peace with Christian charitie And much more do Prouincial Councelles yeeld to the general sine vllis ambagibus without any more adoe and much more againe particulare Doctors And yet you with your swelling of sacrilegious pride with your stubbernes of arrogant Ventositie with your contentiousnes of peuish enuy will not yeeld neyther to Prouinciall nor to general Councel neyther after their confirmation and receauing so much more desperat then those Donatistes of whom he speaketh as they had one Doctor to wit S. Cyprian plainly of their opinion and you haue nere a one and yet will neither yéeld to all the Councels together but against them all come in with your ambages and aske But where is their Scripture as here cap. 7. pag. 89. thinking that you haue a witty deuise for this your tergiuersation when you say Pur. 430. The Councelles that are receiued are therefore receiued because they decreed truely and not the truth receiued because it was decreed in Councels Else why is the determination of the Nicene Councell which is but one beleeued against tenne Councels holden by the Arrianes but that the Nicene decreed according to the worde of God all the rest against it You might aswell say The Scriptures that are receiued are therefore receiued because they are written truely and not the truth receiued because it is written in the Scriptures Els why is the Gospel according to Mathew beléeued and not the Gospel according to the twelue but that the former is the word of God and the other is not But we say that the Scriptures being once receiued into the Canon and the Councels being once receiued by the Sée Apostolike what soeuer they say must be beléeued to be truth and that then none but Heretikes do make exceptions against them And that you therfore be an Heretike who not onely against all Councels so receiued for these 900. yeres but also against the very Nicene it selfe which you your selfe receiue do take your exception of Onely Scripture and that as it were by authoritie of S. Augustine cap. 9. pag. 179. and 173.180 Motiue 12. 28. See Apostolike Now for the Sée Apostolike it selfe which as it was the confirmer so was it both the gatherer with the Emperours helpe and also the President by the Patriarches and other Bishops and sometimes Priestes also béeing her Vicares of all approued Generall Councells what soeuer * Ar. 97. you or any other Heretike affirme to the contrarie without any testimonie I saye in my 28. Demaunde that none euer but Heretikes and Schismatikes did obstinately refuse eyther the fayth or the communion of that Sée Beholde two notable examples one vnder Pope Victor about the question of Easter the other vnder Pope Stephanus about the question of Heretikes Baptisme We shall catche this Ratte in them through his owne rumbling Victor anno 200. Ar. 27.36 Pur. 373. saith he was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches He passed the bondes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Then manye Bishoppes withstoode him specially Ireneus of Lyons and Polycrates of Ephesus as a Eus li. 5. c. 23.24.25 witnesseth Eusebius But who sayth that he eyther vsurped authoritie or passed the bondes of his authoritie No doubte Polycrates and his fellowes of Asia would so haue sayd if they had béene of your opinion about the Bishop of Rome or if that Bishoppes authoritie ouer all had not béene in those Primitiue dayes a playne matter The Storie was thus The Churches of Asia minor had receyued of S. Iohn Euangelist to kéepe oure Lords Pasch or Easter day not alwayes vpon Sonday but with the Iewes vpon the 14. of the Moone In which custome the Bishops of Rome who had receiued of S. Peter and Paule the other maner did tolerate them so long as it tended to the honour of burying the Law and not to the necessitie of obseruing the Lawe But when they sawe that a b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. necessitie was put therein in so much that the other maner was condemned by the Iudaizing Heretike c Tertul. d◠Praes Eus li. 5. ca. 14 Blastus then loe they thought good to tolerate them no longer but S. Victor after that his b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. predecessours Pius Anicetus Eleutherius had sent out decrées against that maner and d Eus li. 5. ca. 22. all Bishops had ratified Decretum Ecclesiasticum the Ecclesiasticall Decree seing that they of Asia neither so obeied to walke vnto the truth of the Gospell vsing seueritie when it was high tyme commaunded them eyther to obey without any more adoe or to be depriued of the Churches communion Which censure of his did séeme to sharpe to S. Irenée and other Bishops of his owne obseruance As now also if he would excommunicate them which receaue not the Counsel of Trent it would séeme likewise to many who notwithstanding confesse that he hath authoritie ouer all But what was the end of the matter At length folowed the first Nicene Councel and confirmed the same that the Popes had commaunded in their Epistle to them of Alexandria writing this of the Asianes also You shall vnderstand Apud Theod. li. 1. ca. 9. that the controuersie of Easter is wisely pacified in so much that all our Bretheren that inhabite the East will now hereafter with one accord in keping the same followe the Romanes vs and all you So they promised the Councel And who so refused yet after that to do it were counted obstinate Heretikes Aug. Haer. 29. Soc. li. 6. ca. 10.20 Ar. 37. both in the Gréeke and Latine Church named testarescaidecaticai that is quartadecimane some such being yet in Asia in S. Chrysostomes tyme were by him as Bishop of Constantinople turned out of their Churches no lesse then the Nouatianes Lykewise saith Fulke towching the other case when Pope Stephanus threatned excōmunication to Helenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia because they thought that such as were baptized by Heretikes should be baptised againe Diony Al. ep ad Xystum Papā Succes Ste. apud Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3 4.5 he was misliked by Dionisius of Alexandria and diuers other godly Bishops Cyprian also reproueth him very sharpely for the same opinion accusing him of presumption and contumacie a Cypr. ep 74. Epist ad Pompeium And in his Epistle to b Cyp. epi. 71. Quintus he saith playnly that Peter him selfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the Primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiours You would make the Reader beléeue that he there saith Peter had not the Primacie wheras he saith expresly in the very same Periode Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem edificauit Eccleam suam Peter whom our Lord chose the first and vpon whom he buylded his Church Neither he nor Dionysius nor Firmilianus denieth the Primacie
worde of trueth desiring the spirite of trueth that you may vnderstande and beleeue the trueth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the trueth and of the Churche of God whiche is the pillar of truth So it is then good syr In this Seminarie of English diuines vnder the gouernement of D. Allen mainteined by his holines for the saluation of our countrey as he mainteineth the like for Germanie also for Bohemia and Students of Polonia The Popes Seminarie for England Suetia Slauonia Hungaria c. yea for the Gréekes likewise yea also for the Hebrues we haue such exercise in the scriptures that we reade ouer the old Testament in euery thrée yeres twelue times one of which times hath ioyned with it an examinatiō by conferēce from Chapter to Chapter and from verse to verse The new Testament we reade ouer in the same thrée yeres sixtéene times with a treble examinatiō of the same sort And not cōtent with those examinations we afterwards write moreouer in paper bookes lay together al the sentences that belong to the controuersies of this time euery one in his place And without all vanitie to speake one word of my selfe after many yeres studie afore after the maner of Englād as many of your owne side can beare me witnesse I haue since then folowed this foresaid trade nine yeres This is partly our diligence in the scriptures besides much other exercise both in the same and in all the studie of diuinitie What more diligence would you haue vs vse this is the principall and as you make it all in all All other helpes you counte but subordinate and seruing vnto this And yet in them also I dare saye if you knewe vs you woulde allowe vs for sufficient at the leaste You maye by the trace of God ere it be long haue some taste of vs therein when one of vs shall set forth a booke to shew to the world that the Hebrew and Gréeke textes in nothing make for you against vs and in very many things make for vs against you much more plainly then our vulgar Latine text Now then how much more certaine of the trueth be we then you also by your owne rule because your diligence herein is nothing comparable but specially because together with this rule we vse the expositiōs that you renounce of the auncient Fathers who for such conference of places and all other studie of the Scriptures were pearlesse ¶ The third part What he meaneth by his Onely Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe Thus haue we heard this Protestant call for expresse Scripture in all things yea also in the expounding of Scripture Now that he séeme not too straight and rigorous in his exception he will tell vs what he meaneth therby as it were to geue vs more scope but in déed as we shall heare soone after to shut vs straighter vp and to except also against Scripture it selfe vnlesse it be so plaine and euident for vs that by no subteltie of theirs they may auoide it Concerning the former thus he saith When we require expresse Scripture for euery controuersie we doe not require that euery thing should be named in Scripture but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them Then on the other side he almost repenteth himselfe againe for graunting so much and saieth And yet we may say Pur. 438. it is a great preiudice against your Purgatorie and prayer that it is not so much as once named in the Scriptures Againe If the holy Ghost had euer allowed Prayer for the deade he would once at the least haue vttered the same plainely in holy Canonicall Scriptures Pur. 452. Canonicall he saith to except against the very meaning of it also which he séeth in the bookes of the Machabées rather shall that Canonicall Scripture not be Canonicall for so plainely naming that which the eares of the Protestantes can not abide Well in the other Canonicall Scriptures the name is not and that is a great preiudice against vs. But he will be fauourable vnto vs a great preiudice shal not make him geue iudgement against vs if at least The thing it selfe be taught or can be proued by the Scriptures Yet againe he remembreth him selfe Pur. 452. that D. Allen hath alleaged many Scriptures for that thing and the old Fathers likewise before him and therefore to tye vs yet straighter with another exception he said here a little afore But we require that euery thing be necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures And againe he saith speaking of D. Allen See the confidence of the man he is sure Pur. 364. that if we were examined of our conscience what tryall of this doubt we would wish there is none we could name but his cause might well abide it Wherevnto he answereth saying Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience long agoe that the onely authoritie of Gods word written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters If you were able we should haue heard before this time some sentence of Scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the dead Why in the third Chapter here you confessed that you haue heard of him diuerse sentences and not of him alone Supra pag. 19. but also of the Fathers of the true Churche Yea but now saieth he I adde my exception and say therfore some sentence not standing vpon voluntarie collection but either in plaine wordes or necessarie conclusion For there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessarie collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Againe Pur. 452. All truth may be proued by Scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessarie conclusion which is all one And againe Pur. 189. There is * For example your ovvne heresie no heresie so absurd which Satā putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of words in so many Bookes of the holy scriptures that by peruerse wittes may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods trueth and all articles of our beliefe are plainely taught in the Scripture either by manifest wordes or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtiltie of Satan or his instrumentes may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betweene heresie and truth when they both appeale to the authoritie of Scripture Which difference as it may be found in al heresies so in none more notably then in this error of Purgatory Consider what texts of holy Scripture are alleaged * against it rather for it you shall see they can not bring one out of which any necessary argument may be framed to proue their cause or which hath not by learned interpretors of the olde time
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
ignorance and otherwise do liue in good works especially his welbeloued seruantes also praying for them Yet to damne such also because they be out of the Church is congruous to his iustice Yea for God to saue al the world is cōdigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because that it is condigne to their owne merites Thus while you went about to stayne Gods Church in vaine it is fallen out only by the way that you your selues are Messalians for denying the grace of the Sacraments Pelagians for denying the necessitie of Baptisme and Manichees for denying Frée-will This is all that you haue gayned 39 In confessed Heretikes onely Motiue 46 When we make the Protestantes to confesse as in the last Demaund that the Primitiue Church noted certaine to be Heretikes for holding their doctrine they set themselues against the Primitiue Church also such is their obstinacie say that those persons were not Heretikes therein We therefore not leauing them so if it be possible any way to open their eyes or at lest the eyes of the poore deceiued people do shew them as in this next Demaund that the same persons were Heretiks in other poynts also so playnly that we make them to confesse that also And neither yet will their hard stonie hartes relent Ar. 44. If Aerius had not bene an Arrian saith Fulk his opinion against praying for the dead could not haue made him an heretike though both Epiphanius of the Gréeke Church and Augustinus of the Latin Church do so register him Then what do we more We aske them Pur. 421. Why God openeth these mysteries alwayes and onely to suche as you your selues saith D. Allen to them can not deny to be Heretikes and not to Athanasius Epiphanius Augustinus or some other blessed men of that time but contrariwise leaueth these his elect and doctors of his Church in ignorance yea and with pertinacie condemning those true mysteries for soule Heresies and hath no body in the meane time to be their reformers but such as are infamous and of no credite by reason of abominable confessed heresies And do they yet relent No I warrant you Such a yoke it is to be once wedded to heresie And yet they haue no answere herevnto that may satisfy any man of reason as now we shal sée For thus saith Fulke vnto it Pur. 409.422.424 Ar. 44. What if any Heretike hath affirmed some thing that is true Is trueth worse in an Heretikes mouth The diuels them selues confessed Christ As though it were agréed that it was trueth which those Heretikes affirmed as it was agréed that he was Christ whom those diuels confessed No syr that is the question But if the diuels had said one thing and the Apostles the contrarie which then were like to haue bene the trueth For so the Catholike Fathers saide with vs and the Arrians said with you which therefore is like to be the truth You say truth hath testimonie of Gods word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the diuell it is all one Mary in déede he that would defende the diuell saying agaynst the Apostles affirming that he can bring Gods word must néedes haue audience though he put vs to our trumps So you defending Aerius the Arrian Heretike against the Catholike fathers bringing Scripture do trouble vs forsooth as the reader hath séene here in the 8. chapter where I haue answered al your Scriptures as all must nedes be answerable that is brought against truth and so they find which reade our writings But because that way to reade all is long we tel such as would not make so great a iorney that they may be sure without more trauell that not to be of God the reuealer of all trueth which Heretikes held against the Catholiks as also that which the diuels might hold against the Apostles And the more because we reade that Christ and his Apostles cōmaunded the diuell to silence Luc. 4. Act. 16. when also he confessed trueth for proceeding out of his lying mouth it might as Fulke saith wel the sooner be discredited Whereas in our case by the saying of the Protestantes he commaunded the diuell and his Heretikes to teach the trueth and the Fathers to silence or rather not to silence but suffering them to resiste the trueth all that they could Pu. 422.421 But he can aunswere one question with another Why was it first reueiled sayth he to the Arrians in Councell that the Article of Christes discent into hell was meete to be added to the Crede which was not reueiled to so many godly men as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Answere me if you can He