necessitated to approue of all the acts conclusions they make but may dislike them if I see they are not as they ought to be The Corinthians for ought I can see resorted unto the Feasts of idols upon the same ground that the Treat layes downe for hearing They went not of superstition for they were to well instructed and Paul in their person brings forth an excuse for them * 1. Cor. â— 4. We know that an idol is nothing As if they should say we regard not what they have devised their publicke false-state concernes us not for we have left it We are in no Church-communion with their Officers our meaning is not to worship as they doe they intend one thing we another But did this satisfie the Apostle Not in the least For he knew their private differing intention was but a strong fruit of the flesh monstrous presumpt on and a meere delusion For their eating was not to be looked upon and judged after their secret meaning But according to that publicke state where they were And here I desire the Reader to note the difference betweene Paul and the Treat Paul makes the sinne of the Corinthians to be their resorting to an idol-state Not simply their eating for thaâ— they might have done else-where but because it was in by or from an institution of the Devil The Treat layes us downe a contrarie Doctrine and tels us a false Church-state is nothing And Antichristian Officer nothing And that we may lawfully worship God in the one and heare his Word preached by the other provided we be not in Church-communion with the Officer c. Truely the difference here is great For the Treat cleares the Corinthians of the thing for which the Apostle condemnes them But I will not presse this further now Only what Augustine * said of the learned Fathers I may speake of the Treatis in stead of him or rather above him Paul the Apostle commeth to my mind to him I runne to him I appeale from all sorts of writers that thinke otherwise For conclusion if the false state of a Church and Ministerie defile only the members thereof And as for other present worshippers they are blameles Jf this I say be a true saying theÌ„ hath he vainely confind himselfe to the Ministerie of the Church of England For his Position will serve as well to justifie hearing among Papists Arrians Sorcinians Iewes Turkes c. Yea further and to be present at any service or worship they doe For what should hinder but according to this ground a man may lawfully goe to the Temples of the Saracens and he are their Preists considering they doe deliver many materiall truths As that God is true and righteous in all his wayes a â— In Alcho ran Azoara 1. The Creator of all things b The giver of every good gyft c Azoar 14. Ad that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of Mary d Azoar 11. the Messenger of God and a true Prophet e Azoar 7. If any object but they utter many lies and blasphemies I answer the hearing simply of errours corrupts not the Hearer For so he consents not to them in judgement not practice but testifieth against them he delivers his owne soule SECT 5. THE Treatiser layes downe our next OBJECTION thus By this then it seemes a man may be present at any act of Idolatrie and doe as others doe that practice Idolatry yet not approue of it And so the three Nobles in Danial needed not to have put themselves upon such pikes of daunger as they did for not falling downe as others did in the place To this he answereth Treat 1. In preaching of the truths of the Gospell no idolatrous act is performed Answ I perceive it is an easie thing to conquest if begging may procure one that But wee are no such children as to give the cause so away 1. Therefore J say in preaching of the truths of the Gospell viz by a false Minister about which is our dispute an idolatrous act is performed And that the Reader may understand this thing the better He is to consider that divine worship is not to be determined by a particular thing howbeit in it selfe good but as all the essentiall parts belonging thereto whether they are persons or things are kept and observed The Church of Rome in Baptisme useth water and in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper gives bread and otherwhile wine too doth this cleare their administrations of idolatry So runns the Treat reasoning But wee cannot receive it for the Lord never spake so by him J thinke all men doe thinke that Vzziah a 2 Chro. 26. 16. committed an idolatrous act when he invaded the Priests Office But what made it so Tooke he unlawfull incense No. Used he strange fire No. Offered he prohibited sacrifice or upon a wrong Altar No. Where then lay the fault The Scripture tels us it pertained not to him to burne incense unto the Lord but to the Sonnes of Aaron b Ver. 18. To apply this if his act were idolatrous because he wanted a calling howbeit observed many truths of the Law By the same reason the church-Church-acts of Antichristian Ministers are idolatrous Yea as for the truths which they preach this clears their acts no more from idolatry then Vzziahs true incense and Altar quitted him from transgression It is truely said of one c Lavaret in Josh 22. Hom 61. pag 7. We ought not to conclude of an action that it is good because it hath in it some thing which in it selfe is so And this is true as in divine things so in humane too For it is a knowne Tenent of Philosophers d Omne totum suis partibus ordinatur mensuretur determinatur the vvhole is composed measured and determined of all the parts Vnto the constitution of the whole according to Aristotlec is required 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. As Iob f Iob. 24.4 saith vvho can bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane Not one The false Office by our Oppositâ—es is acknowledged to be uncleane Now to deny that their Ministeriall acts are not from thence is against common sence And this further may be amplyfied by that passage in the Prophet g Hag. 2. 12 13. See Iunius on the place where it is shewed that holy things are polluted by touching things uncleane e Arist 12. Met. 3 Lib. de Poet. cap. 7. 3. If in preaching the truth according to the point in question no idolatrous act is performed Then it will follow that a man may remaine a Minister of a false Church all his life time Provided he only teach * Note that such whom they call Lecturers in some places only preach and doe nothing else As I my selfe for some yeares stood soÌ„ the truths of the Gospell Our reason is for in this if he doe no idolatrous act then he sinneth not so Consequently no just cause of
