Selected quad for the lemma: state_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
state_n	government_n	king_n	monarchy_n	1,384	5	9.4516	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41287	A speech of the Honourable Nathanael Fiennes, second son to the right honourable the Lord Say, in answere to the third speech of the Lord George Digby concerning bishops and the city of Londons petition : both which were made the 9th of Feb. 1640 in the honourable House of Commons : in which is plainely cleared the severall objections that are made against the Londoners petition and also the great and transcendent evills of episcopal government, are demonstrated and plainly laid open.	Fiennes, Nathaniel, 1607 or 8-1669.	1641 (1641)	Wing F880; ESTC R226088	15,328	32

much knowledge in antiquitie as to confute this out of the fathers and ecclesiasticall histories although there are that undertake that onely one sentence I have often heard cited out of Saint Ierome that in the primitive times Omnia communi Clericorum Concilio regebantur and truely so farre as the Acts of the Apostles and the new Tastament goeth which was the ancientest and most primitive time of Christianity I could never finde there any distinction betweene a Bishop and a Presbyter but that they were one and the very same thing In the next place that which is alledged for the credit of episcopacy is that our reformers and martyrs were many of them Bishops and practized many of those things now complained of and that in other reformed Churches where Bishops are not they are desired For the martyrs and reformers of the Church that were Bishops I doe not understand that that was any part of their reformation nor of their martyrdome I have read that whereas Ridley and Hooper had some difference betweene them in their life time about these things when they came both to their martyrdome hee that had formerly been the patron of this Hierarchie and Ceremonies told his Brother that therein his foolishnesse had contended with his wisedome As for that which is said that other reformed Churches where they have not Bishops yet they are desired I will not deny but some among them may desire Bishoprickes I meane the Dignities and Revenues of bishops but that they desire bishops as thinking it the fittest and best Government of the Church I cannot beleeve for if they would have Bishops why doe they not make themselves Bishops I know not what hindreth why they might not have Bishops when they would In the last place for that which is alledged in relation to the Government of this Kingdome that Bishops are so necessarie as that the King cannot well let them goe with the safetie of Monarchy that if Bishops be taken away assemblies or something must come in the roome therof And if Kings should be subject thereunto and should happen to bee excommunicated thereby that after they would bee little esteemed or obeyed as Kings for this if it shall be cleared as it is affirmed that the removall of the Government by Bishops or of any thing therein do any thing strike at Monarchie I shall never give my vote nor consent thereunto as long as I live But to cleare that this is not so I offer to your consideration that by the law of this land not onely all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but also all superiority preheminence over the ecclesiastical state is annexed to the imperiall Crown of this Realme and may bee granted by Commission under the great seale to such persons as his Majestie shall thinke meete now if the King should grant it unto a certaine number of Commissioners equall in authoritie as hee may doe this were an abolition of Episcopacie and yet not diminution of Monarchy but the truth is Episcopacie is a kinde of Monarchie under a Monarchie and is therein altogether unlike the civill Government under his Majestie for the King being a common head over the ecclesiasticall state and the civill we shall finde that in the exercise of civill jurisdiction in all Courts under his Majestie it is Aristocraticall and placed in manie and not in one as appeareth in this high Court of Parliament in the inferiour Courts of Westminster-Hall in the Sizes and Sessions in the countrie which are held by manie Commissioners and not onely by one or his deputies and Commissaries as it is in the exercise of ecclesiasticall Gogoverment As to the point of excommunicatiō supposing that it did dissolve naturall and civill bonds of dutie as it doth not it might indeed bee as terrible to Princes as it is represented But I reason thus either princes are subject to excommunication or they are not if they bee not then they need as little to fear a Presbyterie or an Assembly as a Bishop in that respect if they bee they have as much to feare from Bishops at leastwise from Bishops in their Convocations as from Presbyters in their assemblies and so much the more because they have formerly felt the thunderbolts of those of that stampe but never from this latter sort And now Sir I proceed to represent unto you the evills and inconveniences that doe proceed from the Government and Ceremonies of the Church and truely in my opinion the chiefe and principall cause of all the evills which