have respect to the Saints the whole lump of them if you will maintain your interest whole and intire have regard to the Saints small and great More could not have been said to perswade the people to do you good and in this you are in no wise inferiour to the most self-preaching Monks Pr. I scorn your words we are in nothing like your foolish Fryars Presbyterians are a serious and considering people who serve God according to his VVord in spirit and in truth whereas they mind nothing but their fopperies their superstitions and biggotteries whereby they have made Religion ridiculous Pa. Yes you would fain make the world believe that your new-devised Church-Government and every thing you speak and do is Scripture and according to the Spirit and truth and to hear you cry up your Orders and outward circumstances of divine Service one would think you had found Scriptural or spiritual Ceremonies But when all comes to all it is only this that you make Religion and Godliness to consist in rejecting that decent and instructing Order in Divine VVorship which the Primitive Church used and transmitted to us for to follow your irreverent and unseemly manner of worshipping God according to your own minds But that you also have done enough to make Religion ridiculous and fabulous too is easie to be seen by what I have said and shall say further the many intolerabiles ineptias you preached in your best-studied Sermons before your Parliament and printed afterwards as being excellent Discourses are sufficient proofs that your grave out-sides are inwardly full of emptiness or something else and I protest nothing can fully represent how ridiculous you have made the Publick Offices of Religion as being an eye-witness of it in your Private Meetings And had you not besotted your people by making them believe that what others do is all Popish and Antichristian but what you do your selves is Scripture and Gods Ordinance in purity they would hiss you out of your Desks or at least leave you there alone to enjoy your extravagant humours I leave it as a conclusion to be drawn from our whole Discourse when it is ended that you have made Religion ridiculous or rather that yours is a mock-Religion consisting altogether as to the exterior of it in new-made Prayers and Sermons spoken with a certain piteous tone and some affected faces and paroxisms of Zeal such as Mr. Cheynel was in when he told the Parliament 1646. p. 4. I arrest you this day at the Suit of the great Jehovah for a Debt of ten thousand talents nay millions of millions and over and above of High Treason against the three Persons of the ever-blessed Trinity and then he was in a Trance pag. 24. Oh saith he I feel I bless God I feel my self transported even beyond my self with raptures and extasies of love I could tell you of Christ-concerning-points and Soul-concerning-points of Parliament-repentance and Sacrament-repentance and Bed-repentance and Shop-repentance and many such new-coined phrases which are none of the least part of the powerfulness of preaching And I could tell you of a receipt which is as the extract of a Book called Parliament-Physick for a sick Nation Licensed by Mr. J. Cranford which makes a mock-Physick or Divinity of all Evangelick and moral Vertues 1644. p. 112. A great deal of fopperies and futilities as you charge us with might be pickt out of the Sermons as you then printed and I doubt not but the Prayers were much after the same sort had they come out in print and if my Notes deceive me not what you preach now is not much better but I will not say any thing except what I have under your hands But this needs not be prosecuted directly any further Pr. What of all this These be personal failings I don't know how we are come insensibly to talk of things that are meerly practical whereas we was to speak of Doctrinal points I 'll give you but two or three instances more of the wide difference that is betwixt us and then let all the world be judge how impertinent you have been in charging Popery upon us And first you make outward splendor and prosperity to be a mark of the true Church whereas we teach according to Divine and Humane Histories that the Church hath her wanes as well as her fulness that sometimes she is fain to flee into the wilderness and that her Glory may be eclipsed without she doth cease to be the true and only Spouse of Christ Pa. Well I hope you love us never the worse for that agreement as you see is betwixt us in practical points for those be the most important But as for what you mentioned last I must confess that after the Kings and the Churches return to their right you taught E. Calamy 1662. p. 10. 14 That the Ark of God was in great danger and very near to be lost gray hairs saith Mr. Calamy are upon the Gospel I say not that the Gospel is dying but that it hath gray hairs I dare challenge any Scholar to shew me an example of any Nation that hath enjoyed the Gospel for an hundred years together now that gray hairs is to an hundred years is no wonder Well gray hairs are here and there and yet no man lays it to heart But then 't is to be observed that your Principles and Doctrines do change according to your condition Th. Good Ph. Nye Sy. Symp. Jer. Bur. W. Bridge p. 10. according as five of your Brethren told us in their Apology to the Parliament This principle we carried along with us not to make our present judgment and practice a binding Law to our selves for the future For in the days of your Power you then followed God and Providence every prosperous success of yours was a mark that yours was Gods Cause and you his beloved ones Behold God in the Mount cries Mr. Vicars at every advantage you had over the Kings party in his Jehovah-Jireh yea and your prosperity was a mark that you were destroying Antichrist Tho. Palmer in that Sermon 1644. dedicated to the Earl of Essex Epist Dedicat hath these brave expressions God hath put you in his own place God hath grac'd you with his own Name Lord of Hosts General of Armies God hath committed to your care what is most precious to himself precious Gospel precious Ordinances a precious Parliament a precious people God hath called forth your Excellency as a choice Worthy to be his General and the Champion of Jesus Christ to fight the great and last battel with Antichrist in this your native Kingdom So Mr. Caryl in a Thanksgiving Sermon for a Victory of yours Jos Caryl 1644. Divine Providence is a leading Cloud to this day it is ill to out-run Providence and it is as bad not to follow it Many things that I have said before will clear it enough that you made your good success and prosperity an argument
Presbyterian Divine The First Part. P. SIr your humble servant I come to wait you upon a double account to give you thanks for the Civilities I have heretofore received from you and to spend in the best Company I can that short time I am allow'd to stay in England G. I protest Master it grieves me that contrary to our inclination we should be forc'd to be thus severe against you for to secure the peace of the kingdom And were it not that your Religion stands in opposition to the good and peaceable intentions which I believe some of you may have I do protest that I my self would heartily intercede for your staying and living quietly with us However you are very welcome P. Sir I know you to be of a very sweet nature by a long experience and I will requite your kindness by praying heartily for your conversion to the true Catholic Faith G. Master I thank you for your good will but I believe if your Prayers be heard I shall never be of your Religion for if it hath the truth yet therewith ye have mixt so many false Doctrins particular to your own Church that it can never be justly call'd The true Catholic Faith P. Sir you speak as you have been taught but did you well understand those things as you call false Doctrines I am sure you would be of another mind G. Well we are entred ab abrupto upon a Subject that will help us to pass away the time therefore I desire you my good Friend for our old acquaintance sake to let me know positively the truth of what your Church believes in the chiefest things we differ from you as it is taught and recorded by your most approved Doctors P. I will with all my heart as far as I am able and that you may not think I disguise any thing or speak my private Opinions I will bring the very words of the Council of Trent or Bellarmin or Stapleton as the Authentic Proofs of the truth of what I shall say ask you what you have a mind to know G. First let me enquire of what you believe concerning the Holy Scripture for we make it the Ground and the Rule of our Faith being persuaded that it conteins all things necessary to Salvation P. We are much of another mind for we hold that the Scripture doth not expresly contein all that is necessary to be believed or to be done i.e. Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 3. that its Doctrine is defective in what concerns Faith and Morality Nos asserimus in Scripturis non contineri expresse totam doctrinam necessariam sive de fide sive de moribus G. That 's very plain and I believe more than you dare say to those you endeavour to make your Proselytes P. Nay Sir before we proceed I must tell you that I expect you would render me like for like and cite the words of Cranmer or Calvin or whatever Authors they are you have your Doctrine from that it may be seen which of us hath the better Authorities for our several Opinions pray who taught you that all things necessary to salvation are contein'd in Scripture G. Our Blessed Saviour who approved the Jews opinion of believing that by the Scriptures they might have eternal life and therefore commanded them to search them John 5.39 Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifie of me And more expresly S. Paul who affirms that they are able to make us wise unto salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 c. being inspir'd by God These two Texts are of more weight with me than the contrary affirmations of twenty Cardinals And as for the Authors of our Religion we own none besides Christ and his blessed Apostles Those Doctrines of our Church which are positive are plainly contein'd in Scripture and the best Records of the Primitive Church and are own'd and believ'd by you also and the negatives which are against your Innovations can neither be disprov'd by Scripture nor the Antient Fathers but are generally included in the positive All this is to be seen in the learned labours of many of the Reformed Doctors I will not make our Discourse so tedious as to rehearse what they have said upon that subject therefore I desire you to be contented with a few plain Scriptures which I will bring to authorize our denying those Articles of your Roman Faith we have rejected P. Well do so if you will but let me tell you that Scripture is not to be the judge of Differences in Religion 'T is the Pope and Council must decide all Controversies and declare the true sense of Scripture Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 3. Judicem dicimus veri sensus Scripturae omnium Controversiarum esse Ecclesiam id est Pontificem cum Concilio G. I don't believe it for I find that God sends his People to the Law and to the Testimony to examin the Doctrine of the Prophets Isa 8.20 and I hope the Gospel may as well have the Privilege that by it we should examin the Doctrin of the Pope Christ tells the Saducees that they cried because they knew not the Scriptures Mar. 12.24 Luke 16.29 It is said in the Parable of Dives They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them And it is recorded to the praise of the people of Berea that they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so Acts 17.11 In all these the Scripture is made Judge of Controversies and by it the Doctrin of S. Paul himself is tried and examined P. But for all that the Scripture is very obscure and harder to be understood than the Notions of Metaphysic Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 1. Certe si scientia Metaphysicorum difficilior quomodo non obscurissima erit Scriptura quae de rebus longe altioribus agit And if the People should read it it would do them more harm than good for 't would be an occasion of their falling into error about those Doctrines that concern Faith and a good Life Et ibid. l. 2. c. 15. Populum non solum non eaperet fructum ex Scripturis sed etiam caperet detrimentum acciperet enim facillime occasionem errandi tum in doctrina fidei tum in praeceptis vitae morum Therefore all men ought to follow the Decisions of Popes and Councils that they may be guided in the truth G. Nay I would have the people follow the judgment of the Church they live in but I would have them to make use of their Rationality to chuse the Communion of the purest Church according to the Word of God and if they have learning enough according to the four first General Councils and the Primitive Christians and not deny their Reason and the plain meaning of Scripture and make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to
Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do not give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19.7 â— The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I don't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 4. We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. â— c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— 1 Joh. â— 1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Word to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till tomorrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for Liberty and Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was
where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had found the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sacâ—a l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum humanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human saith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Hereties have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontific is Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Gal. 1.8 Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Greec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very
and are deceived Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGVE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The Second Part. Pr. YOur Servant Sir I come to see how you do and to spend an hour with you according to my promise G. Sir you are very welcome I am glad to see you and I was very impatient of your coming as much to enjoy your good company my self as to procure it to this old acquaintance of mine who long'd for it as much as I did Pr. Ha I doubt you have too many such acquaintances I know the man and am sorry to see you should keep company with him an Enemy to Christ and Christian Religion Take heed Sir Antichrist is of a very seducing Spirit Pa. Oh how now Master you fall foul upon me already that 's a very coarse Complement to salute me with the odious name of Antichrist But I hope you are not in earnest for my part I am glad to see you and desire to shake hands with you if it will not defile the holiness of yours Pr. Avoid Satan I would not have so much as your shadow to touch me and I am sorry to polute mine eyes with the sight of such a foul object as you are no there ought to be no communication betwixt light and darkness Pa. That 's true too but I 'll warrant you you and I are much of a dye and I am not of so dark a colour as you think I dare say for all your great aversion to me your Religion and mine differ but a little or at least nothing so much as that of the Church of England which you think comes very near to ours I can make it appear that we of Rome are agreed in many things with the English Presbyterians wherein we greatly differ from other Protestants come my good Friend let you and I dispute the case a little you shall find that I 'll give you great satisfaction in it Pr. These be impertinent brags and paradoxes I need no satisfaction in the case I am sure enough of the contrary There are no men under the Sun that hate and abhor Popery so much as we do therefore you may spare your labour and keep your breath for a better use G. Pray Sir don't shrink or else you 'll give him occasion to insult and me to be doubtful Sure after having been these twenty years set about the extirpation of Popery you are not afraid of being now prov'd a Papist Come make him repent of his bold challenge and make it appear that your practice and opinions are as averse to Rome as your words and clamors have been P. Yet still I stand upon my first ground you come very near to the Church of Rome in many things wherein you differ from the Church of England even in those things that are counted the worst of our errours Pr. I shall quickly confute your false and daring Assertion And first your Church doth greatly derogate from the Word of God and makes it inferiour to her Traditions and the Determinations of her Popes and Councils Can you charge us with any such thing Pa. Yes that I can You do greatly undervalue the same Divine Word to set up your Sermons the higher you perswade your people that that is the only Preaching and the true and only Word of God which you deliver out of your Pulpits so that your own Discourses are more attended and more regarded than the Bible it self And so prevalent is this opinion that those of your sort that go to the Parish Churches defer to go in while the Psalms the Chapters and the Epistle and Gospel are reading as if these were not worth the hearing But what is of the mans own making they will listen to attentively and perhaps write it down and repeat it with a great deal of Devotion Gods Word is but a Woodden Dagger with you it doth not reach the heart but the worst Sermon in your Conventicles pierceth the very soul and makes the people sigh and groan and take on most pitifully the powerfulness of Preaching indangers the very heart-strings And so current 't is amongst you that your Preaching is the Word of God that 't is call'd by the name of The Gospel and to hear it is made a Mark of Election So Mr. Jeremiah Burroughs told the Parliament Serm. Print 1. 645. p. 2. When I consider this place Westminster the extraordinary hand of God in bringing the Gospel to be preacht to you here in power those thoughts presently arise there is hope that there are many souls here belonging to Gods Election surely many will come in and imbrace the Gospel here And by the transcribing those sacred Oracles men were to judge of the condition their souls were in Thomas Palmer in a Sermon of his tells the people 1644. p. 28. That to hear Sermons and not write them is like taking water in a Sieve You keep a Shop-Book saith he O be perswaded to keep a Soul-Book that you may know how your Spiritual Estate stands belike those that had much written had very rich souls what increase or decrease of Grace you make this recording of revealed Truths and Soul-experiences from God would be of admirable use in time of trouble This is the difference in the case we undervalue Scripture that we may heed the more the Decrees of our Pope and you that you may the better attend to the dictates of every one of your Sermonizers Pr. I know all you can alledge will come short of what you would prove therefore I don't intend to trouble my self with answering your impertinencies it would but make our Discourse too tedious let this Gentleman be judge betwixt you and I who are in tâ—e right Pa. That will be very well I 'll follow your example and endeavour to shorten our Dialogue by pleading guilty tâ— every Article Charge our Religion with what you will I 'll deny nothing but shew you your â—wn face in that Mirrour you shall reach to me Come proceed Pr. In your publick Worship you use an unknown Tongue which the people doth not understand and thereby you keep them in ignorance that they may not be able to discern the errours of your Religion I am sure you can tax us with no such thing for we make all things plain to our hearers and they are an understanding and a knowing people who have more light in spiritual matters than any people whatsoever Pa. You do but fancy so they are as ignorant as any of us and they understand as little what you say though you speak English yet you speak an unknown Language to the people for you have so spiritualiz'd Religion that you have made riddles and mysteries of the plainest of its Doctrines it all consists in new-coin'd phrases and spiritual notions and fancies and secrets Pray hear what Mr. Francis Cheynell preacht before the Parliament Serm. 1646. p. 2.
London the rest of the Tribes and the godly Party throughout the Land so willingly exhaust themselves that Christ might be set up And pag. 20. Let all England cry that our Bloud our Poverty c. are abundantly repaid in this that there is such a concurrence to set up the Lord Christ upon his Throne to be Lord and Christ over this our Israel And the best of it is that when you had nothing to say for the antiquity of your goodly Discipline and Directory you would make it a Diopetes a thing fallen from Heaven or like the Heathen Legislators receiv'd from God himself that it might be reverenc'd accordingly Ibid. p. 20 The same person told his Auditory Here you have a reverend Assembly of grave and learned Divines who daily wait upon the Angel in the Mount to receive from him the lively Oracles and the pattern of Gods house to present to you But that which you magnified most of all and which was as much your own contrivance as your belov'd Directory was the Covenant the blessed Covenant There is not a Text in Scripture that speaks of the Covenants God hath made with men at any time but it was applied to your own by your learned Preachers Scripture Sacraments none of Gods Ordinances was comparable to it it was so divine and so excellent Proofs are almost needless in a thing so well known yet I 'll bring two or three out of Mr. Case's Sermons on the Covenant upon this Text Th. Case p. 59. Levit. 26.25 A wonderful mercy a high favour may we count it from our God that yet such a sovereign means is left us for our recovery and reconciliation And then saith he pag. 61. How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation Again pag. 19. There are found amongst us so many profane Ephramitish and Zabulonitish spirits that do contemptuously reject the Covenant of God And pag. 31. It was no small thing that poor Creatures should be married to the living God by the Covenant yea be one with him yea perfect in one What could you have said more except you had quite Deified it Now therefore in this business I see no more difference betwixt you and us than this that our Constitutions our Devices and our Ceremonies are more in number but acknowledged to be of Humane Institution whereas yours be fewer but of a Divine Origine as you say either from Scripture or some latter revelation but let the quality go for the quantity and we are agreed for 't is well known that you were as severe to those that would not conform and obey as ever was the Pope of Rome Pr. Now you put me in mind of it have any such thing as a Pope who pretends to be chosen by Gods Spirit and so acted by it that whatever he saith must be assented to as true he being altogether infallible Don't we rather â—each That God only is free from all errour and ignorance but that no man enjoys that priviledge Pa. No you have no such thing as one only Pope but you have a great many for every Minister of yours pretends to the same Authority and the same Priviledges and I believe that 's the reason you hate him of Rome so much because he will have no fellows but reign all alone I know not how 't is amongst you now but heretofore the Reforming Parliament-men themselves were chosen by the Spirit as Mr. Case told them in a Sermon Tho. Case 1644. p. 9. Surely had not the Spirit of the Lord gone forth to a wonder of wisdom and power in bespeaking the Votes of the people for a major part of men whose spirits were above fears and above flatteries c. If Parliament-men much more Ministers but I need no inference the Spirit was poured upon you all in such a measure that all ranks of people were endued by it with Heroick nay even Angelick Vertues and Abilities or else Mr. Case was mistaken for thus he said Ibid. p. 28 As the Spirit of the Lord came upon Sampson and Jephtah and David so hath it been in our conflicts the Spirit of the Lord hath come upon our Noble General and all our Commanders the Spirit of the Lord hath come upon our Gallants Gentlemen Young men faithful Country-men renowned Citizens so that he that was weak among them is as David and he that was as David hath been as the Angel of the Lord. And you the teaching Elders you pray by the Spirit and you preach by the Spirit wherefore it is I suppose that you call your Sermons the Gospel and Gods Word and if long Prayers and Sermons be a sign of having much of the Spirit any of you may vie it with all the Popes of Rome put together Nay and to make the parallel compleat you pronounce Bulls and Fulminations by the Spirit too Wil Beech Serm. Licenc'd by Mr. Cramford 1645. p. 10. Tell them from the Holy Ghost saith Mr. Beech from the Word of Truth that their destruction shall be terrible it shall be timely it shall be total And 't is more than probable you would have made Canonical Scripture ere now had not the Kings Return somewhat frighted away that Spirit you were so possest withal But in this there is still some difference betwixt our Opinions for with us the Pope hath the greatest part of the Spirit if not all of it whereas your Ministers are all sharers of it Pr. Yet still for ought you have said it doth not appear that we pretend to Infallibility we don't arrogate to our selves the power of interpreting Scripture exclusively to all others and before we have declar'd what the sense of it is we don't call it as you do A Waxen Nose which may be turn'd all manner of ways and never right till we fix it our selves Pa. One thing after another pray we have done with the Spirit which is the cause of Infallibility we shall now come to the expounding of Scripture which is the effect of that cause And to give you your due I must needs say that you have done very much in this and if you will but go on as you have begun you 'll go near to perswade posterity that a body may expound Scripture out of a Scotch Pulpit as well as out of St. Peters Chair and a great deal better for besides the Doctrinal part beyond which Popes could never go Presbyterians expound Prophecies and make Prophecies too Pray hear some of them Jer. Bur. Serm. 1643. p. 7â— All the Saints in these days should be full of the Spirit strong in the might of the Lord because Jesus Christ is about to pull down that great Enemy of his that Man of Sin and in his Conquest is said to come with Garments dipt in Bloud Rev. â—9 Do you think any man but he could have seen that this Nation wallowing in Bloud was the fulfilling of that Prophecy Mr. Th. Goodwin who belike had seen the