we had best to leave it to the Judgment of those who are spiritual whether they do apprehend it to be according to the Truth of the Word That showers of rain and fruitful seasons do preach Jesus Christ For my part I must profess that I never learned any thing of Christ to be a Saviour of the World by any such showers Mr Goodw. I do not say That if men be negligent and careless that these will compel or necessitate any men to beleeve whether they will or no If you understand me thus you argue not to my sence I say not That God by giving rain and fruitful seasons doth necessitate any man to beleeve no nor by the preaching of the Gospel nor by any inward operation of his Spirit But this is that which I say and had I time and strength of body could clearly manifest from the Scripture and by evident Arguments yea and from the testimony of the best Writers That the Gentiles were in a capacity of coming to such a knowledg of God which was sufficient to save them I go no further Mr Symps You say That the Heathen have a sufficient means for the knowledg of the Gospel If you please to bring your Arguments for the proof of this I shall be ready in the strength of God to answer them and to maintain That the Heathen who never heard the Gospel have not a sufficient mans for the knowledg of the Gospel But because you say you are weary I dare not be so uncivil to press you any further at this time Mr Jesse spake to this effect I desire because there are many weak Christians here present that are apt to be troubled and to despair within themselves to hear such differences between godly and learned men they will be ready to say They know not what to beleeve nor what Religion to be of Therefore I shall onely desire to inform them this one thing namely That the difference between the two Opinions is not so great but that men whether they beleeve the one or the other they may be saved through the Grace of God in Jesus Christ. Mr Sympson replyed thus Mr Jesse Mr Jesse no more of that for I conceive that they that hold general Redemption and Free-will in opposition to Free-Grace never had any experimental knowledg of the Grace of God in Jesus Christ Mr Jesse I am sorry to hear such words come from you Then Mr Powel prayed and so the Congregation was dismissed Here ends the second Dispute THE THIRD DISPUTATION Being between Mr Goodwin and Mr Sympson at ALHALLOVV'S the great London Februar 11. 1649. Mr Cranford Mr Griffith Moderators The Clark desired silence in the Congregation and intreated the People to sit down Mr Sympson and Mr Powel did the like Mr Sympson PLease you Sir we will desire Mr Powel to pray Mr Goodwin Yes very well Sir Then Mr Powel prayed Mr Symps If you please Sir to make choyce of a Moderator without any Speeches or Prefaces we will address our selves to the Disputation For Speech will but beget Speech and it may be occasion passion which may hinder us in our work Mr Goodwin Very 〈◊〉 I hope I shall be able to moderate my my self or to be moderated by your self without any other in any just and reasonable way And therefore so far I willingly accept the motion Onely desire this That because I found some inconvenience in staying long the last time being in years I shall define that we may first agree upon certain bounds and limits of time for Disputation Mr Symps We will refer it to what time you shall 〈◊〉 Mr. Goodw. I shall be willing to stand as long as I am well able about two hours or somewhat more till about twelve a Clock or a little after and longer I shall not be well able to stay Mr Symps Whom will you please then to pitch upon for Moderator I shall leave it to you because I made choyce the last time Mr Goodw. I thought your motion had been to have forborn a Moderator however I have no exception against any supposing that they keep within the sphere and compass of a Moderator which is onely to see and order the Laws of the Dispute and not at all to intermeddle with the Disputation it self Mr Symps Sir her is Mr Ames and Mr Cranford if you please to make choyce of one of them Mr Goodw. I am very willing Mr Ames should be I liked his carriage the last time very well onely I desire that be should not intermeddle so much with the Question in dispute as he did the last day And if you please to joyn him * M. Griffith with him that was the last time I shall be willing that they may moderate I suppose he is not far from you Mr Symps Mr Ames desires to wave it therefore I desire Mr Cranford may be the man Mr Goodw. It is all one to me onely I expect that as I shall keep my self to the Laws of Dispute or howsoever shall submit to any lawful correction so I expect that the Moderators themselves be they one or more should be regular in observing the Laws of Moderators and not make any digression Mr Symps If you think they go beyond the bounds of Moderators you have liberty to speak to them Mr. Goodwin Very well Mr. Simpson This is your Question Whether the Heathen who want the Ministery of the Gospell have not sufficient means to believe unto salvation I am to answer your Arguments you affirm and I deny Mr. Goodwin Sir it appertains to me occupying the place this day of an Opponent to state the Question in my own sense according to which I shall be willing to own it and to plead for it Mr. Simpson Sir you should have done it had we not agreed upon it before You will have liberty to declare your sense plainly in urging of your arguments Mr. Goodwin We agreed upon the terms but not the stating of the Question I conceive it tends to a further benefit both to your self as unto all here present for me to give a distinct account of my sense in the Question which I maintain Mr. Simpson By no means I shall not grant that because I had not that liberty my selfe if we had agreed upon it to have altered any thing in the Question I should have done it I shall not grant you any advantage which I had not my self Mr. Goodwin I beseech you thus do you think that I should have lookt upon it as an advantage to you or disadvantage unto me to have given you free liberty to have declared the sense of your Question it 's contrary to all reason and to the law of Disputation that any man should lay down his Position and not be suffered to give forth his sense of the question in dispute Mr. Simpson I appeal to the Moderators if you please let them determine it Mr. Goodwin This doth not belong nor is it any
his liberty to choose whom he please Only this lieth upon him or them that shall do it to see that what is spoken be to the point and to cut off all by-passages that so we may drive things to an issue and that they do not ingage too much by way of disputation M. Powell I would make known to you and to the Congregation my thoughts both in relation to my self and to the businesse in hand 1. In relation to my self I speak it in the presence of the Lord his Angells and People who are present that my thoughts were not in the least to contend with you Mr. Goodwin or with any of yours out of any prejudice that I have to your person or disaffection for God knowes how much I did love and respect you and still do 2. My thoughts in bringing about the last meeting were not to ingage in the way of dispute but to come together and to discourse in a way of love and meeknesse and to receive satisfaction one from another in those things wherein we differ 3. In relation to my self I look upon my self as others do very unable and unfit to withstand M. Goodwin in a way of dispute and therefore should be glad that others who are fitter and better read in the controversie would undertake the work 4. If we shall do any thing this day in these particulars I desire to do it with the spirit of love according to the Gospell not striving who shall have the conquest but to cleare up the truth for the glory of God and the satisfaction of his people not to fall into bitternesse one against another I am resolved if I can to restrain my own corruption and so that God may not suffer dishonor no matter what becoms of me I desire that he may be glorified in me though I go away with shame M. Goodwin There is no man that shall exchange his opinion supposing it to be an error for a truth that shall need to say or fear that he shall suffer shame that God may be glorified in him for the truth is that he himself shall receive glory as well as God by every such exchange and certainly it is the greatest gain that any person under heaven how great soever in wisdom and knowledg otherwise can make to make an exchange of his drosse for silver and of that which pollutes his conscience for that which will make it shine and that like to an Angel of God which is by receiving and embracing the truth And therefore upon that account we need not fear suffering of shame or any disparagement if we shall be convinced of errour in our judgments certainly it will be the best Market that ever we came at the best bargain that ever we made in our lives And whereas you speak of your intention in the last meeting if there had not been something precedent to it on your part which made the acceptation of it more unworthy of you I should have been glad to have heard those words from you But if your desire and intent was to find out whether you or I had truth with us you on your side or I on mine you should have done well to have forborne those undue I may say words whereby you did asperse both me and those that relate to me in this way I cannot say in publike as in the Pulpit or upon the Exchange but before many and to censure and adjudge men or to reflect any thing in an oblique manner by way of disparagement before you know whether guilt or any such unworthinesse or no be found with them I conceive it was not faire nor Christian otherwise I approve of what you say and desire you so much grace from God that you may keep up close to those ingagements and not be a transgressor of your owne Law M. Pow. Give me leave to speak one word M. Good I twenty so they will be fruitfull M. Pow. I know not any thing of what you lay to my charge the last day you spake it and now say it again but God and my owne conscience know not of any such thing Stranger I was present at that time and shall testifie as near as I can that M. Powell only made a supposition to M. Price that he held some such thing M. Good Suppose you could come off upon these termes I am no sinister interpreter of mens sayings or doings yet those words and passages wherein you uttered your selfe to M. Price and who else was by I know not I know not with what interpretation you will come off if you speak like a man but that they were disparaging and reflecting upon me Yet whatever become of that the last time before my face two or three times over you appealed to the people and laid this to my charge that I would not suffer you to state your Question in your owne termes whereas I did not restraine nor no way prohibite you therein only desired you to explaine your terms wherein you stated it M. John Price The businesse of our former meeting was excentrecall to what we now meet upon we came then to this consideration to find out some men sound in the Faith for the dispatch of some businesse then under consideration and desiring to know who they were M. Powell was pleased to reply to me That he did not judge them who hold the Doctrine of Free-will and falling from grace as sound in the Faith To that I replyed If you have any thing to say to me touching any such thing I hope I should give a Christian account of it and at last it came to this that he profest he heard that I held such and such things and that many godly and good Christians report many strange things to be held by M. Goodwin I answered that we had very hard measure from many of our Congregationall Brethren we had indeed their good words for us but we did find that our credit and repute was much undermined by them We did professe before association of Churches though we did not practise it and if any of the Christian Brethren had any thing to say against us touching doctrine or practice we should give a very fair account of both to them M. Powell Since you have related so much on your part tell what answer I gave to you M. Price You was saying to this purpose that you did not hold such and such men meet to preach the Gospel and you heard that J in particular held so and so and also you heard from others that M. Goodwin held so and so not that you knew any thing your self and yet at last you spake out that so it was M. Spencer I desire that we may passe this by for though M. Powell did speak a word that might a little reflect upon your Congregation yet he did professe clearly that he had such high thoughts of M. Goodwin and his Congregation that he desired to reason together with them to
twice two make four so God loved the world that the whole world believing should be saved bring me such an example from Scripture or from any approved Author wherein the subject distributed was necessarily to partake of the benefit assigned to him by such a distribution M. Cranford Prove that it doth distribute M. Goodwin Either it doth distribute or else you must grant that there is no Substantive to the Adjective M. Cranford Was it not a great mercy that the Covenant was altered from a Covenant of Works to a Covenant of Grace M. Goodwin No not in your sense of the Covenant of Grace but the hardest measure that could be to the children of men M. Simpson It concerns you to require of M. Goodwin to prove by a Syllogisme that your interpretation is non-sense otherwise you have done nothing but talked all this while M. Powell I suppose he hath spoken in plain termes as much as he can put into a Syllogisme M. Goodwin Then take it thus if by the world be meant the Elect then there is a possibility that some of the Elect may perish but there is no possibility that any of the Elect should perish and therefore by the word world is not meant the Elect M. Powell I deny your consequence M. Goodwin Either such a consequence must follow that some of the Elect may perish or else this clause that whosoever believes shall not perish is impertinent and beares no manner of weight nor importance in it if there be an absolute necessity that the Elect should believe and be saved then there is a superfluity of this clause whosoever believeth shall not perish If God I say shall be supposed to have so loved the Elect or any certain number of men that he is resolved upon the account of this election of his that none of them shall perish then it will be found a meer impertinency or