A Stay against Straying OR An Ansâ—â—â— to a Treatise intituled The Laâ—fulnes of hearing the Ministers of the Church of England By JOHN ROBINSON Wherein Is proved the contrarie viz. The unlawfulnes of hearing the Ministers of all false Churches By JOHN CANNE ESA. 57. 14. And he shall say 〈◊〉 ye up 〈…〉 prepare the way take up the 〈…〉 way of my people Printed in the Yeare 1639. ERRATA P. 2 l. 1. read they l. 39. the wanting P. 5 l. 28 r. Calfes P. 11 l. 38 r. Ministry P. 52 l. 6 r. doer P. 57 l. 25 r. Claidon P. 59 l. 11 r. resorted P. 83 l. 16 r. follie P. 86 l. 2 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 P. 88 l. 30 r. dicit P. 120 l. 2 r. streathned For other faults if thou findest any I desire that thy love may be such as to amend them thy selfe To all such as desire to receive and follovv the truth in Love and vvith holines The feeling assurance of life and peace be vvished in Iesus Christ. Men Fathers and Brethren WHAT the Lord saith touching the revealing of the Man of sinne 2 Thes 2 8. and the consuming of him by the brightnes of Christs comming We may see blessed be God for it now accomplished in a great measure For whereas in times past many of the Professors have used both their tongues and pennes to plead for their Parish-Churches Ministerie and Worshipp They now beeing of sounder mindes and better informed let those things fall Insomuch as there are few if any except Formalists and Familists virtutem qui verba putant ut lucum ligna as Horace speaketh and men of corrupt minds vvho suppose that gaine is godlines That will appeare in the defence thereof So that in likelyhood for the time to come there wil be little use for any man to write any more against that Church-state Minister ie Worship Government seeing the falsnes thereof is now seene and acknowledged of the honester and better sort every where Notwithstanding as Pharoah used sundry meanes to stay Israell still in Egypt after he saw them desirous to depart So doth Satan labour what hee can to hold Gods people in spirituall thraldome after he perceives they are willing to obey Gods call and come out of it And that he may bring to passe what he desireth hee useth most effectuall delusions deep deceits Well knowing that the snares which he laid in our forefathers blind and ignorant dayes are now out of date and will not serve the turne to beguile many people withall But he must more transforme himselfe into an Angell of Light I say use more artificiall and craftie devises then formerly he hath done It is said of Praxiteles * Clemen Alex â—in protrept the Painter that hee made the sillie people worship the Image of his strumper under the title and pretence of Venus Now sure I am in those dayes there are some who under the name of Gods vvorship doe cause many people to worship Satan and Antichrist And that men may the easier and sooner be perswaded to it they set forth their lies and vanities in as plausible faire away as can be What man would seeme to deale so plainly as a Iugter Hee will strike up his sleeves and make bare his armes and open his hands and fingers and lay all things before thee and bid thee behold and thou wouldst thinke him to be a man of a faire carriage and not imagine thou couldst possiblie be deceived And yet indeed his whole skill and seeking is nothing else but to deceive and the more simplie and plainly he would seeme to deale the sooner and easier he doth beguile thee For thou shalt thinke thou seest all and seest nothing Feelest it senceablie with thy fingers holdest it fast canst not loose it and yet shall open thy hand and finde nothing The passages of some men in points of Religion are carried much after such a sort For one would thinke to heare the smoothnes of their tale and what integritie and plainnes they doe professe That it is all Gospell they speake and that their cause is cleare and nothing is to be said to the contrarie Notwithstanding when another comes forth and replies against them rips up their tale weighs their reasons discloseth the errour and weaknes of their pleading Men wonder at their owne simplicitie and ignorance and that ever they should be so fond as to beleeve them But seeing I am now to deale only in the point of hearing of false Ministers I will not therefore step out of the beaten way to take in any by-discourse Only I thinke good to certifie that I marvaile that such men who walke not as we doe in Church-way but thinke us to censorious and over just Why they doe not publickly answer our grounds and arguments published to the world and so prove their nevv Principles in as faire and open a way that either we may come to them finding them to walke more agreeable to the Scriptures or shew our reasons to the contrarie For the matter here in controuersie That the Reader may profit the more by it there are 5 things which J desire him to doe 1. When thou settest thy selfe to read set thy selfe as in Gods presence looke on with a single and impartiall eye weigh the arguments well on both sides not by shewes and shifts but by the just Ballance of the incorruptible and unchangable Word of God In judging judge I beseech thee righteous judgment and let the truth be deare to thy soule and doe not side with any side because thy minde gives thee it leadeth most to ease credit profit pleasure or such wordly respects but to that which most tendeth to the glorie of Gods great name the purity of religion and to the most comfort and peace of thy own conscience 2. I would have thee to live by thy owne faith and not build upon anothers fancie it is a great fault in some in that they see nothing but by other mens eyes What this man or such a man holdeth that is their beleife And besides this they can give no more reason for what they hold then the Parrat of her speaking I need not goe farre for proofe The point in controversie cleares it sufficiently For as one ‡ Galen Clas 2. lib. de cuiusq animi peccat notitia at que medela well saith That which a credible person telleth is easilie thought credible by such as are well perswaded of him What hath drawn many unto this practice of Hearing unlawfull Ministers But taking the thing upon trust without due triall and examination Sure I am had men measured it by the Goulden Read of the Scriptures they would soon have perceived that it was never set apart by Gods appointment for the spirituall building 3. Be not wise in thy ovvne eyes But rather deny thy selfe in thy own judgment vvill affection reason c. And be contented to bee guided by the alone Word
of God What is the reason that some men doe seeke after the truth as a coward doth his enemie loath to find him But because loving their owne conceit as Apes their yong ones beyond measure they are not willing to heare of any thing that is said against it We see in nature he that will heare well must stopp his breath It is so in things spirituall if a man will not keep in his breath I meane set aside conceitednes selfe-love be willing to embrace the truth though it be contrarie to that which he formerly held he shall not profit by any thing he heareth or readeth but like Pharoahs◠kine remaine lean ilfavored still Things in the earth will grow as they find roome A Light in the dampes of mines goeth out Thus stands the case with men when any good helpe is pur into their hands If their hearts then be free of selfe-love spirituall pride personall prejudice base desire of vaine glorie and humaine applause c. They will profit by it Contrariwise if their hearts like a deepe hole be full of those filthy Foggs Mists the truth then how clearely soever it shine will dampe quench in them as a light in the mines of the earth 4. Civile dig 4. de legib Senatusque consult Whereas the Civil Lavv saith it is uncivil for any man not having vveighed the vvhole Lavv to give advice or judgement some one parcel of it alone proposed I doe therefore intreat the Reader to forbeare his Censure till he have read the whole booke over