speaketh so of this matter without any quoting of Author as if it were a thing notoriously knowen Belyke it is receiued among them who would put it out of the Crede againe as a principle of their Aristotle and I who reade not their bookes but with leaue and for necessitie am not so well acquainted in their mysteries Perhaps a friends ghesse of mine is true that they say so because they find it in some Arrian Crede that is recorded in the Ecclesiasticall Storie Theo. li. 2. cap. 21. For it is found in déede in Theodorete that the false Nicene Arrian Synode saide in their newe Crede Crucified dead and buried descended into hell whom hell it selfe did tremble at According to the ydle or rather hypocriticall diligence of Heretikes who vse in Credes or confessions of their false doctrines to infarse some nedeles truethes Whereas the Catholike Nicene Councell thought it ynough in their Crede to repeate and explicate onely those Articles of the Apostles common Crede of which Articles Heretiks had as then made question Is not this then a substantiall cause to say that it was firste reuealed to the Arrians to put it in the Créede whereas it was before in the Apostles Créede Though also if it were true that the Arrians did first put it into the Créede what is that to our case They had not the Catholikes in that against them yea it was a common Article of the Catholikes faith The Articles of the Arrian Aerius were not such As also the Article agaynst Rebaptization which Article some Heretikes perhaps helde right when S. Cyprian and some other Catholike Bishoppes were deceyued in it But yet the Pope with the rest of Christendome helde it as they had it of the Apostles What is this to your Articles which onely olde wicked Heretikes did holde we saye against all Catholikes They were fitte Articles for Heretikes at all times but neuer for Catholikes as at this time also for Anabaptistes Seruetians or Arrians Suenkfeldians Pur. 421. all the others that you count Heretikes as well as we doe sayth D. Allen because they are their inheritance as well as yours descending from your common father Luther But for that wound also you haue a plaister if not to heale it
doe erre by their authoritie and the authoritie of their Successors after them to this time no greater authoritie in the meane time clearely ruling ouer the case to the contrarie parte but rather the more it is scanned the more continully it appeareth that their part is still to bée followed and the contrarie parte still to be condemned and accursed ¶ The fourth Chapter That he chargeth the saide Primitiue true Church with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. HEre I haue to present him with an other reason why he shoulde graunt vnto vs the true Churche rather then to the olde Fathers for so muche as he will confesse vs to bée frée from diuers errors that he chargeth them withall most of them also being so great and so grosse that none of the errors that he imputeth to vs can be thought comparable by the iudgement of any man that is any whitte indifferent and not altogether blinded with an huge beame of partialitie And let the Reader lay this to the last Chapter before and conferre all diligently together That he confesseth I say that there may bée a Companie which erreth not onely some principall members but also the whole bodye of it and which erreth obstinately and moreouer whiche erreth the grossest errors that can bée and them in no small number and yet the same companie maye bée the true Churche and in déede also hath bene the true Churche so that no péece of this nor all this together will serue him him I saye to proue our companie not to bée the true Churche And then afterwarde let it bée considered what better or what other stuffe he hath to proue the same and if he haue any suche eyther better or other then this refuse a Gods name to bée of our Churche and séeke after hym thy saluation where else thou canst finde it Well then to come to those other errors that were as he sayth the Primitiue Churches and are not ours and to beginne at the toppe Ar. 35. D. Allen requireth the Protestantes to declare when the true Church decayed To this I answere saith Fulke First Euen in the Apostles time there arose manye heresies whiche did not a little trouble the Churche Secondlye But immediately after the Apostles time while the Fathers of the Churche were earnestly occupied in resisting of horrible heresies by the crafte of Satan some errors and abuses crepte into the true Churche of Christ which at the first because they were small and men occupyed in greater matters were eyther not espyed or not regarded And howe declareth he this Iustinus Martyr was in this error that the Angells lusted after women and therefore were turned into diuells What more Irenaeus affirmeth that our Sauiour Christ lyued here .50 yeares And what more Also both he and Papias the Disciple of S. Iohn helde this error that Christ shoulde raigne a thousande yeares after the Resurrection here in fleshe And what of all this Whereby it is manifest seeyng these auncient Fathers and pillers of the Church were thus stained with errors that the Church in their time could not be free from the same Againe It seemeth also that the Churche in Iustinus his time was in some error about Second mariages and diuorcementes After all whiche he concludeth in the end And so it is euident that the true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time Where the diligent Reader marketh that he vseth decaying and erring indifferently one for the other As for that which he sayeth there of abuses and corruptions entered into the Church of Christ as a preparatiue to the Religion of the Papistes it belonged to the last Chapter and therefore I noted it there Supra pag. And so much of the Apostles time and also of the time immediatly after the Apostles Let vs procéede and come downe lower Cyprians time was such a time saith he as Cyprian and all the Byshops of Africa decreed in Councell Pur. 287. that those which were Baptized by heretikes shoulde be Baptized againe And therefore it was no such time but that he and all his fellowes might and did erre in some opinions contrarie to the trueth of Gods worde And lower agayne Vnder the Emperours Ar. 15. Constantius Constans and Valence the true Churche was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius what time also Liberius Byshop of Rome was infected with the same heresie Straight after that time did Sainct Hierome florishe whom amongest others in the seconde Chapter he confessed to bée a member of the true Churche And him he chargeth not onely Supra pag. as I alleaged in the last Chapter that he was almost fallen into the heresie of Tertullian in condemning Second mariages Pur. 419. Ar. 46. But also thus in an other place Consider what perilous assertions these be that the Lambe is euery where and that the Martyrs are euerye where this is to destroye the humanitie of Christ and to geue diuinitie vnto the Martyrs I doubte not but Sainct Ieronym if he had quietly considered these absurdities He lacked but such a monitor woulde haue reuoked them as erroneous and hereticall but whyle he rather followed affection then iudgement you may see howe he was deceaued At the same time was the thirde Councell of Carthage and Sainct Augustine one of the Byshops thereof Ar. 89. It he chargeth thus The Councell of Carthage the third Cap. 23. determined that all prayers at the Altar should be directed onely to the Father and not to the Sonne or the holy Ghost Whether this be an error to define That it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost let euery man iudge And to put more weight to this his accusation he addeth But you will except that this was a prouinciall Synode and not a Generall Councell But I answere you it hath the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in the sixte generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo But of all others most insolently he insulteth and triumpheth against the auncient Church for ministring the blessed Sacramēt to Infants Ar. 87. I will proue vnto you saith he that the Church of Rome hath falsly interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therfore by that which she hath done it can not be doubted but that she may do it One then for example S. Augustine was in this error that he thought Infants must receiue the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ vnder payne of damnation and was deceiued by false interpretation of this Scripture Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man drinke his bloud c. Ioh. 6. This error and false interpretation he affimeth to be common to all the Westerne Church and to Pope Innocent him selfe Contra duas Epist Pelag. ad Bonifacium li. 2. cap. 4. contra Iulianum li. 1. cap. 2. Againe in an other place where D. Allen admonished his Reader saying Pose M.