nonsense to put in such an exception or proviso as this that in case they believe they shall not perish for that I suppose is clearly included in this when he saith whosoever believeth shall be saved he intimates that whosoever doth not believe shall perish and so it followes that some of the Elect may perish M. Powell I deny the consequence of your major Proposition M. Goodwin If no other sense nor import can be found out for these words shall not perish but only upon a supposition that some may perish then your interpretation of the word world for the Elect cannot stand for it makes nonsense of the place because it supposeth that some of the elect may perish but in your sense it is impossible that any of them should perish therefore that cannot be the sense and meaning of the words M. Venning M. Goodwin cannot prove his Argument There is eternall life promised to them that are elected and believing is promised as well as eternall life therefore there is no implication that some of the elect should not believe and so may perish M. Goodwin What is believing here promised as clearly as eternall life upon believing it's cleare beside the truth M. Venning M. Goodwin cannot prove it therefore hold him to it M. Goodwin Observe the words God so loved the world that he gave his onely begotten Sonne that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life Now if there were a necessity that all those that are elected meant by the world here as you say should be saved and that there is no possibility that any of them should perish then this clause should not perish is impertinent and the mind of Christ would be every whit as complete and absolute if those words were left out namely if the sentence were read thus God so loved the elect that whosoever of them should believe should be saved and so that clause should not perish would be a meer absurdity M. Cranford M. Goodwin saith That if by the world be meant the elect then that clause of not perishing should bee in vain the reason is because the whole may as well be comprehended in these words They shall have eternall life M. Powell If it please you M. Goodwin I conceive that such a consequence cannot be deducted from the text that because the Lord addeth Whosoever believeth shall be saved that therefore there is a possibility that some of them may perish Doth not the Apostle when he speaks of assurance urge men to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure doth the exhortation hold forth any such thing that therefore it 's possible for them to fall because he thus exhorts them M. Goodwin I beseech you shew me what import or sense more there is in that clause should not perish then there would be in case it were wholly omitted and left out Or whether in saying God so loved the elect that every of them believing should have eternall life whether I say there be not as much in that clause as there is now this is put in M. Cran. We may consider the redemption wrought by Iesus Christ as complèted in two things in delivering us from the wrath and curse and in intitling of us to that life and grace from which we are fallen so he saith that every believer shall be delivered from wrath and shall have a repossession and right again unto that life and salvation from whence he is fallen M. Goodwin But the Question is whether there be not non-perishing included as well in those words shall have everlasting life as if the other words shall not perish were put in M. Caryll We may look upon it as confirmative that God should expresse it both in the negative and affirmative M. Goodwin If there be a sense wherein we may find more of the wisdome of God it is not for us to strike it out neither is there any reason that we should make God speak Tautologies when there is a fair sense of the words to be found out M. Drak God might but have made this promise that whosoever believes shall not perish and this had been great mercy and infinite love but to add that he shall have everlasting life this is ex abundanti he might have delivered men from hell and not have brought them to heaven M. Goodwin But is it possible for God to preserve a creature from perishing and not to give him everlasting life Not perishing doth include in it preservation in life and being M. Powell Let us not think because the Holy Ghost is pleased to use severall expressions to strengthen our faith in a thing that therefore it is needlesse to be added M. Goodwin I do not say it is needlesse to be added it is you that make it needlesse And for any man to say that the Holy Ghost speaks tautologies when we can find heavenly matter in the words this is contrary to the duty of an interpreter M. Cranf You have spent much time in this thing M. Goodwin saith that if by the world
undertaking to doe Truly it made me very earnest and desirous to heare how he could do it Because I am going into a darke Country where there is want of the Gospell and if he could have could or informed me how the Sun Moone and Starres teach the Gospell I should be very glad to have heard it But I take notice of this that now Mr. Goodwin instead of proving that he states his question another way And so M. Sympson takes it as he states it Now the dispute this day contrary to our expectation wherein Mr. Goodwin undertaking to prove that God hath given sufficient meanes unto the Heathen for their Salvation he hath urged it by two Arguments The first was from 1 Tim. 2. 4. Where the Apostle saith who will have all Men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth Now M. Sympson denied that Argument with this distinction that there is a Decretive and a Preceptive Will in God There was something else concerning the Word all and Praying for all Now I shall desire to take notice of two things first that M. Sympson might have denied the sequell of the major Proposition which was that the Apostle commands them to Pray for those that are in Authority c. and therefore it must follow that they must Pray for all others For the Apostle gives the Reason why they should Pray for all that are in Authority that they might lead a peaceable and quiet life under them The second Argument which Mr. Goodwin urged was this If Jesus Christ gave Himself a Ransome for all then He gave the meanes of Salvation to all But He gave Himself a Ransome for all ergo Now there is falacia dicti there for the Word all is well known to be taken for all sorts and sometimes for a great number and not for all men As in Luke 2. Hebrewes 2. He Died for all that is for all sorts of men I have but two words more to speak First I desire you to consider this how Mr. Goodwin hath run Himself although a good Saylor and lost his Ship in the Sands And secondly consider withall how he doth deny his own saying which he acknowledged the last time namely that there were Decrees in God from Eternity and that He said that Decrees did respect states of men from Eternity and not perticular Persons Thirdly I desire you to take notice of a good Observation that Mr. Goodwin hath in one of his Bookes namely that one error leads unto many others and hath many kindred As a man that marries a Wife hath many Kindred that relate to him by meanes thereof So Mr. Goodwin houlding this error many other errors Cosen Germain to it will come in and follow upon it which he must maintaine And I desire to speake only this as the sum of what I have to say and I shall finish it in two words to desire the Congregation first to examine those Scriptures which have been urged on either side and so to desire the Lord to give them His Spirit to helpe them to the right understanding thereof And secondly that this Congregation would consider that M. Goodwin is singular in his Opinion for any thing I know in distinguishing between the Decrees of God and the Object of His Decrees for there are many Ancient and moderne Writers against him Thirdly I desire you to consider this that these Positions of his which may seem to cary a great stroke in the World they are no new things for many others before him have urged them with as much strength of Argument as Mr. Goodwin though very able can doe And lastly I desire this that if so be the Lord hath been pleased to perswade you either this time or the last that hereafter you would not suffer either Satan or his instruments to draw you aside from the ancient and pure Gospel which teaches Jesus Christ unto you For I professe if that be truth that the Sun Moon and Starrs do preach a Mediator I professe that both I and many more are to learn Jesus Christ from them and I might appeal to M. Goodwin himself whether he hath ever learned a Mediator from them or no. M. Goodwin You have taken liberty to speake your mind in folio and among others that contradiction of yours is evident in saying that I was singular in my opinion when immediately in the next words you add that I said nothing but what was said of old and what other men use to say And here I add that all that I hold in these controversies about the death of Christ and the extent of it and the power of believing given unto men and so of other matters as of personall Election and Salvation they are nothing but what were held generally by the Churches of Christ for the first 300. years next after Christ and there were none of your opinion then heard of or acknowledged in the world and Calvin speaking about election upon foreseene Faith in his 23. chap. of 3. book of his Institutions Sect. 1. he saith that the time of this opinion which was for the first 300. yeares after Christ which according to the sense of all Divines were the purest times of the Church and wherein there were the least inrodes and incroachments made by errors upon saving truths the great truths of the Gospell There was no noise in the least of any such opinion by those that were accounted Orthodox in those daies And this is acknowledged upon the matter by all our late learned writers to this very day it is known unto all those that have but a little knowledge in books that all the Reformed Protestants that are of that way called Lutheran who are not inferiour to those that follow Calvin neither for number nor learning nor parts nor zeal all these generally it may be some few no considerable number excepted they all stand up for that opinion which I now hold nay even the Ministers themselves among us that are here in the City and they that plead so fiercely against this opinion I may say as the Roman Oratour said concerning civill Justice It is so necessary that even theeves who live by injustice could not hold together without it nor want it in their own societies So I say these truths about the Vniversality of the death of Christ and the power which God hath given unto all men to believe unto salvation they are so essentially and absolutely necessary that those very persons themselves who declare to the contrary they cannot well speak any thing not preach a Sermon nor write a book but they must give testimony to this truth I desire to give you but a tast only of two instances The first is what M. Powell himself hath lately preached in one of the greatest Auditories in the City which also he hath since printed In the 39. and 40. pages of the said book he makes this objection to himselfe which he puts into the mouth of some
see whether any such thing was so or no. M. Powell This is my witnesse the testimony of my conscience and here are many present can witnesse also that I would indeavour that there might bee a meeting of the Ministers and Elders of the Churches of London that so there might be a right understanding of things between them M. Price Sir I verily believe that you are ingenuous and have done nothing out of rancor M. Jess I desire to propound this to your consideration because I perceive that M. Powell's gift doth not lie in a way of dispute I rather desire that some other may be the party M. Goodwin I suppose there is no man will preach a Doctrine but he will give an account of it and will be able to prove it and so in a sense he is fit to dispute it M. Powell I account not my self a disputer of this world M. Goodwin He that disputeth the things of Iesus Christ he is no disputer of this world M. Powell I am come to maintain and assert in the plainest manner according to the Scriptures the truths that I do hold and that other Pastors and and Teachers of Christian Churches do hold and M. Goodwin is come to maintaine that which he conceives to be truth let us as we are able go on to maintain them for the glory of God and the edification of the people M. Goodwin We are upon the point agreed only if so be you decline the name of a dispute and that which it imports and exhibits then if you will nominate and state your Doctrine in opposition to mine and so argue it from the Scriptures by considering the parts of it first one and then another I shall be willing to admit of this conference between us M. Powell With all my heart I agree to it At this turn M. John Sympson besought a blessing upon the undertaking which done proceeded thus M. Powell M. Goodwin hath offered it and I am willing to consent to it that each of us lay downe those things which we hold and so to give Scriptures and Reasons for the maintaining thereof M. Goodwin That was not my proposition but the one half of it was for since this meeting was to satisfie you in what I hold supposing my judgement to be erroneous and yours orthodox and sound my proposition was that you would please to lay down your opinion which is contrary to mine and so produce your proofs from Scripture one after another that so we may see whether they will amount to the confirmation thereof yea or no. M. Iess You that were here the last time please to make discovery how for was proceeded M. Goodwin It may be M. Powell may go more clearly to work if he will propose his opinion contrary to mine and first see if it be so and then produce his proofs of it and in case his Doctrine shall be found contrary to mine and if he can prove it then I will submit M. Powell For my part I shall very willingly and freely accept of this way as conceiving it the best to understand the truth for my aim is to know wherein we differ and how we may come to be reconciled I offered three things the last time and shall now endeavour to prove them I conceive by what I heard from you then and formerly that we differ concerning Election Redemption Mans will and concerning falling away from grace Now if it please you you shall have your choice whether of these we shall discourse of and so I shall lay down my position and give you the grounds of it M. Goodwin First you have no ground from what you heard from me to conceive that my judgement was concerning falling away M. Iess Your desire the last day M. Powell was to discourse concerning Election and Redemption and the variety and multiplicity of Questions will but confound you M. Powell This was that which M. Goodwin laid down That Christ died intentionally on Gods part and on his own part to save all the posterity of Adam M. Goodwin Though for your satisfaction I gave you an account of my opinion yet I desire that you would state yours in opposition to mine M. Powell I offered then to prove first that Iesus Christ did not die alike for every man Secondly that he did not die to redeem every man from the guilt of his sin and from the curse of the Law M. Goodwin If you will argue against my Doctrine you must state your opinion contradictory to mine M. Powell It will lie upon you in the first place to prove your proposition and then upon me to prove the contrary M. Goodwin If you please then though the nature of the dispute doth not call upon me for it yet I will give you a briefe account of my opinion what it is and in what sense I hold it and then shall prove it from the Scripture and so that two do not speak at once I care not though twenty speak to it M. Powell I desire only to speak three things in three words because I hope they will tend to the glory of God First that if any of us shall break out into passion we may be told of it and kept from it Secondly if any one hath any thing to speak unto the point after both of us have spoken that they may do it orderly Thirdly that we may now agree whether to argue in a syllogisticall way or otherwise the Propositions being laid down to bring Scriptures to prove them M. Goodwin If you will reason from the Scriptures and argue from them I am willing M. Powell It is necessary that we explain the termes in the Proposition M. Goodwin This then is my judgment and doctrine touching the point of Gods intention in the death of Christ or in the matter of redemption and salvation I say it down thus That God did intend or the intention of God in the death of Christ was that all Adams posterity should be saved and redeemed This doctrine I thus explain and this is my sense in it When I affirm that the intention of God was that all Adams posterity should be saved I attribute intentions to God only in such a sense as he is capable of intending any thing or wherein they are appropriable or attributable to him which sense is this Supposing God to be a most pure simple undivided and indivisible Essence in himself not capable of any multiplicity or plurality of actions but remaining unchangeable every way he doth not intend things after the manner of creatures the difference I explain thus A man when he intends any thing the act of his mind by which his intention is produced it is essentially distinct from his essence and being and from the nature of his soul so that his soul is one thing and his intention another but now in attributing intentions to God I do not conceive that his intention is one thing and God himself another but he
the right determination whereof depends the whole glory of the grace of God and the whole comfort and salvation of mankind the whole glory of the grace of God depends upon it for if so be there be such an universall redemption of every particular man in the world and upon those terms that it 's hung open in the ayre catch that catch will and none was more in the eye of God then other in the death of his Sonne truly instead of maintaining universall grace you maintain no grace at all M. Goodwin One discourse in this kind will but beget another but I shall prove God willing both to your self and others that your sense and opinion in restraining the death of Christ for such and such particular persons doth wholly dissolve and eclipse the grace of God and that there is no other way to set it forth like unto it self or worthy of God but only according to such an assertion that God did intend the salvation of all by the death of Christ and that the comfort of all men and every particular man doth depend upon it and if men will but reason like men or according to the Scriptures it 's impossible that there should be any ground of consolation upon any other accompt M. Simpson We have been long about this somthing I conceive hath been spoken for edification but if M. Goodwin will oppose or answer me will still provide those that shall oppose or answer him onely this I desire that this order may be observed for the future that the Moderator who shall be pitcht upon may not speak any thing to discover his own judgment onely to keep them to the Question and to see the Propositions proved that are denied And secondly I desire that no man may be suffered to speak a word but he that doth oppose and he that doth answer and if these rules be observed some good may come of it M. Goodwin I think there should be a second allowed on both sides M. Powell I shall make bold to speak one word for my part I blesse God that our meeting hath been as it hath that there hath been no more contention or division amongst us and I refer what hath been controverted to the Congregation and desire them to judge of it And if M. Goodwin will ingage further at another time there will be some to oppose him M. Simpson I will never undertake to dispute unlesse every man shall be commanded silence but the two Disputants and the Moderator to keep us to the Question And M. Goodwin having at this time pressed his Arguments if now he will answer to the Question there shall be some ready still to oppose M. Goodwin Though I conceive the lawes of Dispute in this kind will somwhat suffer by the observation of those rules yet if the truth will not be entertained nor the Dispute carried on but upon that motion I shall stand to it THE SECOND DISPUTATION BETWIXT Mr. John Goodwin and Mr. John Simpson at All hallowes the Great in Thames-street London January 14. 1649. M. Ames M. Griffeth Moderators After the orderly disposal of themselves for the best advantage to the Hearers Mr. Goodwin in the Gallery and Mr. Simpson in the Pulpit it began thus M. Simpson SIR if you please I shall speak only one word to the people in reference to our present meeting and then we will choose a Moderator and desire him to speak a word for us to the Lord I have only one short word to say which is to informe you that the businesse about which we are met at this time it is as I conceive an Ordinance of God we read in the 9. of the Acts that Paul disputed with the Grecians and in the 17. of the Acts that he disputed with the Jewes Grecians and Philosophers and in the 19. of the Acts that he disputed daily in the School of one Tyrannus and therfore my humble request unto you is that ye would behave and demean your selves so as people that stand in the presence of God and do apprehend that we have an Ordinance of God in hand I know there are some weak Objections which some bring against what I now say as first that of the Apostle Phil. 2. where he commands that all things be done without disputings and that in the 1. of Tim. 6. where he speaks against perverse disputings But the answer is