And if it be so that he thinkes in some point I have erred as who liveth erreth not I would not have him for such a particular fayling to condemne the whole But let that beare its owne burden and let the rest be received as after due trial the same shal be found agreeable to the Word of God I speake not this as beeing privy to any known crime this way But because I am privy to many known wants great weaknesses in my selfe Besides it is the manner of some if they can spy some thing not well handled in another mans writing to take such advantage as hereby they seeke to bring the whole under reproofe and condemnation Of this shal be all their talke at this they will gird and jest not beeing able in the meane time to take away the force of any one of the maine arguments Neither indeed dare to attempt it but like the snaile keepe in their hornes 5. I thinke good to speake here a little concerning the manner of this answer And that no man may be offended as it I doe professe in the Word of truth that it hath much greeved me all along the discourse to speake so much of the Treatiser whose learning I doe much reverence But the cause beeing the Lords and I seeing how much it lay upon me to take away the Maskes and visards whereby many have been deceived I have done my best to shew the absurdities contradictiōs unskilfulnes daungerousnes of that Treatise And for this not sparing but speaking home I have had some reasons for it as partly here follow 1. Because the Booke containes a pernitious most hurtfull errour and by how much it is caried forth under a colourable shew of a pious and godly practice by so much the more hath it caused many greevious long lasting miseries I know there are many viler errours dayly maintained But if we respect mens walking in the Holie Order of the Gospell this is a main stumbling block barre in the way to it There are some humours which some where placed in the body are quiet and doe little hurt but in other places specially in the passage they doe much mischiefe This errour is as a corrupt humour fallen into the passage of the bodie the Church and therefore it must needs be the more perilous 2. I have spoken the more plainely against it because they say there are manie in England and in other Countries who hold it unlawfull to be present at their divine service and to receive the Sacraments in the Parish-Churches and yet thinke it lawfull to heare the Ministers of that Church Now if such men have as had David tender hearts and hearts that will smite them for a little They will surely come off from this too Seeing I have here proved that the ground they build on is very sand and their pleading for it wants both Religion reason 3. Such a general fame is gone forth of the booke as to be so learnedly absolutely done that it gives all men satisfaction some few riged spirits only excepted that no man would ever be able to make any sound reply to it And for my selfe I have been by name chalenged as it were to answer with much base insulation as if I d urst rather eate my pen then put my pen to write against it And this both before my thoughts were setled on thing and since too Now whether the worke be according to the praise of it let all indifferent men judge 4. Seeing it is given out but me thinkes it should not be true that there are some learned men which plead for the Hearing of false Ministers and upon the Treat grounds I have therefore discovered the sleightnes of it to say no worse the more That such if there be any such may see their errour If not reply if they please when they wil. But for the person or persons that shall reply These 3 things I desire may be considered 1. That they change not the state of the question which is not whether it be lawfull to heare the Ministers of the church of England or of Rome or of any Church But taking it granted a Church to be false the Ministerie Antichristian vvhether Hearing in such a case be lawfull For the question now stands thus no otherwise 2. J exspect an answer in a more honest fairer way then I had the last time namly by a sort of gnats * It hath beē objected as I heare that I should answere dead mē now how so ever it is wel known that my former booke was both finish ed and at the Presse before Dr. Ames death yet say I had writen after his death doe not all mē know that in points of differēces we haue respect to the matter it self no to any person on either side holding the same whom I felt but never saw the Law of God and Light of Nature teacheth Quod tibi vis fieri hoc facias alteri Indeed it is a very unbeseeming thing that men who doe professe Religion learning should disgrace other mens worke behinde their backs shunning in the meane time the open light whereby their deeds might be made manifest As for such Replyers whose arguments are Trencher-squibs and reach only as farr as to the end of the table ‡ Not soe farr as to pen Inke paper to
answer in a faire honest way well they may satisfie men of the same humours But with men fearing God they shall finde no acceptance 3. I exspect plaine dealing Truth is like the glassie sea before the throne which is bright cleare not a clouded bodie or covered with the vailes of mens fond fantisies dreames Let such Childish toyes be kept for Children I require the voyce of the Shepheard read it me out of the Prophets shew it me out of the Psalmes read it out of the Law or Gospell For without this mens judgments have no credit * Ego vocem pastoris requiro lege haec mihi de Prophetis lege de psalmo recita de lege recita de Evangelio recita de Apostolo August de Pastorib cap. 14. Before I end my speach I thinke good to mention you my Brethren with whom I am in speciall communion over vvhom the Holy Ghost hath made me overseer This answer will serve to cleare us from such untrue reports as some malitiously have raysed up as if we were declined from our ancient profession Now what we hold concerning the fallacies fantasies newly broached I desire all the Churches of God here to take knowledge off for our clearing justification I thought when J first began with this Treatise in ending of it to have ended with publick controversies and so have followed a more quiet kind of studie But seeing what the truth suffers in regard of adversaries to it on both sides the love of God constraineth me not to be silent but according to that measure which the Lord hath dealt unto me as my smal abilities are to coÌ„tend for the faith against dexteriores sinesteriores adversaries on both hands to deliver it from the evill report which both have sought to bring upon it And as I have made way now for Gods people to enter into the sweet order of the Gospell covenant oâ— the Lord So J purpose very speedily to publish something for their stay and preservation therein You know my Brethren for the divisions of Reuben are great thoughts of heart Lord how are we spoken of in Gath Askalon for the rents Schismes amongst us In truth I doe not know for what our profession is beholding unto in respect of some men but only to be dispised reproached for their idle giddle courses * Of certaine turbulent spirits it is said Illis quieta movere magna merces videbatur Salust They thought the very disturbaÌ„ce of things quietly established an hyre sufficiently to set them on worke But that the truth of God may no longer suffer but the sinne shame lie where it ought I will by the good hand of God assisting me cleare our Religion as that it leads not to Schismes Church-breakings but such things are rootes of bitternes cursed taires planted sowed by the Envious man in the unsanctified hearts of ungodly people Besides I purpose to shew from the Word of God why men ought to keep themselves with true Churches Howbeit in their opinions very corrupt how Againe how farre particular men have libertie to deale with a Church when they are to rest how a why Moreover how farre a Church-Covenant binds every member of the body to that bodie wherefore there must not be divisions neither from nor in the bodie Againe in case there be a division in Church I wil shew by what signes tokens the Church may be known from the Schismaticks In a word I will shew how farre the Office of the Eldership extendeth in matter of Government and how farre obedience is due unto them of the people These things many more of the like nature you shall shortly see them handled For J purpose to publish a large Treatise of Ecclesiasticall Politie even the whole externall regiment of the Church of God And thus commending you to God J take my leave and will during life alwayes rest Amsterdam Moneth 1. day 28. 1639. Yours in what he can to doe you service I. C. A STAY AGAINST STRAYING OR A Reply to a Treatise published in the defence of hearing Antichristian Ministers SECTION I. An ansvver to the nameles Epistoler HOwsoever the publisher of the Treatise hath thought it fit to conceale his name * it is question vvhetheâ— he vvere not a shamed to put his name to it a. pro 27. 14. yet he hath prefixed to it a large preface wherein with a Loud voyce a he blesseth the authour his friend and the worke it selfe and seekes by manie unchristiaÌ„ speaches to disgrace some men what he can inregard they Zealouslie opposed his new minion Idol Three reasons he giues why after 9. yeares concealement he hath now Published the booke first the large abilities of the author a boue many others c. Answ 1. this ground is sandy and he speakes * Arâ—â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 besides the matter For howsoeuer we confesse that the Author was a godlie learned man notwith standing it followes not that whatsoeuer he said it was therfore true necessarilie to be published Without offence that fitlie may be applyed to him which a learned writer writes of Chrisostome a Calâ—ehil Treatise of the Crosse pag. 26. he was not without his fault his goulden mouth wherin he passed others had otherwhile leaden wordes which yeelded to errour abuse of the time 2. Had the Pistler respected as he should the authors large abilities he would not haue made that booke so commoÌ„ as he hath done to the mans great dishonour When one Pammachius b Ieroms 〈◊〉 Epist ad pamm a Learned Man vnderstood that Hierome had writen some thinges amisse against Iovinian he sought to suppresse all the Copies to haue them concealed till the faults therein were corrected If the Publisher c Let such as had a hand this vvay thinke of Christs vvordeâ— in mat 18. 7. vvoâ— to them by vvhome offences come or others had so don with that first copie which they found in his studie they had don wel manifested good affection to the author but in that they caused so vile a thing to be spread abroad they did ill were his enemies And here I thinke of that sentence in Eccles 10. 1. dead flies cause the oyâ—â—â—eÌ„t of the Apothecary to send foorth a stinking sauour so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisedome and honour I acknowledge to Gods glory and the Treatisers due Prayse that there are in print of his sundry fruitfull treatises d Specially his Iustification of separation a booke so sufficientlie penned as no Adversary hetherto durst reply but certanelie this published since his death is like the wild gourd in the Pottage a cheife cause that the former are the lesse accepted with the godlie It is true therfore as Ferus e ferus Annot. in Ecclesic 10. v. 1. fol. 95. 2â— Chro 19. 12. 1. King â—
28. P. Piâ—s the second u Abbaâ— Vespersâ—nâ—is p. 443. and Others In conclusion then seeing the hearing of vnlawfull Ministers is flat against scripture articles as we haâ—e partly manifested and God willing more will doe we â— must 〈◊〉 as Ierome x in Mat. 23 speakes it though it should in the meane time be iustified and practised by many Churches and people The second thing which he desires may be noted is that this hearing was not in the iudgement of the Church esteemed as a thinge that might not be borne with all Answ 1 The doctrine of the Nicolaitans which was a Trenan l. 1 27. Epiphanc 1. Tom. 1. Eâ—â—â—â— 3. 29. that adulterie and fornication were no sinnes and that men might communicate with the sacrifices of Idolaters in their idol temples was not in the iudgment of the Churches at Pergamos and Thyatira esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall was the same therfore good indeed such a conclusion we must either here gather from his wordes or conclude he knew not well what he wrote 2. To the iudgement of that Church when they wrote to London I may oppose their former and better iudgment ffor with reverence to the Phrase from the beginning this was not soe ffor in their constitution and many yeares after they held * Remember therfore from vvhâ—nce thou art fallen and repent and doe the first vvorkes Reu. 2. 5. hearing of vnlawfull Ministers a very vnlawful practise And so much appeares in sundry passages Published to the world by the Pastor himselfe And for the Readers better satisfaction I thinke it not amisse to sert downe their Owne words Those b Munumission to a manuduction pag. 5. who partake in the worke of Preaching of one sent by the Bp DOE PARTAKE IN WHAT LYETH JN THEM IN THE AVTHORITY OF THE SENDER Againe The authorite of Ministers in their Parishionall Churches c Page 4. may not be by Gods people partaken with no not in actions otherwise Lawfull vnder the paines of Babilons Plagues Againe in another booke d Religious Communion pag. 20. thus they write Let all them that feare God consider that when they come to worship in the Parish Assemblyes they joyne themselues where God hath not joyned them and doe acknowledge that societie for the Church of God and communion of saints which he hath not sanctifyed for that purpose and in saying ourfather with them they acknowledge them for the children of God who in the perswation of their consciences are of their father the divel And in the same booke a little after e pag. 32. Their very administrations by vnlawfull calling are the sinnes and so to PARTAKE WITH THEM IN THEIR ADMINISTRATIONS IS TO PARTAKE WITH THEM IN THEIR SINNES contrary to Timot. 5. 22. Reu. 14. 4. In their answere to Maister Barnerds booke thus they write largesie of this point f Justification of Separat pag. 78. 79. 80. â—e also page 17. 162. 276. 