excused in your iudgement by ignorance concerning any positiue commaundement of God but out of doubt there are many points of truth reuealed by God onely as positiue not as such meanes to saluation that without the beleefe of them a man cannot be saued Adde hereunto that a Christian may be ignorant of many points held by the Church and that by negatiue ignorance because he could neuer come where he might heare that the Church beleeued such and such things It is therefore an vnreasonable thing to condemne all ignorance for heresie and a most vncharitable conceit to cast all into hell fire that beleeue not in euery point as the Church generally doth yea though they know what the Church mainteines be of a contrarie mind Your proofe which is a comparison of likenesse or equality betwixt infidelitie in denying all Christian religion and heresie in not beleeuing some points of it is a great deale too weake Similitudes argue indeed but rather by way of illustration then proofe And there is no equalitie betwixt denying all and doubting of some The former absolutely ouerthrowes true religion the latter onely misconceiues some points leauing the grounds of truth vntouched and beleeuing them as most certaine A. D. § 6. Fourthly I may confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers First of S. Athanasius in his creed which is commonly knowne and approoued of all Quicunque saith he vult saluus esse ante omnia opus est vt teneat Catholicam fidem quam nisi quisque integram inuiolatamque seruauerit absque dubio in aeternum peribit Whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is needfull that he hold the Catholicke faith which vnlesse euerie one doe keepe entire and vnviolate without doubt he shall perish euerlastingly A. W. If the ancient writers should affirme a thing so vnreasonable there were good reason for a man to looke for some proofe of it out of the Scriptures But no doubt we shall finde your citations of their writings as much to the purpose as we haue done your former arguments The first you alleadge is Athanasius in his Creed to which I answer that Athanasius speaks not of all points reuealed by God but of those substantiall matters which are there set downe by him and namely of the Trinitie of persons and Godhead of our Sauiour Iesus Christ This appeares by the last verse of the same Creed where he thus concludeth This is the Catholicke faith which except a man beleeue faithfully he cannot be saued But Athanâ—siuâ— hath not comprehended all points of religion in that Creed for he leaueth out the buriall of our Sauiour Christ vnlesse you will say he put his going downe into hell for it neither doth he require in that place any other point as necessary to be beleeued to saluation but those onely that he there reciteth which must be kept entire and vnuiolate of euery man that will be saued A. D. §. 7. Qui sunt in sacris literis eruditi saith Saint Basil ne vnam quidem sillabam diuinorum dogmatum prodi sinunt sed pro istius defensione si opus est nullum non mortis genus libenter amplectuntur Those that are well instructed in holy Writ doe not suffer one sillable of diuine doctrine to be betraied or yeelded vp but for the defence thereof if need be doe willingly embrace any kinde of death A. W. That of Basil is lesse to the purpose For first he saith nothing of any doctrine propounded by the Church or of your vnwritten traditioÌ„s but only of the Scriptures And how makes this for the beleeuing whatsoeuer the Church wil deliuer without which in your iudgement faith cannot be one or entire Secondly he speakes not of all ignorant men whose faith vpon paine of damnation you will haue entire concerning euery point but of those onely that are learned in the holy Scriptures or at the most so farre as they are learned in them I astly what saith he of these but that which we alwaies require that a christian should not suffer any sillable of true doctrine to be betraied This makes against you who rest wholly vpon Popes and Councils and by that meanes oftentimes betray the truth of God manifested in the Scripture yea so farre are you from mainteining euery sillable of it with hazard of your liues that you doe what you can for shame to destroy it all You Papists depriue the people of them altogether at least for their priuate reading howsoeuer your Pope Pius 4. makes a shew of permitting it You haue thrust out the Authenticall copies of Hebrew and Greeke and in steed of them authorised a corrupt Latine translation which no man may refuse vpon any pretence though it haue 8000 places as Isidorus Clarius a great learned man of your owne affirmeth in which the sense of the holy Ghost is changed yea Cardinal Hosius blusheth not to write That it were better for the Church if there were no written Gospell extant I omit your blasphemies against the Scriptures whereof I haue spoken otherwhere A. D. §. 8. Nihil periculosius saith Nazianzen his haereticis esse potest qui cum integrè per omnia decurrant vno tamen verbo quasi veneni gutta veram illam ac simplicem fidem dominicam inficiunt Nothing can be more perilous then these heretickes who when they runne vprightly through all the rest yet with one word as with a drop of poyson doe infect that true and sincere faith of our Lord. A. W. What if Gregorie Nazianzen complaine that heretickes which held most points soundly according to truth as Arius Eutyches Macedonius Nestorius and diuers other did were very pernitious to the Church because they did more easily and secretly poyson the truth of doctrine by their heresies Will it follow hereupon that therefore a man cannot be saued vnlesse he beleeue euerie point of truth reuealed by God or that a man hath no faith because his beleefe agrees not in euery small matter with other Christians Remember I pray you we denie not that faith should be entire but that it cannot be auaileable to saluation if in any one point it misbeleeue Thus haue I examined the first part of this your Treatise of Faith which I know not how I should apply to your maine syllogisme implied in your preface when you shew the vse of it in any part thereof I will giue you answer accordingly A. D. CHAP. V. That there must be some means prouided by almighty God by which all sorts of men may learne this faith which is so necessary to saluatioÌ„ A. W. The title of this Chapter is so propounded that your meaning may easily be mistaken There must be say you some meanes prouided May not a man gather by these words that as yet there are no such meanes prouided where as you would haue vs beleeue that God hath already made prouision of fit meanes to that
whereupon he beareth himselfe so high and stout I make no doubt but we shal heare of you in this Treatise till when I forbeare to say anie more A. D. §. 4. But suppose one could assure himselfe that he were taught by Gods Spirit immediately what is the true faith in all points in such sort that he could erre in none as it is not the manner of Almightie God to teach men immediately by himselfe alone or by an Angell but rather as the Scripture telleth vs Fides ex auditu Faith is bred in vs by hearing and is to be required ex ore Sacerdotis out of the mouth of the Priest and is to be learned of Pastors and Doctors whom God hath appointed in his Church of purpose to instruct vs and continue vs in the ancient faith But suppose I say that one could assuredly perswade himselfe to be immediatly taught of God what is the truth in all points how should he without testimonie of miracle giue assurance to others that he is thus taught Especially when he teacheth quite contrarie to the Catholicke Church which by plaine promises and testimonies of Scripture we know to be taught of God A. W Hitherto you haue prooued that a man cannot assure himselfe that he is infallibly instructed by the holy Ghost Now you are to shew that howsoeuer the point might be cleere to him yet he hath no meanes to perswade other men thereof but that still there will be cause of doubting whether he be so taught or no. But by the way you tell vs that it is not Gods manner to teach vs immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angel but rather as the scripture telleth vs faith is bred in vs by hearing For the generall that God teacheth not immediately we are wholy of your opinion and that the ordinarie meanes of faith is preaching but we see no sufficient reason to disable the word of God in the scripture as if it were not of force to bring forth the same effect where Gods ordinance of preaching cannot be had or is not neglected For since the matter deliuered in true preaching and reading the scripture is all one vnlesse it be verie apparent that the holy Ghost wil not giue a blessing to him that readeth hauing not opportunitie to heare out of question faith may come by reading Faith saith Bellarmine cannot arise in the heart but by diuine reuelation which is either immediately from God alone or by the instrument of the word preached or read And whereas the Apostle speaketh in that place of preaching and hearing it is not his purpose to disable the word read but to shew partly as otherwhere that the meanes of saluation were not nor could be deuised by man but proceed wholy from God partly that no man may excuse himselfe by ignorance because God hath sent his seruants into all parts of the world to giue notice of the way of saluation without which commaundement of his no man might haue vndertaken the office of preaching the Gospell either by word of mouth or writing and without the Gospell had bene published no man could haue beleeued For as it is in the same chapter a little before How shall they beleeue in him of whom they haue not heard and how shall they heare without a preacher And how shall they preach except they be sent Faith then is by hearing that is as one rightly expoundeth it by the sense of the scripture truly vnderstood I do not equall reading to preaching nor promise any blessing but rather threaten a curse where men refuse to heare the Pastors and Ministers of the seuerall congregations wherein they liue or any other that by lawfull authoritie preach truly and faithfully but I would haue no man by any conceit weaken the power of God speaking in his word to all that can and will reade and heare Now to your argument He that hath not testimonie of miracles cannot giue assurance to others that he is infallibly taught by the Spirit of God But a priuate spirit hath not testimonie of miracles Therefore he cannot giue assurance to others that he is infallibly so taught First I note two things in the propounding of this reason the one that you adde an exception according to your custome the other that you seeme to giue ouer great force to miracles Your exception is that he can giue no assurance if he teach contrarie to the Catholicke Church why so Because we know that she is taught of God Suppose that to be true yet may he giue assurance to them that know no such thing of the Church and so be to them the rule of faith But it is worth the marking that you preferre miracles before the authoritie of the Church For by them a man in your opinion may haue assurance to others that he is taught by the holy Ghost though he teach quite contrarie to the Catholicke Church But the Apostle hath accursed them that receiue any other doctrine then he taught though it be preached by an Angell from heauen What will become of the faith of such men when Antichrist comes with signes and lying wonders But why should I aske that question Your selfe and the rest of your popish brood haue answered it alreadie For you are made drunke with the cup of fornication of the whore of Babylon and bewitched with the miracles of that great Antichrist the Pope of Rome to beleeue lies against the manifest truth of God in scripture But we haue a most sure word of the Prophets confirmed expounded by the Apostles contrarie to which or without warrant of which we will beleeue nothing as necessarie to saluation for all the miracles that your Antichrist or the Diuel himselfe can worke For mine owne part vnder correction I speake it I am not perswaded that euer any true miracle was or shall be wrought for confirmation of false doctrine how soeuer the Diuel may serue his turne by a shew of such matters But it is all one to the moouing of a man whether the thing done be in truth a miracle or onely such in his opinion Be it neuer so true it may bring no credit to any point of doctrine contrarie to the word of God in the scripture Yet since false shewes will worke the same effect in their hearts whom God hath giuen ouer to the beleeuing of lies that true miracles will me thinkes I see no sufficient cause to imagine that God will employ his infinite power to the countenācing of any vntruth where no such thing is needfull I say then for your proposition that no assurance can be giuen either without or with neuer so many miracles if a mans doctrine be contrarie to the teaching of the Church when the Church teacheth according to the Scripture But in those points wherein the Church shall faile of her dutie the exposition of the word may giue assurance of truth spoken by
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
of the Church so that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainely know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it is not a good marke to know the true Church by But true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it Therefore true doctrine is no good marke to know the true Church by Your Minor is false in both parts of it First it is vntrue that true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church yea many a true Church may hold some errors and many an hereticall Church some truth onely the fundamentall points are necessarie to the being of a true Church Secondly though true doctrine be in the belly of the Church as indeed there is no true Church in which it is not yet is it not so shut vp in it as you imagine For it is first and principally in the Scriptures where it may be found without any such authoritie of the Church as you dreame of yea I haue shewed that the Apostles themselues did not beget faith in the hearts of them to whom they preached by any authoritie of the Church but by euidence of the truth it selfe which they taught Concerning your proofe from Austins authoritie I first answer that he expoundeth not that place according to the literal meaning of the Prophet who speaketh not of any belly of the Church but saith that those lewd men of whom he speaketh haue alwaies bene giuen to naughtinesse from their mothers wombe These wicked ones saith Vatablus haue gone astray euer since they came forth of the womb they they haue erred euer since they were borne Yea Austin himselfe as your Glosse saith sometimes expoundeth it otherwise then here God saith Austin foreknew sinners euen from the wombe as he said to Rebecca So doth Ierome also vnderstand it so Theodoret. But let vs take it as Saint Austin doth here mystically expound it what will you prooue by it That truth is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she deliuer it by her mouth There is no such word in him no such thing to be gathered out of him His conclusion is that therefore they which differ from the true Church in doctrine are in error which is certainly true concerning fundamentall points and verie probable in all other points whatsoeuer The other part of your Minor is that true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it For the disproouing whereof it shall be sufficient to call to minde that which I haue often answered concerning those who beleeued by the Apostles ministerie without any consideration or thought of their being sent by the true Church but onely being conuinced by the manifest truth of that which they deliuered concerning forgiuenesse of sinne by our Sauiour Iesus Christ Your proofe out of Austin is insufficient as it may appeare in this sort If Austin say that he should not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse he were mooued by the authoritie of the Church then true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it But Austin saith so Therefore true doctrine is so shut vp in the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it I denie the consequence of your Maior First because as Austin himselfe saith of Cyprian we are not bound by the authoritie of Austins iudgement as if his writings were Canonicall We do Cyprian no wrong saith Austin when we distinguish his writings whatsoeuer they be from the Canonicall authoritie of the diuine Scriptures And againe I take not Cyprians writings for Canonicall but consider of them according to the Canonicall and allow of that with his commendation which agreeth to Scripture but by his leaue refuse that which disagreeth from Scripture This minde carried Austin to other mens writings this minde he desired other men should carrie to his Secondly I denie the same consequence because Austin might be mooued by the authoritie of the Church to acknowledge the Gospell for true and yet without the same authoritie learne out of the Gospell so acknowledged which is true doctrine which false Concerning Austins testimonie first it is manifest that he deliuereth not a rule for all men to follow as if by should not beleeue he meant that a man ought not to beleeue the Gospell nor sheweth an impossibilitie of beleeuing it vnlesse a man be moued by the authoritie of the Church but at the most declareth that the authoritie of the Church preuailed with him so farre as to make him acknowledge the Gospell for true which else he had either not knowne or doubted of Secondly it is obserued according to the rest of his writings that the Latine word he vseth in the African dialect signifieth Had not beleeued so that the sense is I had not beleeued the Gospell as the truth of God if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me thereunto The first motiue was the authoritie that is the learning consent holinesse of so many worthie men as from time to time had held and did hold the Gospell to be the truth of God Vpon this ground Austin gaue himselfe to the studie of the Scriptures and by the euidence of truth deliuered in it discerned that it was the word of God according to the report and reputation commonly held of it This sense agreeth with Austins purpose who to refute the Manichees that tooke their master Manes for the Apostle of Christ thus reasoneth against them I beleeue not saith Austin that he is Christs Apostle and then demaundeth of the Manichee what course he would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith he you will read the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manichaeus person out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell Then follow the words alledged by you I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me This is yet more cleare by that which Austin writeth afterward First saith he we beleeue that which yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we do beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming enlightening our minde within But howsoeuer we vnderstand it Austin speaketh not of true doctrine shut vp in the Church so that it cannot be knowne to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie which is the point in question but onely of acknowledging the Gospell to be the word
or happinesse This done thou shalt be sure to find by the euidence of truth manifested in those bookes that they are sent from God and not deuised by man If thou liue in such a place as affoordeth the interpretation of these bookes by the ministery of men vse that singular blessing of God with reuerence and care to vnderstand and thou shalt by the mercifull teaching of God acknowledge these books to be the word of God ordained for the saluation of thy selfe and other This will some man say may perhaps breed a perswasion that these bookes are from God but how shall we come to be infallibly sure of it How else but by the worke of the spirit of God in thy heart What say you must we runne to reuelations Who knowes the secrets of God but the spirit of God The truth it selfe discerned by that light which the spirit kindleth in our hearts worketh assurance of beleefe to which the testimonie of the spirit is added for our further confirmation Neither is this any other reuelation then you Papists require in this case For according to your doctrine no man can be perswaded infallibly of the truth of the Scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall teaching of the spirit otherwise he hath not faith but opinion of these matters Onely herein stands the difference betwixt vs that you say the argument whereby the spirit perswades vs to acknowledge the Scripture is the authoritie of the Church we affirme it is the euidence of truth which he makes vs to discerne by our vnderstanding enlightened and to approue by our will thereto inclined through his mightie and gracious worke vpon our soules The second part of your minor is that we could not haue knowne the Gospels of the foure Euangelists to be canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Thomas if we had not the testimonie of the Church Of the falsnesse of which opinion I shall need to say little because it is refuted in my answer to the former part For this knowledge is not bred in vs by resting vpon the Churches authoritie but by yeelding to the euidence of the truth discouered to our hearts by the teaching of the holy Ghost Concerning the authoritie of the Church in this point it were a presumptuous and vnreasonable thing for any man without very good proof or great likelihood of reason to deny or doubt of that which hath bin auouched so many yeares by the whole Christian world But to make question of the bookes of Scripture whether they be the word of God or no and to denie that there is any meanes to know them for such but the authoritie of the Church is the next way to open a gap to Atheisme to lay open Religion to the scorne of the world Can I not know the Scripture to be of God but by the authoritie of the Church How shal I then know it at all since it is not reasonable to beleeue there is any Church that hath such authoritie but by the warrant of the Scripture They do all they can to turne reasonable creatures into beasts who teach vs that we must beleeue the Church cannot erre because the Scripture saith so and yet denie that we can know there is any Scripture but by beleeuing it because the Church saith so This is to dance in a circle as if a man were coniured that he could not get out of it How shall I know there is a Church by the Scripture How shall I know there are any Scriptures by the Church Would your proud Clergie thus make fooles of Christian men if they did not despise them as voyd of all reason I wonder how your Pope Cardinals Bishops and the rest of your Cleargie can for beare laughing when they looke one vpon another and remember how they cosen and if I may vse the word in a matter of such importance gull the world with such palpable fooleries But your strumpet of Babylon hath made the Kings of the earth and all nations drunke with the cup of her fornications exalting her selfe aboue all that is called God and making her selfe the God of her slauish vassals But the Lord is iust who according to the Apostles prophefie hath sent the world strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And certainly if there were not a great measure of 12. blindnesse and sottishnesse in the hearts of men that Gods purpose might take effect it were vnpossible that reasonable men should so be lead by the nose to errour and destruction A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke whereby to know the true Church then contrarie to that which hath bin proued the authoritie of the Church should not be a necessarie meanes whereby men must come to the knowledge of the true faith For if before we come to know which is the true Church we must by an other meanes haue knowne which is the true faith what need then is there for getting true faith already had to seeke or bring in the authoritie of the same Church A. W. This fourth reason and the next labour to proue that part of your first assumptiō in this Chapter which we deny not that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is not a good marke of the Church It would therefore be but lost labour to spend much time in the examining of them yet somewhat I must say and first to the former If the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke to know the true Church by then is not the autoritie of the true Church a necessary meanes to know the true doctrine of faith by But the authoritie of the true Church is a necessary meanes to know the true faith by Therefore the true doctrine of faith must not be foreknowne in all particular points as a marke to know the true Church by Your conclusion is no more then we grant the consequence of your maior about which you take some paines needs not your helpe for the proofe of it Your minor is false That which you brought before to prooue it before was answered A. D. §. 6. Fiftly if before we giue absolute and vndoubted credit to the true Church we must examine and iudge whether euery particular point of doctrine which it holdeth be the truth with authoritie to accept that onely which we like or which seemeth in our conceit right and conformable to Scripture and to reiect whatsoeuer we mislike or which in our priuate iudgement seemeth not so right and conformable then we make our selues examiners and iudges ouer the church and consequently we preferre our liking or disliking our iudgement and censure of the interpretation and sense of Scripture before the iudgement and censure of the
the truth to flie to the Scriptures And Tertullian reiects that which is brought if it be not in the Scriptures Origen saith Christ is no where to be sought but in the mountaines of the law and the Prophets Yea Ierome makes the Scriptures the bounds of the church beyond which she may not go Are you able to shew this authority in all particuler points of Controuersie whereof a man may doubt Are you not faine in many particulars to deny the sufficiency of the Scriptures and to run a madding after traditions What talke you then of shewing sufficient authority The bestauthority you can alleadge for many matters is the Popes will who cannot erre as you ridiculously imagine And this authoritie is all the reason you haue in diuers points except such stuffe as Durād brings in his Rationale diuinorum officiorum wherof many of your own men are ashamed I had thought your Friers vow of obedience to their superiours or at least the Iesuits special vow of blind fold obedience head bene the height of all perfection in this life but I perceiue now that there is a greater opinion of holinesse in these vowes then there is cause why For you tye the obedience of euery Christian in such sort to the authoritie of the Church and indeed of his particular pastor yea of euery Priest or Iesuite that comes licenced by Blackwell or some new Garnet that be must beleeue without enquiring any reasō whatsoeuer such a fellow shall deliuer to him for truth This is the obedience one of your Cardinals speakes of Obedience without reason saith Cusan is full and perfit obedience namely when a man yeelds obedience without requiring any reason as a beast horse or other obeies his maister So doth your Popish Clergie vse the people as men do their Asses make them beare and do what they list yea euen to the attempting of most horrible and incredible treasons against their Soueraigne and countrey I will not now dispute what agreement there is betwixt faith and reason nor whether of them is the former nor in what case a man may require reason onely that no man may conceiue amisse of our doctrine concerning our demanding of proofe for that we are enioyned to beleeue he is to vnderstand that we aske no farther proofe but to be perswaded that the point deliuered to vs is warranted by Scripture Let it be neuer so much in seeming contrary to reason if it be agreeable to Scripture we hold our selues bound in conscience to take it for truth though we be no way able to answer such reasons as we know are brought against it Neither yet do we rest satisfied as soone as some place of Scripture is alledged in a doubtfull matter but here indeed we hearken after reason Yet not to prooue that true which we find affirmed in Scripture but to make vs perceiue that such and such is the meaning of the Scripture Whatsoeuer the Scripture saith we acknowledge to be absolutely true so farre as it is deliuered for true by the holy Ghost But what the sense of the Scripture is we thinke it must be prooued by the true vse of reason according to the certain principles of diuinitie and such helps as obseruation of circūstances vnderstanding of the tongs conference of like places logical discourse with such other helps reasonably affoord vs. But why should you find fault with demanding reason or not be most willing ready to ioyne it to your authority since as Cusan saith faith is not abased by reason but exalted euen as water in a vessell supports and lifts vp oyle As for your proofe that therfore we may not demand a reason nor so much as enquire whether the points that are taught vs be sutable to the Scripture or no because Christian beliefe must onely be grounded vpon the authority of God speaking by the mouth of the Church we say that you auouch that which is not true For Christian faith must be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the pens of his Apostles and Prophets in the Scripture not vpon the authoritie of any company of men liuing from time to time in the world The Church you dreame of will I doubt not in another part of my answer be shewed to be nothing but a fancy and a gay word to deceiue the simple when as by it you meane no more but your clergie or perhaps your Bb. onely assembled in a Councell or the Pope himselfe alone who can with no more reason be called the Church then the head may be tearmed the body or the whole man if I should grant you that he is the head which is both false and absurd The Lord vseth not the authoritie of men to enioyne what they list for a matter of faith but their ministery to beget faith by declaring what he hath reuealed in the Scripture through euidence of truth and power of exhortation testified and made effectuall by the mightie grace of the holy Ghost in the hearts of them that shall be saued A. D. §. 11 The which briefe and compendious resolution of faith whosoeuer will as euery one may securely and as in the discourse following shall be declared must necessarily embrace beside the ease he shall also reape this commoditie that cutting off all occasions of needlesse and fruitlesse doubts questions and disputes concerning matters of faith wherin vnsettled minds spend their time and spirit he shall haue good leisure and better liking then ordinarily such vnquiet mindes can haue to employ his endeuours more fruitfully otherwayes to wit in building vpon the firme foundation of stedfast faith the gold and pretious stones of Gods loue and other vertues in practise whereof consisteth that good life which maketh a man become the liuing temple of almightie God the which temple Gods spirit will not onely visite with holy inspirations and blessings oftentimes in this life but he wil also inhabite and dwell continually in it both by grace here and by glory in the other most happy and euerlasting life A. W. The securitie that ariseth from resting vpon the authoritie of the Church is freenesse not from danger but frō care This latter I confesse will easily be wrought by this perswasion in the heart of a carelesse worldling or a man superstitiously ignorant if he can be senslesly obstinate inough in keeping his eyes and eares from seeing and hearing the truth of God in the Scripture for to such men God sends strong delusions to beleeue lyes that they may be damned which haue not receiued the loue of the truth that they might be saued But alas what shall this ease aduantage them but onely that they may go laughing to destruction as a foole doth to the stocks and whip What necessitie can there then be of embracing such a dāgerous resolution Besides the ease you tell vs now of another commodity that may be reapt by embracing that
must be entire Can you giue me a sufficient reason of this difference A. D. §. 1. This one infallible faith without which we cannot please God must also be entire whole and sound in all points and it is not sufficient to beleeue stedfastly some points misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately other some or any one A. W. There are two things to be considered in your propounding of this questiō concerning the entirenesse of faith in what sense all points must be beleeued and what it is to misbeleeue or obstinately not to beleeue Whatsoeuer is deliuered in Scriptures is a matter of faith because it is the word of God who can neither deceiue nor be deceiued and hath propounded it to men for a truth to be beleeued But yet there is a great difference betwixt things set downe in Scripture and that difference is in 2. respects For neither are all points therein true in the like sense neither is there like necessitie of beleeuing euery particular Concerning the former the generall reason why all things in the Scriptures are true is this because all things therein are recorded deliuered by God for true therfore questionles they are true yet as once before I noted onely so farre forth true as they are intended to be held for true by the holy Ghost the author of the Scripture Whatsoeuer is registred therein by vvay of report as a story is to be taken as true onely in respect of story that we may not doubt whether such or such things were done and said or no. There is no doubt to be made but that the fiue bookes of Moses the bookes of Iosua Iudges Ruth Samuel Kings Chronicles c. containe a true and certaine story of those things whereof they intreate But in these bookes we haue some worthy and holy speeches of godly men some leud and blasphemous words of profane wretches The former are to be acknowledged for the truth of God euery way As for example it is true that Iacob vttered those prophesies of the twelue Patriarks his sonnes and it is also true that those prophesies of his were the very truth of God It is as true that Rabshaketh deliuered those blasphemous threanings against the Lord and his people but it is not true that those words came from God as Iacobs did so Iacobs were to be taken as euery way true Rabshakeths onely as truly reported from his mouth Now that all points are not alike necessary to saluation no man can make any question if he remember that a man may be saued though he haue neuer heard of many things that are recorded in the Scripture which is the case generally of the greatest part both of Protestants and Papists and hath alwayes bene the case of Christians in all ages As for misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately one of these differs a great deale from the other and the latter of the two was needlesse if the former can be proued For if mistaking some point of doctrine be damnable it is out of doubt that obstinate refusing to beleeue the same point must needs make a man much more liable to damnation But indeed misbeleeuing is not in all points so dangerous though of it selfe as a sinne it is subiect to be punished with the eternall wrath of God in hell fire To make plaine that I say A man may misunderstand diuers places of Scripture and thereupon hold that to be true which is false and yet be saued for all this error For example that I may giue instāce in a matter of no small importance How many Christians yea how many great Diuines haue bin deceiued in the vnderstanding of our Sauior Christs genealogie and by their misconceiuing of the Euangelists haue fallen into no smal error that Salomon was the father of the Messiah By which opinion to omit many other things that I may not be too long the truth of a prophesie vttered by Ieremy which makes Ieconiah childlesse hath bin ouerthrown from whom our Sauiour must needs haue descended if he had bene the sonne of Salomon as some erroneously gather out of Saint Mathew and not of Nathan as it is manifest by S. Luke he was Shall I exemplifie this matter in another point The Apostles themselues for a long time euen til after the ascension of our Sauiour into heauen and till the comming of the holy Ghost vpō them looked for the establishing of an earthly kingdome in this world by their Lord and maister Did they not slip into this error by misbeleeuing the prophesies of the old testament concerning the Messiahs kingdome yet were they out of danger of damnation and in the state of grace all that time because they rested on our Sauiour Christ as the spirituall Sauiour of their soules that should tak away their sinnes and bring them to euerlasting life in heauen though they erroneously hoped for a temporall kingdome also The other branch of this distribution which concernes obstinately not beleeuing though it be a farre greater sinne then the former yet it is not such that it doth absolutely cut a man off from saluation This obstinate refusall to beleeue is either of ignorance or of wilfulnesse if a Christian stand stifly in some false opinion which he certainly holdeth to be true in his error the fault of his iudgement may continue without the damnation of his soule If wilfully he refuse to beleeue that truth of God which he discerneth no man can promise him any hope of saluation without true repentance This I speake vpon a supposition that it is possible for a man not to beleeue that which he perceiueth to be true though indeed there is a contradiction implied herein For to beleeue is to assent to the truth which a man cannot chuse but do that sees it that is no man can think the same thing in the same respects true and false But this not beleeuing in such a case is a frowardnesse of the heart not yeelding to acknowledge that he knowes rather then a false opinion in the braine by which a man is misled We are further to obserue that there is a second difference in this point in regard of the matter which is not beleeued If a man in his ignorance deny to beleeue that there is but one God that there are three persons that Iesus is the Messiah that we are redeemed by him that we are iustified by faith without workes or any other fundamentall point of religion he doth thereby shut himselfe out from all possibilitie of saluation as long as he continues in these errors or any of them But other points there are and those many more in number which a man by reason of his ignorance may obstinately refuse to beleeue and yet not be excluded out of heauen for such his error Let the former examples serue for breuities sake I haue bene longer then I would or meant to be but I was desirous to speake plaine
Apostles because they spake immediatly by the direction of the spirit and therefore could not possibly erre in any point whereas all other men are subiect to error and their doctrine to examination ere it need be credited Secondly we must remember it doth not follow that if our Sauiour said whosoeuer beleeued not the Apostles should be damned then he that beleeues not the Ministers now in all they propound to be beleeued should be therefore liable to condemnatiō I haue stood the more vpon this proposition because the consequence being true may breed an error in the conceit of many if the reason of it be not truly vnderstood Your Assumption or minor is thus to be limited according to that which I before deliuered He that beleeues the Apostles spake immediatly by the inspiration of the spirit of God and yet doubts of the truth of some things they preached cannot without reforming this error be saued because he holds that the holy Ghost may inspire an vntruth No more can he that doth not beleeue they spake by such inspiration For of them our Sauiour hath absolutely said He that despiseth you despiseth me The second limitation is about the things themselues The ignorance of some points deliuered by the Apostles vtterly excludes a man out of heauen some other again may be vnknowne and a man notwithstanding that his ignorance be saued Therefore though our Sauiour except no point nor distinguish betwixt matters of doctrine yet the not beleeuing of some is no farther damnable then a man doth wilfully refuse to beleeue that which he confesseth to be truth in his heart or at the least in which he thinkes the Apostles were deceiued or which he despiseth as needlesse and so condemnes the wisedome of God in propounding it to be beleeued A. D. §. 3. And this not without reason for not to beleeue any one point whatsoeuer which God by reuealing it doth testifie to bee true and which by his Church he hath commaunded vs to beleeue must needs be damnable as being a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will But all points of faith are thus testified by God and commaunded to be beleeued otherwise they be not points of faith but of opinion or some other kinde of knowledge Therefore all points of faith must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued beleeued I say eyther expresly and actually as learned men may doe or implicite and virtually as vnlearned Catholicks commonly doe who beleeuing expresly those articles which euerie one is bound particularly to know doe not in the rest obstinately doubt or hold some errour against the Church but haue a minde prepared to submit themselues in all things to the authoritie of the Church which they are sure is taught and directed by the spirit of God and doe in generall hold for vndoubted truth whatsoeuer the Catholicke or vniuersall Church doth beleeue A. W. Now followeth the second proofe of your assumption in this manner Euerie notable iniurie to Gods veritie and disobedience to his will is damnable But misbeleeuing or absolutely not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will Therefore misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is damnable To let passe this craftie conueyance whereby you still shuffle in the Church whereas without it the matter is as true and the proposition as perfect I answer to your assumption that all misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing is not a notable iniurie to Gods truth nor a great disobedience to his will where it proceeds simply of ignorance and not of wilfulnesse except in such cases as I shewed in the end of the last section which I speake not to excuse any man as if he did not sinne in misbeleeuing or as if there were some sinne not deadly according to your erroneous conceit but onely to distinguish notable iniuries and great disobedience from some kinde of misbeleeuing The conclusion is thus to be conceiued That misbeleeuing is in it selfe damnable not that no man can be saued which misbeleeueth This distinction of beleeuing expresly and implicitly as you terme it confirmes part of that which I haue hitherto said for by your confession there are some points to the beleefe whereof a general faith will not serue the turne but a man must know the particulars and assent actually to the truth of them For example it is not enough for a man to beleeue in grosse that he must be saued by such meanes onely as God hath reuealed and the Church hath propounded to be beleeued but it is absolutely necessarie to saluation that he know what the Church holdeth in this case concerning redemption by our Sauiour Christ and in his heart acknowledge the truth thereof Againe there are many other points which so a man neglect not the meanes to know them may be vnknowne and beleeued onely in generall without danger of damnation by reason of such ignorance Now this generall beleefe is not as you falsely say to be folded vp in the faith of the Church but to be tied to the Scripture all things wherein I acknowledge to be most true and beleeue all points whatsoeuer as they are eyther expressed or contained in Scripture howsoeuer I be ignorant what is true touching perhaps very many particulars To the authoritie of the Church I willingly submit my selfe thus farre as that I hold it a sinfull presumption for me or any man eyther to compare my priuate opinion with the generall iudgement of other Christians especially Ministers or to condemne or suspect that of falshood which they deliuer vnlesse I haue apparent proofe for the one and great likelihood for the other In which cases I set not my owne conceit against the doctrine of the Church but preferre the truth of God before the opinions of men As for any infallible authoritie in the Church vpon supposall of such a certaine direction by the spirit of God I hold it neither for true nor probable as shall appeare hereafter In the meane while I desire the Reader to consider these few testimonies cōcerning the authority of men Other writers saith Austin I reade with this prouiso that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I will not thinke a matter true because they haue thought so but because they haue bene able to perswade me eyther by other Canonicall writers or by some likely reason In an other place We may not consent to Bishops though they be Catholicke if at any time they be deceiued so that they iudge contrarie to the Canonicall Scripture of God Of necessitie saith Origen must we call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit And this charge Basil layeth vpon vs that when we heare we examine
certainly and plainly knowen but that euerie man must be able to perceiue that this or that is the rule What is your meaning That the rule must not be hard to be vnderstood Thirdly your terme of vniuersalitie is not so plaine as it might haue bene because it is commonly I thinke euery where in this Treatise saue in this one chapter taken for that which belongs to all persons times and places no where for all points of doctrine no not there where you speake of the entirenesse of faith And I pray you tell me why as you apply infallibilitie to faith and the rule you do not in like sort deale with entirenesse and say that the rule must be entire because faith must be entire I come now to your proposition which I denie because it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should be such as may be certainly and plainly knowen that is vnderstood in euery point It is sufficient if it may be vnderstood in those points that are necessarie to saluatiō Who would say that he which is to measure out timber in length had not a perfect rule to that purpose hauing an ordinarie Carpenters rule because there are vpon the rule some figures circles triangles squares and such like the vse wherof he vnderstandeth not If you runne backe to the entirenesse of faith I will follow you for a refutation of my answer thereunto and a founder proofe of that your conceit A. D. CHAP. VII That Scripture alone cannot be this rule of Faith A. W. The title of this chapter as it shall appeare by and by agreeth not with the discourse in the chapter and besides propoundeth very craftily a matter which is no way in question betwixt vs and the Papists For there is no Protestant diuine that thinks the Scripture alone that is without the ministerie of man a sufficient meanes for the saluation or instruction of all men to which the fond example of this Author tendeth where he talketh of locking vp an vnlearned man that cannot read alone without any helpe but a Bible A. D. §. 1. Out of these former grounds foure conclusions The first conclusion is that Scripture alone especially as it is by Protestants translated into the English tongue cannot be this rule of faith This I prooue First for that these translations faile in the first condition that is to say they are not infallible as the rule of faith must be for neither were the Scriptures written in this language immediately by the holy Ghost neither were the translators assisted by the same holy Ghost infallibly Infallibly I say that is in such sort as it were vnpossible that they should erre in any point Sith therefore the translators as being but men may erre To say nothing of that which by Gregory Martin is prooued and by the often changes of new and variable translations is shewed that some haue erred how can a man and especially an vnlearned man who hath not sufficient meanes learning nor leisure to compare the translations with the prime authenticall originall how can I say such a man be infallibly sure that this particular translation which he hath doth not erre And if in some places it erre how can he be infallibly sure that in those places which do seeme to fauour that sect which he followeth it doth not erre vnlesse he wil admit an vnfallible authoritie in the Church to assure vs that such or such a translation doth not erre in any point of which authoritie I shall speake more hereafter A. W. The Scripture is in it selfe such a rule or meanes and no doubt so made effectuall to some by reading without any other outward helpe of man but this is not the ordinarie course that God hath appointed for the instruction of the people in the knowledge of his truth Therefore if at any time we say that the Scripture alone is the rule of faith by Alone we seuer it from the traditions and authoritie of men not from their ministerie and ascribe vnto it sufficiencie in respect of the matter to be beleeued not simply of the meanes to bring men to beleefe The assumption which you should prooue as also the title of your chapter professeth is this That the scripture alone cannot be the rule of faith By what reason do you prooue it Truly by none at all but leauing the question you dispute against the English translation Wherefore I take it for granted that in your conscience you acknowledge the sufficiency of the Scripture to direct vs in all matters and questions of faith And thereupon I inferre that the infallible authoritie which you would tie to the Church is needlesse because without it there is a sufficient rule of faith prouided by Almightie God whereby euerie man learned and vnlearned may be instructed in all points of faith what is to be holden for true Hence it followeth that the first of your maine points set downe in the preface is false and so your whole Treatise void vntrue You tell vs indeed afterward that some of your reasons against the English translation haue also force to prooue that the Scripture alone in what language soeuer is no sufficient meanes but you neither shew vs which those reasons are nor are there any of sufficient weight to that purpose Let them iudge that will read my answer But first I will propound certaine testimonies of the Fathers concerning the infallibility sufficiency of the Scriptures VVhen heresie saith one hath once gotten footing in the Church there can be no refuge for Christians which desire to know the true faith but onely to the Scriptures And afterward Christ commaunds that they that desire to haue certaintie of faith flie to no other thing but to the Scriptures In the same place three seuerall times in one halfe page he assureth all men that in the most dangerous daies of Antichrist there will be no way to know the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures If certaintie of faith knowledge of the true Church may be had from the Scriptures in time of heresie cannot else where be had out of doubt the Scripture is certaine and infallible and so consequently the rule of faith Irenaeus tels vs that the Gospell is left to vs in the Scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith Tertullian cals to Hermogenes for proofe of that he said out of the Scriptures and warneth him and his complices to beware of the woe that is threatned against them which adde to or take from the Scriptures If they bring any doctrine that is not written therein Origen is ours euery where in this question allowing not any expositions or senses but those that are warranted by the Scriptures requiring of vs to bring not our owne but the sayings of the holy Ghost when we teach This was the rule which Constantine the Emperour enioyned the Fathers of that first famous Councell
their exceeding great harme And at least how soeuer their priuate affection selfe-loue encline them to think well of themselues and of that spirit which they permit to teach them those singuler points of new strange doctrine yet sure it is that this their perswasion of the goodnesse of their spirit is not infallible as the rule of faith must be sith diuers now adaies perswade themselues in the same manner to be taught by the holy spirit and yet one of them teaching against another it is not possible that all that thus perswade themselues should be taught by this spirit sith this spirit doth neuer teach contrarie to it selfe And therefore some in this their perswasion must needs be deceiued And therefore who hauing no testimonie of euident miracle or some other vndoubted proofe dare arrogantly affirme that he onely is not deceiued especially in such sort as to condemne all other and to propose himselfe to himselfe and others as the onely sufficient rule of faith considering that others who presume perswade themselues altogether in like manner are in this their perswasion deceiued A. W. I must againe put the Reader in minde that no Protestant maintaines that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith neither will I vndertake the defence of any such matter but onely examine his reasons against it as I haue done in the former chapters in the like case His reason is thus to be concluded The rule of faith must be infallible plaine knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall A priuate spirit is not such Therefore a priuate spirit is not the rule of faith Of the proposition I spake at the sixth chapter and shewed the fault of it in respect of the second propertie which is easinesse to be vnderstood of all men as it is expounded by your selfe All the doubt now is in the assumption of the three points wherin you go about to prooue but only the first of infallibility It should seeme your stomacke is greater against the scripture then against either natural wit learning or priuate spirit For you disprooue the abilitie of these two but in respect of one property namely the first as if for the other two they or either of them were sufficient enough But you allow the Scripture neuer a one of the three you condemne it of obscuritie you accuse it of defect for wanting diuers points necessarie to saluation And although you do not simply denie the infallibilitie of it yet you make all knowledge that can be had out of our English translation verie vncertaine so that none of our people can haue any benefite by the scripture as by the rule of faith or word of God but onely some few that vnderstand Hebrew or Greeke But I perceiue you were more afraid that the scripture would be taken for the rule of faith then you were that either of the other would Let vs see how you proue your assumption since you wil needs put your selfe to more paines then was looked for He say you that cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is taught by the holy Ghost cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is so taught Therefore a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith There is some cause to doubt of your maior For it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should know it selfe to be the rule The Pope you thinke is the rule of faith Put case that some Pope should doubt whether himselfe were infallibly directed in all his determinations by the holy Ghost or no should he by reason of this doubting cease to be the rule of faith I dare say you thinke not so Neuer vrge me with the impossibilitie of this matter For both it is possible if he that is no Christian may be Pope of Rome If Iohn the 22 doubted of the immortalitie of the soule if Leo 10. counted the history of our Sauiour Christ a fable and it is all one to my answer whether it may be or no it is enough for me if the Pope may be the rule though he should so doubt You should haue done well if you had kept your former warie course of adding some exception to your assumption It had not bene altogether without need For out of question a priuate spirit may be so assured by reuelation as the Prophets and Apostles were And by such meanes a man may come to assurance for all the subtiltie of Sathan the Lord being able to make the motions of his spirit knowen to whom he please what shift soeuer Sathan vse to the contrarie The Minor therefore without this exception be either expressed or vnderstood is vntrue otherwise it is true As for the triall you propound by the touchstone of the true pastors of the Catholicke Church it is vtterly insufficient in this case It may be and is indeed a meanes of great authoritie and vse to direct a man in finding out and holding the truth but it is no certaine proofe that a man hath found or doth hold the truth in all points because those pastors as in due place shall appeare may all be deceiued without the Popes especiall direction But admit their iudgement or authoritie were in the matter infallible yet could no man thereby be assured that himselfe is taught particularly by the holy Ghost For many men hold the truth of God as the true Church doth and yet haue no such teaching by the spirit since it is certaine a man may deliuer truth and he himselfe not beleeue Of your testimonies out of scripture touching the Pastors of the Church I will say onely thus much by the way that the Pastors can speake neither of those sentences truely of themselues but in a measure They know the deuises of Sathan but in part not wholy He that knoweth God heareth them not simply in all points for he that knoweth God may doubt of some point deliuered by the true Pastors of the Church who also are no farther to be heard then they can shew that they speake to be from God The Apostles euerie one of them seuerally knew all things which the Lord thought fit to make knowen to men and were to be heard without any doubting of that they deliuered with them that priuiledge died and all men now are tied to the triall of their doctrine by the scriptures The conclusion of this discourse concerneth either no man in the world or if any the Pope of Rome your Lord God For the Anabaptists themselues are not so absurd and shamelesse as to make any one of their sect the onely sufficient rule of all mens faith but euerie man claimeth though falsly and lewdly a priuiledge of not erring for himselfe Onely your insolent Pope will haue all men to depend vpon his iudgement and in comparison of himselfe disdaineth all writers and all Councils whatsoeuer What promises he hath
Spirit is vnfallible we are not to doubt but that this companie is in all points infallibly taught the truth If also the same our Sauiour gaue warrant and commandement that they should teach vs and that we should heare them and do in all things according to their saying we may not likewise doubt but that they shall be able to teach all sorts of men in all points the infallible truth and that all sorts of men may if they will learne of that companie what in all points is the infallible truth For otherwise by this generall commaundement of hearing them and doing according to their saying we should be bound somtime to heare and beleeue an vntruth and to doe that which were not vpright and good which without blasphemie to Christ his veritie and goodnesse can no way be thought A. W. 1 If our Sauiour Christ say you hath promised to any companie his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature 3 If he haue giuen warrant to all that they may safely heare them 4 If he haue giuen commaundement to all to doe in all things according to their saying 5 If he haue threatned them who will not heare and beleeue them 6 If the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not wanting then the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow But our Sauiour Christ hath so 1. promised 2. charged 3. warranted 4. commaunded 5. threatned and 6. the other conditions required are not wanting Therefore the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow I haue propounded this Syllogisme as your selfe haue set it downe saue onely that I haue endeuored to make it somewhat shorter keeping your sense whole and full Now for the proposition I grant the consequence vpon all those conditions ioyntly considered to be sound and good Howsoeuer some of them might well haue bene omitted for example 1 If our Sauiour haue promised his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to teach a certaine companie of men all truth then the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith This consequence is but weake for Christ may affoord such presence and assistance to such a purpose and yet the effect not ensue by reason that those men faile in some duties required on their part Do not you affirme in this Treatise that God hath appointed meanes of saluation for all men with a true will to haue them saued and yet verie many yea the greatest part are not saued 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature then their preaching is the rule of faith Their commission is not simply to teach but to teach those things that our Sauiour himselfe commaunded and therefore their doctrine can be no farther the rule of faith then they preach according to their commission If I or an Angell from heauen saith the Apostle preach vnto you otherwise then that you haue receiued let him be accursed The same may be obiected against the third and the fifth points It doth not follow that their doctrine is the rule of faith because all men haue warrant to heare them safely or because they are threatned who will not heare and beleeue them For first they may be free from danger of erring and yet not know all points of faith which is made by you one condition of the rule Secondly vnlesse you enlarge the warrant as farre as the commaundement in the fourth point which is in a manner to confound them so that they may safely heare them in all things your consequence will still be naught Thirdly they may heare them safely though the other may erre if they haue means affoorded to examine that they deliuer skill and care to vse those meanes Fourthly the threatning for not beleeuing is to be restrained to their teaching as they ought Are not they threatned by our Sauiour who beleeue not any Minister lawfully authorised and preaching the truth Yet doth it not follow hereupon that they cannot erre or that their preaching is simply the rule of faith But these feeble consequences might all haue bene omitted by you and your matter as fully prooued if you had set downe none but the fourth and sixth points thus If God haue commaunded all men to doe in all things as the Church teacheth and the other conditions required in the rule be not wanting then their preaching is the rule that all men ought to follow This consequence is true and sufficient for your purpose the other serue for number to make a shew rather then for substance of weight But of your Maior this may be sufficient especially since I acknowledge the truth thereof A. D. §. 3. But so it is that Christ our Sauiour hath in holy Scripture promised giuen commission warranted commaunded and threatned in manner aforesaid Therefore we cannot doubt but that there is a certaine company the which is called the true Church of Christ which both is in all points of faith infallibly taught by the holy Spirit and is likewise to teach all sorts of men in all points of faith what is the infallible truth and therefore the teaching of this companie may well be assigned and proposed to all men as an vndoubted sufficient rule of faith A. W. I denie your Minor first in generall because our Sauiour did not so promise charge warrant commaund threaten in regard of any companie of men as if there had bene some ioynt teaching appointed by him but in respect of his Apostles and Ministers seuerally who in their proportion haue as much authoritie for necessitie of being beleeued seuerally one by one as iointly all together though such a ioynt consent is the more to be reuerenced and respected Secondly I denie it also in the fourth point which is the strength of it There neuer was since the Apostles any man or any companie of men according to whose saying we were commaunded to doe in all things Lastly I say the conditions required in the rule of faith are wanting in the teaching you vnderstand This conclusion of yours giueth me occasion to speake somewhat at large of the Church with the name whereof applied to your Pope alone or Pope and Cleargie you daily seduce many vnsetled and ignorant people The word Church in our English tongue seemeth first of all to haue bene applied to the Temple or place of Gods seruice as if it were called Kyrke of the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the Lords house But the Hebrew Greek words which must be the Iudges in this matter signifie a Companie Congregation or Assemblie The Hebrew words are two the Greeke as many the Latin besides the two Greeke made Latin are diuers Populi people Coetus
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
Christ vpon earth whereof hereafter when I come to speake of the Catholicke Church I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is possible that al the Churches in the world should gloriously professe the true faith and yet many thousands be vtterly ignorant that there are any such Churches Was not your Church of Rome which hath bene famous enough for outward state altogether vnknowne at the least a long time in the Indies and America till within these 100. yeares or thereabouts And yet do you aske If it did outwardly professe how it should not by this profession be made visible and knowne Hath not the kingdome of China if we beleeue the report of your Iesuites and other Friers bene a mightie and rich estate many hundred yeares and yet not heard of till of late in most parts of Christendome If you reply that the Churches must needs be knowne to them amongst or neare whom they are I answer that this proueth not their visibilitie to all men at all times no nor to them in the midst of whom they dwell vnlesse the Churches be setled in some outward peace that the members thereof may freely shew themselues Your minor is false it may come to passe that the Church may cease for a space to make open profession of that faith which in hart it doth beleeue else how could Eliah liuing in the kingdom of Israel haue bene ignorant that there were 7000. true worshippers of God in that countrey Your proofe is insufficient If it might come to passe say you that the Church should cease to professe outwardly then should the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But the gates of hell shal not mightily preuaile against it contrary to his promise Therefore it may not come to passe that the Church should cease so to professe The consequence of your maior is too weake Our Sauiours promise is neither to the whole Church considered as a companie ioyntly together but to euery true beleeuer as I shewed before nor concerning outward profession against which Peter the head of the Church as you dreame grieuously sinned but of continuing ioyned to Iesus Christ as the head by a true iustifying faith resting on him for saluation In which estate Peter alwayes was preserued by our Sauiour though the diuel preuailed against him to the deniall of his Lord and Master for feate of death But let vs see your proofe If outward profession be a thing necessary to saluation then if the church faile in that the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But outward profession is a thing necessary to saluation Therfore if the Church faile in outward profession the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise I denie your minor Such outward profession as you meane is not necessary to saluation For the better clearing whereof we must a little examine what it is for a thing to be necessary to saluation then what profession may be counted necessary For the former that is necessary to the saluation of a man without which he cannot possibly be saued Now these things are either simply necessarie so that the absence of them shuts a man out of heauen or necessarie onely in some sort Simply necessarie on mans part for in that sense we speake now of things necessarie are acknowledgement of sinne faith in Iesus Christ and repentance wheresoeuer any of these is wanting there is no possibilitie of saluation so long as they are wanting Other things there are onely so far necessarie as that the contempt or neglect of them baâ—s a man of saluation Such are the Sacraments and outward profession both in generall by becoming a member of some true visible Church and in particular by witnessing the truth as oft as the Lord shall minister iust occasion Concerning this latter kinde of things necessarie we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of these duties and beleeue in Iesus Christ there is mercie for vs with God though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them Touching the latter point of outward profession it is as I signified ere while of two sorts either a ioyning of our selues to some Church professing true Religion or a bearing witnesse of the truth of God which we professe To this latter especially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you To the former that text which you set in the last place as it shal appeare by and by You will aske me perchance whether of these two is the profession you speake of Surely to speake plainly and properly neither of them For it is a conceit of your owne deuising without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture and namely of those places you bring for proofe of it yet may it in some sort be referred to the latter as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God whereof we are professors So then the answer is first that no kinde of outward profession is simply necessary to saluation as if the absence of it were in it selfe damnable though the contempt or neglect of the dutie not repented of brings certaine damnation Secondly that it is not necessary to saluation either simply or in any sort that a whole Church should at all times make open profession to the world of that Religion which they hold and secretly practise This is that outward profession which is meant in your minor by which conceit you shut out of heauen all Churches that is all assemblies of the faithfull which at any time haue for borne to cast themselues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirstie and rauening persecutors by proclaiming openly their faith in Christ It is too true that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried some men now and then farther then they should haue gone to the endangering and losing of their liues But it is as true that our Sauiour his Apostles and the Churches from time to time haue beene carefull to hide themselues from the sight of Tyrants when the Gospell was persecuted as farre as their callings and other occasions would giue them leaue Indeede they they neuer would neither is it lawfull denie the truth of God or themselues to be professors of it if they were called in question for it yet did they conceale as much as they could from the persecutors their times and places of meeting and also the seuerall members of their Churches To denie Christ or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable and without repentance bringeth damnation vnauoideably not to make publicke profession of religion is not alwaies so but then onely when the Lord by some speciall occasion according to the generall dutie of a Christian or a mans particular calling thrusteth or draweth him foorth to giue testimonie to the truth by maintaining it or suffering for it Which your selfe also afterward acknowledge by
Ierome before Poperie was hatched shall alwaies be open to them that desire to be saued that entrance may not be denied either in prosperitie or aduersity to them that will beleeue Thus this place of Esay will not prooue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 7. Sixtly the onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or onely of the good But this is a false ground as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Ecclesia which euen by the Etymology of the word doth signifie the companie of men called now sure it is that moe are called then elected as our Sauiour saith Multi vocati pauci electi Againe this ground is shewed to be false by those parables in which the Church is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed And to a mariage to which came good and bad And to a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad And to ten Virgins wherof fiue were foolish and excluded from the celestiall mariage This ground is also shewed to be false out of Saint Paule who commaundeth the Corinthians to expell an incestuous person out of the Church Ergo before this expulsion there was such a person in the Church and therefore the Church doth not consist onely of those that be good A. W. Because your owne reasons are not strong enough to proue the point in question you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground whereupon onely as you confidently auouch we build our deniall of the Churches visibility at all times But neither is that our onely ground and if it were you are not able to shake it Concerning the former we denie the visibilitie of the Church as it is vnderstood in those places where our Sauiour promiseth spirituall graces to it and as it is taken in the Creed because that Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ and therefore can consist of none but those that are truly iustified and sanctified as none but the elect are But we farther denie the same visibilitie because you would haue vs beleeue that the Catholicke Church is visible To which we answer that this Catholicknesse let the Church be what it will maketh it inuisible because that which is Catholicke is generall consisting of many particulars and we haue learned that vniuersals are not subiect to sense but onely to be conceiued by the minde as hauing no outward shape which can be seene or knowen by any of the fiue senses Moreouer if we take the question in the most reasonable sort that may be and so it is verie seldome handled by you Whether there must alwaies be some one or other companie of men that may be famously knowen of all the world to be a true Church of Christ Still we continue in denying that visibilitie First as it is propounded by you for an Article of Faith and an essentiall propertie of the or a true Church Secondly because we are taught in the Scriptures that the true Church that is the professours of Christs true Religion shall be faine to flie into the wildernesse and so must needes be out of the sight of at least the greatest part of the world I am loth to repeate these things so often but you driue me to it my helpe is to do it as shortly as I can All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground vpon which our denial of the Churches visibilitie stādeth are diuided by you into two bands with the former whereof thus you set vpon vs. The companie of men called consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is the companie of men called Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely I denie your Minor many men are called that are not of the Church which consisteth of such onely as being called are also elect It is true that the word Church is sometimes so generally taken that it compriseth all such as make profession of faith in Christ but this is not the Church of which the Creed speaketh and to which our Sauiours promises apppertaine yea besides this Church there is the true Church of Christ whereof he is head whose bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member such as ouer many perhaps the greatest part of them that make profession of beleefe commonly are In a word the whole course of your Treatise failes in this point that whereas the word Church is diuersly taken you apply that to it in the generall meaning of the word which was spoken of it by our Sauiour the Prophets and Apostles in that speciall signification by which it containeth none but the elect To your proofe I answer farther First that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verie nature of it doth not signifie The companie that is any certaine companie called but generally a company that is any such companie whatsoeuer Secondly I adde that the word is also sometimes taken for a companie whether called or not called as I haue hated the companie of the wicked Where the Prophet speaketh not of any companie called together but absolutely of the wicked howsoeuer assembled or not assembled Thirdly I say it is enough in respect of the nature and Etymology of the word that the Church be a companie of men called neither can it any way be enforced from the signification of it in Greeke that the Church must needs comprehend all that are in any sort called Indeed the elect onely may truly be said to be called in an especiall manner because they haue besides the outward sound of the preacher the inward voice of the spirit and are not onely called to beleeue the truth of the Gospell but also to beleeue truly in Iesus Christ to saluation This is your rereward with which you charge vs afresh and that as it were both with foote and horse First you throng together many places of Scripture as if your confidence were greater in your number then in vour valour Let vs encounter you That which is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed To a mariage to which come good and bad To a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad To ten virgins whereof fiue were foolish and shut out from the coelestiall mariage consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is compared to such a floare marriage net virgins Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely A verie hot assault but your bullets fall a great way short of the marke you do or should aime at For all you prooue by this reason is onely this that the Church taken for the whole companie of them that make profession of the Gospell consisteth not onely of the elect Who euer dreamed it did You are so farre from ouerturning our ground that you neuer once come neare it for all this braue shew
and reason we must beleeue the teaching of it in euery point Now it is most certaine that the spirit of the true visible Church is of God as out of holy Scripture hath bene most euidently prooued And therefore our onely care should be to seeke out those markes by which all men may know which particular companie of men is the true Church of Christ whose doctrine we neither need nor lawfully may examine and trie in doubtfull manner but must obediently and vndoubtfully in all points beleeue as the onely assured and infallible truth A. W. For the better strengthening of your minor you assay to make and answer an argument which our Diuines vse to alledge against it and this it is They that are willed in Scripture not to beleeue euery spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. But euery Christian is willed in Scripture not to beleeue euerie spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. Therefore euery Christian may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. The Assumption of this Syllogisme we proue by that place of Iohn Dearly beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they are of God To this our proofe you answer two wayes First concerning the spirits to be tried then concerning them that are to make triall Of the former your answer is that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no. First this answer cannot be warranted by the text which is generall Trie the spirits that is all spirits that come to preach vnto you if we apply it to the teachers rather then to the doctrine they deliuer And surely if the Apostle had meant as you expound him he would not haue said Trie the spirits but trie some of them Beleeue not euery spirit but trie those of which you may well doubt but he saith generally the spirits Secondly what may we imagine to be a cause of doubting If want of lawfull sending which is the great point you alwayes vrge either we must know the spirits we may doubt of to be vnlawfully sent and then by your doctrine we must vtterly reiect them without any farther triall or else the triall we are to make if we doubt is whether they be lawfully sent or no for till that appeare we may not heare them But our Apostle appointeth vs to make triall by their doctrine Thirdly the reason and end of this exhortation is that we might take heede of false Prophets and false Apostles which were crept into the Church Many false Prophets were stirred vp by the diuell faining that they had Apostolicall doctrine to deliuer Therefore saith Didymus the gift of discerning spirits is necessary Now these false apostles were not such as came without any calling for the diuell must needs haue knowne if he had bene then acquainted with your doctrine that it was not possible for him to preuaile by men not authorised by the Church but as the Apostle teacheth vs they were such as had gone frō amongst the true Christiās not by schisme in refusing communion with them so much as by heresie in departing from the truth of doctrine in maine points of religion Fourthly false teachers do so nearely resemble true and come many times with such shew of holinesse that a man cannot tell whom he should trust or suspect but as he findes his doctrine to be sutable or contrarie to the word of God Therefore Ferus a writer of your owne and one of no meane account vnderstandeth by spirit doctrine The Apostle warnes vs saith Ferus that we beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine and perswasion To which purpose he alledgeth also that of Saint Paul Trie all things hold fast that which is good alledged by Thomas in the same matter To make this your answer the more likely you tell vs that when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither need nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it as if we thought any such doubtfull or presumptuous course lawfull Yet in this case there is a difference to be obserued If we know the preacher to be sent of God in such sort as the Apostles were that he cannot erre then euery least doubt of that which he deliuereth is presumption and sinne But otherwise though it appeare to vs that he be authorised by God we may safely take liberty to examine whatsoeuer he teacheth without any presumption to iudge or needlesse doubting of that he deliuereth In a word if we heare such a man it is our dutie not to suspect his doctrine but where we haue some good apparence of Scripture for our suspicion In which case we are to search the word of God and to open our doubts to him that we may be satisfied If the matter be such as we cannot clearely prooue to be false by Scripture we are with all reuerence and humilitie to suspect our owne iudgement rather then his whom God hath appointed and authorised to be our teacher so farre must we be from presumption Your second exception is against them that are to trie the spirits who are not say you euerie simple or priuate man but the Pastors of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine as being put by God in his Church of purpose that we may not be carried away with euerie winde of doctrine That this exhortation belongeth to all Christians it may appeare by these reasons First we haue the like generall admonitions in other places of Scripture to all Christians not onely to Pastors and Doctors Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour to all men which come to you in sheeps cloathing Trie all things saith the Apostle and hold fast that which is good which latter place as before I noted is brought by Thomas of Aquin and Ferus to expound this text of Saint Iohn Secondly the whole Epistle is written to all in generall without any particular instruction or exhortation to this or that kinde of Christians as teachers learners masters seruants or such like Thirdly it is the course of the Apostles where they descend from generals to particulars to giue some speciall notice of that change by naming seuerally the estates to which they speake and not continuing onely the common titles of beloued or brethren as the Apostle in this place doth Fourthly himselfe professeth that his Epistle is written in generall to all men yea euen to young men and babes in Christ Neither doth he in this exhortation restraine his words to them that are teachers Fiftly if it be not lawfull for priuate men to trie the spirits then are they to receiue whatsoeuer is taught by any particular Doctor or Pastor and so be bound to beleeue meere
