signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
RomanaÌ„ speculationem suam toti orbi indicere Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world Now by all this here deliuered M. Doctour you may see whether or no Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop as the word is taken in a sober and in the Latter aboue mentioned construction And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate which is so often enforced and vrged though with extreame wilfull or at least ignorant mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours MICHEAS Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest and therfore seeing the tyme of the new Testament is much superiour to the tyme of the Law I do not see but now in theiyme of Grace there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ and consequently the acknowledgmeÌ„t of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe CARD BELLARM. Michaeas you speake according to the Truth and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach who wryte thus thereof The high Priest of the Iewes was typically and in a figure the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth saying That forme of gouerment which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferioâ—r to Moâ—ses is an impious vngodly and vnlawfull gouerment contrary to the Word c. But M. D. proceede on further D. VVHITAKERS Our best Controuersists which as I may terme them aâ— the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers do teach that touching your Sacrament of Confession Innocentius the Third was the first that instituted auricular Confession for necessary Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since so late and fresh yow fee your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is And admitting this yonr Article touching Confession were not so new but for more ancient yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle since we are to call to minde that Haereses nonâ—am Nouitas quam veritas reuincit CARD BELLARM. I graunt willingly that many of your Controuersists among whom I also raÌ„ge yourfelfe are accounted meÌ„ of learning And therefore I rest the more amazed to see yow here perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth obiect this example to vs for Nouelty But I feare your and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours and misstakings for warrantable Truths and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities We finde S. Bernard who liued before Innocentius the third thus to wryte of this point Sed dicis sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri c. But thou saiest it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God because a Preist without him cannot absolue me from my sinnes To Which thy argument not I but S. Iames answereth Confesse your sinnes one to an other But to ascend higher S. Leo. who liued anno 440. describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt thus saith Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church that they should impose penance vpon them that confessed their sinnes that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction might be admitted by Way of reconciliation to the communion of the Sacraments In lyke sort S. Basil S. Leo his ancient discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein and teaching that a Ghostly Father in tymeof CoÌ„fession is an other from himselfe thus writeth Necessariò peccata eis aperiri debeÌ„t c. Our sinns are necessarily see heere the Necessity of Confession to be opened to those to whoÌ„ the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giueÌ„ for indeede we find that all the AncieÌ„ts did follow this course in Penance To be breife Cypryan and Tertullian of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession are charged by your owne Centurists to teach priuate Confession and this euen of thoughts and lesser sinnes and that such Confession was then commanded and thought necessary Thus far of this point Where by the way I must tell you that since protestaÌ„cy had it first source froÌ„ sence and sensuality the lesse wounder it is that Confession of sinnes made to a preist being so vngratfull to mans nature should be so vnpleasing to all protestants and so basely esteemed of for we all know that the water will ascend no higher then is the leuell of its first spring MICHNS I must acknowledg that our AncieÌ„t Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist Galatinus who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings our continual practise therof Adde hereto that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns and offences how could the Priest know what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer except he knew the particular sinne for which it is to be offered Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof seing there is no reasoÌ„ why now in the New Testament it should be wholy abrogated I cannot be induced to think that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation and change different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Your doctrine of Transubstantiatinn was first inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran for before that tyme not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation CARD BELLARM. Good God how poore and needy in proofe are you M. Doctour For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is that if you insist in the word Transubstantiation wee grant that it was first inuented and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence in the councell of Lateran But then this is but a verball litigation of you for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before And still you allow M. Doctour by reseÌ„blance this illation as good and necessary The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis was first inuented in the Councell of Nice to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice Idly and inconsequently concluded Therfore M. Doctour let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe and to omit that S. Augustine sayth vocatur caro quod non capit caro And in another place
words Although thes and such like defenced some part of the truâ—h which we â—ould against you yet leâ—st you should obiect it was but in some one or two points â—passe them ouer with silence Thus D. Fulke who euen vpon this ground pretermâ—â—teth all the said examples and first instanceth in Wicklefe OCHINVS I do find Michaeas some learned Protestants to make mention of Ioannes de rupescissa Guiâ—ieâ—mus de S. Amore Peter Blois and some others for good and found Protestants what is your opinion of them MICHAEAS I grant they are claymed for Protestants but obserue how iniustly And first touching Ioannes de rupe scissa M. Fox thus writeth of him Iohannes de Rupe scissa liued anno 1340. who for rebuking the spiritualty for their great enormityes and neglecting their office was cast in prison Thus M. Fox Thus we see he otherwyse was Catholicke in all points Williâ—lmuâ— de S. Amore is thus charged by Pantaleon the Protestant Gulielmus de S. Amore Monachâ—s ex 〈…〉 osyna in otio 〈…〉 tes non saluaâ—i scribens a Papa Haereticus censetur Guilielmus de S. Amore teaching that Monkes liuing of Almes in idlenes could not be saued is therefore censured by the Pope for an Hereticke Lastly Peter Blois who liued anno 1200. is freed from being a Protestant by Osiander in these words Petrus Blesensis c. principum praelatorum religiosisorum priuatorum peccataÌ„ grauiter arguit non tamen Pontificios errores refutauit Peter Blois did much aggrauate the sinns of Princes Prelates Religious and priuate Men but he no way intermedled with the errours of Popish religion Now Ochinus I refer euen to your selfe how vntruly these former Men may be obtruded vpon vs for Protestants But the proceeding of our Aduersaries in this question of the visibility of their Church is incredible who are not ashamed in their owne defence herein to challenge besydes registred and confessed Hereticks any one that hath impugned the Pope or his Church but in any one point eyther of manners or doctrine And hence it is that they challenge to themselfs for Protestants men whom all the world do know to be Catholicks in all articles of fayth without