time was no such time but that he and al his felowes though they held the foundation of Christ yet might did erre in some opinions contrary to the truth of Gods word And agayne Cyprian and al the Bishops of Aphrica were notwithstanding their error of Heretiks baptisme to be no baptisme in the vnity of the church In all these places he alludeth although he neuer expresse it to S. Pauls saying 1. Cor. 3. that The foundation is Iesus Christ and if any man buyld vpon this foundation he shal be saued yea also though his buylding or worke be wood or straw such to witte as will wast away in the day of fire Let vs conferre with it this saying Matt. 7. He buildeth vpon the Rocke which heareth or beléeueth my sayings Aug. in Ps 103. cor 3. de fide op ca. 16. Gala. 5. and worketh them S. Augustine expoundeth it most aptly in very many places when he saith that Christ to be in the foundation is that he haue the principall place in our heart and nothing at all be preferred before him Which is done if he dwel in our hearts by a working faith for That fayth which by loue worketh being layde in the foundation suffereth none to perish So that if we be either out of faith or out of charitie then be we without this sauing foundation As are all they that eyther beléeue any one heresie or breake any one commaundement by any mortall sinne For so saith S. Paule expresly of Heresies with all other works of the flesh Gala. 5. That they which do such thinges shall not inherite the kingdome of God For which purpose agayne thrée places are diligently to be conferred in all which the first part of the sentence he chaungeth not at all but the other part he varieth thrée wayes 1. Cor. 7. Gala. 5. Gala. 6. geuing vs playnly thereby his meaning In Christ Iesus saith he neither circumcision nor vncircumcision is ought or can do ought but a new man but fayth working by charitie but keeping of Gods commaundementes This is the truth But nowe commeth Fulke with an other exposition which first requireth not workes of charitie or obseruation of the cōmaundements nor secondly also so much as fidem integram inuiolatamque a sound and vncorrupted faith but onely to holde this one article of faith to beleeue in the onely Sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God And if any man erre about other articles and that also so obstinately that he condemneth his aduersaries for heretikes yet he holdeth the foundation and by vertue of it shall be saued notwithstanding and so did S. Augustine and those other Fathers and therefore they were of the true Church and are saued Howe much more warely dealt your maister Peter Martyr vpon this place to the Corinthians who séeing the absurdities hereof Pet. Mar in 1. Cor. thought better to say that the Fathers in the agonie of their death acknowledged their errors Et non raro fit c. It happeneth often saith he that such as in their whole life time had not the gift to thinke a right of Religion haue it often geuen them at the last houre to vnderstand in the agonie of death that the superstitions and abuses to which afore they had yealded them selues were both vaine and also hurtfull Which thing I would not doubt to haue happened to Bernard Frauncise Dominike and many of the auncient Fathers because liuing in the foundation that is in Christ although they builded many abuses and very many superstitions yet they might be saued howbeit through fire what time at the last houre they wrestled against death and the terrors of their sinnes and in that wrastling acknowledged the vanitie of their fansies Thus you sée how they are troubled to saue them whom no lesse then vs they should but dare not to condemne and while they labour so to do they do it specially Fulke by such meanes as no lesse serueth to saue vs. For who knoweth not that we beléeue in the onely Sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God and that therefore we looke not to be saued by our owne works that is to say which we did without him as when we were in Paganisme or in Iudaisme or in Caluinisme and any other heresie or finally in any mortall sinne but onely by his workes that is by his Sacraments that of his great mercy he hath instituted for vs the good déeds that of his great mercy he hath created in vs in Christ Iesus euen as S. Paule saith Tit. 3. Not for any works of righteousnes that we did before Baptism quae fecimus nos but for his mercy he hath saued vs by Baptisme per lanacrum generationis that thou maist sée his mercy and his sacrament stande well together Eph. 2. And againe for wee be his new creature created in Christ Iesus in good workes And therefore afore we were in Christ Iesus we had no works to saue vs but they are our workes only in Christ Iesus that saue vs. For so the same S. Paule teacheth vs as I said afore what it is that in Christ Iesus is of power to saue vs to wit our new creation in these good workes our faith working by charitie our kéeping of Gods commaundementes so that againe his mercy in Christ Iesus and his creature or good workes in Christ Iesus stand well together And euen thus did also those old fathers beléeue of the Sacraments of good workes Supra pag. whom he confesseth notwithstanding to haue beléeued in the onely Iesus Christ the onely mercy of God beléeuing likewise the communion of prayers betwixt all that are in Christ Iesus Infra pag. either quick or dead as him selfe likewise confessed of thē in the .3 Supra pag. Chap. And therfore séeing they notwithstanding that are confessed to haue beléeued in the onely sonne the only mercy of God we no lesse for all that our beliefe must be likewise confessed to beléeue the same onely foundation and so consequently to haue likewise the true Churche and saluation be the impudent audacitie of Fulke neuer so great to say that we build vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Euen as his friendes and masters be altogether as lustie with the Fathers them selues Flaccus Illyric in Claue Scripturae parte i. in praef one of them saying of S. Hierome by name that he was Et morbi humani medici Christi ignarus ignorant both of mans disease and of Christ the Phisitian Therefore let him wrangle as much as he will this is the plaine case euery indifferent man doth sée all like both in vs and in the Fathers about his supposed foundation if they helde it we hold it if we holde it not Infra
wel be more remisse therin though yet she kepeth those Ceremonies still Aug. ep 86 Reade S. Augustine ad Casulanum of those matters where also besides this you shall finde also another generall reason according to the diuine wisdome of that most Ecclesiastical doctor to wit that it sufficeth if the Church haue vnitie of faith as it were intus in membris inwardly in her limmes and that she wel may withall haue diuersitie of obseruations as it were varietatem in veste varietie in her queenely garment according to the Psalme Psal 44. Which he speaketh for diuersitie of Ceremonies in sundry places at one time but it serueth for the like diuersitie in one place at sundry times as it is euident As for your boldnes with the Fathers for their Liturgies pronouncing that vndoubtedly they chaunged the auncient truth into their owne lately receiued errors Proc. apud Claud. de Sainctes praef in Liturg. or else why were they not content with the olde forme Proclus Bishop of Constantinople about a thousand yeres agoe answereth your Why telleth you that S. Basill and S. Chrysostome did no more but abridge the Liturgie of S. Iames the Apostle which thrée Liturgies the Councell in Trullo also doth acknowledge and that vpon iuste cause Can. 32. But that with errors they corrupted eyther it or any other forme which was vsed before them if any man be so farre gone so to thinke vpon your light worde for all the most renowmed credite