by the Church representative so that it is evident after the explanation that it is the same Faith still I say every Protestant will acknowledge that this Faith is infallibly true for we believe the Faith delivered by the Apostles to be infallibly true and if it appears that the same Faith is still taught by the Church whether in or out of Council it matters not it must be infallibly true still But yet there is a little difference between us and the Jesuit He believes and would have us believe that the present Faith of the Church of Rome viz. the Doctrine of the Council of Trent is that Faith which was received from the Apostles preserved in all the Members of the Catholick Church and only explained upon occasion by the Council of Trent which was the Church representative this we deny this we know this we can and often have proved to be false And I beseech you what greater infallibility can any Church pretend to than to have the World receive all her Decrees as infallibly true But they do not pretend that either thâ— whole Church or any person or persons in it are held to possess any intrinsick Infallibility which they own to be proper to God alone Thank 'em for nothing they do not believe that the Church or Pope or Council are by nature infallible for all the World would laugh at them if they did We do not say as he adds that they cannot of themselves deceive us but that God according to his Promise directing them by his infallible Spirit it cannot possibly happen that they should deceive us The Modesty of a Jesuit who claims no more Infallibility for the Pope and General Council than the Apostles had and wonders any man should grudge them this since they do not pretend to an intrinsick Infallibility not to be infallible by Nature but only by Grace Thus he adds that they do not preâ—end to new Revelations and Lights nor admit any new Article of Faith though where a doubt arises the Church-hath infallibly power to declare what hath been revealed by Christ to the Apostles and preached by them which perhaps some part of the Church might have had a less clear understanding thereof but this is done not by making any new Article of Faith but more clearly delivering what was ever believed by the Apostles and all Catholicks from their time to this That is to say what ever the Church determines though the Christian Church in former ages knew nothing of it yet it must not be called a new Article of Faith but a declaring what had been revealed by Christ to his Apostles and preached by them though the world had long since forgot it whatever the Church determines to day we must believe to have been the Faith of the Apostolick Age though there are no other evidences nor symptomes of it but because the Church which is infallible says so And this is all the Infallibility the Church pretends too a very small matter to be denied her by Christians it is only to believe whatever she says without disputing or examining her Faith nay to believe that to be the old Faith which the most authentick Records of the Church prove to be new I have thus stept out of my way to see what fine thing he had to say of the Churches Infallibility which he promised a very favourable representation of but it is all the old cant still a little disguised by some ignorant blunders or artificial Non-sense as for his proofs of this Infallibility I am not concerned with them at present and after so many discourses on that Argument they need no answer Another Argument whereby I proved that no man can be disputed into Popery which denies us the use of our own Reason and Judgment in matters of Religion was this Because it is impossible by Reason to prove that men must not use their own Reason and Iudgment in matters of Religion For to dispute is to appeal to Reason and to dispute against the use of Reason in Religion is to appeal to Reason against the use of Reason in Answer to this he tells us That men must use their Reason to come to this knowledge that God hath revealed what they believe Now I would desire no more but this to prove that we must use our Reason in matters of Religion for no man at this day can know what is revealed without it I do assert and let him disprove me when he can that since God has given us reason to judge of the truth or falshood of such things as are knowable by the light of Nature and a standing Rule of Faith and Manners in the writings of the Old and New Testament for matters of Revelation we must believe no Mans or Churches pretences to Infallibility who either teaches any Doctrine which plainly contradicts the light of Reason or a standing revelation and therefore we must judge of mens pretences to the Spirit by the Doctrines they teach and therefore must particularly judge of their Doctrines too This is the fair state of the Controversie between us and here I leave it and let him take it up again when he pleases And here he returns back to the Conference between a sturdy Protestant and a new Convert which belonged to the former head the design of which is to shew the new Convert that by going over to the Church of Rome he has gained no more Infallibility than a Protestant has nay has lost some degrees of certainty which he might have had before for thus the Protestant tells him You rely on your own reason and judgment for the Infallibility of your Church and consequently of all the Doctrines of it and therefore your infallible Faith is as much resolved into your own fallible Iudgment as the Protestant Faith is So that the difference between us is not that your Faith is infallible and ours fallible for they are both alike call it what you will fallible or infallible We have more rational certainty than you have and you have no more infallible certainty than we You think you are reasonably assured your Church is infallible and then you take up your Religion upon trust from your Church without and many times against Sense and Reason according as it happens So that you have only a general assurance of the Infallibity of your Church and that no greater than Protestants pretend to in other cases viz. the certainty of Reason and Argument but have not so much as a rational assurance of the truth of your particular Doctrines that if you are mistaken about the Infallibility of your Church you must be miserably mistaken about every thing else which you have no other evidence for But now we are in general assured that the Scriptures are the Word of God and in particular assured that the Faith which we profess is agreeable to Scripture or expresly contained in it and does not contradict either Sense or Reason nor any
Reason or to Judge for my self It does not make void the use of Common Sense and Reason when it should lead us to submit to any just Authority but to submit to such an unjust Authority makes void the use of Common Sense and Reason because he will not allow us to use our Reason The Iews had no Reason as he pretends to reject St. Paul's Disputation till he had renounced Infallibility because he never urged his own Infallibility as the sole Reason of their Faith and to debar them from a liberty of Judging as the Church of Rome does if he had it had been as vain a thing for the Iews to have Disputed with St. Paul as it is for Protestants to Dispute with Papists His next Exception is against those Words Pres. p. 6. What difference is there betwxit mens using their private Iudgments to turn Papists or to turn Protestants To this he answers The same as betwixt two sick men the one whereof chooses to put himself in an able Doctors hands whom he knows to have an infallible Remedy which none but Mountebanks ever had yet whilst the other chooses his own Simples and makes his own Medicines The case is this I was giving a reason why Papists who have any modesty should not dispute with Protestants because it is an appeal to every man's private judgment if ever they make Converts they must be beholden to every man's private judgment for it for I think men cannot change their opinions without exercising a private judgment about it and I suppose when they dispute with men to make them Papists they intend to convert them by their own private judgments now what difference is there between mens using their private judgments to turn Papists or to turn Protestants one indeed may be false and the other true but private judgment is private judgment still and if it be so great a fault for men to use their private judgments it is as great a fault in a Papist as it is in a Protestant So that all that I said is that there is no difâ—erence with respect to mens using their private judgment whether they use their private judgment to turn Papists or to turn Protestants for both is but private judgment and to confute this he tells us that there is a great difference between turning Papist and turning Protestant which I granted there was but is nothing to the present Argument I say there is no difference as to the principle or cause of their change when the change of both is owing to private judgment and he learnedly proves that the change itself is different as widely different as Papist and Protestant differ But though the Footman had plainly told him this the Jesuite had not wit to understand it and therefore Preservative Consid. p. 11. adds is there no difference then betwixt one who follows his fancy in chusing his way and him who chuses a good guide and follows him because they both chuse do both equally rely on their fancy I grant there is a difference between these two as there is between a Protestant and a Papist but when the dispute is whether they shall follow their own reason and judgment or give up themselves to follow a Guide with a blind and implicite faith and every man must determine this by his own private judgment which is the case I proposed which way so ever they determine this question whether to follow their own reason or to follow a Guide in this point they both equally rely on their own private reason and judgment or as he calls it fancy In the next place he says I take the Catholicks part and tho' faintly yet speak well in so clear a cause The intention of those Disputes is only to lead you to the infallible Church and set you upon a Rock and then it is very natural to renounce your own judgment when you have an infallible Guide This I do alledge as the most plausible pretence to justifie Papists in disputing with Protestants that the end of it is to lead us to an infallible Church That our own judgment must bring us to the infallible Guide but when we have found him we have no farther use for our own judgment I offered two Answers to this neither of which he durst meddle with but nibbles at a Passage in each The 1. he thus represents they cannot with any sense dispute with us about the particular Articles of Faith because the sense given of Scripture and Fathers takes its Authority from the Church understanding it so But my Answer was this That if Disputes be only to lead us to the infallible Church then it puts an end to all the particular Disputes of Religion between us and the Church of Rome We may dispute on about an infallible Iudge but they cannot with any sense dispute with us about the particular Articles of Faith such as Transubstantiation the Sacrifice of the Mass c. for these are to be learnt only from the Church and cannot be proved by Scripture or Fathers without the Authority of the Church Which is a demonstration if Faith must be resolved into the infallible Authority of the Church for then no Arguments are a sufficient foundation for Faith without the Authority of the Church or if they be there is no necessity of resolving our Faith into Church Authority because we have a good foundation for Faith without it He answers This is false The sense of Scripture takes its authority from God who spoke that Word though we are certain that we have the true sense of that Word because we receive it from the Church which is protected and guided in delivering us both the letter and sense by the infallible Spirit of God that is to abide with her for ever according to Christ's promise John 14.16 This is a choice Paragraph The Question between us is Whether they can by Scripture convince a man who does not yet believe the infallible Authority of the Church as we Protestants do not that their Doctrines of Transubstantiation the Sacrifice of the Mass the Worship of Images c. are true Gospel-Doctrines This I say they cannot if they be true to their own Doctrine that we cannot be certain what the true sense of Scripture is without the infallible Authority of the Church of Rome For a man cannot be convinced by Scripture till he be sure what the true sense of Scripture is and if we cannot be sure of this without relying on the Authority of the Church in expounding Scripture then a Protestant who disowns such an Authority can never be sure what the true sense of Scripture is and therefore cannot be convinced by Scripture-Proofs which shews how absurd it is for a Papist who professes to believe all this to attempt to perswade a Protestant who rejects the Authority of their Church of the truth of Popish Doctrines from Scripture either he thinks these Doctrines so plainly contained in
Scripture that a man who rejects the Authority of the Church may be forced to acknowledge that they are in Scripture and then he must reject the necessity of Church-Authority for the understanding of Scripture which is to yield up a very concerning point to Protestants or else he must confess that he does very foolishly or knavishly in urging Scripture-Proofs to a man who rejects the Authority of their Church without which he knows there are no Scripture-Proofs of any Authority But this which was the true state of the Controversie the Jesuite takes no notice of all that he says is this That the sense of Scripture takes its Authority from God that is is ultimately resolved into God's Authority who intended such a sense in it but as to Catholicks for such he must mean their certainty of the sense of Scripture is resolved immediately into the Authority of the Church which is guided in expounding Scripture by an infallible Spirit Now is not this the very same that I saiâ— that all Scripture-Proofs must be resolved into the Authority of the Church and are not good without it as it is impossible they should be if we cannot certainly know what the true sense of Scripture is but from the Exposition of the Church And yet if the Church of Rome be no more infallible in delivering the sense of Scripture than in delivering the letter of it there is no great encouragement to rely on her infallibility as is evident from the many Corruptions of their Vulgar Latine which one Pope corrected after another and yet it is not corrected still that it was a little over-sight in this Jesuite though possibly he knew nothing of the matter to make the Church equally infallible in delivering the letter and the sense of Scripture But to do him right he seems to offer at something of sense in his dispute between Iohn and William which is the right way to a place For says he is John disabled from convincing William of his mistake by reasons because he hath with him a Guide who certainly knows the way and that he himself would certainly pass by those reasons if his Guide assured him that he applied them ill and wrongly to that way This has something of argument in it and therefore shall be considered and I am glad to meet with any thing that deserves to be considered The sum of his Argument which I shall represent fairly for him because he has not shewn it to the best advantage is this That Roman-Catholicks have two ways of finding out the sense of Scripture either by the use of Reason or by the Expositions of an infallible Guide but that Reason must be subordinate to the Guide and if Reason dictates one sense of Scripture and the Church teaches another Reason must submit and a true Catholick must embrace the sense of the Church though it be against his Reason but yet if Reason and his Guide be both of a side and he can prove by Reason that to be the true sense of Scripture which the Church gives of it he may then wave the Authority of the Church when he disputes with those who reject such Authority and argue from the reasons of things and the natural interpretation of Scripture it self As Iohn may convince William who rejects the infallibility of Iohn's Guide which is the true way by plain reason while his reason is not contradicted by his Guide and if our Jesuite can make more of this Argument himself let him I am sure he has spoiled it by repeating it in his Preserv Consider p. 11. John is not disabled of convincing William of his mistake because he receives the reasons he uses from an infallible Guide Where he has set it upon another bottom and a very silly one for his purpose for if the force of his Reasons be resolved into the Authority of an infallible Guide it is all lost to him who disowns the infallibility of the Guide or if he means that Iohn is taught such Reasons by an infallible Guide as are able by their own evidence to convince William without any regard to the infallibility of the Guide we desire no more than to see such Reasons and to be left to judge for our selves but this ends in a Protestant Resolution of Faith for every man to judge for himself according to the evidence of Reason which in it self is neither more nor less evident for being proposed or learnt from a fallible or infallible Guide And yet by what follows he can mean no more but that the Authority of an infallible Judge must over-rule every Man's private Reason for he appeals to the learned Gentlemen of the Temple hoping they will joyn with him maintaining against their Master that all the Iudges of the Land may very reasonably convince by Law an impertinent Party though he should oppose that they may not do it because their interpretation of the Law is to deliver the true sense of it Which is glorious Nonsence that all the Judges of the Land can convince a man who is not convinced but declares still that they have not given the true sense of the Law. In all Civil Causes there must be a final judgment and every private man must submit to the decision of Authority whether his own reason be satisfied or not but it is not so in matters of Religion in which no man at the peril of his Soul must be over-ruled by any Authority till he be first convinced So that the Jesuite had said a good thing by chance but for want of understanding it had lost it again and any man may see that I could as easily have lost it as he had I a mind to it but I will not part with it without an Answer because it is the most plausible thing that can be said and possibly other men may understand it who can't answer it though he don't His Argument then as first proposed is this That they allow of Reason in expounding Scripture so long as they do not contradict the Sense and Exposition of the Church and therefore they may dispute with Hereticks from Scripture without concerning the Authority of the Church in the dispute Now in answer to this there are some material Questions to be asked As 1. Whether they can dispute with Protestants by Scripture-Arguments without allowing them to judge of the sense of Scripture by their own private Reason and whether this be agreeable to the Doctrine of the Church of Rome that every man may judge of the sense of Scripture by his own private Reason 2. Whether the Scripture be so plain and perspicuous especially in the Doctrines in dispute between us and the Church of Rome that every honest impartial Inquirer may find the true sense of them without an infallible Interpreter if they be I think they never ought to talk of the obscurity of Scripture nor the necessity of an infallible Judge more if they be not and if they know that they are