easie that he doth not speak in either of these places against his own practise but against those Disputations which proceed from perversnesse and corruption in the hearts of men Another thing that some will object is this that the weak are not to be admitted to doubtfull Disputations and therfore not to such a conference or dispute as this is To which I answer That when the Apostle speaks against the admitting of weak Christians to doubtfull Disputations hee speakes of those Disputations which concerne not things fundamentall But the point which we are upon is of great concernment a fundamentall point in Religion the ground of Faith what it is that every man and woman must believe that they may be saved As whether they are to believe that Christ died with an intention to save all the Posterity of Adam or whether he died to save sinners indefinitely that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but c. and therefore I conceive that Objection will not at all prejudice our practise at this time A third Objection is this That there are such incivilities usually amongst the people at such conferences that it were a great deale better to let them alone then for godly men to ingage in them To this I answer That this is the fault of the people and not of the duty and I hope your ingenuity will be such at this time and your Christianity that ye will be able by your demeanure to confute this objection I hope you will remember that ye are Christians the most of ye and that ye ought in body and soul to behave your selves in all things to the glory of your heavenly Father The last objection that I have met withall is this that usually in such disputes men rather seek themselves then the glory of Jesus Christ and vent their passion and seek for mastery rather then for truth But I hope there will be such a presence of the Spirit of Grace in the learned respondent and my self that by our deportment we shall be able to overthrow and to detect the weaknesse of this objection and therefore I desire ye with silence and candor to hear us whilst we seek not our selves but the glory of God in the exaltation of truth in the name of the Lord Jesus Mr. Goodwin I hope the people of God here gathered together will give me also the patient hearing of a word or two and so mete out the same measure unto me which they have done to you Whereas Mr. Simpson was pleased to instance in severall places wherein Paul the
that expresly and punctually in the letter affirme that he Died for all therefore cleare it is at least thus far that all those arguments which are brought from the Scriptures to prove the contrary they must be founded and built upon the Discussions Issuings and givings out of the reasons and Apprehensions of men Mr. Symp. I crave leave to add one word in answer to what you have spoken for the first thing I shall not speak much to it but shall shew of what necessity this Point is I hope in the prosecution of our Discourse But secondly whereas you seeme to work upon the People by telling them that you were formerly of that Opinion and Judgement which I stand here to maintaine I shall only say this and leave it with you That Master Goodwin is not the first Man that hath held forth the Truth of Jesus Christ and afterwards departed from it But then whereas you say that Christ Dying for all is from expresse Scripture and that the contrary must be infer'd only by reason and argument this is the businesse of our Dispute and therefore you ought not without liberty to have spoken to it Mr. Goodwin Sir you impose a great necessity upon me To returne a word or two unto you you informe this People with as much disparagement and uningenuity as likely can be in so many words by telling them that I was not the first Man that departed from the Faith of Jesus Christ to an heterodox Faith and Opinion wherein you certainely triumph before the Battell and cry victoria before you put on your harnesse Possitively concluding that though I was not the first yet I am in the number and retinue of those who have deserted the Christian Faith and turned in unto error and I hope I may as freely say this that as you are not the first so I hope you will not be the last who shall dissert an Error and Opinion and wayes that are not streight to turne into the wayes of Life and Peace I had rather professe my hope and Christian Belief concerning you herein then to censure or determine any thing against you as you your self have done against me and for my part it is in vaine for me to dispute if it be already concluded and determined before hand that I am one of those Mr. Symp. I speak my apprehension in the Presence of God I conceive that it is an error which you maintaine that Christ Died for all the posterity of Adam and that it is a Truth that he died in a particular manner for some And therefore according to my apprehension I cannot but deale plainly and ingenuously by you to tell you in the Presence of God that if you did first hold this and afterwards depart from it that then you forsooke the truth to imbrace an error But because replies will be infinitum will you please Sir to pitch upon a Moderator an indifferent Man who may judge of our Syllogismes and keep us to the question Mr. Goodwin I suppose his interest who ever he be will be only to see the Disputation fairely carried and that the Reasonings and Arguings to and fro be pertinent and close and direct to the Point in hand and therefore to me its all of one and the same consideration who is the Man that shall undertake it Two Moderators chosen Mr. Griffith and Mr. Ames Mr. Symp. If you please we shall desire one of the Moderators to speak a word unto the Lord for it is the Rule of the Apostle to doe all things in the Name of the Lord Jesus and unto God by him Mr. Ames then Prayed c. And afterwards the dispute proceeded thus Mr. Symp. Sir this is your Position as I have received it from the hand of Mr. Powel which I intend by the assistance of the Lord to oppose That Jesus Christ on Gods Part and on his own Part in His Death died intentionally to save all the Posterity of Adam Is this the Position that you intend to maintaine Mr. Goodw. If it please you there are no termes in that tenor or forme that doe much displease me but I had rather contract if it you will and let it be thus that Iesus Christ Died intentionally for all Men or the Death of Christ was intended by God for all Men. Mr. Ames Sir there seemes I humbly conceive to be a necessity for the putting in of some other words to the right stating of this question those who understand the great Controversie betweene the one and the other in this Point call for some other stating of it as namely thus Whether or no Iesus Christ in His Death and Passion did equally intend the Salvation of all the Posterity of the first Adam one and other without any difference pardon Me Sir herein that I am put upon it to speak Mr. Goodw. Sir I conceive a pardon is only in case of offence and transgression but I know none that you have committed in what you have now spoken only I suppose that the interposition of that word equally will not so much modell the Question as multiply questions and of one it will beget many for to inquire whether Christ Died equally for all it seemes