would have people believe me in are in part that very words of the Prophets and holy men of God and so if I drove at that to make people believe those things I drove but at the making them believe the truth of the Scriptures in those sayings and by consequence George indeavoured to drive them from believing them For that there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not and no man that sins not is not mine but Solomons by the spirit of truth I trow Eccles 7.20 1 Kings 8.46 and that no man is perfectly freed from sin in all respects in this life is evident both in Psal 143.2 and in that sicknesses diseases and mortality that came in by sin abides upon all men till death yea and the bodily death that came in by sin abides upon all till the resurrection and so long as any fruit of sin abides upon a man he is not perfectly in all respects freed from sin And to say as he doth that the asserting these things is the making way for my Fathers Kingdome which is upheld by sin as much as I could is evident blasphemy For God being my Father at least by creation as he after though erroniously saies the Disciples were taught so to call him their Father his kingdome is not upheld by sin and if he calls him the Devil he blasphemes or if he judge the Devil to be my Father as no doubt his charity leads him yet then he blasphemes the spirit of truth which breathed in the holy men of God while he makes the asserting their sayings a warring for the Devils kingdome that they be their sayings the places above quoted with Rom. 7.17 20 21 22 23. Jam. 3.2 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. make it evident See Reader how this man discovers his shame and falsehood in al his oppositions his intimations that we denyed him liberty to speak in evidence of his pretended truths is so false that the contrary namely that when he would have been reading and at other times he was called upon again and again to answer he would not for some time yea and sometime he had liberty or took it to talke so much that I could not have liberty to reply upon him and the calling out of the company to him to answer or else own himself proved a deceiver and perhaps sometimes laughing at his folly is that he calls the incivility towards him and clamoring of many at once against him And where he saies that many hearing him with sobernesse was as appeares a grief to me and probably some cause of my publishing of an imperfect relation of the discourse in print to render him and what he calls the truth odious and in my pride to make people believe I had got the victory I avouch in the presence of God that the people hearing him with sobernesse was no grief at all to me or any thing that I see as making against me in the people and if it appears so to him it 's because his eye sees by a false light and the spirit of truth guids him not therein I was very much rejoiced in the Lord to see his helpfulnesse afforded me and Geo. Whit. so made manifest to the people and the people so satisfied for which cause also I published as perfect a relation of the discourse of these points spoken to as possible I could and could I possibly have come by every word or fillable of it I was not afraid nor ashamed to make it publick knowing right well the more perfectly it had been published the more perfectly his folly had been made manifest So that if what I have published in print render him odious it is because his folly and deceit in the dispute was such as deserved it As for what he saies he shall make good against me in the strength of God it will appear to be but a deceived vapour in him by what I shall through Gods assistance say here to his two latter charges which he saies his Treatise makes good namely That my Ministry in which he falsly saies I contend for sin just as the Apostle John did in 1 Joh. 1.8 10. with 2.1 is Anti-Christian and both against the commands promise and works of God and leads to the making both the preaching and praying of Christ and the Saints ineffectual and that 2. I like a chollerick envious man against the truth of God and his people am a forger of lies a false accuser and slanderer and so one of the Dragons army c. By this making good or not making thou maist judge Reader whether the strength of God be with him to make good his former against me by dispute which he could challenge me to in publick either in market place Steeple-house or their meeting house in Lin namely 1. That I am out of the steps of the true Ministers and am in the practice of deceivers an hypocrite and no Minister of Christ and being a parish Priest am guilty of the Priests iniquity in many things against which I have declared And 2. That I uphold a dead formal worship like the world whereunto people are not called by the spirit of truth which is not the true worship and keep people from the life of God and my Ministry formal and corrupt Which his foolish challenge I shall not accept both because his folly and falshood in his boasts of strength to that may be sufficiently discovered in his failers of what he boasts he hath done in his Treatise as also because he therein laies a trap for me to get occation to reproach me for he knowes I sent him word that I should henceforth have no more to do with him but according to the Apostles counsel reject them now should I accept his challenge he and his party would reproach me as they did upon a lesse coloured occasion as a lyer and false Besides these being personal charges and the overflowings of their anger against me because foiled at the dispute and such things as these spoken so much as we thought needful in answer to his former book in which he spits such venemous stuff against me I shall not go about to plead my own cause but leave it to God and rather take good Hezekiahs course when Sennacherib railed upon him that would not have him answered again That he is far from making good his charges in the two other points of it spoken to as he saies in his treatise these things that follow in answer hereunto I hope will fully evince To my proofes for the Scriptures which he only sets down the quotations without saying any thing to them particularly that the Prophets Apostles and holy men of God even after they were Prophets Apostles and holy men came confessing themselves sinners and to have sin He saies I have not made it appear that the Quakers do not so for they own their confessing sin and they have confessed their sins to the Lord as
the same persons with different respects No man living as he is a man from Adam though a believer but as so considered hath sin and sinneth that is doth that that is sinful though it s not imputed to him that believeth because his mind being renewed consents not to it but strives not for it as these men say of us but against it and yet as born of God and according to the spirit or new man the man that believeth and abideth in Christ sins not nor can sin commit or consent to the sin that is and remaineth in his flesh and members and is there to be put off yet and mortified by him He saies Many saw the truth over me Yes over me as my defence and Protection I believe they did and error under my feet But none that saw things rightly could see truth with them nor what they erroneonsly call truth damping or confuting me for then could I not have laughed as he saies or rejoiced over them As for what peace they had in the truth may be conjectured from their want of honesty and truth in all hitherto discovered and I shall not need to grudge them their Peace but wish them more truth that their peace may be therein and not in deceit As for his coming alone into the Congregation that may be and yet it may be truly said his friends came thither with him as the word with signifies a consent with him in their coming also even as though Christ was buried alone before the believers now living were born into the world yet they may be said to be buried with him as those Col. 2.12 My discovery of his deceitful abuse of Psal 103.1 he wisely passes over I hope he is ashamed of it that he neither at his coming then or now hath a word to justifie himselfe therein That I would encourage those in power to persecute him and to cause the outward man to suffer followes not from my saying that they namely those of them amongst us where he hath been proved a Deceiver should do well not to suffer him to speak his pretended words from the Lord except he recant his errors no more than our Saviour encouraged the Church of Thyatyra to persecute Jezebel in reproving the Angel thereof for suffering her to teach to seduce the people Rev. 2.20 and in such waies as he ought not to have suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce in the like way persons in power hinder G. W. or any that are proved to be deceivers without persecution of their bodies except that was persecution Christ approved no more doth it follow that we are such by our own confession as have not the Seal of God upon our foreheads because we say they the Quakers are a heavy judgement of God to us in this Nation and are like the Locusts out of the bottomlesse Pit for it is not said that the Locusts were a judgement or tryal to none that had the Seal of God in their foreheads but that they should not hurt them And I trow the house of God is not hurt by the judgement of God that begins there nor are we hurt by the Quakers though they be troublesome yet by occasion of that trouble blessed be the Lord we have got good they being made as means to provoke as to exercise our selves more to look to God and by contending for his truth against them to grow more clear and confident therein As for his boasts of their borders inlarged See what is said of the false Prophets many shall follow their pernitious waies 2 Pet. 2.2 All they in Asia turned away from Paul 2 Tim. 1.15 Thy were never the better for that not the multitude of followers but the truth of the Doctrine is to be regarded But above all Reader see and admire that a man should be so infatuated or blinded with malice as this G. W. appears to be in his cavilling against the words of the Holy Ghost quoted by me from Psal 63 10. Which he repeats as my words thus I. H. sayth The King Christ shall rejoice in God every one that sweareth by him shall glory c. To which he saies If every one that swears by Christ shall glory then must the drunkards and Lyars and all such prophane persons as swear by him glory And so this Doctrine mark this doctrine which is the Doctrine of the Scripture and only quoted by me with an explication of the word swear too according to the languag of the new Testament for I said every one that sweareth or confesseth which he wilfully â—â—â—â—…ed This Doctrine saies he tends to the encouraging of drunkards and prophane persons in swearing which is against the doctrine of Christ which is against the Oathes and swearing which was under the Law c. What may we think of such a pittiful man as this that shames not thus to revile the Scripture sayings What would he not have those words Printed or read would he take away those Scriptures for fear the Prophane should abuse them Nay ought they not to be taken away as I have heard it said of some of them that they reject the Bible and say it 's good for nothing or fit to be burnt or the like if the Doctrine contained in the Psalmes and Prophets tend to incourage drunkards and Prophane persons in their swearing and be contrary to the Doctrine of Christ If this be not a desperate deceiver that durst thus revile and blasphene the very words of Scripture and a man bitterly malitious that the better to colour over his charge of me therein witholds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 my explication of the word swearing by the word confessing as it 's explicated in Rom. 14.11 and Philip. 2.11 with Isa 45.23 and so a man not to be listened to but to be accounted accursed I know not who is I might also note his errors in implying the Disciples were taught by Christ to call God Father as he is Creator and not as born of God and that some thing in the Disciples but not the Disciples themselves called Father but they praying in that received what forgiveness they asked but it seems were not to aske that dayly as they did their bread for when they received what they asked then they had to more sin nor need to pray for forgivenesse And so he implies that before they were born of God or could by the Holy Ghost call Father before the Birth was brought forth in them they might pray for forgivenesse as when our Saviour teacht them to call God Father and yet to pray for forgivenesse A deal of such confused Babylonish stuffe George is full of A gaine in asking Why Christ should teach his to pray that his will may be perfectly done in Earth as it is in Heaven if it be not in this world to be done He implies there is nothing to be prayed for but what is here to be enjoyed in this world and so would exclude the coming of Christ
Truth 's Triumph OVER DECEIT OR A Further DEMONSTRATION that the people called Quakers be Deceivers and such as people ought to accompt accursed in their Doctrines and Principles In VINDICATION of A Former Proof of that Charge made good against them for the sorry shifts and evasions from it and cavils of George Whitehead against it in a pamphet of his called The Quakers no Deceivers Written by John Horne Teacher at Lin-Alhallowes As a further Preservation of people from following any of their pernitious principles but that they might inquire after and more adhear to the truth of the Gospel as delivered in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles in the Holy Scriptures They have made lies their refuge and under falsehood have they hid themselves but the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies and the waters shall over flow the hiding place Isa 28.15 17. But this I know that the Lord is with me because mine enemy doth not tryumph over me Psalm 41.11 LONDON Printed for J. Allen at the Rising-Sun in St. Paul's Church-yard 1660. Truth 's Tryumph over deceit GEorge Whitehead hath made another scrible in pretended answer to my book intituled The Quakers proved Deceivers c. In which he doth but more manifest his folly and falshood as the more he scribles the more it will yet appear to such as are not blinded with ignorance or errour I shall God assisting shew the reader briefly what pittifull stuff he hath in some brief observations That in his title he calls my charge unjust and my book a pamphlet and the people I preach to Mooreans or Vniversalists are but some overflowings of the Gall of bitternesse that he is possest with as also his calling my relation a pretended and imperfect relation and saying that I falsly boast that I made good the charge and of a pretended victory where I had none which I leave to the judgement of the Lord and of the auditory that heard our discourse though for the perfection and truth of my relation George's inability to correct or contradict it in any thing of moment in what he hath wrote against it may passe with sober men that hard us not for a pretty good proof or demonstration And as for his charging me with false doctrine lyings slanders and perverting of the truth I may give him leave in such termes to vent his passion and never envie him for it seeing God hath put him to rebuke before me and the truth notwithstanding his serpent-like winding about to hide his deceits before his deluded followers tryumps over and against his errors His preamble begins with truths wrongly applyed by him to his deceits the Serpent and his subtilty which appeares against the seed of God and against the power and wisdom of God is manifest in him and his party and the torment and vexation which the striving against the truth brings and the confusion and darknesse that overwhelmes them that so do is evident enough to them that can see in this envious and imbittered people who hiss like Serpents out of their holes when the truth disturbs them and laies them open How empty foolish a vapour it is that he saies the Lord was with him and by his strength they were made able to tread upon their enemies All that were at the dispute and remember how pitifully he