The wordes are thus to bee read Bowe at his footestoole that is at the Arke and Mercie-seat for there hee hath made a promise of his presence the words therefore say not bow to the Arke but to God at the Arke The first reason by him proposed is this Psalme 98. Cast dovvne your selues before his sootesâ—oole vvhich vvas the Arke novv if the Arke vvere to be vvorshipped because it represented Gods foot-stoole much more may the Image be vvorshipped M. Perkins ansvvereth that the vvords must be englished thus Boâ— at or before the Arke notto the Arke but to God before the Arke Reply If it were so yet must they admit that wee must kneele at or before Images so we kneele to honour or pray to God against which some of their Preachers do crielike mad-men but the Hebreâ— phrase carryeth that wee must kneele to the arke as they who be skâ—lfull in the language do know and that the arke was worshipped of the Israelites is otherwise very euident for first none but the high Priest might come into the place where it was and it was carried before the campewith great solemnitie to search out a reasting place for the whole host And when they were to sight against the Philistins * they had great confidence in the presence of the arke and cap. 6,50000 of the Bethsamites were slaine for seeing the arke and Oza vvas by God smitten to death for touching the arke Doth not all this conuince in vvhat reuerence the arke vvas had euen by Gods owne testimonie speaker A. W. Your first reason to prooue the worshipping of Images is this If the Arke were to be worshipped because it represented Gods footstoole much more may the Image be worshipped But the Arke was therefore to be worshipped Therefore much more may the Image be worshipped I denie your whole Antecedent first the consequence of your proposition For it doth not follow that we may worship Images deuised by men to represent God because we may worship the Arke where God himselfe promised his presence and which he did appoint as an assurance of his presence If you can shew vs the like promise to your Images you say somewhat else nothing Your Assumption also is false The Arke was not to be worshipped To your proofe Master Perkins answers truly that the Psalme doth not commaund worshipping of the Arke but worship before the Arke You replie first that therefore it is lawfull to kneele before Images I answere your consequence is false because your Images are your owne wicked deuices and haue no promise of Gods presence therefore it is senselesnes to kneele before them not madnes to crie out against such follie Your second replie is that the Hebrew phrase carrieth it that we must kneele to the Arke as the skilfull in that language know First remember that these are Authors in the ayre as you answered about that place of Daniel Secondly know that they that are skilfull say otherwise What say you to the Chaldee Paraphrast who expounds it Worship in the house of his Sanctuarie and yet he keepes the proposition that is in the Hebrew So doth the Latin translation in the same Psalme where the same proposition is vsed worship in his holy mountaine the Chaldee hath in the mountaine of the house of his Sanctuarie the Greeke not much vnlike In or toward his holy hill The same seemes to haue been Theodorets iudgement of the place in question His footstoole was sometimes thought to be the Temple at Ierusalem but now the Churches which are ouer all the earth and Sea wherein wee worship the most holy God Of the same opinion is Vatablus Cast downe your selues before his footstoole that is as hee expounds himselfe in his note there In the Temple or before the Arke in which God exhibited his presence So doth Lyra interpret it who was a Iew borne and a Christian by profession worship his footstole that is before his footstoole The ordinarie and Interlinear glosses expound it out of the Fathers of Christs manhood to be worshipped by reason of the hypostatical vnion of it with the Godhead what is that to the worshipping of Images For the further auowing of that translation we haue also R. Dauid Kimchis authoritie Lastly you bring diuers proofes that the Arke was had in great reuerence all needlesse for who denies it Was there not great reason to esteeme highly of that whereby God was extraordinarily present with the Iewes as with no people nor in any place of the world beside What then was it therefore worshipped by the Priest when he went in once a yeere where it was Did the people worship it when it was carried before them As for that confidence the Iewes put in it they got little by it because they superstitiously abused it against Gods commandement putting trust in the presence of it abroad when it should haue been in the Tabernacle where God had promised his presence with it Was this worship to the Arke which the Lord deliuered into the hands of the Philistins Neither were those 50070. Bethsamites slaine for not worshipping it but for presuming to looke into it and Vzzah for touching it not because he did not worship it speaker D. B. P. To this may be added the authoritie of S. Ierom vvho doth teach that it vvas the more vvorshipped for the Cherubines and pictures of angels that vvere erected at the endes of it vvhereby he declareth that he thought Images vvorthie of religious vvorship speaker A. W. Of Ieroms 17. Epistle alleaged by Master Perkins to proue that Rome is Babylon you answere thus Good sir if S. Ierome had meant that that Epistle should haue had his authoritie he would haue set it out in his owne name which seeing he thought it not expedient set the authoritie of it aside and vrge his reasons if you thinke it worth your labour and you shall be answered These your owne words shall serne in steed of answere But for the satisfying of all men I will set downe Ieromes words that they may see with what care and truth you cite the testimonies of the ancient writers The Iewes saith Ierome in former times worshipped the Holy of Holies because there were the Cherubins and the Propitiatorie and the Arke of the Testament Manna Aarons Rod and the golden Altar Doth Ierome teach in these words that the Arke was the more worshipped for the Cherubins and pictures of Angels that were erected at the end of it First he makes no mention of any pictures of Angels but onely of the Cherubins Secondly he speakes not of worshipping the Arke but the Holy of Holies because of the things that were in it Thirdly he makes the Propitiatorie Manna Aarons Rod and the golden Altar causes of that worship as well as the Cherubins Lastly in the words following he counts the Sepulchre of our Lord more worthie of worship
his Maiesties gouernment with persecution and that of mens studies with persecuting heauily the sincere professors of the onely true Catholike faith with molesting grieuously great numbers of most ciuill biects with mingling his gouernment with bitter stormes of persecution to threaten him with feare of rebellion or treason Indeede I must needes say you vnfold your selfe perhaps more than you would For whereas your desire is to lie hid vnder the cloake of commending his Maiestie for exceeding mildnes clemencie affabilitie c. before you are aware the truth of your opinion breakes out and bewraies it selfe to all the world speaker D. B. P. Finally for a proofe of my sinceritie affection and dutifull loue towards your Maiestie this may I iustly say that in time of vncertaine fortune when assured friends are most certainely tried I both suffered disgrace and hinderance for it being stiled in Print A Scotist in faction therein farther employing my pen in Atvvo-solde discourse which I hope hath been presented to the view of your Maiestie the one containing a defence of your Highnes honour the other of your title and interest of the Crowne of England And if then my zeale and loue of truth and obligation to your Maiestie drew me out of the compasse of mine owne profession to treate of law courses I trust your benigne Grace will now licence me out of the same fountaine of â—â—ruencie and like zeale vnto Gods tâ—uth no lesse respecting your Maiesties eternall honour and heauenly inheritance something to say in matters of diuinitie hauing been the best part of my studie for more then thrise seuer yeares speaker A. W. The late quarrels betwixt the professed and secret traitors the Iesuites and Priests haue made all men of any iudgement able to discerne what disgraces and hinderances either part hath by other when both parts can so easily and suddenly agree with the good liking of your lay-Papists The best seruice you doe his Maiestie in this book is that you confesse so plainly that both his honour and his title to the Crowne of England were not onely called into question but iniured and denied by your Popish saction And yet this intelligence you giue him is no newes for it was discouered before out of a letter of Parsons in the Iesuites defence against the Secular Priests speaker D. B. P. Whereinto I may conueniently enter with that golden sentence with which your Maiestie began the Conference holden in Iaâ—…y last betweene certaine of your â—…cts about some controueâ—sie 〈◊〉 Râ—ligion A Ioue principium conformable to that in holy writ I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aâ—d Omega that is The begianing and the end saith our Lord And â—…ying it vnto Princes I may be bolde to say that nothing is more expedient and necessarie for Kings nothing more honourable and of beâ—… assurance for their estate then that in the very beginning of their â—aâ—gne they take especiall oâ—der that the supreaâ—ne and most puâ—ssaâ—t Mâ—narch of heauen and earth be purely and vprightly serued aswell in their owne exemplar liues as throughout their Dominions For of Almighty God his meere bouncde and great grace they receiue and holde their Dâ—adems and â—…cely Seepâ—ers and cannot possesse and enioy them their mighty Forces and most prudent Counsailes notwithstanding one day longer then during his dâ—…e will and pleasure Which that wise King witnesseth speaking in the person of Gods wisedome Per me Reges regnant By me Kings doe raigne And Nabuchodonozer sometime King of Babilon was turned out to grase with beasts for seuen yeeres and made to know and confesse that the highest doth commaâ—…d ouer the kingdomes of men and disposeth of them as pleaseth his dâ—uine wisedome But I neede not stand vpon this poynt being to well knowne and duely confessed by your Maâ—esâ—â—e speaker A. W. His Maiestie wisely and fitly applied the saying of the Poet to signifie that whatsoeuer we vndertake must be begun in the name of God with desire and trust of his blessing But what conformitie hath that of Christ either with the Poets sentence or his Maiesties purpose or your owne application Our Sauiour truly professes of himselfe that he is Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending which is which was and which is to come the first and the last that is eternall Neither the Poet nor the King our of the Pâ—â—t intend to speake any thing of Gods eternitie Neither can you reasonably apply that speech of our Sauiour to secure Princes in their estate if they begin their gouernment with Prouiding for obedience to God by true religion But how little agreement there is betwixt Christs speech and the Poets it may easily appeare by this that if his Maiestie in stead of Abs loue Principiuâ— should haue said I am Alpha and Omega or Christ is Alpha and Omega no man could haue vnderstood his meaning by his words speaker D. B. P. But â—â—thence there be in this our most miserable age great diuersities of Religions and but one onely wherewith God is truely serued and pleased as saith the Apostle One body one Spirit as you are called into one hope of your vocation one Lord one Faith one Baptisme My most humble suite and supplication to your high Maiestie is that you to your eternall good will imbraâ—e maintaine and set forth that onely true Catholike and Apostolike faith wherein all your most royall progenitors liued and died or if you cannot be wonne so soone to alter that Religion in which it hath been your misfortune to haue been bred and brought vp That then in the meane season you will not so heauily persecute the sincere professors of the other speaker A. W. It is an easie matter to perswade his Maiestie to maintaine and set foorth the onely true Catholike and Apostolike faith that is to doe that he doth alreadie But the Romane religion hath neuer an one of these properties as it will appeare in the suruay of your reformation Diuers of his Maiesties progenitors liued and died in the profession of true religion many yeeres before a number of your Popish heresies were hatcht Neither doth hee now maintainc it because by Gods speciall prouidence he hath been brought vp in it but for that as it appeares in the â— Confession of Scotland after long and due examination his Maiestie is thoroughly resolued in the truth by the word and spirit of God Who would thinke that hee which a little before iustlie commended his Maiestie for exceeding clemencie mildnes louingnes and affablenes should now challenge him for persecuting heauily the sincere professors of the onely true Catholike and Apostolike faith speaker D. B. P. Very many vrgent and forâ—ible reasons might be produced in fauour and deâ—eâ—ce of the Catholike Romane Religion whereof diuers haue bin in most learned treatises tendered to your Maiestie already Wherefore I will onely touch three two of them chosen out of the subiect of this booke The third selected from a sentence of
substance or that they may be reunited BEfore I am to deliuer my opinion concerning this point I had neede to be enformed what this Author meaneth by these words our Religion For there being great diuersities of pretended Religions currant in the world all contrary to the Church of Rome how can I certainlie know whether of them hâ— professeth Wherefore good Sir may it please you to declare what Religion you vnderstand when you say our Religion Is it that which Martin Luther a licentious Fryer first preached in Germany or rather that which the martiall Minister Zwinglius contended with sword and shield to set vp in Switzerland or perhaps that which John Caluin by sedition wrought into Geneua expelling the lawfull Magistrate thence and by the ayde of Beza a dissolute turnecoate spread into many corners of France Or if by your Religion you meane only to comprehend the Religion now practised in England yet are you farther to shewe whether you vnderstand that established by the State or the other more refined as it is thought by many and embraced by them who are called Puritanes for of their leauen sauoureth that position of yours That the article of Christs descent into bell crept into the Creede by negligence and some other such like in this booke These principall diuisions of the new Gospell to omit sundrie sub-diuisions being famous and receiued of diuers in England according to each mans phantasie it is meete you expresse whether of them you speake of that it may be dulie considered how the Romane Religion and it agree and what vnion may be made betweene them speaker A. W. Is this no superfluitie of words What reasonable man can doubt that Master Perkins by our religion meanes as you say afterward the religion now professed in England For your word practised is too skant for doctrine some points whereof fall not into practise If it be contrarie to the Church of Rome it is easily answered without any such inquirie that contraries cannot be vnited If difference in some points make a diuers religion how many kindes are there amongst you Papists let the Franciscans and Dominicans goe with all the rest of former times what say you to these maine points Iustification in Pighius Predestination in Bellarmine Free will in Bartholomew Camerarius three pillers of your Church The difference betwixt Protestants and Puritanes as you call them is not in any essentiall point of faith but in matters of outward gouernment and ceremonies speaker W. P. And this shall appeare if we doe but a little consider how they of the Romane Church haue rased the foundation For though in words they honour Christ yet in deede they turne him to a Pseudo-Christ and an Idoll of their owne braine speaker D. B. P. Now if you meane the hotchpotâ—h and confusion of all these new Religions together as by the opposition here vnto the Church of Rome and by the artiâ—les following may be gathered then I am cleere for you in this that there can be no more concord betweene these two Religions then there is betweene light and darknes faith and insidelâ—tie Christ and Beliall Notwithstanding I thinke that the reason by you produced to proue the impossibilitie of this vnion is of no value to â—it that they of the Romane Church â—aue razed the foundation for though in vvords they honour Christ yet indeede they turne him into a Pseudochrist and an â—doll of their 〈◊〉 braine A very sufficient cause no doubt of eternall breach and diuision if it could be verisied But how proue you that we Romane Catholikes who beleeue Iesus Christ to be perfect God and perfect Man and the onely Redeemer of Mankinde make him a false Christ and an Idoll or before you goe about to proue it tell me I pray you how this can well stand with your owne definition of a reformed Catholike in your Preface There you affirme him to be a Catholike reformed to your liking that holdeth the same necessarie heads of Religion vvith the Romane Church Now can there be any more necessarie head of Religion than to haue a right faith in Christ can any other foundation be laid besides Iesus Christ If then your reformed Catholike must agree with the Romane Church in neâ—essarie heads of Religion as you hold he must either the Romane Church â—…th not the foundation and maketh not Christ a Pseudochrist as you say here or else you teach your disâ—iples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of Religion with it speaker A. W. It is no confusion to take from seuerall men seuerall opinions agreeing with the word of God Luther hauing been a long time kept in the darknes of Pâ—…pcrie could not by and by discerne the truth in all points Was not your superstition both for doctrine and ceremonics patcht vp peece by peece as it could procure allowance from time to time Yea was not the truth of Religion made manifest by little and little in the Church as God gaue learned men occasion of studie and a blessing in their studie against the poyson of Heretikes Such hath been and such alwaies will be the course of the Gospell that truth will be more and more knowne as there is more opposition against it and as men bestow more paines in reading praying and studying To denie the reason or argument is to denie the consequence not the antecedent but you grant the consequence viz. That razing the foundation and turning Christ into a Pseudochrist is a sufficient cause of eternall breach onely you denie the antecedent that the Church of Rome doth so At the least as well as you prooue that the Church of England holding the same opinions of Christ haue no faith no religion no Church no Christ c. But let vs see how you disprooue the antecedent If your reformed Catholike say you must agree with the Romane Church in many heads of religion either the Romane Church razeth not the foundation or else you teach your disciples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of religion with it But he must agree with it in many heads of religion Therfore either the Romane Church razeth not the foundation or you teach your disciples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of religion with it I denie the consequence of your proposition because by paring of the errors which Master Perkins requires he shall keepe himselfe from razing the foundation though he hold the same necessary heads for example he must holde with you that a true ChristiaÌ„ must haue a right faith in Christ but he must reiect the faith you professe as not right Again he must hold that no other foundation can be laid but Iesus Christ not that you lay him aright for the foundation speaker W. P. They call him our Lord but with this condition that the Seruant of Seruants of this Lord may change and adde to his commaundements hauing so great a power that he
commendation for discerning so much of the truth so may they bee excused if seeing Rome in their time a Christian famous Church they did not take it to be the seate of Antichrist But Hierome seemes rather to make against you because euen then he calles it Babylon in respect of Antichrist to come Your second and third reasons are of no more force For S. Iohn as I haue shewed spake not of Rome as it was then but as it was to be afterward and now hath been almost one thousand yeeres euen in temporall authoritie to which one of the Popes swords belongs Master Perkins rightly applies to Rome the words that fifteene hundred yeeres since were spoken of her as she is now the Popes Legates were nothing inferiour either for authoritie or exactions to the Romane Proconsuls But as it was foretold in a mysterie vnder a colour of spirituall gouernment ouerruling both in Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill matters he that remembers the bloodie massacre of so many thousands in a few daies not many yeeres agoe in France shall see that the Church of Rome shed blood enough at that one time to make her drunke as long as she shal continue yet what a small part was it of that which from time to time she hath bezeled in This section is nothing to purpose For who denies that there were as well Christians as Heathen in Rome in the Emperours daies The distinction Master Perkins denies is that S. Iohn speakes of Rome as it was vnder the Emperours and not of it as it hath been and is vnder the Popes which the authors you alleage meddle not with speaker W. P. S. Iohn writ a prophecie and therefore might well vse allegories besides he describes his Babylon so plaine that your selues are forced to confesse he meanes Rome by it S. Peter deales as an Apostle not as a Prophet and no where giues any inckling that by Babylon Rome should be meant Eusebius sets it not downe as his owne opinion but only recites it out of Papias from whom also it is apparant that Hâ—â—rome had it and in whom Eusebius saith there were many fabulous matters But let the distinction be as they suppose yet by their leaues hereby the whore must be vnderstood not onely heathenish Rome but euen the Papal or Ecclesiasticall Rome for the holy Ghost saith plainly that she hath made all nations drunke with the wine of the wrath of her fornication yea it is added that she hath committed fornication with the Kings of the earth wherby is signified that she hath indeauoured to intangle all the nations of the earth in her spirituall idolatrie and to bring the Kings of the earth to her religion Which thing cannot be vnderstood of the heathenish Rome for that left all the Kings of the earth to their owne religion and idolatrie neither did they labour to bring forraine Kings to worshippe their Gods Againe it is said that the ten hornes which be ten Kings shall hate the whâ—re and make her desâ—late and naked which must not be vnderstood of heathenish Rome but of Popish Rome for whereas in former times all the Kings of the earth did submitte themselues to the whore now they haue begun to withdraw themselues and make her desolate as the King of Bohemia Denmarke Germanie England Scotland and other parts therefore this distinction is also friuolous They further alledge that the whore of Babylon is drunke with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs shed not in Rome but in Ierusalem where the Lord was crucified and the two Prophets being slaine lie there in the streets But this place is not meant of Hierusalem as Hierome hath fully taught but it may well be vnderstood of Rome Christ was crucified there either because the authority whereby he was crucified was from the Romane Empire or else because Christ in his members was and is there daily crucified though locally in his owne person he was crucified at Ierusalem And thus notwithstanding all which hath bin said wee must here by the whore vnderstand the state of the Empire of Rome not so much vnder the heathen Emperors as vnder the head thereof the Pope speaker D. B. P. Well M. Perkins is content in fine to allowe of that distinction of Heathenish and Ecclesiasticall Rome which before he esteemed â—o foolish And then will prooue that not the Heathenish but Ecclesiâ—stâ—caâ—◠〈◊〉 is resembled to the purpell Harlot See what confidence this man hath in his owne shutle wit that now will prooue this and shortly after disproue it but let vs giue him the hearing The holy Ghost sayth plainely that she hath made all the vvorld drunke vâ—â—th the vvine of the vvâ—ath of her fornication and yet addeth that she hath committed fornication vvith the Kings of the earth But this cannot be vnderstood of heathenish Rome for that left all the Kingdomes of the earth vnto their owne Religion and Idolatry and did not labour to bring them to worship the Roman Gods Ergo it must be vnderstood of Papall Râ—me I answere The Roman Empire being the head and principall promoter of all kinde of Idolatrie and maintaining and aduancing them that most vehemently opposed themselues against the Christian Religion who with any shew of reason can denie but they chiefly coÌ„mitted spirituall fornication with the Kings of the earth if not by persvvading them to forsake their false Gods vvhich the Pagan Romans vvorship asvvell as they yet by encouraging and commanding them to perseuere in that filthie Idolatrie and to resist and oppresse the Christians vvheresoeuer Neither is that true that the Roman Emperours did not labour to bring other Nations to vvorship nevv Gods vvhen Nero and Domitian would be worshipped as Gods and for feare of Adrian one Antinous his seruant was worshipped as a God of all men as Iustinus Martyr testifieth These words of the text then agree very well with the Emperours who both were Idolaters and the chiefe Patrons of Idolatry but can in no sort be applied to the Romane Church which was thâ—n as the Protestants cannot deny a pure Virgin and most free from all spirituall fornication But that it is now become Idolatrous M. Perkins doth proue by his second reason gathered also I warrant you right learnedly out of the text it selfe where it is said that the ten Hornes which signifie ten Kings shall hate the whore and make her desolate and naked which as he saith must be vnderstood of Popish Rome For whereas in former times all the Kings of the earth did submitte themselues to the whore now they haue begunne to withdraw themselues and to make her desolate as the Kings of Bohemia Denmarke Germanie England Scotland and other parts In these his words is committed a most foule fault by grosse ouersight and ignorance in the very text What be England Scotland Denmarke as for Bohemia ruled by a Catholike Emperour it must be omitted as also many states of Germanie be these
and most holy Fathers doe teach concerning ioyning with the Church and Pope of Rome from whose societie Protestants labour tooth and nayle to withdraw vs. And because of this we must treate more amply in the question of supremacie I will vse here their authoritie only whom M. Perkins citeth against vs. S. Bernard is cited already S. Ireneus Scholler of S. Polycarpe and he of S. Iohn the Euangelist of the Church of Rome writeth thus To this Church by reason of her more mightie principalitie it is necessary that euery Church that is the saithfull on all sides to condescend and agree in and by which alwaies the tradition of the Aposiles hath been preserued of them that be round about her Saint Jerome writing to Damasus Pope of Rome saith I following none as chiefest but Christ doe in participation ioyne with thy blessednesse that is with the chayre of Peter I know the Church to be builded vpon that Rocke VVhosoeuer doth eate the Paschall Lambe out of this house is a prophane fellovv he that is not found vvithin the Arke of Noe shall when the floudes arise perish And a litle after knovv not Vitalis I refuse Meletius I take no notice of Paulinus he that gathereth not vvith thee scattereth that is he that is not vvith Christ is vvith Antichrist Marke and embrace this most learned Doctors iudgement of ioyning vvith the See of Rome in all doubtfull questions he vvould not trust to his ovvne vvit and skill vvhich vvere singular nor thought it safe to relie vpon his learned and vvise neighbours he durst not set vp his rest vvith his ovvne Bishop Paulinus vvho vvas a man of no meane marke but the Patriarke of Antioch but made his assured stay vpon the See of Rome as vpon an vnmoueable Rocke vvith vvhich saith he if vve doe not communicate in faith and Sacraments vve are but profane men voide of all Religion In a vvord vve belong not to Christ but be of Antichrists traine See hovv flat contrarie this most holy ancient Father is to M. Perkins M. Perkins vvould make vs of Antichrists band because vve cleaue vnto the Bishop of Rome Whereas Saint Hierome holdeth all to appertaine to Antichrist who be not fast lincked in matters of Religion with the Pope and See of Rome And so to conclude with this point euerie true Catholike must say with Saint Ambrose I desire in all things to follovv the Church of Rome And thus much of his Prologue speaker A. W. It is a weake fortifying of Popish doctrine to alleage a few sentences written one thousand or more yeeres since in approbation of the Church of Rome as it was then Irenaeus Hierome Ambrose would haue all men ioyne with the Church of Rome which florished in their daies therefore no man may separate from it in these our daies Who sees not the feeblenes of this consequence And yet this is all the force that can be in the reason till they haue prooued that the Church of Rome either was then or is not now the Church of Antichrist If that principalitie Irenaeus speaks of were in the Church of Rome by any right of authoritie from God how should the same Irenaeus be excused who reprooues Victor B. of Rome for taking vpon him to excommunicate some of the Easterne Churches about obseruing of Easter If it be in respect of the truth which then florished at Rome no doubt all men must cleaue vnto it as farre as it cleaues to the truth of God Hierome a Romane and at that time a yong man liuing in Syria being pressed by an Arian Bishop to allow by subscription that which might tend to the countenancing of Arianisme writes to Damasus his owne Bishop for his aduice in the matter But that he did not in respect of his place as if hee could not erre because he was Bishop of Rome for Liberius the very next Bishop before Damasus by Hieroms owne confession had subscribed to Arianisme but in regard of his iudgement which was sound against that heresie so that whosoeuer in that question gathered not with him scattered and held with Antichrist against Christ. Those all things that Ambrose speaks of are according to the place alleaged by you to be restrained to the Liturgie and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome Wherein though Ambrose professe himselfe desirous to follow the Church note by the way that the Church of Rome is taken as a particular Diocesan Church such as the Church of Millan also was at that time and not as the vniuersall Catholike Church yet he did not so follow it because reason led him another way his words are these In all things I desire to follow the Romane Church but yet we also being men haue vnderstanding therefore that which is otherwhere better obserued we also rightly keepe We follow the Apostle Peter himselfe we sticke vnto his deuotion c. Out of which speech of Ambrose these points are to be obserued First that the vnderstanding of Christian men is to direct them wherein they are to follow the Church of Rome wherein to leaue it Secondly that some other Churches might and did better obserue diuers things than the Church of Rome did Thirdly that the Church of Rome did not obserue that which the Apostle Peter at least in Ambrose his iudgement had deuoutly performed Thus we see what helpe there is in the ancient writers to free the Pope and Church of Rome that now are from being the very Antichrist foretold of in the Reuelation speaker W. P. Now touching the dutie of separation I meane to speake at large not standing so much to prooue the same because it is euident by the text as to shew the manner and measure of making this separation and therein I will handle two things First how far forth we may ioyne with them in the matter of religion secondly how far forth and wherein we must dissent and depart from them And for this cause I meane to make choice of certaine points of religion and to speake of them in as good order as I can shewing in each of them our consent and difference and the rather because some harpe much vpon this string that a Vnion may be made of our two religions and that we differ not in substance but in points of circumstance speaker D. B. P. Afterward he taketh vpon him to prescribe and shew vs how far forth we may ioyne with the Church of Rome by proposing many points in controuersie betweene vs and them and in each shewing in what points we consent togither and in what we differ I meane by Gods grace to follow him step by step although he hath made many a disorderly one aswell to discouer his deceits and to disproue their errors as also to establish the Catholike Doctrine the which I will endeuour to performe by the helpe of God with all simplicitie of language and with as much breuity as
beleeue So that your discourse of the Ministers knowledge and the mans election is nothing to Master Perkins answere speaker W. P. It is answered that this applying of the Gospell is vpon condition of mens faith and repentance and that men are deceiued touching their owne faith and repentance and therefore faile in applying the word vnto themselues Answ. Indeed this manner of applying is false in all hypocrites heretikes and vnrepentant persons for they applie vpon carnall presumption and not by faith Neuerthelesse it is true in all the elect hauing the spirit of grace and prayer for when God in the ministerie of the word being his owne ordinance saith Seeke ye my face the heart of Gods children truly answereth O Lord I will seeke thy face And when God shall say Thou art my people they shall say againe The Lord is my God speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins then flieth from the assurance of the Minister and leaues him to speake at â—andon as the blind man casts his clubbe and attributeth all this assurance vnto the partie himselfe who hearing in Gods word Seeke yee my face in his hart answereth Lord I vvill seeke thy face And then hearing God say Thou art my people saith againe The Lord is my God And then loe without all doubt he hath assurance of his saluation Would ye not thinke that this were rather some seely old Womans dreame then a discourse of a learned Man How know you honest man that those words of God spoken by the Prophet 2000. yeares past to the people of Israell are directed to you Mine owne hart good Sir tells me so How dare you build vpon the perswasion of your owne hart any such assurance When as in holy writ it is recorded VVicked is the hart of man and who shall know it Are you ignorant how Saul before he was S. Paul being an Israelite to whom those words appertained perswading himselfe to be very assured of his faith was notwithstanding fouly deceiued and why may not you farre more vnskilfull then he be in like manner abused Moreouer suppose that this motion commeth of the holy Ghost and that he truly saith The Lord is God how long knoweth he that he shall be able to say so truly When our Sauiour Christ Iesus assureth vs that many be called but few of them are chosen to life euerlasting How knoweth he then assuredly that he being once called is of the predestinate speaker A. W. Your question in skorne to the honest man is nothing to Master Perkins answere he doth not say that those places of the Prophet belong to euery man but that all the elect yeeld obedience to God in the ministerie of the word beleeuing as he commands them and so vpon the knowledge of their beleefe come to the assurance of their saluation As for the doubt that a man may be called and be none of the predestinate he that truly beleeues the Scripture casts it quite away hauing learned of God that whosoeuer beleeues shall be saued which could not bee true if it were possible that a man should beleeue and not be predestinate And it is a truth of God that he which beleeueth knoweth that he beleeueth and he that truly repenteth knoweth that he repenteth vnlesse it be in the beginning of our conuersion and in the time of distresse and temptation Otherwise what thankfulnes can there be for grace receiued speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins saith that he who beleeueth knoweth that he beleeueth Be it so if he beleeue aright and meddle no further then with those things which be comprehended within the bounds of faith But that the certainty of saluation is to be beleeued is not to be begged but proued being the maine question he saith further that he who truly repenteth knoweth that he repenteth he knoweth indeed by many probable coniectures but not by certainly of faith as witâ—â—lâ—â—h that holy person If God come to me as he dot◠〈◊〉 all repentant sinneâ—â— I shall not see him and if he depart away from me I shall not vnderstand it Which is sufficient to make him thankefull yea iâ— he receiued no grace at all yet were he much beholding vnto God who offered him his grace and would haue freely bestowed it vpon him if it had not been through his owne default And thus our first Argument stands in his full strength and vertue that no man can assure himselfe by faith of his saluation because there is no word of God that warranteth him so to doe speaker A. W. If he that beleeues aright know he beleeues and withall is sure that no man doth beleeue but he that is predestinate because that whosoeuer beleeues shall be saued and none shall be saued but they that are predestinate it is out of doubt that assurance of saluation by faith may and must be had Now why or how should it be more impossible to know we repent truly then that wee beleeue truly especially since that and this necessarily and certainly goe together Euery man that hath true faith and no man but he that hath true faith doth repent truly That of Iob is not spoken of mans repentance but of his inabilitie to comprehend the workes of God as the whole discourse shewes neither are the words If ye come to me but as also Arias Montanus and Pagnine expound them Behold he passeth by Vatablus vnderstands the place of not knowing God by his workes Master Perkins asks what thankfulnes there can be for grace receiued if a man cannot know that he hath receiued any As for the coniecture you speake of it is likelier to breed feare than thankfulnes being so vncertaine or at the least thankfulnes by halues because wee can be but halfe perswaded that we haue receiued grace speaker W. P. Obiect II. It is no article of the Creede that a man must beleeue his owne saluation and therfore no man is bound thereto Ans. By this argument it appeares plainly that the very pillars of the Church of Rome doe not vnderstand the Creed for in that which is commonly called the Apostles Creed euery article implieth in it this particular faith And in the first article I beleeue in God are three things contained the first to beleeue that there is a God the second to beleeue the same God is my God the third to put my confidence in him for my saluation and so much containe the other articles which are concerning God When Thomas said Ioh. 20. 20. My God Christ answered Thou hast beleeued Thomas Where we see that to beleeue in God is to beleeue God to be our God And Psal. 78. 22. to beleeue in God and to put trust in him are al one They beleeued not in God and trusted not in his helpe speaker A. W. I aâ—mit all this and adde more that M. Perkins be no loÌ„ger ignorant 〈◊〉 Catholike knowledge of the creede that we must also loue him wiâ—â— a 〈◊〉
onely but of indisposition also which is a reason to make euery one despaire in regard of himselfe though in respect of Gods mercie he may conceiue some hope For if no man should find fauour but he that is disposed or fitted for it perfectly sure wee must needes despaire of attaining to that fitnes how can we in respect of that looke for saluation the worthines which is in them that shall come to heauen is both in Christ by whom they are worthie as members of his mysticall bodie and also in themselues who departing out of this world are made perfectly righteous by inherent righteousnes which before was begun in them speaker D. B. P. If God bidde vs pray that we fall not into temptation and promiseth an issue forth then the assurance depends vpon prayer and not vpon our former faith What then if wee doe not pray so as we should may not the enemy then not only wound but kill vs to it cannot be denied and therein as in diuers other workes of pietie many haue been too too slacke as the pitifull fall of thousands haue taught vs. speaker A. W. Master Perkins doth not say that prayer doth assure vs of perseuerance but that wee resting vpon God by faith and calling on him are vpheld from falling away not because our prayer is for the manner and measure such as it ought to be for all should be perfect but because God-hath promised to keepe his children and that he may fulfill his promise stirres them vp to pray according to his will though with many imperfections speaker D. B. P. Oh saith M. Perkins it cannot be that he vvhich vvas once a member of Christ can euer after be vvholy cut off O shamelesse assertion and contrary to many plaine texts and examples of holy Scriptures Doth not our Sauiour say in expresse words That euery braunch in me not bearing fâ—… he vvill take it avvay And againe If any abide not in me he shall be cast forth as the branch and shall vvither and be cast into the fire which doth demonstrate that some which were members of Christ be wholie cut off and that for euer Are we not by faith made members of Christ by our aduersaries owne confession and doth not our blessed Sauiour say expounding the Parable of the sower That the seed vvhich fell vpon the rocke doth signifie them vvho vvith ioy receiue the vvord and these saith he haue no roote but for a time they beleeue and in time of temptation reuolt Doth not S. Paul in expresse tearmes say That some hauing faith and good conscience expelling good conscience haue made shipvvrack of their faith of whom were by name Hymenaeus and Alexander The like That in the last daies some should reuolt from the faith Againe That some for couetousnes sake had erred from the saith speaker A. W. Doe you call that a shamelesse assertion which is so oft auowed by our Sauiour himselfe He that drinkes of that water that I shall giue him shall neuer thirst but it shall be in him a well of water springing vp to euerlasting life Againe My sheepe heare my voyce and I know them and they follow me and I giue them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall any plucke them out of my hand And in another place I am the bread of life he that comes to me shall not hunger and he that beleeues in me shall neuer thirst This is the will of him that sent me that euery one that sees the Sonne and beleeues in him should haue euerlasting life and I will raise him vp at the last day Now the places you alleage prooue no more but that if any man fall away from Christ he shall perish and that some may forsake the truth of doctrine or hauing had some shew of a iustifying faith for a time may afterward manifest themselues not to haue beleeued in Christ to iustification Of the former kinde are those two places of Iohn of the latter all the rest speaker D. B. P. And for example amongst other take Saul the first King of Israell who was at his election as the holy Ghost witnesseth so good a man that there vvas no better then he in Jsraell and yet became reprobate as is in the Scripture signified The like is probable of Salomon and in the new Testament of Judas the traytour and Simon Magus whom S. Luke saith that he also himselfe beleeued and after became an Arch heretike and so died the like almost may be verified of all Arch-heretikes who before they fell were of the faithfull speaker A. W. That you say of Saul is vtterly false for the Scripture neither in that text nor any where else speakes so of him And indeed how could it Samuel being then aliue so holie and good a man But the place you meane is in the ninth chapter where Samuel saith to him whose shall all the best things of Israel be as your translation reades it That is saith your glosse the dignitie of the King who may take the best things of the people subiect to him The goodly things saith the 70. All that is to be desired Pagnin What soeuer is to be desired in Israel saith Vatablus and in his marginall note All the desire of Israel as if he should say Thou shalt be King of Israel And this agrees both with the word and with the context Care not for the asses saith Samuel for they are found and besides whose shall all the wealth of Israel be Thus haue you graced Saul and belied the holy Ghost so haue you disgraced Salomon whom the holy Ghost honored with speaking by his mouth and writing by his penne the great mysteries of God Euery Papist hath not power like the Pope to make whom he will a Saint and whom he list a reprobate Iudas Simon Hymeneus Alexander and the rest beleeued the truth of the Gospell at least in part for a time but neuer any one of these had at any time true iustifying faith to rest vpon Christ for saluation speaker D. B. P. But what neede we further proofe of this matter seeing that this is cosen-german if not the very same with one of that infamous heretike Iouinians erronious articles condemned and registred by S. Hierome and S. Augustine who held that iust men after Baptisme could not sin and if they did sinne they were indeed washed with water but neuer receiued the spirit of grace his ground was that he which had once receiued the spirit of grace could not sinne after which is iust M. Perkins proposition so that to vphold an errour he falleth into an old condemned heresie speaker A. W. We denie not that a man may sinne yea we confesse that the very best men doe sinne but wee say the Lord by his spirit keepes them that are iustified from falling away from Christ either finally or totally He that is
the translation let any man iudge that either vnderstands the Hebrew Chaldee and Greeke or will looke vpon other interpretations of your owne men For the sense our interpretation is confirmed by the course of the text that a man cannot know by the outward things that befall him here whether he be loued of God or hated because these happen alike both to the elect and to the reprobate Hee that will reade the expositions of learned men and weigh the likelihood of their reasons shall see that the place is not cleere enough to prooue a controuersie speaker D. B. P. An other plaine testimony is taken out of S. Paul where he sheweth that it is not in vs to iudge of our owne iustice but we must â—aue to God the iudgement of it these be the words I am not guiltie in conscience of any thing but I am not iustified herein but he that iudgeth me is our Lord therefore iudge not before the time vntill our Lord doe come vvho also vvill lighten the hidden things of darknes and vvill manifest the counsell of the hart and then the praise shall be to euery man of God So that before Gods iudgement by S. Pauls testimony men may not assure themselues of their owne iustice much lesse of their saluation how innocent soeuer they find themselues in their owne consciences See vpon this place S. Ambrose S. Basill Thâ—doret on this place who all agree that men may haue secret faults which God only seeth and therefore they must liue in feare and alwaies pray to be deliuered from them speaker A. W. If all you say be granted it is nothing to vs for wee doe not fetch our assurance from the perfection of our righteousnes but from the truth of our faith Neither denie wee that a man hath many secret slips knowne to God onely but we say he may be assured of his saluation for all these vpon which it doth not depend Wee acknowledge with those worthie men that we must call vpon God for pardon of our secret sinnes with feare and humblenes of minde speaker D. B. P. For the rest let S. Augustines testimony whom our aduersaries acknovvledge to be the most diligent and faithfull register of all antiquitie be sufficient This most iudicious and holy Father thus defineth this matter As long as vve liue here vve our selues cannot iudge of our selues I doe not say vvhat vve shall be to morrovv but vvhat vve are to day And yet more directly Albeit holy men are certaine of the revvard of their perseuerance yet of their ovvne perseuerance they are found vncertaine For vvhat man can knovv that he shall perseuere and hold on in the action and encrease of iustice vntill the end vnlesse by some reuelation he be assured of it from him vvho of his iust but secret iudgement doth not enforme all men of this matter but deceiueth none So no iust man is assured of his saluation by his ordinary faith by extraordinary reuelation some man may be assured the rest are not Which is iust the Catholike sentence speaker A. W. Austin speakes not there of the assurance of saluation but perswades men to giue no credit to flatterers because we our selues cannot iudge of our selues and indeede wee are oftentimes faultie in those things wherein wee suppose we haue done very well In the other place he denies that knowledge which is wholy without doubting and to which wee grant few or none attaine ordinarily speaker D. B. P. And because S. Bernard is by our aduersaries cited for them in this point take his testimony in as precise tearmes as any Catholike at this time speaketh Thus he vvriteth VVho can say I am one of the elect I am one of the predestinat to life I am one of the number of the children VVho I say can thus say the Scripture crying out against him A man knovveth not vvhether he be vvorthy of loue or hatred Therefore vve haue no certeinty but the confidence of hope doth comfort vs that vve be not vexed at all with the perplexitie of this doubt The vvord of God according to S. Bernard cryeth out against all them that certeinly assure themselues of their saluation vvhereon then doe they build their faith that beleeue it speaker A. W. Bernard was by profession a member of the Popish Church and therefore against vs his testimonie is nothing but against you it is of great weight For the point in question first he is of opinion in that place by you quoted that a man may know in what estate he is for the present at least in part because God hath giuen certaine manifest signes and tokens of saluation that it cannot be doubted but that he is in the number of the elect in whom those signes shall continue Secondly the reason why he denies the latter is because the signes he speaks of being in outward obedience principally may faile and so breede some cause of doubting The scripture he alleageth for the ground of his vncertaintie hath nothing in it to that purpose speaker D. B. P. If it may be permitted to ioyne moderne opinions vvith auncient bad men vvith good I could proue by the testimony of euery principall sect of this time that all other sectaries vvere deceiued in this their persvvasion of their saluation For both Lutherans Caluinists and Anabaptists to omit the rest doe hold euery one of themselues assured of their saluation and yet each sect holdeth euery one not of his ovvne band assured of damnation so that by the sentence of the Lutherans all Caluinists and Anabaptists are miserably deceiued vvhen they assure themselues of their saluation In like manner if the Anabaptists be true censurers both Lutherans and Caluinists and all other not of their heresie erre fouly vvhen they beare themselues in hand that they shall be saued Certaine it is therefore by the consent of all the vvorld that very many vvho assure themselues of saluation are indeed assured of damnation speaker A. W. How doth your conclusion belong to this question Very many who to assure themselues of saluation are assured of damnation who denies it But the course you take in comming to it is out of the way of truth Let all Anabaptists passe whom we not you haue from time to time confuted till of late you began to tread vpon them when we had beaten them downe Caluinists and Lutherans as you maliciously call them agree in this point for the most part and neither make any question but the other may be saued for all their differences in some opinions but both haue very iust cause to doubt of you who fight against the maine foundation as in the next article speaker D. B. P. With the testimonies of the auncient Doctors for vs I pray thee gentle Reader conferre those vvhich M. Perkins in his sixt reason alleadgeth against vs. First S. Augustine in these vvords Of an euill
former question is on this manner The thing saith hee that maketh vs righteous before God and causeth vs to bee accepted to life euerlasting is remission of sinnes and the habite of inward righteousnes or charitie with the fruites thereof We condesend and graunt that the habite of righteousnesse which wee call sanctification is an excellent gift of God and hath his reward of God and is the matter of our iustification before men because it serueth to declare vs to be reconciled to God and to bee iustified yet wee denie it to bee the thing which maketh vs of sinners to become righteous or iust before God speaker D. B. P. The point of difference is this that the Protestants hold that Christs Passion and obedience imputed vnto vs becommeth our righteousnes for the words of iustice and iustification they seldome vse and not any righteousnes vvhich is in our selues The Cathòlikes affirme that those vertues povvred into our soules speaking of the formall cause of iustification is our iustice and that through that a man is iustified in Gods sight and accepted to life euerlasting Although as you haue seene before vve hold that God of his mecre mercy through the merits of Christ Iesus our Sauiour hath freetie beâ—lovved that iustice on vs. speaker A. W. The word iustification wee vse continually the cauill about our not vsing iustice but righteousnes for our aduantage is sufficiently answered by Doctor Fulke against Gregory Martin and the Rhemists The true reason why our translators chose rather to say righteous and righteousnes than iust and iustice was because the former words are more generall the latter for the most part restrained in common vse to one particular vertue betwixt man and man We denie not that Christians being iustified are truly righteous by inherent righteousnes but that wee are to pleade our owne imperfect righteousnes before God to our iustification speaker D. B. P. Note that M. Perkins comes to short in his second rule vvhen he attributeth the merits of Christs sufferings to obedience vvhereas obedience if it had been vvithout charity vvould haue merited nothing at Gods hands speaker A. W. Master Perkins comes as neere the marke as you acknowledging the loue of Christ in his obedience distinctly both to God and vs. And indeed it were ridiculous to imagine obedience without loue though the Apostle mentions the one without the other speaker W. P. And this is the first point of our disagreement in the matter of iustification which must be marked because if there were no more points of difference betweene vs this one alone were sufficient to keepe vs from vniting of our religions for hereby the Church of Rome doth race the very foundation speaker D. B. P. And vvhereas M. Perkins doth say that therein vve raze the foundation that is as he interpreteth it in his preface vve make Christ a Pseudochrist vve auerre that herein vve doe much more magnifie Christ then they do for they take Christs merits to be so meane that they do but euen serue the turne to deface sinne and make men vvorthie of the ioyes of heauen Nay it doth not serue the turne but onely that God doth not impute sinne vnto vs. We contrarivvise doe so highly esteeme of our Sauiours inestâ—mable merits that vve hold them vvell able to purchase at Gods hands a farre inferiour iustice and such merits as mortall men are capable of and to them doe giue such force and value that they make a man iust before God and vvorthy of the Kingdome of heauen as shall be proued speaker A. W. This slander was answered before We acknowledge the power of Christs death as to iustification for the forgiuenes of sinnes so to sanctification for inherent righteousnes and that such righteousnes as is sufficient to make vs pure and holie in the sight of God though we attaine not to the perfection of it as long as we liue in this mortall bodie speaker D. B. P. Againe they do great iniurie to Gods goodnes wisdome and iustice in their iustification for they teach that inward iustice or sanctification is not necessary to iustification Yea their Ring-leader Luther saith That the iustified can by no sinnes whatsoeuer except he refuse to beleeue lose their saluation Wherein first they make their righteous man Like as our Sauiour speaketh to sepulchers vvhited on the out side with an imputed iustice but within full of iniquitie and disorder Then the wisdome of God must either not discouer this masse of iniquitie or his goodnes abide it or his iustice either wipe it away or punish it But say they he seeth it well enough but couereth it vvith the mantle of Christs righteousnes Why can any thing be hid from his sight it is madnes to thinke it speaker A. W. We doe God no wrong in maintaining his truth that sanctification followes iustification in nature though in time they come together Luther saith as the truth is that he which beleeues shal be saued and that faith is not destroyed by any sinne but infidelitie A man iustified as I haue said often is righteous by inherent righteousnes and therefore not like a whited sepulchre Our corruptions and sins God seeth and mislikes but hauing punisht them in Christ he laies them not to our charge speaker D. B. P. And why doth he not for Christs sake deface it and wipe it cleane away and adorne with his grace that soule whom he for his sonnes sake loueth and make it worthy of his loue and kingdome What is it because Christ hath not deserued it So to say were to derogate from the infnite value of his merits Or is it for that God cannot make such iustice in a pure man as may be worthy of his loue and his kingdome And this were to deny Gods power in a matter that can be done as we confesse that such vertue was in our first Father Adam in state of innocency And M. Perkins seemes to graunt That man in this life at his last gaspe may haue such righteousnes If then we had no other reason for vs but that our iustification doth more exalt the power and goodnesse of God more magnifie the value of Christs merits and brigeth greater dignity vnto men our doctrine were much better to be liked then our aduersaries who cannot alleadge one expresse sentence either out of holy Scriptures or auncient Fathers teaching the imputation of Christs righteousnes vnto vs to be our iustification as shall be seene in the reasons following and doe much abase both Christs merits and Gods power wisdome and goodnes speaker A. W. It is enough for vs to know what God doth without inquiring curiously into the reason of it Yet in this case wee may answere that God doth not make vs perfectly righteous at once that wee may continually depend vpon him and not thinke too highly of our selues as you by reason of that conceit doe ascribing the best part of your second iustification
to the poore they pill them by fines and vnreasonable rents and by vsury and crafty bargaines are not ashamed to cousen their nearest kinne Finally in place of prayer and washing away their owne sins by many bitter teares they sing meerely a Geneua Psalme and raile or heare a railing at our imagined sinnes or pretended errors And so leaue and lay all paine and sorrow vpon Christs shoulders thinking themselues belike to be borne to pleasure and pastime and to make merry in this world speaker A. W. This spitefull and slanderous inuectiue of yours sauouring neither of conscience nor ciuilitie whereby you charge your soueraigne his counsailers nobles gentrie and all that any where in sinceritie professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ with flat Epicurisme I wittingly omit holding it more Christian like to be railed vpon without cause then to raile vpon desert We vse our libertie with moderation how you priests and Iesuits obserue that which feare of damnation hope of reward the lawes of your superiors and your owne vowes bind you to I had rather euery man should iudge according to his knowledge then suspect by my reporting of that which would not seeme very vnlikely The seuenth point Of Traditions speaker W. P. Traditions are doctrines deliuered from hand to hand either by word of mouth or by writing beside the written word of God Our consent Conclus I. Wee hold that the very worde of God hath beene deliuered by tradition For first God reuealed his will to Adam by word of mouth and renewed the same vnto the Patriarkes not by writing but by speech by dreames and other inspirations and thus the worde of God went from man to man for the space of two thousand and foure hundred yeeres vnto the time of Moses who was the first pen-man of holy scripture For as touching the prophesie of Enoch we commonly holde it was not penned by Enoch but by some Iew vnder his name And for the space of this time men worshipped God and helde the articles of their faith by tradition not from men but immediately from God himselfe And the historie of the new testament as some say for eightie yeeres as some others thinke for the space of twenty yeeres and more went from hand to hand by tradition till penned by the Apostles or being penned by others was approoued by them speaker D. B. P. Hitherto we agree but not in this which he interlaceth that in the state of nature euery man was instructed of God immediately in both matters of faith and religion For that God then as euer since vsed the ministerie aswell of good fathers as godly masters as Enoch Noe Abraham and such like to teach their children and seruants the true worship of God and true faith in him otherwise how should the word of God passe by Tradition from Adam to Moses as M. Perkins affirmeth If no child learned any such thing of his Father but was taught immediately from God but M. Perkins seemeth to regard lâ—â—tle such petty contradictions speaker A. W. If you were not more desirous to pick quarrels then to acknowledge truth you would neuer faine such contradictions Master Perkins sayes no such thing as you charge him with but speakes only of the Patriarks by whose ministerie the rest were taught as he shewes otherwhere making it an argument to perswade housholders to the like dutie speaker W. P. Conclus II. We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but either came to vs or to our ancetours onely by tradition As 2. Tim. 3. 20. it is said that Iannes and Iambres were the Magitians that withstood Moses now in the books of the olde testament wee shall not finde them once named and therefore it is like that the Apostle had their names by tradition or by some writings then extant among the Iewes So Hebr. 12. 21. the author of the Epistle recordeth of Moses that when he saw a terrible sight in Mount Sinai he said I tremble and am afraide which words are not to be found in all the bookes of the old testament In the Epistle of Iude mention is made that the Diuell stroue with Michael the Archangell about the bodie of Moses which point as also the former considering it is not to be found in holy writ it seemes the Apostle had it by tradition from the Iewes That the Prophet Esai was killed with a fullers clubbe is receiued for truth but yet not recorded in Scripture and so likewise that the Virgin Mary liued and died a virgin And in Ecclesiasticall writers many worthy sayings of the Apostles and other holy men are recorded and receiued of vs for truth which neuerthelesse are not set downe in the bookes of the olde or new Testament And many things wee holde for truth not written in the worde if they bee not against the word speaker D. B. P. His 2. Conclus We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but came to vs by Tradition but these were not necessary to be beleeued For one example he puts that the blessed Virgin Marie liued and died a Virgin but it is necessary to saluation to beleeue this for Heluidius is esteemed by S. Augustine an Heretike for denying it speaker A. W. Master Perkins saith nothing of the necessitie of beleeuing That point of the virgin Maries perpetuall virginitie we hold to be true but we dare not lay a burthen vpon any mans conscience where the scripture is silent S. Austins iudgement though he were a singular light of the Church is not of waight inough to determine without all warrant of scripture what is heresie and what is not especially since himselfe confesseth that it cannot at all or very hardly be declared by a lawfull definition what makes a man an heretike Besides Austin thus deliuers the matter concerning the Heluidians heresie The Heluidians saith he so gaine said the virginitie of Mary that they confidentlie affirme she had other children after Christ by her husband Ioseph So that it may well be Austin counted them heretikes especially for auouching that peremptorily which they could no way make good by scripture speaker W. P. Conclus III. We hold that the Church of God hath power to prescribe ordinances rules or traditions touching time and place of Gods worship and touching order and comelines to bee vsed in the same and in this regard Paul 1. Cor. 11. 2. commendeth the Church of Corinth for keeping his traditions and Act. 15. the Counceil at lerusalem decreed that the Churches of the Gentiles should abstaine from blood and from things strangled This decree is tearmed a tradition and it was in force among them so long as the offence of the Iewes remained And this kinde of traditions whether made by generall Councels or particular Synods
when Paul taught at Athens some seuenteene or eighteene yeeres after our Lords Ascension whereas the Gospell of S. Matthew as Irenaeus saith was penned when Paul and Peter preached and founded the Church at Rome twentie yeeres or more after the Ascension Neither doth Master Perkins auow this for a truth but sets it down as very likely speaker D. B. P. To the point of the answere that all was written after in some other of his Epistles which before had bin deliuered by word of mouth How proueth M. Perkins that the man hath such confidence in his owne word that he goeth not once about to proue it Good Sir hold you not here that nothing is needfull to be beleeued which is not written in the word shew vs then where it is written in the word that Saint Paul wrote in his later Epistles that which he taught by word of mouth before or else by your owne rule it is not needfull to beleeue it speaker A. W. It is not the answerers dutie as I haue been faine to put you in minde before to prooue his deniall but the repliers to disprooue what he answers But for your satisfaction let me tell you that if these things the Apostle speakes of were matters necessarie to saluation it is prooued that they were written afterward or before in some part of the Scripture because the a Scripture is sufficient to make a man wise to saluation speaker D. B. P. But yet for a more full satisfaction of the indifferent reader I will set downe the opinions of some of the auncientest and best Interpreters of this place of the Apostle that we may see whether they thought that S. Paul committed all to writing and left nothing by Tradition speaker A. W. All this labour might haue been saued vnlesse it were to more purpose For wee say not that the Apostle wrote all things he spake but that all things necessarie to saluation are expresly or by consequence contained in the Scriptures It is out of doubt in my poore opinion that the Apostle preached many things which were not written by him in these two Epistles and those also matters of moment which he wils them to obserue but the question is whether it can be prooued by this text or any other that those matters are not any where recorded in the holy Scriptures and yet are points necessarie to saluation speaker D. B. P. S. Chrysostome in his most learned and eloquent Comentaries vpon this text concludeth thus Hereupon it is manifest that the Apostles deliuered not all in their Epistles but many things also vnvvritten and those things are aswell to be beleeued as the vvritten Oecumenius and Theophylactus vpon that place teach the same speaker A. W. To the testimonie out of Chrysostomes interpretation answere first that Chrysostome saith not they were matters necessarie to saluation Secondly that otherwhere he ties vs to the Scriptures if we will be beleeued in that we deliuer Thirdly that many things may be and are in other parts of the Scripture which are not to bee found in the Epistles Fourthly that it doth not follow the Apostle Paul spake something to the Thessalonians which he wrote not to them therefore the Apostles spake some things which they neuer writ For this place speakes only of S. Pauls doings not of other Apostles Yet I make no questioÌ„ but they also did in like sort but it cannot be certainly concluded from this place Fiftly I grant that all that the Apostles deliuered was to be receiued as true and fit for the Church in those times to which they were deliuered The doctrine of the Gospell is perpetuall matters of circumstance appointed by them for the vse of the Churches perpetually are as well to be obserued as the doctrine if there be any such yea traditions of this nature are equall to things written But here lies the matter we say there are no such traditions And indeed who can thinke that the Apostles would write matters of small importance which were also not to continue perpetually and leaue great and waightie points of faith vnwritten The like answer I make to Oecumenius and Theophylact whereof the one professedly sets downe Chrysostoms opinion the other according to his custome writes him out in this place word for word speaker D. B. P. S. Basil * speaketh thus I hold it Apostolicall to perseuer in Traditions not vvritten for the Apostle â—â—ith I commend you that yee are mindfull of my precepts and do hold the Traditions euen as I deliuered them vnto you and then alleageth this text Hold the Traditions vvhich you haue receiued of me either by VVord or Epistle speaker A. W. Basil saith not that these traditions were matters necessarie to saluation 2. He defines not what these traditions were 3. The consequence is naught The Apostle wils the Thessalonians to keepe things deliuered by mouth therefore the Church is alwaies to keepe some things not written There was a necessitie to lay that charge vpon them for else they had needed to care for no more than was set down in those Epistles 4. The Papists themselues obserue not all the traditions there mentioned as Apostolical by Basil. 5. His iudgement in this case is not much to be accounted of who pronounceth that without those traditions the Gospellis not auaileable and that they are of equall force with the Gospell to pietie speaker D. B. P. S. Iohn Damascen accordeth with the former saying That the Apostles deliuered many things vvithout vvriting S. Paul doth testifie vvhen he writeth Therefore brethren stand and hold the Traditions vvhich haue been taught you either by vvord of mouth or by Epistle These holy and iudicious expositors of S. Paul free from all partiality gather out of this text of his that many things necessary to be beleeued euen vntill their daies remained vnvvritten and were religiously obserued by Tradition which throweth fiat to the ground M. Perkins his false supposition fenced with neither reason nor authority that S Paul put in vvriting aftervvard all that he had first taught by vvord of mouth speaker A. W. Damascen is neither greatly to be respected nor saith any thing but that which I haue answered alreadie and granted in part as nothing to the purpose He might well erre in matter of Tradition that accounts the Apostles Canons set out by Clement Bishop of Rome to be Canonicall scripture which opinion the Papists themselues reiect Master Perkins would gladly haue acknowledged any tradition that could haue been prooued to be Apostolicall namely so farre as it was intended by the Apostles Whatsoeuer they taught that hee would hold to bee the truth of God if they ordained any thing for those times he would confesse it to haue been most fit Did they appoint any custome to bee perpetuall M. Perkins would haue embraced it with both his armes and if occasion had been offered haue maintained it with his life But neither can
opinion We must haue recourse to traditions for the expounding of doubtfull places Therefore the Scripture containes not all doctrine necessarie to saluation I denie the consequence This rather prooues the sufficiencie of the Scripture as being sufficient in it selfe if it be rightly vnderstood Secondly I say there is no such danger as you imagine For though some may abuse it to confirme error yet may their false interpretations be confuted by diligent examination of the text without resting vpon the authoritie of mans interpretation as it appeares manifestly by the courses that the ancient writers tooke for the confuting of all heresies And if without this it could not haue been done what should haue become of the truth before the writings of men were extant in any number For it were ridiculous to imagine that euery particular text was expounded by the Apostles and so left by tradition to the Church Thirdly who shall determine when the time to count ancientnes by ended especially since euery mans writings were new when they were written and cannot grow in truth as they doe in age by continuance we acknowledge them for helpes of interpretation not for warrants speaker D. B. P. Reply To begin with his latter words because I must stand vpon the former Is the Scripture falsely tearmed matter of strife because it is not so of his owne nature why then is Christ truly called the stone of offence or no to them that beleeue not Saint Peter saith Yes No saith M. Perkins because that commeth not of Christ but of themselues But good Sir Christ is truly tearmed a stone of offence and the Scripture matter of strife albeit there be no cause in them of those faults but because it so falleth out by the malice of men The question is not wherefore it is so called but whether it be so called or no truly That which truly is may be so called truly But the Scripture truly is matter of great contention euery obstinate Heretike vnderstanding them according to his owne fantasie and therefore may truly be so tearmed although it be not the cause of contention in it self but written to take away all contention speaker A. W. Master Perkins denies the scripture to be matter of strife and that it may so bee slandered to the disgrace of it as some Papists haue most shamelesly spoken of it to draw people from the reading and louing of it What blasphemies almost haue not your writers vttered against the holy word of God Pighius calls them dumbe iudges and in another place commends the truth and pleasantnes of his speech that compared the scriptures to a nose of waxe Did not Hosius say of Dauids Psalmes we write poems euery body learned and vnlearned speaker D. B. P. But to the capitall matter these three rules gathered out of S. Augustine be good directions wherby sober and sound wits may much profit in study of diuinitie if they neglect not other ordinary helpes of good instructors and learnëd Commentaries But to affirme that euery Christian may by these meanes be inabled to iudge which is the true sense of any doubtfull or hard text is extreame rashnes and meere folly S. Augustine himselfe well conuersant in these rules indued with a most happie wit and yet much bettered with excellent knowledge of all the liberall Sciences yet he hauing most diligently studied the holy Scriptures for more then thirtie yeares with the helpe also of the best Cōmentaries he could get and counsell of the most exquisit yet be ingeniously confesseth That there were more places of Scripture that after all his studie he vnderstood not then vvhich he did vnderstand And shall euery simple man furnished only with M. Perkins his three rules of not twise three lines be able to dissolue any difficulty in them whatsoeuer Why doe the Lutherans to omit all former Heretikes vnderstand them in one sort the Caluinists after another The Anabaptists a third way and so of other sects And in our owne Country how commeth it to passe that the Protestants finde one thing in the holy Scriptures the Puritans almost the cleane contrarie Why I say is there so great bitter and endlesse contention among brothers of the same spirit about the sense and meaning of Gods word If euery one might by the aide of those triuiall notes readily disclose all difficulties and assuredly boult out the certaine truth of them It cannot be but most euident to men of any iudgement that the Scripture it selfe can neuer end any doubtfull controuersie vvithout there be admitted some certaine Iudge to declare what is the true meaning of it And it cannot but redound to the dishonor of our blessed Sauiour to say that he hath left a matter of such importance at randome and hath not prouided for his seruants an assured meane to attaine to the true vnderstanding of it If in matters of Temporall iustice it should be permitted to euerie contentious smatterer in the Law to expound conster the grounds of the Law and statutes as it should seeme fittest in his wisdome and not be bound to stand to the sentence and declaration of the Iudge what iniquity should not be Law or when should there be any end of any hard matter one Lawyer defending one part an other the other One counseller assuring on his certaine knowledge one partie to haue the right another as certainely auerring not that but the contrary to be Law both alledging for their warrant sometexts of Law What end and pacification of the parties could be deuised vnlesse the decision of the controuersie be committed vnto the definitiue sentence of some who should declare whether counsellor had argued iustly and according to the true meaning of the Law none at all but bloody debate and perpetuall conflict each pursuing to get or keepe by force of armes that which his learned counsell auouched to be his owne speaker A. W. No man saith so but that by these a man may iudge which is the truest that is the likeliest interpretation of a doubtfull place But I pray you tell me can you or any Papist by the help of tradition added to the other three rules certainely determine what is the sense of euery hard place of scripture If you can S. Austin by that meanes was likelier to haue it then any of you as he was neerer the Apostles from whom those traditions are said to haue come If you rest vpon the Commentaries of the Auntient what meanes had they to further them in vnderstanding the Scripture that we now want is it not apparant that we haue all they had and their paines and iudgement beside You aske then how chance diuers men vnderstand them diuersly not because they want the tradition you talke of For who knowes not that the Fathers differ exceedingly one from another in their expositions And do all the popish interpretations agree who it should seeme by you haue recourse to that maine help of Tradition He
that lookes into your Commentaries and bookes of controuersies shall finde very diuers and sometimes contrarie expositions Our Sauiour Christ hath prouided sufficientlie for his Church by deliuering in scripture the grounds of religion so plainely some here some there that any reasonable man may with small labour vnderstand them from which they that haue knowledge of the tongues and arts especiallie of Logick and Rhetorick may come to vnderstand the harder places though perhaps not euery one yet at the least so many and such as shall serue to instruct the people of God in the knowledge of his will for the obtaining of euerlasting life speaker D. B. P. To auoid then such garboyles and intestine contention there vvas neuer yet any Law-maker so simple but appointed some gouernour and Iudge who should see the due obseruation of his Lawes and determine all boubts that might arise about the letter and exposition of the Law who is therefore called the quicke and liuely law and shall we Christians thinke that our diuine Lavv-maker who in vvisdome care and prouidence surmounted all others more than the heauens doe the earth hath left his golden Lawes at randome to be interpreted as it should seeme best vnto euery one pretending some hidden knovvledge from we knovv not vvhat spirit no no It cannot be once imagined vvithout too too great derogation vnto the soueraigne prudence of the Son of God speaker A. W. For the auoiding of outward garboiles by force or preaching false doctrine our Sauiour hath appointed principallie the ciuill magistrate secondarily the gouernors of the Churches For the keeping of his children from perishing by error he hath ordeined beside the outward helps of Pastors and Doctors the most certaine direction of his vicegerent the holy spirit who preserues all that are Christs from falling away from the substance and foundation of truth to damnation Not that euery man may take vpon him to interpret scripture vpon pretence of I know not what spirit but that he may assure himselfe of being kept from all error that may ouerthrow his saluation by the direction of Gods spirit vpon whom he calls by prayer and rests by faith to this purpose as I said before sure and who therefore were appointed to be heard without exception This befals not any men nowadayes and therefore none can iustly claime any such credit The auncients that so wrot in this point of S. Pauls going to see Peter haue wholie mistaken the Apostle who denies that of himselfe which they affirme of him For he saith First that he was not an Apostle of men nor by man Secondly that he went vp to Ierusalem not to haue confirmation of his doctrine from them who were no way superior to him but that the Gentiles might know he taught the same things that the other Apostles did If he had done it for his owne assurance he had not beleeued the vision and discredited our Sauiours extraordinarie teaching of him and had taught for a time such things as he was not sure to be the truth of God But if this should be his case he had sinned grieuously in his former preaching and he had wholie ouerthrowne the authoritie of his ministrie which in these two Chapters he labors especially to vphold auouching that he neither learned any doctrine nor receiued any allowance of his authoritie from Iames Cephas and Iohn which were esteemed to be pillers yea he did openly reprooue Peter if not of error in doctrine yet of misbehauiour in his conuersation As for the controuersie of abrogating Moses law it was a case determined by scripture and no man might refuse to obey any one of the Apostles charge coÌ„cerning that point But that the Brethren might haue the better satisfaction it pleased the holy ghost that the Apostles should in a Councell decide the question by ioynt consent of themselues and the brethren there assembled which any one of them might of himselfe haue ended But because diuers parts of the Church were conuerted by diuers Apostles and each Church made most account of their owne Apostle the readiest and safest way was to conclude of the matter by common consultation so afterward in all lawfull Councels the written word was held sufficient for the consutation of the heresies that arose from time to time but for the better stopping of the heretikes mouths and satisfying of all men sometimes the consent of former Diuines Churches and Councels was added in good discretion for mens sake not for the matter which might be and was abundantlie prooued or discouered as occasion serued by the scriptures speaker D. B. P. See Cardinall Bellarmine I vvill only record tvvo noble examples of this recourse vnto Antiquity for the true sense of Gods vvord The first out of the Ecclesiastical History whereof Saint Gregorie Nazianzen and Saint Basil tvvo principall lights of the Greeke Church this is recorded They were both noble men brought vp together at Athens And aftervvard for thirteene yeares space laying aside all profane bookes imployed their studie vvholie in the holy Scriptures The sense and true meaning vvhereof they sought not out of their owne iudgement and presumption as the Protestants both do and teach others to do but out of their Predecessors writings and authoritie namely of such as vvere knovvne to haue receiued the rule of vnderstanding from the Tradition of the Apostles These be the very words speaker A. W. The examples you bring are nothing against vs in this question Nazianzen and Basil sought the true sense of the Scripture not out of their owne iudgement but out of their predecessors writings and authoritie What then Therefore the Scripture containes not all doctrine necessarie to saluation This consequence hath often been disprooued Neither is the Antecedent true if it be generally taken For their owne writings shew euery where that they vsed the help of learning and discourse to finde out the sense of scripture in many places and set downe that in their Commentaries which by study they came to vnderstand If any thing were doubtfull we presume they did as we are sure the Protestants now doe where they had not apparant reason to the contrarie rest vpon the authoritie of their predecessors rather than vpon their owne This reuerence wee giue to the Fathers writings and reade them with as great diligâ—… as they that make more bragges of thâ—ir knowledge in â—heâ— And if that rule which the storie 〈◊〉 and or you name not but it is Austin speakes of 〈◊〉 one of them which we follw in searching out thâ—… 〈◊〉 of the Scripture â—…treate â—ou to make 〈◊〉 to vs and you shall finde that we will take it 〈◊〉 and vse it diligently if we cannot shew you certaine reasons to the contrarie If the rule be to take for truth whatsoeuer the ancients haue deliuered how many things yea contrarie expositions shal we hold for true If you say the rule is to beleeue the ancientest what
shall we doe where they say nothing where their expositions are contraried by those you name and other about their time But this can be no rule of vnderstanding any more of the Scripture than that which they haue expounded which is very little and Origen one of the ancientest and greatest expositors is generally condemned for an Heretike by Epiphanius Ierome Austin and the best writers in Diuinitie Yea Bellarmine sheweth that Origen was seene in hell with Arius and Nestorius and affirmeth that the fift Synod cursed him amongst other Heretikes This rule if it be a rule will serue in very few places of the Scripture speaker D. B. P. The other example shall be the principal pillar of the Laten Church S. Augustine who not only exhorteth and aduiseth vs to follow the decree of the auncient Church if we will not be deceiued with the obscurity of doubtfull questions but plainly affirmeth That he vvould not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church did not moue him vnto it Which words are not to be vnderstood as Caluine would haue them that S. Augustine had not bin at first a Christian if by the authority of the Church he had not bin thereunto perswaded but that when he was a learned and iudicious Doctor and did write against Heretikes euen then he would not beleeue these bookes of the Gospel to haue bin penned by diuine inspiration and no others and this to be the true sense of them vnlesse the Catholike Church famous then for antiquity generality and consent did tell him which and what they were So farre was he oft from trusting to his owne skill and iudgment in this matter which notwithstanding was most excellent This matter is so large that it requireth a whole question but being penned vp within the compasse of one obiection I wil not dwel any longer in it but here fold vp this whole question of Traditions in the authorities of the auncient Fathers out of whom because I haue in answering M. Perkins and else-where as occasion serued cited already many sentences I will here be briefe speaker A. W. Austin wils vs to consult with that Church which the holy Scripture shewes vs to be the Church without any ambiguitie the ancient Church hee names not but by the Church so commended hee vnderstandeth the vniuersall Church as he calles it that is he appeales in the question about Baptisme among the Donatists to the generall practise of the Church in the seuerall congregations which no doubt is of great force to perswade any reasonable man in any matter that cannot be decided by the scripture For in matters of indifferencie the Churches iudgement is a kinde of law so that he which in such things would not be deceiued cannot doe better than to follow it There is no word in that place of Austin to allow your interpretation of that sentence but rather the whole course of the speech makes for Caluin I will propound the matter let any indifferent man iudge Manes or Manicheus in his epistle of the foundation as he termed it called himselfe the Apostle of Christ Austin answeres that he did not beleeue him to be so and then demaunds of the Manichean what course hee would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith Austin you will reade the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manicheus person to me out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me why should I not obey them saith Austin when they will me not to beleeue Manicheus whom I obeyed when they willed me to beleeue the Gospell These are Austins words to which I will adde those that follow afterward that First wee beleeue that which as yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we doe beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming and enlightening our minde within speaker A. W. S. Ignatius the Apostles Scholler doth exhort all Christians To sticke fast vnto the Traditions of the Apostles some of which he committed to writing I shewed before what little credit many of the writings wee haue of Ignatius deserue Eusebius authoritie is more worth but hee is neither quoted nor alleaged truly The former I take to be the Printers fault the latter must needes be yours Ignatius saith Eusebius as he past through Asia vnder guard in euery Citie where he came by preaching and exhortation strengthened the parishes that they should especially take heed of heresies then first newly sprung vp and should cleaue fast to the Tradition of the Apostles which also for more suretie he thought it necessarie for him to write Now the heresies which at that time troubled the Church were those of the Simonians Menadcians Ebionites Nicolaitans Cerinthians Saturninians Basilidians for the refuting whereof the scripture is alsufficient to a reasonable man speaker D. B. P. Polycarpus by the authority of the Apostles words which he had receiued from their owne mouthes confirmed the 〈…〉 truth and ouerthrew the Heretikes speaker A. W. Polycarpus might well refute them by authoritie of the Apostles words which himselfe had heard if without the Scripture they would beleeue him that hee heard them of the Apostles But Eusebius reports of him in Irenaus words that he recited all things in that refutation agreeable to the holy Scriptures It was much for the perswading of the people to whom as Irenaeus saith he spake those things that he could truly say he had heard those things of the Apostles by word of mouth which they might finde written in the Scriptures speaker D. B. P. S. Ireneus who imprinted in his hart Apostolicall Traditions receiued from Policarp saith If there should be a controuersie about any meane question ought vve not to runne vnto the most auncient Churches in the vvhich the Apostles had conuersed and from them take that which is cleere and perspicuous to define the present question For vvhat if the Apostles had not vvritten any thing at all must vve not haue follovved the order of Traditions vvhich they deliuered to them to vvhom they deliuered the Churches speaker A. W. Irenaeus in his epistle to Florinus aboue mentioned saith that he imprinted in his heart the whole carriage and discourse of Polycarpus refuting the Heretikes but of Apostolicall traditions hee speakes neuer a word more than that Polycarpus had heard those things of the Apostles which he then deliuered agreeable to the Scriptures In any such meane question as is not resolued of in Scripture it was fit to haue recourse to those Churches in which the Apostles had liued yea if they had written nothing we must haue repaired to the books of the old Testament the knowne word of God for all matters of substance in things indifferent the iudgment of such