if it were the wages of seruants and not the inheritance of children The vniuersal Church as you speake of it is a meere name without any thing answerable to it in nature That which was generally held while the Churches of Christ were not subiect to Antichrist concerning the substance of Religion by which true and false Churches are to be iudged we gladly and constantly maintaine The errors which some men defended and corrupted the Churches withall we refute and reiect But it is no marke of the true Church to hold all that hath bene generally maintained in true Churches but the dutie of it to acknowledge for true whatsoeuer was taught by the Apostles and is recorded in Scripture How far our Church is spread it passeth your skill truly to affirme and we may with good reason perswade our selues that it is in all places where the Gospell is preached and the Scriptures knowne because dayly experience sheweth that it hath some members in those countries where your bloudie and tyrannous butchery of Inquisition doth most rule and vnder the nose of your grand Antichrist in the citie of Rome But it is enough to make it Catholicke that it acknowledgeth it selfe to be common both to Iew and Gentile not tied to any country people or person whatsoeuer as yours is to the Pope and Rome We are not ashamed of Martin Luther whom it pleased God to vse admirably if not miraculously to rake from vnder the ashes the light of the Gospell couered and choked with your errors and superstitions Not as if it had bin al that while out of the world but as one of your owne fellowes speakes of it as being in the eclipse ouershadowed and darkned with the thicke mist of your Popish decrees decretals and schoolmens trickes and other such leud trumpery Our Church that is the true Church of Christ was all that time in the world but not to be seene of euery man though from time to time there were still found some who durst maintaine the truth of Christ against your Antichristian heresies Luthers writings words deeds and manner of death were such as might manifest to all men both his true zeale of the glory of God and Gods especiall fauour to him whatsoeuer such lying sycophants as Prateolus faine If we would stand vpon Apostolicknesse in succession what haue you that we want saue onely that you continue in succession of error longer then we do But it is an idle plea to auouch personall succeeding where there is manifest contrarietie in doctrine by which as we heard out of Tertullian howsoeuer you brag of Apostolicknesse you may be proued not to be Apostolicall We differ not in doctrine touching the fundamentall points of Religion from any true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church neither doth your synagogue agree with any such Therfore wheras you demand how we can brag that we haue true faith which is not to be found out of the true Church we answer you as oft we haue done that we are sure the faith we hold is true because it is agreeable to the Scriptures and being so we cannot be out of the true Church as long as we are in the true faith True faith cannot be had by any light or discourse of nature but onely by reuelation from God For neither eye hath seene nor eare hath heard nor the heart of man can imagine what the meanes are whereby God decreed in himselfe to saue those whom he hath chosen to glory Now it was not the purpose of God in these latter times as in the first before the law to reueale his will immediatly from heauen but he sent his Son in the nature of man and that Sonne his Apostles to giue knowledge of those means of saluation both by preaching for that present age wherein they liued and also by writing for that age and all that were to succeed till the end of the world This is all that the Apostle teacheth in the place alledged by you Yet we denie not that the principall ordinary means to bring men to faith is the ministery of man by word of mouth expounding the word wil of God according to the Scriptures First then all men to whom the Scriptures are vouchsafed haue meanes of hearing For in them they may if they will heare men appointed by God speake to their instruction and saluation Secondly the same God hath ordained that besides the former teaching there should be certaine men set apart and deputed for the ministery whose dutie it is to preach in their seuerall charges the word of truth This setting apart deputing is that sending which is now required and is to be performed by such as are shall be authorized to that purpose Thirdly for our particular case we are to vnderstand that Luther and these other worthies by whose ministery it pleased God to reuiue the knowledge of the Gospell decayed were authorized to preach by your congregation which was at that time in apparence the true Church of God Therefore were they sent if your church haue any sending and according to their calling they labored in opening the truth of God as it is reuealed in the Scriptures Thus by the gracious mercie of God it came to passe that they teaching the word of truth found diuers both men and women whose hearts the Lord by his spirit opened so that they embraced the loue of the truth deliuered by them and accepted them for their pastors and submitted themselues to become their flockes By this meanes they had both a generall authoritie to preach from that companie which by profession was the Church and also a particular charge of those who were now become indeed in regard of their professed faith a true Church of God We haue then in our Churches for the late reforming of them first your calling such as it was and secondly the approbation of true Christians of which true Churches consist Therefore by your owne rule since we haue some amongst vs that are sent we may also haue faith and true faith though we abhor your Antichristian heresies To what purpose is this idle discourse but to shew your owne errors We neither looke for nor allow any opinion of extraordinary sending from God because we haue no warrant for any such in the Scriptures But wee say the restorers of the Gospell in this last age had ordinary allowance of that Church which bare the shew of the true Church and professed the beleeuing of the Gospell which is the foundation of the Church But you require peculiar consecration because it pleased God to appoint such a course for the Priesthood of the Law Do you not know that the consecrating and annointing of Aaron was a part of the ceremoniall law signifying the annointing of the spirit which our Sauiour was to receiue to whom according to those shewes the Lord gaue the spirit without measure The consecration that now remaines is nothing but the setting a part
this world but the whole societie of the faithful from time to time But these gay shewes of Catholike Church Vniuersalitie antiquitie vnitie succession and such like are fit to deceiue the ignorant for which purpose your discourses are written with whō they preuaile by the iust iudgement of God who sends them strong delusions that they may beleeue lyes because they haue not embraced the loue of the truth that they might be saued A. D. §. 6. First because it is very briefe and compendious and consequently such as euery one might haue leysure and should not be much weary to reade it A. W. You deale in your corrupt writings as leud men do in slanderous reports who speake anie thing at aduenture though neuer so vntrue or vnlikely It is hard but some men will either beleeue or make doubt of it at the least So all men reade your writings you care not Though they that are of knowledge and iudgement discerne your falshood yet it is twentie to one but some ignorant fellow will light on them that may be seduced And this practise you follow the rather because you are for the most part out of feare of being shamed by confutation for that you are vnknowne and know well inough that our answers to you are commonly and many times must be so large that one amongst manie can hardly find leisure to reade them Whereas if the authors of your treatises were knowne amongst vs and our answers applied shortly and plainely to the verie point of the argument that being disrobed of the idle ornaments you cloath it withall and laid naked to the view of true reason we should haue as few of your discourses as we haue now of your replies to our refutations of your treatises which are so few that in many yeares it is rare to haue anie second charge by you vnlesse it be in such a fight as requires no more but a brauado without coming to handie blowes A. D. §. 7. Secondly because it standing onely vpon few but most certaine conclusions and grounds is free from many cauils of the captious which more ample discourses are subiect vnto A. W. To speake truly and properly there is but one conclusion in your whole Treatise as I haue shewed out of this your Preface Against which we also oppose one as briefe and more certaine then yours Your conclusion is That the faith and beliefe which the authority of the Romane Church doth commend vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith Ours That the faith which the Scripture teacheth vs is the onely true faith If you speake of the seuerall cōclusions belonging to the proofe of the generall there are at the least as many as there are Chapters But if you meane the three grounds which you signifie before and repeate afterwards they are so farre from being certaine that there is neuer a one of them true as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 8. Thirdly because the matter handled in it is not very high nor hard but common easie and plaine and such as may be vnderstood of any who hauing but a reasonable wit or vnderstanding wil carefully read it as the importance of the matter requireth with iudgement deliberation and which is chiefe with prayer to God and a resolute good will to follow that which he shall find to be right A. W. The matter is as hard by your handling of it as sophistrie can well make it as high as the deepe foundation of religion Yet I denie not but it may be vnderstood by a man of such parts and paines as you require and adde farther that the like may be auowed of the true grounds of religion as they are contained in the Scripture to the reading and meditation whereof the Lord himself hath promised such a blessing as your treatises if they were neuer so true could not looke for Is not the fountaine better then the chanell A. D. §. 9. Fourthly because these fewe plaine points which are here set downe include all other and whosoeuer shall by the helpe of Gods grace and the force of these or other reasons yeeld assent to the points proued in this discourse must by consequence without further disputing or difficultie yeeld to all particular points which the aforesaid Church commendeth for points of faith and will be moued to settle himselfe in the stedfast beliefe of all For if he once admit that there is a Church or company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points and that this Church is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth and further that this Church which is thus taught and must teach vs is no other but that visible company which professeth the Romane faith then he shall not need to straine his wits in studying or to wast words in wrangling about particular points of controuersies or to vse any such troublesome and vncertaine meanes to find out the truth but may easily and most certainly be instructed in all by onely enquiring and finding out which all sorts of men may easily do what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in all particular points whereof they doubt A. W. If these few points be so conuenient because in thē all other are included why should not our doctrine of the Scripture be as conuenient by the same reason Let vs compare our assertions together The first of yours is That a man must admit that there is a company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points The first of ours That a man must beleeue that there is a written word of God wherein the holy Ghost hath certainely taught whatsoeuer is needfull to be knowne to saluation Your second is That this company of men is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth Our second That this written word of God is appointed by him to teach all men in all matters of faith what is true what false Your third That this company of men is no other but the visible company which professeth the Romane faith Our third That this written word is no other but the bookes of the old and new Testament The proofe of your positions and the exceptions you take against ours shal be handled if it please God in their due places in the meane time if any mā be troubled with those ordinarie doubts which you haue buzzed into the common peoples eares concerning the vncertainty and hardnesse of the Scriptures let me intreat him to stay himselfe a while vpon these considerations First that the bookes of the old and new Testament acknowledged by vs are also confessed by you to be the verie word of God in the penning whereof the penners were so directed by the holy Ghost that they could not erre Therefore whatsoeuer the meanes
be whereby we come to assurance that these bookes are the word of God let it suffice all men that both we and you agree they are so But I pray tell me Are the determinations of the Church any more certaine What ground haue I but the word of some men that the Church hath so determined It is not a matter so agreed vpon betwixt vs as the bookes of Scripture are Out of question the ods is on our side It is doubtfull whether you Romanistes are the Church or no it is out of doubt these bookes are the infallible word of God But you will say the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood as well because they are written in Hebrew and Greeke as also for the kind of writing Are not all the Decrees of your Councels and determinations of your Popes Consistorie written either in Greeke or Latin or in the Italian language in none of which one man among ten thousand hath any skill And is there not as great reason to thinke the Scriptures are rightly translated as your Decrees Decretals and Determinations Especially when as we commonly alledge the interpretations of the ancient Fathers and learned Papists for the auowing of our translations But the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood though a man be skilfull in the tongues And are the Decrees of your Councels so easie that euery man may vnderstād them who knowes the language they are written in Doth not Bellarmine condemne and confute our writers Caluin Chemnitius and other for not vnderstanding the Decrees of your Councell of Trent written in Latine which language they were as skilfull in as himselfe If they be so easie how chance Bishop Catharin and Frier Soto that were both present at the Councell and heard the debating of matters can not agree about the doctrine of it concerning assurance of saluation which as Soto affirmes was the longest and most troublesome disputation of all in the Councell and therefore should haue bene best vnderstood and plainliest deliuered Yet is it so propounded by the holy fathers the authors of it that Catharin saith boldly he foresaw that most men would vnderstand the words of the Decree otherwise then the holy Synod meant them Was there not great contention within these very few yeares betwixt Archbishop Christophor de Capite fontium and many other Diuines about the meanes of transsubstantiating the bread though in his iudgement the Councel of Trent makes manifestly for him I forbeare to say that some points seeme to haue bene craftily set downe of purpose like the oracles of Apollo that which way soeuer they be taken the Church may not seeme to haue erred Neither will I adde that diuerse matters are deliuered by Councels not as points of faith but as probable coniectures which yet may be and are taken by some of your owne learned writers as if they were resolutely determined for certaine truth These things considered I see no sufficient reason why it should not be as fit and safe to learne of the Scripture which is the infallible truth as of any companie of men whatsoeuer But you labour to commend to vs this resting on the authoritie of the Romish Church by some especiall commodities that shall ensue thereupon The first wherof is ease the 2. certaintie of knowledge He shall not need say you to straine his wits in studying c. If ease were not too much delighted in by men of your profession there would not be such swarms of idle Monks Fryers Nuns nonresident Bishops and Priests amongst you But true Christians vnderstand that it was not Gods purpose to prouide so much for their ease by giuing them leaue to beleeue at aduenture hand ouer head whatsoeuer it should please men to enioyne thē but that it is his good pleasure that all men should carefully and painfully exercise themselues night and day in reading and meditating of the Scriptures He is too nice and dainty a professor of religion that is loth to straine his wits to the vttermost in the study of any thing reuealed by God in Scripture What shall I say of him that cals conference and disputation about euen the greatest points of faith and iustification wasting of words in wrangling Nec se magnanimo maledicere sentit Achilli It is strange you should not haue the wit to perceiue that by this censure you condemne Lombard Thomas and all your schoole men yea the Pope and generall councels who are bound to vse such meanes for the finding out of the truth and as Sotus saith did vse them in a long and troublesome disputation yet forsooth neither the one nor the other at least both together cannot erre No man then ought to refuse study or disputation of controuersies in diuinitie because they are troublesome Therefore to mend the matter you adde that they are also vncertaine what can be certain but only reuelation if the true vse of reason can breed nothing but vncertainty How idly and vainly did your schoolemen imploy themselues if all their study and labour must end in vncertainty What vse is there of Councels for finding out of the truth since the helpe to be had of them is debating of matters by reasoning Do we not find in daily experience that as flint and steele stricken together bring forth fire so truth is as it were beaten out by disputation It is reported you make great shewes of desiring a disputation I maruaile to what end If when all comes to all your auditors shall still remaine vncertaine what is true Shall I go yet farther You tell vs the Church cannot erre we beleeue you not you alledge some places of Scripture to proue it to vs we say they proue no such matter what course will you take It is in vaine to dispute of it that is as you say to wast words in wrangling about it For that is but an vncertaine meanes to find-out the truth Haue you not brought matters to a good passe thinke you when you professe that there is no meanes to discern certainlie whether the Church can erre or no but onely to take her own word for it Yea no meanes left to know that she is the Church For if you will againe fly to the Scriptures you run into the former difficulties and end as before in vncertainty Who would haue to do with such vnreasonable men But that you may not seeme to leaue vs in vncertainty you tel vs that we may most certainly be instructed in all particular points of controuersies by onely enquiring and finding out what is holden generally by the Church for truth c. You send vs to the faith of the Church and namely of the Church of Rome Which say we is onely so farre forth to be yeelded vnto as it is agreeable to the Scriptures Neither do we say so onely but Ambrose long before our time hath said the like We are commanded saith
Ambrose to enquire after the faith of the Church and that especially in which Church if Christ be a dweller it is doubtlesse to be made choise of But if the people be vnfaithful if an heretical teacher deforme the dwelling the communion of heretickes is to be auoided the congregation must be shunned And a little after If there be any Church that refuseth the faith and holds not the foundation of the Apostles preaching it is to be left lest it taint vs with some spot of vnbeliefe or vnfaithfulnesse Neither will it serue the turne that you referre vs to that which is generally holden by the Church for both the generall faith depends vpon the particular beliefe of the Church or Pope of Rome and is not to be taken for truth because it is generally receiued but because it agrees with the Romane faith as we learned before of your Monkes of Bourdeaux who make the Catholique Church to haue communion with the Church of Rome as the fountaine of truth and of greater authoritie in their iudgement then the Catholicke Church But let vs admit that you desire of beleeuing whatsoeuer is generally holden by the Church I am half afraid this conceit be it neuer so strong wil not procure the quietnes you promise vs. The causes of my feare are these two First I may doubt of such a point as is not yet determined by the Church for example I make question of the Popes authority aboue Councels or theirs aboue him How shall I most certainly be instructed in the truth of this question Enquire say you and find what is generally holden by the Church What if the Doctors of your Church cannot agree about this point That they cannot it appeares by your owne doubting where you make it questionable whether the Pope alone or the Pope with a general Councell be free from error And Bellarmine is faine to take a great deale of paines in answering the arguments of diuers Papists some of them equall to himselfe for learning iudgement and authoritie who make the Pope subiect to generall Councels But of this in due place Say it were generally agreed on Could I thereby be most certainly instructed what is truth in this point May not all saue the Pope be deceiued and perhaps he to without the aduice and assent of a general Councell at least if he haue not in his consistory vpon good deliberation resolued of the matter What shall it auaile me then to know that generally it is thought the Pope is aboue any Councell Supposing this point were generally held to be true though indeed as I said before it is denyed both by priuate men by 2. councels that of Basil the other of Constance which deposed two Popes Iohn the three and twentieth and Benedict the thirteenth And Bellarmine saith that to this day it remaines in question euen among the Catholikes Well put case all men thought as Bellarmine and all such Popish parasites would haue it what were I the nearer as long as there can be no certainty of truth in your opinion where nothing is iudicially determined by a Pope Coūcell The second resō of my doubt is that I know not how to find out either easily as you say euery man may or certainly though with some paines what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in al particular points wherof I doubt Shall I looke into the confessions of seuerall Churches Where are they to be found Shall I trauail into euery particular country to learne what they hold of this or that poynt What assurance can I get hereby but from some speciall men And it is a venture but they will not all agree in euery point What remaines Forsooth that which is all in all I must beleeue Watsō or Clarke or Blackwel the archpriest or if al these will not content me Gerrard Tesmond Hall or without all doubting Garnet the superior of the Iesuites who questionlesse is as void of error as the Pope himselfe Haue I not trow you a sound foundation to build my faith vpon when I haue the word of these equiuocating traitours Priests and Iesuits And yet this is the most I can haue in this case if I be a man vnlearned especially vnable to reade Is it possible any man should be so senslesse as to hazzard his euerlasting saluation vpon such an vncertainty to beleeue he knowes not what because a Priest or a Iesuit tels him that the Church generally doth so beleeue But what if it fall out as it may do that the Priests perswade him the Church holds one thing and the Iesuites affirme it maintaines the contrary how shall a poore soule either settle his iudgement or quiet his conscience Quid sequar aut quem Were it not a directer and certainer course to hold nothing for truth in religion but that which is proued to vs by plaine testimonies of Scripture or certaine consequence of reason drawne from principles euidently exprest or apparētly contained in the knowne word of God The difficulties of translation and interpretation shal be handled in their places which also as I shewed ere while accompany al your writings of priuate men Popes or Councels Now then if their be many particular points of cōtrouersies whereof I may doubt which are not resolued of by any iudgement of the Church nor agreed vpon by the learned of your owne side if I cannot certainly know what is generally held for truth by the Church but as I giue credit to the report of a Priest or Iesuit whom I know to be partiall in the matter because he is one of the Popes vassals subiect to erre because he is a priuate man likely enough to lye because he maintaines equiuocation what madnesse were it for me to forbeare searching and studying of the Scriptures where I am sure the truth of God is to be found and to lose my time and labour in seeking what the Church generally holds and that of those men who perhaps vnderstand not what is held but as they haue bene informed by others who may themselues haue mistaken the true meaning of the Church in that it holds A. D. §. 10. Of which points also If they be desirous they may haue sufficient authority and reason yeelded by the learned of the same Church though they should not so desire reason to be yeelded that without reason be giuen they would not beleeue at all or as grounding their faith vpon the reason giuen sith Christian beliefe ought onely to be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the mouth of the Church who ought to be beleeued in all matters without giuing any reason A. W. There is no sufficient authoritie for a man to ground his faith vpon but the truth of God reuealed Whatsoeuer is taught without that authoritie is as easily contēned as alleadged Therfore Iustine wils him that would be setled in
compendious resolution of faith Which before I examine let me here againe put you in minde that you condemne the greatest part of all your Schoolemens writings as needlesse and fruitlesse doubts questions and disputes and call them vnsetled minds that spend their time and spirits in such matters And surely such were many of the points they handled hauing nothing in them but vanitie and vexation of spirit as may appeare to name one for all by their articles and questions vpon Lombard and Thomas about the Masse But is anie man to be found so shamelesse as that he dare call it a needlesse and fruitlesse labour to search the Scripture for the finding out of the truth in such matters as are necessarily to be beleeued for the attaining to saluation Doth the neglect of this dutie bring a man good leisure and liking to build himselfe vp in the loue of God What loue of God can there be where there is no delight in his word Dauid makes it his meditation day and night and preferres the sweetnesse he finds in it and the account he makes of it before honie and the honie combe fine gold and all maner of riches But what should I heape vp vnnecessarie testimonies in a case not doubtfull Is it possible they should be Christians that make so small reckoning of the testament of Iesus Christ Can he be said truly to loue his father that neuer cares to see what his fathers loue to him is but contents himselfe with so much knowledge of it as men list to impart to him yea that knowes not whether he had such a father or no but onely as other men haue told him We say not that euery man is bound vpon hazzard of his saluation to know euery point of difference betwixt you and vs or to vnderstand the sense of euery place of Scripture but that all true Christians must labour for as much knowledge as by diligent hearing reading and meditating of the Scirptures they can attaine to Neither shall they by this study and endeuour either abate their loue to God or depriue themselues of the sense of his loue to them Nay rather both the one and the other shal be increased when a man shall feele the work of Gods spirit in his heart kindling in him a desire to vnderstand the mystery of his redemption by Iesus Christ to comprehend the infinitenesse of the loue of God the Father and enlightning him to conceiue that which by his owne skill he neuer were able to discerne But they that follow your resolution neuer come rightly to vnderstant what the loue of God to them is but if they will consider things aduisedly must needes thinke God hath dealt hardly with them as with seruants not with sonnes whom he shuts out from the knowledge of his will and view of his wisdome maiestie manifested in the writings of the old and new Testament affoording them no more of that heauenly Manna but such chippings and parings as their idle and prowd prelates will vouchsafe to cast them He that finds the loue of God toward him in opening to him the true sense of the Scripture in matters concerning his euerlasting saluation doth beare more true loue to God for it then any Papist can do that glorieth in his blind obedience to men maketh the end of his louing God the deseruing of euerlasting life by his ignorance of the Scriptures As for true holinesse of life whence doth it arise but from the feeling of Gods loue to vs whereby the spirit of God which dwels in vs inflames our hearts with the affections of kind children to so louing a father Can you imagine that he who hath at most but a kind of perswasion of I know not what holy inspirations blessings of Gods spirit vpon some Priests or Iesuits word can loue God as truely and feruently as he that knowes by the truth of God in the Scripture that the spirit of God dwels in all Gods children one of whom the same spirit assures him he is Your Papist must liue holily that he may become the temple of God a true Christian knowes he cannot liue holily but by the holy Ghosts dwelling in him and making him the temple of God And can it be a question whether of these two loueth God more deatly But I haue bene too long in your Preface Now to the Treatise it selfe A. D. A TREATISE OF FAITH CHAP. I. That true faith is absolutely necessary to saluation A. W. TRue faith whether we take it for an assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed or for beleeuing in God is absolutely necessary onely for those which are come to yeares of discretion not for them that die in their infancie Which I deliuer not by way of confutation but of explication because I am perswaded you and I agree in this point A. D. §. 1. Whosoeuer hath a true desire to please God and an earnest care to saue his owne soule the which should be the chiefest desire and care of euery Christian man must first resolue and settle himselfe in a sound beliefe of matters of faith holding it for a most assured ground That there is a faith which whosoeuer wanteth cannot possibly please God nor consequently be saued sith none are saued that do not please God A. W. Faith being so diuersly taken both in Scripture and other writings it had bin fit for him that professeth plainnesse either to haue set downe the seuerall significations of the word or to haue shewed in what sense he himselfe vseth it in this treatise Bellarmine giues it foure significations Sanders six Vega nine Yea this author himselfe as it shall appeare taketh it not alwayes in one and the same sense but diuersly as it best fitteth his present purpose especially in one of these two significatiōs either for the habit or quality of faith whereby we are enabled to beleeue or for the obiect of the same faith that is for the things that are to be beleeued Example we haue of both in this first Chapter Matters of faith are such points as we are bound to beleeue That faith which whosoeuer wanteth cannot please God is the qualitie of faith in the soule And these diuers vses of the word are within the compasse of three lines To which I may adde a third sense out of this same chapter where by faith actuall beleeuing is vnderstood as in the places of Scripture alledged For i. is not the hauing but the vsing of faith that iustifieth So thē where he saith that true faith is absolutely necessary to saluation his meaning is that no man can be saued vnlesse he do assent to the truth of those matters which God hath enioyned all men to beleeue or that there are certaine points to be beleeued without assent to the truth whereof no man can be saued But what need was there of this discourse since both parties that were to conferre
agreed about this point without any doubting Or if there were any doubt it was on the Papists side rather then on ours because they require not true faith to make a man a member of the Church but onely the outward profession of beleefe Yea the Pope may be head of the Church though he beleeue not with his heart And therfore it may not seeme strange to vs that a Iesuited Priest in Wisbich castle should affirme That one that was no Christian might be Pope of Rome But such a glorious title of the necessitie of faith maketh a goodly shew to the ignorant yet let no man deceiue himselfe herewithall For this faith which the Papists in words so magnifie is not that beleef in Iesus Christ whereby a Christian man resting on him for pardon of his sinne is iustified but onely an agreeing to the truth of Scripture So that a man may be full of this their faith and yet be euerlastingly damned A. D. §. 2. This ground is set downe by S. Paul himselfe who saith Sine fide impossibile est placere Deo without faith it is vnpossible to please God The same is confirmed by S. Augustine who saith Constat neminem ad veram posse peruenire beatitudinem nisi Deo placeat Deo neminem placere posse nisi per sidem Fides namue est bonorum omnium fundamentum Fides est humanae salutis initium Sine hac nemo ad filiorum Dei consortium peruenire potest quia sine ipfa nec in hoc seculo quis quam iustificationis consequitur gratiam nec in futuro vitam posside bit aeternam It is certaine that none can come to true hap pinesse vnlesse he please God and that none can please God but by faith For faith is the foundation of all good things Faith is the beginning of mans saluation Without this none can come to the fellowship of the children of God because without this neither doth any in this world obtaine the grace of iustification neither shall â—e in the next possesse eternall life Thus saith S. Austen A. W. Well might this whole chapter haue bene spared especially since your proofe is no more direct for your purpose For Saint Paule in that place speaketh of a true iustifying faith which presupposeth a beleefe of all things knowne to be reuealed by God and requireth that a man should not onely acknowledge God to be a rewarder of them that come vnto him that is beleeue in him but also that he should rest vpon him as vpon such a one without which questionlesse no man can please God though he assent neuer so stedfastly to the truth of those and such like points But if you will needs expound the Apostle of assent onely I must put you in mind that by this place you can proue necessitie of faith no farther then for the beleeuing of those two points he specifieth That God is and That he is a rewarder of them that come vnto him Indeed whosoeuer doubts of these particulars thus declared in Scripture can neither be saued nor please God but it doth not follow hereupon that therefore there is a necessitie of faith to the beleeuing of other matters many whereof haue no dependance vpon either of these A. D. §. 3. And the same might be confirmed out of other Scriptures and Fathers but that the matter is cleare enough A. W. The first of these places Rom. 2. is I take it misquoted by the Printer 2. for 3. In the second there is not one word of faith the Apostle there labouring to conuince both Gentiles and Iewes of sin against God by the breach of the law of nature Moses The other two are to be vnderstood of true iustifying faith which must needs be more then assenting to the truth of that which God speaketh as the very phrase of beleeuing in Iesus Christ proueth which cannot with any likelihood of reason be takeÌ„ for giuing credit to those things which are spoken by or of our Sauiour Christ It is one thing to beleeue that God is Credere Deum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing to beleeue in God Credere in DeuÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though the latter alwayes imply the former and the former sometimes the latter Irenaeus hath not a syllable of the necessitie of faith in the place which you quote and where he speakes of it he onely shewes it was necessary that God should reueale his truth by his Word which was his Sonne because by the light of naturall reason all things necessary to saluation could not be found out This knowledge Irenaeus tyeth to the Scriptures Had it not bene better for you to haue spared these needlesse allegations in a matter that was out of question A. D. §. 4. Onely this I will adde that when the Scriptures do require faith as a thing absolutely necessary to saluation the common tradition of Councels and Fathers do interprete not onely that there is a positiue precept of faith for if it were but a positiue precept ignorance might excuse in some case but that at least some kind of faith is necessaria necessitate medij that is to say is ordained as a necessary means without which no man can attaine saluation in any case and that in this matter si quis ignorat ignorabitur if any man by ignorance do not know he shall not be knowne as S. Paul speaketh A. W. This interpretation of the Scriptures meaning in requiring faith as a thing absolutely necessary to saluation is altogether vnnecessary For who knowes not that there can be no saluation without that which is absolutely necessary therunto Therefore it was more then enough to name the common tradition of Councels and Fathers But such gay termes make a goodly shew in the eies of the simple But I pray tel me what haue you got by this learned interpretation Is there any Christian man so ignorant as to deny that some kind of faith is ordained as a necessary meanes without which men cannot attaine to saluation in any case Sure this can neither hurt vs who acknowledge faith to be necessary and if you speake of iustifying faith altogether sufficient to iustification nor helpe you who allow no faith but that which depends vpon the authoritie of the Church But the Councels and Fathers say that kind of faith is necessary What of that Do they therefore hold it necessary to saluation for a man to beleeue whatsoeuer the Church shall teach though without the warrant of Scripture Can a man in no case attaine to saluation without this faith May not the very reading of Scripture without any ministery of man be a meanes by the worke of Gods spirit in his heart to breed true faith to iustification and saluation The necessitie of faith is double First concerning faith as you take it for an assent it is not possible for any man to be
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
of this matter we must speake more at large hereafter A. D. CHAP. III. That this one faith necessarie to saluation is infallible A. W. If you had bene desirous that euery man should vnderstand you instead of infallible you would rather haue said certaine or without doubting especially since your selfe diuers times vsed the word in the passiue signification for that which may not be doubted of as being most certainly true In this sense you say afterward in this Chapter that the word of Christ is absolutely infallible and againe in the end of the Chapter that we must account the word of faith absolutely infallible A. D. §. 1. This one faith without which we cannot be saued must be infallible and most certaine This is cleare because faith is that credit or inward assents of minde which we giue to that which God who is the prime or first veritie which neither can deceiue nor be deceiued hath reuealed vnto vs by meanes of the preaching or teaching of the true Church as we may gather out of S. Paul when he saith Quomodo credent ei quem non audierunt quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur c. ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi The sense of which words is that sith we cannot beleeue vnlesse we heare nor beare vnlesse some lawfully sent do preach vnto vs faith is bred in vs by hearing and yeelding assent or credit to the word of Christ made knowne vnto vs by the preaching of the true Church which onely is lawfully sent of God wherefore like as the word of Christ being God is absolutely infallible so also the credit giuen to this word which is our faith must needs be also most certaine and infallible A. W. The title and beginning of the Chapter speake of faith as it is a grace or qualitie but the conclusion of the Chapter is concerning the infallibilitie or certaintie of the word of faith as you call it that is the thing to be beleeued so do you run from one thing to another But I may say of this Chapter as I haue done in part of the former that we acknowledge the truth of both these points and thinke your labour in prouing them altogether vnnecessary only in the former there may be some doubt For though it be out of question that we are to endeuor for the perfection as of all other graces of God so of that faith wherby we assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed yet it comes to passe sometimes by our infirmitie that our faith is accompanied with doubting And this as we heard before Sotus grants to be true of a Catholicke faith and prooues it by the prayer of the Apostles Lord increase our faith to which I may adde the like request of him that crying with teares said Lord I beleeue helpe my vnbeleefe But if any man desire to see a liuely patterne of this doubting let him looke vpon Dauid as he describes himselfe in the Psalme Certainly I haue cleansed my heart in vaine and washed my hands in innocency c. Then thought I to know this but it was too painfull for me And afterward so foolish was I and ignorant I was a beast before thee And yet the point he speaks of is a rulde case in Diuinitie propounded by him in the beginning of the Psalme namely that the prouidence of God watcheth ouer the righteous for their good and that he will be auenged of the wicked That faith which some Diuines call historicall is indeed such an assent goeth alwaies before iustifying faith at the least for the beleeuing of so much as is necessarie to iustification Which I note by the way that no man may be deceiued with an opinion that iustifying faith is an assent to the truth of Gods word whereas it is quite of another nature and hath place in the will rather then in the vnderstanding If you had said that God hath reuealed his truth to vs by the preaching of them that were in the true Church you had spokē more plainely and truely But how the true Church or any Church at all should be said to preach I professe I vnderstand not Neither can any such thing be gathered out of Saint Paule who speakes not a word of the Church true or false And to say the truth what a strange kind of speech is it to say The Church is sent to preach when as onely the Ministers preach and not the Church vnlesse perhaps Iohn Baptist only for a time was the Church whē he preached alone before our Sauiour was baptised But this same Church is a goodly faire word and couers a great many foule errours with the very name of it The Apostles who were they that God employed at the first beginning of the Gospell both in preaching and writing were vndoubtedly of the true Church both in respect of their election to euerlasting life and of the truth of the doctrine they held It is also true that God ordinarily begetteth faith in the hearts of men by the ministers of the true Church But it is not true that such an assent as you speake of cannot be wrought in a man by the ministery of Schismaticks or Hereticks though they be perhaps in neither respect any members of the true Church Did not Arius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius and many other wretched hereticks assent in generall to the truth of God in Scriptures because they held it to be the very true word of God And might not men by their preaching be brought to the same faith For our parts we make no doubt but that in the middest of ignorance and superstition many came to this faith by the preaching of your Antichristian Priests and so do at this day yea we adde further that we doubt not many haue wee are sure they might and may attaine to the same faith what if I say to iustifying faith too without any preaching by the reading of the Scriptures For since it is partly the matter that must argue the Scripture to be the word of God partly the maiesty which any man may discerne in the manner of writing vnlesse it can be poooued out of the Scripture that the holy Ghost will not worke by these vpō the heart of him that readeth but only of him that heareth a man expound this word vnto him I see no sufficient reason why faith may not be had by reading where Gods ordinance of preaching is onely wanting and not wilfully neglected But you will say the Apostle tyeth faith to hearing First this is little aduantage for you Papists amongst whom til shame emulation draue you to it within these last fiftie or threescore yeares no man could ordinarily heare the word of God in any tongue that he vnderstood and so all your hearing was to no purpose Secondly if hearing be sufficient where there is nothing but reading without any
