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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30904	Truth cleared of calumnies wherein a book intituled, A dialogue betwixt a Quaker and a stable Christian (printed at Aberdeen, and upon good ground judged to be writ by William Mitchell ...) is examined, and the disingenuity of the author, in his representing the Quakers is discovered : here is also their case truly stated, cleared, demonstrated, and the objections of their opposers answered according to truth, Scripture, and right reason / by Robert Barclay.	Barclay, Robert, 1648-1690.	1670 (1670)	Wing B738; ESTC R22049	63,242	72

Truth cleared of Calumnies Wherein A Book intituled A Dialogue betwixt a Quaker and a Stable Christian. Printed at Aberdeen and upon good ground judged to be writ by William Mitchell a Preacher neer by it or at least that he had the Cheife hand in it is examined and the disingenuity of the Author in his representing the Quakers is discovered Here is also their case truly stated cleared demonstrated and the Objections of their Opposers answered according to truth Scripture and right Reason By ROBERT BARCLAY Isai. 53 1. Who hath believed our report and to whom is the arme of the Lord revealed Joh 5 39. 40. Yee search the Scriptures because in them ye think to have eternal life and they are they which testify of me and ye will not come unto me that ye may have life Matth 5 11. Blessed are yee when men shall revile you and say all manner of evill against you falsely for my sake Act. 24 13. After the way which they call Heresy so Worship I the God of my Fathers 1 Thess. 5 21. Prove all things hold fast that which is good Printed in the Year 1670. The Preface To the READER READER FOR thy better understanding the matters handled in this treatise I thought fit to premise somewhat by way of Preface and indeed the nature of the thing calleth for it that thou mayest receive a true information concerning the People here pleaded for and so generally opposed but more particularly in the City of Aberdeen that thou mayest understand how the case stands betwixt them and their adversaries in it Know then that after the Lord had raised up the witnesses of this day and had opened in them and unto them the Light and Glory thereof diverse of them at sundry times were moved of the Lord to come into these parts unto the towne of Aberdeen in love to the seed which there was to be gathered but their acceptance for divers ye ●res together was very unsutable For the enemy that had wrought and was exalted in the mystery of inquity to daeken the appearance of this day had prepared and stirred up his Ministers to resist them and their testimony by aspersing them with many grosse Calumnies lyes and reproaches as dem●n●ed distracted bodily possessed of the devill practising abominations under Colour of being led to them by the Spirit and as to their Principles blasphemous denyers of the true Christ of Heaven Hell Angells the Resurrection of the body and day of judgment inconsistant with Magistracy nothing better then John of Leyden and his complices This was the vulgar and familiar language of the pulpits which was for a time received for unquestionable truth till about the yeare 1663. some sober and serious Professors in and about the said Towne did begin to weigh these things more narrowly and find the savour of that life in the testimony of that so much reproached people which some yeares before had stirred in others who were now come to a great losse and decay and this gave them occasion to examine the Principles and wayes of that People more exactly which proving upon inquiry to be far otherwayes then they had been represented gave them a further occasion to see the integrity and soundnesse of that despised People and of their Principles on the one hand and on the other to see the prejudic'd disingenuity and enmity of their accusers In these the Lord caused his word to prosper who were few in number yet noted as to their sobriety in their former way of profession and raised them up to own that People and their testimony and to become one with them now their adversarys finding nothing in these whom the Lord had raised up in these parts whereof to accuse them as to their conversation these Calumnies must bee cast upon strangers living some hundred miles distant where these untruths cannot be so easily disproved but as to these at home the tune must be turned therefor George Meldrum who hath more particulary espoused the quarrel against truth and its followers then any of his Brethren begins to say that it is no wonder to see Quakers forbeare grosse outbreakings for that Hereticks have formerly come as great a length but surely abstinence from grosse outbreakings and a cleane outward conversation is no good Argument against the Quakers so now the clamour is though they have been Professors and that noted ones too and though they be honest in their conversation yet they are deluded and deceived and are deceivers And thus as of old the truth and the witnesses of it have alwayes been reproached by those of the Pharisaical Spirit So now for sometimes they said Christ had a Devill sometimes the Apostles are drunck and other times mad Since these things have thus occurred there hath been no little industry used to suppresse this People by threatnings and persecution on which account divers of our Friends have been cast into Prison and some detained long in of the said towne and also by preaching and writing of which for thy information receive this account There were 30. Queries sent by the Bishop of Aberdeen so called to Alexander