and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this
not She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministery GOD forbid See how he cries out against this Abomination to say that the Ministery can be lost in the Church There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers since to transmit the Ministery after the ordinary manner 't is not requisite for the Ministery to be pure 't is sufficient that it is And thô for the transmitting of it there should be requir'd as Mr. Claude speaks not only Ministers of good Doctrin but also of good Life and good Example 't is as sure that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People as 't is that there will be always true Believers since that all the Ministery as well as the People must be there mixt of Good and Bad till the final Separation at the last Judgment Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESVS CHRISTs Church and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplor'd Cause And to see what an Overthrow to JESVS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces we need only consider the Promises of JESVS CHRIST and see in what it has pleas'd him principally to establish the Strength of his Church She is strong she is invincible because JESUS CHRIST has said Mat. xvi v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her But he did not say that Hell should not prevail against her till after he had said Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church adding presently after I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven 'T is then in the Ministery confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST and using the Authority of the Keys that JESUS CHRIST has principally establisht the Strength of his Church And to whom did he say I am with you even unto the end of the world Matt. xxviii v. 20. but to those to whom he said â—â—ach and baptize All the Church is comprehended in this Promise who knows it not But JESUS CHRIST would shew the Truth of this Doctrin Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST and this is the Church the People united with their Bishop and the Flock joyn'd to their Pastor where 't is clear that we must understand as he says elsewhere Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. Tr. de vnit Ecc. c. this Pastor united with all his Collegues and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy so often establisht in his Writings 'T is then with reason that JESUS CHRIST would shew the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministery and 't is manifestly seen that 't is to those who teach he would say I am always with you And what is here more admirable is that these Promises are so evident that Mr. Claude against the Prepossessions of his Religion was forc't to acknowledg them such as I have now explicated them For we have heard him tell us that 't is in effect of a confessing Church of a Church which publishes the Faith of a Church which uses the Ministery that JESUS CHRIST has pronounc'd that Hell should not prevail against her V. sup xi Ref. p. 99. seq And because JESUS CHRIST after he had said Teach and baptize adds I am with you Mr. Claude concludes as we do that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church that he affirms he will be with her baptize with her and teach with her even unto the end of the world 'T is then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministery which is principally comprehended in this Promise 't is principally in this that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church In the mean time against all this Order we are shewn the Ministery so weak and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST that it falls all together in one moment and on the contrary particular Believers so strong that they alone establish all the Ministery extraordinarily rais'd without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration Who does not then see that all is overturn'd in the new Reformation and that to say with them that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church to depose by their means all the Pastors and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministery by the common ways establisht in his word and always observ'd in his Church is to say that he would set up a Church in a manner contrary to that he has reveal'd and has always caus'd to be follow'd by his Church Or rather 't is to say that he would have this Church form'd after a manner so new amongst Chriâ—â—â—ans bear in its Original without ever being able to efface it the manifest Character of its Falsity But let us come to these true Believers of whom Mr. Claude brags to us I am not contented to dispute with them the Power he has given them to depose all their Pastors and make others I say that these true Believers never were There must notwithstanding according to this Minister have been true Believers even in the Bosom of the Roman Church for since according to his Doctrin there must be acknowledg'd without any Interruption an Ecclesiastical Ministery and an exterior Profession of which might have been said There are the true Believers they were true Believers under that Ministery and in that Profession whence they went forth I ask did they communicate in the Sacrifice where Saints are invocated where their Relicks and Images are honour'd where the Pope is nam'd as the Head of the Orthodox where JESUS CHRIST is ador'd as present in Body and Soul where he is offer'd where the Holy Sacrament is receiv'd under one Kind Not to communicate in this Sacrifice and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there were manifestly to separate and they are suppos'd not to have done that yet but if they communicated there continuing true Believers in what an Error are now all our Reformed who believe not themselves to have been true Believers till since they left communicating there Thus these true Believers are People in the Air 1 Kin. xix v. 18. these seven thousand so much bragg'd of in the new Reformation and by Mr. Claude Man Ans 2 part are so far from appearing that they are not in nature since before the Separation there was not any one who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host which our Reformed look on as Baal before whom one must not bow the Knee They say that these true Believers who by their actual separating compos'd the Reformation were before separated in heart from the publick Idolatry But first this is not sufficient secondly 't is not so This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude since he will have a Church always visible since he has just now defin'd the Church to be the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