in a matter of such weight The conclusion is that howsoeuer it is indeed a sinne and so in it selfe damnable to misbeleeue or not beleeue all and euery thing which God hath reuealed yet a man may be in the state of grace and saluation though he misbeleeue or through ignorance obstinately not beleeue something so reuealed In a word Not right beleeuing is neuer able to depriue a man of saluation but when that we beleeue amisse is a maine point of saluation obstinately not beleeuing onely then shuts vp heauen against vs when either the points we will not beleeue are fundamentall or our refusing to beleeue is against our owne iudgement and conscience If you had no further reach in this Chapter we were of the same mind with you but in propounding the reason of your assertion you bewray a further matter then at the first a man would imagine A. D. §. 2. The reason of this is because euery point of doctrine yea euery word that almightie God hath reuealed and by his Church propounded vnto vs to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued as we may gather out of Saint Marke where when our Sauiour had giuen charge to his Disciples to preach the Gospell to euery creature the which charge he also gaue in Saint Mathew saying Docete omnes gentes c. docentes eos seruare omnia quaecunque mandaui vobis Teach all nations c. teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you he pronounceth indefinitely Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that shall not beleeue shall be condemned not excepting or distinguishing any one point of doctrine as needlesse to be beleeued or which a man might at his pleasure misbeleeue or doubt of without danger A. W. Your first reason lieth thus If euery point and word reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued then faith must be entire But euery word so reuealed and propounded must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued Therefore faith must be entire The conclusion of this Syllogisme is acknowledged by vs for a certaine truth Faith must be entire but the premisses seeme liable to iust exception For first the antecedent and the consequent of the proposition are all one and so the proofe and that which is proued differ not What is it to say euery word reuealed by God must be beleeued but to affirme that faith must be entire Indeed if the questiō were of faith as it is a quality then the consequent might be inferred vpon the antecedent but since we speake of the things to be beleeued both are one If euery such word must be beleeued then we must beleeue euery such word It is the same faith by which all and by which some is beleeued but as the obiect or things beleeued make a difference which reacheth not to the faith it selfe within the soule Secondly the Assumption though it be true yet doth it containe something that had need to be warily considered First you so couple the reuealing by God and the propounding of a thing to be beleeued by the church as if the latter were no lesse necessary then the former to make a matter of faith wheras al things that God hath reuealed ought to be beleeued whether the Church propoūd them for such or no. For the reason why they are to be beleeued is that they proceed from God who must needs be credited in whatsoeuer he shal say in respect both of his truth in speaking and his authoritie in commaunding obedience But you Papists make the authoritie of the Church the very foundation of our beleefe The Scripture you say is in it selfe the word of God and so worthy of all credit but to vs it is not so but by the authoritie of the Church vpon the credit whereof we take it for the word of God Yea farther you limit faith in particular points by the determination of the Church so that no man shall be bound to beleeue as a point of faith any doctrine neuer so certainly proued out of Scripture vnlesse the Church haue resolued of it that it is true and whatsoeuer is by the Church concluded for true must be acknowledged for such by faith though it be beside or against the Scripture which as Cardinall Cusan is not ashamed nor afraid to say is fitted for the time and diuersly vnderstood So that it may at one time be expounded one way according to the generall current order of the Church and the same order being changed the Scripture also is changed And why should it not if as another Papist saith the holy Scripture take strength and authoritie from the doctrine of the Church and Bishop of Rome The Apostles saith Pighius haue written certaine things not that their writings should be aboue our faith but that they should be vnder it But what should I stand to recite your blasphemies in this kind which are many and monstrous That which is not to day a point of faith shall be one to morrow if it please the Pope to propound it to be beleeued It is farther to be considered in your Assumption that although whatsoeuer God reuealeth is to be beleeued vpō paine of damnation yet a man may be saued without beleeuing euery thing so reuealed alwayes prouided that he do not against his conscience obstinately refuse to acknowledge any truth If our Sauiour haue said that he which beleeueth not all that his Apostles teach shall be condemned then euery word so reuealed and propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation But our Sauiour hath said so Therefore euery word so propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation This is a proofe of your Assumption wherein for the consequence of your proposition I would haue all men vnderstand that although you craftily imply therein a comparison of equalitie betwixt the charge of beleeuing the Apostles and all other Ministers allowed by you whom you call by the name of the Church to deceiue simple people with so glorious a title yet the truth of that proposition depends not thereupon but onely vpon the necessitie of beleeuing that which God hath reuealed It is a certaine truth that God is to be beleeued in all things he hath reuealed by whom soeuer he propound it in this respect the consequence of your proposition is true That if it were damnable not to beleeue the Apostles deliuering that which God had reuealed it is also damnable not to giue credit to Ministers now when they propound that to be beleeued which God hath reuealed because the reason of beleeuing is that God hath reuealed the things that are deliuered But yet here are two differences to be obserued first that it is lesse sinne to doubt of that which any man besides the Apostles deliuers though it be the word of God then to make question of the same matter vttered by the
Peter as we heard Bellarmine say signifieth no more but that God keepes no man from being saued but hath vouchsafed the word and sacraments in common to all Your Glosse restraines that Any to them that are to be conuerted that is to the elect That other which are to be conuerted may be conuertea Thomas and Holkot interprete it de voluntate signi of that wil of God which we may gather by the signes he sheweth as for example God calleth all men from danger of damnation by precepts counsels threatnings rewards These are signes to vs that God would haue all men to be saued but there is another will called volunt as beneplaciti the good pleasure of God which is indeed truly that which God intendeth Thomas addeth also a second exposition out of Damascen but it can proue nothing because it cannot be necessarily enforced out of the text rather then the other which is also more warrantable for the truth of it as I will shew another time vpon more iust occasion if it please God Caietan alledgeth three seuerall interpretations that of Damascens a second of All kind of men whereof before and a third of the elect which also he doth exemplifie in the person of Peter Thus I haue shewed that the maine foundation you build vpon is but weak wanting ground of warrant from the word of God But admit it were neuer so true that God would haue euery man to be saued which in some sense as I haue said indeed is most true yet were not the consequence of your proposition proued For there might be sufficient meanes for euery mans saluation though there were no meanes to bring him to that same one infallible entire faith which you conceit but onely to so much faith and knowledge as is necessary to saluation by which he might be sufficiently instructed in matters of faith which is all that you craftily seeme to require in the conclusion of this section whereas before in your proposition no lesse would serue the turne then infallible instruction in all points questions and doubts of faith A. D. §. 2. To this purpose saith S. Austin Si Dei prouidentia praesidet rebus humanis non est desperandum ab eodem ipso Deo auctoritatem aliquam constitutam esse qua velut certo gradu nitentes attollamur in Deum If Gods prouidence saith he rule and gouerne humane matters as he proueth that it doth we may not despaire but that there is a certain authoritie appointed by the same God vpon which staying our selues as vpon a sure step we may be lifted vp to God Saint Austin therefore doth acknowledge some authoritie to be needfull as a meanes whereby we may be lifted vp to God The which lifting vp to God is first begun by true faith And because this authoritie is so needfull a meanes he would not haue vs doubt but that God whose prouidence stretcheth it selfe to all humane matters hath not failed to prouide this meanes for vs it being a principal matter and so principall as vpon which according to the ordinary course dependeth the summe of our saluation We are not therefore I say to doubt but that Almghtie God hath prouided a meanes whereby Animalis homo qui non percipit ea que sunt spiritus Dei a sensuall man who hath no vnderstanding of the diuine mysteries of faith may come to know them by a firme and infallible beleefe A. W. To what purpose doth Saint Austine bring this To proue that God hath appointed a rule by which all men may come to your infallible faith Nothing lesse but to shew that where truth is not euident as to men ordinarily it is not there God hath prouided meanes to stirre them vp to a diligent enquiry after it or rather as he plainly affirmeth to a ridding of themselues of the cares and pleasures of this life which he cals purging of the soule that so they may be fit to embrace the truth Authoritie saith Austin is at hand for a man that is not able to discerne the truth that he may be fitted to it and suffer himselfe to be purged What is this authoritie what is the vse of it Miracles multitude make vp this authoritie whereby men not able to see truth in it self are moued to a reuerend respect of the Church so to an examination of the doctrine which vpon triall is found true Thus doth the wisedome of God prouide for mens ignorance that authoritie of miracles and multitude may draw them to a consideration of the truth which whensoeuer it shewes it selfe so plainly that it cannot be doubted of is to be preferred before all other meanes of perswading a man to beleeue or holding him in beleefe whatsoeuer as the same Austin saith we denie not these to be good helpes and strong meanes to the searching and finding of the truth but to be sufficient and infallible grounds of religion that a man should relie vpon them without trying the doctrine by the truth of God reuealed in the Scriptures It is indeed out of doubt among Christians that God hath prouided some meanes by which a naturall man whom you absurdly call sensuall whereas the Apostle meaneth a man in his best natural estate since his fal who cānot discerne of Gods truth nor admit of it may come to the knowledge thereof Because it was impossible saith Irenaeus to learne God without God he teacheth men by his word his sonne to know God It is he that hath vouchsafed vs this knowledge by the ministery of men worke of the spirit in their hearts that beleeue according to the word of God in the Scriptures Let vs not heare saith Austin This I say This thou sayest but let vs heare This saith the Lord there are the Lords bookes extant to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs obey there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our question Other meanes of triall then by the Scripture he accounteth and calleth deceitfull The Scriptures are the bounds of the Church beyond which she may not wander Whatsoeuer any man since the Apostles hath seene without warrant of Scripture let him be neuer so holy neuer so eloquent it is of no authoritie but onely to mooue vs to a consideration of that he saith A. D. §. 3. Onely the question is what manner of thing this meanes must be and where euerie man must seeke and finde it that hauing found it he may as S. Austen speaketh stay himselfe vpon it as vpon a sure step thereby to be lifted vp to a true faith and by faith to God The which question being of so great consequence that it being well determined a man need neuer make more question in matters of faith I wil God willing in the chapters following endeuor to resolue it as clearely as I can And this I purpose to do first by
expositions cannot be that rule of faith which we seeke for which must on the one side be determinately and plainly vnderstood and on the other side it must be vnfallible certaine and such as cannot erre A. W. That second condition of easinesse to be vnderstood is no propertie necessarily belonging to the rule of faith vnlesse perhaps you imagine that God failes in his prouidence if a man may not come to the knowledge of the truth and euerlasting life without any paines Is it not enough that the rule is such as may be vnderstood of euery one vnlesse a man may know it by dreaming of it Is not the knowledge of the meanes of saluatiō worthy of some care and labour Are the Scriptures obscure and hard that they cannot be vnderstood How then saith the holy Ghost that they giue wisedome vnto the simple and light to the eyes that they are a lanterne to our feet and a light to our paths that the entrance into them sheweth light and giueth vnderstanding to the simple Why doth the Apostle call them a light shining in a darke place And yet all this is spoken of the Scriptures of the old Testament which in comparison of the new are indeed obscure Your Glosse expounds that place Thy word is a lanterne of all the holy Scriptures Your Cardinall Turrecremata seeing the plainnesse and clearnesse of the word of God so directly and expresly commended applieth those places to the new Testament which as he said is bright and cleere which enlightens our darknesse and giues vnderstanding to the humble And who can doubt that the Scriptures are such as may be vnderstood by all men seeing the Lord writ them for the instruction of all men and our Sauiour Christ in the Gospell commendeth the Iewes for searching the Scriptures affirming that in them there is proofe of his nature and office But to what purpose were this search if nothing could be found by it So cleare is this truth that the auncient writers auow it without any doubting Hearken ye that be farre off hearken ye that be neare The word of God is hid from no man it shineth to all men there is no great darknesse in the word The Scriptures saith Irenaeus are plaine and without doubtfulnesse and may be heard alike of all men Giue heed saith Iustin the martyr to those things that I wil rehearse out of the Scriptures which are such as need hearing onely and not any expounding This as the Greek sheweth is to be vnderstood not onely of those places which he was then to deliuer but generally of the Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That the Scriptures might be knowne to all men great and litle they are profitably commended to vs in a familiar speech so that they are not aboue any mans capacitie Yea there is nothing in them hard saith the same author to them that are conuersant in them as they ought to be though euery sentence be obscure to Iulian and his complices The like hath Epiphanius All things are cleare in the Scriptures to them who will bring to the vnderstanding of the word of God a religious kind of discourse Where that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which Epiphanius requireth seemeth to be nothing els but a reuerend examining of the Scripture according to the holy Ghosts manner of speaking and reasoning in the Scripture In another place he saith that Al things are cleare plaine in the holy Scriptures So also saith Chrysostom And a litle after he teacheth vs how to restraine those All things All things saith he that are necessary are open and manifest In another place comparing the Apostles with the Philosophers he saith that the Philosophers indeed writ obscurely that they might be had in admiration for their eloquence and learning but the Apostles and Prophets take a contrary course deliuering all things plainly and cleerly to all men as being the common teachers of al the world that euery one by himselfe might be able to learne those things that were taught euen by the onely reading of them He saith yet further that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood of seruants of countrey people of widowes of children yea and of him that is very vnskilful I could be large in this matter a few more testimonies shall suffice God saith Austin hath applied the Scriptures to the vnderstanding of infants and sucklings Therefore he iustly reproueth Iulian who as you Papists do now layd out with many words the hardnesse of the Scripture yet is it not to be denied that the Scriptures are hard but as hard as they are enough may be learned out of them euen by the simplest for his saluation There is meate for strong men saith Fulgentius and milke for babes There hath God altogether prouided for the saluation of all whō he vouchsafeth to saue Euery man saith Austin may draw from thence as much as is sufficient for him But is this knowledge to be had with idlenesse and carelesnesse Nothing lesse If you wil perswade your selues saith Chrysostome to bestow paines and diligence in reading surely nothing shal be wanting for your vnderstanding of the Scriptures There are indeed as Austin saith hard places in the Scripture yet no other then are other where in plaine termes expounded There is great obscuritie saith Ambrose in the writings of the Prophets but if thou knocke at the gate of the Scriptures with a certain hand of thy mind and diligently examine those things which are hidden by little and little thou shalt begin to gather the sense of that which is spoker and it shal be opened to thee by no other but by the word of God For it is the order of the Scriptures saith Ierome to hard things to ioyne other that are plaine The circumstance of the Scripture saith Austin doth giue light to the sense of it The fewer saith Tertullian must be vnderstood by the more That rule of Austins must alwayes be remembred that we come with deuout and religious affection to the reading of the Scriptures as true religion requireth And as Chrysostome saith we must seeke namely by prayer if we wil find the sense of the Scripture For as Origen saith vpon the like occasion it is hidden from them that are negligent but opened to them that knock and found of them that seeke The reason why God hath so tempered all things in scripture writing some where plainly some where obscurely is giuen by Austin That it is done by Gods prouident care that by labour he might beate downe our pride and draw away our minds from lothing things easily attained to seem of litle worth Gloriously therefore as he saith and wholsomly hath the holy Ghost so tempered the Scriptures that by plaine and easie places he might prouide for the satisfying of our hunger and by hard and darke
take away lothing But as he addeth in those places which are plaine in the Scriptures all those matters are found which containe faith and good manners that is hope and charitie This is that which Marsilius of Padua aboue 800 years since disputed against the Pope That the Gospel was very sufficient perfect cleare of it self that by it we may be directed immediatly concerning and in all things which belong to a mans obteyning of euerlasting life and auoiding miserie As in the former propertie hauing propounded your matter against the Scripture you reason only against the English translation so in this that one may be some what sutable to the other being to speake of the obscuritie of the Scripture you shew that it is hard to one kinde onely viz vnlearned men though you helpe the matter a little afterward by auouching the hardnesse of it euen to the learned also The Scriptures say you are not the rule of faith Why so Because they are hard to be vnderstood of those vnlearned mē that cannot reade them Is not the teaching of the Church whereto you ascribe so much vnpossible to be vnderstood by them that cannot heare Is it therefore no sufficient rule But the Scripture is not so hard as you imagine no not to them that cannot reade as long as they may heare it read and haue care to vnderstand and remember what they heare Yea there are many in England that know neuer a letter on the booke who notwithstanding are able to giue a better sense of many places of Scripture then some of your Masse-priests that can read their whole Portuise Seruice booke Idle therefore and ridiculous is your example of a man lockt vp with a Bible since by hearing it read though himselfe cannot read he may attaine to more knowledge then many of your blinde guides haue who for all their skill in reading vnderstand neuer a word of their Epistles Gospels which they daily say at Masse like prating parrots Now for your conclusions inferred hereupon the first as I haue shewed is false that any such entire and infallible faith is necessarie so that without it a man cannot be saued the second of the meanes without which such a faith cannot be had is ordinarily true the third which denies the Scripture alone to be such a meanes is either false and not prooued by you or nothing to the purpose Can any man truely say that God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for euerie mans saluation because some men are vnable to reade the Scriptures which are those meanes Hath not God done his part in making all men capable to reade though many neglect to learne Therefore if the Scripture be sufficient for all mens instruction as I haue prooued it to be for all your supposed obscurity God cannot be charged with want of care because men are carelesse to vse the meanes of their owne saluation But if by Scripture alone you meane Scripture without any helpe of man all you say is besides the matter For no man euer was so foolish as to make Scripture alone in that sense either the rule of faith or a meanes of any good whatsoeuer vnlesse perhaps you Papists according to the rest of your superstition in Agnus Deis hallowed Granes and such like may haue a conceit as those priests of whom an ancient writer speaketh had that a part of the Gospell hung about ones necke may be a preseruatiue against I know not what bodily or ghostly danger You haue vndertaken to prooue that the scriptures are not the rule of faith because they are hard to be vnderstood Their hardnesse in respect of the ignorant was auowed by you onely against those that cannot reade Now for the learned you tel vs that they cannot by onely reading the Scriptures be infallibly sure that they rightly vnderstand them What then Therefore can they not at all be sure Because reading onely will not assure them therefore is there no meanes whereby they may be assured Call to minde what I alledged before out of Ambrose Origen Chrysostome and Austin who doubt not to assure men that they may come to the vnderstanding of the Scripture if they will vse the meanes of praier and diligence Whom shall we beleeue These worthies of the Church speaking also vpon manifold experience or you whom we know not so much as by sight or name If you can so farre bewitch any of your owne poore ignorant soules yet sure ther is no man of any indifferent good iudgment that will be carried away with this your simple authoritie against the ioynt consent of those famous Diuines But you will adde reason to your authoritie let vs heare it It may be say you they ought to be vnderstood otherwise Therefore they cannot be sure they rightly vnderstand Tell me I pray you for my better instruction whether you make this doubt of all places of scripture or of some onely It will not sinke into my head that you doe so much condemne the scripture of obscuritie that you thinke no one place of it can be certainely vnderstood Nay it is vnpossible you should so despise the iudgment of those I named er while or condemne your owne capacitie as to denie that many texts of scripture are so euident that a childe cannot mistake the meaning of them Then that antecedent It may be they ought to vnderstand otherwise in some places of scripture can haue no place Let vs limit it that the truth may appeare Some places of scripture are so hard that a man may vnderstand them otherwise then in truth they are to be vnderstood This proposition is out of all question what wil you conclude hereupon That men cannot be sure they rightly vnderstand these places I grant this too Therefore these doubtfull places are not to be made the foundation of our faith but as Austin saith We must rest vpon those places of scripture which are verie manifest that by them the harder may be expounded But admit there were diuers texts of scripture which can by no meanes be certainly vnderstood which yet for my part sauing other mens better iudgement I do not thinke to be true because God hath appointed euerie syllable of the scripture for our instruction in this life but admit I say there were such places yet would it not follow hereupon that because those texts cannot be vnderstood therefore the scripture is so obscure that it cannot be the rule of faith For there may be sufficient means of saluation plainly discouered in the scriptures though these places be not vnderstood yea it may be and it is verie likely that the verie same things which in these places are signified are otherwhere in scripture apparently set downe You will say this prooueth that the scripture is obscure in some places VVho euer denied it But this doth not prooue that it is hard to be vnderstood in those points that are necessary to saluation Remember I denied
that second property of your rule when I answered to your proposition A man may be saued though he vnderstand not the true sense of euery verse in the Bible so he do not acknowledge it to be the word of God and withall denie it to be true But if it be so hard to vnderstand the Scripture aright is it good dealing in you to vrge the expositions of men with such perē ptorinesse as if it were an hainous sinne not to giue credit to euery interpretation of the Fathers We acknowledge their learning and pietie but we remember they are men and therefore may be deceiued Where they bring reason for their expositions we consider of it with reuerence to them where they bring none we trie whether we can bring any proofe of their interpretation If we finde none we labour to expound the text so as true reason so farre as we can iudge shewes that we ought to doe Where our weakenesse affoords no proofe for our interpretation nor against theirs we are willing and readie to giue more credit to them then to our selues But it is no disgrace to them that processe of time by Gods blessing vpon mens endeauours should bring somewhat to light now which in former ages hath not bene vnderstood It cannot be hidden from any man saith your Bishop of Rochester that many things are now more cleerely beaten out and vnderstood as well in other things as in the Gospell then heretofore because the ancient writers had not the Ice broken before them neither did their time suffice to sound the deepth of Scripture in all places VVe may adde hereunto another reason obserued by Stella that though of our selues we were but Pigmees or dwarfes yet being carried vpon the shoulders of them as it were vpon Giants we may see farther then they could VVhich is the reason why an other of your writers doubts not to affirme that the latter doctrines or expositions are the quicker sighted But diuers men you say expound diuersly and thereupon you demaund how any man can be sure he expounds truly hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason VVhen I read this obiection me thought I saw one of the old Academicks or Scepticks sweating to prooue that there is no truth in any thing to be knowen but that we must be content to rest vpon likelihood I pray you answer me in good earnest Are you perswaded of your selfe I speake to a Scholler that you vnderstand not the true meaning of any one place in Aristotles Physicks with the commentaries vpon him expounding diuersly Surely if your ignorance had bene so great I presume neither Rome Rhemes Doway nor any other Vniuersitie or Colledge would haue vouchsafed you the degree of a Batcheler in Arts. And yet Aristotle himselfe professeth of that booke that he set it out as if he had not set it out because no bodie for sooth could vnderstand it but he that had or should heare him teach by word of mouth as you speake of the preaching of the Church If then it be possible to vnderstand Aristotles meaning and that certainly for all the diuers interpretations of his expositors and his owne intended obscuritie giue vs leaue to thinke that the Lord God purposing to reueale his will by the scriptures hath written in such sort that man his creature to whom as Gregorie saith he writ them may without any iust cause of doubting vnderstand so much at the least as is necessarie for his saluation which was Gods end in writing But euerie interpreter thinks that himselfe hath attained to the right sense What of that Therefore is there no meanes to discerne which interpretation is true which false Doth not this doubt accompanie the writings of the Philosophers as well as the scriptures Neuer go about to perswade vs to such an iniurious and vnthankfull conceit towards God as to imagine that he hath vouchsafed vs the vse of reason and the treasure of his word to so little purpose If it be vnpossible to know whē we haue the true sense of the scripture it had bene farre better that no scripture had bene written but all left to the direction of your Pope frō time to time Such blasphemies as I haue shewed some of your side vtter but a true Christiā is so throughly perswaded of Gods wisdom that by his giuing the scripture he seeth al these your cauils shifts refuted Now in the last place you tell vs that there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of scripture which are found in very few If by perfect vnderstanding you meane an exact knowledge of all places that you say is true but not much to the purpose For there is no such knowledge necessary but that the scripture may be the rule of faith though euery text in it cannot be certainly vnderstood But consider a little that if there be means of attaining to a perfect vnderstāding of scripture thogh they be many yet by your confession they may be had else are they in vaine if neither any man nor all men can attaine vnto them some to one some to more as it pleaseth God to bestow his gifts seuerally If you meane that many things are required to a perfect vnderstanding of points necessarie to saluation see how much you differ from the iudgement of the ancient Fathers The truth is not hid saith Chrysostom but from thē that will not seeke it And in an other place The Scripture expoundeth it selfe suffereth no man to erre Let him that hath an heart saith Austin read those things that go before and those that follow and he shall finde the sense For as Ierome truly saith the Lord hath spoken by his Gospell not that a few should vnderstand him but that all should Austin gaue vs the reason before why he speakes plaine in some places and not in all To feed our hunger and to keepe our queasie stomacks from loathing our meate But you require I know not what infallible assurance that they which haue these gifts may be sure they neuer erre in any of their priuate expositions What assurance looke you for No reuelation I hope They may be sure not to erre if they deliuer no expositions but such as they can euidently prooue to be true For other places where the sense is hard let them vse all the diligence they can and if it prooue not verie plaine and certaine let thē leaue it y vncertain til it please God some other man may finde the true meaning of it and so make it knowen to men for the rule of faith in that point it concerneth as it is alwaies in it selfe Are youe afraid lest it should come to passe hereby that many matters of faith should be vnknowen The ignorance of these things cannot hinder a mans saluation and this inconuenience followeth the preaching of your Church as well as the reading of
the scripture For how many points of doctrine are there not yet decreed of by your Church How many thousand places of scripture not yet expounded by it If then it be no hindrance to saluation for a man to be ignorant of the truth in many points and places of scripture may not the written word of God be the rule of faith though diuers things in it be not certainly vnderstood A. D. §. 3. Thirdly they faile in the third condition For the Scriptures are not so vniuersall as the rule of faith had need to be For this rule ought to be so vniuersall that it may be able absolutely to resolue and determine all doubts and questions of faith which eyther haue bene or may hereafter be in controuersie for otherwise there were not sufficient meanes prouided by which schisme and heresies might be auoided vnitie of faith so necessarie to saluation might be conserued among Christian men A. W. The last imperfection you note in the Scripture whereby you would make it insufficient to be the rule of faith is the scantnesse of it that it conteineth not all things necessarie to be beleeued which you go about to prooue thus The rule of faith must be able absolutely to resolue all doubts of faith that haue bene or may be The Scripture is not able absolutely to resolue all such doubts Therefore the Scripture is not the rule of faith I should haue let your proposition passe without any question but that I am so vsed to your craft in speaking doubtfully For feare whereof I would faine vnderstand what the reason is why you put in absolutely If your intent be to signifie that the resolution must be certainly true you might haue spoken plainly as you meant But it may be you vnderstand by resoluing absolutely such a kinde of resolution as shall take away all outward contention which sometimes is indeed brought to passe by the Decrees of your Popes no man daring for feare of his life once to open his mouth against them Such a resolution the scripture cannot giue neither is it to be looked for that the rule of faith should be of that nature It is enough that it shew plainly and certainly what is true in all matters of faith Secondly the controuersies of faith you speake of must be indeed matters that require beleefe otherwise the rule of faith is not to meddle with them To speake more plaine It is not to be held as a duetie of the rule of faith that it should be able to determine of euerie idle question that curious and contentious heads can deuise For example if any man will make question of the Virgin Marie whether she were as you teach fifteene yeare old or perhaps eighteene or nineteen when our Sauiour Christ her Sonne was borne whether she were threescore three whē she died or more or lesse In these a thousād such matters deliuered as points of faith by your Priests and Iesuits it is not to be expected that the rule of faith should affoord any resolution We grant that infinite questions of your schoolemen positiōs of your Diuines cannot be determined by the rule of faith but only thus that they may be cōuinced to be no matters of beleefe that a Christian must needs think thus or thus of thē because they cannot be prooued either one way or other by scripture your proposition therefore is true onely of those things that are needfull to be beleeued all which may be certainly resolued by it What cannot is not of necessitie to be held by faith Your proposition you prooue as you thinke by this reason If there be no sufficient meanes prouided by which schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitie among Christians conserued vnlesse the rule of faith be able to resolue all such doubts then it must be able to resolue them But there is no sufficient meanes prouided whereby schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitic conserued vnlesse the rule be able to resolue all such doubts Therefore the rule of faith must be able to resolue them If the proposition be taken in that sense which the former may seeme to haue as I shewed then I denie the consequence therof that is I say it doth not follow that if there be no sufficiēt means prouided whereby schismes and heresies shall de facto and in euēt be auoided vnlesse the rule of faith be able to shew what is true what false in all questions that any man will mooue then the rule must be able so to doe The reason of my deniall is that as before I answered it is sufficient for the rule to shew what is true in matters of faith and let vs know that those are not needfull to be beleeued of the truth whereof it saith nothing anie way The assumption also is false though you speak not of actuall auoiding of heresie and schisme For there is sufficient meanes prouided for the auoiding of schisme because nothing must be held for certain truth which cannot be prooued to be according to the rule which is the onely measure of true vnitie among Christians A. D. §. 4. But the Scriptures be not thus vniuersall For there be diuers questions or doubts moued now a dayes and those also touching very substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely Scripture For where haue we any expresse Scripture to proue that all those and onely those bookes which Catholickes or Protestants hold for Scripture are indeed Gods word and true Scripure This we shall not find expresly set downe in a part of Scripture This point therefore whereupon dependeth the certaintie of euery point proued out of Scripture cannot be made certaine to our knowledge or beliefe vnlesse we admit some other infallible rule or authoritie wherupon we may ground an vnfallible beleefe which infallible rule if we admit to assure vs that there is at all any Scripture and that those bookes and no other be Canonicall Scripture why should we not admit the same to assure vs vnfallibly which is the true sense and meaning of the same Scripture Hereupon S. Austin saith very well Cur non apud eos diligentissimè requiram quid Christus praeceperit quorum auctoritate commotus Christum aliquid praecepisse iam credidi Tune mihi meliùs expositurus es quid ille dixerit c. Why shold I not most diligently ask or learne of those he meaneth of the Catholicke Church what Christ hath commanded by whose authoritie I was moued to beleeue that Christ commanded any thing at all What wilt thou expound vnto me better what he hath said that is to say the meaning of his words Quae saith he ista tanta dementia est illis crede Christo esse credendum à nobis disce quid ille dixerit multo facilius mihi persuaderem Christo non esse credendum quà m de illo quidquam nisi ab ijs per quos