Jaffray Also about the same time a paper of 3. or 4. sheets subscribed by G. M. intituled The state of the controversy betwixt the Protestants and the Quakers The 30 Querys were not long after answered by G. K. in respect of A. J. his sicknesse at that time and returned to him from A. J. and sometime afterwards George Meldrum his paper called The state of the controversy c. was answered by G. K. to which papers of G. K. somewhat was premised by A. J. which papers being severall times called for but particularly in a letter from G. M. his own hand to A. J. wherein he intreats for an answer that hee might know as hee said in what things wee did differ or in what things wee onely seemed to differ were sent to him within 9. monthes after the receit of G. M. his papers Before all which a sermon on Purpose was preached by G. M. against the quakers in the ninth month 1666. wherein the summe of both his papers was asserted onely that it was digested in a Pulpit-way and introduced with an insinuating discourse of his pretended kindnesse for the persons of some Quakers and his unwillingnesse to medle with them were it not his office and zeale for the truth did ingage him to it but if it had been so indeed hee would have said no more of them then the truth whereas it is stuffed with lyes which are positively asserted to be the Quakers principles by this pretended Preacher of the Gospel from his chaire of verity so called or rather of falsehood whereas yet G. M. his Papers afore-mentioned were not so much as sent far lesse answered by which according to the words of his owne letter above mentioned he was to receive an understanding of the diffe●ences and yet before he received this understanding whilst he was

ignorant of the differences according to his owne Confession he is not ashamed to forge numbers of lyes upon the Lords People and as if they had been truths consisting in his knowledge to vent them before a publick auditory which sermon is largely answered by G. K. together with some animadversions upon it from A. J. Also severall papers past betwixt W. M. and G. K. which ha● their rise from some queries sent by P. L. to W. M. answered by W. M. to which was returned a reply by P. L. the sa●e was replyed ●o by G. K. which having received a reply from W. M. was again replyed to at length by G. K. it is now two yeares and upwards sineth last papers from our friends hands were returned to the respective Priests unto which as yet there is no answer nor any of them published but instead of all at last com●s out a Dialogue of which the proverb is verified p●rt●riu●t montes nascitur mus subscribed by no hand but generally understood to be W. M. and by him not denyed which whether it bee to deale fairely or ingenuously the ingenuous may judge Ingenuous dealing would have stated things as related from our own friends hands and given an account of the many Scripture proofes and arguments made use of in our friends papers which this author in his Dialogue hath done nothing lesse but deceitfully hath represented us considering what had past before to which he himselfe who ever he is could not but be privy and disingenuously hath dissembled and waved almost all the Scripture proofes arguments used by our friends in their aforesaid Papers as any may see who are willing to looke into the said Papers Coppyes of which are in several hands and any who desire to read them may have them readily from our friends Therefore however this worke of his may satisfy and deceive a benighted multitude whose faith is pinned upon other mens sleeves neverthelesse I hope it shall be an occasion to discover these men to any who are ingenuous and love not to be hood●incked but are willing to know the Truth So Reader having given thee this account I leave thee to the perusing of the following Papers omitting these needlesse Apologyes and flattering insinuations usual in Epistles of his Kind my end being to answer the good in all and to starve and not to feed the evil in any And I referre my selfe to that innocent and pure principle the Light of Christ Jesus in thee which beares testimony against all evil that thereby tbou mayest try and examine what is here writ and who are the owners of Scripture and who are the wresters of it which thou canst only truly discover and discerne by the Spirit from which the Scriptures came even that inward Light and Word of Grace that is able to build thee up and establish thee in the Truth unto which I recommend thee Urie the 19 of the 2 Month 1670. R. B. To the AUTHOR HAving taken a serious view of the Dialogue lately published by thee and having weighed and considered it in the fear of the Lord I found it incumbent upon the to reply unto it both upon the account of Truth at which it strikes and for thy Soules sake as also for others that any simple hearts who have received hurt by it may be undeceived and thy unfaire dealing may be manifested in order whereunto before I enter upon the examination thereof particularly I have some things to lay before thee And first as to the manner and method of thy book by way of Dialogue it is no wayes allovvable from thee being but a meer shift to shuffle by those other papers aforesaid from being noticed o● regarded where all these controversies are spoken to a● large Secondly the nature of this kind of wro●ng ought to have engaged thee to set dovvne as largely what could be said on the one hand as on the other and to have brought in all the proofs and arguments alledged by the Quakers or at least the most considerable but in that thou hast done nothing so much as becoms a man far lesse a Christian as