exception Thus are Willielmus Occam and Gandanensis by M. Fox Iohn Scotus by Osiander vrged for Protestants Thus also is S. Bede claymed by D. Humfrey of whom Osiander thus speaketh Bede was a Papist in all those Articles wherein Protestants do at this day dissent from the Pope Thus is Peter Lombard placed in the Catalogue of the Doctours and restorers of the heauenly doctrine whom notwithstanding M. Fox styleth An archpillar of Papistry Thus also Ioannes Gerson Thomas Aquinas whom all Christendome acknowledgeth to be of the Church of Rome are challenged for Protestants by Illyricus Finally Thus is Erasmus canonized by them for a Protestant and particularly by your selfe M. D. yet we reade that Erasmus thus writeth Christum agnosco Lutherum non agnosco Ecclesiam Romanam agnosco Christ 〈◊〉 acknowledge Luther I do not acknowledge the Church of Rome I acknowledge But D. Field one of this vniuersity ouergoeth all others for he with more then a meretricious and frontles bouldnes auerreth that all Christendome before the dayes of Luther were Protestants for thus he writeth We firmely beleiue that all the Churches of the world wherein our Fathers liued and dyed to haue bene the true Protestant Churches of God c. And that they which taught imbraced and beleiued those damnable errours which the Romanists defend against vs were only a faction An assertion which Impudency it selfâ— would blush to mantayne it being controuled by all historyes whatsoeuer and by the free acknowledgment of all Protestant wryters without exception NEVSERVS This bould asseueration of D. Field I confesse displeaseth me infinitly and it is no small blemish to vs who professe the Gospell and who should bound and measure our speeches with truth at least with some probability of Truth thus to write For who knoweth not that the Masse which contayneth in it selfe diuers doctrines of the Romish Religion was the publike Leyturgy celebrated in all Churches throughout Christendome at Luthres first reuolt from the Pope And I grant that this may giue iust suspition to many to thinke that we make vndue clayme to the auncient Fathers and others aboue instanced being further of in tyme remoted from vs when some of vs blush not to affirme so vntruly of the dayes next before Luther and of the tyme in which himselfe first did rise vp it being yet in the memory of Man But M. Doctour I pray you proceede to higher tymes D. REYNOLDS I acknowledge it is a difficult point to name professours of Protestancy for euery age Though no doubt our Protestant Church as being the true Church enioyed many Professours at all tymes But these examples afore produced may giue great coniecture that at all times since the Apostles there haue bene many faithfull Protestants and an answerable administration of the word Sacraments MICHAEAS Touching your former produced examples your owne secret iudgment no doubt assureth you that as yet we haue not met with one pertinent example in all this discourse But seeing you M. D. do forbeare to instance for former ages yet not discussed contrary to your promised attempt in the beginning I would entreate Ochinus or Neuserus to insist in perticular Instances of Protestancy for euery such age OCHINVS I will speake both for my selfe and Nâ—userus The labour of instancing is peculiar to M. Doctour And therefore we would be loath as being no more able to performe it then he to take it from him and assume it to our selfs MICHAEAS M. Doctour and you two Gentlemen These are but words seruing fruitlesly to rauell out the time allotted for disputation Therefore once more I vrge you all to giue instances for euery age not yet mentioned NEVSERVS What needs this earnest solicitation of you in this point There were no doubt in euery of those Centuryes many Protestants And let that suffice MICHAEAS What Neuserus Generalityes without particulars What Logicke is this And yet you know Logicke is the schollars eye wherewith he discerneth Sophisms and subtill Euasions But the plaine truth is neither any of you or any learned Man whosoeuer is able so much as but to suggest any one man much lesse any one Country professing in the next precedent ages the Protestant fayth And therefore since Necessity is euer pardonable I pardon you all for your flying to these generall answeres though I must confesse they openly discouer the strayts within which you are here enuironed But Learned Men seing we haue waded so far in this discourse we will reflect a little vpon the former examples or Instances And I will here deale liberally with you in yeelding â—or the tyme more then I am bound to doe And as the Maâ—â—ematicians do forge certaine imaginary
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England which was about a thousand yeares since our present Roman Religion was then wholy and publickely practised in Rome that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles that this change should haue beene made not since but before Gregories time and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ I may adde M. Doctour in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein the iudgment of your owne Centurists who in their Index or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century at the Word Gregory set downe with particuler figures ofreferences where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus de CoÌ„fessione de coÌ„iugio de Ecclesia de sanctorum â—nuocatione do Inferno de Libero arbitrio de â—ustificatione de Purgatorio de Paeniâ—entia de satisfactione c. And which is more your sayd CeÌ„turists do further accuse Gregory out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars Chalices Corporals with oblatioÌ„ of sacrifice for the dead with translation of Reltques with Monachisme with Pilgrimages with consecration of Churches with Masse spriâ—kling of holy-water With consecration of the fort of Baptisme of Chrâ—â—sâ—â—e Oyle with celibratio of Masse finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches All which places of the Centurists charging him are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof To these former acknowledgmeÌ„ts we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander your famous Protestant which are these Augustinus Romanos Ritus et consuetudines Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites doctrines practized and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome which as he confesleth Augustine did plant establish in England a poynt so euident that euen your owne selfe M. Doctour auertes that Boniface the third who liued anno 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory and all his successours were Antichrists Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England made by this Gregory and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after thus conclude The Conuersions of so many countries were not pure but corrupt With you herein Dauaeus that remarkable Protestant conspirech who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England Purgatio illa quam Gregorius primus fecit c. fuit iâ—ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta de qua est Apocalips 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity to the worke of Antichrist And thus M Doctour you here may see how the Church of God through an ouer vnkind peruerting and misconsturing her most motherly and charitable endeauours hath reason even to complaine and grieue at those who vaunt themselues for her owne Children so the Vine being vntimely cut weeps out its mishap through out it owne wound Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe M. Doctour other Protestant writers we may infallibly conclude that from this day till we arriue at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory the present Roman Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries consequently seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome as an Innouation and change of the Faith afore professed by the said Church Now it being made euident first that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ and also that for this last thousand yeares the present RomaÌ„ Catholicke Faith hath not at any time thereof bin first brought into the world but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome It now followeth that we take into our