433. Some of which is as followeth But the thing which most grieves Mr. B and at which he hath greatest indignation Pap. 62. is that we will not heare his sermons though he preach nothing but the true word of God And so he desires to heare of vs where the hearing of the true word of God onely preached is sinn and forbidden by Christ or the Prophets or Apostles For answer hereof I would know first whether Mr. B. speaking here and in many other places of the true Word of God do means that God hath a true word and a false word or rather bewray not an accusing conscience that they in England have not the true word truely taught that is in a true office of Ministery Now for the demaund referring the reader for more full satisfaction to that which hath bene published at large by others I do answer that as it was vnlawfull to * Nâ—mb 16. 2. Câ— 26. 1 King 12. communicate with Corah or with vzziah though they offered true sacrifices so IS IT VNLAWFVL TO COMMVNICATE WITH ADEVISED MINSTERY WHAT TRVTH SOEVER IS TAVGHT IN IT Secondly the Lord hath promised no blessing to his word but in his owe ordinance though by his superaboundand mercy he oft tymes vouchsafe that which no man can chalendg by any ordinary promise Thirdly * no man may partake in other mens sinns â—â—m 5. 12. but euery Ministery eyther devised or vsurped is the sinn of him which exerciseth it Rev. 18. 4. And as no good subject would assist or communicate with any person in the administration of civil Justice to the Kings subjects no not though he administred the same never so equally and indifferrently except the same person had commission from the King so to do so neyther ought the subjects of the kingdome of Christ to partake with any person whomsoever in the dispensation of any spirituall thing though in it self never so holy withot sufficient warrant and commission from the most absolute and sovereigne King of his Church Christ Iesus And where Mr. B. speaks of hearing the true word of God only preached he intimates therin that if we would heare him preach it would satisfy him well and so teacheth vs with himselfe and others to make a schisme in the Church in vsing one ordinance and not an other It is all one whether a man communicate with the minister in his pulpit or with the Chauncelor in his consistory both of them minister by the same power of the Bishop The Chauncelor may iudge justly who knowes whither or no the Minister will teach truely And if he doe not but speak the vision of his owne heart what remedy hath the Church or what can they that hear him do May they rebuke him openly according to his sin and so bring him to repentance or must they not beare his errors yea his heresyes also during the pleasure of the Bishops even their Lord his And would you Mr. B. be content your people should heare a masse-Priest or Jesuite though he professed as loud as you do that he would teach the true word of God And think not scorne of the match for you haue the selfe same office with a masse Preist though refyned If he be ordayned by a Bishop though it be the Bishop of Rome he may minister in any Church of England by vertue of that ordination Andbesides masse-Preists preach some and those the mayne truthes and the Ministers in England neither do nor dare preach all no nor some which it may be the others do Is it not better then for the servants of the L. Iesus to exercise and aedify themselves according to the model of grace receaved though in weaker measure then to be so simple as to come to your feasts though you cry never so loud vnto them thinking that because your stoln waters are sweet and your hidden bread pleasant that they have no power to passe by but must needs become your guests And here
or can stand with his will revealed in his Word And so much Zanchy a Lib. 1. de vit ext cult oppos col 504. 505. proves by sundry instances In this regard also hearing false Ministers is supersticious because that thing is honoured and embraced which we finde not in the Scripture to be lawfull and thus an idol is set up tanquam Deus ex parte though not vt Deus simpliciter Thus I have answered the Prefacer Now how he will take it J know not Cotis a Thrasian King breaking some vessels to pieces was asked a reason He answered that he might not be moved to anger at another for doing of it Had the Epist been so wise as to have torne his writing himselfe and so not published it he would not as it may be he now will have been angry at another for laying open the weakenes and vanity of it AN Ansvver unto the Treatise SECT 1. WHen Satan cannot draw men to one extremitie he seekes to bring them unto another The truth of this the Holie Scriptures a 1 Cor. 5. 11. compare with 2 Cor. 2. 6 7. not only shew but sundry examples also prove it in this present age It is true as the Treatiser saith there are many who affecting alienation from others Numb 14 35 45. make their differences as great and their adverse opinion or practice as odious as they can Deut. 1 42. 44. A moat shal be a beame with them a knatt a Camell And hence through want of a take heed they become rejecters of persons and things which they ought not Againe on the other hand there are not a few who desiring liberty and large walking and to have the credit and love of all men use all their witt skill power to have great things I meane evils and sinnes esteemed small things And what is small that nothing That so they may finde a doore of entry to accord and agree with others in unlawfull practises Here therefore is the wisedome of the Saints namely that they shunne both these two extremities Medium tenuere beati And for my part of this later number I shall while I live professe my selfe by Gods grace be to both a Companion guide That is not at any hand to condemne what is to be justified neither to approve that thing which ought to be condemned There are two reasons laid downe by the Treatiser wherefore he penned this discourse 1. For the freeing of his owne conscience 2. The information of other mens Answ 1. J dare not thinke but the Treatiser when he fell first upon this point of Hearing spake as he thought of it and did nothing but what his minde gave him to be right and good But this makes not the thing therefore justifiable For as Martyr saith b Lex Dei is regula conscientiae Loc. Comm. Class 2. cap. 1. pag. 165. The Rule of our Conscience must be the Law of God Gideons Ephod was erected with a well meaning minde but it became a snare c â—udg 8. 27. and a scandall and an occasion of great idolatrie and the overthrow and ruine of his whole familie What hath this hearing been but a snare in Israel an occasion whereby many people have turned aside from the streaght wayes of the Lord. 2. I doe not see what satisfaction any man can have from his writing Seeing he hath not alleadged any one Sentence of Scripture to prove the point in question lawfull Omne quod loquimur debemus affirmare de Scriptur is Sanctis saith Hierom in Psal 98. Tom. 8. But this he hath not done onely he tels us that Hearing is a naturall action Hearing is no Communion c. Now where this so which is not in the sence he intendeth yet it serves not his turne in the least If a Theefe to cleare himselfe should say that he hath not stolen such particulars Yet if he have done other things he is a Theefe notwithstanding So in this case thought to heare false Ministers be not a sinne in such a respect Yet if it be in some other the action is neither Lawfull nor necessarie And here by the way let me speake a word to you whose warrant for your going unto unlawfull Assemblies is only the Treatisers writing This J doe affirme and will make good against all gainsayers that if the thing could be justified yet for his part he hath not proved it so but hath left the point it selfe wholy untouch'd and taken up a by-thing Therefore what Alcibiades said of the Athenians I may well apply to you You take things from other men not by triall but by trust and doe them rather of affection and will then out of any sure knowledge you have of the truth of them That the Treatiser made account to meet with Opposites I marvaile not Onely I marvaile seeing he fore-saw so much that he had not done his worke to some better purpose The first sort of Opposites are such who truly desire Treat and carefully indeavour to have their whole course both in Religion and otherwise framed by the holy and right Rule of Gods Word Answ These cannot chuse but be his Opposites and that for 3. reasons specially 1. Because of his lightnes and inconstancie in the matters of God and for that he seekes to build againe the thing which hee had before destroyed What he hath said against this Hearing the World is not ignorant of and therefore here is a fitt place to lay downe his own words to apply them to himself He sucks up his former breath and eates the words he had formerly uttered as though he had either forgotten what he wrote before or cared not how he crossed himselfe so he might oppose us * Iustificat of Separ p. 276. 2. Because the drift and scope of his writing thwarteth the truth and leadeth unto sinne against the Lord. 3. Causeth troubles in the Churches of God and hinders many from receiving the love of the truth But did the Treatiser thinke that the closest walkers with God would oppose him in this thing Then it must needs follow he made account that the loosest people for judgement practice would be the embracers of it A second sort is of them Treat whose tender and scrupulous conscience makes them fearefull jealous of everything that hath in it the least appearance on shew of evill c. Answ He that will not fall into a deepe pit will not come very neere to it in his travell Gods people saith Theodoret e CoÌ„ment in Thes 5 22. must be so abhorrent from evill both in Doctrine and manners that the shew of both ought to be avoyded And thus the Scriptures f 1 Thes 5 22. Iam. 1 27. Iud. 23. Rev. 16 18. presse and the Saints g Dan. 1 8 Rev. 3 4. Luke 1 5. have practised For his distinction between things onely naturally good in their kinds and use and others morallie
c. I see nothing in it wherefore he should desire the reader to take knowledge of it For as for riches credit of the World and outward peace here instanced as they are good things in themselves so they may be desired and in a right way and course Lawfully sought after For the other namelie Hearing of the Word obedience to the Magistrate c. In these things too we must keepe our selves within the limits and bounds which God hath set us For his phrase of streaning and gooing as neere the Winde as may be J hope he meant no streaning of a good conscience If he did not then his counsell is of no use at all except it could be proued that the Lord requires his people to heare in the way and manner hee pleads for a worke ab Asino lanam not possibly to be done As there are some scrupulous in things amisse touching outward Ordinances and yet faultie otherwayes So I beleeve there are many not scrupulous in things amisse touching outward ordinances and yet in their course of life base and scandalous enought But what of this must not Gods House and Ordinances be deare to our soules because some mens conversation is not according to their profession God forbid For in the holiest Society upon Earth it is possible that there should be wicked persons When there was but 4 in the World one was a Kaan when 8. onely in the Arke one was a Cham Among the 12. one a Iudas The purest Wheate hath some chaffe with it The fairest garden some weeds in it Therefore let no man forbeare to practice any knowne truth for other mens lewd lives onely let them be carefull to doe well themselves Mourne for such as doe otherwise and seeke by all due and lawfull meanes their Amendment And this is the burden and no other which the Lord layes upon them The last sort he divides into 5 rankes at which he either girds or right-out chargeth with Hypocrisie partialitie pride ignorance mallace and the like It is said of Tamberlane * Richard Knowles in the life of Baiazee that he raised warre against Baiazet the fourth King of the Turkes because he refused to receive certaine strange Garments which he sent unto him I beleeve had these men embraced the Treatisers opinion in this point of Hearing they should not have heard him speake so bitterly against them But to the particulars Some are carried with so excessive admiration of some former guides in their course Treat as they thinke is halfe Heresy to call into question any of their determinations or practises Answ Howsoever we must live by our owne faith notwithstanding we are not lightly to esteeme of the determinations and practises of our guides specially when we know they are no reeds but men stable and unchangeable in the truth He is a foolish traviler that will leave the way which he hath long kept unlesse he be sure he is out There is as Polanus h CoÌ„ment in Ezech. cap. 20. pag. 487. saith a laudable imitation of Elders That is so farre to follow them as they are followers of Christ 2. J know none more faulty this way then such as have learned of him to heare unlawfull Ministers For were not these men superstitiously addicted to his new devise they would beware how to reject as they doe the unanimous judgement and practice of all Learned Men and true Churches and follow the blinde trodd of his single opinion Such as lay downe rules to finde out the truth by write thus What the Fathers i Quid-quid omnes pariter uno codemque consensu c. Vincent Lirenens cont prophanos haeret c. 4. all with one consent have held and written is a necessary token to know the truth by Againe k D. Feild of the church l. 3. c. 43 p. 175 Whatsoever hath beene holden at all times and in all places by all Christians that hath not beene noted for novelty singularity and division is to be received as the undoubted truth of God If these Assertions be true the Treatisers then is untrue For not onely are all old Writers against it but the most Learned of later times Yea and let it be minded all Sects and sorts of people professing Christianitie abhorre it J except onely Familists For they and he â—â—dem in ludâ— docti are for the pleading and practice here much alike Some againe are much addicted to themselves as the former to others Treat Conceiving in effect though they will not professe it the same of their Heads which the Papists doe of their Head the Pope that they cannot erre or be deceived And this specially in such matters us for which they have suffered trouble and affliction formerly Answ 1. Wee are all more ready to blame faults in others then to see our owne and amend them Had not the Treatiser thought to well of himselfe I doubt whether he would so lightly have singled himselfe out and become as it were every mans opposite