to import this not only whether Christ in the first and primary intention of His Death did intend the Salvation of all Men but whether notwithstanding any difference that should arise in Men from themselves in the course of their Lives and Conversations afterwards whether yet after any such difference as for example after their Apostacy or committing the sin against the Holy Ghost that yet the Death of Christ was or is then equally referrable and relating to the Salvation of these Men as well as of any other Now this as I say is a question altogether excentricall to that question which we are now come together to argue and to consider of Mr. Symp. Mr. Moderator if you please let that alone for it will fall in of it self Sir I prove then that Iesus Christ did not die intentionally for all the posterity of Adam Mr. Goodw. Very well Mr. Symp. First Argument If Christ Died intentionally for the Salvation of all the Posterity of Adam then he Died as a means of their Salvation But he did not die as a meanes of their Salvation and therefore he did not die for all the Posterity of Adam Mr. Goodw. For the present I shall not distinguish but deny your Minor I shall have opportunity to distinguish it afterwards in the prosecution Mr. Symp. The Proposition to be proved is this That Jesus Christ did not die as a meanes for the Salvation of all Men which I prove thus If He Died as a meanes of the salvation of all Men He Died as an effectuall or as an ineffectuall meanes But Jesus Christ neither Died as an effectuall nor as an ineffectuall And therefore He did not die as a meanes at all Mr. Goodw. I answer by distinguishing of your Minor Proposition
to make evident in some other Dispute you then held forth free-will to the opposing if not to the overthrowing of free-grace I mean as it is held forth in the Gospell of the Lord Jesus M. Goodwin Sir there are some hundreds of persons here present who have been constant hearers of my Doctrine in these controversies and many of them have heard my judgement both in publike and private And I appeal to them all conjunctim divisim whether ever they heard any word fall from me either in publike or in private which did any wayes tend to the exaltation or magnifying of free-will in man or to the depressing abasing and destroying of the free grace of God M. Simpson Sir but that I am unwilling to disturb the Disputation I could by severall arguments make it evident that you overthrow the eternall election of Gods free grace that you have laid the salvation of man upon the creatures believing and not upon the free grace of God electing and this overthrowes free-grace and sets up free-will but I desire to omit this at present and shall refer it to another oportunity to dispute it with you and in the mean time intreat you to keep to the bunesse in hand having agreed upon the Question M. Goodw. This I say I conceive the declaration of my sense in the Question may be of better consequence and tend to a better issue and edification of all that are present then the Dispute it self may do And my Reason is this because I suppose that when I shall have delivered my sense in it possibly it may tend to a reconcilement of the opinions and I shall be found to hold nothing in so great an opposition to you as you conceive I do but that your sense and mine may unaminously agree and I conceive that such an issue and fruit as this will answer every way to any benefit whatsoever that may otherwayes accrue unto the people M. Simpson You have said what you can and I shall be willing to refer it to the Moderators M. Goodwin I shall be willing to hear what they have to say to the businesse Mr. Cranford Sir for the quieting of this difference betweene you Mr. Griffeth and I have considered it together and we conceive it very sutable to the Law of Disputes that the Question be stated before you dispute But we conceive that it belongs to the Respondent to state the Question in what sense he holds it and in what sense he denies it And when he hath made his Thsis declaring in what sense he holds or denies then it 's lawfull for you to make your Antithesis and to declare what you allow of in the Position and what you disallow M. Goodwin I think there is reason in what you say onely then there is none in what he said before he complained of want of liberty to state his Question when it was never deni'd him M. Griff. It belongs to the Respondent to state the Question M. Goodwin VVhen the sense of the Opinion is declared it will be either the same that I shall own and subscribe to or otherwise If it fall crosse in any thing unto mine then the occasion and liberty is devolved upon me of course and equity to declare my sense M. Cranford Yes surely M. Simpson Mr. Moderator what conceive you to be reasonable in this thing I did not come hither to make my suppositum as they cal it in the Schools I know it lies upon the Respondent to state the Question and therefore he needs not to contend for it M. Cranford If you please to give us the Question in writing Then the Question was written and delivered to them that we may have it in our hands before us M. Simpson This is the Question Whether the Heathen who want the ministery of the Gospell have not sufficiency of means to believe unto salvation M. Goodwin Very well I own the terms if you please to expresse your sense of it and in particular touching what sufficiency of means you understand and the reason of my desire to hear your sense in that point is because there is a double sufficiency of means to do a thing First Immediate and Conjunct Secondly Remote or Mediate Now by an immediate or conjunct sufficiency I mean the possession of such means by which a man is immediately enabled without doing any thing more or obtaining any thing more then what he hath at present to perform the thing As for example in case a man doth understand a language perfectly as the French withall hath his sense perfect of hearing such a man hath an immediate sufficiency to understand the mind of him that shall speak to him in that language and needs nothing more then what he hath already the knowledge of the tongue and his sense of hearing perfectly But now by a remote and mediate sufficiency I mean such a sufficiency by which a man is not able presently and immediately to performe the thing but yet he is able to doe such things or to compasse such farther means by which he shall possesse himselfe of an immediate capacity to doe it As for example though we have not a sufficiency of meanes at present to speake or to understand him that speakes in an unknowne tongue Spanish or the like yet we have a remote sufficiency in this kind that is principles of reason and understanding by a regular improvement whereof as by study c. we may come to have such an immediate sufficiency Now my sense of the question in hand is touching this latter sufficiency of means I do not mean that the Gentiles or any other have any present or immediate sufficiency of means to believe originally given to them by God but that they have a remote sufficiency that is such a sufficiency of meanes by the use whereof they may possese themselves of such farther meanes by which they shall be immediately inabled to believe This for that Again for those words the Ministery of the Gospell I would onely put in these words by men For I confesse there is no sufficiency of meanes for a man to believe but by the Ministery of the Gospell But now as for such a Ministery of the Gospell which I suppose you intend as an orall or verball Ministery of it by men so I say there may be a sufficiency of meanes for men to believe without the preaching of the Gospell viz. by any declaration or manifestation of the truth and substance of the Gospell whether by men or words or what means els soever Mr. Simpson Sir I desire to have liberty to speak a few words though I did not intend it M. Goodwin You need not desire liberty to speak M. Simpson Sir I do find three sorts of men who do write concerning this Question The first is Socinus and some others who do hold that Heathens by the light of nature have sufficient means to believe unto to salvation And he holds