any who have converse● with that people cannot but be sensible of Thou hast made a bare representation of the Quaker● principles and that so scantly and mincingly that thou frequently give●t thy self occasion to fight against a man of straw But that wherein thou hast manifested the ba●nes of thy Cause and thy weaknes in pleasing for it is that the substance of what thou hast said is nothing else but that which was writ in the papers before mentioned and so largely answered already Whereof thou art altogether silent and wouldst insinuate that what thou hast here writ was never answered by any Quaker yea is unanswerable Thirdly In the beginning of thy Epistle thou alledgest that thou hast examined divers Opinions of the people called Quakers and after ●●yall found them to be naught where as thou hast not so much as mentioned far lesse answered the Arguments used by them and in the manner of signifying their principles thou givest not their own words but couchest them in such words of thy own framing as may bear the most disadvantagious construction hence thou sayst that they deny original sin that they overturn the doctrine of the Saints perseverance that they call the ordinances of Christ the inventions of men all which things as so conceived are false 4. There hath appeared in thee ane airy spirit full of vanity and selfe conceit a thing which thou seemest much to cry out against in others and wil not see it in thy selfe hence in thy Epistle thou boastest that thou hast so succinctly confuted their errors highly commending the manner of thy writing as that which for ought thow knowest was never done by any who never handled these things with greater plaines and condescendingnes to the meanest capacity and in so narrow a compasse as thy owne words bear The signifying that it was the judgement of some that the publishing of thy papers might tend to edification the crying up of thy Zeale for the ordinances and many other passages too tedious to relate doe very much evidence an itching desire in thee to be commended and applauded in thy enterprise 5. In the writing and framing of thy discourse thou hast introduced thy selfe most child●shly and ridiculously and takest frequent occasion to play upon thy own wor●s and snatch at them as if thou hadst got some great advantage not unlike dogs that bark at their owne shadow or these cr●aturs that run and are mad when they see themselves in a looking glasse supposing it to be some other when ind●ed it is but their own● Image that this is thy way appears in many pages in thy book as they are heerafter examined Now more particularly So soone as thou enterest upon the matter of debate Pag. 2. thou beginnest with great disingenuity an evidence of what may be expected or will be found throughout the rest

their t●stimony but by the inward testimony of the spirit Calvin after hee has said all that can be said of outward wayes at last concludes the only certaine way to know it in deed is by the testimony of the spirit l. 1. c. 7. Sect. 4. of his Inst. as to the course that Paul tooke with the obstinate Jewes it was very commendable becaus they said they beleived the Scriptures and seemed to esteeme them much though they opposed the truth witnessed to in the Scriptures so that it is evident that some great pretenders to the Scriptures can make a cloak of them to deny Christ himselfe as yee doe at this day And though Paul tooke that course with the Iewes yet wee see hee tooke no such course with the Athenians to wh●m he cited no Scripture nor endeavoured to perswade them by it but told them they were the off spring of God and wished them to feel after him who was not afar of from every one of them thirdly sayest thou the saints had recourse to the Scriptures in the examination of Doctrines So have wee too as befor has beene declared but that will not prove the Scripture is the rule Pag. 16. Fourthly thou sayest wee ar commanded to search the Scripturs Iohn 5. 39. Answer The words may be translated you search the Scriptures as Pasor translateth them But wee doe acknowledge the Scriptures are to be searched but are not to be rested in which was the Iewes fault who vvould not come to Christ to get life thinking to have eternal life in the Scriptures vvhich Christ cheks them for and that the Scriptures are profitable for doctrine correction instruction vvee owne and are commended for their dignity and authority but they are thus profitable onely to such as come to the Spirit to guide and direct them hovv to make use of them else they may prove an occasion of stumbling as they did to the Pharisees hence it is said that the man of God may be perfect mark the man of God not every Man novv no man can be truely called the man of God but hee that is led by the Spirit of God Next thou vvouldst undertake to prove that it is not the mind of God that the Spirit within men should be the Rule in which thou fallest very short as appears by saying that Christ made use of the Scripture to prove himselfe c and not the light within And did these Jewes receive him who had the Scriptures did they not reject him and why because they hearkned not unto the inward voice and testimony of the Father concerning him and this was the testimony which hee said was greater then that of Iohn though Iohn was the greatest of the Prophets and those vvho beleeve had the witnesse in themselves 1 Ioh. 5. 10. but to th● unbeleiving Iewes hee said yee have neither heard his voice nor seene his shape Secondly Thou sayest there is an expresse command to try the Spirits 1. Ioh. 4. 1. Answ. but is there any word there of trying them by the Scripture Cannot the Spirits be tryed by the Spirit of God or is there any better way to try them How tryed Peter the spirit of Ananias and Saphirah And is not the tryall and discerning of Spirits the priviledge of the Saints now And how is it a peculiar priviledge to saints unles it be done by the Spirit of God For the Scriptures any can make use of the Apostle Iohn writing to the Saints concerning seducers points them to the Anoin●ing which remained in them and did teach them all things and by this they did know all things and consequently Spirits 1. Iohn 2. 20. 26. Thirdly thou sayest undoubtedly there are strong delusions c. Ans. there are so indeed But was there any more strongly deluded then the Pharisees Yet how much did they lay claime to the Scriptures how came they then to be deluded who wer so skilled in the Scriptures according to the letter of them and the poor People who were not so skilled so rightly to hit the matter And as to thy question what way shall the delusion be tryd if you neglect the VVord of God and look only within Answ As for the VVord of God nor yet the Scriptures testimony wee neglect not but what way thinkest thou shall the delusion be tryed If you neglect the Spirit within and look only upon the letter and words vvithout you if the Delusion be strong in the heart will it not twine and vvrest the Scriptures without to cause the Scriptures to seeme for it and suppose a man be deluded with a Spirit of delusion what can help him but God whose Spirit searcheth all the deepest things of Sathan and can and doth dscover them to those vvho love to be undeceived and are faithfull to God in what they certainly know And though the same deluding spirit who deceived first may deceive over againe that makes nothing against the insufficiency of the Spirit to discover the delusion but if a man be deceived either first or againe he is to blame himself for his defect in not being duely watchfull and faithfull in what is discovered to him of God truly and certainly Consider the tendency of thy argument which strikes not only at the certainty of the Saints faith now from the Spirit within and the assurance of knowledge there from but also strikes at the very certainty and assurance of all the Faith and knowledge the holy Prophets and men of God had from the Spirit vvithin when Seripture was not Wee are in no greater hazzard to be deceived now then they were then You that set up the Scripture as your only rule the many sects of you what jangling and contesting is among you while one pleads for his sence and another for his which all proceeds from their wandring from the Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures And as to satisfying of others wee refer recommend them to the same Spirit in them to receive their satisfaction from that which only can and will satisfy them who wait for it in singlenes Pag. 18. And whereas thou sayest the Saints are led and guided by the Spirit but it is according to the Scriptures So say wee too But it doth not therefore follow that the Spirit hath so tyed and limited himselfe to the use of the scriptures as alwayes to use them in every particular step of his guiding the Saints the Spirit is free to use or not use the scriptures at his pleasure and guideth the Saints in many particular steps of their life for which there is no particular scripture either to approve or disprove them in As for the more sure VVord of Prophesy wee grant it is the rule but deny that that more sure VVord is the Scriptures but it is that VVord in the heart from which the Scriptures came and in and by which the Scriptures are to be interpreted and is it not grosse blindnes darknes to say the Scripture is more

sure then that VVord light life and Spirit from which they came Had not the Scriptures all their sureness from the inward testimony of the spirit How then can they be more sure Thy example of the Schoolmaster the coppy servs not thy turne for the Spirit is unto the Saints both their teacher their Coppy And they need not goe forth for a Coppy if they vvalk according to this by looking upon it eying it they shal be good Schollers Proficients hee writes them a living Coppy in their hearts engraves it on fleshly tables whereas they who looke upon no other Coppy but the VVords without them are those who are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth Pag. 19. Thou askest why wee disjoine the Spirit and the Scriptures citing Isaiah 50. 21. Answ. Wee are not to disjoine what the Lord putteth together somtimes the Spirit joineth or concurreth with the Scripture VVords and sometimes not how many preach and pray and read the Scriptures and talke of them without the joint concurrence of the Spirit Which wee say they ought not to doe the Scriptures should never be used to preach and pray c. But in the concurrence and assistance of the Spirit for they are not of true use to any without the Spirit but yee disjoine them who would have praying in the letter and useing of it without the motion of the Spirit to such the Scripture is indeed but a dead letter and it is nowayes a reproach unto them to be so called Yea what are the best of men without the Spirit but dead men and this is not a reproach to them but their Glory so nor is it to Scripture Thou sayest they are said to be a killing letter and this shewes that they are not dead Answ. A poor argument indeed Can not dead things kill if men feed upon them If thou feedest upon sand gravell stones shells will not these things kil thee though they be dead And if thou feedst upon the letter without thee and not upon the life thou canst not live yea if one that lived did depart from feeding upon the life to feed upon the letter it would kill him And as for that Scripture cited by thee it makes very much against thee to wit Isaiah 59. 