was confounded so that he would needs for want of any reasonable answer have left the argument and fallen to read on our book to begin some charge against us instead of defending himself against my charge may easily discern I blesse the Lord I was in my spirit clearly above his deceits and my mouth was enlarged over him and the people generally received satisfaction against him His charging me with rage and madnesse against the truth because I was courageous for it against his deceits and was so far from raging that I rejoiced against him nothing moves me I looke for an hundred worse things from Satan than such an aspertion But whereas he saith he several times sent to me to come forth in publick before he could get me take the truth of the thing that thou maist Reader see his deecit herein When George Fox challenged me to make good my charge he bad me appoint time and place I appointed mine own house or Mr. Iohnsons against which he excepted not but only that time he said he could not Therefore when George Whitehead sent to me to meet him to do it either in the Market place or Steeple-house or Steeple-house-yard or streets I returned him answer what George Fox and I had agreed on as to that matter and yet that if they would procure the steeple-house I would meet him there this he refused and then would have me meet him at Isbel Barnards which I told his friend I should not refuse if my friends judged it convenient or because he had upbraided me with my God I was not unwilling to meete him in the market place would my friends thither accompany me and the Magistrates approve it upon advice with my friends they were not willing I should go to Isbel Barnards or the Mraket-place Then I sent him word that if he and his friends would joine with me and mine in repairing the harmes might by occasion of the meeting in the steeple-house be done to the seats I would joine with them in procuring it But this also though one of his own party judged it but reasonable he refused because he would not put his party upon any charge then he desired me to nominate some indifferent private house seeing he judged mine not indifferent and we judged Isbel Bernards as little or lesse indifferent and I did procure Mr. Philips his where we should have met had his party upon viewing of it liked it but the Church-warden in the mean while without whose concent I would not make bold with the Church or steeple-house or put either my friends or the parish upon the charge of repaires they having been put to charge before at our former meeting by their occasion sending me word that we might in the Chancel so soon as we had that liberty granted I sent G. W. word of it and accordingly there we met Now judge Reader whether of us were most guilty of backwardnesse to meete in the publick so as was convenient seeing I offered him so reasonable even in the judgement of some of his own party and he refused it but this is no new thing to hide themselves and intimately accuse others in deceit He saies The chief thing I drove at was to make people believe that there is no man living upon earth that sinneth not or can be perfectly freed from sin in this life and that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them so long as they lived which though it 's not altogether true because the main thing I drove at was not that but to prove the Quakers deceivers Yet those things he saies I drove at and
That men in whom sin is are not or cannot be while such compleat in Christ 20. That to have sin in men and to be in those sins is all one 21. That the 63. Psalm verse 11. tends to encourage Drunkards and Prophane persons in swearing which is contrary to the Doctrine of Christ These and such like be his intimations as is before more fully shewed The Lord deliver the Reader from such deceits and make the folly of these men yet more evident that poor Souls may not be snared by them I shall adde no more to G. W. but leave him to the Lords convincement and silencing Who when he sets home his reproâ—… to any of them will do it to such purpose as to stop their clamorous cavils which they cease not to invent and raise up against us though against our clearest confutations of them because they be absurd and unreasonable men The Lord exalt his Name and truth to the rebuke and silence of their errors against him Queries sent by Richard Hubberthorne to us with our answer to them And the like number of Queries sent by I. H. to Richard Hubberthorne to be answered plainly by him Richard Hubberthorne sent these ensuing Queries to us thus entituled These few Queries grounded upon the Scriptures concerning the resurrection of the body of Christ I send unto you to Answer in the form of sound words according to your Faith in the same 1 SEeing the Scripture saith no man Ascended up to Heaven but he that came down from Heaven even the Son of man which is in Heaven with what body was the Son of man then in heaven when the man Christ Jesus was upon the Earth in that boy which was crucified at Jerusalem 2. And when Christ was raised from the dead whither might any 〈…〉 before he was Ascended to the Father seeing he said unto Mary touch me not for I am not yet Ascended to my Father but go to my brethren and tell them I Aseend to my Father and your Father to my God and your God Joh. 20.17 3. And whether at the same time did not the same Mary touch him seeing that in Mat. 28.9 it is said she met Jesus saying All hail and held him by the feet and worshiped him 4. Whether the two men that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel as in Luke 24.4 which they both saw as men and heard them speak had two real individual distinct bodies as the bodies of men and seeing that those two men and also Jesus is said all to appear in white Linnen or shining apparrel whether had they all bodies alike of flesh and bones which a Spirit hath not as Luk. 24.39 or they only had such bodies as a Spirit hath without flesh and bones 5. And how did the women distinguish which was Christ whether by his bodily appearance not to be like the other or by the power of his voice seeing they all was both seen and heard and Mary when she first saw him knew him not till he first spake to her John 20.16 and seeing that both the Angels and Christ spake the same words to Mary whereby did she distinguish 6. Again seeing the Scripture saith that the same women at the same time found not the body of Christ but returned and said they had seen a vision of Angels which said that he was alive as Luke 24. Ch. at the 23. whether was it only a vision of Angels seen invisible or it was visible bodies or persons of men or visible voices 7. And seeing the Scripture saith in Mat. 28.7 That they should go in Gallilee and there should see him whether did the eleven Disciples first see him at Gallilee or at Jerusalem seeing that Luke saith Luke 24. that the same day in which he did arise he appeared in the midst of them where the eleven were met together in Jerusalem ver 33. and John 20.19 it is said the same day at evening being the first day of the week when the doors were shut Jesus stood in the midst of them here is the eleven mentioned to be met together and yet it is said that Thomas was not among them John 20.24 And after the eight daies in which he appeared to them again Whether in all this time had he Assended to his Father and their Father to his God and their God 8. And whether is not all these things mystery and cannot be seen nor known nor understood as they are but as the Spirit doth open and reveal them Richard Hubberthorne These for John Horne and Thomas More to answer Note here Reader 1. That the form of sound words is according to our Faith in the Resurrection of Christ So the Title perfixed by him implies and that is rightly implyed though hapily more than he intended therein he spake truth like as Caiaphas did 2. That they are not of our Faith and so not of a sound faith about the Resurection of the body of Christ 3. That he saies these Queries be concerning the Resurrection of the body of Christ And yet the first speaks of what Christ said while he was not yet put to death or risen from it And in all the rest he implies his curiosity and evil designe to render the Scriptures but a cunningly devised fable or Allegory having no real truth in them in what they speak about that Resurrection and to that he believes neither it nor them according to their Testimony concerning it but endevours to render them not to be regarded or believed according to their sayings as being full of contradictions and absurdities that so people might wave them and learn the mystery from the Quakers Such wickednesse is clearly enough to those that have the eyes of their understanding opened touched in those Queries as the eighth more clearly implyeth To these Queres I J. Horne returned this following answer which I also prepared for him and had in readinesse to have sent him upon the receit of his answers to my eight Queries after mentioned which seeing I have not hitherto received from him I have now made publick as followeth 1. To the first I say That the Scripture in John 3.13 Doth not say that Christ was in Heaven in his body then and therefore that Question in what body was the Son of man then in Heaven is not grounded on the Scripture Paul was wrapt up into the third heaven when yet his body was upon earth Men may be in their minds and spirits where their bodies are not as Col. 2.5 much more might Christ who was also God He as God or the eternal Word was then in heaven and in his Spirit ascended up to heaven so as no man else could even when his body was upon the Earth and not in heaven as now it is 2. To the second I say some might touch Christ when he was raised from the dead before he was ascended and taken up in his body into heaven there to be and remain
dost thou rather believe all those things to be only Allegorically spoken 4. And if thou dost believe that that Jesus the very Christ was indeed a real personal man whether dost thou believe that he really and verily and in a real and very body of flesh dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day from the dead and therein after 40 daies conversing by times with his disciples ascended or was taken up into heaven and be those things also only figuratively to be taken 5. And whether dost thou believe that the sufferings or dyings of that man in any such real body of flesh and his rising again in the same body and ascending is truly availeable to the taking away or procuring pardon for any mans sin and obtaining blessing and salvation for men or dost thou thy self believe to be saved from thy sin and from destruction by vertue thereof yea or nay 6. Whether dost thou indeed believe that there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in