of those Fathers let the studious of truth notwithstanding take the paynes to conferre those Liturgies and they shall easily be able of their owne inspection to controll you Supra pag. 21. as I also before in the third Chapter by playne demonstration disproued you for the same and namely in the very same article that forced you to this absurde and shameles shift v. Of Sacrifice and for the dead Now are we come to your next accusation of the auncient Church concerning Sacrifice concerning the dead The name of Sacrifice Pur. 419. which they coÌ„monly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles so you say but you proue it not You might as well say that they or the Apostles had it of the Gentiles to name that Sacrifice which Christ offered vpon the Crosse No syr they named it so because it was so and therfore Christ also said not This is I that was borne of the virgine though that were true but This is my body vpon the one Matt. 26. and This is my bloud vpon the other The Apostle also for the same cause saying of him that commeth therevnto vnworthily not that he is guyltie of Christ though that be true 1. Cor. 11. but that he is guyltie of his body and of his bloud because it is such a celebration of his death Wherevpon if you knew what is the sacrificing of a liue thing you should sée that how properly he was sacrificed on the Crosse in an open maner euen as properly he is sacrificed here in a mysticall maner The same Apostle therefore agayne saying that we haue an a Heb. 13. Altar to eate of which place your blindnesse b Pur. 45â— alleageth against this Sacrifice and also calling it c 1. Cor. 10 The table of our Lorde in that forme of speache as he calleth c 1. Cor. 10 The table of the diuels the sacrifice of the Gentiles and the Leuiticall sacrifices likewise the Leuiticall c 1. Cor. 10 Altar Yet you can not find d Pur. 200 289. one word nor one syllable in the Scripture of any Sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last Supper Whereof we shall say more Cap. 10. Dem. 24. Purgatorie But to go forwarde with you to your accusation first of Purgatorie and afterward of Purgatorie fire To proue that Purgatory came of the Philosophers as al most notable heresies did Pur. 416. Tertul. de anima cap 31.32 you alleage out of Tertullian De anima that all Philosophers which graunted the soules immortalitie assigned three places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying This argument proueth as well that heauen and hell and the Immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the Philosophers Howbeit also to report the truth there is no word of any third place of purifying but onely that such Philosophers made two sortes of Receptacles to wit Supernas mansiones for Philosophers soules onely and Inferos for all other soules and that about the first they did varie for Plato placed it in aethere Aerius in aëre the Stoikes circa lunam This is all Againe you proue out of Irenéeus that Purgatorie came of Carpocrates the Heretike Iren. li. 1. cap. 24. because he inuented a kinde of Purgatorie and proued it out of that place of S. Mathew Thou shalt not come forth vntil thou hast payd the vttermost farthing Mat. 5. euen as the Papistes do By this argument againe you will winne much honestie Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. Haer. 27. Tertul. de anima c. 17 Ireneus and after him Epiphanius as also Tertullian in your owne booke De anima do write that the Carpocratians helde that a man must wallow in aâ—l the filthe of sinne that is in this world before he can come to life euerlasting and therefore if he haue missed any sinne his soule is reuersed into a body and so againe and againe vntill he haue fulfilled all And for this purpose Iesus they say vsed this Parable of agreeing with the aduersarie in the way Matt. 5. c. Corpus enim dicunt esse carcerem c. For that prison they say is the body and that which he saith Thou shalt not go out thence vntill thou hast payed the last farthing they interprete as if the soule should be turned ouer by certayne Angels from body to body semper quoadvsque in omni omnino operatione quae in mundo est fiat Continually euen vntill it haue bene in all and euery acte of this world vt nihil amplius relinquatur saith Epiphanius ad nefarium quicquam faciendum so that nothing remayne that is abhominable but it is fulfilled Purgatorie fire Pur. 419.418 You goe forward and say that they tooke Purgatorie fire of the Origenistes and the name of Purgatorie of certayne Mediators who about S. Augustines time would accorde Origens error with the erroneous practise of the church For it was Origen that brought in the fire also and that he would buylde as the Papists do See here ca. xij of Christes damnation temporall according to Caluine and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. This you say but you proue it not Origens error was that hell fire is not an euerlasting fire but onely a temporall fire which should in time purge not onely them that had ended their liues in most horrible sinnes but also the diuels
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures onely out of the Scriptures without the commentaries of the Doctors but not also I trow without the Commentaries of Caluine and such like companions thus he saith Pur. 407. And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteined in the holy Scriptures haue certaine comfort of saluation Pur. 285. And againe to the same purpose Surely as the Sunne is not obscured with the dust that a Cock casteth vp when he scrapeth on the dunghill The Doctors vvritings a dunghill no more is the Sonne of righteousnesse or the light of his holy worde darkened by all the myste of mens deuises which Allen or his complices can rayse out of the whole heape of superstition and error to deface the glory of his Church The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and therefore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Our doctrine shall one day be tried before God and therefore we make no account how we be iudged by mans day 1. Cor. 4. So properly he vttereth his presumption in the words that the Apostle clene contrarie did speake in excéeding great feare It foloweth Your way is your owne way not the way of the Lord and because you take another way vnto saluation then the onely right waye Iesus Christ therfore by his owne sentence you are al theeues and murderers Hath any séene a man so drunken so blinded with pride Well then in the other place of searching the meaning out of the Scriptures them selues alone and neglecting the receaued Expositors what saieth he Whether the old Doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestāts Pur. 434. I haue answered before we will make no comparison with them Modestly spoken a man would thinke but what followeth Neither will we chalenge the likelihood to vs neither will we leaue it to them I mary hold your owne we pray you And why so For whether soeuer we doe we shall be neuer the more certaine of the trueth You say true for so much as concerneth your selues For in déede no certaintie of trueth but most certaine certaintie of error in your vnderstanding But in what so euer the Doctors doe agrée who so expoundeth the Scripture vnto that shall be euer most certaine of the truth which is ynough though not alwayes certaine of that same very places meaning as in the sixt Chapter I declared more at large Forth now a Gods name Supra cap. 6. par 2. But this will we set downe as a most certaine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same Spirite by which they were written The meaning of some place one may attaine vnto which hath not that Spirit but to vnderstand them alwayes agréeably to the truth can not be without that same Spirit Forth againe What then shall we arrogate the Spirit as proper to vs and denye it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirit and so haue we Hereof ariseth an obiection How then is the Spirit of God contrarie to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges He answereth God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods Spirit yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture Yea Syr Cyprian as he was of Cornelius his Spirit so was he likewise of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè as we tearme it though explicite he were of an other of an erronius iudgemēt and that according to his owne humane spirit and not according to Gods Spirit As at this day likewise and alwayes whensoeuer any Catholike man of ignoraunce erreth expressely yet notwithstanding in effect he is of the trueth with the other Catholikes which erre not because he quietly continueth in vnitie with them nor doth not obstinatly holde his owne error against them Now whether the case be so betwene the olde Doctors and you briefly and manifestly it is declared by this that neither you at this time will be refourmed by them nor they in their time would be refourmed by your forefathers Aerius Iouinianus and such like But now that you haue abrogated the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from Gods spirite both in the Doctors and in your selues say on and tell vs your aduise What then there remayneth but this seconde principle as certayne as the first That the Spirite of God hath a meaning in the Scriptures which is not to be sought out of the Scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but only in the Scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of truth No syr why suppose those men were the Apostles them selues or any other hauing the same spirite of trueth that the Apostles first had but of that ynough before foorth therefore Therefore that the spirite may declare his owne meaning Ar. 86. one place of Scripture must be expounded by an other for the hard places of Scripture must be opened by easie places all other ordinary meanes and helpes of wit learning knowledge of tongs diligence in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and triall And is this way so sure and certayne I mary For who soeuer obserueth this search and triall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certaynly And may he not trust an other which hath so precisely obserued it as for example the Protestantes me thinkes as your selfe or M. Caluine c. but I crie you mercy you meant not them Well then may he not trust the olde Fathers therein A comfortable doctrine for the ignorant forsooth or did not they obserue it diligently No for who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easily be deceiued yea you speake nowe a great worde euen when he thinketh he followeth the authoritie of the Scriptures Which search if the auncient Fathers had alwayes followed they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges as to condemne the Protestantes in Aerius and Vigilantius c. and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined as the doctrine of the Papistes Well then I sée all is in a mans owne diligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the Scriptures conferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe this is your most certen way I must therefore tell you a litle of our diligence therin that you may certifie vs whether it be ynough or no. and the rather because you exhort our master D. Allen and say to him Pur. 9. Trye the rule of the Protestantes and search the worde of God in the holy Scriptures and then vndoubtedly you shall finde the trueth and the Church also that is the pillar of trueth And againe Ar. 62. Who haue the trueth you must search in the
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
all men know that those also of your owne side in Fraunce Flaunders c. in their publike Edictes call vs Catholikes and them selues by other names Now supposing that it is our name yet you haue a shift saying Ar. 67. that we boast and trust onely in these names Catholike and Church without the thinges them selues as the wicked Iewes did crying The Temple of the Lorde when they had nothing lesse then the Temple of the Lorde Iere. 7. Mat. 21. but rather a denne of theeues Our Lord both in the Prophet and in the Gospell acknowledgeth it to be his Temple although they in it were théeues and wicked persons So is ours his Catholike Church although some of vs were so wicked as you make vs. Howbeit the wicked both then and now trusting onely in the Temple and in the Church and not amending their liues deceiue them selues how much more they that trust in the cōuenticles of Heretikes which are the Synagogues of Satan On the other side supposing that it is not your name you haue also your shift saying Ar. 68. If you haue no greater argument to condemne vs thē that we are not called The Catholike Church then you can no more condemne vs then Christ and his Apostles that were not onely not called the true Church but also were called Heretikes and deceiuers by the Iewes which were as rightly called Gods people as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church are called the Christian world Nay bate me an ace of that I pray you vnlesse you can likewise shew by predictions of the Prophets and correspondence of Luther the reprobation of the Christian world in these dayes as we all sée the reprobation of the people of God the Iewes in those dayes Besides that you haue great reason forsooth to require that the Iewes should haue vsed those names which they neuer heard of or els you not to be tryed now by them after their institution receiuing and vniuersall vsing And yet againe you will néedes haue the name from vs. Ar. 95. For why might not our Church when it was most hidden you say be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was conteined in the narrow bondes of Iury For you say it is not called Catholike because it should be euery where for that it neuer was nor neuer shal be But because that wheresoeuer it be in partes it is one body of Christ I reade of many old Heretikes that gaue many interpretations of that name to draw it to them selues but you are the first to my knowledge that said because it is vna therefore it is called Catholica The old fathers in their Créede were of another meaning when they said distinctly I beleue One Holy Catholike and Apostolike that is Romane Church No Sir S. Augustine telleth you another interpretation Aug. de vn Eccl. ca. 2. Ecclesia vtique vna est quam maiores nostri Catholicam nominarunt vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est Secundum totum enim cath olun Grecè dicitur There is no doubt but onely one Church euen that same which our Auncetors named Catholica to declare by the very name it selfe that she is ouer all to wit beginning at Hierusalem and from thence growing ouer all Nations continually till the ende of the world when hauing taken in the fulnesse of Nations she shall be wholly assumpted in glorie And therefore your Church neither when it was hidden as you imagine neither now that it is open as we all sée God hide it againe can be called Catholike Au. Callat 3. diei nu 2. post Collat c. 27.28 Epist 48. because as S. Augustine so often resoneth against the Donatistes you do not communicate with totius Orbis Ecclesia the Church of the whole world but haue seperated your selues from it from the Church I say which beganne in Iurie and groweth on to this day and therefore as well then in the beginning as any time after was the same and had the same name as the trée of musterdséede is the trée of musterdséede whether it be growen litle or mikle Ar. 95. Pur. 14. But what a thing is this that you speake with the spirite of the Donatist and say