Humble minds are affraid to meddle with novelties but such as seeke humane praise imagine they cannot enought be observed unlesse out of the dreggs of Sophistry they raise some strange quiddities whereby to crosse truths generally received 2. That any man should love and like a thing because it leads to persecution That J cannot thinke But this J thinke There are some which doe professe practice many things and namelie this of Hearing on no better ground or reason but hereby to keep themselves out of troubles There is also a third sort who bend their force rather to the weakning of other men in their courses Treat then to the building up of themselves in their owne halfe imagining that they draw neere enought to God if they can withdraw enought from other men Answ I cannot devise for what end the Treat * Aliquid latet quod non patet should seeke thus to discover other mens nakednes except it be he thought that the more vile and contemptible he made his Opposites appeare in the Readers eye the easier he would be won to embrace this his opinion of Hearing Antichristian Ministers a prittie trick Much like that Lesson of the Cannon Lavv Si non caste tamen cause But such shifts profit not for a godly minde will search and looke into the cause it selfe and not on the persons either for or against it To oppose a bad course is meet and lawfull and should we be silent when we are called to testifie against it we should make our selves hereby open transgressours Touching the building up of our selves This as Iude †Ver. 20. teacheth must be in our most holy faith He that rayseth up a House with rotten stuffe * What is there else in Babilon will loose his cost and labour by it I know not what withdrawing he meanes from other men if he intend a withdravving from the Hearing of false Ministers then I answer they doe
quod sit inductivum ad peccandum puta cum aliquis publice facit peccatum vell quod habet similitudinem peccati Aquin. 2. quest 43. Art 1. a. 4. this is an inducement to it And gives another occasion to fall And so much in effect writes Zanchy p Explic. in 1 Thes 5. 22. p. 419 Tom 6. on the place 5. This is not without appearance of evill and scandall because hereby men seeke to uphold such wayes and inventions in divine worship as the Lord of old hath ordained to destruction q ler 51. 26 2 The. 2 8. Rev. 18. Merdecah would not give countenance nor reverence to one of that Nation r Brent Comment in Hest c. 3 v 2. whose name God had appointed to be blotted out under Heaven Wherfore did the Lord give so straight a charge unto Israel to breake downe Altars s Deu. 7 5. groues high-places c. Vt ex eo intelligamus because saith Junius t Anal. in Deu. 12 p. 71. by this we should understand that they were not to retaine any thing that concerneth either the substance or shew of Idolatrie Calvine u Comment in Esa 27 9. speakes the very same So detestable is idolatrie before God Vt eius memoriam vult penitus deleri ne posthà c ullum eius vestigium appareat That he will have the very memorie of it utterly to bee abolished least any footstept thereof should appeare afterward Iacob abolished out of his House not only the idols but the ear-ings Gen. 35. 4. because they were superstitionis insignia Monuments of superstition As Calvin y Comment in Gen. 35 4. Monilia Idolis consecrata Iewels consecrated to idols As Pareus a ibid. Res idolatriae pertinentes Things appertaining to idolatrie as Iunius b ibid. To be short would not God have the Iewes under the law to countenance any humaine devise whether Ministerie c Numb 8 22. 24. Numb 4. 24 31. 1847 Ministration Altar Sacrifice Sacraments either by word d Psa 16. Hos 2 16 16 17. writing presence assembling together e Deu. 16 1 6 1 King 12 32. observing the time comming to the place bowing downe f Deu. 5 9. Ps 95 6. Hos 13. 2. Eze. 18 6. Neh 10 32. 37. Ex. 30 16. Eze. 5 c. kneeling lifting up the eyes paying of tithes g Offerings Contributions c. And shall wee thinke that all these outward obseruances are novv out of use and that men in such respects may publickly countenance the vvayes of Antichrist As for such as so thinke let them knovv they are in errour and sinne And as the Papists have condemned Montanus for an Heretick and yet raetine among them his vile opinions So doe these men embrace the lies and beastly vanities of H. N. that monstrous Monster although in words they will disclaime all Familisme ‡ As cats loue not the Master of the hous but his housholds-goods so many say they can̄ot abide the Pope yet loue his houshold stuffe to well Consider what I say and the Lord give you understanding For the instance vvhich hee brings of hyring a House in a Parish it is discrepant and impertinent and so of no validitie For let Barnards g Consirat Eugen l. 3. usefull Canon be observed an liceat an deceat an expediat vvee shall soon see there is no agreement betvveen it and the thing he applies it to For first the Law of God alloweth us to live where wicked men doe and to have necessarie society with them in civill things And thus the godly in all ages have practised But let them shew us where it is written that we must goe unto their unlawfull-Church-meetings and there worship God with them and among them I aske againe who of the Saints hath done this The Lord h ler. 15. 19. sayth Let them returne to thee but returne not thou unto them 2. It is seemely that we dwell among them and reciprocally give and take earthly helpes each of other * Compossessores mūdi non erroris Wee must be cò partners with them in the world but not in their errours saith Tertulliā But in Religion we may not use any of their devises as meanes and furtherances of our edification Elias was carefull to repaire the Lords Altar For as Martyr i In his Comment on the place saith he judged it an unbefitting thing and a great indignitie to God and his truth to Offer Sacrifice on Baals Altar If men in those dayes had the Zeale of that good Prophet they would scorne and loath to make use of any thing that is Antichrists I say it againe vvere men zealous for the Lord God of Hosts they would feare to runne to false Churches and Ministers to be edified Is it not because there is not a God in Israel that ye goe 3. This also is behovefull and expedient as the Apostle k 1 Cor. 5. 10. saith But the other is not so as we have before proved For Conclusion wheresoever I live my constant absence from their Church is an evident token that I have left them But on the contrarie if I goe thither to worship this gives them just cause to thinke that I approve of their unsanctified standing Whosoever therefore can make these two things hang together I must needs say quid libet equolibet of every thing hee can make any thing But of this no more now let us hearken to what followes SECT 10. THe next Objection is thus layd dovvne None can heare without a Preacher None can preach except he be sent Rom. 10. 14. 15. Therefore I cannot Lawfully heare him that hath not a Lawfull sending His answer to it is Treat 1. That Conclusion is neither in the Text nor sound 2. I may Lawfully heare him that hath no Lawfull calling as I have formerly shewed 3. The sending there intended is Gods gracious worke of providence in raysing up men by enabling and disposing them to preach c. 4. If faith came by the preaching of unlawfull Ministers it followes thereupon that such Preachers are sent in the Apostles sence This is the summe of his ansvver Answ It was a cunning trick which Themostocles was once taught by a man of Lacedemonia that because they might not take the Tables away wherein a Law was engraven He should therefore turne them up-side downe which was as good as to take them away altogether Howsoever the Treat takes not from us the Tables of holie Scriptures wherein is written the Law of Christs Ministers yet by a prittie devise hee turnes them here upside downe Which is as good as to take them quite away J know what J speake and will stand to it For if this place Rom. 10 14 15. respects not a true outward calling but is to be understood promiscuously of all Ministers be their calling never so false divilish Antichristian I say if this Text be so to be