to be saved c. Mr. Simpsons distinction is this that all men signifies onely all sorts of men that are within the sound of the Gospel your disproofe of this was from the Apostles context that all men must signifie every particular man your reason was because every particular man was to be prayed for To prove that you cite the second verse because all Kings were to be prayed for and every particular of that sort Now Mr. Simpson doth deny the consequence that though every particular King and all in Authority should be prayed for yet it will not follow from thence that every particular man in the world should be prayed for Mr. Good If Mr. Simpson will own that Argument we will answer to it Mr. Simp. I answer that it is the will of God that we should pray for Kings and all that are in Authority that they may rule well but it is not the will of God that we should pray absolutely for their salvation Mr. Good That 's not the question but whether we may pray at all for their salvation If you will take away my Argument you must either prove that all of one sort are not to be prayed for Or if so that yet notwithstanding all of another sort are not to be prayed for Mr. Simp. My answer is this which I will stand by that the Apostle here doth not mean all men without exception but all sorts of men And I conceive that it is not the mind of God nor of the Apostle that we should pray for all particular Kings for their salvation now if you can disprove this answer and overthrow it I shall grant you the Question Mr. Good I proved that it is the mind of the Apostle that all Kings and all that are in Authority should be prayed for As to the matter of salvation I beseech you consider that is nothing at all to the Argument For what is to be proved is that all that are in Authority are to be prayed for whether conditionally or not that is not the business but that they are to be prayed for And if that be granted which is the expresse and undeniable letter of the words and cannot be avoided Then it doth evidently follow that by all men in the 4th verse must of necessity be understood all men without exception otherwise the motive will be incommensurable and narrower then the exhortation Mr. Cranf I beseech you Mr. Goodwin consider it there are two things which Mr. Simpson desires to be proved The first is concerning the objects to be prayed for you cite all Kings and all that are in Authority He saith not all Kings but onely those that are within the noise of the Gospel under which there are Christians That these Christians may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Secondly he saith further not for their salvation but that under them we may lead a peaceable and quiet life c. Mr. Good If Mr. Simpson will stand to this answer let him but own it and we will answer it Mr. Simp. I stand to my own answer which is this That the motive is answerable to the precept The precept is for the praying for all men The motive is that it is the mind of God that all sorts of people should come to the knowledge of the truth Mr. Good Though that be nothing to the Argument yet I will go along with you for the Argument is clearly founded upon the express words of the second verse which are For Kings and all that are in Authority and not onely for those that are in the Church and under the sound of the Gospel Mr. Simp. Your consequence cannot be proved for we say the motive is answerable to the precept Mr. Good The consequence is proved to my hand by the Holy Ghost himself who expresly here affirm's that he would have all men not all sorts of men only he doth not say that he would have all sorts of Magistrates that are in Authority but all Magistrates to be prayed for And you come in with words and turn the Scripture up-side-down and quite dèstroy the life and power of the Apostles meaning Mr. Simp. I say that the Apostle doth not mean all men but all sorts of men Mr. Good Your answer is not to purpose but I must go along with you in your wild chase If the Apostles exhortation be this that he would have all sorts of men to be prayed for then his meaning is that he would have them prayed for either as corporations and rankes and species of men or else as they are orders of men consisting of so many particulars and individuals but his sense and meaning neither is that he would have them prayed for as they are communities of men nor yet as they are particular men in every calling therefore his mind and meaning is not that he would have all sorts and rankes of men onely to be prayed for Mr. Simp. I answer to your minor proposition it is the will of God that we should pray for all sorts of men look upon them in corporations and look upon them as particular persons It is the mind of God I say that we pray for all particular men of all sorts qualities rankes and conditions not knowing who shall be saved and who shall be damned Mr. Good Very well then you and I are agreed for this is all that I say that all sorts and particulars of men ought to be prayed for in order to salvation Now you are come home to my sense and I hope we shall have a good issue of the business in the conclusion Mr. Simp. Consider it I beseech you you put in the word salvation now it was not in your syllogisme for it was deny'd that we are to pray for all of all sorts I told you we are not to pray for their salvation absolutely but conditionally M. Good That is not to the busines whether conditionally or absolutely but whether we are to pray for them that they may be saved or no. M. Simp. We are to pray for all men indefinitely not defining which particular person shall be saved and which not and so we are to pray for all men without exception M. Good Very well that is all that I say for my meaning is not that men should go about to learn the names of all men so to pray for every one by name But that we should pray for all men in the world in a generall and comprehensive manner M. Cranford Vnder favour that is not to pray for all men indefinitely but Vniversally singularly which M. Simpson denies M. Good I beseech you Sir keepe to the place of a Moderator You know there is no difference betweene indefinite and universall in a necessary proposition but they are equivalent therefore the duty of prayer being necessary herein to do a thing indefinitely and to do it universally is one and the same M. Simp. I deny that It