the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
meaning thereof from your Church and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you yet ye set light thereby and all because your Church cannot erre and you expound them otherwise Therefore there is by your doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon but the exposition of the gouernours in the Church Aunswere me directly vnto this were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes Pa. The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once and the Church of God did euer condemne them Pro. But tell me how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false the one side commeth and they say thus saith the Lord no saith the other side that is false thus saith the Lord quite contrary to the other and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church taking part with them against the true Prophet Where was then your golden rule which ye would haue the common sort to measure their faith by I beleeue as the Church beleeueth I cannot iudge I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures Pa. Proue this which you haue sayd it is an easie matter to affirme and you are ready to doe that but your proofes come slowly Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets against the true Prophet Pro. They come a little faster then you would gladly haue them or else you would not be so calme if there were but a little matter of colour against vs for want of proofe you would set vp your bristles by and by and you would crowe but when the matter brought out doth choke ye then ye say there is nothing brought ye bid me proue that whē there were false Prophets and that sundry against one they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side Reade Ieremias the Prophet ye shall find the false Prophets against him and the Priests also and euen as you say against Luther and other which imbrace the holy Gospell they be heretikes the Pope cannot erre so say they for themselues against Ieremias Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor the counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophete Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests Iere. 1. Princes and Prophets and gaue eare to Ieremias apostats Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him that he should haue the people the Priests and Princes against him Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expressed Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest which was appointed chiefe in the house of God did smite Ieremias and put him in the stockes when hee heard him prophesie here was a right Pope a stoute Bishop that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes This thing is set foorth in sundry places of the Prophets how the Priests the false Prophetes were linked together against the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets and people lay hold on Ieremias Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death for the Priests Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes that hee was worthy of death Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of the Priestes and the Prophets Also long before the time of Ieremias Ezechiel the Lord complayned of the Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse For thus he saith by Mica Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes the Priests teach for reward and the Prophets do prophesie for money Behold also what God complaineth against the Priests and Prophetes euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie Sopha 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people committed many transgressions according to all the abhominations of the heathen and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem how God sent vnto them his Prophetes but they would not heare them See then if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple vnto which he had made so glorious promises and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped shall we now tie him to that chaire from which there haue come the most horrible villanies against God almost that euer were committed in the world shall we say that the most pure most holy God hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes and abominations Pa. Ye take great paines to small profit for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built ye haue shewed how the Priestes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by but this conclusion of yours doth not follow because the corruption of maners and withstanding the true Prophets did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised for if any did forsake it they were indeed Apostats for whē they were euen at the worst Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded This must needes be so for otherwise how should that saying of Christ Math. 18. dic ecclesiae tell the Church be a perpetuall rule to all the people if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ Here therefore I say still ye be heretikes and apostats insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church is no excuse at all for will ye forsake your mother because she wanteth perfect beauty or because there is some deformity in her the abuses are to be reformed the thing must not be destroyed I would wish ye therfore to returne and to submit your selues againe and not to cast away your soules for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church Pro. The breath of your mouth is very strong when as with one blast ye are able to ouerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God But ye deceiue your selfe greatly for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed you make your reason after this maner when the Priests were
Saint Iohn saith to all the Christians 1. Iohn 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God By your saying the people should not be able to trie them and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them Pa. What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter and how pretily ye can shift but I wil lay open your subtiltie To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached you alledge the saying of Christ My sheepe heare my voyce c. I pray ye Sir if a man should demand of you whether he meaneth that this shall be immediatly or not and whether when he saith they shal be all taught of God doth he exclude the ministery of men or not I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vtter his doctrine Ye will also say that although God teach yet he doth it by the ministery of men Then I answer that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope who is their great shepheard vnder Christ God doth teach them by him they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination of themselues they cannot iudge but they must doe it by him he must tell them which is the woolfe and which is the false Prophet they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit or which spirit is of God but as he doth direct them And for this cause we say still that ye haue not the true Catholike faith nor the scriptures on your side nor the true sense because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them Pro. All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate immediate But I pray ye Sir how doth this hang together the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men therefore the way to know it is by men God teacheth by men therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men or if it be so must this needs follow that the Pope his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed This is a strange thing Christ Iesus S. Paule S. Peter S. Iohn others do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them as you say is to hang vpon the Pope yet none of all these or any other hath so much as once noted it or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be safe in so extreame danger Pa. There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so for they taught them this thing or how can you tell they did not they might though it be not written is all written which they did teach Pro. Here is mighty strong geare this were able to set vp a Pope if he were thrown down to reuiue him againe if he were hanged No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell the people that the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē because there was no need so long as they liued this were somwhat if they had told only of the false teachers of their time but when they foretel the great dangers mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same this were very absurd Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus that he did know that after his departure there shold enter in grieuous wolues not sparing the flock there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things and draw disciples after thē yet he speaketh of no remedy but that which was banished in your Church namely careful diligēt teaching for he saith therfore watch be mindful c. S. Peter saith as there were in times past false prophets amōg the people so shal there be false teachers amōg you 2. Pet. 2. and afterward he sheweth this remedy not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire or successor but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes and by the Apostles of Christ Saint Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. little children it is the last houre ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come I say there are already many Antichristes in the world and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger but saith he you haue receiued an annointing what from the Pope or his greasie oyle no but from the holy one and know all things Againe ye neede not saith he that any man teach ye but as the annoynting do teach ye Christ Iesus foretelleth Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets and do such wonders that if it were possible euen the elect should be deceiued but that as his words do most plainely shew is vnpossible and why doth he say because I will leaue a vicar and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe not so but because God hath chosen them for he doth keepe them Iohn 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand He saith in another place Beware of false Prophetes which come vnto you in shéepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues and whereby shall men know them Math. 7. He sayeth by their fruits But how know we whether he did tell them so or not he might though it be not written alacke alacke Pa. I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cōmitted to writing but let that go it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue which haue denied the faith and despise the Catholike Church Pro. The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions which S. Peter did not put in writing but he hath whosoeuer doth not beleeue these hath denied the faith dispiseth the Catholike Church This is not your best way your best way is to stand to this that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God But I am content to let this go also and to returne to that which we had in hand and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine I will demaund a question or two at your hands Was there not a Church in the world before the cōming of Christ Pa. Who doth deny that the Iewes were the Church and people of God Pro. Then tell me further whether had they the word of God or not to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon Pa. They had the bookes of Moses they had the bookes of the Prophets they were bidden to heare them Pro. Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto