signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
RomanaÌ„ speculationem suam toti orbi indicere Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world Now by all this here deliuered M. Doctour you may see whether or no Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop as the word is taken in a sober and in the Latter aboue mentioned construction And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate which is so often enforced and vrged though with extreame wilfull or at least ignorant mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours MICHEAS Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest and therfore seeing the tyme of the new Testament is much superiour to the tyme of the Law I do not see but now in theiyme of Grace there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ and consequently the acknowledgmeÌ„t of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe CARD BELLARM. Michaeas you speake according to the Truth and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach who wryte thus thereof The high Priest of the Iewes was typically and in a figure the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth saying That forme of gouerment which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferioâ—r to Moâ—ses is an impious vngodly and vnlawfull gouerment contrary to the Word c. But M. D. proceede on further D. VVHITAKERS Our best Controuersists which as I may terme them aâ— the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers do teach that touching your Sacrament of Confession Innocentius the Third was the first that instituted auricular Confession for necessary Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since so late and fresh yow fee your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is And admitting this yonr Article touching Confession were not so new but for more ancient yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle since we are to call to minde that Haereses nonâ—am Nouitas quam veritas reuincit CARD BELLARM. I graunt willingly that many of your Controuersists among whom I also raÌ„ge yourfelfe are accounted meÌ„ of learning And therefore I rest the more amazed to see yow here perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth obiect this example to vs for Nouelty But I feare your and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours and misstakings for warrantable Truths and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities We finde S. Bernard who liued before Innocentius the third thus to wryte of this point Sed dicis sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri c. But thou saiest it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God because a Preist without him cannot absolue me from my sinnes To Which thy argument not I but S. Iames answereth Confesse your sinnes one to an other But to ascend higher S. Leo. who liued anno 440. describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt thus saith Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church that they should impose penance vpon them that confessed their sinnes that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction might be admitted by Way of reconciliation to the communion of the Sacraments In lyke sort S. Basil S. Leo his ancient discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein and teaching that a Ghostly Father in tymeof CoÌ„fession is an other from himselfe thus writeth Necessariò peccata eis aperiri debeÌ„t c. Our sinns are necessarily see heere the Necessity of Confession to be opened to those to whoÌ„ the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giueÌ„ for indeede we find that all the AncieÌ„ts did follow this course in Penance To be breife Cypryan and Tertullian of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession are charged by your owne Centurists to teach priuate Confession and this euen of thoughts and lesser sinnes and that such Confession was then commanded and thought necessary Thus far of this point Where by the way I must tell you that since protestaÌ„cy had it first source froÌ„ sence and sensuality the lesse wounder it is that Confession of sinnes made to a preist being so vngratfull to mans nature should be so vnpleasing to all protestants and so basely esteemed of for we all know that the water will ascend no higher then is the leuell of its first spring MICHNS I must acknowledg that our AncieÌ„t Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist Galatinus who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings our continual practise therof Adde hereto that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns and offences how could the Priest know what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer except he knew the particular sinne for which it is to be offered Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof seing there is no reasoÌ„ why now in the New Testament it should be wholy abrogated I cannot be induced to think that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation and change different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Your doctrine of Transubstantiatinn was first inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran for before that tyme not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation CARD BELLARM. Good God how poore and needy in proofe are you M. Doctour For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is that if you insist in the word Transubstantiation wee grant that it was first inuented and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence in the councell of Lateran But then this is but a verball litigation of you for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before And still you allow M. Doctour by reseÌ„blance this illation as good and necessary The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis was first inuented in the Councell of Nice to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice Idly and inconsequently concluded Therfore M. Doctour let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe and to omit that S. Augustine sayth vocatur caro quod non capit caro And in another place
vs at what times some sensible degrees and increase of this supposed change did happen and the manifestatioÌ„ of these degrees is to be made by naming the time and person when by whoÌ„ such and such a particular poynt or article of our present Roman Religion was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome The which not any Protestant notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories hath bin able yet to perform And thus farre M. Doctour of these your similitudes which you see in a true ballancing of them do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged D. WHITAKERS Indeede I grant that there are no Histories or Records at this day out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church But no doubt such Records there were though now wholy extinguished made away by the vigilancy and carefulnes of former Pâ—pes who to preserue the honour of their Church as free and exeÌ„pt from all change and innouation did deliberately purposely cause all Coppies of such writings and narrations to be for euer suppressed and buried in obliuion eyther by fire or otherwise CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour this is a meare groundles Phantasie If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies which affirme so much are yet extant If you produce no authority witnessing so much then why should we beleiue your bare and naked affirmation herein But to examine more punctually this poore refuge And first wheras you teach that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth now another supposing for the time this to be true how can it be conceiued that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants as you maÌ„taine though vntruly that in those times they were could be gathered suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity It is most absurd but to furmise such an impossibility Furthermore do we not see that the liues of such Popes which can be lesse warranted were recorded in histories yet extant to this very houre as else where is intimated Neither the narrations of them either were or could euer be suppressed How then can we be persuaded that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes Since certaine it is that the Popes if possible they could would haue caused all narrations touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished considering that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome Such an improbability this your euasion M. Doctour inuolues in its selfe D. WHITAKERS My Lord It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances and other arguments aboue produced to prooue the former presumed change But imagine for the time that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history examples of any knowne innouation imagine also that we cannot shew at what particular time and season the parcels of these changes did happen imagine lastly that there were neuer any records testimonies or writings in which these changes were registred yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture wherwith your religion is mortally foyled We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures to which only wee appeale and whose â—autarceia and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants the sacred Scripture being to vs more then decaplês apologia a tenfould shield of our fayth This I say we know and consequently we further know that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same which was planted in Rome by the Apostles Here is our fortresse here is our strength and this place to you Romanists is maccessible Here we haue Tò retòn the Word epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred And with this Word we are able to inflict Cairian pâ—etèn deadly to wound your popish Religion And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle If an Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you then that which wee haue preached let him be Anathema For to vs it is sufficient by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them and vs and as for Historiographers Wee giue them liberty to write what they will seeing this aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary And therfâ—re my Lord Cardinall I must say to you here with Archidamus ' èt è◠dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis either maÌ„taine your Religion with the force of Scripture or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to ballance this your last argument you must pardon me if I smile to my selle to obserue how affectedly and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse and especially in this your last close besprinkling diuers passages thereof as it were with some Greeke word or other Which in my iudgment beare with me if I misconster your meaning is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand what jolly men and great Clarkes you Protestants are And according hereto we commonly find the bookes writen either by English French or German Protestants euen to swell with Greeke phrases or sentences But who seeth not how forced this is it being a point of ostentation and vanity thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes We all know the tongues are but the porters of learning in which the Catholicks though with more cession modesty are most skilfull and that he who is a learned man indeede is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue as many Protestants are is like to that man who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle he reioiceth he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned I speake not this but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases and sentences but this chiefly when the QuestioÌ„ is touching translations out of that tongue and that we are to recurre to the Greeke being the originall for the cleering of that point Or when the