therein What art what writing of any man is so bare Are the Scriptures onely that come immediatly from the author of true reason to be barred of that priuiledge which all other writings iustly challenge Is not a necessary consequence according to the rules of logicke and reason to be allowed of in Diuinitie as well as in the Mathematicks where consectaries are as certainly true as the theoremes out of which they are drawne Is it not as certaine by Scripture that there are three persons distinct each from other and all three but one God as if these verie words had bin expresly set downe But we must beare with you in this matter who learned this shift of your great Cardinal Bellarmine We say quoth Bellarmine where he deliuereth the opinion of your Church that the whole doctrine of faith and manners is not expresly contained in the Scriptures Expresly contained To be expressed and to be contained are at the least diuers if not contrary But I pray you who saith otherwise Not the Protestants doubtlesse whose opinion he propoundeth presently after this sort They preach saith Bellarmine speaking of vs that all things necessary to faith and manners are contained in the Scriptures What is become now of expresly For pure shame he was glad to leaue out that word though he had craftily stolen it in before Well this may serue to make good my deniall of your proposition A thing may be determinable by Scripture though the determination be not expresly set downe therein Take not aduantage of my words because I say determinable and you determined For the question is not what is determined that is set downe in plaine words but it is sufficient if the Scripture affoord vs the determination of matters by certain consequēce vpon truth therein deliuered Therefore whereas you adde by onely expresse Scripture onely and expresse are but meere shifts nothing at all against that we affirme who require besides onely expresse words of Scripture the ministery and industry of man to gather and conclude points of doctrine out of that which is written in the Scripture Your assumption is true that there are diuers questions not determinable by expresse Scripture and yet as I haue shewed the Scripture is sufficient for the determining of all points of faith necessary to saluation Concerning the particular question you bring for the proofe of your assumption First you seeme to grant and that grant is as much as we require that it may be gathered out of the Scripture by consequence that those books which we and you acknowledge to be the word of God are so indeed otherwise why say you that we shall not find it expresly set downe in a part of Scripture Secondly I demaund as before who moueth this question Not the Protestants who account it a kind of blasphemie to denie it and of infidelitie to doubt of it Your holy Church of Rome is she that hath buzzed this matter into Christian mens eares so that religion is thereby become a scorne to Atheists while you make no conscience of discrediting the word of God so you may by any meanes increase the reputation of your Apostaticall sea The truth is that this opinion is not a matter now a dayes first set abroach for Atheists such as Iulian haue from time to time obiected it therefore might you haue spared to mention it as a question now a dayes moued But it is new and strange yea almost incredible that Christians and those Diuines yea such as thinke religion resteth on their shoulders as the Poets faine heauen doth vpon Atlas should make a question whether the Scriptures be the word of God or no and so giue men occasion to doubt thereof Thirdly if this matter cannot be resolued of by the Scripture we shall be little the nearer for the infallible authoritie you haue deuised Christians need it not who are already perswaded that the bookes of the old and new Testament are the vndoubted word of God and with Christians onely to speake truly and properly hath the Church to do ordinarily But it falleth out sometimes that amongst those which make profession of Christianitie there are some found who are in doubt of this point If this doubt arise in the heart of a man that maketh conscience of religion he is to be taught that it is but a tentation of Satan and therefore not to be hearkened to Further we must demaund the reasons of his doubting shewing him how absurd and vnreasonable a matter it is to make question of that which generally both Protestants and Papists hold and which hath bene held by the space of 1500. yeares vnlesse he be able to giue very sufficient cause why he may doubt His arguments if he bring any must be answered and the Scriptures auowed by the matter and manner of writing which is such as will certainly if not conuert yet conuince any man in the world that man is not the deuiser of those bookes If he be an Atheist that derideth religion and withall so vnreasonable that the former and many other important proofes will not perswade him what remaines but that the magistrate whom God hath appointed to see true religion established cut off so corrupt a member by lawfull authoritie Where this course is not taken what meanes haue you to helpe the matter Will you tell him of an infallible authoritie in the Church He will laugh at your folly who instead of prouing beg the question I doe not beleeue saith he there is any such Church or authoritie If I doubt of the Scripture you proue it by the Church if I beleeue there is not any such Church or authoritie in the Church you will perswade me by Scripture To say the truth who can be so patient or foolish rather as to suffer himselfe to be led vp downe in a ring as it were a doore turning vpon hinges still in the same place The authoritie of the Church is an argument of such waight as that he is not to be counted either a Christiā or a man of reason that is not much moued therewithall yea so much as that he will not dissent from the continuall iudgement of it vnlesse he be driuen to it by certaine reason but yet this authoritie is not infallible Christ euermore iudgeth truly saith Austin but the Ecclesiasticall iudges as being men are very often deceiued And therefore he saith in another place that he is not bound to giue his consent without libertie to refuse to any thing but the Canonicall Scriptures And in an Epistle to Ierome I haue learned saith he to giue this reuerence and honour onely to those bookes that are called Canonicall that I constantly beleeue that no writer of any of them hath erred But to make an end of this needlesse question where both sides are agreed let vs heare Saint Austin speake to the Manichees If you aske vs saith he how we know that these
no man euer dreamed of viz. that we commonly build our faith vpon our English translation So that the Scripture may well be the rule of faith for ought that you haue said against it concerning the first propertie of certaine truth which it were blasphemie to denie of the scripture For the second that the rule must be easie to vnderstand I haue shewed that there is no necessitie of that condition and that the scripture is easie in matters necessary to saluation In the last point of the scriptures defect touching many things that must needs be beleeued you do both wrong God in making his word writtē so vnperfect and by a foolish craft insteed of proouing that the scripture containeth not all matters of faith needfull to saluation vndertake to shew that which no man denieth that all points of beleefe are not expresly set down and determined by scripture And lest we should forget your shuffling in this point you offer new proofe of a needlesse matter from the authoritie of Austin Basil and Epiphanius whose testimonies I alledged before to prooue the sufficiencie of the scripture in all matters necessarie to saluation The places by you alledged are not of such matters neither speake of things not expresly contained but onely shew that for matters of fact ceremonie the Apostles haue not determined al particulars The Apostles saith Austin haue commaunded nothing touching not rebaptising them which haue bene baptised by hereticks but the custome which was pleaded against Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue had beginning from their tradition as there are many things which the Church euery where holdeth that we wel beleeue therefore to haue beene enioyned by the Apostles though they are not found written What is this to prooue that there are matters necessarie to be beleeued to saluation which are not exprest in the scriptures Basil was not the the author of that Treatise at the least of the latter part of it from about the 17. chapter and so forward That appeareth first by obseruing the difference of style being neither like Basils writing nor in one place like an other as Erasmus hath truly obserued who translated it Secondly by the fond discourse he maketh propounding one thing handling an other and concluding a third which not onely Basil would neuer haue done but no man of any discretion Last of all he bewraieth himselfe to be a counterfeit by speaking of Meletius as one dead long before who liued in his time ouerliued him as it is manifest by the Ecclesiasticall historie But admit the booke were Basils what is there in it to proue that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in Scripture This Author saith that we must beleeue oraditions VVhat In matters of doctrine There is no such word in him He speaketh of outward carriage in ceremonies and phrases of speech The question in that part of his Treatise is of the preposition with that is to speake that euery man may vnderstand whether it be lawfull to say in the Church seruice and otherwise Glorie be to the Father and to the Sonne with the holy Ghost or whether we must needs say and to the holy Ghost not with For this speech that author pleades tradition Do we denie any such matter Or do we not acknowledge the libertie and authoritie of the Churches in such matters Who sees not that our custome now is to say Glory be to the Father to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost Not that thereby we condemne the other kind of speech but because in matters left to our libertie we take that which seemeth fittest Epiphanius speaking of praier for the dead which hath no warrant of Scripture is glad to helpe himselfe with the authoritie of tradition telling vs that some things must be held by tradition and not all taken out of the scriptures But Epiphanius doth not say that this is a doctrine or action necessarie to saluation A. D. §. 6. Some obiect against this conclusion that place of S. Paul Omnis Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad docendum c. vt perfectus sit homo c. But this place prooueth nothing against that which I haue said For it saith not that scripture alone is sufficient to instruct a man to perfection but that it is profitable for this purpose as it is indeed and the rather because it commendeth vnto vs the authoritie of the Church which as I shall afterwards proue is sufficient Now it is certaine that to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient be farre different things Stones and Timber be profitable to the building of an house yet they alone without a worke-man to square them and set them in order be not sufficient for this purpose A. W. Of this place I haue spoken sufficiently otherwhere and shewed that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise to saluation and therefore sufficient to that purpose Now the Apostle hauing giuen that commendation to the scripture vers 15. proceedeth in the next to exemplifie that in particular which he had before said in generall It is able to make thee wise to saluation it is able to fit thee to teaching reproouing correcting instructing Can any reasonable man thinke that the Apostle deliuering by way of amplification his former commendation of the scripture that he might the rather stirre vp Timothie to the studie of it would say lesse then he had done before But it is a great deale lesse to say no more but the scripture is profitable to such purposes then to commend it as able to make a man wise to saluation Therefore though the word indeed doe not expresly signifie sufficiencie yet it cannot be doubted but the profit mentioned implieth such a sufficiencie especially since he addeth perfection which must arise from this word of God And so as I haue shewed elsewhere do Chrysostome and Theophylact vnderstand it who make the Apostle speake to Timothie to this effect that he being now to be offred vp leaueth the scriptures in his steed of which he may in all things take aduise and counsell as if the Apostle himselfe were present with him But you forsooth would make vs beleeue that the scripture is indeed profitable to this end but not sufficient Is not the knowledge of arts tongues philosophy and history of verie good vse also to this purpose Slender then too slender is the commendation our Apostle giueth the scriptures if it be of no greater excellēcy then these humane furtherances but only in a certain degree of profit To helpe the matter you propound one particular for which the scripture is profitable namely to commend vnto vs the authority of the Church But neither doth it cōmend to vs any such authority as you imagin if that be the rule of the scripture one sentēce had bin as good better then
that which a man deduceth by necessarie and certaine consequence through his wit and learning out of the Scriptures is as strong and sure a foundation of faith as that which is expressed there in plaine termes VVe may see by this it was not for nothing that Bellarmine and you by his example foyst in expressely into the question which is betwixt vs concerning the sufficiencie of the Scriptures to be the rule of faith But of this enough A. D. §. 3. This same reason I confirme yet againe more strongly For the rule of faith must be able to propose to vs vnfallibly not onely the letters and seeming sense but the true sense of Gods word and the sense intended by the holy Spirit of God the author of this word otherwise it cannot be a sufficient meanes to breed in vs an infallible Christian faith and beleefe which is onely grounded vpon the true sense intended by Almightie God the prime or first veritie the speaker of this word But no man nor no companie of men can by their natural wit and learning tel vnfallibly what especially in all points of faith is the true intended sense of Gods word For as S. Paul saith Quis cognouit sensum Domini Who hath knowne to wit by nature art or learning the sense of our Lord Quae Dei sunt saith the same S. Paul nemo cognouit nisi spiritus Dei those things which are of God no man hath knowne but the spirit of God And therefore that knowledge which himselfe had of diuine matters came not from any naturall wit of man but as he plainly affirmeth from the spirit of God Nobis reuelauit Deus per Spiritum suum God hath reuealed vnto vs saith he by his Spirit Therefore we may well conclude That no one man nor no companie of men without the assistance of Gods spirit can either by interpreting Scripture or otherwise be the rule of faith A. W. It seemeth the former reason did not fully satisfie your selfe because you make profession of a more strong confirmation thereof which lieth thus The rule of faith must be able to propose infallibly to vs the true sence of the word of God intended by the holy Ghost But no naturall wit or learning is able to propose infallibly that sence Therefore no naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith I haue made bold to alter your proposition or maior a little as I perswade my selfe not without reason You make a kind of difference betwixt the true sense of Gods word and the sense intended by the holy Ghost These two in my poore opinion are all one for there is no sense of any peece of Scripture to be accoūted true but that vvhich deliuereth the holy Ghosts meaning in that place The reason is for that the vse of interpretatiō is nothing else but to make vs vnderstand what the Lord meant to teach vs or to say to vs by those words I deny not that a man may deliuer true and sound diuinitie though he misconceiue misinterprete a text of Scriptures but this is that I say that howsoeuer he teach true doctrine by his exposition yet he doth not giue vs the true sense of that word of God if he propound nor the sense which was there intended by the holy Ghost euerie truth of God is not the true sense of euery place of Scripture I will not except against your Syllogisme though you put somewhat more into the Assumption then you propounded in the maior yet let me put you in mind that both naturall wit and learning can shew the true sense of Gods word in very many places and also that by your confession this may be done Whence it will follow that in all likelihood of reason many points of faith are so deliuered in Scripture that there needeth no infallible authoritie of the Church to teach vs what is true in those points what false To answer more directly to the Assumption I see no sufficient reason why a man by wit and learning may not be able to vnderstand and that infallibly what is true according to the letter of the Scripture in matters necessary to saluation I think I may truly say that many a man attaineth to this knowledge without any infallible assistance of the holy Ghost whose principall office it is so to sanctifie direct and preserue the children of God that they neuer fall away by any such opinion as shal make them lose their interest they haue to the kingdome of heauen Your proofe if it be sufficient sheweth your exception especially in all points to haue bin altogether needlesse For if the Apostle in the place alledged speake of vnderstanding the true sense of the Scripture no one place can be vnderstood by any natural wit or learning Who hath knowne the sense of our Lord Is not this speech generall as well of one place as of another But it is euident that the Apostle speaketh not of vnderstanding any or all places of Scripture For the spirituall man he speaketh of attaineth not to that height of knowledge no not in your owne iudgement vnlesse perhaps no man be spirituall but your Pope And yet a man may well doubt whether he be able to vnderstand the meaning of the holy Ghost in euery place or no though it be granted he cannot erre iudicially But Saint Paul thinketh not in that place of interpreting scripture Of what then Surely of acknowledging or assenting to the truth of the Gospell concerning saluation by Iesus Christ The things that God hath prepared for them that loue him viz. the meanes of saluation and glory by Christ are such as eye hath not seen nor eare heard yea such as neuer entred into any mans heart For who was able to haue deuised by any experience and obseruation to which the eye and eare are especiall helpes or by any discourse of reason wherein the heart is exercised that the Sonne of God should take our nature and procure forgiuenesse of sinnes and inheritance of heauen for all them that would beleeue in him This was onely Gods will and counsell which no man was priuie to no man could instruct him in or perswade him to These things God only knew these he reuealed by his spirit to the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles who without such reuelation could neuer haue suspected any such matter Now the question is not in the Apostles course of writing whether a man without reuelation can vnderstand the meaning of the Scripture but whether he could of himselfe know that there must be such a means of saluation or acknowledge the doctrine thereof to be true without the teaching of the holy Ghost The naturall man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 receiueth not these things for true or if you will perceiueth not that there are such meanes of his saluation As for vnderstanding of Scripture since it is more then manifest that a meere natural man may find the true sense
intēded by the holy Ghost at the least in many places it cannot be the Apostles meaning that no man knoweth the sense of our Lord in the Scripture But the more you mistake the sense of the holy Ghost in Scripture the better you proue your opinion that no naturall wit or learning can bring a man to the vnderstanding thereof onely you must take heed of ouerweening your owne wit and learning and so of erring by drawing a generall conclusion against all men from your owne defect which also perhaps is not so much for want of wit or learning as for lacke of paines taking and because of a preiudicate conceit against the truth A. D. §. 4. Hence I inferre that those who for matters of faith relie wholy either vpon their owne priuate opinion or iudgement of the sense and meaning of Scripture or vpon the learning and iudgement of others who are but men not infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost nor by him vnfallibly preserued from errour as many or rather all Protestants do those I say cannot haue diuine and Christian faith but onely fallible opinion and humane faith As before I granted your conclusion that naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith so I now acknowledge the truth of your illation which you bring in thereupon that he which relieth wholly vpon his owne priuate opinion or any other mans iudgement can haue no true faith Yet must I again remember that to rely vpon such opinion or iudgement is to take that for truth which is taught barely vpon the credit of the teacher For otherwise a man may haue a true faith that is a certain and infallible assent to the truth though he beleeue vpon euident reason those points interpretations which are proued to him by men without any infallible authoritie of the Church But whereas you charge many or rather all Protestants to rely so vpon the iudgement of men I hope you do it without the authoritie of your Church that cannot erre for I am sure you do it without any shew of truth No Protestant of any discretion not onely not all beleeueth the doctrine of the Gospell in generall or any one particular interpretation as a matter of faith vpon any mans credit whatsoeuer This reuerence indeed we giue to our teachers that we rather trust their iudgement then our owne and dare not dissent from them but where we haue great likelihood of reason at least to the contrary Howsoeuer we ground no point of faith vpon any interpretation which is not plaine and euident to any man that will take paines to examine it according to true reason A. D. CHAP. IX That a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith A. W. A man may easily perceiue that you chuse to say any thing rather then nothing and therefore you make your selfe worke Chapter after Chapter I shall not need to repeate that which I haue noted before this Chapter giueth sufficient euidence of that I say What a strange kind of speech is this that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith No spirit neither priuate nor publick is ordinarily the rule of faith no not the most holy spirit of God but onely as he speaketh in the Scripture who alwayes teacheth one and the same truth publickly and priuately A. D. §. 1. The third conclusion is that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church A. W. This is the interpretation of the title of your Chapter No priuate spirit that is no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit c. I cannot tel whether I shold thinke you haue forgotten to speake English or purposely affect as strange doctrine so strange speech also To be singularly instructed with vs plaine Englishmen is to be taught in rare and excellent sort not to be apart or seuerally alone instructed which is your meaning I grant mens priuat opinions are called singular and the men themselues that haue such conceits are also so termed but he that professeth plainnesse to teach all kind of men should labour to speake so that all might vnderstand him But to the matter Whose opinion is it that any such man as you conceit or any man at all can be the rule of faith Sure not ours who as it hath often bene said giue this honour only to the word of God If any man hold that opinion vnlesse perhaps the senslesse Anabaptists with whom we haue nothing to do you are they who as it seemeth by the exception you adde grant that with limitation a man may be the rule of faith For you say he cannot be the rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church Do you not imply in this speech that so farre forth as he agreeth with the doctrine of the Catholick Church he may be the rule of faith But I obserue one rare thing in your course of disputing that you ordinarily propound your matter in such sort that you are faine presently after to make one exception or other Scripture alone say you cannot be the rule of faith is this all you meane No a limitation followeth Especially as it is translated by Protestants into English No naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith What by no meanes except they be infallibly assisted by the holy spirit of God In this Chapter we haue the like course held by you But leaue we this and be take our selues to consider your proofe A. D. §. 2. This I proue first because Saint Paul saith Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praeter id quod accepistis Anathemasit pronouncing generally that whosoeuer teacheth or preacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church should be held Anathematized or accursed A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith First I desire all men to obserue that this argument of yours doth not proue that a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith but onely so farre forth as he doth disagree from the doctrine of the Church otherwise for all this reason he may be Wherein you speake absurdly and falsly Absurdly in propounding such a question to refute as neither we whom you professe to refute nor any reasonable man would euer once imagne viz. that a priuate spirit teaching an vntruth might be the rule of faith For how can that be but an vntruth which is contrary to that the Apostle deliuered by his preaching
and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
iniuriously you deale with vs herein a blind man may see For we neither claime any such priuiledge of being free from errour in citing and vnderstanding Scripture nor desire to be any farther beleeued for translation or interpretation then we can approue them by euident reason And this you knew well enough and are ready with the rest of your complices to accuse vs of referring all to euery mans priuate spirit But malice is as wel without sight as without shame That of Saint Austin we acknowledge to be most true and find it verified by your Rhemish translation and the applicatiō of Scripture in your Canon law and Schoole-mens writings out of which it is easie to bring a cloud of witnesses to this purpose For the other place of Austin you quote two treatises his 18. tract vpon Iohn and his 222. epistle to Consentius In the former whereof there is no such word to be found nor any such epistle either in the Basil or the old Paris print But in your late edition of Austin at Paris both the epistle and the words are wherein Austin maketh the misunderstanding of the Scriptures the occasion of heresie Who denieth it This may serue vs to proue that the ignorance of the Scriptures is exceeding dangerous euen as Chrysostome saith the cause of all euils In another place the same Austin telleth vs that men are for nothing else hereticks but because not rightly vnderstanding the Scriptures they obstinately maintaine their owne opinions against the truth of them And Tertullian goeth somewhat further shewing that heresies durst not peepe vp without some occasion taken by the Scriptures But he addes that those very heresies may be conuinced by the Scriptures If we misinterprete the Scriptures why do not you great Clearkes that haue the spirit tied to your Church refute our false interpretations by the Scriptures Do we refuse this triall Is it not that we stil vrge to haue all things examined by the Scriptures or is there any thing you more feare then to be confined to the Scriptures What though the diuell and hereticks alledge them Did not our Sauiour himselfe say so too What plea can you make wherein some heretickes haue not gone before you Will you brag of the Church Hereticks also both thinke and say they are of the Church yea they are in all things so like true professors that in Antichrists time as an ancient author speaketh there is no meanes of triall left but the Scripture If you vrge tradition so do heretickes too running vp and downe right like you Papists from tradition to Scripture and from Scripture to tradition They pleade Councels as well as you The Arians obiect diuers against Austin and other writers As for the Fathers was not Austin prest by the Donatists with Agrippin and Cyprian Did not the heretick Dioscorus cry out in the Councel of Chalcedon I haue the testimonies of the holy Fathers Athanasius Gregorie Cyrill I vary not from them in any point I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the fathers doctrine I haue their iudgement extant in their bookes Neither may we rest vpon miracles To let passe what before I said of that point remember what Austin saith Pontius say the Manichees did a miracle Donat prayed and God answered him from heauen The Scripture onely is the true touchstone in these cases if it be hard Let him that hath an heart saith Austin reade those things that go before and those that follow and he shall find the sense A. D. § 7. Wherefore there is no reason whereby we may be assured that such men haue the spirit of God but we may find many reasons to conuince that they haue not this spirit And to omit for breuitic sake the seeking out of any other euen the singularitie or priuatnesse of their spirit is sufficient not onely to moue vs to suspect it but also to condemne it and to assure vs that it cannot be the spirit of truth as it is very well signified by Saint Austin who saith Veritas tua Domine nec mea est nec illius sed omnium quos ad eius communionem publicè vocas terribiliter admonens nos ne eam habere velimus priuatam ne priuemur ea Nam quisquis id quod tu ad fruendū omnibus proponis sibi propriè vendicat suum esse vult quod omniū est à communi propellitur ad sua id est à veritate ad mendaciū Thy truth O Lord is neither proper to me nor him but common to all whom thou doest publikly call to the common partaking of it warning vs terribly to take heed that we will not haue it priuate to our selfe least we be depriued of it For whosoeuer doth challenge that to himselfe priuatly which thou doest propose publickly to be enioyed of all and will haue that his owne which is common to all he is driuen from the common to his owne that is to say from the truth to a lie A. W. To refute this conceit of a priuate spirit which was not worth this ado you argue from the singularitie or priuatenesse of it as if it could not be true because it is not agreeable to the common opinion And surely he that shall be so arrogant and shamelesse as to denie all the points of Religion commonly held vpon a presumption that himselfe onely hath the spirit of God is fitter to be cut off by the Magistrates sword then confuted by the word of Scripture But it is very possible that in some points and places some one man without any reuelation by diligent searching and prayer may finde out that which no other man yet knoweth at least for interpretation of Scripture as it falleth out euery day amongst both Protestants and Papists Therefore your Cardinall Caietan doubteth not to say that God hath not tied the exposition of the Scriptures to the senses of the Fathers and therefore asketh no more then reason when he willeth the Reader not to be offended or mislike it if sometimes himselfe hit vpon a new sense agreeable to the text though it go against the streame of the fathers For which though Canus reproue him without cause Andradius iustly defendeth him And why should he not since as Domingo a Soto witnesseth one mans authoritie and learning draweth numbers after him to his opinion By reason of a saying of Saint Austins saith Soto all the fathers after his time and all the Diuines with one consent haue worthily affirmed that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actual sinne for all Chrysostome auncienter then he thought the contrary Yet was Austins iudgement in this case but priuate and for truth inferiour to Chrysostomes If publicknesse or generall consent should cary the matter how chance Paphnutius withstood all the rest of the famous Councel of Nice and preuailed We ought saith Picus Earle of Mirandula to
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
to learne but is vnprofitable to his own soule as it is written The Scribes and Pharisies sit in Moses chaire do that they say but do not that they do For they say do not to which he addeth that to the Philippians as in the other place But yet Austin was so farre from tying either the Iewes because of our Sauiours speech or any men vpon any pretence to beleeue whatsoeuer should be taught them though by men lawfully authorised that he forbids all to heare when men preach their owne deuises By sitting on Moses chaire saith he they teach the Law of God therefore God teacheth by them But if they will teach their owne sayings obserue that Austin thinks it is possible they should heare them not do not An euill man saith the same author out of the euill treasure of his heart bringeth forth euill things But when he preacheth the word of God when he ministreth the Sacraments he preacheth not nor ministreth not of his owne if he be a wicked man but is to be counted among them of whom it is said do that they say but do not that they do For as we heard before out of Theophylact he that exhorteth to euill life speaketh neither from Moses chaire nor from the Law Therefore as it followeth in him they that teach the Law of God are to be heard though they do it not So doth Chrysostome vnderstand and apply this text What then will some men say shall we obey our Prelates when they are euill How meane you euill If it be in a point of faith slie and auoid him not onely if he be a man but if an Angel come downe from heauen But if you meane that he is euill in his behauiour be not curious Neither speake I this of my selfe but of the Scripture For Christ saith the Scribes and Pharisies sit on Moses Chaire And when first he had recited many euil things of them then he faith They sit vpon Moses chaire All things that they say vnto you do but do not as they do They are to be reuerenced saith he though they be of a wicked life but heed you not their liuing but their preaching For concerning their manners no man can be hurt by thē How so Because that they do is manifest to all and though they should come to the height of iniquitie they could not teach other men that their euill But when a point of faith is in question neither doth euerie bodie perceiue manifestly that which is spoken neither will a lewde fellow be afraid to teach contrarie to truth For whereas as it is faid Iudge not that ye be not iudged that is spoken of life not of faith This is Chrysostomes iudgement and that where he expoundeth one of the principall places which you bring to support your vnreasonable authoritie The Scribes and Pharises saith another sit on Moses chaire that is there are many Priests and few priests many in name few in deed Take heed therefore how you sit vpon that seate for the seate maketh not the priest but the priest the seate the place sanctifieth not the man but the man the place Your owne writers are of the same opiniō cōcerning this place Two things saith Iansenius are here signified first that obedience is due to thē which teach and command by authoritie not in respect of their life but of their authority which they haue and because of God whose Embassadors they are Secondly that we must not obey them if they commaund or teach any thing wickedly For if they are to be obeied because they sit in Moses chaire thē are they not to be obeied when they teach or commaund any thing against that chaire The Lord saith absolutely All and whatsoeuer that he might shew that they must be perfectly obeied but yet with such an obediēce as layeth this for a ground that we must obey God rather thē man as the Apostle Paul saith Children obey your parēts in all things Christ saith Arias Montanus taught his Disciples to obserue and doe whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharisies commaunded by the prescript of the Law that is out of Moses chaire Christ did not meane saith Ferus that they should obserue all the decrees of the Pharisies but so farre forth as they agreed with the Law As farre as they teach those things which Moses taught in the chaire they are to be beard otherwise to be taken heed of as saith Stella The Lord saith one of your famous Iesuits by the chaire of Moses doth not vnderstand the doctrine of the Pharisies but the doctrine of Moses Law For it is all one as if he had said All that the Law and Moses say to you Christ saith Cassander commaundeth vs to heare the Pharisies yet so that we must take heede of the leauen of the Pharisies that is corruptions of their life and doctrine But you will say Austin telleth vs that it should nothing haue hurt the Church and innocent Christians if some traitor had crept into that sea What else haue we shewed all this while but that the wickednesse of euill Prelates must not make their doctrine as long as it is true lesse regarded Austin in that Epistle answers a certaine Donatists letter who bragged of succession from Donatus the author of that sect against whose brag he setteth that Catalogue of the Bishops of Rome amongst whom there was neuer a Donatist but if there had bene yet should not that haue preiudiced the Church or the innocent Christians as if the doctrine they held were not true because some lewd or hereticall reacher had sometime bene Bishop of that Citie We know it was vsuall with the Donatists to crie out against the true Catholicke Bishops for their conuersation which they also slaundered therefore had Austin good reason to speake as he did that no man might be caried away from the truth of then doctrine by the supposed wickednes of their liues I haue bene somewhat the longer in this point because as I signified it is the onely proofe of this controuersie Now I leaue the consideration of it to all reasonable men that they bethinke themselues whether it be not meere simplicitie or rather wilfull ignorance to be drawne away from the truth of the Gospell vpon a pretence of hearing the Church when there is not a syllable nor a letter in the scripture to tie a man to such blind obedience whereupon nothing can ensue but destruction A. D. §. 8. The threats we may gather first out of Saint Luke when our Sauiour saith Qui vos spernit me spernit He that despiseth you despiseth me Signifying that looke what sinne it were not to heare but to despise our Sauiour Christ himselfe that we should account it the same to despise and not to giue eare and credit to the Catholicke Church Insinuating thereby that the like punishment is to he expected for the said
maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
is vnpossible because God doth not reueale this point to men neither are they able to iudge who are truly iustified and sanctified and who are not Secondly the question is whether the catholicke Church spokē off in the Creed can be discerned by the same bodily sight or no we say it cannot because it containeth none but the elect you say it can because it consisteth of all them that make profession of christian Religion vnder the absolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome The onely true meanes to make a full end of this controuersie is to shew what the Church is of which the Creed the Scriptures speak so many and so glorious matters This point you haue not once touched but either ignorantly or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vs and alledge that for the definition of the Church which if it were true as it is euidently false yet is but one priuiledge of the Church and expresseth not the nature of it But let vs leaue these matters and consider what it is that according to your former discourse you are to prooue Now that is say I that there alwaies hath bene since our Sauiours comming is and shall be to the end of the world a companie of men famous and visible in the world so that all men at all times may discerne that they are the true Church of Iesus Christ. For that I may in part vse your owne words as they follow in this chapter if at any time it could not be knowen then the men that liued in that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequently whereby they might come to saluation Giue me leaue to apply that to all men which you speake of all times If there euer were are or shall be any men to whose sight the Church was not so visible that they might discerne and know it then those men wanted necessary means whereby they might attaine to saluation which if it were so say you how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture God would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth Do you not perceiue that your reason necessarily requireth to haue it prooued that the Church is visible as at all times so to all men For if it faile in either of these respects your consequence will follow that some men haue wanted necessarie meanes of saluation and so God would not haue all men saued Therefore you propound the question verie insufficiently when you say We inquire whether the Church at any time be inuisible so that no man can see those men c. For though at all times some men may see and know it yet vnlesse all men at all times may you haue prooued nothing to purpose in this whole Treatise A. D. §. 2. In which matter my Assertion is that the Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore cited do speake must alwaies be visible This I prooue first by that plaine Prophesie of Isaias in the 61. Chapter Which Chapter to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church we may gather out of Saint Luke where our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe The words of the Prophesie are these Foedus perpetuum feriam eis scietur in gentibus semen eorum Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quoniam isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them and their seede shall be knowen among Nations all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seede which our Lord hath blessed How could he more plainely haue foretolde the visiblenesse of the Church The places of Scripture afore cited speake not all alike some of them concerne the Apostles onely and that not onely as they are a companie but as they are seuerall teachers authorised by our Sauiour Christ with so high and absolute a commission some belong to all true christians as well seuerally considered one by one as taken iointly all together Some appertaine to all Ministers some reach to all professors of the truth of the gospell How then can you truly say that the true Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe speake must alwaies be visible The Apostles haue not bene visible these 1500 yeares The elect that is the Church built vpon a rocke neuer was nor euer shall be visible in this world All Ministers were not nor can be visible to all men All professors neither are the true Church of Christ nor can by any meanes possible be seene of all mē as one church but with the eies of the mind Particulars are subiect to sense but vniuersals are discerned onely by vnderstanding Your assertion then is false but we will take it as it is set downe by you supposing that those places of Scripture speake of the Church in generall Yet we may not forget that the second point must needs be added concerning all men and so your assertion must be this The true Church of Christ must alwaies be visible to all men liuing To make way to your argument out of this prophesie you go about to prooue that the Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ his Church your proofe lieth thus Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church This consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent First because the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himselfe and yet not of his Church also Secondly because some part of it may be of our Sauiour and yet not those words you alledge For who is he that knoweth not that one and the same Chapter often times conteineth diuers prophesies belonging to diuers matters and parties But though your proofe be naught your opinion is true For those words that whole chapter concerne our Sauiour and his Church Let vs see how you reason If our Sauiour promise to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church and that their seede shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed then the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing But our Sauiour hath promised to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church that their seed shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Therefore the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing I denie the consequence of your Maior Though our Sauiuiour made such a promise and indeed hath and doth daily performe it yet it doth not follow thereupon that the Church must alwaies be visible to all men Shall the promise
