you doe notably sclaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharanes whiche doe set foorthe a true and perfecte paterne or platforme of reforming the Churche then the marke of this heresie reacheth vnto those whiche made the booke of common prayer (b) An vntruthe for I do not saye so in any place whiche you saye is a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too muche As for the Catharanes whiche were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I knowe no suche opinion they had and they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you bee Io. Whitgifte You haue sayde vnto me in one place of your booke Quid verba audiam cumfacta videam euen so I saye to you for why will they not come to oure Sermens or to oure Churches why will they not communicate with vs in oure Sacramentes not salute vs in the stréetes nay spitte in our faces and openly reuile vs whye haue they their secrete conuenticles You knowe all this to be true in a number of them I knowe not why they shoulde doe so excepte they thinke them selues to be contaminated by hearing vs preache or by comming to our Churches or by communicating otherwyse with vs. Whiche if they doe it argueth that they persuade them selues not onely of suche an outwarde perfection but of suche an inwarde puritie also that they may as iustly for the same be called Puritanes as the Nouatians The qualities of Nouatus and cause of his heresie were You knowe that the first occasion why Nouatus did separate him selfe from the Churche was bicause he coulde not obtayne the Bishoprike of Rome whiche he ambitiously desired You knowe also that his pretence was bicause the Bishops dyd receyue those into the Churche whiche had fallen in the time of persecution Afterwardes he fell into greater and mo absurdities for commonly suche as once deuide them selues from the Churche fall from errour to errour without staye This Nouatus thoughe he séemed to condemne ambition in all other men yet was he most ambitious him selfe thoughe he by vehement othes denied him selfe to desire a Bishoprike yet did he most gréedily séeke for it though he boasted of more perfection in lyfe and of a more perfecte platforme of a Churche than he thoughte others had yet was it nothing so He was the firste that I reade of that forseeke his Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie ministerie and that sayde Se nolle amplius presbyterum esse sed alterius Philosophiae studiosum that he woulde no longer be a Minister but a student in other Philosophie Reade Eusebius in his sixte booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie Cap. 43 and Nicephorus in his sixte booke also and third chapter Surely the storie of Nouatus is worthy to be noted bycause there be so many at these dayes which do not so much differ from him in opinions as they agrée with him in conditions You affirme that I saye The booke of common prayer to be a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherin nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer or too muche If I haue sayd any suche thing quote the place that the Reader may consider of it and knowe that you speake the truthe But if I neuer eyther spake or writte any suche thing then are you a false witnesse and I haue to desire the Reader to consider of the reste of your sclaunderous reportes according to the truthe of this I haue learned with Sainct Augustine to giue this reuerence onely to the wryters of Canonicali Scriptures that I thinke none of them to haue The canonicall scriptures are only absolute perfect erred in wryting And I doe firmely beléeue that onely the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture are of that absolutenesse and perfection that nothing maye be taken awaye from them nothing added to them I doe not thinke the Communion booke to be such but that it may admitte alteration I doe not beléeue it to bée so perfecte but that there maye be bothe added to it and taken from it But thys I saye that it is a godly booke withoute any errour in substance of doctrine and nothing in it that I knowe agaynst the worde of God and those imperfections or rather motes that you saye to be in it not to be suche that any godly man oughte to stirre vp any contention in the Churche for them muche lesse to make a schisme and least of all to deuide him selfe from the Churche This is my opinion of that booke whiche vnlesse by learning and good authoritie I iustifie let me haue the blame and shame of it I will not enter into your heartes to iudge what you thinke of your inwarde puritie whiche notwithstanding in comparison you haue in this present place arrogated vnto your selues that very perfection of an outwarde platforme of a Churche whiche you chalenge vnto your selues is one steppe to Nouatianisme and well deserueth the name of Catharisme ¶ Of the authoritie of the Churche in things indifferent Tract 2. Some thinges may be tollerated in the Churche touching order ceremonies discipline and kinde of gouernmente not expressed in the word of God Chap. 1. the first Diuision Admonition SEing that nothing in thys mortall lyfe is more diligently to bee soughte for and carefully to bee looked vnto a 2. Reg. 23. 3. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psal. 132. 2. 3. 4. Mat. 21. 12. Ioh. 2. 15. than the restitution of true religion and reformation of Gods Churche it shall bee your partes dearely beloued in this present Parliamente assembled as muche as in you lyeth to promote the same and to employe your whole laboure and studie not onely in abandoning all Popishe remnauntes bothe in ceremonies and regimente but also in bringing in and placing in Gods Churche those thinges onely whiche the Lorde him selfe b Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32. in hys worde commandeth Bicause it is not mought to take paynes in taking away euill c Psal. 37. 27. Rom. 12. 9. but also to be occupied in placing good in the steade thereof Nowe bicause many men see not all thinges and the d 1. Cor. 2. 14 worlde in thys respecte is maruellously blinded it hathe beene thoughte good to profer to your godly consyderations a true platforme of a Churche reformed to the ende that it beeing layde before your eyes to beholde the greate vnlykenesse betweene it and thys our Englishe Churche you maye learne eyther with perfecte e Psal. 31. 6. Psal. 139. 22. hatred to deteste the one and with singular loue to embrace and carefull endeuour to plante the other or else to be without excuse before f Iohn 15. 21. the maiestie of our God who for the discharge of our conscience manifestation of his truthe hathe by vs reuealed vnto you at this presente
any learned man but onely of certaine heretikes and especially Anabaptists To be short I haue not answered the booke by peeces but wholy Howbeit I must desyre them to pardon me for not making more speede with my answere their friuolous quotations so troubled me and my other businesse that I could no sooner make an ende of it In all the rest of that deryding Pamphlet there is nothing of any moment Augustine recor ed vpon the abu tsary worth the answering Therefore as they alledge this portion of a sentence taken out of S. Augustine in his Epistle ad Vinc n. Si terrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur If they shoulde be feared and not taught it might seme a vvicked gouernance so I con lude with the other part of the same sentence Si docerentur non terrerentur vetustate consuetudinis bdurarentur ad capescendam viam salutis pigrius mouerentur If they should be taught and not feared in time they vvoulde vvaxestubburne and bethe hardlier moued to imbracethe vvay of saluation T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. vlt. I know not whether they haue bene conferred with or no but I thinke the first reason which they had to perswade them was that they should go to Newgate ▪ which is that which the Exhortation cō layneth of after that they are first punished before they be taught And in this beh lfe M. Doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth For if he list he may learne or euer he go to prison Io. Whitgifte If they were so sent to that place it was a méete reward for such disorderly dealing for ignorance may not excuse Libellers if they libell but against a priuate man much lesse shoulde it excuse them slaundering in that maner this whole Church and realme I doubt not but that I shall learne to know my selfe to do mydutie whilest I am out of prison so that I shall not iustly for lacke of dutie and honestie deserue it T. C. Pag. 178. Lin. 2. And as for the truth of the cause and wresting and mangling of the Scriptures in most places where they are sayde to mangle and wrest and how he hath answered the r quest of the Exhortation which is to confute the Admonition by the Scriptures and how truly ptly and learnedly M. Doctor hath behaued himself in citing of the old Councels and fathers I leaue it to be esteemed partly of that which I haue sayde and partly by the deeper consideration of those which bycause they can better iudge may see further into M. Doctors faults-and rapfodyes than I can Although the truth is that I haue bicause I would not make a long booke by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other contented my selfe rather to trip as it were and to passe ouer with a light foote the heades and summes of things than to number the faults which are almost as many as there are sentences in this booke more I am sure than there are pages Io. Whitgifte I haue confuted both them and you according to the giftes and grace that God hath gyuen mée with suche authorityes both of Scriptures and other learned Auth ours as is fitte to be vsed in the decyding of suche controuersies And I am well assured that you haue not omitted the least blot in my booke and for the most part you haue feyned agaynst your owne knowledge those to be whiche are not I refuse no mans iudgement of my dealing with the olde Councels and fathers that is learned and will speake without affection what he thinketh Your hyperbolicall conclusion or figure of lying where with you close vp your booke I am well vsed vnto and therefore it doth nothing trouble me but remayneth as a certaine note of the spirite that possesseth you which is the spirite of vntruth THus haue I according to that talent that God hath committed vnto me endeuoured my selfe to defende the state of this Church of England and the orders and rites therein by publyke authoritie established agaynst the slaunderous libelles of certaine vnquiet persons and this vncharitable replie of T. C. If eyther I haue omitted any thing that might haue béene vttered as I haue omitted many things or not so fully answered euery poynt that all men thereby may be satisfied namely such as will be satisfied with reason I doubt not but that there be a great number of singular learning and knowledge which will fulfill my want The which I do desire them most heartily to do euen for the loue that they haue to the peace of the Church not to suffer so common and weightie a cause to rest onely vpon one mans shoulder so farre inferiour to so many of them in all respects The contrarie part ceasse not to lay theyr heades togither and to make it all theyr cases which would more euidently appeare if their might were according to their will Therefore séeing that we like and allowe of the state let vs not suffer it to be defaced vniustly and without either learning or truth And if it shall please the contrarie part to answere this my defense then do I require no other thing of them than the selfe same which the Author of the Replie hath required of me and the which I haue accordingly performed that is that they set downe my wordes and answere me wholy which vnlesse they do they shal not onely with all wise men greatly dis redite themselues and shewe the lacke of truth to be on their side but also ease me of some paynes for I purpose not to answere Pamphlets nor to spend the time in confuting friuolous Libels The Lorde graunt that my labours may worke that effect that I desire that is peace in the Church and true obedience in the heartes of the Subiects Amen ¶ An examination of the places cited in the end of the Replie touching matters in controuersie T. C. ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgemēt of the later writers concerning these matters in controuersie betwene vs. VVherin bicause I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make mine to grow I haue kept this moderation that I neither set downe all the writers nor all their places that I coulde nor yet of euery singular matter But the chiefest writers and either of the chiefest points or else of those wherein they are alledged against vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eache as farre as I coulde iudge and chose out most directe to that wherefore I haue alledged it For otherwise if I would haue spoken of all the pointes and of the iudgement of all the writers and gathered all the places that I coulde they would haue ben sufficient matter of an other boke as bigge or rather bigger than this I must also admonishe the Reader that I haue forborne in certeine of these titles to sette downe the iudgements of M Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter bycause they