of the Church together She seem'd astonisht at this Proposition But I added That there was yet believ'd in her Religion something far more strange which was That there is a Point of Time when a Christian is oblig'd to doubt whether the Scripture was inspir'd by GOD whether the Gospel is a Truth or a Fable whether JESUS CHRIST was a Deceiver or a Teacher of the Truth When she appear'd yet more amaz'd at this Proposition I assur'd her that both this and the other I just before mention'd were necessary Consequences of the Doctrin receiv'd in their Religion concerning the Churches Authority and that I doubted not but I could force Mr. Claude to own ' em I declar'd to her the Reasons of my Assertion and shew'd her at the same time what a Mark of Falsity 't was amongst them to see how on one side they deny'd that we must believe without examining what the Church decided and that on the other they were fain for the establishing of Order to attribute to the Church the Authority they had deny'd her She let me know that she understood this Discourse and that she remembred she had read it in my Book but that thô she saw not any way to answer it she could scarce believe but that 't was answer'd in her Religion The Countess de Roye came to tell her that Mr. Claude who had promis'd to meet me the next day could not do it having receiv'd a Prohibition Mademoiselle de Duras testify'd a very great Discontent at this Proceeding I would have retir'd and left her with her Sister but she requested me to repeat what I had just before represented to her I did it in a few words and answer'd some Objections that were made me The next Morning Mademoiselle de Duras came to my House with a worthy Person of her Religion whom I knew nam'd Mr. Coton She had made use of him to engage Mr. Claude to the Conference and he brought her word that Mr. Claude had accepted it She desir'd me to repeat what I had said the day before I did so and Mr. Coton confess'd he knew not what to answer and that he had a great Passion to hear Mr. Claude upon this Point He and Mademoiselle de Duras made me some Objections concerning the frequent Revolts of the People of Israel who had so often forsaken GOD the Kings and all the People as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick Worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only Servant of GOD till he learnt from GOD himself that he had reserv'd to himself seven thousand men 1 Kin. xix v. 18. which had not bow'd the Knee unto Baal To this I answer'd That for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophecy'd and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Juda that 't was there under the Reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time The thing pass'd for manifest and I observ'd only how little Sincerity there was in the Ministers to produce still this passage after the Cardinal du Perron had given it so decisive an Answer As to what hapned in Juda it self I would yet make the Objection stronger than they had propos'd it by considering the State of GODs People under Ahaz 2 Kin. xvi 2 Chron. xxviij who shut up the Temple caus'd Vrijah the Priest of the Lord to sacrifice to Idols and fill'd all JERVSALEM with Abominations and afterwards under Manasseh 2 Kin. xxi 2 Chron. xxxiij whose Impieties transcended those of Ahaz But to shew that all this made nothing to the question I desir'd 'em only to observe that Isaiah who liv'd during all the Reign of Ahaz for all these Abominations of the King of the Priest Vrijah and almost all the People never separated from the Communion of Juda no more than did the rest of the Prophets who liv'd at the same time and in all the other which shews that there is always a People of GOD from whose Communion 't is never lawful to separate 'T is written also 2 Kin. xxi v. 10. that in the time of Manasseh GOD spake by the Mouth of all his Prophets and threatned this impious and all the People But these Prophets who reprehended and detested the Impieties of this People separated not from the Communion And to see into the bottom of the Matter we must said I consider the Constitution of the ancient People It had this peculiar to it self that it was multiply'd by carnal Generation by which as well the Succession of the People as of the Priesthood was kept up that this People bore in their Flesh the Mark of the Covenant to wit Circumcision which we do not read to have been ever discontinu'd and so thô the Priests and almost all the People should have prevaricated the State of GODs People subsisted always in its exterior form whether they would or no. Nor could there fall out any interruption in the Priesthood which GOD had ty'd to Aaron's Family But 't is not so with the new People whose exterior Form consists in nothing but the Profession of JESUS CHRISTs Doctrine so that if the Confession of the true Faith should be extinct for one only Moment the Church which has no Succession but by the continuance of this Profession would be wholly extinct without any possibility of ever rising again either in its People or Pastors but by a new Mission I added besides that I would not say the true Faith and true Worship of GOD could be wholly abolisht in the People of Israel so that GOD had no more any true Servants on Earth But I find on the contrary first that 't is clear that maugre the Corruption GOD still reserv'd to himself a sufficient Number of Servants who participated not in the Idolatry For if it were so in Israel which was schismatical and separated from GODs People as GOD himself declar'd to Elijah it must with far greater reason have been so in Judah which GOD had reserv'd to himself for the perpetuating his People and Kingdom till the Time of the Messias When therefore it is written that the King and all the People had forsaken GODâ— Law it must not be understood of all the People without exception but of a great Part and perhaps of the greatest Part which the Ministers did not deny Secondly 'T is not to be imagin'd that GODs Servants and the true Faith were preserv'd only in secret but that in all the succession of the ancient People the true Doctrine always shone forth For there was a continual Succession of Prophets who instead of adhering to the Peoples Errors or dissembling them roâ—â— up against them with force and this Succession was so constant that the Holy Ghost fears not to say 2 Chron. xxxvi v. 15. That GOD rose up night and morning