on whom al men gaze Thinke not therefore saith our Sauiour that ye shal lie hid in a corner Ye shal be the light of the world and therefore see that you liue vnblameably and become not an offence to other men Who can gather from hence the consequence of your proposition If the Church be not visible to all men at all times it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world Your second proofe concerning the rule and meanes is no lesse insufficient If the Church at any time could not be knowne of men you must needs meane of euery particular man if you will speake to the purpose it cannot at all times be a meanes by which the truth may be knowne to all sorts of men This is the consequence I denied before either brought by you for a new proofe or repeated idly within 3. or 4. lines after it was first deliuered Here you returne to your minor and to proue the latter part of it propound the second time your maine reason answered at large in the fifth Chapter It would be tedious and losse of time and labour to repeate all that was then said I wil therfore content my selfe to draw it into forme as it lieth and to denie the false propositions without any more adoe vnlesse I meete with somewhat by the way which was not in your former discourse Thus you reason If the Church be not ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation then some men at some time haue wanted one necessary meanes to that purpose But no man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes to that purpose Therefore the Church is ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or means by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation I denie your Assumption which you endeuour to proue in this sort If any man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes then it is not vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth But it is vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth Therefore no man at any time hath wanted any necessarie meanes Againe I denie your minor referring the Reader for the true sense of that Scripture to my answer in the fift Chapter The proofe of your consequence about which you labor like a man that claps plaister vpon plaister on a sound place is altogether needlesse and not worth the examining saue onely that in the last clause thereof you confidently harp vpon the former string which soundeth nothing but the necessitie of a visible Church to saluation But the Apostle where he sheweth what is of necessitie to faith neither mentioneth nor any way implieth a visible Church but only requireth a sending of some to preach and that may be from God immediatly not by succession in and by men Did not our Sauiour Christs preaching bring many to faith in him and so to saluation Did not Peter conuert 3000. at one Sermon Did not the Apostle Paul plant many Churches Was any of these a visible Church or did the people to whom they preached either seeke to them as to a visible Church or beleeue that they deliuered because they were sent by a visible Church It is true that no man ordinarily can beleeue vnlesse he heare no man can heare vnlesse there be one to preach to him no man can preach vnlesse he be sent But what is all this to the necessitie of a visible Church Looke through the whole history of the new Testament and see how many examples you can finde of any that were but so much as occasioned to beleeue by the meanes of a visible Church The same of our Sauiours miracles drew many to the hearing of him not the knowledge of any visible Church Cornelius a deuout man and one that feared God liuing neare to the places where the Gospell was preached was not moued by the visible Church but by a vision from heauen to send for Peter that he might heare and beleeue I might shew the like in diuers other examples that the Apostles were faine seuerally to go from place to place to preach the Gospell and not to stay till the fame of them or a visible Church should moue people to enquire after them I denie not that occasion may be giuen to men to hearken after the Gospell by reason of some visible Church whereof they may by diuers meanes haue vnderstanding but that it is vnpossible for men to come to the knowledge of true faith and hereby to saluation without a visible Church or that a visible Church is alwayes the first step to saluation though sometimes it may be the first occasion of hearing and beleeuing A. D. §. 4. Thirdly if the vniuersall Church of Christ should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue For if it did outwardly professe how should it not by this profession be made visible and knowne But if the vniuersall Church should for such a time faile to professe the faith hell gates contrarie to Christs promise did mightily preuaile against it For were it not a mightie preuailing that the whole Church should faile in a thing so necessarie to saluation as we know outward profession of faith to be necessarie both by that of our Sauiour Qui negauerit me coram hominibus ego negabo illum coram Patre meo He that shall denie me before men I wil denie him before my Father And Qui me erubuerit sermones meos hunc Filius hominis erubescet He that shal be ashamed of me and of my words him the Sonne of man wil be ashamed of And by that of S. Paule Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore fit confessio ad salutem With heart we beleeue to iustice with mouth we confesse to saluation Which place learned men interprete to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation and they say further that this sometimes is so oft as either the glorie of God or the profite of our neighbour doth of necessitie require it the which cases of necessitie do happen verie often and great maruell it were or rather vnpossible that they should neuer haue happened for so long a time as the Protestants would haue their Church to haue beene inuisible A. W. If the vniuersall Church of Christ say you should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue But it may not for any space cease to professe that faith Therefore it may not for any space of time be inuisible To omit that fancie that there is one such vniuersall Church of
the iudgement of the learned who teach that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation Now for answer to your proofes I say as before that the two former concerne especially the denying either of religion in generall or some speciall truth in question when the Lord as it were calleth vs out to professe and auouch it as he did the Apostles in that place by sending them abroad to preach the Gospell If you saith our Sauiour in effect or any other minister shall forbeare to discharge your duties by preaching my truth and maintaining it if you be called in question for it I will neuer acknowledge you for mine in the kingdome of heauen The Apostles calling necessarily required preaching of the word and for them to haue failed in that dutie for feare or shame or otherwise had bene to denie their Lord and master Yet were they not so tied to this dutie that they must needs continue their publicke preaching in those places where persecution was raised against them but they might flee from one Citie to another and yet not be counted to denie the Lord Iesus As for the Churches that were gathered by the Apostles preaching there is neither charge nor reason to be shewed why they should bewray themselues to their persecutors by open practise of religion in the eies of the world Indeed the worship of God is not to be neglected though we cannot performe it without manifest daunger of our liues but there is no necessitie to worship God publickly where the truth is persecuted Therefore did the anciēt Christiās in such places assemble as secretly as they could neither leauing the exercises of religion for feare nor by an incōsiderate zeal hazarding their own liues To denie Christ is not to conceale himselfe frō persecutors but being found by them to renounce his profession and so is the place ordinarily applied by Cyprian the Clergie of Rome and Tertullian men enough fauouring martyrdome Yea Tertullian in that verie booke wherein he labours to prooue that it is not lawfull for a man to flie in time of persecution yet aduiseth men to hold their assemblies for the exercises of religion in the night time if they cannot haue them conueniently in the day Theophylact expoundeth this confession and deniall of acknowledging or denying Christ to be God Brugensis somewhat more particularly He that denieth me to be his Lord and Sauiour that he beleeueth in me that he sticketh fast to me and my doctrine So doth Iansenius vnderstandit though he stretch it also to the denying of Christ by wicked conuersation The denying of Christs name saith Lyra is alwaies a mortall sinne Not to confesse or be silent concerning it is sometimes a mortall sinne As if a man be silent when he is asked of it If he professe it being not asked it is a worke of supererogation Doth any of these or any man else conclude the visibilitie of the Church from these or the like places of Scripture No man is to denie our Sauiour nor to be ashamed of his truth What then Therefore must they that beleeue in Christ openly make profession thereof at all times without any wisedome of the Serpent for their owne preseruation or else can they not be saued A cruell and foolish conceit This proofe is to as little purpose as the former Confession by mouth is required to saluation therefore outward profession of faith is at all times necessarie Who sees not the weaknesse of this cōsequence Doth not he confesse with mouth that ioynes himselfe to some knowen Church of Christ and communicates with them ordinarily in the outward worship of God though all the world know not there are any such beleeuers professors yea though the people among whom they liue be not priuie to their meetings and profession There may be occasion for a man or a Church to manifest themselues vnto the world and they that in such a time shall faile can looke for no mercie at the hands of God without true and earnest repentance But this prooues not that therefore the Churches must make such publicke profession that they may at all times be knowen to all men To perswade vs of the former wherein there is no doubt you tell vs that Learned men autors in the aire as one of your side saith in the like case interprete this place to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie Who euer denied it But doth any learned man say that therefore the Church must alwaies make such profession That is the point in question and of that you are as dumbe as a fish yea do you not perceiue that your learned men refute that conceit Doth not he that expoundeth that place of necessitie at sometimes denie that it requireth such necessitie at all times It is necessarie saith Frier Soto for a righteous man that he may obtaine euerlasting life to confesse his faith with his mouth wheresoeuer the time necessarily required by this precept offers it selfe Catharin your Bishop speaketh yet more plaine Such confession namely that a man confesse with his mouth that which he beleeueth in his heart as he expounded himselfe a little before is not alwaies required but as Thomas saith according to the time and place And indeed so Thomas saith adding withall that Affirmatiue commaundements binde at all times but require not performance at all times Your interlinear and ordinarie Glosses and Lombard restraine it to the time of persecution or at least when the truth is called in question Caietan makes this when more generall but signifieth that this confession is not at all times necessarie As for the times when it is to be held for necessarie your learned men do somewhat more particularly deliuer the point then you report it Confession of Gods truth quoth Sotus and therein he followth Thomas is necessarie vpon paine of losing saluation either when it is required by a persecutor of the faith which confession the martyrs made with their bloud or when it is necessarie for those that belong to our charge by danger of heresie likely to ensue which dutie of confession properly concerneth Prelates c. These occasions haue many times bene offered and accordingly many professors of that truth which wee now maintaine haue with the shedding of their bloud giuen testimonie of the Gospell against the errours and tyrannie of your Antichristian Prelates Those holy martyrs who from time to time haue bene butchered by your Synagogue of Sathan were of the same Church with vs howsoeuer they saw not the truth of God in many points so clearely as it hath pleased him to reueale it to vs by the ministerie of his seruants in these latter dayes If they vsed their best discretion and endeuours to hide themselues as much as might be from your furie they did no more then the light of nature and
a small companie here and there whom he kept as the 7000 in Elias time Lastly it was requisite that the prophecies in Paul and Iohn concerning Antichrist and his tyrannie and vniuersall Apostacie should be fulfilled which could not haue come to the iust height of extremitie if any Churches at least in those parts where Antichrist preuailed had continued visible These are a few of those reasons which in the blind iudgement of man not able to sound the depth of Gods secrets might be an occasion of making the Churches of Christ cease to be famous and of keeping the true professors shut vp in the wildernesse till the time appointed by God for Antichrists decay and ruine approached Yet did not the Lord all this time leaue himselfe and his truth without witnesse but from time to time stirred vp the spirits of his children to make the world search the Scriptures and discerne if they would that your Church of Rome so famous visible was corrupted with many errors and become the verie seat of Antichrist Thus I haue answered your fift reason in the conclusion whereof you adde a testimonie of Scripture to confirme the necessitie of the Churches perpetuall visiblenesse to all men If say you that prophecie of Esay Thy gates shall be continually open must at all times be true then the Church is visible at all times to all men But that Prophecie must be true at all times Therefore the Church is visible at all times to all men Though you ordinarily leaue out that clause of the Churches visiblenesse to all men yet I make bold to supply it because I am desirous to perswade my selfe that you doe so rather for shortnesse sake then in a craftie purpose to deceiue the Reader I denie the consequence of your Maior first because that prophecy may be alwaies true and yet the Church not alwaies visible For all prophecies in Scripture are alwaies true as being from God and yet doth it not follow hereupon that therefore whatsoeuer is prophecied must alwaies be true It was prophecied by God himselfe that the children of Israell should be seruants in Aegypt May I then say as you do If this prophecie must alwaies be true they must alwaies be seruants in Aegypt I trow not Prophecies are alwaies true but true onely according to the meaning of them that such or such things must be at the time and in the manner signified by them If you say your meaning is no more but that if that prophecie be true then the Church is alwaies visible to all men I answer that At all times was put in without cause and might as you see breed a question in your proposition Secondly taking your Maior in that sense I still denie the consequence of it For the gates of the Church may be open at all times yet all men neither see thē alwaies open nor know that there are any such gates or Church Might not the gates of Mexico or some Citie in the East Indies China or America be alwaies open and yet none in these westerne parts euer heare of any such Citie You will say perhaps that the Prophet by the gates being open signifieth the visibilitie of the Church It is not enough to say so vnlesse you prooue it too But that I may yeeld somewhat of my right in this case and not put you to your proofes in so hard a matter I answer with Austin speaking of such prophecies and promises that this place belongeth properly to the Church of the elect into which without any restraint many of the Gentiles do enter continually from day to day by their actuall beleeuing truly in Iesus Christ Which answer may the better appeare to be true if we consider that this promise is made to the Iewes whose Church-gates must alwaies stand opē to entertain the Gentiles coming vnto it But this can no way be true of the outward Church of the Iewes which then florished in Ierusalem was vtterly destroyed some fortie yeares after our Sauiours ascension Therefore it must belong to that remnant of Israel which is according to the election of grace Do not replie to this answer that the gates of this Church were alwaies open euen before our Sauiours coming For this Church in respect of the Gentiles had not a gate then but a little wicket which stood not alwaies open but was opened now and then vpon occasion when it pleased God to bring some one or other of the heathen extraordinarily to saluation by the acknowledging of the Messiah to come These gates are now haue bene this 1500 yeares and vpward shut vp against the Iewes as the Apostle lamentably coplaines not as some imagine because the visible Church was translated frō the Iewes to the Gentils which Paul would neuer so ambitiously haue affected as in respect of that To be contented to become Anathema that his countrimen might enioy the glorious smoke of such an outward priuiledge I speake in comparison of election to euerlasting life but for that the Lord would giue ouer his people the Iewes and not choose ordinarily out of them heires of his heauenly kingdome as before he had done We see and reioyce at the sight that the Lord of his great mercie calleth out some few from amongst that desperate multitude of the Iewes as before he did out of the Gentiles but the gates are now set open for the Gentiles and a small posterne for the Iewes But what if I should grant you that this prophecie may also be expounded of the outward profession of Religion must the Church then needs be visible at all times to all men The maine reason of the gates continuall standing open is signified by the Prophet to be this That the strength of the nations and their kings may come into the Church But this was long ago fulfilled by the iudgement of your owne writers The strength of the nations that is the most warlike nations saith Vatablus which saith he was fulfilled when the Romanes were added to the Church The opening of the gates Lyra referreth to Constantines time and therefore in his iudgement they were shut more then 300. yeares after Christ And so farre is he from once thinking on the visibilitie of the Church prophecied of in this place that he brings three other interpretations and not mentions your conceit The gates shall be open because saith Lyra Constantine commaunded that the Church gates should be opened which before were shut and that new Churches should be built This also may be expounded saith he of spirituall opening because the Church is alwaies open to receiue them that repent And because since Constantines time men began to flocke to the Church of Christ without feare The strength of the nations was brought because saith the same Author by the example of Constantine many Potentates and kings came to the faith of Christ The gates of the Church said
you make In particular I denie your Minor The Church we speake of is not compared to any such things The Church saith Austin which groweth in all natiōs is preserued in the lords wheat and shall be so preserued to the end till it haue taken possession of all yea euen the most barbarous nations The floare in Austins iudgement is not the Church but the place rather in which the Church is kept for that as he truly saith is the wheat And in the same Epistle he speaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables That is the Church saith Austin which swimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fishes from which in heart and behauiour it alwaies is separated Could any thing be spoken more direct The floare and the net are in a generall sense the Church but the true Church indeed is in the one the wheat not the chaffe in the other the good fishes that swimme among the naughtie ones I may also farther except against these Parables because they are otherwise applied then they are intended by our Sauiour who neuer meant by any one of them to teach that the Church consisteth not of the elect onely Who saith Austin can without great impudencie go about to prooue anything for his purpose by interpretation of any Allegorie vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies whereby those matters that are obscure in it be cleared This is your last charge to as small purpose as either of the former If there may be an incestuous person say you in the Church then it consisteth not onely of those that be good But there may be an incestuous person in the Church Therefore the Church consisteth not onely of those that be good It is apparent that by good you vnderstand those that cannot be charged with any grosse outward sinne as Incest or such like In which sense I say your conclusion is nothing to the purpose For we do not affirme that no man is of the Church which by any occasion falleth into some grieuous sinne so should we exclude Peter when he denied his master Dauid when he committed adulterie and murther Noe when he was drunke Abraham when he lied and many other who for all these sinnes held fast their faith in the Messiah and continued true members of Iesus Christ according to Gods election howsoeuer those sinnes of theirs deserued separation from Christ and damnation The Church may consist of some who for the present are in regard of some great sin not good and yet consist of the elect only as the former examples shew Farther I denie the consequence of your Maior It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church that is to be an outward professor and to be a true beleeuer And that the Church is the companie of the elect in the iudgement of the ancient writers these testimonies shew Ambrose maketh the Church the people whom God hath vouchsafed to adopt Whereas the Church saith Austin is so described in the Canticles that it is called a fenced garden my sister spouse a fountaine sealed vp a well of liuing water a paradise with fruite I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous The holy Church quoth Gregory is a garden because when it begets many to the faith it sends forth faire flowers like a good ground And it is well called a fenced garden because it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect If the spouse of Christ which is the Church be a fenced garden saith Cyprian being shut vp it cannot lie open to the prophane and strangers But what should I recite seuerall testimonies Looke Origen Bernard and other writers vpon the Canticles and you shall easily see that the spouse of Christ is the companie of the elect A. D. §. 8. Lastly the ancient Fathers did teach that the Church is visible Origen saith Ecclesia plena est fulgore ab oriente vsque ad occidentem The Church is full of brightnesse from the East to the West Ecclesia saith S. Cyprian Domini luce persusa radios suos per orbem spargit The Church being bright with the light of our Lord doth spread her beames throughout the world Facilius est saith S. Chrysostome solem extingui quà m Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easie that the Sunne should be extinguished then that the Church should be obscured that is to say darkened and quite without light Saint Augustine also alluding to or rather expounding those words of our Sauiour Non potest ciuitas abscondi supra montem posita saith Ecclesia supra montem constituta abscondi non potest The Church being built vpon a mountaine cannot be hid And againe in another place he saith Quid amplius dicturus sum quà m caecos qui tam magnum montem non vident qui contra lucernam in candelabro positam oculos claudunt What shall I say more but that they are blind who do not see so great a mountaine who shut their eyes at the candle set vpon the candlesticke A. W. These and such like speeches of the Fathers were vttered by them for the most part concerning the Church as it flourished in their dayes and not of the perpetuall estate therof from time to time Neither speake they properly of the Church which is indeed the spouse of our Sauiour the bridegroome but of the multitude of them who hold the truth of doctrine against all cauils and oppositions of hereticks amongst whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preserued Your reason then is little worth The Fathers say the Church is visible Therefore it is alwayes visible to all men The consequēce of your Enthymem is naught as wel because it might be visible in those times and not always as also for that it is not all one to say it is visible and it is visible to all men at all times Now to the particulars First I answer to Origens testimonie that he speakes not of the Churches visibilitie but affirmes that the truth which is the brightnesse or light he mentions is in the Churches euery where East and West That this is his meaning it is plaine by the beginning of that homily and the whole course of it to the very place you alledge Origen expounds there that place of the Gospell As the lightning cometh out of the East This exposition begins thus We must know saith Origen that the brightnesse of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture and cannot be defended by another but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture the Law the Prophets the Gospels and the Apostles writings And this truth arising from the East that is the beginnings of Christ shineth to the very time of his passion in which was his setting or fall A little after We
Church of God But it is absurd both in reason and religion to preferre the iudgement of any priuate man be he neuer so wittie and learned or neuer so strongly perswaded in his owne minde that he is taught by the Spirit before the iudgement and definitiue sentence of the Church of God the which is a companie of men many of which both are and alwayes haue bene vertuous wise and learned and which is chiefe is such a companie as according to the absolute and infallible promises of our Sauiour hath vndoubtedly the holy spirit among them guiding them and teaching them all truth and not permitting them to erre as before hath bin proued A. W. There is the same fault in this fift argument which was in the former that it is brought to proue a proposition which we denie not If before we giue absolute credit to the Church we must iudge whether euery particular point it holdeth be true or no then we may make our selues iudges ouer the true Church But we may not make our selues iudges ouer the true Church Therefore we must not iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no before we giue absolute credit to the Church This conclusion supposeth that which can neuer be proued that we are first or last to giue absolute credit to the Church whereof in this Chapter there is no question The point you vndertake to disproue is that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is a good marke of a true Church This therfore you should haue concluded though indeed it make nothing against our opinion who require not for a marke of the true Church truth of doctrine in euery point but in all points fundamentall Your proposition is deceitfully propounded as if we granted a companie to be the true Church and yet would take vpon vs to receiue and reiect what we list whereas we hold that we cannot acknowledge any true Church but we must withall yeeld that it maintaineth all substantiall points of Religion from which we may not vary Secondly for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church is to take authoritie vpon him to censure reproue and condemne the Church wheras all that we desire is that it may be free for vs to discerne that the doctrine held by this or that Church is agreeable to the Scriptures before we acknowledge it to be a true Church It is meere absurd and vnreasonable to prefer any priuate mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of the church of God But it is agreeable both to reason and Religion that euery priuate man whose saluation lieth vpon his true or false beleeuing should consider whether that which he is enioyned by men to beleeue be warrantable by the word of God or no. The Scribes and Pharises were the leaders of the people in the matters of Religion yet were they blinde guides and the blind people by depending vpon their iudgement were caried headlong into the same pit of destruction with them Were not the men of Beroea commended by the holy Ghost for searching the Scriptures that they might see whether the doctrine deliuered by Paul were agreeable thereto or no And yet shall it be a fault in vs to enquire of the same Scripture concerning the doctrine of your Apostaticall synagogue I say farther it is against reason and Religion to prefer any one mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of many wise vertuous and learned men such as the Church hath vsually some amongst the members thereof But it is most reasonable and religious to prefer the truth of God manifested by one simple man before the contrary determination of all that euer haue bin or shal be of the Church though neuer so wise vertuous and learned This is that which we teach concerning this matter First that no man is bound to take any thing for a matter of faith but that which is proued to him by the Scriptures the rule of faith Secondly that no man is to condemne any thing held by the Church vnlesse he haue euident proofe on his side out of the Scriptures Thirdly that euery man in matters not determinable by Scripture none of which are necessarie to saluation should yeeld to the iudgement of the Church whereof he is a member and euery Church to the iudgement of the Christian Churches other where vnlesse there be some good reason to the contrary It is very possible for wise vertuous and learned men to erre for your priuiledge of not erring hath bin found to be counterfait who oftentimes follow the opinion of some one man whose learning and pietie they cannot chuse but admire Domingo à Soto affoords vs an example of this matter where hauing alledged a sentence out of Austin he addeth these words By reason of this saying of Austin quoth Soto all the Fathers afterward and the whole multitude of Diuines haue by good right deliuered it as a truth that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actuall sinne though Chrysostome auncienter then he were of another opinion Let it be then vnlawfull as it is for a priuate man to prefer his owne opinion before the iudgement of a whole Church and in this sense I graunt your minor yet is it not vnlawfull for him to examine what any or all Churches teach or to dissent from it if he haue the Scripture for his warrant A. D. §. 7. But you may perhaps say that in Scripture we are willed not to beleeue euery priuate spirit but to trie spirits whether they be of God or no and that therefore we must examine and trie the spirit of the Church by looking into euery particular point of doctrine which it teacheth I answer that in that place of Scripture it is not meant that it belongeth to euery particular man to trie all spirits but in generall the Scripture giueth the Church warning not to accept euery one that boasteth himselfe to haue the Spirit and willeth that they should trie those spirits not that euery simple or priuate man should take vpon him to trie them but that those of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine to wit the Doctors and Pastors which Almightie God hath put in his Church of purpose Vt non circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be caried away with euery wind of doctrine and Vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes that we may not be little ones wauering with euerie blast of those that boast themselues to be singularly taught by the spirit So that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no and then also this triall belongeth to the Pastors of the true church But when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither neede nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it but submitting obediently the iudgement of our owne sense
reason not only against Scripture were ordained properly as the ministery of the word the seruice of Angels for their sakes that are to be saued according to the election of God Secondly and as it were accidentally for the hardening of them that will not beleeue to leaue them without excuse To make your matter the more likely you tell vs of our Sauiours loue to mankind which in your diuinity is without exception or respect of persons How then can it sute with the purpose of God his Father who hath chosen some to glory refused other meerly of his owne iust will without respect of difference in the parties so chosen refused As for I that loue of mankind wherupon some men conclude that either all or the greatest part of men are loued by God to eternal life it is not to be vnderstood by comparison of men to men but partly of men to the Angels that fell in which respect the Apostle amplifies the mercy of God to vs He tooke not the Angels but he tooke the seed of Abraham partly of men to all other creatures none of which besides man is vouchsafed the honour to be ioyned in vnity of person with the Sonne of God and so to be made heire of euerlasting glory It is needlesse to repeat what I answered before to this place of Isay onely I will say thus much of your exposition that though all that see the Church may know it yet it doth not follow that therefore all men may see it which you make the end of planting a visible Church that euerie man may learne how to be saued We denie not that the markes of the Church are such as that any man who hath the meanes and will vse them with conscience and diligence may come by the grace of God to the acknowledging of it and by the ministerie of it to saluation Such is the truth of doctrine wherein euerie man may be instructed who will submit his reason to the euidence of truth conteined in the holy Scriptures and not wilfully resist or carelesly neglect the worke of the spirit in the ministerie of the word The bands and chaines Austin speaketh of are not said to draw a man out of the world vnto the Church but to hold him in it that is in already And surely he were vnreasonably absurd that being borne in the profession of Christianitie or by any other occasion brought to ioyne himselfe vnto this or that Church would not cōtinue his beleefe vpon those groūds that Austin there mentions as long as there could be no sufficiēt reason brought to the contrarie yea though he could not discerne the truth of many points which he held as he had bene taught But Austin in the same place professeth that the markes he names and all other whatsoeuer whereby he is held in the Catholicke Church are nothing worth in comparison of truth manifestly prooued out of the Scripture But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake againe hereafter where you propound some of Austins words more at large A. D. §. 2. Of these markes diuers authors haue written at large I for breuitie sake haue chosen out onely these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke because I hope these will be sufficient and because I finde these especially set forth in Scriptures commended by Councels and generally admitted of all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants as now I am to declare First for the generall admittance of these properties of the true Church I need no other proofe but that both Catholicks and Protestants allow of the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed wherein we professe to beleeue the true Church the which Church is there described with those onely foure properties which before I named as though by those onely euery man might sufficiently know that Church which in euerie point they are bound to beleeue Now if besides this proofe out of the generally receiued Counsels some precise man would haue me prooue these properties to agree to the true Church out of the Scripture it selfe this also I may easily doe A. W. So many and diuers are the markes of the Church propounded by your Popish writers that you had good cause to giue some reason why you cull these foure out of all the rest First you alledge breuitie wherof if you had beene so desirous you would not so often haue repeated the same matters You adde the sufficiencie of these their being mentioned in the Scripture commended by Councels and generally admitted by all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants All which taking them in your sense are generally false as shall appeare in the particular handling of them But indeed the true cause is though you will not be knowne of it that Bellarmine out of whom you haue patched vp your whole discourse though he bring fifteene yet confesseth that they may all after a sort be reduced to these foure There are two faults in this proofe whereby you labour to perswade vs that these properties are generally admitted both by Protestants and Papists First though both admit them yet in diuers senses we according to the true meaning of those Councels you according to those phantasies you haue deuised for the establishing of your Apostaticall Synagogue Secondly we admit them not all as markes of the or a visible Church but as hidden properties of the Catholicke Church the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ which are not to be discerned by the eye of the bodie but by the light of faith as all other articles in the same Creed are What though there be no more properties but those foure there set downe will it follow thence that therefore they are named as though by those onely euerie man might sufficiently know the Church Is that the vse of those points which are deliuered concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Or rather are they not set before vs as principall matters to be beleeued of them So are also these properties of the Church If any man be so simple as to take your former proofe for good whereas it faileth in the chiefe point you would prooue by it as I haue shewed he is fitter to be pittied then instructed But is it a note of precisenesse to desire proofe for matters of faith out of the scripture Doubtlesse it was then no lesse precisenesse to appoint the scripture for a rule of our faith and as great for our Sauiour Christ and the Apostles to confirme their doctrine out of the scripture For this course of theirs makes vs the bolder to require the like of you whose authoritie we more doubt of whereas if they had stood vpon their priuiledge and neuer troubled themselues with proouing that they deliuered or leauing their doctrine in writing we should easily haue perswaded our selues to rest vpon mens authoritie and not to looke for any proofe by scripture But giue me leaue a little to consider of this