The Popish Church is not in euery part of the world For Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Many countreys are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish Church It is iumpe the argument of Cresconius Aug. cōtra Cresc li. 3. ca. 63. Argumentaris quod ideo nobis non totus Orbis communicet c. Thou makest this argument saith S. Augustine that therefore the whole world doth not communicate with vs because as yet either many men there are of the Barbarous Nations which haue not yet beleued in Christ or many Heresies vnder the name of Christ abhorring from the communion of our felowship The full answere therof you may reade ther in S. Augustine Although I alleage almost nothing but onely answere my length groweth tedious to my selfe and I feare to the Reader also not for any substance of your argumentes but for the multitude of your trifles to say the least and best of them As againe wher you say like non plus that Most Papistes will confesse Ar. 69. that many thinges in their Church haue neede of reformation as not being vniuersally perfect and that it is halting in many thinges from the trueth of Gods word neither yet dispersed ouer all the World but conteyned in a corner of Europa and therefore it is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church Is yours then by that rule the Catholike Church As the Iewes care not if none be Christ so that Iesus be not Christ euen so you reason like men that care not if none be the Church so that the Romane be not O miserable People that must haue such Leaders The Church now may vouchsaue to be so spoken of by you when you speake no better here cap. 3. of the same Church also in S. Augustines time But we tell you with the wordes of S. Augustine for we confesse no more then he also doth by you alleaged wher he repeateth the Créede August de Gē ad 〈◊〉 imperfect ca. 1. Constitutam ab illo Matrem Ecclesiam That the Holy Ghost being geuen founded the Church our Mother quae Catholica dicitur her that is called Catholike ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est et in nullo claudicat et per totum orbem diffusa est of this because she is vniuersally perfect and halteth in nothing though the Donatistes and other like Heretikes do neuer so much triumph in that interpretation and is spredde ouer all the World in maner aforesaide Both interpretations agrée to our Mother and we claime them accordingly saith S. Augustine and we whereas the Heretikes
his doctrine But cleane contrarie we finde so playnly for the Pope and for euery poynt of his doctrine that you are faine to put the reuelation of Antichrist and the disparition of the Church here cap. 2. at the very time of our conuersion For which cause also you refuse as we saw before to be tryed by Bedes historie Pur. 333. telling our countreymen that they were better to consider the Acts of the Apostles and saying in another place that you waye not worth a slye that which D. Allen telleth out of Beda For who séeth not there our Religion most playnly and namely for (a) Beda hi. li. 1. ca. 24. Greg. li. 12. epist 15. the Popes authoritie and (b) Beda li. 1. ca. 25.27.29 Masse the very poynts that your Saxon Homilies do impugne But what saye we then to those godly monuments Who can not say and sée that if they were such as you make them they should not all this while be kept vnprinted neither should that which was printed so soone and so diligently haue bene called in againe for why either they conteine not suche matter as you report or they be but of some of these late Wiclesistes making such as by your owne saying are yet common to be seene Disproue my coniecture if it be wrong Ar. 34. and then you shall sée whether I can reply 10. 12. Myracles and Visions Unto these two Demaunds I couple two others of Myracles Motiue 5.6.7 and of Uisions noting that the very Scriptures do by them commend vnto vs Christ him selfe his Apostles with their successors the conuerters of all Nations and their doctrine and saying accordingly that the Miracles and visions of our Church are infinite Pur. 166.331.333 Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca. 24. Et Epist l. 7 ep 30. li. 9. ep 58. mora l. 27. c. 6. in Iob. 36. Damas ser de defūctis Beda hist li. 1. c. 31. l. 3. c. 13. li. 4. c. 21. li. 5. c. 13. alleaged also by the Doctors against the Iewes also Paynims to conuert them to Christ Wheras the Protestants haue not all this while bene able so much as to heale a lame horse though Luther and Caluine as we reade in their liues namely set out in French attempted wonders Now what saith Fulke to this The examples out of Gregorie Damascene Bede you may spare for your frendes there is none of vs that maketh great account of them Againe I force litle what Augustine our Apostle of whose Miracles and holines S. Gregorie also whose Monke he was doth testify as also of his learning Hebrew psalters written with his owne hand which you count a high poynt c. wrought to confirme his errors neither do I waye worth a flye that long tale you tell out of Beda of him that had his cheynes fallen of in Masse time that credulous and superstitious age had many such fayned Myracles Againe You leape but 600. yeres from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I wil not deny but you may haue great store of such stuffe as you haue miracles now in Flaūders of the honest woman of the old Bayly in London Happy it were for you and you were so honest Neither when she was in Heresie was she vnhonest for ought that I haue hard and the Miracle euen as I tell it in my Motiues is most gloriously knowen at Bruxelles You should haue better played the Doctor of Diuinitie if you could haue informed the simple how to know fained Miracles from vnfained and why Miracles vnfained may not be after S. Gregories time aswell as before You will tell them as here cap. 2. that straight after his time was the Reuelation of Antichrist Pur. 336.338 and that these were and are his lying signes and wonders 2. Thes 2. such as errours had alwaies great plentie to establish them withall This is the very bones and marrow of your new Gospell and yet all worm-eaten and rotten For first what Scripture telleth you that after the Reuelation of Antichrist supposing it at that time whiche you wold haue there shal be none but fained Miracles Apoc. 11. telleth me the cleane contrary Secondly why cannot you for the defence of Christ his true Miracles against the Infidels discouer the fainednes of Antichrist his wonders whereas we discouer the lying of all fond Miracles which sundry errours though not in such great plentie haue pretended Thirdly what Scripture telleth you that the time of Antichrists reuelation was so long agoe It telleth me the cleane contrary as I haue most euidently declared cap. 8. pag. 125. Discouering therewithall your grosse falsation of the Scripture to racke it to your blasphemous purpose A wise Reuelation that was yet so many hundred yeres hidden and the partie reueled taken yet for Christ his owne Uicare Consider their absurdnesse No no syr you that be mysticall Antichristes may of fooles be mistaken and thought to be the Ministers of Christ Iesus but your Lord in proper person shall shew himselfe openly ynough and expressely against the onely Christ our Lord and Sauiour Iesus not so much as desiring to be thought of his side Fourthly what say you then at the least to our infinite Miracles afore S. Gregories time as those whiche S. Augustine De Ciuitate Dei li. 22. ca. 8. reherseth to the Paganes wrought by the Relikes of the first Martyr S. Steuen after many particulars euen six Resuscitations of the dead saying generally Si enim Miracula sanitatum vt alia taceam modò velim scribere quae per hunc Martyrem id est gloriosissimum Stephanum facta sunt in colonia Calamensi in Nostra plurimi conficiendi sunt libri For if I would write but the Myracles of healings to omitte the others which by this Martyr that is by the moste glorious S. Stephen haue bene wrought but in two Cities Calama and Hippo where his familiar friende Possidonius and him selfe were Bishoppes very many bookes were to be made What Scripture haue you agaynst these Myracles Either you must remoue the comming of Antichrist so muche higher which a litle thing would make you to do or els you must bring your blind followers some text that testifieth his lying Myracles to go also so long before his comming and the workers of them for him to be the very Martyrs and ministers and true Church of Christ him selfe For els how will you nowe defend that our Church hath no true Myracles Ar. 85. but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders As for your censure of Myracles and Uisions that what soeuer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued Pur. 163.333 that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although an Angell from heauen were the bringer of it as though these were agaynst the trueth of God vttered in the holy Scriptures All this hangeth but vpon the twyned thréede of your owne poore worde though you say neuer
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these
your selfe also will graunt supposing once the text to be as the Councell alleageth it And therfore of your two crimes you must strike out the one to wit false or vnapt interpretation and then all is about the other wherein you say no lesse then foure times that the Councell hath falsified the words of that text And what reason yea what colour haue you for that Is it not in the vulgar Latin translation verbatim as the Councell alleageth it And so is the Councell cleared of that crime also Will you now charge your copie and frame your accusation anew agaynst the translation as differing from the original that is from the Greke But afore you do so take my counsaile with you and be sure first that the Greke is so as you say For some Greke copies Cyr. ◠Ioan. Au. i◠10. tr◠Hila. li. 7. p◠medi◠Amb◠Spi. S◠li. 3. c◠of auncient also had euen as we haue as namely the copie which S. Cyrill being a Greke Doctor expoundeth And who can doubt but the copie also of our most auncient yea and most authentical Translator had euen as he translated Which also the most auncient Latine Doctors as S. Augustine by name S. Ambrose yea and S. Hilarie too did reade iump as we do And the Latines a) vi◠Amb◠Rom◠by reason should in this matter be better witnesses then the Grekes specially séeing such varietie among the Grekes also them selues for as much as the Arrians neuer raigned so nothing like in the Latine Church as they did in the Greke where they were to cancell to chaunge to corrupt what they would And so are you answered fully in euery side nor you only but Ioachim also him selfe if he would go about to make his vantage as you instruct him One text more corrupted by our Church as he sayth and then an ende These be his words Ar. 7◠How corrupt that Latine translation is which they would needes thrust vpon vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such textes as are the most colourable places for the defence of Popishe doctrine I will giue one example for all They alleage the texte 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not agaynst the certaintie of fayth Whereas the Greke hath not He that standeth Stande out of his light that the child may see but He that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Why man looke better in the text 1. Cor. 10. our translation is there not as you charge it but euen as you say the Greke to be Qui se existimat stare videat ne cadat And yet you inferre saying Thus the Popishe Church can not altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lord knoweth This is your goodly substantiall stuffe that you haue against the Popish Church which maye séeme you well amongest the blinde that will néedes follow such blinde guides But vs that haue eyes how can you alienate from it with such geare yea could you more confirme vs in our liking of it then after this sort to bewray your selues that you haue no matter no substance yea no shadow of any thing agaynst it Well in the name of God bethinke your selues in time and humble your selues to your louing Mother this one onely Church of God In olde time it was the true Church as your selfe confesse and therefore if you had liued then you would not haue spurned agaynst it you would haue bene a good childe of it yea also though you thought it to erre How much more considering now you sée that it erred not as you thought it did Proue therefore that your heart meaneth as your tongue speaketh Proue it I say by yéelding to the same Church now which you see nowe no lesse yea muche more cleared from all errors in this answere to eche error that you haue charged it withall Or at leastwise let all other men as they loue their soules forethinke thē selues and ponder wel whether these obiections are like to be admitted of their Iudge the head husband of this Church for good pleas in that generall and most terrible Court day ¶ The seuenth Chapter That he hath no other shift agaynst our manifold Euidences so cleare they be but the name of Only Scripture as well about ech controuersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe And how timerous he maketh vs and how bolde he beareth him selfe herevpon WHat shamefull confessions he hath bene fayne to make agaynst his owne side and for our side it hath here many ways in sundry chapters appeared already But the same will now againe appeare much more clerely if in this Chapter we runne ouer the cōmon Euidences of Christian truth out of which I framed my declaration in my bookes of Motiues and Demaundes and consider that he is fayne to confesse them al to be against him and therfore to take exception agaynst them and say that neither they nor any thing els that can be brought foorth is good euidence in such suites but Scripture alone and such Scripture also as is so playne and manifest for the matter that it can not by any subtiltie be auoyded of the aduersarie For he knoweth well pardy that we bring foorth not other euidences alone but Scripture also with them But the others he séeth to be so playne that there is no remedie vnlesse they be cancelled Mary from our Scriptures he hath an euasion as he thinketh to wrangle and say that they be not playne and euident for vs but so that he can wrest thē to an other meaning The first part How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidences in the controuersies that are betwene vs. j. Against the rule to know heresie c. Well then let vs heare him speake in his owne words and first how he maketh his exception being charged many wayes with the crime of heresie Notable it is both to the confirmation of the Catholike and also to the conuersion of the Heretike to beholde how the more that he fluttereth to get out the more he wrappeth him selfe in the lime Ar. 44. First Authors As in my fourth demaund old heresies demaunde xxxviij Whereas you bragge saith he to D. Allen to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines by their names and the seuerall errors that they taught and the time and yere when they arose agaynst the former receiued truth Except you note vnto vs the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles Euangelistes and Christ him self you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise For we teach nothing but the eternall truth of God Wherfore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the Scripture And immediatly You may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the truth of our
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of