21. For it is one thing for God to put VVords into mens mouths and far another for men to gather these VVords from that without and put them into their owne mouths nor doth it say that the VVords God shall put into their mouths shall be no other words more or lesse but the expresse scripture words why art thou not ashamed to cite this scripture doe yee not say to speake as the infallible Spirit givs utterance is ceased a●d consequently Gods putting VVords into the mouth Gods furnishing them with VVords suggested from his owne Spirit and life which the holy Prophets and Apostles vvitnessed to speake as moved by the holy Ghost doe yee not say this is ceased why then citest thou a scripture which is so plaine and clear for it but that thou art in blindnes and confusion Pag. 19. In thy procedure upon the point of justification thou makest a large step in that crooked path of deceipt wherein Thou hadst too much traced from the beginning but now more abundantly then ever thou displayest the Banner of thy disingenuity and gatherest all thy forces together it should seeme resolving to give the Quakers a finall over throw And to make the matter misty in the very entry of it thou raisest Dust to thy self venting thy own filthy imaginations under the notion of coming from them applauding thy endeavours as if thou wert studying to preserve pure the principle of justification in a point where none is jumbling it among us as thou advancest a litle further Pag. 20. 21 having given a very scant account of their doctrine in this matter couching it in most disadvantagious terms thou takest great liberty to extend thy selfe in a foolish and vaine excursion as if having fathomed the Quakers thou hadst discovered them to be either turned or turning rank Papists therefore to trace thee throughly in this matter that if it be possible thou maist come to have a discovery of thy Vanity and malice or though thou shouldst prove irrecoverable yet others may have a view of both I shall first in honesty and plainnes declare the principle of truth in this matter thereby observing thy misrepresentations Secondly shew what vast difference is betwixt us and the Papists therein And thirdly make manifest how much nearer of kin yee are to the Papists even as to this particular and the things relating thereunto then wee which may serve as a seasonable shower to allay that windy triumph vvhich thou endeavourest to establish unto thy selfe As to the first vvee are justified by Christ Jesus both as hee appeared and was made manifest in the flesh at Ierusalem and also as hee is made manifest and revealed in us and thus wee doe not divide Christ nor his righteousnes without from his righteousnes within but wee doe receive and embrace him wholly and undivided THE LORD OVR RIGHTEOVSNES Ieremiah 23. 6. 1. 30. By which wee are both made and accounted righteous in the sight of God and which ought not nor cannot be divided And the manner and way wherby his righteousnes and obedience death and sufferings without become profitable unto us and is made onrs is by receiving him and becoming one with him in our hearts embraceing and entertaining that holy seed which as it is embraced and entertained becometh a holy birth in us which in Scripture is called Christ formed within Christ within the hope of glory Gal. 4. 19. Coloss. 1. 27. By which the body of sin and death is done away and wee cleansed and washed and purged from our sins not imaginarily but really and we really and truly made righteous and holy and pure in the sight of God which righteousnes is properly enough said to be the righteousnes of Christ for it is immediatly from him and stands in him and is as unseparable from him as the beams are from the sun and it is through the union betwixt him and us his righteous life and nature brought forth in us and wee made one with it as the branches are with the vine that wee have a true Title and right to what hee hath done and suffered for us for being so closely united to Christ his righteousnes becometh ours his obedience ours his death and suffrings ours thus wee know hiw and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffrings being made conformable to his death Philip. 3. 10. By which nearnes and fellowship wee come to know an unity with the suffring seed both in our selves and others and therein to travell for its raising and deliverance which yet no wayes derogats from the worth of the sacrifice hee offred up unto God without the gates of Jerusalem while

not so much as once bowed a knee to call upon God in their families What ground hast thou for this thy beliefe May they not bow their knees in their families though it be hid from the observation of malicious eyes who may so asperse them May they not pray in secret and be seene of the Father to pray according to Matth. 6. 