course of yours The question is whether the true Church be with you or with vs. You tell vs we shall know that by seeing whether you or we haue the markes of the true Church we accept of this triall How shall we informe our selues what these markes are Tush say you for that matter you must be ruled by the Councels Why but the Councels as you would make vs beleeue were wholly for you and consisted of Popish Bishops what reason haue we then to stand to their iudgment in a controuersie betwixt you vs You will answer that we say they were not Popish We say so indeed and haue prooued it in diuers points as occasion hath bene offered But we adde further that these Councels might erre you denie it How will you perswade vs the contrarie When all is done we must come to triall by the Scriptures or else take your word for it And is it for all this precisenesse to require proofe out of the Scriptures of those marks you would prooue your Church by I haue shewed before that there is no means to know certainly there is any Church of Christ or any Christ but by the Scriptures Are not the Scriptures then the fittest meanes to teach vs by what marks this Church may be knowne The Councels tell vs what they are Who told them the holy Ghost Let it be so But how did he tell them by some reuelation vtterly beside the Scriptures or by truth in the Scriptures If the former we aske how we may be so perswaded The church tels you so Yet again the church How knows the church that they had such reuelatiō What help now but about again to the scriptures Thinke not much then if in this questiō cōcerning the marks of the church we desire to be taught by the Scriptures what those markes are especially since as you professe you may do it so easily but I am afraid you will do it with more ease then truth A. D. §. 3. The true Church is signified to be one by those words of the Canticles Vna est columba mea if we will beleeue the exposition of Saint Cyprian and S. Austin Also we may gather the same out of those words of our Sauiour in which he calleth his Church vnum ouile one sheepfold Also by those places of S. Paul where he termeth the Church vnum corpus one bodie Moreouer Christ our Sauiour praying for his Church did specially intreate and without doubt obtained vt omnes vnum sint that all the members thereof should be one thing to wit that at the least they should all professe one and the same faith all partake of one and the same baptisme and other sacraments all liue vnder one and the same Lord in due subordination and subiection to that vniforme and orderly gouernment of lawful pastors ordained and appointed in the Church by him The true Church of Christ therefore is one Contrary the conuenticles of hereticks are destitute of this marke of vnitie according as Tertullian affirmeth saying Denique penitus inspectae haereses omnes in multis deprehenduntur cum auctoribus suis dissentientes Finally all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders And the reason of this disagreement among heretickes the same Tertullian assigneth very well in the same place saying Variant inter se haeretici dum vnusquisque pro suo arbitrio modulatur quod accepit quemadmodum ea pro arbitrio composuit ille qui tradidit Heretickes do differ in points of doctrine among themselues while as euery one taketh vpon him to fashion the faith which he receiued according to his owne liking or fancie like as he that first deliuered it vnto them did inuent it according to his owne will and pleasure A. W. We are now come to the very point for proofe of your maior that they onely who are one holy Catholick Apostolick Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong To make this proofe good you dispute in this manner If One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke be good marks to know the true Church by then they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But those foure properties One Holy Catholick Apostolick are good markes by which the true Church may be knowne Therefore they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong The consequence of your maior is but weake For these foure properties may be good markes to know the true church by that wheresouer we see them we may be sure there is a true church and yet there may also be some true church where they are not I dispute not whether the true Church may be without these but denie that because these where they are are good markes therefore there is no true Church where these are wanting This proposition though your proofe be lame without it you wholy omit and so propound vs a reason which we need not yeeld to though you were able to proue the minor neuer so sufficiently Your minor as before I answered is true if we rightly vnderstand the meaning of those seuerall properties But the proofe you bring is scarce warrantable All properties of the Church belonging onely thereto and apparent to be seene where they are are good markes to know the Church by But these foure properties are such Therefore these foure are good markes to know the Church by There is a third thing omitted by you necessarily required to make any propertie a good marke viz. that it be such as alwayes agrees to the Church For otherwise it can serue as I answered to your former proposition but only for the halfe dutie of a marke because at some times I may see the Church and not know it for all this marke If I find these properties I may assure my selfe that I haue found the true Church because these neuer are but in the true Church yet if the true Church may at any time be without these as it may for ought contained in your maior then missing my marke I shal be vnable to discerne of the true Church This minor for the first part of it is true in such sense as I granted the former these properties rightly vnderstood belong onely to the true Church If the latter part also be true that they are apparent to be seene doubtlesse truth of doctrine which maketh the Church one must needs be a certaine marke of the true Church though you denie it that prerogatiue Let vs now see how you proue the parts of your minor with this prouiso that though you do proue them yet you are little the nearer because diuers former propositions vpon which this depends remaine still vnproued by you It is a propertie belonging
spirit of Christ. For Christ saith he is as the soule giuing life by the holy Ghost to his whole mysticall bodie But the holy Ghost quickens onely the elect not the reprobate too In the latter of the two places the same Cardinall expounds that being one in respect of charitie and Catharin a learned Popish Bishop vnderstands this bodie to be the holy Church consisting of them that are predestinate and called and iustified and glorified holy and faithfull Of the last place I spake sufficiently before Agreement in the truth is the marke we looke at This you adde to proue that to professe one and the same faith that is to be one is proper to the true church Your proofe is that Tertulliā saith that all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders Tertullian might truly say so of al heresies then known yet there may haue bin some since his time perhaps that haue kept alwayes the same errors without any change worth the speaking of But as I noted before since all heresies for a time hold their first errors continuance in the same profession can be no good marke of the true church vnles you can set downe a certaine number of yeares during which they must continue in one and the same faith or else be held for hereticks because of their changing Now in conclusion of this first marke I must obserue a few points for the Readers instruction First I desire it may be noted that whereas vnitie is made a principal marke by your writers they vnderstand as well vnitie of loue as of faith you require but the one of them and so giue vs but halfe a marke Secondly let it be obserued that this marke is either no marke at all or all one with ours so that whereas you trouble vs with more then this you make it much harder then we do to find out the true Church In the third place it would be considered what you meane by one and the same faith I presse you with your owne argument Continuing in one and the same faith in regard of some points only is no good marke because heretickes continue in some points of truth Continuing in all points can be no good mark for it is not only hard but vnpossible for a simple vnlearned man to be assured that any church hath alwayes continued in profession of one and the same faith in euery point yea this is infinitely harder then to discerne of all truth because the one is to be learned out of the Scriptures the other cannot be known but by searching the records of the church from time to time Of the one there is certaine knowledge to be had because the Scriptures are the word of God of the other the best assurance we can haue is but the testimonie of men that might erre by ignorance or partialitie Whatsoeuer doubts or difficulties you can imagine concerning the false translation or misunderstanding of the Scriptures the same wil accompanie all the writings of men touching the doctrine of the Church in all ages Then let any reasonable man iudge whether you or we shew them a better marke to know the true Church by A. D. §. 4. The true Church is also proued to be holy by that of S. Paul Templum Dei sanctum est quod estis vos The temple of God is holy which temple you are By which place notwithstanding S. Paul did not meane to signifie that euery one of this companie was holy For a little after in the same Epistle he saith to the same companie Omnino auditur inter vos fornicatio talis fornicatio qualis nec inter gentes There is plainly heard fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathen He doth not therefore I say meane that euery one of the Church is holy but that the whole companie is to be termed holy because the profession thereof doth of it selfe wholy tend to holinesse the doctrine being such as withdraweth from all vice and instructeth and moueth men to vertue the Sacraments also do not onely signifie but in the vertue which they haue from Christ his passion they also worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie Wherefore although euery one that is in the Church be not holy yet no doubt alwayes some are the which their holinesse it pleaseth Almightie God to testifie and make knowne sometime by miracle and ordinarily he vseth to make it apparent enough by the light of their vertuous actions which at all times in many members of the true Church do so shine before men that by it men are moued to glorifie God and sometimes to imitate in their owne life that which in others they admire And whatsoeuer member of the Church faileth from this holinesse of life it is euident that the fault is onely in himself who liueth not according to the prescript of his professiō nor vseth in due sort those means which it hath of the holy Sacraments which as I said before are effectuall instruments of sanctification Contrariwise no sect of hereticks is truly holy neither was there euer any person that did inuent or obstinatly adhere vnto any sect of heresie which had in him true sanctitie And no maruel because the very profession and doctrine it selfe of euery heresie is opposite to the very rootes of true sanctitie the which rootes be true Christian faith and humilitie For how can he be truly holy and iust who being possessed with the spirit of heresie must needs be depriued of true faith without which the iust man cannot liue according to that saying of S. Paul Iustus ex fide viuit Or how can he be holy that doth not only not humble himselfe like a little one submitting himselfe to euery humane creature for Gods sake but doth proudly oppose himselfe against the vniuersall Church it selfe whom God hath willed and commanded vs to heare no otherwise then himselfe For wanting this humilitie and consequently the grace of God which is denied to the proud and giuen to the humble there is no doubt but that howsoeuer such a man seemeth in his outward behauiour he can haue no true sanctitie within him the which true sanctitie failing inwardly it is hard for him to beare himselfe so but that sometime or other by one occasion or other he shall euen outwardly manifest this his inward want as in these our daies heretickes commonly do in such apparent manner that it is no hard matter to discerne that they be not as some of them would haue the Church defined a companie of Saints A. W. Hauing shewed before that this discourse proceedeth not orderly as it should to the proofe of that which is propounded by you and denied by vs I will not stand to lay out the fault in euery particular but content my selfe with hauing done it once for all It
the latter part of that you should proue is quite omittted that it is no hard matter for any simple man to discerne which Church is Apostolicke which is not If you make not this cleare you proue nothing and yet euery man may see that it is a matter of no small studie nor short time to examine what Churches were first founded by the Apostles and haue had an orderly succession without interruption from time to time yea when a man hath made the best search he can what hath he to rest himselfe vpon but the report of men who might deceiue and be deceiued And yet this ado euery poore soule must haue before he can tell to what Church he may ioyne himselfe for his spirituall instruction in matters concerning euerlasting life You will aske what course we take for a mans direction in this case Surely the very same which the Scriptures testify we ought to follow We propound out of the Scriptures the meanes of saluation we giue our people libertie to examine that we deliuer by the touchstone of truth the same Scriptures of God we desire not to haue any credit giuen to that we teach as a matter of faith but so far forth as we can proue it manifestly by the word of God Thus we begin with men thus we continue leauing the successe of our poore ministery to the blessing of Gods Spirit in the hearts of them that vouchsafe vs the hearing But for better direction in the triall of our doctrine wee giue this rule that true religion first respects the glory of God and then the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of them that professe it Whether course yours or ours be more reasonable and more agreeable to Scripture I leaue it to the consideration of al men whom it doth concerne and returne to the examining of your proofe whereof there are these two parts that the true Church is Apostolicke that no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke Of the former thus you dispute If euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles then euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles But euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles Therefore euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles I would make no question of any part of your Syllogisme if by foundation from the Apostles you vnderstood nothing but Apostolicall doctrine which is indeed the maine foundation of all true Churches but you afterward expound your meaning and acknowledge no foundation from the Apostles but by the ministery of such as can deriue their succession from the Apostles without any interruption In this sense therefore I denie your minor because the former part of it is false For euery true Church hath not nor need haue to make it a true Church such foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had Yea though we doubt not but that the Ephesiās were conuerted to the faith by some of the Apostles and perhaps by the Apostle Paul yet we doe not beleeue that the Apostle in the place alledged by you speakes of any such foundation but of the truth of doctrine taught by the Apostles This may appeare because the Apostle makes the Prophets their foundation as wel as the Apostles But certaine it is that neither the Prophets nor any by succession from them laid the foundation of the Gospell amongst the Ephesians He meanes saith Theodoret the Prophets of the old Testament not of the new lest you should cauill about the name Prophets Besides the foundation of the Apostles must be conceiued as our Sauiour Christ is the corner stone to the Ephesians not because he preached to them but for that they rested vpon him as a corner stone the doctrine of the Apostles being the foundation And if we will tie this to the persons that deliuer the doctrine then to be the foundation is so proper to the Apostles as that it cannot agree to any other man whatsoeuer how Apostolicke soeuer he may be imagined to be For this was their speciall honor aboue all other Christians Thus doe the best interpreters expound the place Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is saith Ambrose vpon the new and old Testament For that which the Apostles preached the Prophets foretold As for the Prophets of the new Testament They saith Ambrose are for the ordering of the Church founded and not for the founding of it Vpon Christ saith your Glosse or vpon the doctrine of the Apostles So Lyra Vpon the doctrine of the new and old Testament With whom Lombard agreeth though he expound it also of Christ So doth Thomas Vpon their doctrine So doth Caietan vnderstand it that a man may wonder at your ignorance or boldnesse in going against the streame of your owne Doctors without any shew of reason for it Wherefore if your minor intend no more but that euery true Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles in respect of their doctrine no exception could be taken against it For other foundation no man can lay but Iesus Christ according to the preaching and prophesying of the Apostles and Prophets This foundation had the Church of Ephesus and in this must euery true Church agree with it But you apply this to I know not what dependance of succession which hath no kinde of warrant from that place of the Apostle To supply your want of proofe from the Scriptures that euery true Church must haue her foundation from some Apostle or some man who can fetch his pedegree without interruption from the Apostles you seeke to draw in Tertullian for a witnesse of your error Let vs heare his depositiō The Apostles saith Tertullian founded Churches in euery citie Here to helpe your selfe you adde this glosse To wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of other What reason is there that he that is a partie in the suite should haue the expoūding of the witnesses meaning Tertullian saith the Apostles founded Churches you tell vs he meanes they did so by themselues or by others How shall we know that you are so priuy to his meaning If you ground your exposition vpon those words in euery citie whereas the Apostles came not in diuers cities that were then in the world I pray remember that there were at that time many cities into which we are not sure that the Gospell had before Tertullians time bin receiued The learned man may speake in generall and yet with speciall relation to those places which were then knowne to be Churches founded by the Apostles as Ierusalem Antioch Rome Alexandria Ephesus c. He addes farther that From these Churches founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward had borrowed and in his time dayly
the Gospell he saw his kingdome againe in hazard he betooke himselfe to his former shifts and spread abroad the poyson of heresie in diuers countries that he might giue you his vassals occasion to slaunder the doctrine of the Gospell as if from it these heresies had risen This is one of his delusions wherby he deceiues and misleades many to damnation though the children of God perceiue his subtilty and rest vpon the manifest truth of the Scripture for all Sathans practises to discredit it by this and such other inconueniences with which he endeauours to haue the preaching of the Gospell accompanied for the disgrace thereof This course also he tooke in the first beginning of the Gospell as it is manifest by the multitude and grossenesse of those heresies which brake out within the first 400 yeares and were neuer since equalled for number or haynousnesse in twice so long a time that the likenesse of Sathans dealing may be an argument of the like truth he now laboreth to ouerthrow or discredit A. D. §. 3. My chiefe question and comparison therefore shall be betwixt the Romane Church that is to say that companie which communicateth agreeth in profession of faith with the Church of Rome and liueth vnder the obedience as touching spirituall matters of the Bishop of Rome and other Bishops and Pastours vnder him and the Protestants that is to say that companie which from Luther his time hitherward haue opposed themselues against the Romane Church either all or any one sect of them my question I say or comparison shal be to which of those two the foure forenamed marks agree and consequently which of them is the true Church A. W. Here you propound the matter and argument of this chapter which you call a comparison as if the question were whether of the Churches be beautified with those foure properties consequently whether of them is the true Church But to speak properly there is no comparison intended therein For our question is not whether your Synagogue or our congregations come nearer the state of true Churches which seemeth to be implied in making a comparison betwixt them but whether of them are indeed true Churches If I should compare your Church of Rome with the Synagogues of the Iewes the profession of the Mahometans or the companies of Anabaptists or other Hereticks I might finde that your doctrine came nearer to the truth in many points and so were more likely to shew me the true Church or that these foure properties agreed better to you then to them But this comparison would not settle me in the knowledge of a true Church The point is as before I shewed the proofe of your Minor that the Church of Rome is she to whom those properties belong For the further confirmation whereof you vndertake to prooue that our congregations haue no interest to these titles and this you do not by way of comparison but by an argument of contraries But let vs take it as it is and fall to the examination of your proofes yet still with this prouiso that the Church of Rome cannot be concluded to be the true Church nor our congregations false Churches though you had and we wanted all these markes as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 4. § SECT I. That the Romane Church onely is one First I finde that the Protestants Church is not perfectly One or vniforme in dogmaticall points of faith but variable according to the varietie of times and persons now holding one thing then an other and that the learned men thereof are so much at iarre among themselues in matters of faith that it is hard to finde three in all points of one opinion and which is chiefely to be pondered as principally appertaining to the marke of Vnitie they haue no meanes to end their controuersies so to returne to Vnitie and to continue therein For while as they admit no rule of faith but only Scripture which scriptures diuers men expoūd diuersly according to the diuers humours and affections opinions and phantasies of euerie one neuer one admitting any one head or chiefe ruler infallibly guided by the holy Ghost in his doctrine to whose censure in matters of faith euerie one should of necessitie submit themselues Vt capite constituto schismatis tollatur occasio that as Saint Ierome speaketh a head or chiefe ruler being ordained occasion of schisme or diuision may be taken away Whilest they do thus as they all doe thus all proclaiming to be ruled by onely Scripture and yet almost in euerie one in one point or other expounding Scripture diuersly and one contrarie to an other according to the diuers seeming of euerie ones sense and neuer one admitting any one superiour infallibly guided by the holy Ghost to whose definitiue sentence he and the rest will be bound to submit their doctrine and expositions whilest I say they doe thus it is vnpossible that they should In fidei occurrere vnitatem meet as Saint Hierome counselleth in the vnitie of faith The which vnitie in profession of faith notwithstanding is one principall thing pertaining to the vnitie of the Church and vnitie of the Church is one chiefe marke by which we must discerne which is the true Church Contrariwise the Romane Church is alwaies one and vniforme in faith neuer varying or holding any dogmaticall point contrarie to that which in former times from the beginning it did hold The learned men thereof though sometimes differing in opinion in matters not defined by the Church yet inmatters of faith all conspire in one And no marueile because they haue a most conuenient meanes to keepe vnitie in profession of faith sith they do acknowledge one chiefe Pastor appointed ouer them to wit the successour of Saint Peter to whose definitiue censure in matters concerning religion they wholly submit themselues knowing that to Saint Peter and his successours Christ our Sauiour promised the keyes of the kingdome of Heauen and that he would vpon him and his successours as vpon a sure rocke build his Church Knowing also that the same our Sauiour did specially pray for Saint Peter and euerie one his lawfull successour that this faith should not faile at least so farre as to teach the Church a false faith to the intent that he might be alwaies able to confirme his brethren if at any time they should faile in the doctrine of faith Knowing lastly that to Saint Peter and his successours which word I adde not without sufficient authoritie and reason Christ our Lord gaue most ample power ouer his vniuersall Church saying Pasce oues meas feed my sheepe that is to say Rule or gouerne as chiefe Pastour vnder me my sheepe that is all those that pertaine to the sheepfold which is the Church giuing him and his successours charge to feed them with the food of true doctrine of faith and consequently binding these his sheepe to receiue obediently this food of true doctrine of faith at
their hands and consequently tying himselfe so to assist him and his successours with the guiding of the holy Ghost that they should alwaies propose vnto the flock of Christ which is his vniuersal Church the food of true faith and that they should neuer teach ex Cathedra any thing contrarie to true faith sith if he should not thus assist but should permit them to teach the Church errors in faith then the Church which he hath bound to heare this Pastor in all points might contrarie to his purpose erre nay should by him be bound to erre which without blasphemie cannot be said All Catholicke learnedmen therefore knowing this do acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of this chiefe Pastour either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth and that therefore they may safely yea they must necessarily submit all their iudgements and opinions either in interpreting scripture or otherwise in matters concerning religion to the censure of this Apostolicke seat The which while they do as they must alwaies do if they will be accounted Catholicke men and will not cast out themselues or be cast out of the companie of Catholickes how is it possible that one should dissent from another in matters of faith or at least obstinately as hereticks do erre in anie point of Faith So that this difference may be assigned betwixt any sect of heretickes and the Romane Church that heretickes are a companie not vnited among themselues by any linke which is able to containe and continue them in vnitie of faith whereas the Romane Church is Plebs sacerdoti adunata grex Pastori suo adhaerens as S. Cyprian saith a Church should be a people ioyned to their Priest and a flocke cleauing to their Pastor whom whilst it heareth as it is alwaie bound to do it is vnpossible but that it should retaine the vnitie of faith like as on the contrary side according to the saying of Saint Cyprian Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt aut nata schismata quà m inde quòd sacerdoti Dei non obtemperatur nec vnus in Ecclesia ad tempus Sacerdos nec vnus iudex vice Christi cogitatur Not from any other roote haue heresies and schismes sprung vp but from this that men do not obey the Priest of God neither do they consider how that in the Church there is one Priest and one Iudge for the time in steed of Christ. A. W. In propounding these matters against vs of your proofe I will speake afterward there are a few things worthy obseruation that your dealing may be manifest to all men First you talke of the Protestants Church as if we like you fancied to our selues some one church beside which there should be none in the whole world whereas we acknowledge seuerall Churches in diuers countries to be entire in themselues without dependance of any one vpon any other Yet do we not denie that there is a certaine communion betwixt and among all true Churches which consists in their agreement in doctrine about all matters of the foundation and the mutuall helpes of prayer and of other Christians duties to be performed by one congregation to and for another In this respect there is one Church of Protestants and whatsoeuer company holdeth not the foundation is no true Church nor to be counted a member of the Protestants Church Secondly I would know why you require that our Church should be perfectly one since you mentioned no such matter in setting downe expounding the first propertie of the Church If you answer that to be one and to be perfectly one is all one I pray you remember that this terme perfectly should either haue bin put in before or bin left out now Otherwise seeing you neuer tell vs that it is all one whether a Church be one or perfectly one why shold we not make our aduantage of your words and presume that our Church is held by you to be one though it want somwhat of I know not what perfectiō imagined by you which yet you forget when you come to shew that your church is one Thirdly how doth this strange speech vniforme in dogmaticall points of faith agree with that plainnesse which you professe for instructing of the simple But in good earnest what meane you by dogmaticall points It had bin very fit you should haue vsed other termes or atleast haue expounded these for the vnderstāding of the ignorant But this dark speech makes more for you because it may perhaps affoord you some starting hole if you be hard driuen Yet a man may gesse at your meaning because when you come to proue that the Church of Rome is one you seeme to interprete dogmaticall points to be matters of faith defined by the Church If we take it in this sense I maruel how you can charge our Churches with variablenesse in this respect What one point was euer defined by the generall consent of our Churches which hath bin since altered by like consent If you can shew none as I may well presume you cannot till you do then are our Churches in dogmatical points of faith as perfectly one as yours so much bragged of Now to your argument which is thus to be concluded That Church which is variable according to the varietie of times and persons c. the learned men whereof are at iarre among themselues in matters of faith c. and haue no means to end their controuersies is not one But such is the Protestants Church Therefore the Protestants Church is not one I denie your maior varietie of opinions differences of learned men without meanes to end their controuersies do not proue any Church not to be one vnlesse the matters about which they differ be of the foundation so that the ignorance of them or error in them be in it selfe damnable To make my answer plaine I wil handle as shortly as I can the seuerall points of your proposition The Apostles disciples and other beleeuers in our Sauiours time were doubtlesse the true Church and so alwayes continued in generall though some of them haply fell away being the true Church they were also one by your owne confession yet did they not always hold the same dogmaticall points of faith but varied in matters of very great moment For a time yea all the time of our Sauiours Christs life till his ascension they beleeued that his kingdome was not onely spiritual but also of this world They were ignorant of that high point concerning his resurrection without which there is no iustification Yea after the descending of the holy Ghost vpon them they held it vnlawfull to impart the Gospell to the Gentiles Put case now that some of those who followed our Sauiour had continued in these opinions and that you had bin to giue sentence whether they their companie had bin the true church or the Apostles and people that claue to them
surely you must needs according to this first part of your reason haue condemned the innocent and iustified the wicked For the Apostles Church was not one because it had varied from some opinions formerly held by it which the other companie still retained As for your odious manner of propounding the point according to the varietie of times and persons it is but a froth of words and might in regard of the change haue bin charged in like sort vpon the Apostles As for the dissent of learned men one from another neither was the Church euer so happie as to be without it and you acknowledge it among your owne writers though not in matters of faith the contrary whereof I will shew when I come to that place But if by matters of faith you meant such points as are fundamental I could somewhat the rather hearken to you And yet what shall it hinder a Church from being one that the learned men of it make question of such maine matters as long as the Church is not tainted with their priuate errors Did the Churches of Corinth or Galatia cease to be true Churches because some among them and as it should seeme no small number in the former denied the resurrection of the flesh in the other ioyned the workes of the law with faith to iustification yet were both these fundamētall errors the continuance wherin without repentance must needs bring certaine damnation But your matters of faith are all points though neuer so friuolous or false that your Church hath determined by her lawlesse tyrannie whereas many matters of farre greater importance not so decreed are left free for euery man to erre in or to be ignorant of without any danger of damnation or breach of vnitie This last point as you say is the principall matter appertaining to vnitie that there be meanes in the Church to end controuersies But why or how should this be so principall when as the Church may agree in the same points of doctrine though priuate men dissent from each other Indeed to the procuring of an outward peace it is very requisite that particular men be not suffered to preach or write one against another But neither is this peace so much worth as that for it the Church should be corrupted with errors and the chiefe power for the remedying of this inconuenience is in the hands of the chiefe Magistrate whose dutie it is to prouide that his subiects may leade a quiet and a peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Therefore neither doth this disagreement among the learned make the Church cease to be one though there be no meanes to end it which yet are not wanting in the true Churches Your minor also is false in euery part of it Variablenesse in points of faith according to the variety of times and persons is when in regard of these two the doctrine of the Church is altered Now who is so shamelesse as to charge vs with hauing altered and dayly altering our iudgements in respect of either of these What necessitie or occasion can varietie of time bring for the change of doctrine But for persons what sect profession church or companie in the world euer was or could be freer from depending on any mans person then we are who absolutely disclaime all mens authority ouer our faith Are not you they that charge vs with leauing the interpretation of Scripture and consequently the beliefe of euerie man to his owne priuate humour And yet you are not ashamed to accuse vs for variablenesse in our doctrine according to the varietie of persons If malice were not blind it were vnpossible you should slaunder vs with so manifest contrarieties You are the men whose faith dependeth vpon the persons of your Popes whom you follow blindfold whither soeuer any of them leadeth you We attribute to our teachers no impossibilitie of erring though we haue a reuerend opinion of their knowledge and faithfulnesse in regard whereof we do not lightly reiect any doctrine or exposition deliuered by them vnlesse it be apparently false Yet doe we not tie our selues to take whatsoeuer they teach as a matter of faith though we are readie to yeeld to any thing which is plainly prooued to vs out of the word of God how contrary soeuer it be to our former opinions For we know that men are subiect to error and that God doth not miraculously reueale all truth at once to any man but as it seemes good to his gracious wisedom peece by peece enlighteneth the vnderstanding of his seruants with the knowledge of his will and word according to their sinceritie in depending on him faith in calling vpon him diligence in searching the Scriptures the only sufficient meanes of instruction The second part of your slander is that our learned men so iarre in matters of faith that it is hard to find three in all points of one opinion Remember what you call matters of faith points of doctrine defined by the Church and forbeare blushing if you can when you reade this your accusation against vs. What other refutation shal I need to vse then the bare naming of the harmonie of our confessions wherein the most partial Reader of your side may discerne your shamelesse hyperbole that I may giue it a cleanlier terme then it deserueth To requite your kindnesse I challenge you to name me if you can any one of your schoole-men that hath not refuted some of his owne fellowes in some points or bene refuted by them I confesse there are many of them that I haue not read but I am so well acquainted with their courses and contradicting of one another that I may venture without aduenture to make this challenge Last of all your minor affirmes that our learned men haue no meanes to end their controuersies If you speake of the euent that our meanes are not sufficient de facto to make them that striue to agree in one opinion or to make all men to be of one mind I graunt that you say to be true but I adde withall that we may haue when we will as good meanes to this purpose as your Church hath For it is no more but to appoint some man to whose iudgement we will stand in all matters of controuersie What hereticall Church may not haue the same meanes of vnitie if it please But if you denie that de iure wee haue meanes sufficient for the ending of all questions I say your minor is vtterly false because we haue the Scriptures appointed and blessed to that end by God himselfe Now as the ministerie of the word is most sufficient for the begetting of faith and sauing of men though it haue not this excellent effect in all so the Scriptures are of absolute sufficiencie to cut off all controuersies howsoeuer men will not alwayes be ruled by them Your minor as we haue seene containes a grieuous accusation of vs in three points of no small importance To
We are now come to the principall point of your Minor wherein it stands you vpon to play the man and to make good those foure properties on the behalfe of your Church of Rome I must needs say it would grieue a man to take so much paines to so little purpose because if you prooue all that now you vndertake all that is as good as nothing till your Maior and your former syllogismes be better confirmed But yet if you quit your selfe well in this your Church shall be more beholding to you then it was euer yet to any of your fellowes in this question To begin withall you propound the question somwhat fauorably that the Romane Church holds not any dogmaticall points contrary to that which in former times frō the beginning it did hold It were much indeed your Church should teach contrarie doctrines to those it hath heretofore taught I think you can hardly name me any heresy so grosse as to fall frō one contrary to an other Your schoolmen haue set vp a mint wherin they coine vs euery day new distinctions to colour matters in such sort that your new opinions shall neuer appeare to be cōtrary to your old doctrine Hauing thus pitcht the state of the question it seemeth you thought there needed no proofe therof once it is apparent you offer not directly to bring any in this whole discourse but rather endeuour to shew vs the reason of this their agreement because forsooth they acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth Of which in due place But to take your matter as it lies That Church say you which holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold is alwaies one But the Church of Rome holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold Therefore the Church of Rome is alwaies one The question is not which Church is alwaies one in regard of not varying from that which first it held but which is alwaies one according to the meaning of the Nicene Creed that is which Church continueth in the truth of the Gospell For otherwise an hereticall Church might be acknowledged to be one and so a true Church because it remaineth obstinate in that heresie which at first it embraced Therefore your Maior is not true simply but onely vpon this supposition that your Church at the first held the truth But because we gladly acknowledge that the Church of Rome was at the first sound in faith I will leaue your Proposition and come to your Assumption Your Minor is excepted against by vs as you cannot choose but knowe in verie many points and some of them concerning the foundation of Christian Religion For triall whereof we appeale to the Epistle to the Romanes about matters of Faith Grace Iustification Free will Predestination and other that necessarilie depend vpon these Here are you as dumbe as a fish and like a man that had neither eares nor eies passe by this exception without taking any knowledge of it Is this a direct way according to your promise in your title to settle mens minds in all doubts questions and controuersies concerning matters of faith You might as well without all this ado haue told them in one word that the Church of Rome is the true Church and cannot erre For in effect what do you else when after many circumstances the question is brought to this issue whether the Church of Rome hold the same doctrine which in the Apostles time she professed You tell vs she doth without any proofe of that you say or answer to our manifold exceptions I will not enter into particulars as well because I see my answer growes greater then I intended or like of as also for that the seuerall controuersies betwixt you and vs are so many seuerall exceptions against this Assumption For verie pure shame you are driuen to confesse that there are differences of opinion among the learned of your side But to helpe the matter withall you qualifie it with sometimes Sometimes say you Either your reading must be verie little or your boldnesse exceeding great that you mince the matter in this sort with sometimes Answer my former challenge if you can concerning the warres among your schoolemen or doe but look into Cardinall Bellarmines controuersies and then tell me whether these differences be but sometimes or no. What learned writer almost is there of any fame on your part whom Bellarmine doth not dissent from in one point or other I might giue many instances but there is no man that reads him ignorant of that I say and you haue found a shift for this matter by interpreting dogmaticall points of Faith to be matters defined by the Church Wherein we are first to consider how absurdly you limit matters of faith Secondly to shew that euē in these matters so limited there is not alwaies agreement amongst your writers The vse and office of faith as it is onely an assent is to giue vndoubted credit to the whole truth of God by acknowledging it both to be from God and to be true For proofe of this if any man desire it I referre him to the third and forth Chapters of this treatise where you speake of the infalliblenesse and entirenesse of faith But though this be the dutie of faith it hath pleased God to deale graciously with men touching the meanes of their saluation and not to exact vpon absolute necessitie an acknowledging or knowledge of euery particular point of his truth Some things are such as I shewed before as that without them there is no possibilitie of saluation but that whosoeuer is ignorant of them either by neglecting the meanes of knowledge or by hauing no possibility to attaine vnto it he is vtterly shut out for ought we know from the kingdome of heauen Other points there are which euerie man must labour to know and beleeue because they are to that end reuealed by God but yet the simple ignorance of them so it be without contempt or carelesnesse doth not depriue a man of saluation by Christ The former of these two kindes are more properly matters of faith being absolutely necessarie to saluation You speake of matters of faith as though not the points in thēselues but the determination of the Church should make a necessitie of them to saluation So that the not beleeuing of the least matter of ceremonie enioyned by the Church shall be more damnable then the ignorance of the greatest point of Diuinitie being not so determined But I would faine know of you how I shall vnderstand what is to be accounted determined by the Church You confesse afterward that it is questionable whether the chiefe Pastor that is the Pope alone or he with a generall Councel be the Church which cannot erre Doubtlesse if it be