* Scriptures alledged for profe of the phrase phrase are quoted for proofe of the matter The other practise is that where the Admonition for the shortnesse which it promiseth and was necessarie in that case could not applie the places M. Doctor presuming too muche of the ignorance of his reader thought he mighte make him beleeue that any thing else was meant by those places than that whiche they meant in deede and for which they were alleadged And where you say the quotations are only to delude such c. I see you hold it no fault in your selfe which you condemne so precisely in others that is to iudge before the time to sit in the conscience to affirme definitely of their thoughts contrary to their owne protestation But seeing you lift vp our imperfections so high ▪ and set them as it were vpon a stage for all men to be looked of to the discredite of the truth which we do mainteyne you shal not thinke much if your pouertie be pointed vnto in those things wherein you would carrie so great countenance of store Io. Whitgifte The abusing of the scriptures and the vniust applying of them is to be mainteined The abusing of scripture is to be mainteined in none neither in Papist nor other and least of all in such as séeming to giue most authoritie vnto them do by that meanes giue occasion to the aduersarie to contemne them What iust occasion might the Papists haue of triumphing if they should vnderstand that we as licenciously wring and wrest the scriptures to serue our turne as they do to serue theirs And truly as well may they applie the scriptures that they vse in the defense of their Transubstantiation Purgatory Merites Images c. as the authours of the Admonition can do to proue those things for the which they do oftentimes alleadge them And therefore I thinke that my speach in that pointe againste them cannot be too sharp Charitie doth not so couer open and manifest sinnes that it suffereth them to be vnreprehended but it remitteth priuate offences it doth not publish secret sinnes at the first neither doth it disclose all things that it knoweth to the defamation of a brother when he may be otherwise reformed But this fault of theirs in abusing the scriptu s is publike printed in bookes in euery mans hand vsed to discredite and deface this Church of England which no true member of the same ought to suffer Wherfore in detecting this vntrue dealing I haue not broken any rule of Charitie but done my bounden duty If there be so many of their quotatiōs tossed and throwen away by me c. I trust you will let me vnderstand of them as occasion is offered which surely you haue done in very few places and in those wherein you haue done it you haue done it very slenderly loosely as will appeare I take very litle or no aduantage at al of the Printer but salue that as muche as I can and where as you saye that where the Admonition quoteth the scripture not only to proue the matter but to note the place from whence the phrase of speach is taken c. that is a very féeble excuse and far fetched for to what purpose shoulde they so do or why do you not by some examples declare vnto vs that they haue so done this is but a shifte and argueth that you are not purposed to acknowledge any fault be it neuer so manifest And therefore little hope there is of any amendment And whereas you also say that the Admonition for the shortnesse which it promiseth c. to that I answere as before and I adde that it was very vncircumspectly done of them to quote places whiche coulde not be applied to that purpose for the which they were quoted In suche matters men ought to haue such regard vnto the time that they abuse not the worde of God But I haue as you say otherwise applyed their quotations than they meant indeede I thinke you will let me heare of it when you come to those places and then shall I shape you an answere To what purpose should the margent of their booke be pestred with such vnapte quotations but only to delude the reader and to make him beléeue that all things there conteined be grounded of the expresse word of God where things be open and manifest there a man may iudge though he sit not in the conscience of him of whom he iudgeth As for Protestations they be nowe so vsuall and common in euery matter and the sequele so many times contrarie to the same that it is hard for a man to giue credite at all times to all persons protesting there is experience of it I coulde alleadge examples if I were disposed Set out my pouertie as much as you can and spare it not but take héede least in so doing you shewe yourselfe poore indéede and that in those things especially wherein you séeme most to complaine of my pouertie A briefe examination c. Secondly their proofes consist especially of these arguments The Argu. a sec dum quid ad simpliciter firste is ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod simpliciter est as such and such things were not in the Apostles time Ergo they ought not to be nowe Which kind of argument is very deceitfull and the mother and welspring of many both old and new schismes of old as of them that called themselues Apostolicos and of the Aërians of new as of the Anabaptists who cōsidering neither the diuersitie of times concerning the externall ecclesiasticall policie nor the true libertie of the Christian religion in externe rites and ceremonies in matters neither commaunded nor forbidden in Gods Law nor the authoritie of Christian magistrates in the Christian congregation concerning the same haue boldly enterprised to stirre vp many and heinous errours For if these reasons should take place the Apostles vsed it not Ergo it is not lawfull for vs to vse it or this either they did it Ergo we must needes do it then no Christians may haue any place to abide in they may haue no Christian Princes no ministration of sacraments in Churches and such like for the Apostles had no place to abide in they had no Christiā Princes to gouerne them no Churches to minister sacraments in c. Likewise we must haue al things Acts. 2. 4. common we must depart with all our possessions when we be conuerted Math. 19. to the Gospel baptise abroade in the fields minister the communiō Acts. 8. in priuate houses only be always vnder the crosse and vnder Act. 2. 20. Tyrants and such like For the Apostles had al things common departed from their possessions baptised abroade in fields ministred the communion in priuate houses were always vnder persecutors and Tyrants c. Io. Whitgifte To this kind of argument and that which is here spoken T. C. maketh no answer at
men also as of Zuinglius Gastius and others Io. Whitgifte The. 14. Article Pa 4. Sect. 4. They bragged that they would defend their cause not only with Fol. 11. words but with the shedding of their bloud also T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. vlt. We feare no shedding of bloud in hir maiesties dayes for mainteining that which we hope we shall be able to proue out of the word of God and wherein we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the thinges whiche we stand vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aford them for the defense of them We brag not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirit to abide whatsoeuer hee shall thinke good to trie vs with either for profession of this or any other hys truthe whatsoeuer Io. Whitgifte Thanks be vnto God there is no cause why you should feare But wherefore do you then beate any such suspition into the peoples heads or why do you beast of that that you know is nothing néere you and whiche no man once goeth about to offer vnto you what meane you in the. 59. page of the second Admonition to say that there is a persecution of poore Christians and the professours of the Gospell suffered not farre vnlike Second Admoni Fol. 59 to the sixe articles which crafty heads deuised and brought the king hir noble father vnto as they would do hir maiestie now Can any thing be spoken more vntruly more suspiciously nay I may rightly say more seditiously If there be such things in controuersie betwixt vs that require defense euen vnto The state of the cōtētiō altered by T. C. death yea and that if euery heare of our head wer a life we ought to afoord them for the defense of the same then truly is there greater matters in hand than euery body doth consider of Hitherto it hath bin the common opinion that our contention was but about trifles about externall things such as might admit alteration and were not of the substance of religion but if this be true that you here set downe belike a great sort haue bin hitherto deceiued Truly if the matters be of such weight that they require defense of life you are much to blame that haue not hitherto made them better knowen I trust we shall in this booke vnderstand what they are In the meane time the stout bragges that are vsed by some might well be spared but we haue oftentimes séene greate cloudes and small rayne and heard great crackes of thunder and thanks be vnto God small harme done Neither are you more to be credited for these boastings than were the Anabaptists for vsing the like Io. Whitgifte ▪ The. 15. Article Page 4. Sect. 5. Their whole intent was to make a separation and a schisme and Fol. 17. 77. to withdraw men from their ordinary Churches and pastours and therfore most odiously they inueied against such pastours and sought by all meanes to discredite them T. C. Page ▪ 6. Sect. 1. We make no separation from the Church we go about to separate al those things that offend in the Church to the end that we being al knit to the sincere truth of the Gospel might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more neerely and closely ioyned togither We endeuour that euery Church hauing a lawfull pastoure whiche is able to instruct all mighte be ranged to their proper Churches whereas diuerse vnlesse they go to other than their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinarie churches and pastours Let him that inueyeth against any pastoure without good cause beare the punishment as for inueying againste heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and such ambition and tyrannie as beareth the sway in diuers ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased than God bee offended Io. Whitgifte Whether you make a separation or no and a schisme in the Churche let all men iudge and whether you draw the people from their ordinarie pastours or no let the secrete conuenticles for I can call them no better vsed not only in the citie but in other places of the countrey also testify whether iustly and as it becommeth you you enuey against such pastours and preachers as mislike your opinion and séeke their discredite let the bitter inuectiues in sermons before the people when none of them is present the common table talke bothe your Admonitions the firste and the second yea and this your passing modeste booke declare Truly this article and euery content in it was neuer more truly verefyed of the Anabaptists than it is and may be of you What you haue to say against the ambition and tyrannie of any such as you especially shoote at we shall sée in your particulars I trust you will speake al you know and more to else you do degenerate Io. Whitgifte The. 16. Article Page 4. Sect. 6. There was no staye in them but daily they inuented new opinions Fol. 18. and did runne from errour to errour T. C. Page 6. Sect. 2. We stay ourselues within the bonds of the word of God we professe our selues to be of the number of those which should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and which labor that the Image Eph. 4. v. 13 Col. 3. v. 10. of God may be dayly renued in vs not only in holynesse of life but also in * knowledge of the truth of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not bin many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truth and therefore practised and in our Church also haue bin some yeares debated Io Whitgifte Thus muche might they alleadge for themselues also and applie those textes of scripture to as good purpose as you do For that place of the fourth to the Ephe. doth 4. Eph. teach that God hath therefore appointed his ministerie in the Church that it mighte be a meanes to bring vs to a perfect knowledge of Christ. The meaning is not that we should be daily altering our iudgement and broching new opinions for against such vnconstancie the same Apostle speaketh in the. 14. verse of the same Chapter 4. Eph. ver 14. True it is that we must dayly grow in faith and loue to the full perfection whereof we cannot attaine in this life but it doth not therefore follow that we like children must be carried about with euery wind of doctrine and neuer remaine constant in one religion To the same end are the words of the Apostle in the. 3. to the Colloss to be referred I beléeue it will fall out that in this your replie there will be found sundry articles neyther allowed nor practised in any Church reformed nor
these opprobrious termes Proude generation tyrannous Lordships vngracious cruell Popelike wicked raygne proude enimies c. applied to brethren proceede not from the humble and mylde spirite of God but from the proude and arrogante spirite of Sathan Therefore by this vnseemely Preface it may appeare from what spirite the rest of this Admonition springeth Touching the crueltie and rigour Pretended persecution these men complayne of I shall neede to speake little beeing manyfest to all that be not with sinister affection blynded that lacke of seueritie is the principall cause of their licentious libertie But who seeth not their hypocrisie whiche woulde make the worlde beleeue that they are persecuted when they be wyth too muche lenitie punished for their vntollerable contempte of good lawes and other disordered dealings Nay suche is their peruersnesse or rather arrogancie that if they be debarred but from the least parte of their wyll and desire by and by they crie oute of crueltie and persecution it is to bee doubted what these men wyll doe when persecution commeth in deede whiche nowe make so muche of a little or rather of nothing As for this great bragge Stout brags For howe soeuer learned and many they seeme to be they shoulde and maye in this Realme finde owe to matche them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne Satis arroganter dictum est and verifieth that to bee true that is commonly spoken of these kinde of men that is that they contemne all other in comparison of them selues that they thinke them selues onely zealous onely learned c. But it is possible that they maye be matched and I knowe no man of learning afrayde to encounter wyth them either by worde or wryting Touching the ministerie and gouernmente of the Churche what faultes there is to be therein founde we shall vnderstande when we come to their reasons God graunt vs humble and meeke spirites that godly vnitie may be maynteined in the Churche One thing I muste desire thee to note gentle Reader wherein the folly of these men maruellously appeareth howe they haue paynted the margent of their booke with quoting of Scriptures as though al were scripture they write when as in deed they abuse the scripture and thee For what one place of scripture is in all thys Preface alleaged to any purpose and yet how many is there quoted To proue that we must reade these two treatises without partialitie or blinde affection heere is noted in the margent 1. Thes. 5. Scriptures abused in the Admonition verse 21. Iam. 1. Iam. 2. The place to the Thessaloniās is this Trie all thinges and keepe that vvhiche is good The place of of the firste of Iames is this VVherfore my deare brethren let euery man be svvifte to heare slovve to speake and slovve to vvrathe And the seconde place of Iames is this My brethren haue not the faythe of our Lorde Iesus Christe in respecte of persons And to what purpose are these places alleaged what proue they or what neede is there to alleage them These Apostles in these places speake not of rayling Libels but of Scriptures wrested hearing the worde of God and iudging of matters of faythe according to the truthe and not to the persons To proue that tyrannous lordship can not stande with Christes kingdome they alleage the. 15 of Matth. and Luke 16. The place in the. 15. of Math. verse 23. is this But he ansvvered hir not a vvorde then came to him his Disciples and besought hym saying sende hir avvay for she cryeth after vs. In the sixeteenth of Luke it is thus Then he sayde vnto them ye are they vvhiche iustifie your selues before men but God knovveth your heartes for that vvhiche is highly esteemed among men is abhomination in the sighte of God I would gladly knowe howe their assertion and these two textes hang togither I allowe not tyrannous lordeship to stande with Chrystes kingdome But it may well inoughe for any thing in these two places to the contrarie Tyrannous lordship is not esteemed among men but hated ¶ The Replie vnto the answere of the Preface T. C. Pag. 9. Sect. 2. IT maye be sayde vnto you that whiche Aristotle sayde of a certayne Philosopher that he knew not his owne voyce For if that you had remēbred that which you do so often promise that you will not answere wordes but matter the Printer shoulde not haue gayned so muche men should not haue bestowed so muche money of a thing not of so greate value nor that whiche is more the worlde shoulde not bee burdened with vnprofitable writinges For howe often runninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inueyghing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednesse maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speeche in them you haue payde it agayne with measure pressed downe and running ouer Howe often charge you them with pride and arrogancie men that confesse once or twice of them selues their wante of skill and whiche professe nothing of them selues but onely a bare and naked knowledge of the truthe whiche maye be done with modestie euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neither voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they doe not make so many wordes of Pro. 11. v. 9 it as you Salomon saythe that he that is despised and hathe but one seruaunte is better than he whiche magnifieth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth bread whereby he meaneth that the man that hathe but a little and carieth his countenance accordingly is muche more to be esteeined than he whiche beareth a greate porte and hathe not to supporte it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignorance of them woulde make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician and Philosopher as if Logike and Philosophie had beene borne with you and shoulde dye with you when as it may appeare partely by that whiche hathe beene spoken and partely by those thinges that will fall out heereafter that you are better acquaynted with the names of Logike and Philosophie than with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the Uniuersities iudgement where you haue beene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions howe often times in your booke doe you pull at the Magistrates sworde and what sworde you woulde haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment wherevpon also dothe eusue the expense of that whiche they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betweene vs howe many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations whiche
to be holden for a lavve Whereby it is manifest that those things maye be retained in the Churche whych are not expressed in the Scripture In the same Epistle he reporteth the aunswere that Ambrose made vnto hym beyng demaunded whether it were lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye or not to faste seyng that among the Churches there was some diuersitie in thys poyut Quando bic sum sayth he non ie uno Idem Sabbato quando Romae sum ieiuno Sabbato ad quamcunque ecclesiam veneritis eius morem seruate si pati scandalum non vultis aut facere VVhen I am here I faste not on the Sabboth vvhen I am at Rome I doe faste on the Sabboth and to what Churche so euer you come keepe the custome thereof if you vvill neyther suffer offence nor gyue offence The whole Epistle is worthy of reading T. C. Page 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6. The Answerer goeth aboute to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtayned yet he maye well knowe that it is no good argumente to proue that they are good For (*) A true sayings but not truely applyed as the beste earthe bryngeth forth weedes so doe the beste men bring forthlyes and errours But let vs heare what is brought that if this visarde and shewe of truth be taken awaye all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the fyrst place of Saynt Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we holde for that that the Churche may haue things not expressed in the scripture is not (a) But it is against that that nothing should be placed in the Churche whyche God in his word hath not commaunded and therefore you do here but shifte of the controuersie against that it ought to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the Scripture which are not by plaine ter es expressed in the Scripture But agaynst you it ▪ maketh much and ouerturneth all your buylding in this booke For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture they are to be obserued of the Churche which are the customes of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers then how can these things be varyed according to time place and persons which you saye should be when as that is to be retayned which the people of God hath vsed and the decrees of the forefathers haue ordayned And then also howe can we doe safelyer than to followe the Apostles customes and the Churches in theyr tyme whych we are sure are oure forefathers and the people of God Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the Papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I will not enter nowe to discusse whether it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place You (b) Vntruth proceeding of Ignorance oppose Ambrose and Augustine I coulde oppose Ignatius Tertullian Tertul. de cor milit Ignat. ad phi epist. 5. whereof the one sayth it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other that it is to kill the Lord and this is the inconuenience that commeth of suche vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose saith so and therefore it is true And although Ambrose Augustine being straungers and priuate men at Rome would haue so done yet it followeth not that if they hadde bene Citizens ministers there that they would haue done it if they had done so to yet it followeth not but y e they wold haue spokē against that appoinment of dayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of y e which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting when as the one sayth it was remedie or rewarde to fast other dayes but in Lent August d temp ser. 62 Amb. 10. li ▪ epist ▪ not to faste was synne And the other asketh what saluation we can obtayne if we blot not our synnes by fastyng seyng that the Scripture sayth that fastyng and almes doth delyuer from sinne and therefore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting which I therefore recyte bicause you would seeme by Augustine and Ambrose iudgements to alowe of the wekely and commaunded fastes Io. Whitgifte I haue sufficiently proued that the Scripture hathe not expressed all things that may be vsed in the Church touching ceremonies order and such matters for that is the question we haue nowe in handling and for further proofe and confirmation of the same I doe not disdaine the authoritie of any man especially of Augustine a man Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises for his excellent learning and sound iudgement in most poynts of Religion estéemed of all that haue any shewe of learnyng or sparkle of modestie his opinicn of the sufficiencie of the Scripture in matters of saluation of the authoritie of it in iudgeing matters of controuersie is perfecte and sounde as may be séene Lib. 2. aduersus Cresco gramma Lib. contra Maximi Lib. de vnitate ecclesiae Lib. 2 de doct Christ ▪ Chap. 16. 20. Euang. Iohannis Epist. 112. and in a number of places else he speaketh also of Ceremonyes and traditions as moderately as diuinely and as warely as any man dothe as it appeareth euidently in these places that I haue in my answere alleaged And therfore he is not wyth suche contempte to be reiected nor yet defaced wyth vntrue surmises That which commeth from so good and learned a man is the rather to be beléeued so long as it is not repugnant to the worde of God And althoughe the best earth bringeth forth some weedes yet the good fruite muste not for the wéedes sake be refused This is a very meane reason good men sometimes erre and be deceiued therefore they must neuer in any thing be beléeued But to come to the purpose you say that this fyrst place of Saint Augustine is nothing agaynst any thing that you holde c. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I holde for it proueth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determyned any certaintie but lefte them to the disposition of others for he sayth In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu scriptura diuina ▪ c. and that these things be not suche as be repugnant or against the worde of God but accordyng to the rule of Saint Paule 1. Cor. 14. if you were not of purpose disposed agaynst your owne conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader you myghte easily vnderstande by my expressed words vttered in this portion of my answere and in all other places where I haue occasion to speake of the
of the passion and resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the Apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessitie of keeping of them least happily in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lye betweene the Councels and the Apostles whiche of them decreed this And do you not perceyue howe you still reason agaynst your selfe For if the Church haue had so great regarde to that whiche the Apostles did in the es that they kepte those things which are not written and therefore are doubtfull whether euer they vsed them or no howe much ore shoulde we holde our selues to these things whiche are written that they did and of the which we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holydayes I will referre the Reader vnto an other place where occasion is giuen agayne to speake of them Io. Whitgifte My meaning therein I haue set downe in my answere It is to let you vnderstande The rule of S. Augustine doth not establishe but ouerthrow p perie S. Augustines iudgement in the matter we haue in hande The rule is true and good and so farre from establishing any péece of Poperie that if rather quite ouerthroweth the same By it we may proue the supremacie whiche the Bishop of Rome claymeth ouer all Churches neither to be written in the worde nor yet to be appoynted by the Apostles nor yet determined by auncient generall Councels for neither hath he bin alwayes nor in all places taken to be the head of the Church And it is manyfest that Phocas the traytor and murderer gaue first vnto him and his Churche that prerogatiue and therfore not lefte vnto him by the Apostles nor giuen him by the generall Councels The like may be sayde of all other thinges vsed in the Churche agaynst the worde of God For it is certayne that they haue not béene generally obserued in all places and at all times and if some of them haue bëene so obserued yet not in that maner and forme that the Churche of Rome dothe nowe obserue them So that you finde fault with this rule before you haue cause Master Zuinglius who woulde haue béene lothe one whit to strengthen the Papistes speaking of the lyke place of S. Augustine in his booke de baptismo sayth thus But leauing those thinges Zuingl de baptis of the rule of Aug. let vs returne to the wordes of Augustine who among other thinges addeth this Quanquà m quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia nec concitijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur c. Let these words sayth he preuayle with other mē as they may yet no mā can denie but that there lieth great waight of authoritie in them For if there be nothing in Councels concluded of the baptising of Infants and yet the same was vniuersally of the whole Churche obserued in Angustines time what other thing can be gathered but that it hathe alwayes beene vsed without contradiction Master Caluine also Lib. Insti Cap. 13. Sect. 21. vseth this rule of Augustine to the same purpose where he speaking of Popishe traditions for the whiche they abuse the authoritie of Augustine saythe thus Ego verò non aliundè quam ex ipsius Augustini verbis solutionem afferam Quae toto inquit terrarum orbe seruantur vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel concilijs generalibus quorum est in ecclesia saluberrimā authoritas statuta esse intelligere licet Verily I will fetche a solution from no other place than from the very wordes of Augustine Those thinges sayth he which are obserued throughout the whole world are vnderstode to haue bin instituted either of the Apostles themselues or of generall Councels c. As it is in the answere to the Admonition I knowe no reason why the Apostles maye not be sayde to be the authors of celebrating the day of the Passion c. Neither yet doe I vnder stande anye cause why the Churche maye not still obserue the same sure I am that they were not the authors of the superstitions and errours vsed in them by the Papistes neyther dothe Augustine saye so for this is no good argument to saye the Apostles appoynted these dayes to be celebrated Ergo they appoynted the manner of celebrating vsed by the Papistes The dayes maye be wyth more godlynesse and profite to the Churche obserued béeing clensed from super stition and erroneous doctrine than abrogated Neyther is thys to open a gate to Papisticall traditions but to shutte it close vp as I haue sayde before For let the Papistes if they can name anye wycked thing vsed in their Churche whiche eyther bathe béene generally obserued or wherof I am not able to shewe the first author and inuentor Neyther Aug in this place nor I in any place haue sayde or con it 〈◊〉 thing not cōntayned in the Scripture to bee so necessarie to bee obserued that vpon inst consideration it may not be altered by suche as haue authoritie And 〈◊〉 all that you doe say haue sayd or shall say 〈◊〉 that effecte is forged and vntrue deuised onely by you as a shifte to flye vnto when otherwise you are to seeke for answere To these your wordes they are necessarie to be kept if they be commanded by the Apostles ▪ meaning suche things as Augustine speaketh of I answere with master Caluin who as I tolde you before writing vpon these wordes 1. Cor11 Quemadmodum tradidi vobis c. dothe graunt that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written but he denieth them to be taken aspartes of doctrine o necessarie to saluation saying that they be onely suche as pertayne to order and pollicie The rest of this section of yours is nothing but Petitio Principij For neither doe I moue any such doubt in Augustines words neither is it materiall whether I do or no nether yet is it true that there is any thing commaunded of God or of the Apostles as necessarie to saluation whiche is not contayned in the worde of God neyther are these and suche like traditions partes of doctrine and of saluation as M. Caluin truely sayth but of order and pollicie Who woulde thinke that any man excepte he had hardened his face without A grosse error of T. C. blushing to affirme vntruthes would haue fallen into suche grosse absurdities and vttered suche straunge assertions voyde of all truthe Haue you euer read in Scripture or in the writinges of any learned man or can you by reason proue this Paradox that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation What is to lay an intollerable yoke and burthen vpon the neckes of men if this be not or whereby could you more directly bring vs into the bondage of the lawe from the whiche we are made free than by this assertion for if all the commaundements Gal. 5. of God c. are needefull for
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
notorious for what do either they or you but deface euen the best learned and wisest of such as withstand you thinking none sufficiently learned but yourselues and your adherents For the number of sufficient ministers in France able to preach in the time of the crosse I will not take vppon me to define any thing yet haue I talked with some wise godly and learned preachers of that countrie such as had good cause to know the state of that Church touching that matter and truly for any thing that I can learne of them you haue ouershot your selfe in reckening at the least 14. hundreth But I am not curious in matters not apperteyning vnto me and I write but of credible reporte God be thanked for the number that they had or haue howe many or howe fewe soeuer they are Touching the number of preachers throughout England I cannot write any certaintie but of this Uniuersitie bycause I haue some experience you shall giue me leaue to speake as earnestly in truly commending of it as you haue done in vntruly and vnkindly defacing and slaundering it The number of knowne preachers which this vniuersitie hath bredde since the beginning of the Quéenes Maiesties reygne to this time of the yeare of our Lord Anno. 1573. are at the least 450. besides those that haue bin called to that office after their departure from hēce and are not yet knowne to me The number of preachers that be now in this Uniuersitie remayning is 102. and no doubt but God will encrease the number of them dayly more and more Although The contentions in the Church is an hindrance to the profession of diumitie in the vniuersities it must be confessed that the factions and tumults which you and some others haue made in the Churche do discourage a great number from the ministerie causeth many to contemne it and thinke the calling to be vnlawfull and therefore to absteyne from it Moreouer I know by experience that some of you deuise and practise by all meanes possible to styrre vp contention in this Uniuersitie to disswade men from the ministerie to bring such as be sober wise learned and godly preachers into contempt and to make a confusion and diuide euery Colledge within itselfe But howsoeuer hitherto you haue preuayled as you haue preuayled to much yet I trust you shall neuer throughly bring to passe that which you desire And I doubt not but that your vnduetifull vnciuill and vncharitable dealing in this your booke your many errours and foule absurdities conteyned in the same hath so detected you that honest discréete quiet and godly learned men will no more be withdrawen by you and such as you are to any such schisme or cōtention in the Church but rather bend them selues against the common aduersarie and séeke with hart and mouth to build vp the walles of Ierusalem whiche you haue broken downe and to fill vp the Mynes that you haue digged by craft and subteltie to ouerthrow the same And howsoeuer some will still be way wardly disposed yet I doubt not but that if such as be in authoritie will do their duties they may by conuenient discipline either be kept within the bonds of modestie or else remoued from this place wherein of all other places they may do most harme For the Innes of Court what they would do I know not howbeit I think very few haue gon from this place thither whiche had euer any purpose in them to enter into the ministerie And surely from that place where I am I haue not knowne any go to the Innes of Court in whome there hathe appeared any kind of inclination to the ministerie What store of fit preachers those Innes would yeld if your Church were framed I know not but I thinke that some of thē would not refuse the spoile of this I doubt not but that there are many in the Innes of Courte well affected in religion God continue them and encrease the number of them and giue them grace to take héede that they be not seduced by ouermuch credulitie in themselues and pretensed zeale in others What Galene and Iustinian would do may be doubted for though both Galene and Iustinian haue forsaken our ministerie yet do they kéepe such liuings as they had in the respect of the same and are so farre from yelding of tenthes that they can be well content to receiue tenthes Chap. 1. the tenth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 37. Sect. 1. Touching letters commendatorie of some one mannoble or other Letters commendatorie of wise and godly men it may be that the parties which giue these letters be of that zeale learning and godlinesse that their particular testimonie ought to be better credited than some other subscribed with an hundred handes And I thinke there is both noble men and other who may better be trusted in that point than a great number of parishes in Englande which consist of rude and ignorant men easily moued to testify any thing And in many places for the most part or altogither drowned in Papistrie I know no reason to the cōtrary and I see no scripture alledged why one learned godly and wise mans testimonie may not be reteiued in such a case and yet the booke expresseth no such thing The b oke quireth due examination of life and learning but requireth due examination of learning and sufficient testimonial of conuersation and giueth libertie to any one particular man to obiect any crime against any suche as are to be ordered willeth that the partie accused be kept from the ministerie vntill he haue cleared himselfe of the crimes obiected If tag and rag be admitted learned and vnlearned it is the fault of some not of all nor of the law And if they were called and elected according to your fantasie there would some creepe in as euill as any be now and woorse too T. C. Page 26. Lin. 8. It is not denyed but the testimonie that a noble man whiche professeth the truth dothe gyue ought to be weighed according to his degree and place which he hath in the common welth but where you thinke that the testimonie of one wise man learned and godly is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paule vsed who when he admitted Timothie into his company to be a companion in his iourney to cut off all occasion of euill speach receyued him not*but vpon commendation of the brethren both in Lystra Act. 1 and Iconium Io. Whitgifte I know that the testimonie of many godly and wise men is of more weight than the testimonie of one only but this is no answer to that which I haue said The place of Paule and Timothie Act. 16. declareth how well Timothie was thought of and commended vnto Paule but it followeth not that Paule would not also haue receyued him if he had bin commended vnto him but by some one Howsoeuer it is this your
Maxentius and Licinius did then persecute persecution in Constantines time And therefore you see you are greatly deceyued in your accompt Now if it be as lawfull for vs to vse M. Caluins authoritie which both by example and writinges hath always defended our cause as it is for you to wring him and his words to things which he neuer inent and the contrary whereof he continually practised then this authoritie of yours is dashed For M. Caluine saith whereas it is saide in that councell that the election shoulde not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing Vpon the Acts. 16. some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouide that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were chefe in the election of the Churches And euen the same order would we haue kept in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we woulde haue the libertie of the Churche preserued whiche Christ hath bought so deerely from all tyrannie So do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre the barbarous confusion and disorder Io. Whitgifte Where do those that write the Centuries suspecte that Canon why note you not the place there is not one worde tending to that end in that place where they speake of this Councell Neyther as I thinke are you able to shew any suche thing affirmed by them and it is the first time that euer I either red or heard it doubted whether thys were a Canon of that councell or no. In the. 4. Cent. col 435. I find these words variant ab ac consuetudine mirum qua veritate constitutiones Concilij Laodiceni quae ordinationes iudicio multitudinis fieri probibuerunt The constitutions of the Councel of Laodicea which forbad Cent. 4. the ordeyning of ministers to be done by the iudgement of the multitude do varie from this custome of electing by the people it is maruel by what truth But no mā can hereof gather that they doubt whether this Canon be a bastard or no. Only they doubt whether this decrée was made according to the truth The general Councel at Cōstantinople which is called Synodus 6. did both allow this councell and ratifye it It is not greatly materiall at what time this Councell was holden Neyther dothe it follow that bycause this decrée was now made against such elections of the people therefore the people had before this time in al places interest in electing of ministers for it may be that some claimed this interest and moued the people to contende for it then as you do now and therefore the Synode might vpon that occasiō make this determination as the like might be made at this time in this Churche of Englande against such parishes as take vpon them the election of their Pastors as you before affirmed Page 3. some to do and yet we could not therevpon truly conclude that before the time of this prohibition the election of ministers was either generally or orderly cōmitted to the people in this Church of England I haue not in any place said that this order of choosing the minister by the voyces of the Church was but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution neither yet that they could clayme it of dutie in either of these times or that it was then generall and in all places for I haue before shewed the contrary And where you thinke that I will not say the Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines The Church in persecution in Constantines time time though it be not materiall yet must I tell you that I thinke it was for euē then Maxentius and Licinius did persecute and continued in persecuting by the space of 13. yeares after Constan. began his reygne and it is saide of Licinius that he killed many thousandes of Christians I haue not at any time wrung M. Caluines words to any other sense than he hymselfe hath written them if it be otherwise make it knewne for I haue delt playnely and set downe his words so haue not you In his Institutions cap. 8. Sect. 63. thus he writeth of this Councell Est quidem illud fateor c. And surely I confesse that it was Caluine of the Councell of Laodicea vpon great reason decreed in the Councell of Laodicea that the election shoulde not be permitted to the multitude for it scarcely at any time happeneth that so many heads shuld with one consente determine any thing And that saying is almost true that the vnstable multitude is deuided into contrary factions c. Then doth he tell what order was obserued in elections firste the Cleargy only did choose then did they offer him whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senate and chiefe rulers who after deliberation did confirme the election if they liked of it if not then did they choose another whome they thought to be more méete In the ende the matter was propounded to the multitude rather to know their desire and require their testimonie than to gyue them any interest either of choosing or refusing this is the summe of Caluines meaning and this he saith was the meaning of that Councell which I say is in ffect to take away the election from the people Your note in the margent must be corrected for Caluine hath no suche thing vpon the. 16. of the Acts but the like he hath vpō the. 14. howbeit the words of the Councel be playne quòd non sit permittendum turbis electiones eorum facere qui sunt ad sacer dotium prouebendi Concil Laodicen Can. 13. That it ought not to be permitted vnto the multitude to make elections of them which should be preferred to the ministerie And there can be no doubt of the meaning of the Councell bycause it appeareth in the. 12. Canon that they would haue Byshops preferred to ecclesiasticall dignitie by the iudgement of the Metropolitane and other Can. 12. Byshops Libertie and tyrannie be too common in your mouth It is no tyranny to restraine the people from that libertie that is hurtfull to themselues and must of necessitie ingender contentions tumults and confusion Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 3. But if Councels be of so great authoritie to decide this controuersie thē the most famous Councell of Nice wil strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistl that it writeth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that (a) This is 〈◊〉 of the Clearg not of the people you should haue power both to choose any man and to giue their names which are worthy to be amongst the Cleargy and to do all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the Church and if it happen any to dye in the Church then that those which were last taken to be promoted to the honoure of him that is
substance or being of baptisme whether Pa. 114. Sect. 1. he be minister or no that ministreth that sacrament Pag. 114. And this is that mysterie which you and your fellowes will not as yet openly vtter but craftily dissemble vntill you sée better oportunitie The truth is your intent is rebaptization and flat Anabaytisme But I haue declared sufficiently the vanitie of your collection in thys place and the weakenesse of your reasons touching this matter where you haue gyuen me more especiall occasion to speake of it Tract 9. Chap. 7. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 2. 3. Seing then that the scripture doth teach this order that there should be no minister thrust vppon the Churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that ways and the vse of the Church hath bin so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution both vnder tyrants and godly princes it cannot be without the high displeasure of almightie God the greate hurt and sore oppression of the church that one man should take this vnto him which perteyneth to so many or one minister which perteyneth to more than one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man wil rise vp and say that this doctrine bringeth in disorder and by this meanes children boys and women should haue their voyces which is vnseemely all men vnderstande that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to do whiche are heads of families and that this is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered and requireth rather a Censor than a disputer to suppresse it Io. Whitgifte The scripture doth not teach any such order it hathe examples to the contrary it presribeth herein no certayne rule to be perpetuall there is better reason to the contrary if the diuersitie of the time and other circumstances be considered the Church also hath not at all times nor in all places vsed one forme and manner of election not in the Apostles time as it hath bin declared wherefore the Church is neyther hurte nor oppressed if the godly Magistrate alone do appoynt in it Byshops and take such order for admitting other inferioure Pastors as shall be thought to him most conueniente Neyther is God displeased with them for so doing if they séeke his glory therein the godly peace and quietnesse of the Church and haue respect to the end of the Apostles in appointing ministers But he is greatly displeased with those that make a necessitie where none is and trouble the Churches with their owne deuises and make contention for externall matters ¶ It is not necessarie that the people should haue interest in the election of ministers but the contrarie is conuenient Chap. 8. the. 1. Diuision Io. Whitgifte NOwe that you haue vttered all your authorities and reasons to proue that the people ought to haue interest in the electing of their ministers that I haue sufficiently I truste answered the same Lette it not be troublesome vnto you if summarily I collect my reasons that moue me to thinke the contrarie 1. And fyrst I will proue that there is no certaine forme of electing prescribed in Scripture but that the same is left frée for the Churches to appointe as shall bée thought most conuenient for their states and tymes 2. Secondly I will shewe that there hath bene greate diuersitie from tyme to tyme vsed in the Churche touching elections and that the people at all tymes and in all places haue not bene admitted thervnto 3. Last of all I will sette downe the reasons why the people haue bene debarred from such elections and why they ought still so to bée Touching the fyrst these be my reasons 1. Chryst whose factes and déedes we ought especially to followe did of himselfe Math. 10. Luke 10. alone without the consent of any call and choose his Apostles and lykewise the 70. disciples whome he sent to preache 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this maner and forme for they presented two and the one of them was chosen by lotte 3. In the. 6. of the Actes they cleane altered this also for the people presented seuen to the Apostles and they were all chosen withoute lottes the Apostles also layde on their handes vpon them 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this forme is lykewise changed for Paule and Bar abas ordeyned ministers in euery citie without eyther presentment by the people or casting of lottes 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manyfest that Paule and Barnabas were sent onely by the Prophetes and Doctours without any consent of the people eyther giuen or required reade the beginning of the Chapter it is playne inough of it selfe 6. Paule sent Timothie and Titus and gaue them authoritie to ordeyne other 1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1. So that it is certayne that here is no prescripte maner and forme appoynted to be obserued for euer séeing that the Apostles themselues did not bynd or tie themselues to anye suche rule which both M. Bullinger Zuinglius and Beza doe lykewyse confesse as I haue before declared And therefore M. Caluine as I tolde you before sayth that of that example in the first of the Acts no certayne rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers And M. Beza is of the same iudgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I haue lykewise declared before And in that booke of confession and. 5. Chapter he hathe this saying worthie to be noted Bycause the multitude is for the most parte ignorant and intractable and the Beza lib. con cap. 5. greater parte doth oftentymes preuayle agaynst the better not in a popular state lawfully appoynted are all things committed to the vnbridled multitude but certain Magistrates are appoynted by the consent of the people to rule and gouerne them if this wysedome be in worldely affaires muche more is a moderation to be had in those matters wherein men be oftentymes blynded Neyther is there any cause why any man of sounde iudgement should exclame that in such matters there is no place for pollicie except he can shew this policie wherof I speake to be repugnant to the word of God whiche I thinke he can not Hitherto M. Beza and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers And a little after he sayth that wee must not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in Ecclesiasticall pollicie Idem or in the gouernment of the Churche seeing there is so great diuersitie of circumstances that a man can not without preposterous zeale reduce all things in all places and tymes to one and the same forme but it is sufficient if respect be had to their ende and purpose whiche is not variable and that maner and forme vsed whiche leadeth therevnto c. Wherupon also I conclude that in the Scriptures there is no
your wordes vttered in this place they will then no doubte vnderstande that you séeke fréedome from all lawes of Princes and imagine that suche perfection maye be in men that they shall not néede to be gouerned by ciuill lawes but euery man to be a lawe to him selfe And héere your subtile dealing is worthy to be noted whiche is very vsuall with you in altering the case for whereas the kynde of apparell is appoynted to be a distinction from other men and an externall note of their calling as it is in other sortes of men as Iudges Sergeantes Aldermen c. you as though you knewe not this make your Reader beléeue that the Magistrate in appoynting apparell dothe mistrust the Ministers discretion in wearing his owne geare comely and in order as if the meaning of the Magistrates commaundement héerein were that Ministers shoulde not goe eyther dissolutely or disorderly and not rather that all Ministers shoulde vse that fourme of decent apparell whereby they mighte in one vniforme order agrée ámongest them selues and differ from other states of people in hir Dominions If you ment vprightly you woulde not so often deale in this order Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 55. Sect. 1. Iudges Sergeants Aldermen and Citizens are knowne by their apparell and why maye not Ministers be so likewyse are they not vnder subiection be they not subiect to ciuill lawes and ordinances ought they not to obey their gouernours in all things not agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 2. And whereas you woulde proue that it maye be done with the Ministers as it is done wyth Iudges Sergeantes Aldermen and Sheriffes the case is not lyke For as for these which be in office their robes and gownes may as their maces and swordes somewhat helpe to set foorthe the maiestie and moderate pompe whiche is meete for the offices of Iustice whiche they execute and consequently to helpe to strike a profitable feare into their hearts whiche are vnderneath them whiche hathe nor can haue no place in the minister whose authoritie and power as it is not outwarde so can it not nor ought not to borrowe any credite of those externall shewes And the Magistrate or the Citie may seeke some honor of the Citizens mustering as it were by numbers in one liuerie whiche ought not to be looked for at the ministers hande because he honoreth and serueth the Magistrate an other waye nor can not also considering that they are scattered throughe all the lande in euery Towne one or not so many as beeing put in one liuerie would make any great shewe to the honour and commendation of the Towne or Citie where they remayne Io. Whitgifte I mighte as well answere for Iudges Sergeants c. as you doe for ministers and saye that seeing the Magistrate dothe allowe them as wyse learned and discrete men and trusteth them with the gouernment of the common wealthe it were somethyng harde not to trust them with the appoynting of their owne apparell but so shoulde I reason fondly and seditiously for it is méete that learned wyse and discrete men should be subiecte to lawes and the wyser the learneder and the discréeter they be the more willing they are to obey the same And this kinde of argument tendeth to nothing else but to the animating of the subiects agaynst the Magistrate and agaynst the lawes The subiects an nated 〈◊〉 the magistrate Thoughe the authoritie that the Minister oughte to haue muste come especially by his doctrine good conuersation and by his calling yet is no outwarde meanes béeing lawfull to be refused whereby the same maye be helped and he muste labour as muche as he can euen by outwarde meanes whether it be of conuersation or of apparell or any suche lyke thing to commende his office and calling and to procure reuerence vnto it A man mighte lykewyse saye that Princes Iudges and Magistrates are not to be reuerenced for their apparell sake but for the authoritie committed vnto them by God and yet is it méete and conuenient that they weare suche kinde of apparell as may externally commende their authoritie The apparell of Ministers declareth their modestie and grauitie signifieth their calling and office perteyneth to comelynesse and order and therefore as conuenient to be prescribed vnto them as any other kinde of apparell is to Iudges Sergeantes or other ciuill Magistrates And forasmuche as Ministers be members of the common wealthe it is méete that they shoulde be subiecte to the orders of the same It is the honor of the Prince to haue all the states and degrées of persons within hir dominion in good order be they in Citie or in Towne togither or separate and therefore this is nothing that you say the Magistrate or the Citie maye seeke some honor of the Citizens c. The Iudge wheresoeuer he goeth ought to be knowne by his apparel euen so the Minister neyther can you shewe any good reason to the contrarie M. Caluine vpon Caluine the. 23. of Mat. sayth it is méete that Doctors should in grauitie and modestie of apparell differ from the common sorte Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 3. And so you see your question answered whereby appeareth they are subiectes as other are and to obey also sometimes where the commaundement is not giuen vpon good grounds Io. Whitgifte It is answered in déede according to my expectation but neyther according to the truthe nor the duetie of a subiect The distinction of Apparell was appoynted for Ministers before the Popes tyrannie Chap. 4. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 55. Sect. 2. 3. If you doubte whether a particular kinde of apparell differing from the lay men were euer appoynted for Ministers in the Church before the Popes tyrannie and whether in these dayes it maye be appoynted in reformed Churches or no heare the iudgement of master Bullinger and master Gualter in an Epistle written by thē to master N. and master M. Their words be these That in the auncient Churche there vvas a particular fashion of apparell Bullinger Gualter for Priests it appeareth in the Ecclesiasticall historie of Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 27. and of Socrates lib. 6. cap. 22. No man is ignorante vvhich hath but lightly redde ouer the monumentes of the auncient fathers but that the Ministers vsed a cloake in their seruice And therefore I say de before that the diuersitie of garmentes had not his originall of the Pope Eusebius citeth out of the auncient vvryters that sainct Iohn the Apostle vvare on his head a leafe or thinne plate lyke vnto a Bishops myter Pontius Diaconus vvitnesseth of sainct Cyprian the Martyr that vvhen he offered his necke to the executioner he first gaue him his cappe and the Deacon his vpper garment and so stode appareled in vvhite linnen Moreouer Chrysostome maketh mention of vvhyte apparell of Ministers Hitherto Bullinger and Gualter T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 3.
them when as the Byshopprike of Rome and of Alexandria nowe a good whyle was passed beyonde the Limites of Priesthoode to an outwarde Dominion He sayth not leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion as you translate it But why doth Socrates burste out into thys reprehension of them euen bycause Socrates a fauourer of y e Nouatians Niceph. lib. 6. Cap. 37. lib. 9. 13. they expelled the Nouatian heretikes of whome Socrates was a fautor as it may appeare in Nicephorus wherefore he dothein that place affectionately and vniustly reproue both the Byshop of Rome and Alexandria for stoutly resisting those heretikes and expelling them from their Churches especially they nowe increasing to so great a multitude as it may séeme by Socrates wordes they dyd And althoughe the words of Socrates whiche I haue alreadie recyted iustifie this to be true yet doth his words followyng declare the same more euidently For he commendeth the Byshop of Constantinople bycause he friendly interteyned the Nouatians suffered them quietly to remayne wythin the Citie and yet it is certayne that the Byshop of Constantinople had as large authoritie as the Byshop of Alexandria wherefore Socrates in thys poynt is no more to be beléeued against those Byshops than you are against the Socrates doings agreable to our time Byshoppes in thys Churche whose authoritie you maligne vpon the lyke occasion Chap. 2. the. 40. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 3. 4. And (a) Where i truth become although M. Doctor hath brought neither Scripture nor reason nor Councell wherein there is either name of Archbyshop or Archdeacon or proued that there may be And althoughe he shew not so much as the name of them foure hundred yeares after our saniour Christ. And although where he sheweth them they be either by counterfeit authors or without any worde (b) Would you haue better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tha decrees for th authoritie and continuall 〈◊〉 I se of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himself and putteth the crowne vpon his owne head saying that those that be learned maye easily vnderstande that the names Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest Councels fathers writers and a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant which saye otherwyse Here is (c) Vanitie a victorye blowen with a great and sounding trumpet that myghtè haue bene piped with an o en straw and if it shoulde be replyed againe that M. Doctor hath declared in this little learning little reading and lesse iudgement there mighte growe controuersies without all fruite Io. Whitgifte If I were not acquainted with this spirit it would make me muse at such euident and manifest vntruthes ioyned with so prophane iestes and tauntes If I had alleaged no moe authorities but onely the Councell of Nice it had bene sufficient to haue disproued this so bolde assertion of yours But séeyng I haue alleaged other testimonies also which euidently proue my purpose I muste néedes thinke you not to be a man that greatly careth for your owne credit but if you thinke they are few therefore accompt them for none I haue now I trust in this Chapter 25. Diuision supplyed their want and made vp the number What Scriptures I haue appeareth afterwards It is sufficient if I finde there the office of an Archbishop as I doubte not but I shall and therefore I say againe that to doubt of the antiquitie of these names and offices argueth great penurie of reading the auncient writers Chap. 2. the. 41. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And for as much as the originall and beginning of these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and such like such is their antiquitie cannot be found so farre as I haue reade it is to be supposed they haue their originall from the Apostles themselues For as I remember S. Augustine hath thys rule in hys August ▪ 118. Epist. ad Ianuar. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures and yet by tradition obserued of the vvhole Churche come eyther from the Apostles or from generall Councels as the obseruing of Easter the celebrating of the day of the ascention and of the comming of the holy Ghost suche like Uery vnlearned therefore and ignorant be those which so boldly affirme that these names vsed in the purest time of the church be Antichristian T. C. Page 74. Sect. 4. 5. And by and by in saying that the Archbyshops beginning is vnknowne in steade of a (a) Modestie bastard which some brought into the Church that hid themselues bycause they were ashamed of y ◠child he will make vs beleue that we haue a newe Melchisedech without father without mother whose generation is not knowen and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. Epistle to Ianuarie that the original of them is from the Apostles themselues Here (b) This is fro the matter M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had net Augustine by him when he wrote thys sentence and yet he maruellously forgetteth himselfe for he vsed this place before in his 23. Page and cyteth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued and howe that thereby a window is open to bryng in all Popery whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honour as they are vsed in this Realme are not meete to be giuen to the Ministers of the Gospell there hath bene spoken before Io. Whitgifte This place of Augustine is of greater force and credite with those that be learned than that it can be shifted off I haue answered whatsoeuer you saye against it in that place and shewed of what credite it is with some famous writers of our time namely with Master Zuinglius Master Caluine and Master Gualter And surely I thinke no learned man doth dissent from them Your iestes are to vsuall and vnséemely for a Diuine especially when you abuse the scripture to make sport withal I might haue sayd also of you y t you sought after some glory of a good memorie when as you vsed the like kinde of speach in alleaging of Gildas and Lumbard Pag. 68. but that I am not delighted with such kinde of eloquence Pag. 68. Sect. 4. Chap. 2. the. 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Whether that the name of Prelate of the Garter Earle Coūtie Palatine Honor high commissioner Iustice of peace and Quorum Ciuill offices giuē to ecclesiasticall persons being necessary offices in this common weale partly for the honour of the Prince and Realme but especially for good gouernment of all estates and degrees of persons be Antichristian let those consider
Bees the Cranes that be in the world You see therfore how weake this reason is The rest of this reason I haue answered before T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. To the Papists obiecting for the supremacie y e S. Peter was the prince chief of the Apostles M. Caluin answereth first by denying y t Peter was so bringeth many places to proue y t he was equal to y e other Apostles afterward he saith although it be graunted y t Peter was chiefe yet foloweth it not bicause one may bear rule ouer twelue being but a few in number that therfore one may rule ouer an hundreth thousand that it followeth not that that which is good amongst a few is foorthwith good in ll the worlde Nowe let all men iudge with what conscience and truste M. Doctor citcth M. Calnine for to proue the office of the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in the same place hathe these wordes It is not to be maruelled that Cal. inst ca. 8. the twelue had one amongst them that might gouerne the rest For this thing doth nature allow the disposition of man require that in euery societie though all be equal in power yet som should be as it were moderator of the rest vpon whō the other might depend Ther is no court without a Consull no session of iudges without a Pretor or iustice no Colledge without a gouernour no societie without a maister so should it not be any absurditie if wee should confesse that the Apostles gaue such preheminēce vnto Peter Now let the Reader iudge whether it be Caluines meaning in good earnest or no y t there was one chief among the Apostles which being true as it is M. Doctor may with good conscience vse this answere of M. Caluine both against the Papistes and the authours of the Admonition also reasoning not much vnlyke vnto them Chap. 6. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 102. Sect. 1. But I maruel y t he could not also see that which M. Caluine writeth in y e next sentence almost where he sayth y t Christ is only the head of the church that the church doth cleaue vnto another vnder his 〈◊〉 but by what meanes According saith he to y e order forme of policie which he hath prescribed but he hath prescribed no such forme of policie y t one Bishop should be ouer all y e ministers Churches in a whole dioces or one Archbishop ouer al the ministers and churches in a whole prouince therfore this form of policie which is by Archbishops such Bishops as we haue is not y e meanes to knit vs one to an other in vnitie vnder the dominion of Christ. Touching y e titles names of honor which are giuen to the Ecclesiastical persons with vs how that princes 〈◊〉 Magistrates may and ought to haue the title which cannot be giuen to the ministers I haue spoken before therfore of Archbishops Archdeaco s and the Lord bishops thus farre Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in the nexte section after that he hath answered to other arguments of Cal. insti ca 8. the Papists saith thus But let it be as they would haue it that it is good profitable that the whole world should be conteined in one monarchie which notwithstanding is most absurd but let it be so yet I wil not therfore graunt that it doth likewise hold in the gouernmēt of the churche For the church hath Christ her only head vnder whose gouernment we are knit together acording to that order and forme of policie which he himself hath prescribed VVherfore they do Christ notable 〈◊〉 which vnder this pretence will haue one man to rule ouer the whole church bicause she can not want a head for Christ is the head wherby the whole bodie being compacted and coupled by euery ioynt of gouernment dothe according to the operation in the measure of euery member iucrease to a perfect bodie Al whiche I agrée vnto as moste true but nothing at all perteyniug to youre purpose 〈◊〉 sayth that vnder the gouernment of Christe we cleaue together among our selues according to that order and that forme of pollicie whiche he hath himselfe prescribed And who denyeth this But Quorsùm This he speaketh of the spiritual regiment and policie not of the externall and yet that externall regiment and policie is also 〈◊〉 by him whiche is profitable for his Churche according to tyme place and pers ns though it be not particularly expressed in his word as partly hath bin declared before and shall be hereafter more at large vpon particular occasion Thus haue you after so many yeares trauel in this controuersie vttered all your skil against the Archbishop poured out alyour malice exercised your gibes and iests whetted your slaunderous tong and yet besides corrupt and false allegati ns of wryters fonde and toyish distinctions of your owne contrary to al practise and learning vnchristian speaches and heathenish floutes and frumpes you haue vttered nothing And I protest vnto the whole Church before God y t your vnfaithfulnesse in handeling the matter your vaine and friuolous reasons haue muche more animated me to the defense of those auncient reuerend profitable and necessarie offices I speake of the offices as they be vsed in this church And I shal most heartily desire the Reader to weigh and consider the authorities and reasons on both parties indifferently and to iudge therof according to the truth ¶ A briefe collection of suche authorities as are vsed in this defense of the authoritie of Archbishops and Bishops Ca. 7. Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Chrysostome saith in 1. Ti. 5. y t gens ferè tota Testimonies of the Apostles tymes thervnto adioyning Asiatica almost the whole countrey of Asia was cōmitted to him And vpon the. 2. to Timo chap. 4. he saith that Paul had cōmitted to Timothie gubernacula ecclesiae gentis totiu the gouernment ouer the church of the whole nation meaning Asia Titus was Bishop of Creta not of one citie only but of the whole Is e. So sayeth Chrysostome in his cōmentaries vpon the fyrst to Titus And Lyra Erasmns Pellican and others write that S. Paule made him Archbishop of Creta And Illyricus calleth him and Timothie multarum Ecclesiarū Episcopos Bishops of many churches S. Iohn as Eusebius reporteth lib. 3. cap. 23. after his returne from Pathm s did gouerne the Churches in Asia and ordeyned Ministers and Bishops Iames was made by the Apostles Bishop of Ierusalem and the gouernment of that churche was cōmitted to him Euseb. lib. 2. cap. 23. The. 33. or as some counte 34. of the Canons attributed to the Apostles apointeth one head and chiefe Bishop to be in euery nation or countrey to whom all other Byshops of the same nation must be subiecte Dionysius Areopagita was Archbishop of Athens appoynted thervnto by S. Paul as Volusianus a godlie and learned writer testifieth Polycarpus was by S. Iohn made
at the other I will not denie but he may be more edisyed at the simple reading than at the Sermon vnlesse it be in this and such like case I knowe not howe it may be true that M. Doctor sayth And indeede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordeyned to be the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest and meetest meanes which a man shoulde not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynt of him Io. Whitgifte As absurde as it is Musculus doth affirme it in his common places titu de Lectio sacrae script And as his saying I report it in mine answere beléeuing it to be moste true And therefore if your malice had not béene wholy bent agaynst me you should haue ascribed this absurditie to him or at least haue deuided it betwixt vs and so my backe should haue béene somwhat eased of the burden of absurdityas wherewith you would so gladly ouercharge me God worketh by reading the Scriptures as well as he doth by preaching and God vseth reading as a meanes aswell as preaching vseth that also as a meanes to call men to saluation Read Augustine lib. con 8. cap. 12. and you shall sée that God vsed reading as a meanes to conuert him And surely I maruell that you professing the Gospell can without trembling and shaking speake so basely of reading the worde of God being a thing so precious and so singular a meanes of our saluation but for the thing it selfe I referre it to the iudgement Reading somtune preuayleth more than preaching of those that haue not drunke so déepely of the cuppe of contention as you haue whither it may not sometymes so happen Or whither they whiche are quietly affected may not receyue more edifying by the simple reading of the Sciptures which they vnderstande than by the Sermons of diuerse contentious preachers whose hote and bitter inuectiues which sauour more of malice than of loue of contention than of peace the frute of the Gospell may bréede in the heartes of those that are studious of peace and quietly minded some suspition of the truth of their doctrine Or lastly whither some misdoubting the truth of the doctrine of the preachers of the Gospell and conceyuing a preindicate opinion agaynst them as diuerse Papistes doe may not be more edifyed by diligent reading of the Scriptures of whose authoritie they doe not doubt than by hearing of the Preacher whose wordes they doe eyther mistrust or not regarde by reason of theyr preiudicate opinion agaynst all Preachers and in the ende perceyuing by reading of the Scriptures the truth of their doctrine may bée thereby established which were not by the Sermons once mooued And for this cause Christ sayde Iohn 5. Searche the Iohn 5. Scriptures c. That Reading is Preaching Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 13. And nowe I thinke by this tyme M. Doctor knoweth his answere to his seconde question which is whether reading be not preaching ▪ And if this be not sufficient that I haue sayde I woulde aske gladly of him (*) A mere cauil whether all Readers be Preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayth that reading is preaching then that is lykewise true that all those which reade preache and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach bycause he is able to reade Io. Whitgifte I know an answere in déede such as it is but it is much more fit for a Papist or Atheist than for a professor of the Gospell If preaching be taken generally for euerie How reading is preaching kinde of instructing or teaching by the worde of God as it is ad Rom. 10. then is reading preaching But if it be taken in the vsuall signification for him that interpreteth the Scripture teacheth and exhorteth in the Congregation by discoursing vpon the scriptures and applying them as occasion serueth then it is not so and yet no lesse profitable to edifying to such as vnderstande that which is read than preaching To reade the Scriptures is not to preach or teache in respect of him that readeth but in the respect of Gods spirite whiche thereby worketh knowledge in the heart of the Reader or Hearer For we must thinke it to be true that Cyprian sayth VVhen we reade the Scripture God speaketh vnto vs and in this sense a childe that can read may preach that is God by his worde read of a childe may and doth oftentimes teach vs. And hereof we haue God be thanked many examples in Englande of those which béeing not able to reade themselues by the meanes of their children reading to them at home receyue instruction and edifying And if you had béene disposed to haue called to remembrance that which you say you haue so diligently read in M. Foxe you might haue knowne that diuerse in the beginning came to the light of the Gospell onely by reading and hearing the newe Testament in English read which I am sure you will confesse to haue bene to them a preaching and instruction Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 159. Sect. 1. But where doth the booke make the ministerie an office of reading onely Or what contrarietie is there betwixt reading and preaching Nay what difference is there betwixt them If a man A written sermon is preaching shoulde write his Sermon and reade it in the booke to his flocke doth he not preach Is there no Sermons but such as be sayde without booke I thinke to preache the Gospell is to teache and instruct the people in fayth and good maners be it by wryting reading or speaking without booke and I am sure the spirite of God doth worke as effectually by the one of these wayes as it doth by the other Did not Saint Paule preache to the Romaines when he writte to them Was not the reading of Deuteronomie to the people a preaching 2. Reg. 23. Will you so scornefully and so contemptuously speake of the reading of Scripture beeing a thing so frutefull and necessarie T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 18. And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. Page he asketh whether if a man wryte his Sermon and after reade it in the booke that reading be preaching Here is hard shift what if I graunted that it is preaching yet I denie that therefore he that readeth an other mannes Sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as beeing able to preache for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memorie can not doe it but by reading that whiche hee hath written It is not conuenient that hee shoulde bee a Minister in the Churche For Saint Paule doth not require onely that the 1. 〈◊〉 3. Bishoppe
gubernatores tum ciuiles tum ecclesiastic s The gouernours of the Church as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall Howsoeuer it is the place béeing doubtful it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors as perpetuall Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition In steade of these Seniors in r Rom. 1 8 euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and yet we maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 115. Sect. vlt. You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. He that exhorteth let hym vvayte on exhortation he that distribute h let him do it vvith simplicitie he that ruleth vvith diligence he that shevveth mercy vvith cherefulnesse To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither or to what purpose you should alleage that place it neyther proueth that in euery Churche there was Elders neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor and of the Doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Church wherof one was occupied in the gouernment onely the other in prouiding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places as M. Caluine M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easily appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to dally with the scriptures to make them a nose of waxe in alleaging of these to proue the Elders that al men might vnderstande what terrible outc ies he maketh as in this place so almost in al other when there is cause that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth Io. Whitgifte The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y e former M. Caluine Caluine sayth that these words of the Apostle Qui pr est in diligentia he that ruleth with diligence may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus to all kind of rule or gouernment And M. Martyr vpon the same words sayth that he doubteth not multas fuisse in Martyr Beza ecclesia praefecturas that there were many gouernments in the Church M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros yet he addeth qui ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant which also sometime dyd preach the word M. Bucer sayth playnely Est praeterea qui praeest qui pascendi regendi ecclesiā mun accepit Bucer Furthermore he doth rule whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor not any vnpreaching Senior But what kinde of argument call you this he that ruleth must do it with diligence Ergo there must be Seniors in euery parish You should rather conclude thus therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment muste doe the same diligently and carefully So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors yet do they The place Rom. 12. is generall think y t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates gouernours therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors And M. Beza séemeth by y e name of Seniors to vnderstād the ministers of the word that is Bishops pastors and there is no doubt but that y e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt which y ◠Apostle hath generally spoken of al for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures to abuse them as the Papists do yea to make thē a nose of waxe as I haue sayd before Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to write not so muche to pro e that there were Seniors in euery Churche which is a thing confessed as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation esides his confession I neede haue no more but his owne reason For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church ▪ was in that tun wherin there were no christian Magistrates and when there was perfecution but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution and no christiā Magistrates therfore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation Io. Whitgifte If this be a good argument S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth he that uleth must doe it diligently Ergo euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Seniors Or this the Apostle 1. Cor. 12. sayth that God hath placed in his Churche gouernours Ergo euery parish must haue a Seigniorie Or this Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors therefore in euery Church there must be a company of Seniors to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted If I say these be good sure argumēts then haue I corruptly interpreted those places But if these arguments be not sounde if they haue no sequele in them if they be agaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates and long before especially for suche Elders as you meane if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God and finally if it bring in confusion then haue I truely interpreted those places and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche I saye still neyther is that the questiō for I aske y ◠question of your Seniors not of Ministers whome I call Seniors neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish there was suche a Seigniorie but in euery chiefe Citie nor that it was at all tymes in persecution and where there was no Christian Magistrate but ometimes neyther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times but that it may be And therefore you had done well if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes for all my graunte ¶ VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the seconde
especially séeing that Ambrose Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie and that making nothing for your purpose but agaynst you rather bicause it establisheth Collegiate Churches which you would gladly throwe downe then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches immodest words obscure I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely as proueth that which I alleage him for Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose for if you remember your selfe you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue that there was sometime a Seigniorie but yet dissolued and abrogated before his time If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this then in déede you may say that eyther I am abused or desire to abuse other But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose then why do you falsly charge me or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Ambrose for if you can if you can not then temper your immoderate spéeches frame them according to the truthe If Ambrose so misliked y e abrogating of this Seigniorie why did he not labour to restore it agayne surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie he béeing so godly and zelous a Bishop would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it but it is euident by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. Now that I haue shewed the place I will say no more I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as this order is such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches both in time of peace and in time of persecution and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace than in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince than vnder a tyrant why rather nowe than in the Apostles tymes that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without Io. Whitgifte It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it or no for as it nothing hindreth my purpose so winneth it no credite vnto yours And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned and the principall offices of charitie much better exercised by the ciuil Magistrate than by these Seniors and séeing that this kinde of gouernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered séeing also that it bringeth in confusion derogateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed yet is there no cause why it should nowe or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes be of necessitie reteyned Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. And so also is answered the thirde question that for so muche as they were Churche officers a The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase for it pro ueth nothing in question and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God and such as watched ouer the soules of men a Heb. 13. that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons Io. Whitgifte M. Beza in an Epistle that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza Hel tia speaking of the Seigniorie sayth that there must be a great consideration had that Princes and noble men and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche be chosen to be of the Seigniorie and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiasticall persons and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men in déede those that be called Presbyteri in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments And M. Caluine Institut cap. 8. sect 52. Caluine sayth that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde His words be these Habebant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium qui pastores erant Doctores nam apud populū munus docendi exhortandi corrigendi quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit OMNES obibant for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors which were Pastors and teachers for they dyd all exercise among the people the offyce of teaching exhorting and correcting which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men gentlemen marchauntmen husbandmen handycraftesmen as Taylors Shomakers Carpenters c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Admonition Then the sentence was tempred according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousnesse of the fact Nowe on the one 〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement or else fauour affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Churche is committed into one mans hands whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert than to ouerthrow the fayth pietie of a zelous and godly companie for suche maner of men in deede (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. Pag. 131. 132. Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. You say all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church is committed vnto one mans hands and for the proofe of this you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts whiche places beeing examined let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes and not of suche as be open and knowne to others For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad publikely reprehended before the partie offending be in this order