6. Though they cannot be seene by the eyes of malicious Spyes And where a publick testimony in words is required it is also given nor doe wee know any friends of truth who have any whom they can joine with in Prayer in the family but doe meet together in the family and wait together breath together and pray together and that much oftener then thou insinuats sometimes without and sometimes with the outward signification of words so that wee returne this thy charge as false and malicious Thou sayest If this impulse be denyed for Years men all that while according to us must not pray But here thou speakest as one wholly unacquainted with the wayes and motions of the Spirit to suppose such a case which cannot be for the breathings and motions of the Spirit and especially unto Prayer are very frequent unto those who wait for them and are as necessary unto the Children of God as their dayly bread yea and more which the Father withholdeth not but giveth in due season But many times the Spirit of Prayer is felt to move and is answered when there is no liberty given to speake words in the hearing of others nor is thy other supposition lesse vaine and foolish that if aman were at the gates of death and in danger of present drowning yet without an impulse as thou callest it hee must not adventure to cry to God for mercy and help for suppose he did cry vvithout all help of the Spirit vvhat vvould it avail him vvould it have any acceptance vvith God Shew us vvherever a spiritlesse prayer vvas accepted of God or required Nay it is a vaine oblation vvhich is expresly forbidden and it is expresly commanded that praying be alvvayes in the spirit Eph. 6. 18. And as for the Saints vvhen they are dying or in any difficulty wee know the Spirit of prayer will never be wanting to breath through them at such occasions and to give words as there is a service for them But further thou alledgest that this Principle of ours leadeth to woefull security for what need you be d●●quieted for refraining prayer before God thou sayest or any other piece of service seing you have salve at hand to heal this sore and that is the want of an impulse Answ. If any fall into security and refraine prayer it is not that our Principle leadeth into it for our Principle leadeth out of all security into continuall watching unto prayer and wating upon the motions of the Spirit of God now if any feel not these motions they are nothing the lesse guilty becaus by their neglect they provoke the Lord to withhold them and render themselves out of frame to feel or entertaine them and thus who neglect the worship of God are justly under condemnation and if they have peace it is but a false peace which will faile them and as for our peace wee have found it to be great peace but wee have not come by it after such a way as thou doest falsely and rashly judge as by neglecting the worship of God and stopping the mouth of conscience but by being turned to that living VVord and Law of God in our hearts by loving it and cleaving to it yea by receiving the reproofes chastisements of God through it and submitting to the judgement of it when it hath beene as a hammer and as a sword and as a fire in us breaking in pieces and destroying all that false unsound peace wee had created to our selves in the day of our alienation from the light of God in us And unto peace wee are come through great tribulation of soule even such as thou art a stranger unto being ignorant both of the one and the other and so hast therein shewed thy folly in judging what thou knowest not And as for woefull security wee know not where it more abounds then among hypocriticall professors who with the VVhore in the Proverbs offer up their sacrifices of morning and evening prayers and thereby create a peace to themselves though they let their hearts goe a whoring after their lusts all the day did not the Pharisees pray much outwardly and were much in orher outward practises of devotion and so created a false peace and esteeme unto themselves And can you deny but that there are many such among you who make up a false peace to themselves by leaning upon their outward performances Now what If I should charge this upon your Principle wouldst thou think it fair dealing Thirdly Pag. 52. Thou sayest Doth not that opinion tend to Atheisme which rendreth mortification of sin even in this life useless c. Answ. Here thou dealest disingenuously Is mortification of sin uselesse where the end of it is attained And is not perfection the end of mortification Againe thou sayest The opinion of a sinles perfection wounds the very vitals of Religion Answ. Who could have expected that one that pretends to Religion would have beene so brazen-faced as to put such an expression in print What is the end of true Religion but to lead out of sin Do the vitals of Religion consist in sinning or in not sinning If it consist in sinning then they that Sin most are most religious But if it consist in not sinning and keeping the commandements of God without sin then to plead for such a thing as attainable hurteth not the vitals of Religion What! Cannot the Saints live better without sin then with it Yea surely they can live well without that which is a burden and as Death unto their life they whose life is in sin cannot live but in sin but the Saints life is not in sin but in righteousnes And thy consequences are vaine and foolish as 1. That men need not pray for pardon of sin 2. That they need not the Blood of Christ to cleanse them from sin 3. That they need not repentance For wee grant that all have sinned and so need those things by which they may attaine unto perfection and who witnesse perf●ction are come to witnesse the true use of these things and as the Blood of Christ cleanseth from all the sin so is preserveth cleane and such have received the forgivenes of their sins being turned from them unto righteousnes which is the fulfilling of repentance And vvhereas thou sayest Bring me to the particular person that is sinlesse and I shall apply to him that of the Apostle 1. Ioh. 1. 8. Thou shevvest openly thy confusion for by thy applying to him that of the Apostle vvouldest thou inferre a sinlesse man to be a sinning man That is a contradiction but though vvee should bring a man to