpretations of Truth and Gospell-mystery the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are both the Legislators or Law givers and Interpreters to the conscience Obj. But shall there be no power to compell consciences into Uniformity Answ I shall give light to this by propounding a Case Suppose the severall godly parties or beleevers were equally principled for persecution or non-toleration and were equally numbred and were equally strengthened by parties of Magistracie on their side what would come forth according to such principles I sigh to consider There would be edge against edge authority against authority power against power and all the State or Kingdome involved into bloud and confusion So as we must consider things according to their principles not according to their temporary or occasionall advantages Object But you give not enough to the Magistrate Answ Yea more then any He that gives him that which God hath given him gives more then any that pretend to give him the most The pretenders that bid for the Magistrate at this time are 1. They that put him as an help and government in the Church as some viz. they of the Erastian way 2. They that make use on him but as an help to the Church extrinsecally and by way of forraigne assistance as others viz. they of the Presbyteriall way 3. They that give him power over body goods over all morall and civill behaviours of men Professors and Beleevers of what sort soever of what opinion soever as I and the rest of our Brethren do praying with all manner of supplication that under them we may lead a peaceable godly and quiet life Obj. But why dare you not ingage civill Magistracy in Religion over consciences as some others do Answ Yea in all things morally good and evill God hath ingaged them and hath set the Law and Light of nature and conscience in all people to side with them condemning and excusing what they and their Law doth condemne and excuse and thus to beare witnesse with their dominion and power But in things of pure Gospel-mystery and Evangelically good or evill I dare not ingage them whatever others doe over consciences because I give more to their just power and because I dare not draw them into such principles which hath broken more Magistracy then all the other plots and devices of men For things of Worship which are laid up in the pure simple mystery in the Light of the Spirit not of nature as all meer Gospell-mystery is to ingage the Magistrates Sword into these is rather a way to dash them against every mans conscience and so in time to lay in a fatall power or a fatall suffering We know that power which makes Kingdoms soundest in their Dominion and most lasting is the truest and wholsomest and surely that which ingages them lest into that part of the soule the conscience which can lest endure to be oppressed is the safest and most peaceable To my Reverend learned Freind M. LEY One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster Author of a Book called The Resolution of the New Quere published by Master Saltmarsh SIR I Shall give you a publike account according to your publike charge in your leafe concerning me That I intended to make you my Censor for some Papers which I did not publish Page 1. Sir those Papers were an Answer to Master Fullers last Book and the Question about Reformation betwixt him and me being so out of all Question as Master Herle serveth and â—e as I heard being dead made me rather put up my Arrows into their Quiver then shoot them at such a mark For my contending with you in this I hope it is but as that of Paul and Barnabas and Paul and Peter a contention of Brethren not
in the Church And for our plucking it is not plucking but gathering and calling out Your words are of more violence then the Word will beare that is more properly plucking which is a destructive pulling out a bloudy Separation a plucking of Persecution such a plucking as some contend for and would requite our gathering with plucking and take us all not for a mixture of Tares and Wheat but all for Tares You say we gather out the Wheat it is well you observe that we have Wheat amongst us which some of your Brethren will searce allow us and you very hardly Master Ley's Resolution pag. 29 30 31. His other politike consideration is this Our Parties or dissenting Brethren now together and clasped by Interest c. I answer 1. No clasping in the Camp must loose us to division in the Citie 2. Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politike adviseth to represse factions c. 3. The delay hath occasioned a multiplication of Heresies and Schisms 4. Many disposed to division heighten their spirits to contumacie and contempt To that other of his it is possible while time is given opinions may be sooner at peace I answer 1. Possibility is no pleae against probability nay cleare experience that by the Brethrens amiable carriage they have driven on their designe with a politike activitie and gained more by their adversaries slownesse than the goodnesse of their cause To that of his Fire let alone under wood and so to dye out c. I answer 1. Will fire under drie wood quench it selfe or the setling of a Government be as the Bellows 2. The contrarie is plaine by examples of Anabaptists and other Sectaries in Germany whom Luther at first mediated for with Frederick Duke of Saxony but after he was glad to stir up the Princes and people of Germany for extinguishing a common combustion To that of his c. The contentions of Brethren are like the Bars of a Caestle Prov. 18. 19. I answer 1. This is his seale to his politike Aphorisaâ— But will the bars of a Caestle be taken by letting alone We have not found it so in our wars c. Reply To your first That we must not claspe in the Camp and divide in the city You say well we are to agree or clasp both in Camp and Citie and to divide in neither To your second Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politikes I told you before I dare not allow my selfe the priviledge of an Aphorism of light then when it was rather night than day with me as I told you You know Pauls regenerate part or law of his mind quarrelled with the law of his Members so doth mine so Luther Augustine c. To that of delaying occasioning Heresies Whether may not your setling things thus be as great an Heresie as you complaine against Be sparing You may call these Truths which you now call Heresies Paul preached that Doctrine after which before he destroyed To that of many heightning their spirits into contempt Do not aggravate against your Brethren remember your own professed ingenuity in these words I would not excite Authority to needlesse severitie To that of the Brethrens politike advantage on your slow pace and amicable carriage as you say Give not over your amicablenesse for that their policie is no warrant against your dutie and if they be politike blame them in print For my part I hate to see in any too much of man in the businesse of God but if some of the Brethren be politike what is that to the rest who waite for the Spirit in the simplicity of their own But it may be you mistake the advantages and put their encreasing upon Brethrens policie which is the power of the Gospell You know in Christs time many beleeved on him and the people went after him and yet not policie but his power gathered them To that of your fire and drie wood and that your setling a Government would be no bellows Who are the dry wood you meane and what fire and what by the bellows I fit be this that the setling a Government will quench our contentions yea and it may quench more then it ought even something of the Spirit may be quenched by it Persecution may put out many a Candle of the Lords lighting and many a coale kindled from his Altar But take heed there be not more fire in the bellows then in the wood To that of the Anabaptists and Sectaries quenched by Luthers mediation I dare not beleeve your Historian nor take all against them from the Pen of an enemie He that takes the Parliaments battells from an Oxford Pen shall read nothing but Rebellion rather than Religion And me thinks I observe much here in your observation to the contrary We may rather think that Germany is a field of bloud to this day for shedding the bloud of so many consciences for some points of difference And for Luthers mediation against them Look well and tell me how much the Lutheran there have advanced in the Reformation Have they not rather stood like Joshua's Sun where he left them Let England take warning by Germany To that of the Brethrens contentions which are like bars of a Castle and must not then be let alone you say as in our Wars Yea go on take these offended Brethren these Castles in your military way but then let your Warfare be spirituall your weapons not carnall put on the armour of light c. and take them by a Gospel-siege and we are satisfied But it you take them with the power of the Magistrate with swords and staves as they took Christ if you come in this Gospel-Controversie to to take them as the Parliament takes in their Towns and Cities by force of Arms and compulsive Artillery as your instance seems to imply take heed lest you shed more spirituall bloud to that under the Altar that never ceases to cry How long Lord how long Master Ley's Resolution Page 32. To that he saith We have not yet any experience of our new Clergy Answ How can there bee experience of them if there be no government to try them withall Reply So as you will have an hazard run both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Ministers but sure your Statists will tell you it is not safe trying experiments with State they are too vast bodies for that What thinke you of that Physician that will cast his Patent into a disease to try a cure on him You know the old morall adagie Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hospes One is sooner kept out then cast out Master Ley's Resolution Page 32. To that It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands Answer He need not much feare the government will be so qualified so disposed for the persons that manage it c. Reply These are faire promises It is pitty that government should ever be set up that cannot tell before hand how well it will carry it selfe Oh I
peace doe meet together nay they are so much one as there is even a truth in peace He that was Truth it self could say My Peace I leave with you But What of the contention spoken on of the Fathers and â—â— c. If there be any quarrelling for Truth either by the Fathers or us but in a Gospel-way we are not excusable neither doth Christ speak of truths drawing swords but of swords drawn against truth which is no Argument for you When Peter would draw a sword in the defence of truth Christ bid him put it up So far is he against your way of defending truth You say By whom should Magistrates be set on and that you cannot speak in such disparaging words By whom be set on By the legislative power by the Parliament The Parliament can set on their respective Committees Iustices c. and is this any disparagement I speak of subordinate Magistrates not of the supream You say There will be worke for the Magistrate enough to punish the contumacious c. That is in English the Presbytery will keep the Magistracy doing and now who disparages the Magistrate Who set them on work Who makes them their Deputy-punishers Nay Who is the Satan to whom the excommunicate are delivered It is an expression not much besides your principles and who disparages the Magistrate in that Master Ley's Resolution Page 41 42. To that of Truth being otherwise armed from Heaven I answer We thinke it not meet to divide the subservient means from the supreme power nor the exercise of Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall the sword of God and Gideon To that of the imputation of jealousie c. There is a godly jealousie which would set up as many securities as may be against Heresie and impiety The faulty jealousie is theirs that would stiffle the Government but there is a fear which we professe of Gods anger for connivance and communion with hereticall men c. There is in some an aversenesse to Heresie in a trne zeal and love of God There be many other causes of jealousie but I will take but that one of the Lords and Commons p. 43. If Master Saltmarsh â—ad well considered who were engaged c. he would not have undervalued their piety and prudence to compare them with Papists and Prelates I will conclude with a peece of his own politick advice c. Vpon such principles is Church-Government ordained for his Text out of the Revelation Rev. 18. 1. As he began so he ends with mis-application of Scripture Reply You say you cannot divide Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall That is from the Magistrates This is a signe without further Argument that you do not hold your government for Christs because it cannot be effectuall of it self without help from below and the world and to another power then its own nor is the sword of God and Gideon any faire and just proof for joyning Presbytery and Magistracy it joynes only God and the Magistrates You say Your godly jealousie will set up as many securities as may be But then they are warrantable and Gospel-wayes of security That is no godly jealousie which sets up other wayes as Herod killing all the children to secure his Kingdome David dissembling to escape Iacob to get a blessing there is jealousie but no godly jealousie nor warrantable security So to secure any way though of truth by a power not allowed on in the Gospell as no such compulsive power is in your way is not to be jealous with a godly jealousie though I deny not but some of those may be godly who are so jealous but not in that You say that some fear Gods anger for their communion with Hereticks c. You know all such feare is only warrantable in the Church not in the world It is not so with the Nations now as with the Iews Now if we have not communion with them in the Nation we must goe out of the world But What communion is this you meane that will bring Gods anger You have your liberty to withdraw to separate as they from you If it be nationall or civill communion then you pluck up the tares before the time of harvest But whom you esteem Hereticks they it may be think they have as good Scriptures to esteem you so and this is Heretick for Hereticks interpretation against interpretation And since there is only a sufficiency but no infallibility now as before since there is no Apostles for interpretation as at first for Revelation why do we thus cry out Hereticks Hereticks the Sword the Sword Let me put one Question here Suppose those you call Hereticks were of equall number to you and both of you equally numbred with Magistrates and both of you equally principled for persecution and both equally calling out for the Magistrates Sword What clashing of swords would there be What edge against edge What authority against authority What power against power What bloudy doings What sad workings What confusion would there be This is an Image of your Incorporation of your two powers that you so plead for in this kind If we were equally principled and armed for persecution as you are and acted by your spirit Ah what a Kingdome would here be You say Some have aversenesse to Heresie in a true zeale to God These are but generall notions of Heresie Every thing is not Heresie that is called so And for true zeal to God in that aversenesse all this is granted if that be Heresie indeed But how if it be such a zeal as Paul saith the â—ewes had a zeal but not according to knowledge how if it be such a zeal to God as crucified the Sonne of God and such a zeal there hath been we know The Iews did much in zeal to Truth even against Truth But you close up with that of the Lords and Commons in an Ordinance c. I am afraid these are such proofs as you intend most in your Presbytery to make your supplement to Scripture from Authority and so to make us beleeve what you cannot perswade us to beleeve and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture But I hope that honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture against us then from their Authority But I have not to doe here with answering Ordinances of Parliament I contend not but submit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords sake nor doth my Argument lie against any thing of theirs but yours I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties but Iudges in out difference I appeal to the Parliament as to Caesar nor in it a faire proofe of Truth to draw the Magistrates Sword out of the Scabbard You say You wonder considering who was ingaged I would so undervalue them to compare them with Papists and Prelates I did consider who was ingaged a Parliament c. and had I not highly valued
as these are is this faire dealing with the State You have brought forth before Israel and the Sun many pretended sins and crimes of your Brethren Suppose they should write by your Copy and bring forth the Aslembly-sinnes the crimes of all those of your way of all the Divines and others that you take in and rake back into the ashes of their unregenerate condition keep Almanackes for the yeares and dayes of their faylings watch their haltings in all things they say or doe tell all the Stories of them they heare what would the next generation thinke of their Book and yours At this rate of writing they would not reade one honest man of all their forefathers yet this is your course and method I have done for this time and I hope all that are not inchanted with the Gorgons-head of Hereticks and Schismaticks and Church of England as your owne Smectymnians say will reade and judge I had said more to ye had you printed us more Reason and lesse Reviling and something more then Stories and Winter-tales And for our Licenser whom you so rayle at he is so much a friend to all the world of beleevers as to give them the Scripture-liberty of proving and trying all things and not to silence the Presse as some would and as the Prelates did silence the Pulpit And now let any age weighing all the differences excepting the Blasphemies c. and the nature of them nakedly without aggravations and fallacy of words bring forth a Book printed in such Letters of bloud as this Gangraena bind up all the Oxford Aulicusses the Mountagues the Pocklingtons and see if this Gangraena doe not exceed them all this is Persecution and Prelacy sublimate And for all this I would not have the Civill power drawne against you if we had all the Magistrates on our side but rather that you may in the flowings of a more heavenly spirit with your head of waters and your eyes a fountaine of teares write against your owne Book and let the world see that Men in these times are not infallible as you all conclude but may mistake their Brethren for Enemies some Truths for Errours and Zeale for Persecution as the very Jewes did when they crucified Christ as they thought for Blasphemy And some shall kill ye saith Christ and thinke they doe God good service A Parallel between the Prelacy and the Presbytery Quaere VVHether if we should reply to M. Edwards in his owne words and as Salomon saith answer him according to his c. we not compare things as followeth and trace up their proceedings into the very mystery of Prelacy 1. The Prelates were ordained Ministers by the Bishops Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines that sit now are Ordained by the same power of Bishops to be Ministers and so by that power ordaine others 2. The Prelates when they had made Canons procured the power of the State to impose them upon all the Kingdome Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now get the same power to what they decree and accordingly impose them upon the Kingdome 3. The Prelates composed one great Service-booke for direction to Uniformity of worship according as they had ordered under penalties yet without the least word of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it Quaere Whether may it not be said Divines have composed one great Booke accordingly now for the like Uniformity viz. the Directory to be observed under fines and penalties and yet without the least word or tittle of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it 4. The Prelates ordered that from that Book Prayers should be read to the people Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now have not cast the Prayers of the Spirit into such Formes and Methods that a little invention will make them as stinted currant and legible Formes as before and accordingly read in divers places 5. The Prelates counted all that would not conforme to them Schismaticall and Hereticall Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now count not all so that will not be uniforme with them 6. The Prelates forbad all to Preach and Print that did not Preach and Print for their way of worship and Government Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now would not have all hindred from Pulpit and Presse that will not be of way of Worship and Government with them 7. The Prelates possessed themselves of the States power and favour Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now wholly labour after the same interest both in Parliament and other Councles 8. The Prelates had their Licensers to stop all that write against their power and pompe Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now labour to ingrosse the power of licensing only to themselves 9. The Prelates had for part of their Government Fines Pillories Whips Imprisonment Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now have those very things for part of theirs 10. The Prelates had Parishes for their Churches and Tythes for their maintenance Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now have the same Parishes now for Churches the same Tythes for maintenance 11. The Prelates called all other meetings but their Parish-meetings Conventicles Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now call the Churches and people that meet now together apart from them Conventicles as formerly 12. The Prelates called the Non-conformists factious troublers of the State Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now doe accordingly call any that write or oppose their Presbytery factious and State-troublers 13. The Prelates ever accused their Non-conforming Brethren to the King and Councell Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly accuse their Non-conforming Brethren to the Parliament and other Councels 14. The Prelates had a designe to send all their Non-conformed Brethren to strange Kingdomes as New-England Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now endeavour to send their Non-conforming Brethren to other places out of the Kingdome 15. The Prelates ingrossed all the Preaching and preferring Divines to all places of honour and popularity in the Kingdome to themselves Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now doe accordingly preferre to all places of publike trust honour and imploiment as Universities Navy Armies Garrison-Towns Counties Cities c 16. The Prelates would not suffer men whom they called Lay-men to speake of the Scriptures Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now doe forbid and contemne all Lay-mens gifts in the same manner 17. The Prelates would not suffer any to goe from the Parish-Minister Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly labour to have all keep to their Parishes 18. The Prelates called Truths which they received not New Lights Errours Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly call all things they
flying away to a Book of Mr Gataker one of the Assembly intituled A Mistake c. and the Book of the namelesse Author called The Plea both writ against me And a very short ANSWER in a word to a Book by another namelesse Author called An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh and to Master Edwards his Second Part called Gangrena directed to me Wherein many things of the Spirit are discovered Of Faith and Repentance c. Of the Presbytery And some things are hinted to the undeceiving of people in their present Ministers By John Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell Acts 7. 26. Sirs ye are brethren why do ye wrong one to another LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. Reader IN this Answer to Master Gataker I conceive thou hast a taste of the true Notion both of the sweetnesse and glory of the Gospell Imprimatur May 26. 1646. IOHN BACHILER To the Right Honourable the Lord Maior Aldermen and the Common-Councell of the City of LONDON Right Honourable MAny who call themselves Ministers and Prophets of God accuse us of Heresie and Schism before ye But I hope ye will take notice they are but men as we are and of like passions with us neither Apostles nor Prophets of the first Baptism or gifts of the Spirit Yet if the Priests and Elders or any Oratour as Tertullus accuse Paul to Festus or Agrippa be cannot but answer for himselfe I have but few words to speak to ye Noble Citizens That ye would in that Spirit which is of God judge the Doctrines of Men and single them from Traditions Customes Councels Synods Interests Ye are bid to try the spirits whether they be of God or no. Try whether it be according to God for some Ministers and those not Apostles to call others Hereticks who beleeve not as they beleeve What will become then of the strong and weak Christian of the children fathers and young men Trye whether they ought to preach to ye to suppresse all but themselves since they are not infallible but may erre and where is the Remedy then if they erre Who shall judge the Iudges Try whether this make for unity of spirit to allow no more fellowship nor brotherhood then in Horme and practice And what will they have ye do if Formes should alter For States may change England hath done so Try whether this make for the glory of Christians to persecute or banish as they would have ye all but themselves May they not as well tell ye that God hath made England only for men of the Presbytery or one opinion to live in and worship in And where find they that Trye whether some by their daily Invectives from Presse and Pulpit against Independent's and others bring not in the Popish Designe in another Forme to divide the godly party both Presbyterian and Independent and so to ruine all Try if all such Doctrine as they commonly preach and write to ye resolve not it selfe most into their own interests profits place power And what doth the Scripture and Histories tell ye of that And now I have done praying for ye That ye may be still a free City and not disputed by the miscelany of Logick and Divinity of some into bondage That ye may be still populous and not your streets growing with grasse through any un neighbourly Principle of Persecution which must needs lose ye many and much resort from this famous City under the name of Hereticks not letting such live beside them That ye may be a peaceable City and not raised up and dashed by any breath of men against the other and greater part of your selves the Parliament England hath long enough broken it selfe against its own walls let it now be our strength to sit still and to stand still and see salvation And since the Lord hath let the most of the successe of the Presbytery which is so much desired come thorow the hands of those and that Army whom they have told ye over often were Hereticks let this be but taken notice on by ye what God hath told ye in the successe of that Army and I trust ye will never regard the Messengers by whose hands the Presbytery in a kind came by beating them out of doores Thus rests he Who would rejoyce in your Peace Prosperity and GOSPELL-unity JOHN SALTMARSH REASONS FOR Vnity Peace Love THe Nations and Kingdoms of the world shall bring their glory to Christ and be at peace with all his according to the Prophesies isai 11 6 7 8. Revel 21. 26. Isai 49. 23. And how happy is that Nation or Kingdom which shall be first in this truth and have rather a peace of Prophesie than Policie a peace of God than man How happy shall this Kingdom be to fulfill any of this Prophesie of peace to one another and to the Saints That all Kingdoms and Nations and Princes and People prospered according to their love to Christ and his Pharaoh for Ioseph Ahasuerus for Mordecai Artaxerxes for Nehemiah and the people of the Iews and those Nations have been ever nations of bondage and tyranny to themselves which became so first to the Saints That Ierusalem hath been ever a burdensome stone and a cup of trembling to all that oppressed her and the stone cut out of the Mountaine without hands too mighty for all the Mountaines of the world And the bloud of the Saints where-ever spilled and where ever found in literall or mysticall Babylon never left crying till that very place had bloud given them to drink for in her was found the bloud of the Prophets That the true Peace indeed is more spirituall and comprehensive then men usually think it and takes in severall natures nations people languages of every tongue and kindred so severall spirits consciences judgements opinions not a Peace only of such or such an Opinion not a Peace only of such or such a Society of such or such a Body not a Peace of Presbytery only nor Independency only nor Anabaptisme only but a Peace of All so far as that all or many may be one which is that unity of spirit in the bond of peace That true Peace is an enemy to all selfish interest and selfish preservation and selfish unity or selfish peace because that when Uinity Peace Preservation gathers up from that common interest Peace and Unity to which they are appointed by the law of Creation and Institution and becomes only their own and not anothers their own peace their own unity their own preservation they breaking that law of the Spirit and Communion of their first Creation each perishes in their single private and unwarrantable way of saving themselves And the eye saith unto the hand I have no need of thee and the head to the foot I have no need of you That there is no such impossibility of being one under divers Opinions as we are made beleeve no more then there was for
are not so to him who hath chosen them nor to him in whom they are chosen And this is the mystery why Christ is offered to Sinners or Rogues or whatsoever you call them they are as touching the Election beloved for the Fathers sake I speak of such to whom Christ gives power to receive him and beleeve on him and become the Sons of God and Christ findes them out in their sins and visits them who sit in the region and shadow of death and them that are darknesse he makes light in the Lord. To your fourth That God may be provoked to wrath by his Children I pray Can God be as the Son of man Is there any variablenesse or shadow of change in him Can he love and not love Doth he hate persons or sins Is he said to chastise as Fathers otherwise then in expressions after the manner of men because of the infirmities of our flesh must we conceive so of God as of one another Can he be provoked for sins done away and abolished Hath Christ taken away all the sin of his Hath he borne all upon his body or no Speakes he of anger otherwise then by way of Allusion and Allegory as a Father c. And is that He is a Father after the fashion of men Or speaks he not in the Old Testament according to the Revelation of himselfe then and in the New Testament of himselfe now only because our infirmity and his own manner of appearing which is not yet so but we may beare him in such expressions and yet not so in such expressions but we may see more of him and his love and the glory of Salvation in other expressions and not make up such a love as you commonly do of benevolence and complacence Did David and Peter as you say make up their peace with God by Repentance Is there any that makes peace but one Jesus Christ who makes peace through the bloud of his Crosse Can Repentance make peace Or Obedience make peace Is there any sacrifice for sin but that which was once offered even he that appeared in the end of the world to put away sin by the sacrifice of himselfe And was not this called by the Apostle One sacrifice for sins for ever Repentance Obedience c. may make way for the peace made already for sin that is in such workings of the Spirit the love of God in the face of Iesus Christ may shine upon the Soule more freely and fully and the more the Spirit abounds in the fruits of it the more joy and peace flows into the Soule and the more the Soule looks Christ in the face so as peace with God is not made but more revealed by the Spirit in obedience and love c. To your fifth That God loves us for his own graces in us I thought he had loved us too in himselfe and from that love given Christ for us and yet loved us in Christ â—op Can any thing without God be a cause of Gods love Doth God love as we love one another from complexions or features without or loves he not rather thus God is love and therefore we are made and Redeemed and Sanctified not because we are Sanctified therefore he loves us We love him because he first loved us he loved us because he loved us and not because we love him not because of any Spirituall complexion or feature in us because of his Image upon us that is but an earnest of his love to us that is only given us because he loved us he loves us from his will not from without for though we are like him yet we are not himselfe and he loves us as in Christ and himselfe Whereas you say God is as man and as a Father I hope you meane not as in himselfe but as in his wayes of speaking and appearing to us and if so we are agreed But your taking things more in the Letter then the Spirit makes your Divinity lesse Divine and your conceptions more like things of men then of God This makes the Gospell so legall and carnall when we rise little higher then the bare Letter or Scripture not the inspiration by which it came all Scripture being given by inspiration To your sixth That Faith is not a persâ—â—sion more or lesse of Gods love and that all may have that I pray mistake not Can all beleeve from the Spirit Can all be more or lesse spiritually perswaded Do I speake of any perswasion of Christs love which is not Spirituall Deceive not your selfe nor your Reader nor wrong not your Author or do I speak of Faith abstracted from all Repentance Obedience c why deale ye thus When you say men may beleeve too suddenly because I presse men to beleeve and you instance in Simon Magus Was he blamed for beleeving too suddenly or for mis-beleeving because he beleeved the gifts of the Holy Ghost were to be bought with money Can any beleeve too soon if some mis-beleeve or beleeve falsly what is that to them that truly beleeve Shall the unbeliefe of some make the Faith of God without effect God forbid Can Christ be too soon a Saviour to us Can the Fountaine be too soon opened for sin Can the riches of Christ be too soon brought home Paul counts it an honour to be first in Christ Salute Andronicus and Iunia who were in Christ before me and the Church in Prâ—scilla's house and Epenetus who were the first fruits of Achaiâ— unto Christ To your seventh That Christ bids us repent as well as beleeve yea first repent Yea but will you take the Doctrine of the Gospell from a part or summary of it as you say and not from the Gospell in its fulnesse and glory and Revelation Will ye gather Doctrines of Truth as Ruth for a while did gleanings here one eare of Corne and there another and not rather go to the full sheafe to Truth in the Harvest and Vintage Will you pluck up Truth by pieces and parcels in Repentance and Obedience and Selfe-dentall and not reveale these as Christ may be most glorified and the Saints most Sanctified and these gifts most Spiritualized and improved Will ye Preach Doctrines as they lie in the Letter or in their Analogie and inference of Truth The Papists Preach Christs very flesh and bloud to be in the Wine And why but because they looke but halfe way to the demonstration of Truth in the Spirit they shut up Christ in one Notion and not in another and so loses the Truth by revealing it in that Forme of words which is too narrow for it and too short of the height and depth and length of it You say We are to try our Faith So say I too if you would not pick and choose in my Book to make me some other thing then you find me But you mean we must try our Faith for assurance as your other words imply and so far I say too but you