fallacia ex ignorantione veri Elenchi which is to change the state of the question and to draw Conclusions contrarie to the true rules of the axiomes or propositions disputed off The Treat is fallen into this fault For whereas our question is onlie about hearing in Church-way and of Church-Officers Hee alters quite the state of the point and speakes of hearing at large As if we should question whether Hearing simplie bee unlawfull and not rather hearing with certaine adjuncts That is in an Antichristian Church of a false Minister the like But to come to his answer 1. What it is to Prophesie in his sence ‡ The Trea. wrote once that no Scripture justines preaching out of a true Church much lesse in a false Church justificat Separ p. 73. I know not neither doe I inquire after For it is sufficient for me to know what Prophesie is and what true Prophets are in the sence of the Scriptures In the Booke of God I find true Prophets to be taken three wayes 1. Strictly for one who from the inward counsell of God could foretell things to come g Gen. 20. 17 Numb 12 6 Deu. 18 55. 2. For Lawfull Pastors and Teachers in the Churches of Christ h Mat. 10. 41. 1 Thes 5. 20 Rev 11 6 3. And more largely For such private members i 1 Cor. 14 Rom. 12. 6. of particular Churches as have received the gift of the interpretation of the Scriptures and so are able to speake to edification exhortation and comfort Of no other true Prophets doe I read in all the Scripture Seing therfore the Preists he pleads for are not of any of these rancks k Quae. in what ranck of Prophets unlawfull Ministers are And under what Scripture they are comprehended I would haue a private Christian aske this question of some learned divine whome hee knowes doth hold it lawfull to heare false Ministers And it is very likely he will answer him by deepe silence Then needs must they be false Prophets and so consequently not to bee heard 2. Againe in p. 77. He sayth No maÌ„ teached the Gospell but was a member of a true Church For the other part of his answer Which is hee that teacheth false Doctrine is a false Prophet Here I thinke wee must take his meaning and leave his words But what he meanes J know not And therefore will cast it aside only here is a fitt place to propound a question or two 1 Whether to hold teach and practice the errours and lies conteyned in their Canons Service-Booke Bookes of Articles and the Ordering of Bb. Preists and Deacons doe make a false Prophet 2. Whether to hide from the people the knowledge of all the main truths which concerne the outward regiment of Christs visible Church make a false Prophet 3. Whether it bee Lawfull to heare any false Prophet known so to be l There is one question more viz. whether the Lords Lawfull Preists which served at the Altar in Ierusalem mought not as well urge their people to heare Ieroboams Preist at Dun and Bethel As the Ministers novv under the Gospell to persvvade men to heare in false Churches If it bee not all one shevv the difference The simple beleeveth every word m Pro. 14. 15. But the prudent man looketh well to his going There is nothing more in this answer but a little girding at some mens persons and at their exercise of Prophesie to which J will say no more but in the Poets n Iuvenal Satyr 2. words Dat veniam Corvis vexat Censura Columbas SECT 13. THE 13. Objection is laid downe in this manner The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal or to Bethel Hos 4. 15. 16. Treat The meaning is plaine the words expresse that they were not to goe thither to offend and play the Harlot in joyning to idols Ver. 15. 16. This I grant ‡ Nos qui Christiano nomine gaudemus dicemus nos abjicere Deos alienos verum colere cum pars idola defendat adoret colat breviter divinis honoribus pro sequatur Lavar in Josh c. 24 Hom. 71. p fol. 81. is to be done in no place But deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by mee pleaded for The Scriptures every where forbid the going or comming to such places or persons as in by or with them some evill is done to wit for the doing of any thing evill or unlawfull in or with them This is all a primo ad ultimum Ansvv When Children find any hard words in their Lesson They wil be sure to passe them quickly over Hoping thereby to save themselves I must needs say the Treat met here with a strong argument And therefore it is no wonder though he shew us a Scholers tricke To wit leave that speedilie the which hee knew not how to answer * See the like answer to our 1. Object It is Antonies precept in Tullie if men be troubled about a hard question to say nothing to it De Orat. l. 2. If the Reader doe not see the weaknes of it to say the best of it I will set before him a glasse to vew it in For 1. He makes himselfe here an Opposite to science 2. To Conscience 3. To the truth And lastly to himselfe And first of the first They vvere nor sayth he to goe thither to offend J professe in all good conscience my desire is not to pervert his meaning but to understand it But how to understand it J know not For his speach is much like the answer which Pythius the Preist gave to Pyrrhus the King Epire. a Cicer. de divin Ajo te Aeâ—cida Romanos vincere posse An answer so dubious discrepant as it cannot be gathered from it whether He or the Romanes should overcome The Treat answer is of the like ambiguitie and darknes It is an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Philosopher b Arist 1 Seph 4. speakes For you cannot directly say whether hee intends that Iudah might Lawâ—ully heare Ieroboams Preists at Dan and Bethell or not You may take it either way or no way For it is utroque nutans sententia a speach like an Echo and will say whatsoever you will say before it But it is no marvaile Hoc neque prophetae predicaverunt neque Dominus docuit neque Apostoli tradiderunt Iren. l. 1. c. 1. though hee leaves the matter thus in a doubtfull sence For I beleeve what Augustine c Liberius improbare non audio ad Ian. Epist 119. sayth of himselfe was here true in the Treat hee durst not freely speake his judgement But in the meane time this sheweth a wretched cause For whosoever sees his cause to be good hee will search and weigh rather what should be said plainly and to the full then what may be said darkly and coulorable and so to put it off with a shift 2. If he meant to say any thing his