make outward profession of beleeuing the Gospell and obeying the Pope though he haue not Christian vertue in him no not so much as that faith he maketh shew of For if this serue to giue vs the right of being true members the Church may well be quite without inward holinesse as a matter not appertaining to the essence or nature of it The last part of your Minor is false the Protestants Churches haue had many thousand holy men euen all that euer held the truth of the Gospell according to the Scriptures and your Church neuer had nor shall haue any one truly sanctified that was wholly a member thereof after your account that is which agreed or agreeth with you in all points of Antichristianisme But I will follow you in your courses and of this say more afterward First you prooue the latter part and dispute against our Church in this sort That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holie by miracle or anie other certaine waie from God hath had no members of it holy But the Protestants Church hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or any other certain way from God Therefore the Protestants Church hath had no members of it holy I denie your Maior because it will follow vpon granting it that no man is truly to be counted holy but he that is declared to be so by miracle or some other certaine way from God For your whole discourse sheweth that this is your meaning where you tell vs that No man can be knowne to be holy but by Gods testimonie of his holinesse by miracle or some other certaine way Of miracles by and by In the meane while I would faine know what these other certaine waies are which God vseth to giue vs assurance of this or that mans holinesse will you tell vs a tale of I know not what reuelations out of your Legends and bookes of examples which are full of such fained apparitions Put case those lewde lies were true tales and that the miracles deuised by some of your complices were worthie of credit surely the number of them that haue bene truely holy hath bene verie small if no more haue bene holy then can pleade such miracles or reuelatiōs for proofe of their holinesse As for those that haue testimony of their holinesse from God in the Scriptures both they are verie few in comparison for so many thousand yeares and that meanes of shewing who are holy ceassed aboue one thousand foure hundred yeares since Now concerning Miracles why should we in these daies gape after them like the vnbeleeuing Iewes for the confirmation of any mans holinesse since we haue no warrant nor example of Scripture to apply them to any such purpose Bring me one example if you can out of the whole Scripture of any miracle wrought to prooue any man to be holy The vse of miracles is the confirmation of doctrine or rather the auowing of mens calling from God that their doctrine may be receiued If I do not the works of my Father saith our Sauiour beleeue me not but if I do then though ye beleeue not me yet beleeue the works that ye may know and beleeue that the Father is in me and I in him These things are written that ye might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ the sonne of God To that end did our Sauiour furnish his Apostles with power to worke miracles As ye go preach saying the kingdome of God is at hand Heale the sicke cleanse the leaprous raise vp the dead Therefore doth Pacianus require miracles of the Nouatians because they brought in a new Gospell And why I pray you do false Prophets that arise shew many great signes and wonders To prooue themselues to be holy No surely if they desire an opinion of holinesse it is that their doctrine might the rather be receiued But to proceed yet further if no man be holy that hath not miracles to testifie his holinesse I doubt much whether any man may be thought holy or no. For it is out of question that wicked men haue wrought miracles either truely or at least which I rather beleeue in shew so that men could not discerne the contrarie Shall I need to name Pharaoes sorcerers Doth not the Scripture tell vs that false Christs and false Prophets shall shew signes and wonders Doth not the Apostle forewarne vs that Antichrist shal come with signes and lying wonders Your owne schooleman Gabriel Biel telleth vs that miracles are wrought often times by the operation of diuels And Lyra is not afraid to say that Now and then there is great deceit vsed in the Church by miracles fained by the Priests or some that are about them for their worldly commoditie Your Church affoordeth vs examples of notorious lies in this kinde I will name two of your principall Saints Saint Bridget auoucheth that it was reuealed to her that the Virgin Marie was preserued from Originall sinne Saint Katharin of Syena had a quite contrarie reuelation From whom rrow you came these miracles Many miracles saith Theophylact haue bene done by the diuell And Austin speaking of such wonders alledged by the followers of Donatus reiecteth all such as deuises of lying men or illusions of deceitfull spirits Let vs heare your great Master Bellarmines iudgement of this matter where he maintaineth miracles as a marke of the Church Till the Church hath approoued those things that are done for miracles saith Bellarmine it is not euident or certaine by assurance of faith of any miracle that it is a true miracle His reason followeth That it is not euident it appeareth because then faith should be euident That it is not certaine by assurance of faith it is manifest because it is not cleare to vs by such assurance as cannot be false that the thing done is not an illusion of the diuell For though the diuell cannot worke any true miracle yet can he in shew do any thing neuer so wonderfull If then there be no meanes to iudge any man holy but by miracles nor any certaintie but by the testimony of the Church to know which are true miracles doubtlesse you can neuer prooue that your Church is holy because there haue bene holy men members of it till you haue first prooued it to be the true Church But of your proofe enough To your Minor I answer that Bellarmine out of whom you tooke all this maketh the holinesse of your men and their miracles two seuerall proofes though vnder the note of holinesse of life Out of him I say farther that the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles yea all that euer were holy were members of the same Church with vs holding the same doctrine that we do for the substance of it You bid me prooue it But by your leaue the duetie of prouing lies vpon the replier whose place you haue taken not
ceremonie be added to the Masse but that it was set downe in historie how could the whole substance of the Masse be newly inuented and no mention made of it This consequence is weake For those additions to the Masse were matters enioyned by your Popes and recorded by your writers of Histories not as errours but as vertues to the commendation of the Authors thereof the world growing euerie day more and more superstitious and yet there are some ceremonies other patches of your Masse about the Author wherof there is no great agreement to be found in your writers of histories But the substance of your Masse was long comming in and the words themselues in it hauing bene deuised to no ill purpose were at at last occasion of errour vpon errour as it is worthily declared by the Lord Plessy in his booke of the Masse to which I referre all men that desire to be satisfied in this matter and where I dare vndertake they may finde good satisfaction The learned know of themselues how to haue it also otherwhere in the writings of our diuines Doctor Sutcliffe and diuers other Your latter obiection carrieth some more shew of likelihood with it in this sort If Historiographers were not afraid to note personall and priuate vices of the Popes themselues why should they feare to record any alteration in religion Do you not know why Or can you not discerne the difference in this case Of whom should they be afraid Your Popes for the most part were so notoriously lewd that all your Historiographers write of them was well knowne to the world before they writ so that they could not for shame but say in a manner as much as they did But the chiefe matter was that the latter Popes had quarrels to their predecessors which was verie ordinarie and then it was not onely safe but as it were meritorious to display their villany to the world or at the least they might imagine that the vices of their predecessors would serue for a foile to their vertues Sometimes also it fell out that the Pope in verie ciuill honestie had a detestation of such bad courses as other before him had taken that gaue men some liberty to write more freely But your change of doctrine neither could easily nor might at all be discouered because it was a priuitie of your estate and a principle of your religion with your Pope and Prelates that Saint Peters vicar could not erre in doctrine As for thē in other countries who knoweth not how few monuments of antiquitie remaine Or who suspecteth not iustly that they haue come through hucksters handling as in diuers it is more then apparent Yet are there also diuers records in the writings of learned men wherein any man may see direct opposition to many points held at this day in your Romish Church After many idle repetitions turnings and windings at the last you are lighted vpon a part of our answer that those errors and abuses crept in by little and little vnperceiued For replie whereto you say it is an idle fiction already refuted How idle then is this new discourse of yours against a point which you haue ouerthrowne before But you knew well enough for all your saying that it asked further help thē you could yet affoord it Well what say you at the last iust nothing at all to purpose For what though the matters be of great moment and lesse points noted by some writers We speake not of that but of the smal difference from the truth which at the first appeared in the bringing in and beginning of your heresies A matter of small importance being apparently contrary to that which is generally held to be true shall find more to note and resist it then an errour in the very foundation of religiō so closely carried that it cānot at the first be perceiued You giue vs two exāples of very important matters the Masse and Images But you offer not to shew that they brake out all at once to the height of impietie No no they came in by degrees vnder a colour of reuerence and helpe to further men in deuotion I wittingly for beare to enter into discourse of these points because I should be too long and the matter is already performed very excellently by that honorable personage the Lord Plessy for the Masse in his first booke and for Images in his second But I may not forget to answer the imputations you charge vs withal First concerning the Sacrament you confidently auouch that we hold it to be really and substantially but a bare peece of bread Wherein you shew that wherewith afterward you charge vs about Images either your ignorance or your malice By Sacrament we vnderstand according to the truth the whole action of blessing giuing receiuing the bread and wine The bread which you call the Sacrament is but part of the matter of the Sacrament But what Do we make this bread to be really and substantially bare bread Surely for the nature of it we say and are sure that it neuer ceaseth to be bread till it be digested in the stomacke But for the vse we acknowledge it so farre as it is vsed to be holy bread and not bare bread bread appointed blessed and made effectuall by God to seale vp in our hearts the assurance of his loue in giuing his sonne for our redemption and the forgiuenesse of our sinnes resting vpon him by faith for pardon Indeed we do not as you do blasphemously call the bread our Creator or God vpon a conceit that forsooth the substance of the bread is either vanished away or else turned into the bodie of Iesus Christ to be torne in peeces with our teeth or swallowed downe into our bellies and from thence bestowed in a worse place This senselesse and monstrous opinion hath bene and is amongst you the cause of the most grosse and barbarous idolatrie that euer was committed in the world It is neither ignorantly nor malitiously done of vs to charge you for adoring stocks and stones as the Paynims did Compare the things and the worship and then shew me a true difference Are not your Images of wood gold stone as the Gentiles were Haue they not the shape and proportion of men and women as theirs had Do not you worship them as diuers of the Heathen were wont to do You couer them with cloathing of purpose and wipe their faces because of the dust of the Temple You light vp candles before them you make their faces blacke through the smoake of your incense you beare them in procession vpon your shoulders you set gifts before them your Priests haue their heads and beards shauen you call vpon them for helpe you present the blinde the halt and sicke before them to be healed But what meane I to reckon vp so many particulars Who sees not the agreement betwixt the heathen and the Papists for the matter forme
ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas Dominus commendauit vsque ad praesentem Episcopum successio Sacerdotum The succession of Priests from the very seate of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord commended his sheep to be fed vntill this present Bishop doth hold me in the Catholicke Church See the same S. Austin Epist 150. Optatus li. 2. cont Parmen S. Epiphani haeres 275. S. Cyprian lib. 1. epist 6. S. Athanas Orat. 2. cont Arianos who pronounceth them to be hereticks qui aliunde quà m à tota successione Cathedrae Ecclesiasticae originem fidei suae deducunt who deriue the beginning of their faith from any other ground then from the whole succession of Ecclesiasticall chaire And this saith he is eximium admirabile argumentum ad haereticam sectam explorandam an excellent and admirable argument wherby we may espie out and discerne an hereticall sect The which argument these Fathers would neuer haue vrged and extolled so much if they had not thought that this succession was an vndoubted good marke of the Church and that with this lawfull vninterrupted Apostolicall succession of Doctours and Pastors the true Apostolicke faith and doctrine was always conioyned The which to be conioyned we may easily proue out of S. Paul himselfe who saith Dedit Pastores Doctores ad consummationem sanctorum in opus ministerij in aedificationem corporis Christi donec occurramus omnes in vnitatem fidei agnitionis Filij Dei in virum perfectum in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi Signifying that Christ our Sauiour hath appointed these outward functions of Pastors and Doctors in the Church to continue vntill the worlds end for the edification and perfection thereof and especially for this purpose vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be litle ones wauering and caried about with euery wind of doctrine Wherefore that this ordinance and appointment of Pastors and Doctors in the Church made by our Sauiour Christ may not be frustrate of the effect intended by him we must needs say that he hath decreed so to assist and direct these Pastors in teaching the doctrine of faith that the people their flocke may alwayes by their meanes be preserued from wauering in the auncient faith and from being caried about with euery wind of new doctrine The which cannot be vnlesse with succession of Pastors be alwayes conioyned succession in true doctrine at least in such sort that all the Pastors cannot at any time vniuersally erre or faile to teach the auncient and Apostolicke faith For if they should thus vniuersally erre then all the people who do and ought like sheepe follow the voice of their Pastor should also generally erre and so the whole Church which according to S. Gregorie Nazianzen consisteth of sheepe and pastors should contrary to diuers promises of our Sauiour vniuersally erre So that we may be sure that the ordinary Pastors shal neuer be so forsaken of the promised Spirit of truth that all shall generally erre and teach errors in faith or that there shall not be at all times some sufficient companie of lawfull succeding Pastors adhering to the succession of S. Peter who was by our Sauiour appointed chiefe Pastor of whom we may learne the truth and by whom we may alwayes be confirmed and continued in the true auncient faith and preserued from being caried about with the wind of vpstart error The which being so it followeth that the true Apostolicke doctrine is inseperably conioyned with the succession of lawfull Pastors especially of the Apostolick sea of Rome Wherefore we may against all heretickes of our time as the ancient fathers did against heretickes of their time vrge this argument of succession especially of the Apostolicall succession of the Bishops of Rome We may say to them as S. Augustine saith to the Donatists Numerate sacerdotes ab ipsa sede Petri in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte Number the Priests from the seate it selfe of Peter and in that order or row of Fathers see which succeeded which We may say with Irenaeus Hac ordinatione successione Episcoporum traditio Apostolorum ad nos peruenit est plenissima ostensio vnam eandem fidem esse quae ab Apostolis vsque nunc confirmata est By this orderly succession of Bishops the tradition of the Apostles hath come vnto vs and it is a most full demonstration that the faith which from the Apostles is confirmed euen vntill now is one and the same We may tell them with Tertullian Nos communicamus cum Ecclesijs Apostolicis quod nulla aduersa doctrina facit hoc est testimonium veritatis We do communicate with the Apostolick Churches which no contrary doctrine doth and this is a testimony of the truth A. W. That Apostolicknesse which is a marke of the true Church is as I shewed Chap. 15. an agreement and sucession in doctrine with and to the Apostles not as you would haue it a personall descent from them And therfore your reason against our Churches is naught Euery Apostolicke Church say you can deriue the pedegree of their preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles The Protestant Churches cannot so deriue their pedegree Therefore the Protestant Churches are not Apostolicke Your maior is euidently false because otherwise some church professing the true faith and not keeping record of the succession of their teachers might be held not to be Apostolicall But Tertullian affirmeth the contrary directly that those Churches which agree with the Apostles in faith though they can alledge no Apostle or Apostolicke man for their first founder yet are neuer the lesse to be counted Apostolicall because of their consent in doctrine And indeed it is both impious and absurd to denie any Church to be Apostolicall that holdeth that faith by the preaching whereof the Apostles planted Churches Your minor also is vntrue because it is wel known that if you haue any such succession amongst you we haue it too For Luther Caluin and some other of our Diuines were ordered by bishops of your church Concerning Luther what reasonable mā can be so absurd as to think that Luther wold make any mā beleeue that the Gospel was first preached by himself whereas he continually appeals for the proof of his doctrine to the writings of the Prophets and the Apostles But Luther might truly say that he was the first which had in those times published Christ especially in the chiefe point of the Gospell which is iustification by faith in Christ And in this respect it is an honor to Luther to haue bin a son without a father and a disciple without a master and no more glory to your Popish Bishops and Priests to haue had so long a succession in error and heresie then for the Arians to haue bene able to reckon vp
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
yeares after Christ found out the true faith and the right way to heauen haue all the rest liued in blindnesse darknesse and errour consequently are you onely they that please God and shall be saued for as I haue prooued before without true and entire faith none can be saued and were then all the rest so many millions your owne forefathers and ancestors many of which were most innocent men and vertuous liuers and some of which shed their bloud for Christs sake were I say all these hated of God did all these perish were they all damned shall all these endure vnspeakable paines in hell for euer O impious cruell and incredible assertion Nay surely I am rather to thinke that you are vnwise who pretending to trauell toward the happie kingdome of heauen and to go to that glorious citie the heauenly Ierusalem wil leaue the beaten street in which all those haue walked that euer heretofore went thither who by miracles sometimes as it were by letters sent from thence haue giuen testimonie to vs that remaine behind that they are safely arriued there You I say are vnwise that will leaue this way and will aduenture the liues not onely of your bodies but of your soules in a path found out of late by your selues neuer tracked before in which whosoeuer haue yet gone God knowes what is become of them sith we neuer had letter of miracle or any other euident token or euer heard any word from them to assure vs that they safely passed that way me thinks I may account you most vnwise men that will aduenture such a precious iewell as your soule is to be transported by such an vncertaine and dangerous way I must needs thinke that sith there is but one right way and that the way of the Catholicke Church is a sure and approued safe way you are very vnaduised who with the aduenture of the irreparable losse of your dearest and peerlesse treasure your soule will leaue this safe and secure way to seeke out a new vncertaine and perillous way I must needs think sith the Catholick Romane Church is as I haue proued the light of the world the rule of faith the pillar sure ground of truth that you leauing it leaue the light and therefore walke in darknesse forsaking it forsake the direct path of true faith and therefore are misled in the mist of incredulitie into the wildernesse of misbeleefe and finally that you hauing thus lost the sure ground of truth do fall into the miry ditch of many absurdities and must needs be drowned in the pit of innumerable errors and erring thus from the way the veritie and the life which is Christ Iesus residing according to his promise in the Catholicke Church must needs vnlesse you wil which I hartily wish returne to the vnitie of the same Church incur your owne perdition death and damnation of body and soule from which sweet Iesus deliuer you and vs all to the honor and perpetuall praise of his holy name Amen A. W. To these idle questions of yours I answer first in generall that we may with reason enough perswade our selues that we haue the true faith and true Churches because we see that the very quintessence of Bellarmines sophistry distilled againe in your limbeck is of no force to purge out or alter such perswasion This appeares in the particulars viewed and examined To which I answer seuerally in a word The doctrine of the true Church we gladly admit and receiue yet not vpon the authoritie thereof but because it is agreeable to the Scriptures If you ask vs then why we are perswaded that we haue true faith we returne you answer that we are therefore so perswaded because we finde that which we beleeue auowed in Scripture and confirmed in our hearts by the witnesse of the holy Ghost Hereupon we conclude as well we may that we are members of the true Church our congregations true Christiā churches For wheras you charge some of vs but craftily forbeare to name them with chalenging to our selues the title of the true Church it is a slaunder of yours and no challenge of ours saue only thus far that we affirme there is no true Church which agreeth not with vs in the fundamentall points of the Gospell But we are far frō appropriating the Church to our congregations as if all true Churches depended vpon vs according to that you teach of your Romish synagogue And whereas you condemne vs for no true Churches because we want the markes of true Churches we say that you take those for markes which are not so as you vnderstand them and farther that euery one of them rightly conceiued is to be found in our seuerall congregations It is one because it holdeth that one meanes of saluation preached by the Apostles euen faith in Iesus Christ without mingling of any workes therewith of the ceremoniall or moral law before or after grace to deserue iustification of congruitie or euerlasting life of condignitie The contrary errors held by your synagogue make and proue it to be no true Church But how foolish is the reason you bring against vs The Protestants Church is not one because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie It hath meanes sufficient viz. the truth of the Scriptures and teaching of the spirit of God Put case it wanted meanes to continue vnitie would it follow thereupon that it is not One Surely no more then that a man is not aliue because he hath not means to keepe himselfe aliue Our Church hath had and by the blessing of God hath many holy men and women whose workes haue giuen and dayly do giue cleare testimonies of their inward graces Indeed we want vnholy legendaries to deuise and publish monstrous lies for miracles by which you haue gotten the aduantage of vs in the conceits of them to whom God hath sent strong delusions that they might beleeue lies But wisedome is iustified of her children though you proud Pharises despise her Our doctrine teacheth nothing but holinesse that we were chosen to be holy that we are freed from our sinnes to the end we might sinne no more that we are washed iustified and sanctified by the bloud of Christ buried with him in baptisme that we might die to sinne raised from sinne to righteousnesse by the power of his resurrection that holines of life is a part of our glorie without which no man shall euer see God that he which saith he is iustified and shewes himselfe to be vnsanctified deceiues his owne soule and is in the state of damnation Onely we neither giue the glorie of our saluation to our selues as if by the power of our freewill without speciall inclination thereof by the holy Ghost we had receiued faith which other men haue refused though they might haue embraced it as well as we for ought God did for or to vs more then for or to them nor looke to merit heauen by the worthinesse of our workes as
man should beleeue them but he that is giuen vp by God to strong delusions that he may beleeue lies Bethinke your selues and returne ere it be too late The Lord will be mercifull to your former ignorance if at the last you embrace the loue of the truth Leauing those euident proofes you speake of proofes indeed of your manifold errours you assay to draw vs by reason because it is more likelie that the vniuersall companie of Catholickes deserueth credit then any particular man or his followers First you beg that which is in question No true Catholicke euer held all the errours that your Antichristian Church maintaineth nor any one of those whereby you cast downe the foundation of religion Secondly the comparison is not betwixt the authoritie of a multitude or a few wherein number may either helpe or hinder but the reasons of each side are to be weighed all other respects whatsoeuer set apart And yet if we looke to reason are not the greatest number for the most part the worst Christs true flocke is a little one Feare not little flocke Not many wise men after the flesh not many mightie not many noble Was not the voice of the people euen of Gods people Make vs Gods to go before vs The voice of God is to be heard in the Scriptures One man that speaketh according thereunto is to be preferred before the whole world speaking otherwise Those obiections made to Luther in his priuate meditations proceeded from the same spirit by which the Pharisies spake to Nicodemus in their Councell Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisies beleeue in him This was that communicating with flesh and blood which the Apostle would not once hearken to Luther in his weaknesse was drawne into it and had perished in it if the Lord of his infinite mercy had not drawne him out of it with a worthie and admirable resolution VVith the like that it may appeare whose schollers you are you Iesuits and Priests set vpon simple people ticing them on in their ignorance your owne though the broad way that leadeth to destruction But let vs consider this your fleshly eloquence and answer to it You aske if we onelie be wise and all the rest in former ages were fooles As if we did not acknowledge that it is the mercie of God and not our wisedome that hath giuen vs the abilitie and will to vnderstand his truth We are not wiser then any other but haue found more mercy then many haue done at the hands of God for our saluation Many in former times haue bene partakers of the like mercie and bene made wise to saluation by the same truth we now professe yea it was generally held many hundred yeares til your master Antichrist draue it into holes and deserts After the reuealing of his pride and tyrannie the true way to heauen ceased not to be found though not so commonly till it pleased God to scatter those clowdie mists of ignorance and idolatrie by which you had hidden it that it could very hardly be knowne Diuers heretofore and more now adaies finde fauour with God to discerne and walke through it to the certaine and euerlasting saluation of their soules and bodies So iudge we as it becommeth vs in charitie of our forefathers that he which hath looked in compassion vpon vs their seed did not faile to shew mercy vnto them who neuer vnderstood the mysterie of your iniquitie but in the singlenesse of their hearts embraced the generall doctrine of the Gospell concerning saluation by faith in Christ This is the onely way by which all men haue gone that euer came to heauen and in this way we trauell with danger of the liues of our bodies as you speake because we are continually in hazard by reason of your conspiracies treasons massacres vnderminings and fier-works but with assurance of the saluation of our soules if we hold fast the shoot-Anchor of our hope and renouncing our owne righteousnesse repose our selues by faith vpon the gracious mercy of God our Father in Iesus Christ This doing we haue better certificate both for the securitie of our way and the end of our iourney out of the Scriptures and by the witnesse of the Spirit of God in our hearts then that lying Carier the diuel can bring by any shew of your counterfeit miracles whatsoeuer I must needs perswade my selfe sith that Apostolicall Romish Synagogue is as I haue shewed the seducer of the world by shew of authority without reason the ouerthrow and destruction of truth by denying the sufficiency of the Scripture and taking the vse of it from the people of God that all you which cleaue to it plunge your selues in hellish darknesse by refusing to see the light of Gods word and by drinking of the cup of abhomination presented to you by that strumpet of Rome loose the taste of truth and runne forward in wilfull ignorance to most certaine damnation The Lord is my witnesse whom I serue weakly as I can in the Gospell of his Son Iesus Christ that if it were possible and lawfull for me I could be content to procure your saluation by pouring out my heart bloud for euerie one of you that Iesus Christ my master might haue the glory of your true conuersion To that purpose and for the establishing of them which alreadie beleeue I first vndertooke and haue now at the last by the mercifull assistance of God finished my answer to this subtill Treatise Let me now earnestly intreat you by the care of your owne saluation by the zeale you haue in ignorance to glorifie God by the infinite loue of Iesus Christ by the vndeserued mercy of God the Father by the continuall gracious motions of the holy Ghost and by whatsoeuer is or ought to be deare vnto you that you would vouchsafe seriously in the sinceritie of your hearts without preiudice to consider whether it be not more ageeable both to the Scriptures and the light of reason to giue the whole glorie of our saluation to the mercie of God in Iesus Christ then to ascribe the enabling of vs to saue our soules to God and the vse or imploying of this abilitie to the choise of our owne free-will If your opinion be true euerie man that is saued is more beholding to himselfe then to God for his saluation For though he haue power from God to be saued if he will yet neither hath he this power but vpon preparation depending on his free-will and when he hath it the vsing of it well is from himselfe and not from God You will say he could not vse it well vnlesse he were assisted continually by the grace of God I answer that for all this assistance by that grace to vse it well the well or ill vsing of it when God hath done all he will do ariseth from the choise of a mans owne will That it was possible for me to be saued it was Gods doing that
this possibilitie tooke effect in me I may thanke my selfe more then God so that by this doctrine the glorie of euerie particular mans saluation is more due to the partie saued then to God the Sauiour Now on the contrarie side if that we teach be true the losse falles on mans part and not vpon Gods Is any man drawne out of the Iawes of hell and damnation The whole glorie redounds to God It was he that prouided meanes of saluation it was he that gaue me in particular knowledge of that meanes It was he that when I was as vntoward and vnwilling to be saued as the most damned reprobate wrought me to beleeue can I euer be vnmindfull or vnthankfull by inclining my heart to like and accept of his grace and faith in Christ But in the meane while I loose the commendation and the glory of vsing the grace of God well by my free-will O Adam Adam earth and ashes how fast doth that pride of nature whereby thou wast destroyed in thy selfe though in thee it were not naturall cleaue to euerie one of thy posteritie We had rather be thought able to gouerne our selues then be gouerned by God It is more pleasing to vs to hazard our saluation vpon the nice choise of our owne free-will then to be assured of it by the mercie of God working in vs this choise to will O that as we are all partakers of Adams pride so we might also partake with his repentance and faith Would Adam trow ye if it might be put to his choise againe venture vpon his owne free-will though he were as pure as euer he was rather then rest secure vpon Gods almightie and most certaine protection No no blessed soule he knoweth by wofull experience though by Gods vnspeakable goodnesse to his and our greater glorie that he and he only is out of danger who resignes himselfe into Gods hands to be disposed of at his gracious pleasure Why refuse we to be like to Adam in this Will we follow him in that onely of which onely he is ashamed Is it not more glorie to arise with him then to haue fallē with him O why do we euery day renew the memorie of his fault by committing the like Doth the brightnesse of the truth in these points dazle your eies Me thinks I see many of you offering to presse forward as it were to take the kingdome of heauen the doctrine of the Gospell by violence why recoile you Why quaile you on a sodaine The bare name of the Church not onely stayeth you but beateth you backward The Romish Church cannot erre VVho telleth you so Surely they that can erre your Priests and Iesuits Giue me leaue I pray you to question with you a little and for a minute of an hower be content to make vse of that reason and knowledge which God hath giuen you without forestalling your iudgements by preiudice of the authoritie of the Church Doth it not appeare to you by the light of naturall reason that the maine end of all religion is the glorie of God Do not your owne consciences testifie in the simplicitie of your hearts that it maketh more for the glorie of God that men should be beholding to his Maiestie for their saluation then that they should procure it to themselues Is it not also apparent to you in the secret of your owne soules that our doctrine by beating downe the pride of mans free-will aduanceth the glorie of Gods mercie and yours by hoysing vp the conceit of mans good choise presseth downe the estimation of Gods vnspeakable goodnesse And shall an idle sound weigh more with you then sound reason Consider I beseech you what weake grounds you build this opinion of the Church vpon I will point at that which in my answer I haue handled Can you in any sort compare the opinion of the Churches authoritie with the euidence of those matters wherewith before I pressed you Is it as cleere that there are certaine men whom I must beleeue whatsoeuer they teach as it is that I must seeke the aduancing of Gods glory more then of mine owne pride Are you as sure that these Priests and Iesuits which are your teachers be sent by the true Church and deliuer nothing but the doctrine of the true Chruch as you are that they who perswade you to rest wholy vpon God and not at all vpon your selues shew you the right way to procure Gods glory and your owne saluation Tush say you all is nothing vnlesse I beleeue it vpon the credit of the Church Alaste how did the first Christians who neuer thought on the authoritie of the Church when they heard and beleeued the Apostles doctrine Looke ouer all the Historie of the Actes peruse the Sermons of Peter and Paule and tell me whether you finde that euer they pleaded the authoritie of the Church to procure beleefe of their doctrine After men are conuerted the authoritie of the Church hath her due place and must beare sway in matters in different but for the auowing of truth her bare word is neuer of sufficient importance It was the doctrine of the Apostles that wrought vpon the hearts of men by the cleare euidence of it through the power of the Spirit wherewith it was accompanied What that doctrine was where should we learne but in the scriptures wherein they haue written what they preached These you say giue such authoritie to the Church This were somewhat if you made not their authoritie in respect of vs to depend vpon the Church The scriptures say your Doctors haue in themselues authoritie as being from God but they are not of authoritie to vs but onely by the authoritie of the Church I perceiue you are ashamed of these absurdities The Church must be beleeued vpon her word Why so The Scripture saith so How shall I know that these bookes are scripture The Church saith so The Church and the scripture prooue each other by their mutuall testimonie they giue each of other I beleeue the Church because the scripture biddeth me I beleeue the scripture because the Church biddeth me If these things seeme to be absurd as indeed they are most absurd blinde not your selues any longer with such mists of errour but come out of them to the cleare light of the scriptures reade them diligently meditate in them carefully call vpon God for his grace earnestly resigne your selues and your free-will to him sincerelie and the Lord that is most readie to blesse them that vse the meanes of knowledge and faith in humilitie and singlenesse of heart will assuredly enlighten your vnderstanding and incline your affections that you shall discerne like of and embrace the true doctrine of Iustification by faith in Iesus Christ and shall renounce your owne righteousnesse and free-will to the glorie of his grace and the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of your bodies and soules through the same his sonne to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost be all
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly