Maiestie their honors and the Bishops may be assured hereof Or will they promise this on the worde of a faithfull minister that they will exercise their ministerie no otherwise But why then do they it not For there is no other thing required of them and it is their dutie so to doe it But what especiall regard of the peace of the Church publike orders if they had libertie to exercise their ministery according to their consciences is it likelie that our brethren would haue wheÌ„ as they were restrayned only for the abuse hereof being restrayned do thus disturbâ— the peace of the Church the publike orders of the same Yea all their especiall regarde and drift is against the publike orders And if nowe they should thus be with fauour allowed to exercise their ministery according to their coÌ„sciences what would our brethreÌ„ then spare to do against these publike orders I maruel therfore how they can thus coÌ„fidently say it is impossible but that they shall exercise their ministerie c. Whereas it is both against all sense and reason yea plaine impossible to bee graunted to them without we would with all graunt vnto them all their desires and deuises in these controuersies For the residue of this conclusion we say in part with our bretheren also Wherefore most Christian reader when thou shalt by these fewe take knowledge of these things which are contayned in this preface and in this Learned discourse praye vnto God for vs and as thy place is and so farre foorth as accordeth with thy dutie therein sollicite and furder so iust a cause as that the peace of the Church the publike orders gouernment established be not preiudiced to this end only that Christs kingdome may be perfectly established the consciences of all the godly quieted the happy regimeÌ„t of her Ma. honored with much peace ioy and quietnes both at home among vs and that it may ouerflowe to thâ— reliefe comfort and good example of other parts of Christes Church that are distressed in forraine countries To the which effects good Christian Reader cal vpon God our heauenly Father in the name of his sonne ouâ— Sauiour Christ for the illumining of his holie spirit that thy iudgement being not foreâ—talled in these matters and yet being desirous to sée the trueth and to search out the bothom of these doubtes thou mayest bee able to discerne the spirites aright to resolue and staye thy selfe on the very grounde of trueth in all these questions And so a Gods name enter nowe into the perusall and considering of this learned discourse The first booke of this defence against the learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The argument of the first Booke THE first booke is of the principles of this learned discourses platforme of the Churches gouernment of their partition thereof into a Tetrarchie of 4. estates Doctors Pastors Gouernours and Deacons and of their necessitie and perpetuitie of the perswasion to leaue our own Estate and embrace the Estate of our neighbors and of their putting back the treatise of the Christian Princes supreame Gouernment in Eccl. causes and their reasons why they will not first treate there-on vntill they haue before assigned vnto all and euerie of these 4. Estates all their places with their seuerall and ioynt offices and authorities wherein is shewed not only what daunger and iniurie is offred vnto Christian Princes but also with what vnworthie contumelies and sclaunders they are reiected to the ende of this Learned discourse A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement prooued by the worde of God THis is the Title commendatorie of this booke besides the other title which they set before it A brief or plaine declaration concerning the desires of al those faithfull ministers c. But because this later title liked them better our brethren take the former part of this title prefixe ouer euerie leafe of all their treatise this commendation A learned discourse of eccl gouernment I referre the iudgement of the learning to the learned Me thinketh our brethren should haue done better to let the discourse commende it selfe whether it be learned or vnlearned vino vendibili non â—pus haedera But what soeuer the reader can iudge of learning let him stil haue his ayme to this point that is here auouched but not likewise set vp ouer euery leafe proued by the word of God For beit learned or vnlearned proue that we yéelde And if our brethren proue it not by the word of God then we craue of them that they will cease these contentious discourses and not stande so much vpon their learning But both their learned discoursing of Eccl. gouernment and their prouing the same by the word of God shall appeare God willing to the Reader by the discoursing The Church of God is the house of God therefore ought to be directed in al things according to the order prescribed by the housholder himselfe which order is not to be learned else-where but in his holie word The first of these principles or propositions is the very worde of the holy Ghost vttered by Paul The second followeth necessarily of the first The third is a manifest trueth beleeued of all them that acknowledge the scripture of God to be a perfect rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes On these thrée principles our brethren lay their ground of al their learned discourse Which being rightly vnderstoode and building well vpon them are verie good principles or rather propositions as they terme theÌ„ Of this first is saide ynough alreadie concerning Dauids comparing him selfe to the stone in the corner of this mysticall houses building And most gladly we admit this our brethrens testimonie for the same as the verie worde of the holy Ghost vttered by Paule and that this house of God which is the Church of the liuing God is the piller and ground of truth Because it alwayes vpholdeth and maintaineth the trueth both in this matter of eccl gouernment and in all other so farre as is necessarie to saluation Albeit Christe in principall properly and absolutely is the onely ground and foundation of this house And heere by the way sith by this testimonie of S. Paul the Church which is the house of God is thus the piller and ground of the truthe If this gouernment that our brethren vrge be so necessarie and of so great moment to the house or church of God then is it likely the the Church of God though it hath not alwaies and in all places yet for the most part of time places or at leastwise in some ages and places had this gouernment maintained kept it or striued for it or else belike it was not thought so necessarie The second principle they say followeth necessarily of the first And so it doth which seconde was this and therefore this Church
or house of God ought to be directed in all thinges according to the order prescribed by the housholder himselfe Which principle is true within the boundes thereof that is to say in all thinges that he hath prescribed But if he haue not prescribed all thinges appertayning to the externall gouernment of his Church or house then are those thinges which are not prescribed by the housholder himselfe not to be so vrged as that they ought necessarily this way or that way to be alwayes directed The Apostle Hebr. 8. verse 5. saith out of Exod. 25. verse 40. Moses was warned by God when he was about to finish the Tabernacle See sayde he that thou make all thinges according to the paterne shewed to thee in the mount But the Apostle proceeding in the ninth Chapter verse 11. applying this first Tabernacle to the second which he calleth a greater and more perfect Tabernacle not made with handes that is not of this building meaning the naturall bodie of Christe referreth not this to the mysticall bodie which is the Church or house of God and much lesse to the externall forme of regiment in all matters ecclesiasticall or belonging to the Churches gouernment No not when before chap. 3. verse 1. c. he speaketh both of Christ himselfe and of his house or Church also Therefore sayeth he holy brethren partakers of the heauenly vocation consider the Apostle and high Priest of our profession Christ Iesus who was faithfull to him that hath appointeâ— him euen as Moses was in all his house For this man was counted woorthie of more glorie thâ—n Moses in asmuch as he that hath builded the house hath more honour than the house For euery house is builded of some man and hee that hath built all thinges is God Nowe Moses verelie was faithfull in all his house as a seruant for a witnesse of the thinges which should be spoken after but Christe is as the sonne ouer his owne house whose house wee are if we holde fast the confidence and the reioysing of the hope vnto the ende Here againe we sée that this faithfulnesse in all his house as Moses was faithful is not to be reckoned as though he went about to shewe vs that all pointes of the externall regiment of the house or Churche of Christe haue a prescribed order by which they ought to bee directed in all thinges but that in the inwarde and spirituall regiment thereof we should acknowledge Iesus Christ the sonne of God to be the Lord and owner of this house and to consider him as the Apostle and high Priest of our profession that is of our Christian faith and religion and to confirme our faith in him that wee are his house or Church if wee holde fast not this or that externall forme of Ecclesiastical gouernment but the confidence and reioysing of hope vnto the ende And thus farre foorth and not furder we admit this second principle or proposition And this is necessarie to be obserued because this principle is here set downe in such captious order as insinuating that Christ had prescribed an order in all thinges in his house or Church according to the prescription whereof all thinges ought to be directed In which sense it is no principle but a question betwéene vs which wâ— denie and our brethren affirme but as yet they haue not prooued it The thirde saye they is a manifest trueth beleeued of all them that acknoweledge the Scripture of God to bee a perpetuall rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes Here againe another caption is to be taken héede of in this their thirde principle which order is not to bee learned else-where but in his holie woorde For if they meane it of the order that in his holie worde he hath prescribed true it is that order is not to be learned any where else as anie necessarie prescription otherwise then as an exposition of the same order for our more cleare and fuller learning thereof And so alwayes kéeping the foundation the godlie fathers and expositors may builde there-on and the godlie gouernours of the Church may beautifie and adorne the same so that all be doone to Gods glorie and to the true edifying of the Church And so this third proposition is a manifest trueth beleeued of all them that acknowledge the scripture of God to be a perfect rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes But it followeth not héere-upon that all generall or particuler orders in the externall gouernement of the Church are not else-where to bee learned but in Gods holie woorde except they meane by Gods holie worde such as are inclusiuely comprehended and not expresselie specified in his holie worde For they their selues haue not all their orders expressely mentioned and in all thinges prescribed in Gods holy worde For example their owne communion booke entituled The forme of Common prayers administration of the Sacramentes c. They dare not auowe that all thinges therein conteyned haue not beene learned else-where but in his holie worde and are there to be founde eyther in plaine woordes or necessarie implication but because they thinke that they are not contrarie they dare auouch thus farre to call them Agreeable to Gods worde And yet as though the agreeablenesse also might be called in question they adde héere-to And the vse of the reformed Churches And as their owne booke of Common prayers vseth all these helpes to saue all vpright for feare they might be chalenged in this poynt euen so this booke which our bretheren commende vnto vs to be A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment prooued by the worde of God wee shall finde in the discourse thereof that the learned discoursers learned not all the orders prescribed there-in out of Gods holie worde but somewhat else-where Except they will likewise say it is agreeable or not contrarie to Gods holie worde Wherein also we shall God willing sée how they faile But if that answer may thus serue them I sée not whie it may not as well serue vs if we haue no other gouernement established but such as is agreeable and not contrarie to the holie word of God although it be not in his holie word expresselie prescribed Neither dooth this text of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3.17 anie more infringe euerie order in the churches gouernement that it maye not be learned else-where but in Gods holie worde then it dooth infringe euerie other order in the ciuill policie or administration of euerie mans morall behauiour that their orders also are not to be learned else-where but in Gods holie word Bicause thiâ— is a manifest truth beleeued of all them that acknowledge the scripture of God to be a perfect rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes But it sufficeth for such orders as
life should euen bowe down their myndes to loue the Gospell of Iesus Christe and his sincere Religion Certes to perswade one in speeche and wordes to embrace Christe to inuite him to godlinesse to open the waye to faith but in doings to driue him from Christe to giue an example of doing wickedlie to bring forth no fruites of faithe is no other thing then as much as the daie before thou buildest vppe so muche the daye following to pull downe and with Penelope to vntwiste the webbe againe whiche thou wast minded to haue gone thorough More-ouer before them whose condition is of very diuerse sorts wittes are not al like to temper the manner of teaching to the profit of ech one of them is neede of singuler prudence Heere-unto therefore appertayneth that whiche Clement writeth in his firste epistle to the brother of the Lorde They that Catechise that is to say they that instruct beginners with the worde it behoueth that they them-selues bee instructed For it is a matter of the soule And it behoueth him that teacheth and enstructeth rude soules to be such an one that he may bee able euen to proportion or fitte himselfe and directe the order of his worde according to the capacity of the hearer He therefore himselfe must especially be verye well learned and skilfull blamelesse ripe vnfearfull And S. Augustine at large teacheth how a Catechist or Teacher ought to rouse vp oftentimes his mynde to diligence and labour to breake of all irkesomnesse in the difficulties that hee meeteth with How furthermore it should be his speciall endeuour to frame his speeches according to the diuersitie of the persons And to deale otherwise with those that are of the Gentiles Otherwise with those that come to the Churche from among the Iewes Otherwise also with those that are of the citie and politike men Otherwise with those that are husbandmen and altogether vntrayned vp Otherwise with those that are Gramarians Orators or Philosophers Otherwise with those that are vnlearned otherwise with those that haue beene before accustomed to foule offences and to treate on all thinges otherwise with them that are thought to liue vn-reproueable Besides this there are many that feignedlie and not from the heart come to heare the doctrine some desire diuerse places of Scripture and obscure questions to be expounded vnto them From whose mindes except the scruple be in time remooued it is to be feared least at some time they leape back againe from their holy purpose Therefore these men which were called to the office of catechizing or teaching had not onely neede of learning but also of no meane wisedome Of whiche things Augustine teacheth in his booke of Catechizing the rude in the third the fift and in eleuen chapters following And against Faustus the Manichaean the thirtienth booke the seauenth chapter and so forth vnto the ending And out of doubt such an other was Panthenus the first Doctor of the Ecclesiasticall schoole after the Apostles Maister of the Catechismes or of these manner of Teachings in Alexandria Whome Clemens in his firste booke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of his scatterings or strawings witnesseth that he learned all of the Apostles Of whome S. Hierome writeth that he laboured muche in the Chruches with his liuelye voice Such an other was Clemens of Alexandria the successor of Panthenus in either function As also besides Hierome Eusebius witnesseth in the first booke the tenth and eleuenth chapters of the Ecclesiasticall Historie Such an other was Origen there succeeding in the thirde place Such an other was Heraclas vnto whom Origen deliuered vp the schoole Such an other was Dyonisius the Catechizer or teacher of the people of Alexandria Of whome Eusebius in his Ecclesiasticall Historie the 6. booke Chap. 16.19.22 speaketh Moreouer such an-other at Hierusalem was Cyrillus of whome mention is made before To conclude suche an other at Carthage was that godly man Deogratias whome S. Augustine greatly doth commend All this noteth Hyperius of these auncient Doctors Teachers or Catechists Whereby we may perceaue these Doctors Teachings and much more by their owne workes and treatises to be ful of exhortations applications Yea some of their Catechistical bookes are called by the name of exhortation as that of Clemens Alexandrinus his oration exhortatory to the Gentiles c. Neyther héerein did they inuade the office of other men For it speciallye appertayned to their owne office as Hypperius further noteth 499. For those which for the confession of the Christian truthe were deteyned captiues or ledde to punishment hee was woonte speaking of Origen and likewise of Cyrill with reasons brought foorthe out of the holie Scriptures to comforte them and to animate them vnto constancye and to many the children of the heathen vnto whom with the rules of Grammer hee had studiouslye beate vpon the points of religion to them was he an author to embrace Christianity c. And in the 3. Chap. what doctrine and poyntes of Religion should be taught in a Cathechisme fol 472. he saith The 4. heade is of doctrine but in the name of doctrine I take all those thinges which were proposed to them that were newly baptized and are exacted to be seuerely kept That is to witte of the newe life innocency of the regenerate For it beseemeth him that is baptized to become euen a newe man and by all meanes to die to sinne to liue afterwardes onely to righteousnesse and to shew himselfe to bee suche in all the actions of his life that it may be vnderstoode he vsed the mysteries trulie and with fruit Of the which newnesse of life after Baptisme Rom. 6. Knowe ye not that so many of vs as are baptized we are baptized into his death wee are buried together with him by baptisme into death that euen as Christ was raysed from the deade by the glory of the Father euen so we should also walke in newenesse of life For if wee bee grafted with him to the similitude of his death euen so shall we be to the similitude of his resurrection Knowing this that our olde man is crucified with him that the body of sinne might be destroyed that hence-forth we should not serue sinne c. Also to the Eph. 4. This therefore I say and testifie by the Lord that ye walke not heereafter as the residue of the Gentiles walke in the vanity of their mynde c. And a little after of the doctrine succeeding baptisme But you haue not thus learned Christe if so beye haue heard of him and haue beene taught in him euen as the truthe is in Iesus To lay aside according to the former conuersation the olde man which corrupteth according to the luste of error But be ye renewed in the spirite of your minde and put on the new man which is created according to God by righteousnesse and holinesse of truthe The like things thou readest Col. 3. 2. Pet. 2. In which the doctrine of
alreadie written and by treatises lately and nowe published it may appeare we seeke that which at the least in the iudgement of all true Christians hath no small probabilitie as wee iudge necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures it may please her most excellent Maiestie and their honors to appoint on both sides the best learned most godly and moderate men to debate al differences of waight betweene them and vs. So that first vppon sufficient consideration the Questions to be debated be without all ambiguitiâ— set downe the reasons of both sides without all outgoings shortly and plainely deliuered in writing ech to other that after vpon sufficient examination the reasons of both be continually confirmed and resolued till either by the euidence of trueth one partie yeelde vnto the other or the follie and madnesse of those which gaine-say it doe in equal iudgement become manifest in regarde of the contradictions and absurdities where-to they shall be driuen by the force of Gods worde It may appeare we graunt that our brethren haue both alreadie writâ—en bookes now lately published treatises but with what authoritie they could so doe that is another question if it be lawfull authoritie to do it both against lawe and authoritie we may shortly haue other vpon like ensample set out worse matters yea neuer so ill doctrine or matters neuer so much against the state For although they pretende their bookes and treatises to be neuer so good yet ought they not to be published but by good meanes also least if the good meanes be neglected ill thinges in like manner may be published But by what ill meanes soeuer they set out their bookes and treatises yet for the matter of them it may say they appeare we seeke that which at the least in the iudgement of all true Christians hath no small probabilitie as we iudge necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures Fancie might make a man bowlt branne and thinke it is flower And euen so doe our brethren imagine in this necessitie But when we shall come to the examining of these bookes and treatises yea euen of this their learned discourse compiled in the name of all the faithfull ministers and of all their desires and of all that they say they seeke for we shall finde necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures in no one thing of all their posâ—tions in controuersie except they vnderstande it so out of the Scriptures that is to say cleane without al scriptures or any necessarie consequence of scriptures And although probability ought not to carrie away the matter yet vpon better suruey thereof we shall finde not so much as any good probability that is grounded on the Scriptures but onely on the méere interpretations and sayings of some the chiefest persons in estimation on their side if at the least they agrée with them and are not caried away by their owne fancies as in the perusing of this learned discourse shall God willing appeare In the meane season sée héere how peremptorie our brethren are in their owne iudgement That which they seeke for is of no probability but as we iudge necessity say they yet they confesse that in the iudgement of all true Christians it is but of probability though saye they it hath no small probability So that they graunt at the least héereby that many if not al true Christians iudge that that which they seeke for hath no necessity of truth out of the Scriptures but hold themselues contented onely with probability For be it small or not small it is but probability of truth out of the Scriptures that they grounde themselues vpon yet think this hindereth not but that they still be al true Christians So that â—hey count them no true Christians in whose iudgement the thinges that our brethren seeke for haue not at the least great probability of trueth out of the Scriptures But if they can allow them to be al true Christians in whose iudgement these things stand but on the vncertainty of probability I trust we shal not léese our Christendome euer a whit the more â—or this but be true Christians yea their selues haue graunted vs euen in â—his Preface that we are their brethren and that we agrée in the substaÌ„ce of religion with them and therfore of necessity if they be true Christians we be true Christians also and yet we openly and constantly anow that the most and greatest of the things that they seeke for haue not at the least any probability of truth out of the Scriptures in our iudgements yea in my iudgement not one of them al any good probability but we al confesse they haue no necessity This therefore was too vnaduisedly and too peremptorily spoken and vpon too great a confidence in their cause as to hazard the truth of our Christianity for not iudging these things to bee at least probable But let the necessity or probability be tried in the debating and weighing of them let vs now sée how they woulde haue them debated and weighed It may please say they her most excellent Maiestie and their honors to appoint on both sides the best learned most godlie and moderate men to debate all differences of weight betweene them and vs. This is a good beginning that they will yéelde to her most excellent Maiestie and their honours yet at the least thus much if they woulde stande to this but when it shall come to the debating wayghing or determining they giue her Maiestie and their honours no authoritie at al. Yea they haue their selues alreadie debated weighed iudged determined and prescribed these thinges and that for necessitie in their iudgements before they come to this conference as shal also appeare by these their learned discourses and is it likely they will yéelde and reuoke this their principles set foorth in print and diuulged to all the worlde by our reasoning afterwarde with them howesoeuer by reasoning we should euict them Had it not béene better not to haue vaunted thus before hande on such necessitie and prescription But they say The best learned most godlie and moderate men on both sides should be appointed to debate al differences of weight betweene them and vs. For their partes they so glorie both of their learning and godlines that they giue this booke two titles in the one for godlinesse and moderatenesse A declaration of the desires of the faithfull ministers not prescribing but moderatly desiring in the other for their learning A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment Thus haue they set foorth themselues for these vertues But thankes be to God that they graunt yet some of our side to be also both learned godly and moderate men What the learning is of many God be praysed on our side let the learned iudge Moderation is more easily discerned as the Apostle saieth Phil. 4.5 Let your moderate or patient minde be knowen to all men But since our brethren
not approue the other For whē he reprehendeth that they prophecied barehedded notwithstāding he permitteth thē not to prophecy by any other maner of meanes but rather deferreth the reprehension also of this vice vnto an other place that is to wit vnto the 14. Chapter But may any man that shall consider the peyse of S. Paules wordes which were the words of the holy Ghost in him thinke this a sufficient aunswere to this question For doth not the Apostle speake this as well of men that haue their heades couered as of women that haue their heades vncouered And doeth not the Apostle speake it as well of prayers as of prophecying If therefore he approoue it in the men and approoue it in the prayer why approoueth hée it not likewise in the one so well as in the other And why may wee not safely conclude He improoueth that a woman shoulde prophecie bare-headed therefore if shée prophecie not bare-headed but couered on her heade he doeth not improoue it as well as wee may saye hee improoued that a man shoulde prophecie with his heade couered therefore if a man prophecie with his head vncouered hee improoueth it not or as well as wee may saye of the other action that in bothe of them hée ioyneth with prophecying He improoueth that a man should praye couered or a woman bare-headed therefore if a man praye vncouered or a woman with her heade couered he improoueth it not And so of consequence what he improoueth not that hée approoueth If S. Paule simply did improoue and by no manner of meanes permitte women to make publike prayers and altogether forbidde them to preach in the congregation there is no likelihood in the world that he would haue brought instances of such thinges as could haue no likelihood of approbation at all were they couered or vncouered in these actions And therfore this answere of Caluine can by no meanes satisfie any that shall neuer so little consider the Apostles sentence But Caluine perhaps thought it would better serue against the womā though not against the man because the man is not in other places forbidden to speake in the Church as is the woman And therefore he sayth that Paule did not reprehende this fault in women heere but referred the reprehension thereof to an other place Now although this reason indéed being generally spokē cannot be improoued but that S. Paule might reserue the reprehension of this or that fault to this or that place as it best liked the spirite of God in him albeit this place also had not béene vnfitte yet speaking of these thinges in diuerse places he speaketh not in the one contrarie to the other nor in any place is the spirite of God in him contrarie to it selfe But in diuerse places as wée shall sée anon and that by their owne confessions he approoueth the publike praying and the publike prophecying whether they take prophecying properly or for preaching made by women in the holie assemblies Therefore he may not only well approue it here being doone in such comely order as he appointeth and to aedification but also it cannot bee vtterly wholely and by all meanes improoued in any other place as here Caluine saith it is which to say is to make the spirite of God speake contradictions And are not men also in other places forbidden publikly to preach in the congregation Else how do our Breth alleage that place pag. 58. out of Hebr. 3.4 For no man may take vpon him any office in the Church but he that is called of God as Aaron was And is preaching no office And yet we sée here that vnderstāding this prophecying for preaching he speaketh it of men as well as women As Caluin testifieth himselfe vpon this saying 1. Cor. 11.4 Euerie man praying or prophecying to prophecie I here take to be to declare the mysteries of God to the aedification of the audience As afterward in the 14. chapter Euen as to pray signifieth to conceaue the forme of praying and as it were to goe before the whole people Lo here are euen our Brethrens owne wordes pag. 64. for their Pastors conceauing of publike prayer and the going before his flocke in publike prayer And yet doth S. Paule both 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 14. approue this prophecying and this praying also being otherwise decently orderly and to aedification vsed apply it not only to the Pastors but to all those among them to whom God gaue the gifte of these thinges though they had no peculiar and ordinarie Eccl. offices that exercised the same This therefore debarreth not but that although the ordinarie publike vse as taking it vpon them by peculiar office being not called orderly thereunto might be forbidden and improued not onely in women but in men yet notwithstanding it is not altogether wholy and simply forbidden and improued but that vpon such times as those were or vppon some extraordinary necessitie or occasion we see that euen publik praying and publike preaching both in men though laye men and in women that can doe the same to aedification is approued Yea no better witnes than Caluine himselfe against himselfe and euen in the very place he appealeth vnto That is to wite sayth he vnto the 14. chapter here by our Brethr. noted And haue we not heard his iudgement there alreadie speaking of prophecying that such necessitie may happē as may require the voice of a woman So that he speaketh not here of olde examples such as we cannot prescribe vpō to do the like but he speaketh of that which may now or hereafter happen and as wherein a womans voice in the publ assembly may be as requisite as at any time it heretofore hath béene But what néede had Caluine to sende vs thence to this 14. Chapter or we to heare him contrarie himselfe there When as not hauing satisfied himself belike with this former vnsufficient aunswere for this praying and prophecying of women chap. 11. he aunswereth himselfe otherwise farre better euen in that place saying there is no discommoditie in that if he meane in that aunswere we haue shewed a great discommoditie to the truth of the matter to the scriptures credite and his owne although neither this doth fitte the same amisse if we say that the Apostle requireth of women this modestie not onely in the place where the whole Church is gathered together but also in any more graue assēbly either of womē or of men such as somtimes come together into priuate houses Of which wordes I cannot sée what sense els to gather but that so it be done with this modestie heere required not to lay out their heares to the shewe as many now adayes doe especially then when they were all bare headed but vse a Matronlike modestie in couering their heades as was yet is the Greeke Asian maner though not ordinarily yet on some extraordinary occasion they might both publikely pray prophecy yea vnderstanding it
the man and of the woman praying or prophecying vse his heade which was S. Paules principall conclusion If he be couered that is not aunswerable to the comelinesse of the man If he be vncouered that is lesse aunswerable if not more vnfit for the comelinesse of the woman What shall we here doe yea though we imagined this third were an Hermaphrodites that is of both genders Man and woman except the same party also had two heades the one to bee vncouered and the other to be couered What a straunge deuise therefore is this and what a number of impossible vnnaturall and monstrous absurdities do arise if a man woulde stande in examining this interpretation I speake not this for the dishonor of them whome I honour with good heart as singuler ornaments of Gods Church in our age And yet Luther so excellent an instrument of Gods trueth and glory when hee writhed some textes of Scripture by affection more then by considerate and indifferent weighing of them into what vnnecessary misconstructions and oppositions to the plaine and easy trueth and to his owne self did he fall and caused many by his too great estimation to fall with him And therefore we must take héede howe we depend too much on Men. And if wee will holde vs alwayes to Gods worde so take it that we cary not that also away after our owne construing If it be playne and easie not to lap it in ambiguities If it be harde and doubfull to way it with other places and consider all the circumstaunces groundes and occasions And if nothing be against the faith to go with the best with the mo the better in the sense that séemeth most probable Which Beza here doth not who though in many places he deserue singuler prayse yet in some places he is too singuler which deserueth so little praise that now and then he himselfe forsakes his former translation and either on better aduice comes to other mens or chaungeth his former translation with another of his owne euen where no necessitie nor sufficiēt cause doth enforce him as euen vpon this place 1. Cor. 14.34 cited by our Brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the common translation is there true and playne ynough Mulieres vestrae in ecclesiis taceant Let your Women keepe silence in the Churches Where not onely Erasmus but Caluine also reteineth the vsuall deriued word euen from the very Gréeke in Ecclesiis whome all the commentaries of the newe writers that I haue looked vpon do follow And all our translations yea euen the Geneua translation also And yet doth Beza forsake it and translate it in Coetibus in companies or assemblies and he altereth this againe in conuentibus in meetinges together sayth that the vulgar translation in the Churches is not apt ynough in this place also in the vers following Because that a woman also is in the church that is of the number of the faithfull when she is at home Neither yet is she biddē to bee silent but in the publike assembly of the church And is this a sufficient reason to alter this word in the churches Who knoweth not that knoweth ought the this word church as it is commonly taken signifieth here not only the place where the sacred assemblies of the faithfull are made but also the faithfull persons so assembled was Beza in doubt least if this interpretation shold haue stood that women shold not speak in the Churches they shold haue bin thought to haue bin forbiddē to speak any where but to be continually in euery place silent because wheresoeuer they be yea though at home they be stil in the church that is of the number of the faithful What a néedlesse fear was this yet if he would haue mended the translation to stop this néedles fear shold he haue mended it to call it a cōpany or assembly or meeting together which though it séem to giue women some licence to speak wher no assembly or cōpany or meeting together is yet doth this indéed restrain them no further than the occasiō that Paul did speak on driues vnto True it is he afterward expoūds himself saying they are not biddē to hold their peace but in the publike cōpany of the church but these words the publike cōpany of the church are in neither of his translations For there is only said in companies or meetings together And yet what he meaneth by the publike companies of the church taking the church as heere he calleth it may not a woman speak in many companies or meetinges together of the faithful if the housholds of the faithful be called churches also may she not speake in her house neither nor to the assemblie of her houshold for fere she shold transgres this precept if they say that is but a priuate church Paul meaneth of the publike assemblies of the church although women then shall gain a great deal more liberty by this glosse then by this hard translatiō of the text yet how much better had it bin both for Bezaes estimation our edification especially for the matter trueth it self for Beza to haue left these nice poynts to haue yéelded to his M. Caluine that as necessity might require this precept of the ordinary course maketh no absolute debar to al manner of women but that nowe and then some may speake lawfully yea and their voyce is requisite euen in the most sacred publike and greatest assemblies or meetings together of the Churches I confesse as I sayd that other excellent men also vse this interpretation but they are more naked thereon then Beza is nor I accoumpt them comparable to him But neither he nor they do so satisfy the simplicitie of the text herein as Musc. and Peter Martyr do Musc. vpon these wordes euery woman praying and prophecying sayth they aske here howe a Woman shameth her heade if she prophecy bare headed when about the end of the 14. Chapter hee commaundeth them to holde their peace in the Church because it is a shame for a Woman to speake in the Churche and 1. Tim. 2. he sayth but I permit not a woman to teache What neede is there say they to bid a Woman not to prophecy bare-headed when shee may not doe it no not couered I aunswere he restraineth a Womans rashnesse that they shoulde not as often-times they are bablatiue leape foorthe to teache and prophecy beeing forgetfull of their sexe Neuerthelesse in the meane season hee doth not extinguish the spirite with the which some beeing inspired did prophecy by foretelling thinges to come Such as were Philip the Deacons daughters and many others which did prophecy according to the foretelling of Ioel Chapter 2. where wee reade this And after these thinges I will poure my spirite vpon all flesh and your sonnes and your daughters shal prophecy For such he pronounceth that they shall shame their head if they pray or prophecy bareheaded Of other he wold giue
wit not onely fayre in shewe nor onely profitable in the aduantagâ—â—ut whether it be a vertuous a iust a true lawfull and righteou◠〈◊〉 yea or no. The contrary whereof to wit vnhonest is not onely â—npleasant or incommodious but vitious vniust false vnlawfull and vnrighteous Of which sort of euill if it were being a matter pertaining not to a fewe persons but to whole estates and of such importance as concerneth gouernment in their greatest and moste necessary affayres it is likely that it shoulde be but disputed vpon of some or rather cried out vpon of all nor to be suffered in any place as contrary to the expresse law of God and to the vniuersall lawe of nature if those places Gen 3.1 Cor. 14. and this 1. Tim. 2. be against it And so by no maner of meanes to be suffered and then indéed had Caluin said the truth that al wise men did alwaies refuse it as a monstrous thing beeing against the Lawe of God and nature But sith those places as we haue prooued Danaeus granteth do not medle therewith and much lesse any other place in all the scripture hath any apparance to condemne it as a dishonest matter can we think that a matter of such moment not onely for the publike state in matters of policy in morall conuersation yea conseruation of mans life and preseruation of Gods Church and withall so often mentioned in the scripture both for the persons and for the office and for the authority of princes publike gouernors that it shoulde haue neuer directly and peremptorily bin forbidden nor haue béene pronounced to bée a thing vnhonest yea rather doth not this silence of the scripture cleare acquite it of all suspition of dishonesty And in very déede albeit some more curious and newfangled than sober or circumspect haue called the honesty thereof in question yet for the most and best and wisest part of men the honesty therof hath not bin called into question but thought to be where there is occasion thereof and that the lawes and customes beare it a good a iust a lawfull a true a right a vertuous honest matter And for proof hereof as Danaeus héere beginneth well if he would in this point so hold out and not yéelde to much to these disputers or not rather giue occasion matter for them to dispute vpon he doth mightely in my opinion confirme the honesty of it in saying that this thing hath place in Spayne England Scotland and diuers other regions For were there no moe regions where the regiment of women as lawful iust right true vertuous and honest hath place but these 3. here specified it is ynough sufficiently to enforce the honesty of it except wee shall vtterlye dishonest all these states which when such regiment hapneth chiefelye vnder GOD depende thereon As our estate dothe nowe in â—ngland and Irelande vnder our moste gratious soueraine Queene Eliâ—abeth And shoulde we nowe admit these certaine or some disputers or any other to haue it called in question whether the state and Lawes of our realme euen in the greatest matter of the gouernment thereof do mainteine a thing that is vnhonest or against the Lawe of God and nature For if it be against these places Gen. 3.1 Corin. 14.1 Tim. 2. or these places against it how is not against the Lawe of God and nature what a perillous matter were this and not onely moste daungerous iniurious dishonest and dissloyall against our lawfull soueraigne by whose happy gouernment God hath so blessed vs and doth so gratiously guide vs and defende vs and so many yeares hath done and shoulde wee nowe call her state and right into so high question by somes disputing if it might not better be called dispiting as whether it were honest or no to her Maiesties more then dishonor besides her ouerthrowe and withall our owne destruction but that also vnder pretence of the Gospell we shoulde mainteine an inconuenience worse than a mischeefe and go about to shatter all the groundes and principles of the Lawe it selfe bothe of the realme yea and of nature for the right and inheritance and call in Question euen in the greatest matter of estate sithe Englande mainteineth the inheritaunce and right of Womens regiment whether it mainteine honesty or dishonesty yea or no and whether her Maiesty and other Women princes in our and these specified regions haue or doe rather rule De facto as vsurpers than de iure as Godly and lawfull princes shoulde we not herein go far beyond the very traytors that oppose theÌ„selues only against the princes persons And what should driue any Questionists to this disputation by reason of this place the first of Timothy the second Chap. Which is but haled and wrested to this regiment Howe much better therefore is it especialle for vs whom so néerely it toucheth that as Danaeus confesseth the honesty and right of Womens regiment hath place heere with vs in Englande So with all obedience ioyfulnesse thankefulnesse and conscience to God to acknowledge the same And not vpon such bious occasions to vndermine it pretending a quarrell against Womens publique teaching which neuerthesse must must needes followe For Looke wherein their regiment consiâ—â—es therein dothe an authoritys of teachinge euen of consequence also followe If our Brethren replye that admitting a Woman to haue supreme gouernment ouer all ecclesiasticall matters so well as ciuill then may shee preach also and minister the Sacramentes I aunswere this obiection which is more fitte for papistes â—han protestantes is but a meere cauil For we say not the prince hath all the gouernment either of all ecclesiasticall matters or ciuill in his or her person to do them or to put theÌ„ in action but the Prince hath a supreme gouernment in his or her dominions next and immediate vnder God onely to ouersée to appoint to giue charge and to commaund that all those matters be duely executed and orderly put in action by all these persons to whome of duty by their functions they appertaine And so the Prince he or she without the breach of S. Paules precept or of the lawe of God may lawfully and with authority both speake and teach euen in the greatest assembly of the congregation For his or her gouernment consisteth as much in the authority of their lawfull commandementes as in any thing else belonging to their supreme regiment And take awaye the right of their so speaking which quickneth and giueth life vnto the lawes politike that they make to wit their roial assent and commanding and ouerthrowe al their gouernment And if this regiment be right and honest in England then was it neuer against the lawe of God and nature in any land And if it be so now then of his owne nature and de iure it was so euer thogh it were not euer so de facto And we haue no cause but to prayse God that Ius factum in this
the most cleare light of his confession and aduanced with the honour both of vertue and faith who by his exhortation hath sent before him a plentifull number of Martyrs with stones fire Which ioyfully behâ—lde his wife that cleued to his side wheÌ„ as together with other she was burned He himselfe being halfe burned and ouerwhelmed with stones lefte for dead While that afterwardes his daughter with a carefull seruice of godlines seeketh the corps of her father where he being founde almost dead refreshed and drawen out from his companions whom he had sent before him remained against his will But this as wee see was the cause of his remayning that the Lorde would ioyne him vnto our Clergie and woulde adorne gloriosis Sacerdotibus with his glorious Sacred Priests the abundance of our Elders being desolate And verily he shall be promoted as time shall permitte vnto a more worshipfull place of his religion when through the Lordes protection we shall come in presence In the meane season let this be done that is declared that we may receiue this gift of God with thankes giuing hoping that by the mercie of the Lord such ornaments shall be also furnished that renuing the strength of his Church he wil make our so meeke and humble consistories to flourish in honour Whereby we plainlie see not onely the Bishoppes authoritie ouer the consistorie of the Elders in making this Elder Numidicus an Elder in the cleargie and consistorie of Carthage but also that he was a Preacher exhorter of the people And that Cyprian vseth the name of Presbyter and Sacerdos indifferently as betokning one and the same office for the which we in English wanting a proper name for Sacerdos vse the contraction of the other better and lesse offensiue terme Presbyter calling them Priestes signifying héere Elders ministring the woorde and Sacramentes And of other sortes whom Cyprian calleth Presbyteros Priestes or Elders assistent to the Bishop in the gouernement of the Eccles. discipline I finde no mention nor inkling of them in all the Epistles of Saint Cyprian Neither cite I him in those editions that the Papistes haue of late corrupted him And therefore I maruell not a little that such an excellent man as Beza is God be praysed for his gifts in him was so ouershot to cite these Epistles of Cyprian for a Consistory or Colledge of such Elders gouerned by a Bishop which together with him should haue the spirituall iurisdiction and the gouernment of Eccl. discipline that were not ministers of the worde and Sacraments As for that which Gellius Snecanus citeth also out of Cyprians Epistles Epist. 2. lib. 1. there is no mention there at all of any other of the Clergie then onely of Bishops or of such Priestes as hee calleth Sacerdotes Pastores Which Epistle being written to Cornelius Bishop of Rome by Cyprian and a great number of other Bishops of Aphrica ioyned in counsell with him he vseth there this terme Colleagues meaning other Bishops that were of his owne function But if sayth he there shall bee any of the Colleagues which when persecution vrgeth them thinketh the peace should not be giuen to our brothers and sisters let him in the day of iudgement render a reason to the Lorde eyther of his importune censure or of his inhumaine roughnes Is this any thing to any gouerning Elder in the Church that is not a minister of the worde and Sacramentes As for any other Colleagues eyther of those that hee wrote of or wrote vnto or that wrote with him in this or anie other Epistle I finde none Nor our Brethren can shew any such Elders as they vrge vnto vs in all these Epistles or any other worke of Cyprian But because Gellius Snecanus adioyneth also the testimonie of Tertullian in his Apologie against the Gentiles cap. 39. which wee haue likewise alreadie séene for the manner and forme of the primitiue Churche in their publike prayers neuerthelesse to the fuller serch of these Elders which our Brethren would haue let vs againe consider what Tertullian sayth especially he going not onely immediately before Cyprian about the yeare of our Lorde 200. but being in such estimation with Cyprian that he alwayes called him his Maister I will nowe my selfe sayth Tertullian set foorth the affayres of the Christian faction that I which haue refuted the euill thinges may shewe the good We are a bodie of the conscience of religion and of the truth of discipline and of the couenant of hope We come together into an assembly and congregation that praying vnto God as though by prayers wee strined for workes this force is acceptable vnto God We pray also for the Emperours for their ministers and powers for the state of the worlde for the quietnes of their affayres and for the prolonging of their ende We are gathered together to the reciting of the diuine scriptures if so be that the qualitie of the present time doe compell vs to giue fore-warning or to reknowledge it Certainely we feede our faith with the holy speeches we erecte our hope we fixe our confidence Neuerthelesse we thicken or encrease the discipline of the maisters or of the praecepts by prouocations or inculcations At the same place are also exhortations chasticements the diuine correction for the iudgement is giuen with great waight as among them that are sure that God beholdes them And it is the chiefest foreiudgeing of the iudgement to come if any man do so trespasse that he be banished from the communicating of prayer and of the assemblie and of all the holy partaking The Praesidents or Gouernours are all of them approoued Seniors hauing obteyned this honour not with price but with testimonie What is there here in any of these wordes to prooue that these Elders which as hee termeth it praesidebant did gouerne the congregations medlâ—d not with teaching Or rather doth he not ascribe teaching to theÌ„ When 〈◊〉 saith Wee are a corps of the conscience of religion of truth of discipline and of the couenant of hope When he saith their comming together was for praiers and for recording the Scriptures When hauing added how they fed their faith with the word of God erecting their hope and fixing their confidence they ioyne this withall that neuerthelesse they do increase the discipline of the maisters by their inculcations or often calling vpon them Or if we should conster these wordes Disciplinam praeceptorum for the discipline not of the maisters but of the precepts so that we take it not that they did increase the discipline of mens commandements And doth he not also ioyne exhortations together with castigations of the diuine censure By all which and much more we may well gather out of this place that these Praesidents or gouernours of these congregations were not such as medled not with teaching For if the Elders not teaching were gouerned as Beza said in their Colleges and corporaâ—ions
of the Bishops howe were these Elders the praesidents or Gouernours or not rather the gouerned And hee speaketh of them that obtained the honour of their gouernment or Praesidentship not by price of money but by testimonie All which accordeth with our Breth owne saiâ—ngs for the election of Bishops and pastorall Elders And hee speaketh of such tried and approued Elders as Paule in pastorall Elders gaue charge to Timothie But when withall he vseth for their gouernment that verie terme which he vsed in other places speaking also of the Christian assemblies as in his booke de Corona militis where he saith Eucharistia Sacramentum et in tempore victus et omnibus mandatum a Domino etiam ante-lucanis coetibus nec de aliorum manu quam de praesidentium sumimus The Sacrament of thanksgiuing is commanded of the Lord both in the time of repast in al times yea also in our asseÌ„blies before the breake of the daie neither do we receiue it at the hand of anie other thaÌ„ of those that are our PraesideÌ„ts or Gouernors Whereby it is plaine that those of whom heere he saith Praesident probati quique Sentores the Seniors that are Praesidents or that gouerne are euerie one of them tried or approued men wer euerie one of them none other but such as ministred the SacrameÌ„ts of consequence teachers of the word And of such Elders gouerning in the Church of Christ of none other speaketh Clemens Alexandrius who also was an elder in office in time was somwhat elder thaÌ„ TertulliaÌ„ li. 6. Siromat He is in verie deed saith he an elder of the Church a true Deacon that is a minister of Gods wil if so be he do teach the things that are of the Lord not that as he is ordained of meÌ„ neither that he must be accouÌ„ted righteous that is an elder but that he which is righteous should be brought into the eldership c. Wherein making also afterward the degrée of Elder to be in dignitie different from placed betwéene Bishop Deacon he acknowledgeth no such kinde of Elder gouerning the Church in hiâ— time that is not a teacher of the word And the same also is manifest in Irenaeus who in his first booke against heresies ca. 12. saith against the heretike Marcus Wherefore iustlie and aptlie vnto such thy blindnesse the diuine Elder and fit preacher of the truth inueighed against thee c. And in the 2. booke cap. 39. speaking both of Elder in age and office he saith of Christ And so hee was a Senior or Elder among the Seniors that he might be a perfect master in al things not only according to the exposition of the truth but according to age sanctifieng together also the Seniors or Elders himselfe becomming an example vnto theÌ„ c. And againe But because the age of 30. yeres is of a young man of his first towardnesse and stretcheth to 40. euerie one wil graunt that from the 40. or 50. yeres he now declineth into an elder age which age our Lord hauing he taught as the Gospell all the Elders testifie which assembled together vnto Iohn the Disciple of the Lord. And the same thing did Iohn deliuer vnto theÌ„ Now although herein Iraeneus fouly ouer shoote himselfe in Christs age more regarding the relation and tradition of the Elders than exactlie considering the iust time yet still he acknowledgeth those that were called Elders not in yéeres but in office concerning the Ecclesiasticall state of Christ his Church to be such as taught the witnesse relation of those things that were deliuered them by the Apostles though they remembred not so well the Apostles reckoning And this he hath more plaine li. 3. ca. 2. when againe we chalenge them that are against the tradition to come to that traditioÌ„ which is from the Apostles which is kept in the Churches by the succession of the Elders they will say they being more wise not only than the Elders but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere truth And li. 4. ca. 43. Wherfore it behoueth vs to heare these Elders that are in the Church those which haue their succession from the Apostle as wee haue shewed who with the succession of the Bishop haue according to the decree of the Father receiued a sure grace or gift of the truth And in the next Chapter But such as of many are supposed to be Elders but serue their pleasures c. froÌ„ all such therefore we must abstaine cleaue vnto these which as wee haue also said before keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with their order of the Eldership shew forth the sound word their conuersation without offence to the information and correction of the residue Wherunto alleaging the examples of Moses Samuel and S. Paul he saith Euen as the Apostle Paul when he was of good conscience sayde to the Corinthians For we are not as many are adulterating the word of God wee haue corrupted nâ—ne we haue circuÌ„uented none such Elders doth the church nourish Of whoÌ„ also the Prophet saith And I will giue thee thy Princes in peace and thy Bishops in righâ—eousnesse Of whom also the Lord said VVho therefore is a faithfull agent good and wise whom the Lord shall preferre ouer his familie to giue them meate in time Happie is that seruant whom the Lord shall find so doing when he coÌ„meth What can be plainer than this to shew that by the name of these Presbyters Priests or Elders in the gouernment of the Church Irenaeus alwaies meant such as were teachers of the word and none other Iustine the martyr in his defence of the Christians vnto the Emperour Antoninus mencioneth as we haue séene one onlie gouernor of the congregation whom he calleth the chiefe brother But he telleth withal that he maketh the exhortation to the congregation before the receiuing of the Sacrament he offereth the praiers and thankesgiuing first celebrateth the whole action of the Lords supper the Deacons deliuer the bread the cup to euerie one present of other Elders or Gouernors among theÌ„ that I can find he maketh no mencion As for Ignatius because our Bre. in their pamphlet of the learned mans iudgemeÌ„t for the 3. kinds of Bishops do allow of the Bishop mencioned in Ignatius by as good reason they haue also to allow of his Elders Deacons For almost in euery Epistle if they be the Epistles of Ignatius he mencioneth especiallie these thrée maketh the Elders the successors of the Apostles In the first Epistle to the Trallians he saith Be ye subiect to the Elders as to the Apostles of Iesu Christ concerning our hope in whoÌ„ perseuering we shal be found in him And therfore ye must by all meanes please the Deacons which are for the ministerie of Iesus Christ for they are not ministers in meate and drink but of the ministerie of the Church of God
It behoueth therefore to keepe their precepts euen as the burning fire And let them be such but as for you reuerence ye them as the Lord Iesus Christ because they are the kepers of his place as the bishop is the forme of the Father of al but the Elders of the consistorie of God and ioyning together of the Apostles of Christ for without them it is not the elected church nor the collection of the Saints nor the holie Congregation And again What is the Eldership but a holie institution of a counsellour or confessour of a Bishop What also are the Deacons but followers of Christ ministering to the Bishop as Christ to the Father and working vnto him a cleane vnspottrd work euen as Saint Stephen vnto the most blessed Iames and Timothie Linus vnto Paul and Anacletus and Clement vnto Peter And in the 4. Epipistle to the Philippians Yet I saie to the Bishop and to the Elders in the Lord that who soeuer shall keepe the Passeouer with the Iews or take vp the solemnitie of their feast daies shall be compartner with them that haue killed the Lorde and his Apostles These and such other spéeches of the Presbyteral Elders do declare that whosoeuer in Ignatius name wrote theÌ„ for I dare not so boldly as our Br. doe affirme them to bee his yet in writing thus of the Consistorie of the Elders yea of the Deacons vnder them hee thought them both to meddle with teaching and with the administration of the Sacraments As for the Epistle that is adioyned in the name of Polycarpus the Elders with him it is most manifest howe they ioyned teaching to their gouerning Let the Elders bee simple in all things mercifull conuerting all from errour visiting all the sicke not neglecting the widowes the fatherlesse and the poore but alwaies prouiding good things before the Lorde and before meÌ„ As for anie other that is more suspected stuffe I cite not But be they suspected or be they not as I graunt they are verie auncient so we can finde in none of them such Elders mencioned as our Br. threape vpon vs that there were neither yet in anie ancient autentike Ecclesiasticall historie For as for that Danaeus writing of the office of Elders in Christ. Isagog part 2. cap. 10. citeth saying Lites â—utem dirimere c. But to decide debates and as out of Socrates lib. 7. cap. 37. may be gathered to behaue themselues as Iudges and arbiters I neuer read that it was the function of Elders or parte of their office This proueth nothing at all that the Cleargie of whome Socrates there speaketh were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments but rather séemeth to inferre that theâ— were and that the Bishop of whome Socrates speaketh woulde not hauâ— them drawe too much awaie from their function to the hearing and determining of such controuersies Albeit Socrates telleth that Siluanus the Bishop did it when as hee sawe the Clarkes to make a gaine by the controuersies of the striuers that from thence forth hee permitted none of the Cleargie to be a Iudge but taking the bils of those that made supplications he preferred one faithfull laie man whom he knewe to fauour that which was â—ight and good to haue the hearing of those matters and so he set free the striuers from contention and controuersie Here the Cleargie that had the dealing in those matters the Bishop by his superior authoritie tooke it froÌ„ theÌ„ appointed it not to the consistorie of Elders but to one laiâ— man But to shew more fullie and plainlie that Socrates alwaies vnderstands by the tearme of Elders onely such as we call Priestes to wit Ministers of the worde and Sacraments Let vs also sée some testimonies out of Socrates because Danaeus citeth him for these Elders And I would gladly search all the testimonies examples generallie if that Caluine Beza Danaeus or anie other author haue ought for the proofe or but probabilitiâ— of these Elders In the 3. Chap. of his first booke he saith And on a certaine time the Presbyters Priests or Elders being present which were vnder him he speaketh of Alexander Bishoppe of Alexandria and the residue of the Cleargie hee treated somewhat more curiouslie and subtillie of the Trinitie and philosophicallie proued that in the Godhead there is the vnitie in the Trinitie But Arius beeing one of the number of the Elders which in that degree were placed vnder Alexander a man not ignorant of the quirkes of Logicke because he suspected that he would afresh bring into the Church the errour of the Affricane Sabellius being kindled with the desire of contention declined to an opinion cleane contrarie to the opinion of that Affricane and affirmed that if the Father begat the sonne he that was begotten had a beginning of his being And that thervpon it is cleere that there was a time when the sonne was not that necessarily it followed that he had his being of nothing When he had concluded with this new kinde of reason and neuer before heard of he stirred vp many of them to seeke after those matters and of a little sparke was kindled a great great flame c. Wherevpon Alexander calling a councell of many Bishops he deposed saith Socrates Arius and the fautors of his opinion from the degree of the Eldership By which it plainly appeareth that these elders were ministers and teachers of the worde And to this not onelie accordeth Ruffinus lib. 10. Eccl. hist. cap. 1. saiâ—ng A certaine Elder at Alexandria named Arius a man more religious in shew and forme than vertue began to set forth certaine wicked points concerning the faith of Christ c. And Theodoretus lib. 1. cap. 2. yet more plainlie In these times saith he Arius which was in the companie and order of the Elders and had the authority of interpreting the diuine Scriptures When he saw the gouernment of the Sacerdotall Priesthood or Bishopricke to be committed to Alexander being impatient of enuie wherewith he was chafed he began to seek occasions of prouokements of discords and striuings And albeit the dignity of the man and his laudable administration brake off the web of all slaunders yet coulde not enuie let him rest The enimie therefore of truth hauing gotten this fellow he moued and stirred vp the waues of the Church and so prouoked him that he durst openly gainsay the Apostolical doctrine of Alexander As for Alexander he auouched the speeches of the diuine Scripture that the sonne is of the same dignitie with the Father and hath the same essence with his begetter But Arius fighting against the truth called him a creation and a worke made Adding those wordes that there was some time when he was not Which things may better be knowen out of the Scriptures themselues These things did he not only in the Churches continually but also in other outward assemblies and meetinges and treating vpon them house by
denouncing the finall determination of it But to stoppe this they say to whome that prerogatiue was graunted not of singular authoritie but for order sake Ergo he had héerein a prerogatiue and if a prerogatiue then it was aboue all the residue and if aboue all the residue then was it singular in him But not say they of singular authoritie If of any authoritie at all as they confessed before the Pastor hath authoritie then of singular authoritie else no prerogatiue Yea but say they that prerogatiue was graunted to him And I graunt that also for had it not beene graunted him it had not beene authoritie but vsurpation and therefore the graunt confirmes the authoritie Yea but say they it was graunted but for orders sake All the better say I that it is for orders sake and euen therefore and go no further for all the Pastors to be equall in authoritie is to bring all Synodes and Counselles and all cases and controuersies arising in them or to be determined by them both in matter of Doctrine and in the regiment of the Church into all disorder and confusion which our Brethren beginning now a little better to perceyue and to yeeld yet somewhat at least heereunto they are driuen at length to confesse and say And this place doth admonish vs to intreate somewhat of the preeminence of one Elder or Pastor aboue the rest We confesse that in euery assemblie or companie some one of necessitie must haue this prerogatiue to order and dispose the same with reason or else great confusion is like to follow But this gouernment is onely of order and not of authoritie as to propound matters to be decided to gather the reasons and consent of the rest and so to conclude c. as we see in this place Iames did of whome also we reade that he had this preeminence Actes 21.18 c. and we may gather the same Galath 2.9.12 not that Iames had greater authority in his Apostleship than Peter or Paule or Iohn or any other of the Apostles but bycause hee was chosen of the rest to haue prerogatiue of order which some one must haue in euery assemblie and such was the prerogatiue at the fyrst which was graunted sometime to the Byshop of Rome and sometime to some other Byshops to be President or Prolocutor in the generall Counselles beeing chosen thereto for the tyme by consent of the rest as the Prolocutor is chosen in our Conuocations that are called with Parliaments Therefore as it were an absurd thing for our Prolocutor in our Conuocation to take vpon him to be a controller of the whole Synode and to challenge that office to him and to his heyres for euer so vnreasonable is the authoritie that the Pope claymeth ouer generall Counselles One therefore is to be chosen by consent to be as it were the Prolocutor or moderator of order but not authoritie in euerie assemblie whose prerogatiue must so be tempered that in all things tyrannie be auoyded which we see by experience easily creepeth in vppon prowde natures to whome if you graunt an inch they will be readie to take an ell according to the prouerbe Concerning the preeminence of one Elder or Pastor aboue the rest we haue sufficiently séene alreadie at large the proofe thereof against the prooues that our Bréethren haue before alleaged for Pastors to haue no superioritie ouer theyr fellow Pastors but be all of equall dignitienitie and authoritie Pag. 23. c. Yet héeâ—e now at length in theyr treatise of the Synode they say this place meaning Actes 15. doth admonish them to intreate somewhat of one Elder or Pastor aboue the rest Thanks bée to God that they will yet acknowledge be it but this place onely to admonish them of it And yet if they search the Scripture somewhat further they shall fynde moe places than this to admonish them of this preeminence if they wyll take admonishment by them as not onely that which theyr selues haue héere noted in Peter and Iohn besydes Iames Galath 2. but also in the authoritie aboue other Pastors that Sainct Paule giueth to Timothy and to Titus and Sainct Iohn to the Angells of the seauen Asian Churches But to leaue these and other places béeing before touched since now they are content to take admonition onely of this place Actes 15. to intreate as they tearme it somewhat of the preeminence of one Elder or Pastor aboue the rest let vs heare what this somewhat amounteth vnto We confesse say they that in euerie assemblie or companie some one of necessitie must haue thys prerogatiue to order and dispose the same with reason or else great confusion is lyke to follow This is a good confession and a prettie somewhat to begin withall fyrst that among all the other assembled a prerogatiue aboue the rest belongeth not to some many or to some few but allonely to some one Secondly that this prerogatiue of some one aboue the rest is not to be in some assemblyes as in the assemblies of Synodes and Counsels onely but in euery assemblie or companie Thirdly that it is not voluntarie in euerie assemblie or companie neyther yet of decencie or conueniencie onely but it must be so and that of playne necessitie Fourthly that this preeminence and prerogatiue of some one in euery assemblie or companie stretcheth not onely to declare to moue to persuade to examine to discusse and to determine but also to order and dispose the assemblie or companie that is not only to set them in their places but to direct and appoynt vnto them how to demeane themselues in all their actions Yea but say they to order and dispose the same with reason God forbid else say I for it were vnreasonable to ouerrule in any thing against reason which were with more reason to be called disordering and dissoluing then ordering and disposing if without reason Well then say they all this must néedes be confessed or else great confusion is like to follow And is this then our Brethrens frée confession though in very good reason if they will confesse the truth they muâ—t of necessitie confesse no lesse though they will confesse no more and how then did they say before speaking of the name of Byshops that it is neuer vsed in the Scriptures for such Byshops as clayme and exercise dominion ouer whole regions and all the Pastors of the same but onely for those that be Pastors of euery seuerall Congregation hauing no superioritie ouer theyr fellow Pastors but bee all of equall dignitie and authoritie pag. 22 23. for to remitte the defence of theyr superioritie ouer whole regions to the prooues before alleaged how haue not our Brethren abused so many places in the Scripture as they cite héereto in this theyr Learned Discourse from the foresayde 23. page till the 29. concluding thus these testimonies of Scripture directlie condemne the authoritie of one Pastor aboue another
abuse and pollution beeing expreslie abolished and onely a good purpose and vse of them decreed the same are as much besides for the goodnesse of the purpose and vse for the verie authoritie of the decree to be for the time as farre foorth receyued as the other meates beeing otherwise lawfull in them-selues yet being for good purposes and vses of them by the authoritie of the decree for the time forbidden were then and for that time to be refused But that was done also say they for the forbearing the weaknes of the Iewes in abstinencie from eating bloud and strangled which was forbiddeÌ„ by God before Moses time to teach that childish age of gods people to absteine from crueltie As in Genes 9.4 Although the time before the comming of Christe bee called of the Apostle Gal. 4. ver 3. a childish age when wee were Children saith he wee were in bondage vnder the rudimentes of the worlde yet when the fulnesse of time was come and Christe reuealed receiued and the Gospell established in calling still that primitiue age a childish age we must take good heede that the Papistes and other Heretikes take not aduantage by these spéeches that say the Church of Christe in the Apostles times was but as weake as a Childe or babie and afterwarde grewe to ripe perfection And albeit I graunt these temporarie degrees were made cheefely in respect of some such persons among them that were but weake and as it were of childish age in the knowledge of Christe and the Christian libertie notwithstanding euen for these weake childrens sake the strongest and all for the time that those decrees were in force were bound to obey them And that priuate person which publikely had broken or controlled these degrees of the Church in these caeremoniall matters which onely for this expediencie were decreed though the matters otherwise in them-selues were such as might lawfully haue beene broken or controlled had greatly offended euen so whatsoeuer these caeremoniall matters that we and our Br. doe nowe striue for are otherwise in their own nature free and indifferent and so might bee receyued or refused or haue otherwise in the vse of them beene abused yet being nowe by the Church of God decreed to be well vsed and that with expresse cautions against all the former abuses of them and that with full freedome of conscience wherein the Christian libertie most consisteth what priuate person soeuer shoulde attempt publikely to breake or controll them shoulde offer manifest iniurie to Gods Church If we be the Church of God as I hope we be that thus haue decreed them They say such caeremoniall Constitutions are but temporall Neyther do we goe about to make them perpetuall And yet heerein wee must note also a difference from those Constitutions that were no longer in force then for a certaine time as the absteining from bloud and strangled and those that may perpetually bee kept if there be perpetuall causes of them And this their selues confesse that they are so long to be retained as the cause continueth sor which they were made And they say true herein But since the cause of the making of our caeremoniall constitutions doth continue howe are they not then to bee still reteined vntill the cause shall cease or that by the same authoritie whereby they were ordeyned they be also aâ—tered or remooued But say they so that if weakenesse cease or be turned to obstinacie they are no longer to be reteyned If the weakenesse say I cease generallie or generally bee turned to obstinacie that were in-deede another matter But if weakenesse cease in some and remayne in other or in some but not generally or in the moste part nor generally be turned to obstinacie but in some then the cause of the Lawe respecting not particulars doth not cease and therefore the caeremoniall constitutions decreed by the lawfull Synode are still as before to be reteined Also for order an comelisse and best aedification the Synode hath to determine what shall be obserued in particular charges as of time place and forme of preaching and praying and administring of the Sacramentes For who shoulde bee able to knowe what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods worde but they that bee teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurde that they should bee taught by such these smaller thinges as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters Vnderstanding the Synode in his proper sense for the orderlie and lawfull assemblie not of this or that particular Citie Shire or Diocesse but of the whole Prouince Realme or state and withall not preiudicating the supreme autoritie of the Christian Magistrate I grant that the Synode hath to determine for order comelinesse and best aedification what shall bee obserued both in particuler thinges and through out the whole state As not onely of the time place and forme of preaching and praying and administring of the Sacrament but also of Discipline and of Ecclesiasticall Regiment to the ends aforesaid As for the reason héere alleaged For who shoulde be able to know what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods Worde but they that bee teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others I allowe the same no further than by comparison that they which are the Teachers and Preachers of the same vnto all others haue better cause to knowe in generall what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to the Worde of God than any other haue But to say simplie as heere our Brethren doe who shoulde be able so much as to knowe it but they that bee Teachers and preachers c. is a greate deale me thinketh vnder their correction too presumptuous a question May not a man bee able by Gods grace to knowe thus much as what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods Worde except hee bee his selfe a Teacher and Preacher of the same vnto all others Yes verily and to knowe much more euen in the greatest controuersies of Doctrine as God bee praysed there are many godly learned both men and women among vs that are not vnfurnished with such knowlâ—â—ge Yea what were the teachers and Preachers at first them selues Did they take vpon them to teache and preache the same vnto all others before they had the knowledge hereof or did they teache and preach immediatly vpon their getting knowledge or was the knowledge suddenly by inspiration giuen them with their entring into this function as S. Paules wordes to Timothie may be vnderstood Dispise not the gift that is in thee which was giuen thee by prophesy with the laying on of hands of the Eldership 1. Tim. 14. And yet Timothy was able to know these thinges before insomuch that S. Paule sayth to him 2. Tim. 3.15 And that thou haste knowne the holy Scriptures of a childe And some men can excellentlie dâ—clare their knowledge also of
named but loose that name which God forbid God graunt that you may so rule your Realme of Brytannie that with him whose Vicar you are you may raigne euerlastingly Whereby it appeareth both that there were ciuill Christian Magistrates before Constantine and also what authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and constitutions with the consent of the Pastors was theÌ„ attributed vnto them in so much that Socrates sayth in his Preface to his first booke of the Ecclesiasticall Histories that after the Emperours beganne to embrace the Christian religion the Ecclesiasticall matters depended much on them yea the chiefest councels haue bene and are called together appointed by theÌ„ But now had there béen no Christian Prince all that time of three hundred yeres had this béen any debarre to their authoritie if there had béene any Nay rather how doe not our Brethrens owne wordes confute themselues And long time say they after there were Christian Emperours euen as long as any puritie continued in religion vntill both Emperors and Synodes were thrust out of all lawfull authoritie which they ought to haue in the Church by the tyrannie of Antichrist Ah ha go to then after the Emperours were become Christians they had authoritie and it was a lawfull authoritie and they ought to haue it in the Church And how were they thrust out of it if they had it not If they meane not this of their authoritie in Church matters how then do they say they were by the tyrannie of Antichrist thrust out of all lawful authoritie which they ought to haue in the Church Sith they are not yet by the tyrannie of Antichrist thrust out of all lawefull authoritie but chiefely of that which they ought with the synode and in some thinges aboue the synode to haue in Churche matters And if their authoritie had continued in possession and practise so long as heere they say anie puritie had continued in religion then had not the Emperours and other Christian Princes béene yet thrust out For thankes be to God among so many pollutions errors Idolatries superstitions ignorances and other infinite abhominations of Antichrist yet still some puritie continued in religion and euer shall do against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile Or else neither the Church of God and kingdome of Christe nor the inuincible truth of his Gospell were eternall All these spéeches therfore are too inconsiderate for so Learned a discourse as is pretended But we finde not in the scripture this authoritie graunted by Christ to ciuill Magistrates which in his and his Apostles time were not nor any promise that when they were the Synode shoulde resigne it vnto them We finde in the scripture so much authoritie graunted to ciuill Magistrates as we ascribe vnto them or as her Maiestie claimeth Example Moses Iosue Samuel Dauid Salomon Asa Iosaphat Iosias Ezechias c. But they except it was not graunted by Christ. I aunswere this is the common exception of the aduersaries and also of the Anabaptistes both of them drawing it from the Donatistes as we haue séene But it is most vntrue For vnderstande by the name of Christe the eternall Deitie of the sonne of God and his regiment in the Church before he ioyned our humane nature to his diuine nature as Saint Paule sayth 1. Cor. 10.4 They dranke of the spirituall rocke that followed them and the rocke was Christ so was this authoritie euen then graunted by Christe vnto those Christian ciuill Magistrates in his Church They reply again as they did before against the christian Magistrates that yet they were not in his and his Apostles time And I aunswere againe they were in his time that is in the time of that regiment of his Churche before that fulnesse of time wherein God sent his sonne made of woman as Saint Paule speaketh Gal. 4. ver 4. Christe had his day and a day is a time euen in the time of Abraham and in all times And yet if at any time there were not in his Church ciuill Christian Magistrates as at manie times we grant there were not both before the time of his comming in the fleshe and after yet is this right of so strong interest that time can not plead prescription against it And sith we can prooue that the ciuill Magistrate in the Church of Christe had and had lawefully this authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters before the time of Christes taking our nature on him let them shewe that it ceased vtterly or was lost or is abridged by Christes comming and then they shall say some what to the purpose Which if they can not doe then the want of furnishing the place for a time disanulleth not the right for euer And therefore this is but a mere babbling sauing Brotherly reuerence and losse of time if it be not much worse to vse and thus still to beate vppon these cauilling false and sophisticall argumentes of the olde Scismaticall Donatistes of the newe libertine Anabaptistes and of the Romane Antichristian aduersaries which they make in their trecherous books against the supreme gouernement of Christian Princes And yet we haue sufficiently shewed before especially out of Gellius that there were ciuill christian Magistrates euen in the Apostles times Yea how those also whom our Brethren misconceaue to haue béen Eccl. Gouerning and not teaching Elders Gualter thinketh them to haue béen in those times of persecutions their ciuill christian Magistrates Iudges and Gouernors that they chose among theÌ„selues till the higher Magistrates Princes Monarkes receaued the publike profession and maintenance of Christianitie But they say besides there is not any promise made in the scripture that when they were become christians the Synode should resigne it vnto them What talke they of the Synodes resigning to the ciuill christian Magistrate the authoritie that in the right of his office is due vnto him As though the Magistrate had it by their resignation or as though they before had vsurped the Magistrates authoritie No doubt but that those persons in the synode which exercised in defect of the Magistrates any part of that authoritie that is competent vnto them when their higher powers and soueraigne Magistrates became Christians yéelded all due authoritie vnto them without the synode resigning from them selues that authoritie which properly appertayneth to the synode And foÌ„r this authoritie that we acknowledge to belong to the ciuill Christian Magistrate there was and is extant in the scripture fayre recorde euen of promise for it Which as we haue seene before out of S. Augustine so because they presse still on the same argument that the Donatistes did it may suffice to represse them with Saint Augustines aunswere and his prooues of the promise for the same out of the scripture who sayth Epist. 50. ad Bâ—nif quod enim dicunt c. For when as they that would not haue iust lawes to be constituted against their impieties do say
they renounce they vaunt of long studie in which they could not for shame make any comparison therfore they flie to the example of yong Elihu to the reuelatiō of gods spirite as though their learning and these platformes came by reuelation to thē on a sudden and doe they now vpon the smattering of a little learning or for the small time beit of their earnest studie come in as it were vying withall the B. making exception of none but obiect to them all that they are not all of the best learned nor all of longest studie But what néede long study for greate or best learning among them when their gouerning Elders in euery congregatiō shal go for men learned in diuinity that haue little leasure to studie long or perhaps at all and euery Pastor holden for a learned diuine andfor a learned Preacher although he were but new made a Pastor And as for sound iudgement they measure that after their own iudgement and conceite esteéeming euery mans iudgement albeit he be of neuer so long studie or greate learning to bee no sounde iudgement if it sounde not soundlie in their forestalled Iudgement As also their ouer great preposterous zeale condemneth all the Bishops and all vs their bretheren in the Gospell of Christ to be but Popish and without all zeale if wée yeilde not straight way to them in all the deuises of these newe platformes And no maruell then if the shoue in this among the residue that the Bishops be not all of the best example Would God both they and wee and all our bretheren were if not of best yet of better example than wee be For to say the truth the better of both yea the best of vs all therein may be amended Neuerthelesse though it be an offence vnto the weake and a steyne vnto the authoritie yet not so but that the authoritie it selfe is good and maye stand euen in those persons that are not all of best example no nor all of the greatest zeale nor all of soundest iudgement nor all of longest studie nor all of the best learned neither but if the Bishops were in these thinges inferiour to some other or to them or any of them haue any defecte therein yet ought not out bretheren thus to insult vpon them being their fathers that made them Ministers of the Gospell and hauing authority ouer them in the Church were it but for the reuerence and dignitie of their authoritie except indeede they were open enemies to the Faith or manifest wicked in the example of their conuersation It should better me thinkes beseemeour brethren to followe the shame fastnesse of Sem and Iapheth than the shamelessenesse of Cham in deriding and reuealing his fathers shame But what do I speaking this of those Children that are growne into such disdaine that they will not acknowledge them to be their Fathers If they saye that in these words they do not thus accuse them all in saying they are not all of the best learned nor all of the longest studie nor all of soundest iudgement nor all of greatest zeale nor all of best example What then do they meane by these so intricate speeches bicause they still place this word all so cunningly in the middle that as it may be called in question whether they referred it to these matters as when we saie a thing is not all of the best that is to say it is but meane or base not all of the soundest that is to saye rotten or corrupted not all of the longest that is but short not al of the greatest that is but little or els that they referre the worde all not to the matter but to the persons as they are not all of the best that is to saye some of them are not of the best and so for the residue of these qualities In which later sence if they shall meane it that though they bee not all of thē of the best learned yet some of thē are of the best learned of the lōgest studie of the soundest iudgement of the greatest zeale and of the best example as it is apparant they cannot for very shame denye these things or the most of them in some of our Bishoppes why then doe they not follow those fewer some than thus for some not so good in these things to shake off all And yet it is well knowne also that there are many other God be praysed besides the Bishops that may compare with any of these our Bretheren the learned discoursers in any yea in all these things But their quarrell is here pretended onely or chiefly at the Bishoppes concluding agaynst them vpon these premisses And therefore not meete to be the onely determiners in Ecclesiasticall matters to the preiudice of the whole Synode This conclusion wee may safely admit were the Bishops neuer so excellent It is not meete neither doe they nor can they take this vpon them which were indeede to the preiudice of the whole Synode Nor the Synod receiueth this preiudice by them nor giueth such authoritie to them to be the onely determiners in Ecclesiasticall matters For euery one that is any particular member of the whole Synode hath both his deliberatiue and determinatiue voyce except wee shall speake of such determination as recollecting all their seuerall determinations pronounceth publikely the sententiall and finall determination of the matters in the name and authoritie of them all as Iames did being Bishop of Ierusalem And yet neither so all the Bishops doe it but one and the chiefest among them as the full resolution of the whole Synode But how will our Bretheren cléere themselues of this whereof they accuse our Bishoppes for they pretending to be Pastors and that Pastors and Bishops be but al one they will then be Bishops euery one that pretendeth to be a Pastor Now though these Bishops admit their gouerning Elders to come to the Synode and to be parts also of the Synode with the Pastors saying that the Synode consisteth principally of Pastors Elders Teachers and men of wisedome iudgement and grauitie as it were of necessarie regents pag. 113. And hereto they vrge the assemblie Act. 15. the Apostles and Elders came together to consider vpon this matter c yet when they come to the determination euen where they say pag. 117. the Synode hath to determine what shal be obserued in particular charges as of the tyme place and forme of preaching and praying and administring of the Sacraments they so make themselues to bee the onely determiners in all Ecclesiasticall matters that disoayning any other should so much as knowe them they say For who should bee able to knowe what order comelinesse and edification requireth according to Gods word but they that be teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others for it is absurde that they should bee taught by such in these small things as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters Doe
those thinges do appertaine onely to him and the generall Councell And here we beséech our Brethren confessing thus much against the pope as it becommeth good subiectes to their prince to aduise theÌ„selues withall of their former vnaduised spéeches pag. 9 10.84.85.117.1â—8.119 in which places besides their hard termes of Christian princes doe they not giue vnder the name of the Church her authoritie the knowing the hearing the examining the determining the iudging and the punishing of all matters and causes pertayning to discipline gouernment of the Church either to their pastors and teachers or to the Seignories of their gouernors And what differeth this from forbidding princes to meddle with reformation of Eccl. matters or to make lawes pertayning to causes of religion aunswering them that those thinges do appertayne only to them and to their consistories and to their particulaâ— Synodes or generall Councell But when he say they meaning the pope coÌ„meth to debate any thing with his Clergie theÌ„ all lawes and knowledge are inclosed in the closet of his breast And is this any more than to say not onely to the Prince but also to their owne consistorie gouernors of whom their Synodes consist as well as of themselues pag. 117. who should be able to knowe what order comlines aedification requireth according to Gods word but they that be teachers preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurde that they should be taught by such in these small thinges as ought to learne the truth of in all matters This authoritie therfore can not be graunted vnto any ciuill Christian Magistrate that without consent of the learned Pastors and Elders yea against their consent of whom as in some respect he is a feeling member he may lawfully make ceremoniall constitutions whereby the Church must bee gouerned in meere Eccl. matters Sith therfore they turne al this against the Prince is not this as much as when they come to debate any thing with their Clergie Gouernors that theÌ„ all lawes knowledge is inclosed in the closet of their breasts both from the Prince and from their owne Clergie and Eccl. Gouernors Is not this as much as when they holde their generall Counsels or Prouinciall that all the authoritie must come from them For except they doe allow it it is nothing And how farre differs this froÌ„ the Popes conceit that they also are growen so wise that neither with counsell nor without the Councel they can erre or think amisse in Eccl matters Had they a generall Councell of all those that they call the faithfull ministers that composed this Learned discourse of Eccl. gouernment Well yet there is here some good hope that when our Brethr. shall haue better bethought theÌ„ of these things which they mislike in the Pope debarring the right interest of Christian Princes the verie vggly sight thereof will be as a glasse vnto theÌ„ to sée mislike their owne spéeches and doings in taking vpon them though not the verie same yet so like presumption and vsurpation especially so many and so little states as they are farre inferiour to the Pope and at the verie first péeping out of them yea before they are come to that they would haue thus to insult not onely on the Bishops and to come and set out lawes before themselues are called vnto such authoritie but also thus to blemish and deface the Christian Princes authoritie to abase and debarre it to examine and determine yea to encroch vpon the right and interest in these matters of all Christian Princes and of their owne most godly and gracious Soueraigne But since the sight of their own description of the Popes presumptioÌ„ vsurpation doth begin here to make them stoupe somwhat to the Princes supremacy let them now in good time likewise remember their own sayings pag. 77. 78. where speaking also of the Pope whose intollerable presumption say they as we haue long since banished out of this land so wee wish that no steppe of such pride and arrogancie might bee left behinde him namely that no Elder or Minister of the Churche marke these your owne wordes well good Brethren and turne them not so off against our Bishops that ye forget your selues should chalenge vnto himselfe or accept it if it were offered vnto him any other authoritie than that is allowed by the spirit of God but chiefely to beware that he vsurpe no authoritie which is forbidden by the word of God For wherefore do we detest the Pope and his vsurped supremacie but bycause he arrogateth the same vnto himselfe not onely without the warrant of Gods word but also cleane contrarie to the same Now if the same reasons and authorities that haue banished the Pope do serue to condemne all other vsurped authoritie that is practised in the Church why should not all such vsurped authoritie be banished as well as the Pope we can alleage against the Pope and rightly that which S. Iohn Baptist did aunswere to his disciples No man can take vnto himselfe any thing except it be giuen him from heauen Ioh. 3.27 and that saying of the Apostle to the Hebrewes No man can take vpon him any honor in the Church of God but he that is called of God as was Aaron in somuch that Christ himselfe did not giue himselfe to be an high Priest but he that sayd vnto him Thou art my Sonne this day haue I begotten thee He sayth in another place Thou art a Priest for euer after the order of Melchizedech Now seeing these rules are so generall that the Sonne of God himselfe was not exempted from them but shewed foorth the decree wherin he was authorized by what rule can any man reteyne that authoritie in the Church of God that is not called therunto by the word of God All these words haue our Brethren alleaged triumphantly against the Bishops whose authoritie we haue séene to be throughly grounded on the word of God But for their Consistorie Gouernors to whome they giue such great authoritie we haue as yet after all this shuffling coniecturing pulling and haling of the Scripture of the auncient Fathers and of the old Churches practise to found it vpon we could not yet finde vpon better view therof so much as one good and substantiall proofe or authoritie for it or the example but of one such man And as for their Pastors if none be Pastors but such as are ordeyned after the forme by themselues set downe Pag. 125. saying this is the right election and ordeyning of Pastors grounded vpon the word of God when we come to search better in the word of God we finde not one Pastor so elected and ordeyned And as for their selues these faithfull Ministers none of them neyther that I can learne of were so elected and ordeyned and so they haue eyther no right calling nor authoritie at all but are méere intruders yea méere lay men or else that authoritie that they
persons being Protestants being faithfull Ministers being learned discoursers would God they would better bethinke themselues It is beyond my learning and a great scruple it is in many mens consciences that think our Br. haue set their conscience on the tenters much charged it rather then any whit discharged it do not according to their dutie therein nor that this their doing is any true or good way of reformatioÌ„ but if ought were amisse to make it much worse if not to marre it quite and to giue licence vnto such a way as would or might bring all things to an vtter deformation and confusion And here it followeth prettely at the hard heeles that might set the matter well forward And to mooue them say they that haue authoritie to put it in practise and to seeke by all lawfull and ordinary meanes that it may take place that it may please God to giue it good successe What meane they here by these perilous spéeches And is this also a part of conscience dutie and the true way of reformation to mooue them that haue authoritie to put it in practise Who are these that haue authoritie whom our Br. would by this their writing moue to put in practise this forme of reformation Would they haue any that haue authoritie in the Realme committed vnto them by and vnder the Queenes most excellent maiestie to attempt this without her maiesties authoritie therevnto whom they called before our most gracious soueraigne when they made their last protestation No wee hope there is none that in her maiesties dominions hath any authoritie committed vnto him will be moued by this writing or by any other writing or solliciting of our Bretheren to put this forme in practise without â—e haue her maiesties authoritie so to doe she hauing now God be praysed long continue it the supreme authoritie of these matters Neither should they that haue but inferiour authoritie to her maiestie yea all the Magistrates in the Realmes of her dominions holding all the authoritie that they haue immediatly or mediatly from her Maiestie and her Maiestie immediatly from God seeke any lawfull and ordinary meanes but vnlawfull and beyond extraordinarie if they should practise that this may take place without her authoritie thereunto especially it being with all the direct ouerthrowe of her chiefe authoritie They doe well to say that they would haue them do it by lawfull and ordinarie meanes wherein our Bretheren differ from the Papists that seeke vijs modis by all meanes to put in practise their desperate resolutions Which as God defeateth and our Bretheren detest so what lawfull and ordinary meanes can they imagine to put this their forme in practise agaynst her Maiesties will that may stand with her supreme authoritie And therefore in my opinion this is very ill done and daungerously spoken of our Br. to cast foorth such suspitious words as to moue them that haue authoritie so to abuse it or as though they would or should be mooued to this practise And for my parte I protest that I like all this whole learned discourse the worse that in the ende and conclusion of all it should come to this drift which verely is not pleasing vnto God nor God will euer I dare warrant it giue it good successe if the winde begin once to blow in at that doore which God forbid that euer we should see that tyme. But what is the tyme that here they speake off At this tyme to be imbraced It should seeme to be at the time of the Parliament as may appeare by the last part of their protestation saying We protest before the liuing God c. and the whole assemblie of all estates of this Realme I meruell much at this practise of our Bretheren that they are so eager in their pursuite to haue their platformes put in practise that they see not how they crosse in this doing their owne writings They are still at euery Parliament offering vp their little bookes for I forbeare to call them Libels to auoyde offence of the reformations that they call vpon vnto the high and most honourable Court of Parliament Wherein although if wee should lay together and conferre all their bookes and formes of reformation that they haue offred vp vnto the Parliaments wee should finde great varieties and some contrarieties among them yet let them agree or disagrée in other things how they shall what doe they meane herein by putting them vnto the Parliament Would they haue these controuersies to bee disputed vpon and determined by the Parliament That is cleane contrary to the chiefe materiall poynts of the very bookes themselues that they offer vp vnto the Parliament For except they will make all the Burgesses in the nether house and all the Lords in the higher house to bee Ecclesiasticall persons and either Doctors and Pastors whom also they make all Bishoppes teachers and Preachers of the word and Sacraments at least wise such Presbyters Priestes or Elders not teaching whom they call Gouernours if they shall be present as any parts and members or necessarie regents of the assemblie and not only as spectatores or auditores tantum if they shall remayne still as lay ciuill or politicke persons so that they can not by their owne Canons haue any voyces at least not determine any thing in Eccl. matters especially so great and important matters as they make them And what would they haue the Parliament then to doe in these things Nay whaâ— will they suffer them to doe Yea what would the Parliament doe when they should finde that in the very bookes offred vnto them of these matters they are prohibited to deale in these matters Yea how can they deale in these matters and allow these Pastors to come in and take them vp for their labour saying vnto them yea my Lords and Maisters dare ye take vpon you or are ye able to deale in these matters or so much as to knowe them For who should be able to know what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods word but they that bee teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurd that they should bee taught by such in these small things as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters pag. 117. and much more absurd that they should be taught by such in greater matters Yea they ought to learne the truth of them in all matters If the Parliament once heare this thunder cracke conticuere omnes intemtique ora tenebunt If some one among them perhaps doe replie and say If they will not suffer vs to haue any thing to doe in debating and determining of these matters why then a Gods name doe they put them vp to vs or what would they haue vs to do in them except they will giue vs some authoritie of them But they are so farre from giuing vs any such authoritie that they
say wee are not able so much as to knowe them No nor yet their owne Consistorie gouernors able to knowe them but onely the teachers and preachers of the same to all others And what will they then allowe to vs If the Parliament heare this man speake thus may they not thinke that man speaketh reasons and that there was little reason in troubling them continually with those matters in the Parliament house whereof they may not according to the libertie of that most honorable assemblie speake their mynds in reuerent maner pro contra freely and no man debarred of his speech or iudgement or els the house would better aduise themselues how they permitted such fellowes to come among them or to bring in such billes or bookes among them of which they must be restrained of their libertie both of speech and iudgement Yea what if now another waxing bolder in the Parliament house would tell these faithfull ministers that the matters conteyned in this learned discourse being Ecclesiasticall matters were to be consulted vpon and determined by those that were the Bishops Pastors of the Realme and Church of England and that they had a Conuocation Synodall assemblie among themselues and that they must go to them and be tryed by theÌ„ and bee as well content to submit themselues to the determination of the Bishops and Pastors lawfully and orderly there assembled as they would to haue it tryed in the ParliameÌ„t if they were all such Eccl. persons as were the other And that if they would flee froÌ„ their owne coate Eccl. company to such as were but ciuill and politick persons saue that they were ChristiaÌ„s as other of the people were they should giue an ill example preiudice their matters and make themselues and their bookes to be more mistrusted as not daring to abide the censure of the chifest professors of those matters Tractent fabrilia fabri Ecclesiasticall matters to be tryed by Ecclesiasticall persons And that this is according to their owne â—ositions For who should be able to knowe at least wise who ought better to knowe what order comelinesse and edification requireth according to Gods worde than they that be teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurd that they should be taught by such in these small things and much lesse in greater things as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters And therfore go to theÌ„ and let theÌ„ determine those controuersies If our Bretheren shall heare this tale and their owne words thus duelie returned on themselues may they not then thinke they haue well helped themselues by putting vp these matters to the Parliament And if the Parliament should aunswer them thus should they not aunswer theÌ„ aright But if now they had rather reuoke some of their positions giue the ParliameÌ„t authority to deale herein than to haue them be determined by the Bishops what on the other side would they haue the Parliament do without the authoritie of the Prince Yea how chaunce they put not vp their bookes writings first to her Maiestie mooue her first for if they accounted her Maiestie indeed the supreme gouernor of all persons in al her dominions in all causes so wel Eccl. as temporall would they haue the Parliament decree those things without her Maiestie Or the Parliament wherof her Maiestie is the supreme gouernor to determine these things without any debating of them Or if they should be debated vpoÌ„ who should rather do it theÌ„ the Clergie And haue not al that haue bin assembled together alreadie both the Bishops the whole Conuocation consulted debated and determined alreadie on the matter And if they would haue her Maiestie the Parliament to deale further therein haue they not done that also Hath not her Maiestie ratefied and authorized al their articles that the Conuocation agreed vpon And hath not the whole Parliament also approued allowed so ratefied and confirmed al the Communion booke besides the acknowledgement of her Maiesties supremacie all the articles agréed and decréed vpon all or the most or chéefest of the lawes and orders Eccl. now standing in force and established amongst vs And would they haue them reuoke cancell all that they haue doone in these matters or what else would they haue the Parliament herein to doo If they offer to dispute of these matters either before the whole Parliament or before anie by the Parliament deputed to heare the disputation betwéene vs of these controuersies doo they hope to dispute better and with more deliberat iudgement of that they shall saie ex tempore than that they haue with aduisement written or can write thereon or that we can dispute woorse or not so well as they persuade themselues they can Or doo they thinke as Aeschines said Quid si ipsam belluam andissetis they shall better persuade and mooue the hearers of them more by their liuelie spéeches than by their learned writings and so win it that waies Verelie wée refuse no waie what it shall please our most gratious souereigne and hir most honorable counsell or the high court of Parliament to appoint if that would serue the turne for anie further triall of renewing neuer so often these matters by disputing and calling them in question againe and againe for God be praised in so good a cause we néed not feare the euent they that could so win the garland let them weare it But we maie easilie sée before the disputation shall begin that all this would not serue their turne in these controuersies which the word of God hath not expreslie decided but in generalitie referred to these thrée heads comlinesse order aedification Who shall iudge and determine of our disputation they haue before hand debarred the prince and all that are not teachers and preachers and both the parties in controuersie are teachers and preachers and they saie it were no reason that we being the parties in controuersie on the one side though we be teachers and preachers should be determiners iudges what is comlinesse order and edifieng in these things and maie not we saie the same to them againe that they being also parties in controuersie on the other side though they be teachers and preachers it is no reason that they should be determiners and iudges what is comlinesse order and aedifieng in these things and when shall then these matters be iudged and determined Except we would yéeld to them or they would yéeld to vs or both to some other as to hir maiesty and the ParliameÌ„t But if they shall so doo they should conuince themselues before hand that the forme is vntrue and false which they haue alredie before hand not onlie auowed to be true but so determined alredie and so before hand peremptorily prescribed both to vs and to the Parliament to the Quéens maiestie also that we must all yéeld of
l. 1. than 830 l. 6 are not 831 l. 13â— is 836 l. 22 dele the heaâ—ing 839 l. 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 840 l. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 841 l. 1 1. Tim. 4.844 l. 9 some gouernement in the church seperated both from others and from this sole 85 1 l. 46 neither 855 l. 42 vnpreaching 856 l. 8. perusall 876 l. 28 proportion ib. margi Theophilact 787 l. 9 life 883 l. 13 the. 914 l. 13 Epistle 922 l. 37 yee 923 l. 40 of elders 924 l. 26 them 938 l. 21 driueth 942 marg 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 943 l. 36 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 962 l. 21 driue vs. 972 l. 3 chosen counsels 975 l. 3 dele for 993 l. 13 whosoeuer 994 l. 6 is 996 l. 37 assessors 1002 l. 35 they 1003 l. 8 Sari 1007 l. 28 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1029 l. 4 that 1037 lâ— 35 any thing 1044 l. 19 is 1048 l. 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1052 l. 10 meere 1057 l. 4 confute 1062 l. 24 and him 10â—3 l. 42 disputed 1114 l. 33 to be 1116 l. 27 or shee 1120 l. 17 communion 1138 l. 32 them 1144 l. 2 discourses and. 1152 l. â— all alike 1164 l. 1 seate l. 14 came l. 32 confirme 1176 l. 26 as 1182 l. 25 then no. 1295 l. 14 distractions 1198 l. 28 dele worthie 1204 l. 13. humor 1209 l. 36 to 1216. l. 9 still 1236 l. 4 seuerelie 1243 l. 12 is 1244 l. 6 which 1251 l. 37 crie 1254 l. 21 dele pro. 1255 marg proiudiciall 1256 l. 22 without 1261 l. 3 reference 1266 l. 2 no. 1287 l. 13 Seigniorie 1317 l. 28 the. ib. l. 39 40 Lord Bishop 1325 l. 3 reference 1348 l. 2 they â—350 l. 41 seate 1357 l. 2â— God 1361 l. 16 be 1365 l. 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1366 marg artic ib. marg reference These lines following are to be referred vnto the endes of their seuerall pages as they are here quoted thus as they ministred before by preaching vnto his beautie which hath there for the time bin vnworthilie defiled here committed the churches consent yet that the regiment is a consent of them is doubtfully Gal. 5. â— 1. Pet. 5.8.9 Psal. 133. Prou. 6.16 Ioh. 54.27 Ioh. 15.11.12 Ioh. 16.33 Gal. 4.15 Math. 12.28 1. Esd. 3.35 Phil. 4.5 Eccl. 4.28 Rom. 12.18 Phil. 1.9 10 11. The Preface 1. Pet. 1.9.10 Lamen 1.2.3 4. Ioel. 2. Bridges Our BrethereÌ„s abusing of the spirit of God and of the Propheâ—s lamâ—tations S. Peters Testimony wrested The acknowledgement of our sins and Gods wrathe The fault in our selues not in our Lawes and Orders The True Causes of our ioye mourning 1 Iohn 2. The causes of our brethrens mourning Preface Bridges Her Mâ— his most ho. counsell wrongfully challenged Her Maiest reigne not tempestuous Her Maieâ—â— comfort to the ministery Her Maiest her moste hon counsels zeale care wrongfully burdened of our brethreÌ„ for not driuing out of the Cananits c. How farre christians are charged with that coÌ„mandement Difference of the opeÌ„ couert obstiuare and weake papists Her Ma. her moste hon counsels zeale care in planâ—ing pruning and hedging of the L. vineyarde Our bretherens restraining the authority of her Maiesty VVhom our brethren meane by Cananits Foxes The impediments of endâ—ng this ciuill warre The raisers of this ciuill warre The Preface Nehem. 4.2.3.4 Nehem. 4.7 Neh. 6.5.6 Neh. 10.11.12 Ioel. 19. Amos. 8.11.12.13 Bridges VVhom our brethren cal Cananits foxes How these termes redounde on themselues The peaceable and reasonable way that our brethren deuise of reconcilement The regiment cannot be christian and happie wheral the godly learned and faithfull ministers sâ—ffer affliction Our brethreÌ„ graunt the church of Eng. regiment to be christian happie Our brethrâ— causers of their ownâ— afflictionâ— The afflictions whereof our brethreÌ„ complaine Our Bretherens vnbrotherly sclauÌ„ders Our bretherâ—ns and our building Our bretherens nearer imitation of those Hammonits c. Who are lyker to vnder miners RevYlinge The displacinge of our Bretheren Our Brethâ—rens Learning godlines The Priestes mouâ—ning The famine prophesied of Amos. 8 11.12 13 How we are rather glutted then famâ—shed with Gâ—ds word Our bretherens contentions make the worde the searser Preface The way that our brethreÌ„ seâ—ke of reconcilement The inconuenience of publishing bookes without authority The thinges that our brethren seeke for haue no necessity of truth out of the Scripâ—ures No good pâ—obability of truth out of the scriptures Preface Bridges How farre forth they yeeld autority to her Maiesty The learning godlinesse moderation of the debaters If the debaters shoulde be moderat men then should our brethren vse more moderation in their tearmes not be so peremptory in their dealing The debating of the questions the allowing of them The manner of the debating Who shal be the determiner Preface Act. 15.7 1. Cor. 14.13 32. 1. â—or 2.4 Bridges The naked triall of the matter Our brethreÌ„s desire to conferre by waye of prophesying Lordlie carriyng awaye the matter Preface 1. Cor. 14.33 Act. 14.16 Bridges Bitternes to be left off Charging of men dead and aliue Mouing affections The alleaging of the late and ancient writers Preface Bridges Our bretherens presupposal of our obiections The 1. obiection of coÌ„parison betweene the Archb. B. our bretheren ComparisoÌ„ of age and youth CoÌ„parison of learning CoÌ„parison of authority The 2. obiection of our bretherens chalenge to be not vnlike the papists chalenge The 3. obiection of preiudice to the estate of gouernement established Bridges Our brethrens answer to these three obiections The ambiguitie of this answer The quieting of all The remoouing of the plagues Our brethrens bold and humble request vpoÌ„ their knees Preface Ioh. 32.7.8 Ioh. 32.21.22 2. Chron. 30.1.5.23 ver Act. 15.23 Gal. 1.1 Act. 11. â— 2.3.4 c. Doctor Whitegiftes book p. 389. Bridges Our bretherens aunswere to the first obiect in yeelding for yeares learning Their exception of the reuelation of Gods spirit Our Replie Our bretherens examples Ezâ—chias The Apostles and Elders Act. 15. S. Paul Gal. 1. â— Ezechias dealing with the priests and Leuites The exaÌ„ple of Hezechias and the Leuites coÌ„ futeth our brethren The example also of the apostles and elders Act. 15. is cleane against theÌ„ Our bretherens gifts in interpreting the scriptures not denied Though diuerse doctors in learning excelled yet in gouernmeÌ„t they were inferiour Our bretherens haling of the Archbishops wordes Our bretherens intricat speeches Our bretherenâ— refusall to subscribe to the Arch. aâ—ticles The articles 1. Article of the supremacy the 2. article of the communion booke The 3. Arti. of the book of articles Ano. 1562 The inconueniences of refusing to subscribe to the â—se â—seâ—â— articles The cleargâ—es subscription in K. Ed. time How dangerous our brethrens pretence is of straining conscience Preface Bridges ComparisoÌ„ of number for fewnesse or multitud Our bretherens exceptions from our nuÌ„ber Of ignoraÌ„t
ministers Of subscribers with limitation Of Dissembâ—eâ—s Of secret lamenters of their open subscribing The practise of Arius the Priscillianistes Preface Bridges Our bretherens aunswere to the 2. later ob vnder shewe of pâ—rspicuity is very intricate Our bretherens distinction of matter and manner Our Bretherens our agreemeÌ„t in the SubstaÌ„ce of Religion Our difference concerning gouernment Oâ—r bretherens vrging thâ— alteration of The state Our Brethrens preteÌ„ce of remooving Ignonoraunce Poperie Rebellion VVhether this alteration would not be occasioÌ„ of more ignortnce in the ministery The feare of more breeding Pop. by this alteration This alteration more inclinable to sedition Our bretherens aunswer for the manner VVho call the matter to the manner of a tumultuous reasoning we or they The ornaments of wit memory and vtterance The manner of reasoning that our brethreÌ„ set downe The moste part of these matters haue beene already decided by this maÌ„ner Whether our brethreÌ„ would staÌ„â—e to this manner What is heere assigned to her Ma. their honours The communicating thereof to the people These matters alreadiâ— determined ratified All that was graunted to her Ma. and their H. was but onelie for maÌ„ners sake and resolues to nothing The momeÌ„t of the gouernment pretended Our bretherens desires preiudicial to her Maiesties chiefest authoritie Preface Bridges Our bretherenâ— 3. obiection not satisfied of preiudice to the state eâ—tablished Our bretherens confident opinion of recouering fauour and exercise of their ministerie How our brethren became ministers Our bretherens offer to be tyed to haue speciall regard to the peace of the church and publike orders The epiloge of the preface exhorting to praier for these thinges The title of our bretherens booke Page 1. The vaunt of learning in the discourse The proofe by the word of God The learned discourse Page 1. 1. Tim. â— 15 The definition of the Church 2. Tim. 3.17 Bridges Three principles or propositions whereon all this learned discourse is grounded First that the Church is Gods house 1. Tim. 3.17 The Church the piller of â—he truth 2. that all things shold be directed by the housholders prescribed order Howe farre this rule holdeth Hebr. 8.5 Hebr. 9.11 Hebr. 3.1 The captious setting downe of the 2. principle The 3. principle That the scripture teacheth all the Churches gouernment The caption of this third principle The forme of common prayer by our bretheren prescribed Agreable to Gods worde though not prescribed The learned discourse Page 2. What ministers are apointed in the church Bridges The issue of these three principles Our bretherens foundâ—â—ion and the fouÌ„dation that â— Cor. 13.11 It sufficeth not to build on Christ but also to take heede howe we bâ—ild on him Diligence and reuerence in searching the scriptures Vrging of things read in the scripture as necessarie to saluatâ—oÌ„ that are not necessarie Our bretherens to hard a censure of tâ—e greatest paâ—te of Christes church Our bretheren heerin are of Harrisons opinion against â—artwright The learned discourse Page 2. Ephâ—s 4.11 1. Cor. 12.28 Bridges Thâ— gifâ—â— offices meÌ„tâ—oneâ— Ephes. 4.11 Pastor and teacher The Apostles neither words nor scope set downe a perpetuall forme of externall gouernement in thâ— church 1. Cor. 12.28 Gouernors Neither in this place the example sets downe any perpetuall order of the churches externall gouernment The examples scoâ—e The learned discourse Page 2. and 3. Bridges The confusednesâ—e of our bretherens wordâ— The distribution of offices in regions cities and townes for orders sake and for verie necessitie Paule and Barnabasses ordeâ—ning elders Titus limited to the region of Creta Titus office and authoritie in his limited region The giftes c. what office the elders had that Titus ordeined The proofe in Titus of Episcopall and Archiepiscopall iurisdictioÌ„ The learned discourse Page 3. Bridges The diuerse giftes mentioned in these places The leaâ—ned discourse Page 3.4 5 6 Matt. 28.19 Mark 16.25 Acts. 1.25 Acts. 1â— â—â— Acts. 13.2 Acts. 8.5 Act. 8.14 Act. 21.8 â— Tim. â— 5 Bridges What gifts and offices were temporall what perpetuall Moe ordinarie gifts then our brethren mention The giftâ— of rulinâ— The learned discourse Page 7. 8 VVhat offices remainâ— in the church Bridges Our Bretherens Terrarchie of 4. Persons their dissent from those our other Bretheren which make à Pentarchy of 5. or a Tritarchie of 3. A greater Mysterye in contending for this Cater-gouernment of these 4. cornered Persons then the contention was before against the 4. cornerd caps The necessitie that they make of this Tetrarchie Mens following the deuises of their owne braine No warrant of this Tetrarchie in Gods word Tetrarchy The exercise of the primitiue church The bringing in of all kinde of fals doctrin The beginning of the mysterie of iniquitie The pure Church When Gods ordinance was changed Archb. B. â—boue all these Teâ—rarkes Archb. The office of Archb. B. the readiest way to represse Antichrists pride and tyranny The breach of the Arch. and B. offices authorities was the readiest way to Antichristes pride and tyrannie The Archb. office a better stop against antichrist then thâ—se Tetrarkes The euil officers not the office of Archb. B. brought in false doctrine The state of the refor Churches The Tetrarchy commended The restoring Eccl. gouernmeÌ„t in the reformed Churches The bewtiful state of our neighbours refoâ—med Churches The state of the ref Churches Our bretheâ—ens defacing of our estate The state of the Primitiue churches governement not restored Resoning the office of gouernours Arch. Bi. not to bee displaced by restoring the state of the Primit church VVho deface the bewty of the reformed Churches The state of our neighbors No reformed Churches but in some points of gouer diffâ—r one froÌ„ another Differences eueÌ„ in their booke of common prayer Our neighbours experience no necessary paterne to vs. The demur of this question Emulation of our neighbours state Our owne â—stâ—te Our vnthaÌ„kfulnesse for our estate The harde-state of our neighbours Churches The defacing of our state Oâ—r bretherens disordered speeâ—hes of our disordered state Tâ—e vpbraiding of our labors Our coÌ„forte of our labours The cause of our labours hinderance The Christian prince repelled What would indeede make the state disordered Our bretherens conclusion cleane excludeth the Prince and geueth the directioÌ„ of al Eccl. matters to their 4. Tetrarckâ— The Christian prince excluded The learned discourse Page 8. Bridges The obiection why the treatise of the Christian princes supremacy is not first coÌ„sidered Our bretheren foresaâ—â— the obiect in their Preface The Christian prince repelled The tardie comming of this obiection The CaptioÌ„ of these wordes Eccles goverâ—ement The Princes supr gouernmeÌ„t The Papists selaunder of her Ma. The princes supreame gouernmeÌ„t ouer al Ecc. persons in al Ecclesi matters VVhat belongeth to the Eccl. persons and what to the Prince Good reasoÌ„ that al Protestants should think that the Princes supremacie should bee first treated on Christian princes haue a supreame authority in
Whether our bretheren theÌ„selues satisfie the godlie meaning of the statute The Statute Anno 13. The godlie meaning of the statute flâ—â— against our Bretherens discourse How our Bretheren ouerthrow their own ministery How our Bretheren are in daunger of losing their lyuinges by the godlie statute Our bretheren impugning the booke of articles Our brethereÌ„s aduised impugning the articles and maintaining doctrine contrarie thereunto The 34 article of the traditioÌ„s of the church The 35. article of homilies The 36. article of consecrating of Bishops ministers Two pastors in euery congregation How directlie our bretherens learned disc is against these articles The learned disc pag. 130 131. Bridges Two Pastors at least in euerie congregation One Doctor also at least in euery congregation The Number of the gouernors and Deacons not determined At whose charges all theâ—e must be maintayned The factions arising by 2 equall pastors A new disposing of all the parishes in England New disposing of parishes The learned disc pag. 131. Bridges Our Bretheren hauing all thinges at their pleaâ—ure Abuses creeping in after our bretheren haue all thinges at their pleasure Grounds of Gods word Difference of the order grounded vpon gods word and abuses rising of mans corruption What grouÌ„des of Gods word our bretheren alleage The pastors members of the synod The learned disc pag. 132. Bridges What the pastors haue as members of the synod The reformation of the corruptions in Poperie Reteyning corruptions How we reteine anyething that hath bin corrupted The learned disc pag. 132 â—33 and 134. Particular Synods Bridges Corruptions of paâ—ticuler Synods Ordinarie fees of officers The endes of liuings offices and fees The fault of the officer and not of the office Our Brethrens pitie on the poore ministers Our Brethrens mockerie Faultes in Officers Extorting money for â—eâ—ing letters of Orders The dutie of lawefull fees in Registers c. Our bretheren loth to shewe their letters of orders Buying of Bookes For dinners such like matters Selling buying of bookes The presentâ—eâ—â—s not â—eformed PresentmeÌ„â—â— The presentment no more hearde of Reformation of faultes The Summoner caryinge forth the citations and excoÌ„muications The presentment hearde of Bribes not preuayling General coâ—â—â—â—â—ions Absolution not for money The learned disc pag. 123.125.136 137. Choosing of Clearkes of the conuocation house Act. 15. 2. Cor. 4. Bridges Our generall conuocations Our Brethrens contumelious speaches of Chauncelors Lawyâ—â—s Chauncelors and Lawyers Chauncelors or Lawyers in our conuocationâ— Whether our Chauncelors or Lawyers in conuocations be more lay vnlearned in diuitie then our bretherens gouernors our brethenâ— obiecting to chauncelors Lawyers The Bishops seuerall place that th◠〈◊〉 learned 〈◊〉 ninitie Chauncelors Lawyers beare not the greatest sway in our conuocations The Bishops seuerall place in the conuocation Seuerall place The Apostles example Act. 15.6 The Apostles were seuerall by themselues and yet ioyned with the Pastors and the multitude The Bishops higher in thoritie The decrees arâ— of the whole synod not of the Bishops â—â—lie Speaking in the conuocation How euery oÌ„e of the house may speake in the conuocation None excluded the house for not subscribing to the Bishops dâ—cree Subscribing to the articles Whether the booke of articles conteyne any errouâ— Our Brethrens owne acquittaunce for the truth of our religion The distinctioÌ„ of the Canonicall and Apocryphall booâ—es The booke of articles not erroneus The names number of the Canonicaâ—l bookes The numbeâ— and namâ—s of the Apocâ—yphall bookes in the old testâ—ment The canonicall scripture In what words this grosse error should lye The bookes that were neuer doubted of Some of the canonicall doubted of The apocrpha Our Brethrens to quicke censure Ieronimus in prefarioneÌ„ in libros Salamo The eâ—â—â—matioÌ„ of the â—pocâ—phall bookes In 〈◊〉 confesâ—ion 〈…〉 1 de scâ—iptura pag. 10. Aâ—t 6. 〈…〉 Aphoris â— The 1. 2. booke of Esdras Hieronimi pâ—satio in 1. Esdras 〈…〉 Our Brethrens 2. challeng of of the booke of articles for grosse and palpable errours The 17. article of predestination electioÌ„ Election Nothing in this article of Predestination and Election but sounde doctrine The 16 article of sinne after Baptisme Departing from grace How we may depart from grace Diuerse graces of the holy ghost may bee geuen to those that are not elected How the elected may depart or fall â—rom grace The state and coÌ„fidence of the elected Our Brethrens sclaunder of the Bishops for diuers grosse palpable errours The articles with proues The learned disc pag. 136. Bridges Article 6. The articles briefelie set down without their proues testimonies Articles not erronious Satisfying the ignoraunt How any in the conuocation house may be heard How our bretheren ofâ—eâ—ed to be satisfied Satisfiing our Bretheren Confuting the Bishops How â—arâ—e of our bretheâ—en are from those partes wherewith they burden the bishops The state of our brethrens new pastorship The true pastors description Our Brethrens accusation of our Bishops Our Brethrens commendatioÌ„ of themselues Defacing our Bishops Learning Longe studie Our Bishops accusation Sound iudgment The best example Determining in Synods Determining Ecclesiasticall matters The Pastors determining How our bretheren deale in synods with their owne gouernors Our Brethrenâ— wordes returned home Preiuaâ—ceâ—â— the synod Whether our Bishops or these Pastors do more preiudice the synod Our brethrenâ— conclusion The whole ministrie The learned disc pag. 137. Bridges The whole ecclesiasticall ministerie and all the duties and authorities pertayning The diuersities of our Bretherens discâ—â—ries The reâ—ders dutie in these controuersies The treatise of the princes authorithie Our Brethrens entrie into the treatise of the Princes authoritie Our Brethrens dealing with Christian princes in these matters The learned disc pag. 138. Gods soueraigne Empire Bridges The title of the Princeâ— supremacie The vnderstanding of the title of supremacie Our Brethr. exception of Gods soueraigne Empire Gods Empire entire Gods empire kept whole by the Princes supremacie Our Brethr. graunt of the Prince to be highest ouer the persons The Eccl. Gouernors How farre our Brethr. graunt the Princes supremacie ouer their Eccl. gouernors Supremacy ouer all persons Our Brethr. reseruation of the Princes supremacie in the matters The learned disc pa. 138. 139 Bridges The Clergies temporalties The Christian Princes supremacie farre different from the Popes The blasphemous chalenge of the Pope 〈…〉 and these Tetrarkes yoake The Clergies holding their temporalties of the Prince Our Brethr. gouernors incroching on the Prince Euery prince ought to cast off the yoake of the Popes and of these new tetrarks subiection The learned disc pa. 139. 140 The Princes supremacie in Eccl matters Bridges The Princes authoritie for Eccl. matters Our Brethr. speeches against Princes dealing in eccl matters How our Brethren incâ—rre the lâ—ke dealing that they repâ—chende in the Pope for nâ—iâ—sing Princes and the Clâ—â—gie The Pastors supremacie in Eccl. matters Our Brethr. owne sayings rightly returned on themselues These Gouernors Pastors not in Script