consideratioÌ„ the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred and forty from Christ and these last thousand yeares from vs. Which number seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares some more from Christ to vs amounteth to about one hundred and sixty yeares Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome within the compasse of this 160. yeares then followeth it vnauoidably that the Church of Rome neuer to this day hath suffered any alteration in Fayth and Religion since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares I prooue seuerall waies yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth like as diuers lesser numbers though counted after different waies make vp but one and the same great number And first this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine which was beleeued and generally taught at such tyme as Constantine who was our first Christian Emperour was conuerted to Christianity which was about the yeare 320. after Christ and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares That the Faith in his time was the same that the Church of Rome professeth at this present appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists who most elaborately punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies now vsed in the Church of Rome And the said Centurists are so exact and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine and of the Catholicke Rites and Ceremo ies obserued in his time as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point to wit from Column 452. to Column 497. or thereabout Now that not only Constantine himselfe but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church is in like sort abundantly confessed registred by the said Centurists they spending most of the leaues of the said Century in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines and the doctours of that age beleeuing teaching them and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point I remit you M. Doctour to the â—â—ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century touching which particuler subiect I am so confident that I dare auouche that by the industry of the said Centurists the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully articulatly according to my former speaches registred as the perfect memory thereof as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes is able to turne the syth of time so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories so long as they shal be extant the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times But M. Doctour for the greater euidency of this point I pray you tell me whether it is your iudgment that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age but especially those who
and temporary respects of riches and preferments are so potent and forcible with them as that they câ—nnot or at least they will not be induced to follow the Dictamen and resolution of their owne Iudgments If the subiect of your discourse be about the abstruse Misteries of the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist or of some other such sublime points you shall hardly draw them to relinquish naturall reason so deepely are they immersed therein it being indeed their Pillar of Non plus vltra Thus where other Christians enioy two eyes the one of Faith the other of Nature These Polyphemi shutting that of Faith do looke vpon the Articles of Religion only with this of Nature Choose rather to dispute touching matter of fact with in which may be included the proofe of the truth or falshood of the Protestant Religion then touching any dogmaticall point of faith and doctrine as receiuing it proofe from the scripture This I speake not but that the scripture makes most clearly for the Catholicks and against the Protestants But because your aduersary in dispute will euer cauill at your exposition of Scripture reducing it in the end against all antiquity of Fathers and tradition of the Church to the interpretation of his owne priuate and reuealing spirit and so your labour would prooue commonly to be lost thereby Now in matter of fact your Aduersary is forced to stand to the authorities deduced froÌ„ Ecclesiasticall Histories and other such humane proofes and therfore he must either shape a pro bable if not a sufficient answere to them which he neuer can do they wholy making against him euen by his owne learned brethrens Confessions or els he must rest silent And this is the reason why the Protestants are so loath to dispute of the Church since this Question comprehendeth in it selfe diuers points of fact as of it continuall Visibility Antiquity Succession Ordination and Mission of Pastours c. All which QuestioÌ„s receiue their proofes from particuler Instances warranted by shewing the particular times persons and other circumstances concerning matter of fact An other reason of this your choyse of your subiect of dispute may be in that few Men and those only schollers can truly censure of the exposition of scripture whereas almost euery illiterate man enioying but a reasonable capacity is able sufficiently to iudge of the testimonies produced to prooue or disprooue matter of fact And here I would wish you that in your dispute you labour to haue some Catholicks present for where all the Auditory are Protestants certaine it is that they will voice it against you howsoeuer the disputatioÌ„ may otherwise go But because these obseruatioÌ„s are ouer generall I will giue you here some more particuler since most of them may be restrained to certain particular passages which may occurre betweene you and your disputant Aduersary 1. First then let the true state of the Question discussed of be set downe and acknowledged on both sides in regard of the often willfully mistaken doctrine of the Catholicks That done reduce the question disputed of to as few branches as you can since multiplicity of Points is more subiect to confusion and forgetfulnes and giueth greater liberty to extrauagant digressions And will your Aduersary to auoid all such speaches but what are pertinent to the point handled And if he will needs wander in his discourses then you may reduce the force of them by way of Enthimem or syllogisme to the point disputed of that so both your Aduersary and the Auditory may see how roueingly these his speaches were vsed and how lowsely they and the question then handled do hang together 2. If your Aduersary vndertake the part of the Answerer suffer not him to oppose though he labour to do so to free himselfe from answering when he shall see himselfe plunged In like sort if he vndergo the part of the Opponent tye him precisely euer to oppose which Scene perhaps he being brought to a Non plus would sleyly transferre vpon you And thus be sure that eich of you keepe your chosen station 3. If your disputant will vaunt that he will prooue all by scripture onely as most of them giue it out they will then force him to draw all his premisses I meane both his Propositions if so they should be reduced to a forme of argument from the scripture alone of which Methode within two or three arguments he is most certaine to faile And if he take either of his Propositions from humane authority or from Naturall Reason you may tell him he leaueth his vndertaken Taske to wit to prooue from Scripture alone and consequently you may deny the force of his argument though otherwise logicall if it were reduced to forme 4. In your proofs drawne from Scripture labour to be much practised in the Protestants Translations of it of which infinite places make for the Catholicks Cause euen as the Scripture is translated by the Protestants This course farre gauleth them more then if you insisted in the Catholicke traÌ„slation 5. If you dispute with any by writing or enterchange of letters this being but a mute Aduocate of the minde write nothing but matter and with as much compendiousnes as the subiect will beare without any verball excursions or digressions since this proceeding will force your Aduersary to reply if he will reply at all to the matter For otherwise leauing the point which is cheifly to be handled he will shape a reply to other lesse necessary stuffe deliuered by you and then his Reply must passe abroad by the help of many partiall tongues for a full answere to your whole discourse 6. In like sort if you attempt to charge a Protestant Authour with lyes or Corruptions in their writings with which many of their bookes are euen loaded rather insist in a few and those manifest and vnanswereable then in a greater number seeing if your Aduersary can make show to salue but three or foure of a greater number which the more easily he may do by how much the number of the instanced falsifications is greater the supposed answereing of theÌ„ chosen picked out by him must seeme to disgrace all the rest vrged by you 7. If you intend to bring and obiect any wicked and vnwarrantable sayings especially out of Luther either against the Blessed Trinity or about his acknowledged lust sensuality be carefull to note the Editions of the Booke wherein such his sayings are to be found For in the later Editions of his workes many such sentences are for very shame left out and vnprinted And hereupon there are diuers Protestants who vtterly deny that euer any such words were written by him 8. Be skilfull in discouering though not in practising Sophistry that so you may the better loose and vntie eâ—â—e Protestants knots of deceipte diuers of them being most expert in all kinds of Paralogisme And particulerly takeheede of that grosse and vulger sleight vnworthy a schollar drawne from the particuler to the
Vniuersall much practised by our Aduersaries For according hereto if they can finde any Father or any moderne Catholicke Authour to mantaine though therein contradicted by other Fathers and Catholicks but one or two Points of Protestancy they blush not to auerre that the said Father or Catholicke writer are entire Protestants in all points 9. If your Aduersary should produce some supposed disagreements in doctrine among Catholicks you may reply that their differences rest only in some Circumstances of a Catholicke Conclusion and not in the Conclusion it selfe And if he produce any presumed Catholicke denying the Conclusion it selfe of the doctrine then are you to tell him that such a man ceaseth by this his deniall vnlesse ignorance or inconsideration excuse to be a member of the Catholicke Church therefore this his deniall doth not preiudice the Catholicke Faith this being contrary to the Protestants proceeding who wittingly mantaining contrary conclusions of Faith do remaine neuerthelesse by the iudgments of many of them good brethren and true Professours of the Ghosple 10. If your Aduersary contest that all the writinges and memory of Protestants in former ages were extinguished by the Popes of the said and after succeeding ages you may show how absurd this assertion is And the reason hereof is in that the Popes of those times could not presage that Protestancy should on these our times sway more then any other Heresies condemned in their very times which other Heresies remaine yet registred euen to this day by the acknowledgment of of the Protestants And therefore by the same reason Protestancy supposing it to be professed in those former times should also haue remained recorded either in the writings of the Protestants themselues if euer any such were or else by the censure and condemnation of them by the Popes of those daies 11. Whereas you may alleadge diuers acknowledged Heresies both in the iudgment of Protestant and Catholicke out of the bookes concerning diuers persons who beleeued some few points of Protestancy recorded in the said bookes here I speake of VValdo VVicliff c. Now if here your Aduersary disputant doth auouch as many Protestants do that these Heresies were falsly obtruded vpon the then said Protestants by their Enemies you may here reply that to affirme this is against the force of all reason For seeing the said bookes do indifferently make mention both of the Protestant Opinions and of the other Heresies defended by the same men either the said Bookes are to be beleeued in both or to be reiected in both If the first then it is certaine that those men beleeued those acknowledged Heresies and then they can not be instanced for perfect Protestants If the later then the said Bookes are not of any sufficient authority to prooue that there were any Protestants in those ages 12. There is great disparity betweene Protestants confessing some points which do aduantage the Catholicke faith as for examples that the Primitiue Fathers were Papists in all cheife Articles of Papistry as the Aduersary vse to tearme it and other Protestants impugning the said Confessions Seeing the first men speake against themselues and their Cause which they being learned would neuer do but as conuinced with the euidency of the truth therein whereas these other do deny the Confessions of their owne Brethren in behalfe of their owne Religion and so such their denialls are to be reputed more partiall In like sort there is great difference to be made betweene Protestants speaking against themselues and yet beleeuing the Protestant doctrine and conclusion touching some Circumstances whereof their said Confessions are and betweene some others who afore were Catholickes and after do defend some one point or other of Protestancy Since these later men do not speake against themselues but in defence of such their Protestant doctrine then newly entertained by them and consequently in defence of their owne opinions and therefore such their authorities are not to ballance equally with the Confessions of the former Protestants 13. If your Aduersary doth produce any authorities either from the Popes Decrees or from Generall Councels by the which the Antiquity of some Catholicke Article may be impugned Be carefull 1. That particular Councels or Councels Scismaticall not warranted by the Popes authority be not obtruded vpon you for true Generall Councells 2. That the point vrged out of the Councell doth concerne Doctrine of faith and not matter of fact touching which later point it is granted a Councell may alter it Decrees vpon better and later informations 3. That the Canon or Decree poduced out of the Councell do immediately concerne the doctrine it selfe of some Article of faith then supposed to be brought in and not the name only to be imposed vpon the said doctrine afore beleeued as it happened in the Councell of Lateran touching the word Transubstantiation 4. That the Decree of the Pope or Councell deliuered only touching the better execution of some Catholicke point afore partly neglected as for example touching Confession the vnmarried life of the Cleargy or keeping set times of fasting and the like be not fraudulently extended by your Aduersary to the first institution of the said doctrine he so suggesting a more reformed execution or practise of the Catholicke doctrine for the first institution of it 14. If your Aduersary produce the ancient Fathers in defence of Protestancy first aske him if he will inappealeably stand to their iudgments If he will then vrge the Protestants whose bookes are most plentifull in such like accusations charging them as Patrons of Papistry If he will not stand to their authority then demand to what end he doth alleadg them And further let him know that it is the ioynt consent of Fathers without contradiction of other Orthodoxall Fathers which the Catholicks do admit Where some Protestants obiect that diuers points of the Cathoclike Religion were condemned in some Hereticks by the Orthodoxall Fathers of the Primitiue Church you may truely reply hereto that the Article or conclusion it selfe of any Catholick point was not condemned by them but only some absurd and wicked Circumstance annexed by the said Hereticks to the Article was condemned by the Fathers Thus the Catholicks are charged by D. Fulke and others to borrow the praying to Saints and Angels from certaine old Heretickes condemned by Epiphanius for this doctrine Whereas those Heretickes praied both to good bad Angels to those who were falsly tearmed Angels accoūpting them as Patrons of their wickednes And for these Circumstances only Epiphanius registreth thē for Hereticks This sleight is much practised by diuers Protestāts in certaine points of the Catholicke Religion Therefore be sure to see the words of the Fathers so condemning them in the Fathers owne bookes which if you do you shall discouer wonderfull forgery and deprauation of the said Fathers writings vsed by the Protestants 16. If it be vrged that the deniall of Free-will for example and so of other Articles of Protestancy was taught