and temporary respects of riches and preferments are so potent and forcible with them as that they câ—nnot or at least they will not be induced to follow the Dictamen and resolution of their owne Iudgments If the subiect of your discourse be about the abstruse Misteries of the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist or of some other such sublime points you shall hardly draw them to relinquish naturall reason so deepely are they immersed therein it being indeed their Pillar of Non plus vltra Thus where other Christians enioy two eyes the one of Faith the other of Nature These Polyphemi shutting that of Faith do looke vpon the Articles of Religion only with this of Nature Choose rather to dispute touching matter of fact with in which may be included the proofe of the truth or falshood of the Protestant Religion then touching any dogmaticall point of faith and doctrine as receiuing it proofe from the scripture This I speake not but that the scripture makes most clearly for the Catholicks and against the Protestants But because your aduersary in dispute will euer cauill at your exposition of Scripture reducing it in the end against all antiquity of Fathers and tradition of the Church to the interpretation of his owne priuate and reuealing spirit and so your labour would prooue commonly to be lost thereby Now in matter of fact your Aduersary is forced to stand to the authorities deduced froÌ„ Ecclesiasticall Histories and other such humane proofes and therfore he must either shape a pro bable if not a sufficient answere to them which he neuer can do they wholy making against him euen by his owne learned brethrens Confessions or els he must rest silent And this is the reason why the Protestants are so loath to dispute of the Church since this Question comprehendeth in it selfe diuers points of fact as of it continuall Visibility Antiquity Succession Ordination and Mission of Pastours c. All which QuestioÌ„s receiue their proofes from particuler Instances warranted by shewing the particular times persons and other circumstances concerning matter of fact An other reason of this your choyse of your subiect of dispute may be in that few Men and those only schollers can truly censure of the exposition of scripture whereas almost euery illiterate man enioying but a reasonable capacity is able sufficiently to iudge of the testimonies produced to prooue or disprooue matter of fact And here I would wish you that in your dispute you labour to haue some Catholicks present for where all the Auditory are Protestants certaine it is that they will voice it against you howsoeuer the disputatioÌ„ may otherwise go But because these obseruatioÌ„s are ouer generall I will giue you here some more particuler since most of them may be restrained to certain particular passages which may occurre betweene you and your disputant Aduersary 1. First then let the true state of the Question discussed of be set downe and acknowledged on both sides in regard of the often willfully mistaken doctrine of the Catholicks That done reduce the question disputed of to as few branches as you can since multiplicity of Points is more subiect to confusion and forgetfulnes and giueth greater liberty to extrauagant digressions And will your Aduersary to auoid all such speaches but what are pertinent to the point handled And if he will needs wander in his discourses then you may reduce the force of them by way of Enthimem or syllogisme to the point disputed of that so both your Aduersary and the Auditory may see how roueingly these his speaches were vsed and how lowsely they and the question then handled do hang together 2. If your Aduersary vndertake the part of the Answerer suffer not him to oppose though he labour to do so to free himselfe from answering when he shall see himselfe plunged In like sort if he vndergo the part of the Opponent tye him precisely euer to oppose which Scene perhaps he being brought to a Non plus would sleyly transferre vpon you And thus be sure that eich of you keepe your chosen station 3. If your disputant will vaunt that he will prooue all by scripture onely as most of them giue it out they will then force him to draw all his premisses I meane both his Propositions if so they should be reduced to a forme of argument from the scripture alone of which Methode within two or three arguments he is most certaine to faile And if he take either of his Propositions from humane authority or from Naturall Reason you may tell him he leaueth his vndertaken Taske to wit to prooue from Scripture alone and consequently you may deny the force of his argument though otherwise logicall if it were reduced to forme 4. In your proofs drawne from Scripture labour to be much practised in the Protestants Translations of it of which infinite places make for the Catholicks Cause euen as the Scripture is translated by the Protestants This course farre gauleth them more then if you insisted in the Catholicke traÌ„slation 5. If you dispute with any by writing or enterchange of letters this being but a mute Aduocate of the minde write nothing but matter and with as much compendiousnes as the subiect will beare without any verball excursions or digressions since this proceeding will force your Aduersary to reply if he will reply at all to the matter For otherwise leauing the point which is cheifly to be handled he will shape a reply to other lesse necessary stuffe deliuered by you and then his Reply must passe abroad by the help of many partiall tongues for a full answere to your whole discourse 6. In like sort if you attempt to charge a Protestant Authour with lyes or Corruptions in their writings with which many of their bookes are euen loaded rather insist in a few and those manifest and vnanswereable then in a greater number seeing if your Aduersary can make show to salue but three or foure of a greater number which the more easily he may do by how much the number of the instanced falsifications is greater the supposed answereing of theÌ„ chosen picked out by him must seeme to disgrace all the rest vrged by you 7. If you intend to bring and obiect any wicked and vnwarrantable sayings especially out of Luther either against the Blessed Trinity or about his acknowledged lust sensuality be carefull to note the Editions of the Booke wherein such his sayings are to be found For in the later Editions of his workes many such sentences are for very shame left out and vnprinted And hereupon there are diuers Protestants who vtterly deny that euer any such words were written by him 8. Be skilfull in discouering though not in practising Sophistry that so you may the better loose and vntie eâ—â—e Protestants knots of deceipte diuers of them being most expert in all kinds of Paralogisme And particulerly takeheede of that grosse and vulger sleight vnworthy a schollar drawne from the particuler to the
into the wildernesse c. All which places are strangely deâ—orted by some few iniudicious men to the defence of the Churches Inuisibility And to the first against these Inuisibilists I say touching those former words of Elias first admitting the Iewish Synagogue to haue bene then inuisible yet is this exaÌ„ple defectiuely alleadged as applyed to the Church of Christ since the predictions and promises made to Christ his Church whose Testament is established in better promises are farre greater and more worthy then those of the Iewish Synagogue Agayne the foresaid example doth not extend to the whole Church of God before Christ but only to the Iewish Synagogue being only but a part or member thereof For besides the Iewes there were diuers others faythfull as Melchisadech Cornelius the Eunuch to the Queene of Caudace c. Secondly I say this example maketh wholy agaynst the alleadgers of it since the words of Elias were spoken not generally of all the Iewish People but only in regard of the Countrey of Israel and accordingly God answered the complaint of Elias with restraint to that only Countrey the texts saying I haue left to me in Israel seauen thousands which haue not bowed vnto Baâ—l Adde hereto that in those very tymes the Church did greatly florish in the adioyning Countrey of Iuda and was to Elias then knowne and Visible vnder the raigne of Asa and Iosaphat And thus is this obiection answered euen by Melancthon and Enoch Clapham Lastly admitting these seauen thousands were vnknowne to Elias yet followeth it not that they were vnknowne to all others of the same tyme Much lesse then is this Example of force to prooue that the Church of God may be Latent and Inuisible for many hundred yeares together as some of our ignorant brethren do teach not to one Elias only but to the whole World And thus farre of this so much vrged example of Elias To the second Those words of the Prophet The Oast sacrifice shall cease c. Are to be referred to the ouerthrow of Ierusalem and the ceasing of the Iewish sacrifices euen by the exposition of Chrysostome Ierome Austin others Neyther can the words be properly extended to the tymes of Antichrist since we teach that Antichrist is already comne and yet we see that sacrifices do still remayne To the third By the word departure mentioned by the Apostle is vnderstood eyther Antichrist himselfe by the figure Metonymia because he shal be the cause why many shall depart from Christ as Chrysostome and Theodoret vpon this place do expound as also Austin Or rather is vnderstood a departure and defection from the Roman Empyre as Ambrose Sedulius Primasius and diuers Protestants do expound this Text. To the fourth I answere that by the Woman flying into Wildernes S. Iohn meaneth not any locall or corporall flight out of the knowledge and notice of the world but only a spirituall retiring in hart from the allurements and pleasures of the World to pennance mortification and contemplation of celestiall matters And in this very sense Bullenger interpreteth the Churches flight from Babilon To the former texts I may adde though not aboue mentioned that passage in S Iohn Venit hora nunc est c. The hower cometh and now is when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and truth To this I answere that our Lord here teacheth that the chiefe worship of God which shal be exhibited in his Church consisteth in an internall worship of him but from hence therefore it followeth not that the Church is Inuisible or that all externall worship is prohibited for our Lord here speaketh not of the place where God shal be worshiped but of the manner and rite of worshiping Chrysostome Cyrill and Euthimius vpon this place do oppose those words in spirit to the ceremonies of the Iewes as they are corporall and those other words in truth to the sayd Ceremonies as they are figures of things to come Now because diuers of the former passages of Scripture are obiected to proue that the Church of Christ shal be Inuisible at the least in the time of Antichrist I do reply further hereto saying first That the former place of the Apostle to the Ephesians alledged by Ochinus touching an incessant vndiscontinued being of Pastours Doctours in the Church to remaine euen to the end of the world omitting other texts aboue cited by him as also the Protestants confessions of the Churches euer Visibility hereafter to be deliuered by Michaeas do fully answere and satisfy the supposed doubts suggested in the former texts touching the Churches Inuisibility in the time of Antichrist Secondly I reply that diuers learned brethren of ours punctually and purposely with reference to that time do teach that the Church shall remayne then Visible And to giue some tast hereof D. Pulke thus writeth In the time of Antichrist the Church was not driuen into any corner of the world but was is shal be dispersed in many Nations And againe he thus writeth The true Church though obscured and driuen into wildernes by Antichrist yet shall continue dispersed ouer the world Bullenger sayth the Church in the time of Antichrist shal be right famous But if it shal be then right famous it must of necessity be then Visible To be short Szegedine a learned Protestant thus writeth The ministers of Gods word shall preach all the time in which Antichrist shall tread vnderfoote the holy Citty Thus farre in solution of all such chiefe passages of Scripture vsually obiected against the perpetuall Visibility of the Church But now M. Doctour I thinke it is your turne to warraÌ„t the former truth from the wrytings of the auncient fathers and from arguments of Credibility which the force of reason it selfe doth minister DOCTOVR REYNOLDS I am prepared thereto And I will not presse your memoryes with a needles ouercharge of their sentences Some few and those pertinent shall serue though otherwise they are most luxuriant and plentifull herein And first thus Origin writeth Ecclesia est plaena fulgore ab oriente vsque ad Occidentem the Church is full of fulgour or brightnes from the East euen to the West Cyprian discourseth thus Ecclesia Dom. c. The Church of our Lord being replenished with light casteth forth it beames throughout the whole earth Chrysostome saith facilius est solem extingui quam Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easy for the Sunne to be extinguished then the Church to be obscured or darkened Finally for greater conpendiousnesse S. Austin is so full in this point as that he maketh the Visibility of the Church a Marke for the ignorant to discerne the true Church of Christ from all false Conuenticles thus writing Propter hoc enim motus c. By reason of the teÌ„ptations of those who are weake and may be seduced by some from acknowledging the Churches
tameisi externâ—â—ritus non proâ—sus negligerent vt communi consueâ—â—dino quasi torrente rapido arriperentur vt eadem cum alijs facerent The faythfull of those tymes did not apply their minds to to those popish idolatrous worships although they did not wholy neglect their externall rites and ceremonies and they were led with common custome as men caryed with a violent streame to do the same things with the Papists Quorum infirmitatem Deuâ— tolerauit â—ondonauit Whose infirmityes herein God did tolerate pardon Thus Osiander doth apologize for his Protestant Church in former tymes From whose testimony we see that the last sublimated sense of your former sentence resolues to this point To wit that the Protestant Church in those former tymes being in or vnder the Papacy did through feare of burning or banishment or some other persecution dissemble their Religion and communicate in all eternal rites and ceremonyes with the Church of Rome This is the sole true construction of the foresayd quaynt sentence though the former Protestants and perhapps also your selfe Newserâ—s thought it good policy to deliuer this their meaning to their followers in nyce and artificiall words as Physitians are accustomed to giue their most bitter pils rowled in sugar But seeing this point of grosse and palpable dissimulation in Religion is sufficiently discussed in our last passage I will enlarge my selfe no further therein NEVSERVS Michaeas I must confesse that vpon my more serious and intense obseruation of what you haue here spoken touching our deliuery of our former Answere that it is like to the spydars web artificially wouen but to small purpose And indeed in a true examining of it it is as you rightly say but the former Answere drawne from persecution though fashioned a new in an other mould OCHINVS I do acknowledg the same with Neuserus And therefore it is but losse of tyme to insist in such Extrauagancyes and phanâ—asyes But to proceed if there were no other reason to euict the visibility c. If there were no other reason to euict the visibility of the Protestant Church yet this following is of it selfe sufficient The true Church of Christ is euer to be visible as we all aboue haue taught Now we can prooue out of Scriptures that the Protestant Church is only the true Church Therefore we may infallibly conclude that the Protestant Church hath euer bene most visible That our Church is the true Church of Christ we proue in that it professeth that fayth which is agreable to the holy Scripture This is our demonstration This is our Asylum Here we need not to recurre to Ecclesiasticall Historyes or to search out examples of protestancy for euery age since this reason comprehendeth within it selfe all ages as a greater number doth the lesser MICHAEAS Indeede I grant this Argument is the Mayster-peece in all your shopps and as you well tearme it your Sanctuary But may not the Arians the Anabaptists or any other Hereticks prooue by the same ground their Church euer to haue bene visible Who no doubt with as great confidence as your selfs do will maintayne that they can iustify their Church from the Scripture it selfe to be the only true Church of God See how you Protestants here labour with the generall Infirmity of all Sectaryes and see how truly that Aphorism of the Physitians is verifyed in you and them to wit One and the same Symptome is incident to seuer all diseases But seing Doctour Whitakers for his vpshot did cast his last argument in his conference with Cardinal Bellarmyne in this your frame mould to prooue that the Church of Rome had altered it Religion because said he it fayth and Religion is contrary to the holy Scripture Therefore as loath to obtund your eares with a fastidious iteration of the same points I referre you to the full answere of the Cardinall giuen therto Only before I here cease I will patterne this your Euasion If then some slippery fellow should truly owe your Ocbinus a hundred pounds and ought to pay it by ten pounds euery yeare The yearely dayes of paymeÌ„ts being come you require of him the siluer He confidently auerreth that he hath payed you euery yeare the allotted portion of ten pounds till the whole hundred was payd You deny the same and will him eyther to show some quittance of any one payment or produce some witnesses thereof or relate some circumstance eyther of tyme or place where the yearely paymeÌ„ts were made Now he not being able to make good any one of these points not so much as but for one yeares payment flyeth to this shift saying Euery man of honesty integrity and sufficiency will pay his debts according to the due tymes of payment But he is assured that himselfe is in the number of thesâ— men professing honesty integrity and sufficiency Therefore certayne it is that he hath payed the foresayd hundred pounds within the prescribed tymes of payment Thus this Cheater bringeth his owne honesty which may iustly be called in Question as a Medium for proofe of these his imaginary payments as you do alledge the Conformity of the Protestants Religion to the Scripture for the supposed visibility of your Protestans Church for many ages Now Ochinus if you like this mans answere for both his and yours are wouen in one the same loome my wish then is that the next tyme you lend any siluer you may for a punishment of your ignorance herein be repayed backe after the same manner NEWSERVS I cannot but ingeniously confesse that our flying to the Scripture in this place serues only but to preuent the instancing of Protestants for former tymes And so to make a subtill and flye transition from the expected examples of Protestancy to the vniformity of the Protestant Religion with the Scripture And indeed it is but a Paralogisme or fallacy called Petitio principij consisting in assuming that to be proued and confested which is most in Question For the mayne Question betweene the Papists and vs is Whether their Religion or ours is more agreable to Gods Word And Michaeas I confesse you speake the truth in saying that euery Hereticke will appeale to the Scripture and will vrge a conformity of his fayth to it and consequently may seeke to iustify his owne Churches visibility by this his Appeale Whose Priuate spirit forsooth by detorting of the Scripture is able to Proiect any text thereof as Alâ—hymists do of Mettalls so as it shall endure the touch for the gilding ouer of his Heresy An Haeretici sayth old Vincentius Lyrinensis Diuini Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Viuntur planè vehement er quidem sed tantò magis cauendi sunt OCHINVS Indeed now vpon a second reuiew of this my argument I do not find that force in it which in the beginning it seemed to cary And I do see that euery Hereticke I meane in his owne iudgement and according to his owne false interpretation of Scripture
to your L. graue iudgment heerein and do willingly recalle my former mistaking in alledging the priuiledge of a stranger Yet I hope I rest excusable since not knowing but that it might stand in force I had no reason by not insisting vpon it at the first to be vniust to myne owne Innocency or to be slow in myne owne defence Now my L. to come to the obiected Offences Where first I must say that though an extraordinary Loue of Iustice doth sometymes cause Iniustice in the louer Yet no such effects do I feare in your L. since you are one who will impartially censure of Mens Actions as they are in themselfs and not as they are tragically amplified by the tongue of malice Touching then my accusations I must put your Lordship in minde that my Aduersaryes Serpentine not Prudence according to our Sauiours words but Subtilty hath in accusing of me so affectedly mingled together Truths with falshoods as that I can neither with one breath absolutely acknowledge all nor absolutly deny all Yf I say I haue not persuaded some Schollars of the Vniuersity to the Catholicke Roman Religion I do lye And if I do confesse that I haue diuulged to them any Positions of our Religion as supposed to contayne the seeds of disobedience and disloyalty to their Prince besides the vntruth thereof I should be false to myselfe and wrongfully become my owne Accuser Therefore to seuer and â—ane theese two different poynts one from the other know you most worthy Iudge that I do freely grant that during my stay in this your celebrious Vniuersity I haue moued diuers of the students to embrace our Catholicke and only true ReligioÌ„ And if it be theÌ„ an offence to persuade a Man to saue his soule I do heere acknowledge my selfe to be an offendour in this Kynd and shall receaue with comfort any imposed punishmeÌ„ts for the same But if it had been far better for one to haue lyed in euerlasting Informitye and Abis of Nothing then to enioye a Being and after to haue that Being for want of a true fayth and Religion in his Creatour to be punished with eternity of paynes I hope then we lyue not in those Canicular and vnluckly tymes but that the perswading by fayre and sweete meanes to the true fayth and religion shal be houlden if not as worthy of Commendacion yet at lest as exempt from blame and dislyke and the rather since Men are not to be forced by lawes to an erroneous fayth only for statesake Religionis non est cogere religionem quae spontè suscipi debeat non vi Touching the second poynt wherewith my aduersary too myld a word my Enemy chargeth me at this present that is that I should lye secret in the Vniuersity and labour by all meanes possible to plant in the Schollars iudgments such Theorems of doctryne as might breede disloyalty in their mynds It is a most false and calumnious imputation myselfe being therein as innocent as Innocency itselfe I know well that as on the one side nothing is more delicate then is the sense and feeling of an Estate so on the other I am assured that our Catholicke ReligioÌ„ is so far from approuing disloyalty as any Profession or Religion can be For it teacheth with the chiefe Apostle that we ought to be subiect to the King as excelling It surther instructed vs with the Apostle of the Gentills That we are to be subiect to higher powers seing there is no power but of God that Who resisteth the power resisteth the Ordinance of God and they that resist purchase to themselfs damnation Finally that we ought to be subiect euen of necessity and for conscience sake since such a Power beareth not his sword without cause Now our Religion teaching all this why should this Plantife out of his owne speculatiue and suspicious conceaâ—e like to a superfluous Comment which ascrybeth more to the Text then euer the Authour meaned soyle my innocent and cleere intentions with the aspersion of such a foule demeanour Therefore my L. since this is only storme which at this present cheifly showereth vpon my disgrace I hope that the radiant beames of Iustice through your L. meanes will be of force to discipate and dissolue it VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord these are the accustomed common places of mouths exhaling forth disloyalty I meane to plead innocency though neuer so faulty and to stuffe their excuse with tragicall phrases apt to stir vp a vulgar pitty But if this Man my L. who hath contaminated himselfe with so many foule breaches of Ciuill Hospitality which all men in all Nations most ceremoniously obserue may passe vnchastized then let vice expect to be rewarded and vertue punished But why do I labour so painfully to take the height of this his wicked action since it is a kind of errour ouer precisely to insist in proofe of most euident Truths as if doubt were here to be made either of your L. iudgment herein or of your Iustice the one being sufficiently warranted vnto vs by your long experience in this kind the other by your many examples of like Nature But to turne my words particularly to you Michaeas I pray you why must your stay in our Vniuersity be kept so close and secret after you gaue it out you would instantly depart Belike you thought the more retyredly you liued from the eye of vs all the greater conceate would be had of your presumed Worth and so your followers might keepe you as a treasure reserued to themselues you imitating herein Diogenes who became the more eminent in regard of his affected obscurity MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour do not thus betrample vpon old age and calamity neither lay a further weight of digrace by your forgeryes vpon him whom misery and yeares haue almost prostrated euen with the earth Neither seeke to enlarge my faults with your more greiuous fault And where you inuest my priuat retyringe in your Vniuersity with a veyle of a desired emminency I must replye that I am as far from all such elation and pryde of mynd as your selfe is from all charitable censuring of me For I do acknowledge my selfe to be a meane and deâ—ected Old Man and do ascrybe all glory height and honour to hym who is celsitudo humilium And who being only supreme doth most delight in those who are the lowest And this deseruedly since we find by experience that who are most poore in Spirit are commonly most rich in the guyfts of the Spirit L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE M. Vicech I would haue you to descend to the particular doctrines of disloyalty broached by Michaeas in your Vniuersity for as yet both your words haue bene spent only in discoursing and äery generalityes And they are particulars only of which the law taketh hould for since the punishment prescrybed by the Law is particular it followeth that the offence must also be particular Therefore show in such and such a poynt with
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
shew their loue to the Truth by their hate to this Pillar and Foundation of Truth Besides this deportment disculps great Humility a Character euen of Christ himselfe dicite a me quia humilis sum corde so true it is that an humble man is like to a lowly vally sweetly seated Thus doing Micheas no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith of which point I am in greater hope in that it is obserued that whereas many Protestants haue becom Iewes yet not any Iew a Protestant D. WHITAKER The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope since most of these are but humane and morall inducements which stand subiect to errour and falshood and you are to call to minde that to run well out of the right way is noe better then to stand still Pálin dromêsan ' è dramêin cacôs Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ only the Holy Scriptures These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies These are of that worth as that they are profitable as the Apostle speaketh To Doctrine to reprooue to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfect instructed in all good workes of that Clearenes as that iustly they may be called lucerna pedibus meis Of that fulnes and amplitude as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted out of the booke of life if we either add or detract from thence finally of that easines and facility as that for picking out the true sence we are to receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit instructed by the Holy Ghost spiritus vbi vult spirat MICHEVS You both speake learnedly And first touching your directions my L. Card. I hold them most graue waighty Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law and the Prophets being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue and seing that multiplity of reading which your method exacts to wit of the Auntient Fathers the Generall Councels Ecclesiasticall Histories is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age my selfe not likely to liue so many years as will be answerable to so infinit a labour Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short and abreuiated course for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion Touching your graue aduice M. Doctour of relying only vpon the Writen word Grant that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define and determine all Controuersies in Religion yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one and the same text I should euer rest doubtfull once abandoning the sence giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe That no Prophesy of the Scriprure is made by priuat Intepretation And sure I am that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto that I am the more easily thus perswaded euen by both your speches at this present seing both of you do strengthen and fortifie your different iudgments touching the finall determining of Controuersies euen from the Scripture it selfe But what doth the Scripture speake different or rather contrary things Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture euer the same and vnchāgable Ego sum dominus et non mutor And indeede to speake plainly when you vrge those words spiritus vbi vult spirat whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit interpreting the Scripture I euer disliked this Principle euen before I beleeued in Christ as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other so that that man who for his Faith and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion which himselfe best pleaseth is like in my iudgment to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter then of the Elements well tempred togeather since he is in possibility Anything But to proceede seing the directions of neither of you in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them can at this present sorte vnto my case I must make election of some other method for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith And vnder both your fauours it shal be this wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament as you Christians call it I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes a Christian though as yet but a Christian imperfect and scarsly initiated So out of the same deuine Records I am instructed that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith incontaminate and free from all errour Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule who in his Epistle to the Romans much celebrateth the Faith of Rome saying To all that be at Rome the beloued of God called to be Saints Grace to you And againe I thanke my God for you c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world And yet more your obdience is published in euery place finally the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans as that he particularly euen in words ascribs one and the same Faith to himselfe and them saying That which is common to vs both your Faith and mine From all which texts it is euicted that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith Now here it comes to be examined whether Rome since her first embracing of it hath changed her Faith or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine which first the Apostles did plant in her This point most excellent Men deserus an exact discussing and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall doth pleade for my ignorance herein and makes my humble request for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment to you both to enter into a graue skirmish and feight of disputation herein Both of you are learned and therefore by vrging what can be said on either side able to accomplish this my desire both of you are charitable as I must suppose and therefore no doubt willing for my confirmation in the Christian Faith to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity as euer desirous to do good omnia sperat sustinet a charitable man partakes of the