of the Divinity through Atheism since Examination and Doubt is a Spice of it But 't is not so GOD has plac'd his Mark in the World which is the Work of his Hands and by this divine Mark he imprints in Souls before all Doubts the Sentiment of his Divinity In like manner he has plac'd his Mark in his Church the most perfect work of his Wisdom By this Mark the Holy Ghost makes the true Church known to the Children of GOD and this so particular Character which distinguishes her from all other Assemblies gives her so great an Authority that without hesitating we admit before all Opinions not only the Holy Scripture but also all her sound Doctrin Thus are the Children of the true Church instructed those that are educated in a strange Church as soon as they perceive her waver in any part whatever of her Instruction ought to stretch forth their Arms to the Church which has reason never to waver because she has never vary'd nor waver'd and they find they ought to return into it because none should ever have gone out of it The Seventh REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute IT may now be judg'd whether I ought to be perplext about the Promise I made Mademoiselle de Duras to make Mr. Claude acknowledg a Moment in which by the Principles of his Religion a Christian had but an human Faith concerning the Truth of the Scripture How could I be embarrass'd about a thing which Mr. Claude acknowledg'd in the Conference and which he acknowledges still in his Relation thô he has weaken'd both my Proof and his own Confession 'T is true he cannot let go the Word Doubt but I pretended not to make his Tongue form this Syllable the Equivalent is sufficient for me 'T is an Excess great enough to reduce the Christian who is going to read the Holy Scripture to be uncapable of a Divine Faith To content ones self in this Condition with an human Faith is always too evidently to renounce Christianity I have then manifestly what I desir'd from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment And if he says That the Faith he here speaks of excludes Doubt as resembling that which makes us believe there is a City call'd Constantinople or that there was heretofore a King nam'd Alexander the Great thô we know it but by Men This indeed is not enough for a Christian who ought to act by a Divine Faith but 't is still enough to conâ—ound Mr. Claude 〈◊〉 according to this Answer the Church would always have an Authority equal to that which all Mankind as I may say has when they unanimously depose concerning a sensible Fact Thus in what manner soever Mr. Claude explains to us 〈…〉 Faith the Victory of the Truth I asserted will remain secur'd by his Confession Since if he says his human Faith excludes Doubt he supposes in it an infallible Truth and if he say it leaves a Doubt he will in fine have pronounc'd these fatal Syllables he so much shun'd In a Cause so assur'd if I trembled for any thing but the Danger of those into whose Hearts I fear'd that either by reason of my own Weakness or their Prepossession I could not make the Truth sufficiently enter I ill understood the Truth I defended In the mean time because I said in the Recital of the Conference That at Mr. Claude's objecting to me the Greek Church and others I trembled thrô the Apprehension lest an Objection propos'd with â—o much Address and Eloquence might put a Soul in Peril Mr. Claude took this moment to make me appear vanquish'd Here says he it may with Truth be said That Monsr de Condom ' s Mind was seen not to be in its usual State and that the Liberty which is so natural to him sensibly decreas'd I may truly say in my turn That my Trembling whence this Advantage is drawn was interior and that I can scarce believe Mr. Claude could have perceiv'd it had I not my self sincerely related it in my Recital But what matter is it what was either the Effect or Cause of my Fear They shall say if they please That being put to a stand by Mr. Claude's Objection I would cover the Disorder into which I visibly fell by the Trembling I fain I had for the Salvation of a Soul that expected its Instruction from my Assistance I will own it if they please or rather not to ly I will let it pass without Opposition Let me have trembled before Mr. Claude provided that even in Trembling I spake the Truth I spake it They need only see what were my Answers and whether I drew not from Mr. Claude's Mouth the Acknowledgment I pretended After this the more I shall have trembled and the weaker I shall have been the more certain 't will be That 't was the Truth which kept me up The Eighth REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches establisht themselves THere is a Part of the Conference which Mr. Claude passes over in four Words 'T is that where I shew him the horrible State of his Church which set it self up after the Example of all false Churches by separating from all the Christian Churches that were in the World and without finding any Church which thought as she did at the time of her Establishment So that she was not joyn'd by any Continuity either to the time that went before or to any Church which appear'd then in the World This Fact pass'd for evident and how short soever Mr. Claude has been in the Recital of this Part he says enough to shew That in acknowledging this important Fact he has only endeavour'd to cover the Shame of such a Condition by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue I will not repeat what I said on this Subject You have seen it in the Conference and Mr. Claude who relates but one Word of it does not oblige me to any new Exaplanation I shall only say That he gives a very false Idea of this part of the Dispute The Company says he was risen and the Conversation which continu'd yet some time became much more confus'd and we discours'd of divers things I know not why Mr. Claude will have our Conversation to have been confus'd it was not so in any part and 't was less so if it were possible in this than in the rest 'T is true we were risen and Part of the Company was withdrawn but Mr. Claude and I stood firm before each other Mademoisello de Duras seem'd to have redoubled her Attention and after so many Principles declar'd the Dispute became more quick and more concluding than ever If we spake of divers Matters it was not ramblingly and all tended to the same End It may be seen by reading it and if Credit will not be given to me in this behalf when
Claude is oblig'd to acknowledge a Church always visible since the Church which is not visible is no Church and that according to the Definition Vid. Sup. p. 103. he has given us the Church is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life These Faithful then are not a Body in the Any since they make PROFESSION OF THE TRUTH under an Ecclesiastical Ministery always subsisting and that as we have seen there must be without any Interruption an exterior Profession of which it may be said There are the true Believers Thus 't is not sufficient to alledge at random to us conceal'd Believers they are oblig'd to shew us without Interruption first a visible Society of which may be said They are there 't is there they serve GOD in Spirit and Truth 't is there they confess the Gospel Nor will it be enough to shew us these Believers dispers'd they must secondly shew us them gather'd together under the Authority of an Ecclesiastical Ministery with preaching of the Word with the Administration of the Sacraments with the use of the Keys and all the Ecclesiastical Government By consequence they must shew us a Society of Pastors and People whence it follows in the third place that they must be able to name us these Pastors since the Succession of them is manifest To seek all this in the Pretended Reformed Church as it is now separated from the Roman Church that is from that Body of the Church which acknowledges the Roman Church and the Pope for its Head is what Mr. Claude does not so much as dream of 't is enough for him that to the time of the Pretended Reformed's Separation he finds all this in the Roman Church it self The true Believers were there as long as those that compos'd the Pretended Reformation were there when they went forth or were driven forth Vid. Sup. p. 46. they carry'd the Church with them as Mr. Claude said in the Conference This Discourse more like a Raillery than a serious Discourse is nevertheless that which is seriously held in the new Reformation Till the Separation of these new Reformed the Succession of the true Believers that is according to Mr. Claude of the true visible Church Man Ans q. 4. seq was perpetuated in the Roman Church and 't is since their Separation that she ceases to contain them Such is the Succession of the visible Church which Mr. Claude establishes in his Manuscript Answer till the Separation the true Faithful which the Roman Church contain'd after the Separation the Pretended Reformed which came forth of her Bosom But whence came their Pastors Were they also detacht with these pretended Believers from the Body of the Roman Church to perpetuate in the Church thus Reform'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery Ibid. In no wise Mr. Claude does not understand it so The Faithful detacht from the Roman Church all on a sudden depos'd all the Pastors which were before that is to say that before the Catholick Bishops and Priests with the Pope at their Head were the Pastors establisht by JESVS CHRIST for there must be such for the true Believers which they contain'd in their Unity in the Moment that the Reformation appear'd they were all on a sudden depos'd and the Ministery taken out of their Hands But what right had private persons thus all on a sudden and in one moment to dispossess all their Pastors 'T is because they are the true Believers Man Ans q. 4. seq to whom the Ministery appertains of right who might consequently dispose of it take it from some and give it to others Man Ans 4. q. towards the end We must not says Mr. Claude imagine the Succession of Pastors in this ordinary transmission which the Ministers make from one to another and which is call'd the exterior and personal Succession the Question is whether it may not sometimes happen that the Church that is the true Believers shall take her Ministery out of the hand of those who have too visibly abus'd it and give it to others This is the Question in general Cons 8 9 10. as Mr. Claude proposes it and the Application he makes of it in particular is That the Latin Prelates who enjoy'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery in the time of our Fathers and who were assembled in the Council of Trent having made Decisions of Faith incompatible with Salvation and having pronounc'd Anathemaes against these who submitted not to them the Pretended Reformed had Reason to regard these Prelates as Ministers who had stript themselves of the Ministery and to give it to other Persons They should then at least according to these Principles have expected the Decisions of Trent and since before these Decisions so many Churches separated from Rome had already given themselves Pastors the Reformation will have begun by a manifest Usurpation But let us not so much press Mr. Claude and without insisting rigorously on the Council of Trent let us desire him only to mark us some day a little near the Time in which he will permit the true Believers to have continu'd under the Ministery of the Roman Church And in the mean time let us content our selves to observe this new Doctrin that it may happen that all the Pastors of the Church dispossest all on a sudden may become in one moment private men and that without their establishing any other Pastors to succeed them the true Believers in no wise Pastors but private persons separated from every Church actually existing may of their sole Authority confer the Ministery on others establish them ordain them instal them This is what Mr. Claude afterwards farther explicates by these words that these Pastors before alone in Function are of right depriv'd and the Ministery return'd of right to that part of the Society Cons 10. in which are found the true Believers that is to say the Pretended Reformed separated from the Roman Church and from every Church then subsisting in the world What an Authority and Privilege does the Separation give Such is Mr. Claude's Doctrin if I change if I exaggerate if I diminish let him without delay publish his writing to confound me But if this be his Doctrin I conjure our Reformed to consider what Prodigies of Doctrin must be taught to defend their Reformation For first where do they read in what Gospel in what Epistle in what Writing of the Old or New Testament that all the Pastors of the Church should in a moment fall from their Chair and become private persons whom one might and ought freely disobey Has JESVS CHRIST hidden this great Mystery from us and would he not have precaution'd us against this horrible Temptation of his Church But this is not all after he has shewn us in the Scripture this universal Fall of all the Pastors he must also find there this Ministery return'd of right