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
ouerflowing of many dreadfull and blasphemous doctrines then broached and defended by him But here I referre two points to the mature Consideration of you M. Doctour and these two learned men here present First whether Luther can truely be challenged at this day for a perfect Protestant and consequently whether the Visibility of the Protestant Church can be truely iustifyed in him considering both the seuerall Catholicke Doctrines as also the many explorat Heresyes and blasphemyes he maintayned euen after his reuolt from the Papacy The second though but incidentall at this present whether it sorteth to the sweete proceeding of God to vse as his Instrument for the reedifying of his Church admitting it afore ruined a man who practized his penne and this after his supposed calling to the wronging of Christian Faith and Charity to the fortifying of the state and Empyre of Christs greatest Enemy to the expunging of Gods sacred Writ and conuitiating of his greatest Seruants to the disauthorizing of all Christian Princes and Ciuill Magistrates to the dishonoring and debasing of the Sacraments to the disualewing of the infinit worth and price of Christ his Passion to the vphoulding and maintayning of a stoicall and fatall Necessity in all things And lastly to the absolute deniall of the most Blessed and holy Trinity Now Gentlemen all if you want a ProtestaÌ„t to be the square and rule of Protestancy I am content in this your penury that you take Luther for a Protestant OCHINVS I am amazed to here of these Points and I would not beleiue them but that Luthers owne wrytings are yet extant ready to charge him with them NEVSERVS I condemne my selfe Michaeas of my former rash and vnexamined assent giuen in behalfe of Luther and I blame my owne hasty Credulity But by this I may learne that the attendant of Wisdome is slowe beliefe But M. Doctour we would wish you to ascend to higher times D. REYNOLDS I will And I will ascend sofely and by small degrees Only afore in part of excuse though not in defence of Luthers errours I must put you in minde Michaeas that the purest gold Oare is mixt with some dresse the fayrest rose beset with sharpe pricks and diuers auncient and reuerend Fathers had their ouersights But to proceede higher what say you Michaeas of the twenty yeares first before Luther Do you not thinke that there were then many markably and visibly knowne who professed the present Protestant faith and Religion MICHAEAS M. Doctour If you can euict to much then you are to name those many Professours if not many some few at least some one or other If you can I now vrge you to it But it seemeth by your silence being thus prouoked you cannot name any one Protestant then liuing so rare in those dayes though so late were the byrds of such an Aëry D. REYNOLDS Do you not know that Bucer Melancthon and Pelican were professed Protestants euen before Luthers breaking with the Church of Rome MICHAEAS Indeede D. Morton in extreme penury and for maine releife of his Cause is not abashed to nam the said three men for Protestants before Luthers reuolt from the Pope Whereas it is certaine that all these were originally Catholicks only vpon Luthers fale did after adioyn themselues to him I here further tell you that it is repugnant to Common sense that any Protestants or any administration of the word and Sacraments should be within the twenty yeares next afore Luthers Apostasy for I can tearme it no better and yet no memory to be extant thereof in any one Country or other throughout all Christendome especially seeing all Occurrents thereabouts if there were any should haue bene performed in the memory of Man and consequently lesse subiect to forgetfulnesse Againe you pretend you can exemplify in Protestants for all former auncient times and yet you faile euen in this last age Belike you will perswade vs that our knowledg of these matters is like to some bad eyes which see things a farre of better then neerer at hand Furthermore I here aske the reason that if any such examples of protestancy had bene immediatly before Luthers reuolt why at least did not Luther Zwinglius and the rest that adioyned themselues to him make mention of some such Protestants D. REYNOLDS The Protestant Church doubtlesly was in those dayes but it was in solitude And herein I ioyne in iudgment with D. Whitakers thus censuring of this point Ante Lutheri tempora latebat Ecclesia in solitudine Before the times of Luther the Church lay hid in the desert MICHAEAS I grant the Doctour answereth so but why doth not he being much prouoked by his Aduersary thereto alleadg as much as one Man who was a Protestant before Luthers chang Againe I demande why did those supposed Protestants immediatly before Luthers dayes lye so hid and vnknowne at Luthers resing If you say for feare of Persecution for no other pretext you can alledge I reply that feare of Persecution could not be pretended to be a let after Luthers open reuolt but that the Protestants if any such were might securely then haue stept out and publikely haue ioyned themselfs with Luther Considering that then diuers magistrats and common-wealths had openly vndertaken the patronage of Luthers doctrine and Religion And who obserueth not that the floud of any doctrine in faith is more or lesse as it is gouerned with the ful or wayne of secular Authority But to vrge a more irrefragable proofe for this matter This point to wit that not any one Protestant was to be found through the whole World immediatly before the dayes of Luther is so cleare and vndeniable as that we find the same granted by a whole volley of Confessions proceeding from the Protestants owne penns For thus for example D. Iewel acknowledgeth The truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Zwinglius first came vnto the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel And vpon this ground it is that Bucer stileth Luther The first Apostle to vs of the reformed doctrine Yea Conradus Slussenberg the Lutheran thus vehemently contesteth this point saying It is impudency to affirme that many learned Men in Germany before Luther did hould the doctrine of the Gospel With whom in like manner conspireth Benedictus Morgenternensis thus writing It is ridiculous to say that any before the tyme of Luther had the purity of the Gospel Thus these Protestants from whose authorityes being thus fully recited I gather M. D. this Resultancy That Luthers reuolt was so farre from prouing the contemning of the Visibility of the Protestant Church or the administration of the word and Sacraments as that it proueth a manifest interruption or rather a nullity thereof It being so fully confessed that at the first appearance of this Misâ—reant of Saxony I meane of Luther who first poizned the Duchy of Saxony with his doctrine there was not any one Protestant much lesse
to your L. graue iudgment heerein and do willingly recalle my former mistaking in alledging the priuiledge of a stranger Yet I hope I rest excusable since not knowing but that it might stand in force I had no reason by not insisting vpon it at the first to be vniust to myne owne Innocency or to be slow in myne owne defence Now my L. to come to the obiected Offences Where first I must say that though an extraordinary Loue of Iustice doth sometymes cause Iniustice in the louer Yet no such effects do I feare in your L. since you are one who will impartially censure of Mens Actions as they are in themselfs and not as they are tragically amplified by the tongue of malice Touching then my accusations I must put your Lordship in minde that my Aduersaryes Serpentine not Prudence according to our Sauiours words but Subtilty hath in accusing of me so affectedly mingled together Truths with falshoods as that I can neither with one breath absolutely acknowledge all nor absolutly deny all Yf I say I haue not persuaded some Schollars of the Vniuersity to the Catholicke Roman Religion I do lye And if I do confesse that I haue diuulged to them any Positions of our Religion as supposed to contayne the seeds of disobedience and disloyalty to their Prince besides the vntruth thereof I should be false to myselfe and wrongfully become my owne Accuser Therefore to seuer and â—ane theese two different poynts one from the other know you most worthy Iudge that I do freely grant that during my stay in this your celebrious Vniuersity I haue moued diuers of the students to embrace our Catholicke and only true ReligioÌ„ And if it be theÌ„ an offence to persuade a Man to saue his soule I do heere acknowledge my selfe to be an offendour in this Kynd and shall receaue with comfort any imposed punishmeÌ„ts for the same But if it had been far better for one to haue lyed in euerlasting Informitye and Abis of Nothing then to enioye a Being and after to haue that Being for want of a true fayth and Religion in his Creatour to be punished with eternity of paynes I hope then we lyue not in those Canicular and vnluckly tymes but that the perswading by fayre and sweete meanes to the true fayth and religion shal be houlden if not as worthy of Commendacion yet at lest as exempt from blame and dislyke and the rather since Men are not to be forced by lawes to an erroneous fayth only for statesake Religionis non est cogere religionem quae spontè suscipi debeat non vi Touching the second poynt wherewith my aduersary too myld a word my Enemy chargeth me at this present that is that I should lye secret in the Vniuersity and labour by all meanes possible to plant in the Schollars iudgments such Theorems of doctryne as might breede disloyalty in their mynds It is a most false and calumnious imputation myselfe being therein as innocent as Innocency itselfe I know well that as on the one side nothing is more delicate then is the sense and feeling of an Estate so on the other I am assured that our Catholicke ReligioÌ„ is so far from approuing disloyalty as any Profession or Religion can be For it teacheth with the chiefe Apostle that we ought to be subiect to the King as excelling It surther instructed vs with the Apostle of the Gentills That we are to be subiect to higher powers seing there is no power but of God that Who resisteth the power resisteth the Ordinance of God and they that resist purchase to themselfs damnation Finally that we ought to be subiect euen of necessity and for conscience sake since such a Power beareth not his sword without cause Now our Religion teaching all this why should this Plantife out of his owne speculatiue and suspicious conceaâ—e like to a superfluous Comment which ascrybeth more to the Text then euer the Authour meaned soyle my innocent and cleere intentions with the aspersion of such a foule demeanour Therefore my L. since this is only storme which at this present cheifly showereth vpon my disgrace I hope that the radiant beames of Iustice through your L. meanes will be of force to discipate and dissolue it VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord these are the accustomed common places of mouths exhaling forth disloyalty I meane to plead innocency though neuer so faulty and to stuffe their excuse with tragicall phrases apt to stir vp a vulgar pitty But if this Man my L. who hath contaminated himselfe with so many foule breaches of Ciuill Hospitality which all men in all Nations most ceremoniously obserue may passe vnchastized then let vice expect to be rewarded and vertue punished But why do I labour so painfully to take the height of this his wicked action since it is a kind of errour ouer precisely to insist in proofe of most euident Truths as if doubt were here to be made either of your L. iudgment herein or of your Iustice the one being sufficiently warranted vnto vs by your long experience in this kind the other by your many examples of like Nature But to turne my words particularly to you Michaeas I pray you why must your stay in our Vniuersity be kept so close and secret after you gaue it out you would instantly depart Belike you thought the more retyredly you liued from the eye of vs all the greater conceate would be had of your presumed Worth and so your followers might keepe you as a treasure reserued to themselues you imitating herein Diogenes who became the more eminent in regard of his affected obscurity MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour do not thus betrample vpon old age and calamity neither lay a further weight of digrace by your forgeryes vpon him whom misery and yeares haue almost prostrated euen with the earth Neither seeke to enlarge my faults with your more greiuous fault And where you inuest my priuat retyringe in your Vniuersity with a veyle of a desired emminency I must replye that I am as far from all such elation and pryde of mynd as your selfe is from all charitable censuring of me For I do acknowledge my selfe to be a meane and deâ—ected Old Man and do ascrybe all glory height and honour to hym who is celsitudo humilium And who being only supreme doth most delight in those who are the lowest And this deseruedly since we find by experience that who are most poore in Spirit are commonly most rich in the guyfts of the Spirit L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE M. Vicech I would haue you to descend to the particular doctrines of disloyalty broached by Michaeas in your Vniuersity for as yet both your words haue bene spent only in discoursing and äery generalityes And they are particulars only of which the law taketh hould for since the punishment prescrybed by the Law is particular it followeth that the offence must also be particular Therefore show in such and such a poynt with
Word and vse of the Sacraments as Notes And thus they reiecting all former Catholicke Notes do reduce as aboue is said the determining of which is the true Church to the inappealable and last Resort of their owne priuate opinions passed vpon the true preaching of the Word and the due administration of the Sacraments But now to come to the Question it selfe touching these Protestant Notes Where the â—eader for the more cleare setting downe of the state of the Question and his owne better instruction is to conceaue first that these Protestant Notes supposing them to be Notes of the Church prooue only the place where the Church is but not which is the Church Which here is only the Question Secondly the Reader is to call to mind that whereas a Note may be of two sorts The one in respect of Nature the other in respect of vs according to the doctrine of the learned Protestants themselues thus teaching Nottus est duplex Vnum Naturae vlterum nobis that here the Question is only of such Notes as are Notes in respect of vs for our better informing which is the true Church since here we are instructed à postartori and according to the measure of that knowledg which God vouchsafes to affoard to vs. And not as they are Notes in respect of Nature Which Notes in regard of Nature are euer 〈…〉 sicall secret and often essentiall to the thing of which they are Notes Now in reference hereto we freeâ—y grant that the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments may be tearmed Notes of the Church but not Notes to vs which is the only point now isluable for though they be Notes in Nature of the true Church yet what anayleth it vs since they are not Notes to vs for our direction to find which is the true Church And here we are to remember that the Question is not what kind of Notes or what kind of knowledge is better for it is granted that scire per Causas is most perfect and noble but the Question is what kind of knowledge God is content to imparte to vs in this life for the attayning of the Mysteryes of our fâ—â—th and particularly for the knowing searching out which is his Church Now that the true preaching of the Word and vse of the Sacraments cannot be erected as notes of Christs Church I euer meane in respect of vs is seuerall wayes demonstrated And first this I prooue from the Nature of a Note which is euer to be of a greater perspicuity and clearnes and better knowne to vs then the thing is of which it is a Note Since otherwise it should follow an inference both in reason and Art most absurd that that which is vnknowne should be prooued by an other thing which is lesse knowne anâ— more obscure That the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments which is but a necessary 〈◊〉 to the true preaching of the Scripture are more obscure and vnknowne to vs then is the Church I prooue first from the Scripture which teacheth that true sayth which is the effect of true preaching the Word proceedeth only from the Ministery of the Church according to that how shall they beleiue whom they haue not heard and ho 〈…〉 sh aâ— they heare without a Preacher Thus Gods sacred Word we see doth presuppose that the Minister who is the member of the Church and consequently it followeth hereby that the Church must be afore knowne doth reueale vnto vs the true sense of the Scripture And therefore Caluin thus well sayth of this point Deus potest memo 〈…〉 sues perficere nolit tamen eos adolâ—scere in 〈…〉 ilem â—tatem nisi educatione Ecclesiae God can peâ—fect and instruct vs in a moment meaning touching fayth yet he will not bring vs to any manlike as it were and perfect strength therein but by the help and labâ—ur of the Church And hence it is that in all Controuersyes touching fayth we are alwayes for the determining of them botâ— in the iudgments of the auncient Fathers and learned Protestants referred to the Church Among whom I cannot here pretermit the sentence of D. Field thus wryting Seeing tâ—e Controuersies in our tyme are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate c. What remayneth for meâ— dâ—sirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but deligeâ—tly to search out which among all the societyes of Men in the World is that blessed Company of Holy Ones that house-hould of fayth that spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they m 〈…〉 follow her directions and reâ—i in her 〈◊〉 Thus we are instructed by this learned Protestant to know which is the true fayth in all Controuersyes and sincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Word from the Church and not to know which is the Church from the sincere preaching of the Word Secondly that the true prea 〈…〉 of the Word and the vse of the Sacrements â—re more ob 〈…〉 and difficult to vs to be knowne then to know 〈◊〉 is the true Church appeareth from the voluntâ—â—y acknowledgments of our most iudicious Aduersaries For greater 〈◊〉 heareiâ— I will insist only in oâ—e or two And to omit the answearable iudgment hearto of D. Fyeld potentially included in his 〈…〉 met words We do fynd Iustus Molitor a learned Protestant and Aduersary in his 〈…〉 gs to Cardinal Beâ—lâ—rmyâ—e thus to confes Nobis Quo ad iud 〈…〉 s â—o fâ—sâ— alâ— qua notitià prius vera Eccles 〈…〉 quam 〈◊〉 praedicatio 〈…〉 oâ—escit c. The true Church by a cert 〈…〉 co 〈…〉 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 kâ—oâ—ne to vs according to the iudgment of reâ—son then the preaching of the true word is knowne With whom c 〈…〉 pireth in exprâ—s Words the foresaid mentioned 〈…〉 testart Lubbertus thus wryting Sacramenta in v 〈…〉 nt nobis m 〈…〉 quam â—psa Ecclesia The true vse of the 〈…〉 ments iâ— lesse knowne â—o vs 〈◊〉 the Church And 〈◊〉 geueth his â—eason hereof in these Words Nobis notioâ—a su 〈…〉 externa signaâ—per quae remâ— quâ—â—doque cogn 〈…〉 The external signes are more man 〈…〉 st 〈◊〉 vâ— by which we know a thiâ—g 〈◊〉 heareby impâ—ying that the true administration of the word Sacraments is internal and inward in respect of the true externall Notes of the Church For although eich preaching of the Word and vse of Sacraments be externall and subâ—ect to the outward Sense yet which is the true preaching of the word and true administration of the Sacraments for as they are purely preached and sincerely administred so and no otherwise are they appoynted by the Protestants for the Marks of the Church is internal since truth in doctryne is internal and inuisible We may ad hearto that in the note of true preaching the word the beliuing receauing it so preached this with perseuerance is included
being a Professed Deuine shal be in those disputâ— your cheifest opponent and Antagonist And if any of our Doctours shall by writing impugne your said discourses you shall giue your faithfull promisse to reply thereto And lastly you shall pray for the well-fare of his Maiesty vnder whose happy and clement gouerment your former Transgressions are so mildly chastized VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord. I willingly accept of the Disputation Where I doubt not but to lay open at full the superstition of that Man of sinne But what Must in the meane tyme Michâ—as a member of Antichrist be freed from imprisonment and passe thus vnpunished Must the Whore of Babylon be entertayned among vs in her followers no worse then a chast and inteâ—erate Virgin Shall the words spoken in the Dragons voyce be so preuayling as to enchant the eares of the faythfull with her pleasing yet poysenous musicke Breifly shall Heresy Superstition and Idolatry the worst of all euill endeauour among vs and that in our Vniuersity to take place in the Soules of Christians with all impunitie and as exempt from controule Yf so then come O Lord of heauen hasten thy approach Ouerrunne the earth with an irresistable prosternation of all Creatures and reduce all things of their last Period and dissolution for now it seemes the tyme is that Gog and Magog the forces of Antichrist are let loose to ceaze vpon the faythfull without any gainsaying or opposition and to beget in mans soule a giddy dissipation of all his intellectuall powers MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Proijcis ampullas sesquipedalia verba You mouth it ouer loudly and vse very turgent and swelling words agaynst vs poore distressed Priests Catholicks Whos 's shyeld in the meane tyme is Patience whose armour our Confidence in God and whose recrimination rests in words of myldnes and charity Maledicimur benedicimus blasphemamur obsecramus But my very good Lord. To turne my speeches vnto you Touching this your sentence how innocent soeuer I am I do vndergoe it with all humblenes of mynd and without the least reluctation for I haue red Non iudices contra iudicem And I embrace it the more willingly since I hope that by this meanes the radiant and most shyning Truth of the Catholicke Doctryne in the former discussed Poynts will in the fight of so noble and worthy an Auditory as the famous Vniuersity of Oxford is more easily dispell the myst of all contrary Nouelis 〈…〉 e. Touching my Loyall duty to his Maiesty my prayer is this I speake not in a Dialogizing and feigned manner but plainly sincerely and seriously in the sight of God and his Angells God pres 〈…〉 ue King Charles and his Royall Queene with a prosperous and blessed Domination and gouerment ouer this Nation Grant to them the happynes to branch themselues forth into many disâ—ente and Progenyes from generation to generation And finally vouchs 〈…〉 fe most mercyfull God that the greatnes of this their temporall 〈…〉 ity may serue as a Type or â—dumbration to figure out their greater eternall Beautitude in the world to come And thus with bended knee and hart prostiated in all du 〈…〉 full humility and with all remonstrance of thankefulnes for this your â—l 〈…〉 ency and myldnes of Iudgment and sentence I take my last fare well with your good Lordship VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord must your former iudgment passe vnaltered and must it not be accompained with any chastizement at all L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE M. Vice-Chancelour Content your selfe with my former sentence It shall stand an oculus â—uus nequam est quia ego bonus sum I hope you will haue aduantage enough against him in your future disputation and it is more honour for you to haue the Victory ouer his Cause then ouer his Person And indeed it is inhumanity to depresse and waigh downe a poore old Man and a stranger with multiplicity of miseryes your selfe is a Schollar and therefore you are the â—ore to commiserate him being a Schollar And so with these my last words both of you may depart from this barre at your owne pleasure VICE C-HANCELOVR My Lord. Since such is your resolution I must rest satisfyed therewith and so I take my humble leaue of your Lordship As for you Michaeas I will not take any formall farewell with you because I hope according to my L. sentence deliuered I shall meete with you in our Vniuersitie this next Commencement at what tyme I will anatomize and dissect that Wh 〈…〉 re if Bab 〈…〉 lon and strike her in her Mayster veyâ—e and will to your irreperable disgrace display the falshood and absurdities of all your former dispersed Popish doctryres when your Auditour shall easily perceaue that you in your former wrytings did much pertake of the byrd that owed the wing from which you borrowed your penne And so till then I bid you A 〈…〉 eu MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour I do contemne these your Lucian and scoffing vaunts vnworthy to proceede from the mouth of a graue and learned Man At the tyme appoynted I meane to be present in your Vniuersity where I trust through the ayde of him whose cause I am then to mantayne to make good iustify all my former Catholicke doctrynes Touching your malignant demeanour for I can tearme it no better agaynst me throughout the whole Processe of this cauillous accusation know you that as all Christians in generall so Pryests and Catholickes more peculiarly of which number I am one are bound to requyte good for euill imitating therein our Lord who Cum malediceretur non maledicebat cum pateretur non commâ—nebatur Therefore in charitate Dei patientia Christi I freely forgiue you and will affoard you my dayly Prayers for your Conuersion and sauing of your Soule And with this M. Vice-Chancelour vntill the tyme set downe of our future disputation I leaue you FINIS GOD SAVE THE KING THE CONCLVSION to the Academicks of both the Vniuersities LEARNED and worthy Academicks Now Michaeas the Conuerted law hath acted his last Scene And new he heare pulleth off his visard vnder which in the former Dialogues he masked and taketh his last farewell with you in the playne and naturall Dialect of an 〈…〉 Pryest the Authour of the sayd Dialogues You haue heare perused the points discussed It hath in the former Dialogues I hope irrefraâ—ably bene proued that since the Apostles dayes euen to Luthers reuolt Our Cathelicke fayth without chanâ—e hath euen bene professed the ProtestaÌ„ts fayth hath neuer bene professed What demonstration more choaking You also haue seene with what disaduantage diuers of your Professours in regard of the most iust retorting of it vpon themselfâ— haue in greate wast and profusion of words wrongfully promisâ—uously charged all Catholicks with the hatefull Cryme of Disloyaltye Lastly heare hath bene laid open before you besids some 〈◊〉 discourses of certain Catholicke doctrines the venerable Antiquitie of Priesthood the lyke antiquity of the
shew their loue to the Truth by their hate to this Pillar and Foundation of Truth Besides this deportment disculps great Humility a Character euen of Christ himselfe dicite a me quia humilis sum corde so true it is that an humble man is like to a lowly vally sweetly seated Thus doing Micheas no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith of which point I am in greater hope in that it is obserued that whereas many Protestants haue becom Iewes yet not any Iew a Protestant D. WHITAKER The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope since most of these are but humane and morall inducements which stand subiect to errour and falshood and you are to call to minde that to run well out of the right way is noe better then to stand still Pálin dromêsan ' è dramêin cacôs Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ only the Holy Scriptures These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies These are of that worth as that they are profitable as the Apostle speaketh To Doctrine to reprooue to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfect instructed in all good workes of that Clearenes as that iustly they may be called lucerna pedibus meis Of that fulnes and amplitude as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted out of the booke of life if we either add or detract from thence finally of that easines and facility as that for picking out the true sence we are to receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit instructed by the Holy Ghost spiritus vbi vult spirat MICHEVS You both speake learnedly And first touching your directions my L. Card. I hold them most graue waighty Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law and the Prophets being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue and seing that multiplity of reading which your method exacts to wit of the Auntient Fathers the Generall Councels Ecclesiasticall Histories is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age my selfe not likely to liue so many years as will be answerable to so infinit a labour Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short and abreuiated course for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion Touching your graue aduice M. Doctour of relying only vpon the Writen word Grant that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define and determine all Controuersies in Religion yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one and the same text I should euer rest doubtfull once abandoning the sence giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe That no Prophesy of the Scriprure is made by priuat Intepretation And sure I am that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto that I am the more easily thus perswaded euen by both your speches at this present seing both of you do strengthen and fortifie your different iudgments touching the finall determining of Controuersies euen from the Scripture it selfe But what doth the Scripture speake different or rather contrary things Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture euer the same and vnchāgable Ego sum dominus et non mutor And indeede to speake plainly when you vrge those words spiritus vbi vult spirat whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit interpreting the Scripture I euer disliked this Principle euen before I beleeued in Christ as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other so that that man who for his Faith and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion which himselfe best pleaseth is like in my iudgment to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter then of the Elements well tempred togeather since he is in possibility Anything But to proceede seing the directions of neither of you in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them can at this present sorte vnto my case I must make election of some other method for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith And vnder both your fauours it shal be this wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament as you Christians call it I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes a Christian though as yet but a Christian imperfect and scarsly initiated So out of the same deuine Records I am instructed that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith incontaminate and free from all errour Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule who in his Epistle to the Romans much celebrateth the Faith of Rome saying To all that be at Rome the beloued of God called to be Saints Grace to you And againe I thanke my God for you c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world And yet more your obdience is published in euery place finally the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans as that he particularly euen in words ascribs one and the same Faith to himselfe and them saying That which is common to vs both your Faith and mine From all which texts it is euicted that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith Now here it comes to be examined whether Rome since her first embracing of it hath changed her Faith or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine which first the Apostles did plant in her This point most excellent Men deserus an exact discussing and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall doth pleade for my ignorance herein and makes my humble request for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment to you both to enter into a graue skirmish and feight of disputation herein Both of you are learned and therefore by vrging what can be said on either side able to accomplish this my desire both of you are charitable as I must suppose and therefore no doubt willing for my confirmation in the Christian Faith to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity as euer desirous to do good omnia sperat sustinet a charitable man partakes of the