men and in other visible creatures yea or nay 7. And if neither the bodies of men that die and go to the grave shall ever be raised out of their graves to a sensible life again nor as Geo. Whitehead implies in some questions sent us the souls of the wicked after death shall come out of Hell again to receive any further judgement Whatof the wicked shall be raised up again after their bodily death and judged to eternal punishment as John 5.29 Mat. 25.46 Is it any thing or nothing and if any thing What is it 8. Doth the soul of the wicked at or after the bodily death go to any hell in which they sustain or feel any torment and if so what is the hell they go to and are tormented in I challenge thee to return me if thon darest a plain and direct answer to these queries according to the very truth and belief of thy heart not giving revilings instead of answers but observing 1 Pet. 3.15 John Horne This was sent him April 19. to which I have as yet received no answer from him this fourteenth of May so that I hope his mouth is stopt with them However for any plain positive and sober answer John Horne Richard Hubberthornes Letter in answer to my Queries is thus London 6th day 4th Mon. 1660. John Horne I Have received a paper of Queries from thee by which it is easily known to be thine by thy preface of lies which is thy usual and accustomed manner and marke of the beast in all thy papers thou saiest I am guilty of seven or eight falshoods but dost not mention any of them neither dost answer my paper which proves to the contrary So thou being so often reproved and yet hardens thy heart against it so if thou wilt be filthy thou maist be filthy still and if thou wilt be unconvinced when the truth hath been so plainly and often declared unto thee thou mayst be wicked still Answ As unto thy first query I can clear my self from being a deceiver or false Teacher in all things which I have spoken and can also prove thee to be a false accuser in saying that I said published that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which thing I never said nor published and so thy query is grounded upon a lye But those that did say and publish that falshood of me was thy brethren the hirelings and deceivers at Newcastle upon Tyne and so thou takes their lies to be a strength unto thy own And as for the believing Samaritans they did know by the spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh was indeed the Saviour of the world and Paul was a true Apostle when he proved that Jesus was the very Christ as Acts 9.22 And that which Christ himselfe said in the first of John 4. and 2. was true but what is all that unto thee to ground thy lye upon as above mentioned Answ As for thy second query calling George Whitehead a silly deceiver for justifying of my saying in his answer to Cambridge queries What G. Whitehead said in that answer to Cambridge Queries was truth and was a question put forth unto them which neither they nor thou hast answered which Query was this Could Christ have been said to have been transfigured if his coming in the flesh had not been a figure or example till his glory was revealed hast thou not read that he was the expresse figure of his Fathers substance instead of which it is translated he is the expresse image c. And if thou wilt prove him a deceiver first deny what he hath said or that it is so written which if thou do affirme thou goest but about to turne the truth of God into a lye and if thou do confesse thou ownes what G. Whitehead hath said and so not prove him a deceiver and as for thy reason to contradict it which is that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 In this thou hast appeared very ignorant void of reason and true comparison for the Apostles and believers were neither in the power nor form of godly men before the renewing of their minds but were children of wrath and were in the form and power of wicked men Answ Againe Thy third Query is grounded upon the same lye with the first if Christs coming in the flesh be but a figure which was never spoken by me nor any of us but if we should say that Christ was an example or was the expresse figure of the Fathers substance yet thereby we do not say that Christs coming in the flesh is but a figure And as for my belief of Jesus he was real man and had a real body prepared for him and in it both soul and spirit power and life which was immortal and Eternal in which body was real flesh and blood and was born of the Virgine according to the Scripture Answ As to the fourth Query that which thou queriest of me thou dost not believe thy selfe that Christ in that very body of flesh and blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again but thou saist with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven so then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine which thou saist is real flesh and blood and so according to thy own writings not the same But we do believe that in the very same real body in which he after his resurrection did converse with his Disciples is ascended into heaven Answ To thy fifth Query I say That the suffering and dying of that man Jesus and his ascending into heaven is truly available unto those which do receive him by which their sins are taken away and they saved from destruction but those that do not receive him but reject him his light and spirit his suffering dying and rising