to the private Persons that were never vested with it And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning Is it that these private Persons become of right Ministers without any Bodies having ordain'd them or that without being Ministers they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church Let them shew me it in the Scripture or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide I find in the Scripture that JESVS CHRIST said to his Apostles As my Father sent me I also send you I find in the Scripture that the Apostles thus send others and consecrate themselves Successors But that all their Successors being on a sudden faln and depriv'd of the right of their Ministery this Ministery should of right return to the Faithful to whom none had ever given it to dispose of at their Pleasure neither has the Scripture said nor following Ages imagin'd 'T is then a Monster the Birth of which was reserv'd for the time of the new Reformation The Ministery say they belongs of right to the Church It does without doubt belong to the Church as the Eyes do to the Body The Ministery is not for it self no more are the Eyes The Ministery is establisht to be the Light of the Church as the Eyes are the Light or as JESVS CHRIST calls them the Torch of the Body Does it follow that when the Body has lost its Eyes it can remake them of it self No without doubt it will have need of the Hand which made them at first and there will never be any thing but a new Creation which can repair the Work that the first Creation had form'd In this manner if the Catholick Church could as they would imagin in the new Reformation lose all on a sudden all its Ministers without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESVS CHRIST JESVS CHRIST must come again on Earth to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers of which the Reformed Church was at first compos'd why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors which were in Office in the Roman Church The Ministery is to be mixt as the People and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith that the State of the Church was interrupted Why were they fain to have recourse to these People extraordinarily rais'd to build anew the Church which was in ruin and desolation 'T is that they were fain to speak not according to what ought to be done in the Order establisht by JESVS CHRIST but according to what was done against all Order 'T is that the new Reformation was made of Pastors who in effect held nothing from the Pastors that were before and therefore they were necessitated even against their Wills to attribute to them thô without proof an extraordinary Vocation But in truth Reason requir'd something else and why then did they not speak according to Reason except it were once again that they were fain to accommodate not what was done to the Rule but the Rule to what was done But will they say if any Church for example the Greek Church shews us the Succession of her Pastors will you hold it for a true Church By no means if I can shew in it Marks of Innovation which it cannot deny as I should do without much trouble if it were in question But with our Reformed the Proof is made since themselves confess the Interruption we charge them with Mr. Claude palliates as well as he can this interrupted State of the Church so punctually acknowledg'd in her Confession of Faith We distinguish After the 4. q. 7. Conseq says he the Church from her State The Church are the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of a real Sanctity under a Ministery which furnishes them with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharg'd as much as the Condition of militant can permit from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings not to be cover'd and as it were bury'd by this Chaff and these Tares whence a thousand Evils come upon her as to have a Ministery free from Errors from false Worships from superstitious Practices a Ministery possess'd by good People who keep at by good ways and serve themselves for good example 'T is this State of the Church which we say was interrupted Why does he load himself with so many Words and because they are pompous not observe that they are vain not to say deceitful and manifestly contrary to the Gospel For can one more clearly impose on People than by exaggerating as is here done this Ministery possest by good people who keep it by good ways and serve themselves for good Example Is it that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministery dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those who are vested with it and that thô they should be as scandalous and perverse as the Scribes and Pharisees we must not still say not with JESVS CHRIST they sit in Moses Chair but what is much more august Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESVS CHRIST and his Apostles Let us leave nevertheless these things and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us This interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd here to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers for let us hear how this Article speaks It has been sometimes necessary and namely in our days in which the State of the Church was interrupted that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew You see Gentlemen this interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation 't is not sufficient that the Ministery is impure it must have ceased When you came Gentlemen had this Ecclesiastical Ministery ceas'd By no means will Mr. Claude answer you for then the Church would have ceas'd since the Church according to him as you just now heard is nothing else but the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTERY which furnishes her with necessary Aliments And he has already told us that the Church is never without the Ministery Wherefore in this place where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity which he imagins in the Ministery before the Reformation The Church adds he ceas'd
of Piety of real Sanctity Where then the Profession is wanting there are neither true Believers nor a true Church But moreover this is visibly not so else when Luther appear'd and Zuinglius innovated their Disciples must have made this Declaration This is what we always believ'd we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith and from the Pope and from Bishops and from the Real Presence and from Confession and from Communion under one Kind and from Relicks and from Images and from Prayer to Saints and from the Merit of Works Where are those who spake in this manner Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them On the contrary are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak as newly retir'd out of the Darkness of the Papacy and does not Luther glory at their head that he was the first who declar'd the Gospel All the Reformed grant it except Zuinglius who disputes this Honor with him He in the mean time acknowledges that he was the sincerest Monk the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists Do not the others use the same Language Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes who not only durst not declare their Faith whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church but after they were gone out of it durst not say they had always held in their heart the same Faith But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation In the Definition that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church he says 'T is the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one If before the Refomation there was no such Church the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was and if there were such a Church where Profession was made of the Truth and which by her Ministery gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds Separation Is it perhaps that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass and teach all the Doctrins which our Reformed have alledg'd for the Cause of their Rupture To think it only would be the greatest of Absurdities But it may be in teaching all these Doctrins they had not yet thought of excommunicating those that oppos'd them Whence then come so many Anathemaes against â—erengarius against the Waldenses and Albigenses against John Wickcliff and John Hus whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors What then had not those who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth that is according to Mr. Claude of the Reformed Doctrin yet found the Invention of making a Schism and was all the World agreed to suffer them But should all this be true the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better since still before it had any Existence there must be acknowledg'd a Ministery where without teaching either that the Sinner is justify'd by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordiâ—ate Prayer which is address'd to Saints or in fine without any of those Articles which distinguish our Reformed from us althô they place their Salvation in them they ceas'd not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary foâ— the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one What has the Reformation wrought if all these things are not necessary Aliments if even the Sacred Cup and consequently the Supper which according to our Pretended Reformed cannot subsist without the Cup is none of these Aliments necessary to the Christians Faith How they have tormented themselves in vain and how unadvisedly they have caus'd so many Troubles and shed so much Blood if these things are not necessary Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduc'd to the Apostles Creed or in general to the Scripture But the Socinian Church remins this Creed and this Scripture so that the Ministery of a Socinian Church would according to this Rule have furnisht the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one What then at last will these necessary Aliments be and if they are furnisht without the Substraction of any one only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture in what Heresy have they been wanting The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself Man Ans 4. q. the more he is intangled For after he has establisht as a Fundamental Truth that GOD always preservos in the Ministery all that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers and bring them to Salvation he says it does not thence follow that the Ministery is exempt from all Error even in its Decisions but that whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience or even concern Salvation the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil and preserve Purity Thus all would be reduc'd to Liberty of Conscience and what Error soever is taught in the Ministery provided they force none to follow their Decisions and suffer all contrary Doctrin good or bad 't is enough to make Mr. Claude say that the Ministery furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one But according to this Pretention there would be no Society whose Ministery should more furnish all necessary Aliments than a Society of Socinians who brag that they will not damn any one If it be said amongst our Reformed that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST 't is also said there that 't was no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries which as they say reign'd every where And if they will in fine imagin that 't is more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions which they call Idolatry besides all the Substractions we have just now shewn there according to the Principles of the Reformed and even before their Reformation it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe that it would be more easy for these true Believers who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrins under a Ministery full of Errors to cut off what is superfluous than to supply what is defective or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing than by adding the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those that diminish as those that add 'T would be better then for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉 and the perpeâ—â—al Visibility of the Church and 〈…〉 't is in fine sufficient all this Visibility being 〈◊〉 that GOD has preserv'd the Holy Scripture where the Faithful whether conceal'd or open
there was a Church before them from which they brake and against which they set up another Church No said he They corrupted it Ha Sir reply'd I What Difficulty is this Never any Hereticks separated but by corrupting some of the Churches Children and separating with them from the Church in which they had all been baptiz'd But in fine tell me Sir Was not the Sect of the Arians and that Church which is nam'd the Arian new If you mean Sir answered he That Arius was the first who spake against the Divinity of the Son of GOD 't is not true Origen before him and Justin Martyr said the same thing Ha Sir said I That a Martyr deny'd the Divinity of GGDs Son is what I shall never believe As to Origen you know that he is alledg'd both for and against it He is an ambiguous and suspected Author But Sir let us leave uncertain Facts And let us endeavour to find one about which both you and I may agree That Sect which after the Condemnation pronounc'd against Arius join'd with this excommunicated Priest and form'd a Church against the Church was it not new He could not but grant it To prove its Newness continu'd I was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles and could not one say to it Church separated from that other Church in which Arius was born and in which he receiv'd Baptism you were neither yesterday nor the day before One might said Mr. Claude May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church which deny'd the Divinity of the Holy Ghost of the Nestorians who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person of the Eutychians that confounded his two Natures and of the Pelagians who deny'd Original Sin and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles When you came into the World you found the Church baptizing Children unto Remission of Sins and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels What then all these Hereticks and all the rest whom you and we know oppugned was believ'd not only from the Apostles time but yesterday and the day before and at the time when these Heresiarchs came and they found the Church in this Belief But answer'd Mr. Claude There are two ways of establishing Error the one open and the other secret and insensible Stay Sir said I to him we ought to propose evident Facts which both Parties agree I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error Ha Sir said he will you say That you shall find praying to Saints and Purgatory in the Apostles times No Sir answer'd I I will say nothing about them for you will not agree it and I will say such things as you may agree Deal in the same manner with me He that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts granted by his Adversary will have a great Argument that the Truth is for him For 't is the Property of Truth to keep it self upon all sides and to condemn Error by Facts which Error it self acknowledges And since you mention Prayer to Saints you are sincere is it not true that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity Thirteen hundred Years Sir answer'd he is not the whole time of the Church I agree it said I to him but in fine my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen St. Basil St. Ambrose St. Hierom St. Chrysostom St. Augustin All these said Mr. Claude are but Men. Let them be Men as much as you please But in fine we have from our Adversaries Confession thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints and Veneration of Relicks for these two things were joyn'd together as you know Mr. Daillé asserts And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead 'T is true said Mr. Claude That this is the antientest Error of the Church Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity said I to him is what Mr. Blondel yields us I say not this to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrin that is not the matter in hand But I say it to shew That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred Years Let us come then to evident Facts on which I may agree For as for you you agree That the Arians Nestorians Pelagians and in one word all Hereticks were establisht as I have said They found not any Church to which they united themselves They erected one which was separated from all the other Churches that then were This is certain Is it not manifest I expected Mr. Claude contradicted it not I thought not my self oblig'd to press him any farther upon a thing evident and already own'd Now said I to him how were the Orthodox Churches establisht When particular Persons and People for Example the Indians were converted found they not a Church already establisht to which they united themselves He acknowledg'd it Did you went I on find one in the whole World to which you join'd your selves Did you embrace the Greek the Armenian or the Ethiopian Church when you forsook the Roman Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches and say to all that Church to all that exterior Society in which you are Minister you were not yesterday But said Mr. Claude here were we not of this Church We went not out we were driven out of it We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent Thus we went forth But we carried the Church with us What Discourse is this Sir said I to him If you had not been driven out would you have staid in it To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you Go forth of Babylon my People Tell me sincerely Would you have staid in the Church if she had not driven ye out No sure Sir said Mr. Claude To what purpose then answer'd I do you say here That you were driven out Because said he it is true And well Sir proceeded I it is true This is common to you be not displeas'd at what I am going to say this is common to you with all Hereticks The Church in which they receiv'd Baptism cast them forth Excommunicated them They would perhaps have willingly stay'd in it to corrupt and seduce but the Church cut them off And as to what you say That you were in this Church which cast you out and that you carry'd the Church with you what Heretick may not say as much 'T was not of Heathens that the Ancient Hereticks compos'd their Churches 't was of Christians bred in the Church You also have not form'd yours by amassing Mahometans I agree it But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Hereticks and they were all able to say as well as you That they were condemn'd by their Adversaries For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges when their Novelty was condemn'd But Sir reply'd Mr.
whether dispers'd or re-united whether always subsisting or sometimes wholly extinct shall clearly find according to his Principles without any need of the Ministery all necessary Aliments For also of what use is a Ministery to them in which Error prevail And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them This is what the 〈◊〉 should say to avoid the Inconveniences into which we cast them But Mr. Claude neither durst nor ever will dare to do it because he would find in it Inconveniences yet more insupportable and more visible 'T is in a word because he sound that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency as I may say of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministery they must at last destroy the Scripture it self In effect Rom. 1. ◠10. he found in the Scripture that the Scripture ought not to be Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republick in Idea but of a People always subsisting which this Scripture calls the Church He has found that this People ought to be always visible on the earth since they ought not only to believe with the Heart but also to confes◠with the Mouth and to use his Terms make Profession of the Christian Truth He has found that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People to be their unchangeable Rule that there should be always Interpreters establisht by GOD the Author of this Scripture as well as the Founder of this People and that so the Ministery destin'd by GOD to this Interpretation was as eternal as the Church it self If he writ these great Words GOD always preserves in the publick Ministery all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation Man Ans 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministery to it self it must fall If then it be certain that GOD will always keep there all that is necessary to Salvation GOD himself must have promis'd it and the Eternity of the Ministery cannot be founded but on this Promise Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words Thou art Peter Matt. xvi v. 18. and the rest 'T is thence he concludes with us that JESUS CHRIST in speaking to a Church that confesses and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers since 't is by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles to a Church joyn'd to an exterior Ministery and using the Power of the Keys has promis'd her that Hell should not prevail against her consequently supported by this Ministery and therefore he affirms that GOD preserves always in the publick Ministery all that is necessary to the Salvation of GODs Children Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. directed to those that baptize and those that teach and concluded by these powerful Words And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World makes Mr. Claude as well as us say that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her Ibid. to baptize with her and to teach with her without interruption even to the end of the World Thus according to this Minister this Promise regards the Church as joyn'd to the Ecclesiastical Ministery which makes him also conclude that JESUS CHRIST promises the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministery but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World In fine Eph. iv Man Ans Ibid. a third Passage to wit that of St. Paul to the Ephefians makes him conclude with us that the Ministery shall last even to the end of the World and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST and bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks GOD then must concern himself with it without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministery After he had thus begun to believe he should have finish◠the Work and given Glory to GOD even to the end Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD when he said that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity to preserve always manger the Efforts of Hell a Church which should confess the Truth and an exterior Ministery which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments necessary to Salvation He ought then to proceed to the end and believe that the same Hand which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministery as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments would hinder it also from prevailing so far as to make any Error have dominion in it and that so much the rather as what he believ'd manifestly comprehends what is left to believe For if he believ'd on the Faith of the Divine Promise that there should be always a Church with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church he ought by the same means to believe that he would teach there all Truth JESVS CHRIST not being come Joh. xvi v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths but to teach them all Truth as himself declares in his Gospel Nor would it be to any purpose to say that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministery only sufficient Aliments which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans For JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin containing nothing but what is profitable Is 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things if we find not in the Ministery JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin entire we shall never find that Degree requir'd by Mr. Claude nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks 'T would be then something to believe that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministery all essential Truths for 't would be to acknowledge in the Church with which JESUS CHRIST teaches a beginning of infallible Authority by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity But to finish the Work and not to believe by halves we must also believe that JESUS CHRIST in teaching teaches all and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock This Ecclesiastical Ministery is of men subject to fall one may doubt after them for this would be to yield to the Temptation and no longer to believe the Promise We must say 't is of men with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be and teach always then manger human weakness and all the Endeavours of Hell Rom. iv v. 18. against hope we believe in hope that we shall find eternally in their common