wee have suffered since the reformation in this Church and State hath proceeded from that division which so unhappily hath sprung up amongst us about Church Government and the ceremonies of the Church and from which part in that division I beleeve it will appeare in the particulars I know well there is a great division that upon greater matters betweene us and the Papists and I am not ignorant that there have been great and sore breaches made upon our civil liberties and the right of our proprieties But yet still I returne to my former position that the chiefe and most active cause hath proceeded from the Government and Ceremonies of the Church and that those other causes have either fallen into it and so acted by it or issued out of it and so acted from it As for poperie I conceive that to have beene a cause that hath fallen into this and acted by it for at the reformation it received such a deadly wound by so many sharpe lawes enacted against it that had it not beene enlivened by this division amongst us it could never have had influence upon our Church and State to have troubled them as this day we feele but finding that in this division amongst us one partie had neede of some of their principalls to maintain their Hierarchie together with their worldly pompe and ceremonies which are appurtenances thereunto from hence they first conceived a ground of hope and afterwards found meanes of successe towards the introducing againe of their superstition and idolatrie into this Realme and they wrought so diligently upon this foundation that they have advanced their building very farre and how neere they were to set up the Roofe I leave it to your consideration As for the evills which wee have suffered in our civill liberty and the right of our proprieties I conceive they have proceeded out of this and so acted from it for if there had beene no breaches of Parliaments there would have beene no need to have had recourse unto those broken cisternes that can hold no water but there being a stoppage of Parlamentary supplies that was an occasion of letting in upon us such an inundation of monopolies and other illegall taxes and impositions accompanied with many other heavy and sore breaches of our liberties Now there needed not to have beene any breaches of Parliaments had there not been something disliked in them and what was that it could not be any of these

feare but those indifferent ceremonies I shal say no more of them but I pray God that now at length it may please his Majestie with this his great Counsel of Parliament to take a view of them and if there be a necessitie to retaine them let them bee retained but if not then let us remove them before they ruine us As to the evills and inconveniences that arise out of the Government it selfe I should have noted something amisse as well in the legislative part as in the executive part but in the former I am prevented by what hath beene already voted concerning the power of making Cannons which votes if they bee brought to perfection they will set us right in great part in that respect for surely before the power was neither in the hands of such as were representative of that which is truely the Church of England nor yet in the hands of those that were truely representative of the Clergie of England if they were the whole Church as indeed they are not As to the executive part which consisteth in the exercise of ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction therein I note also two disorders Confusion and Corruption Confusion of the Spirituall sword with the Temporall lay-men strike with the Spirituall sword and Spirituall men with the Temporall sword nay out of the same mouth and at the same time proceedeth an excommunication and a fine or commitment or both I will not say positively that it is unlawfull for Clergie men to exercise civill Jurisdiction because I know it is a question but yet such a question as hath beene determined by divers Canons of generall Councells and by some that were made in Synods of the Church of England that it is unlawfull and that upon grounds which are not contemptible As first that it is contrary to the precept and practise of Christ and his Apostles And secondly that it is not possible for one man to discharge two functions whereof either is sufficient to imploy the whole man especially that of the ministery so great that they ought not to entangle themselves with the affaires of this world A third ground not so well observed generally as in one part thereof is this that Ministers of the Gospell being sent especially to gaine the soules of men they are to gaine as great interest as possible may bee in their minds and affections now wee know that the nature of all men is such that they are apt to thinke hardly of those that are any authors of their paine and punishment although it bee in a way of justice therefore as it is well knowne that Clergy men are not to be present in judicio sanguinis so the same reason extends it selfe to the administration of all civill jurisdiction and therefore wee may observe that our Saviour Christ as he alwayes rejected all civill judicature so on the other side he went up and downe healing mens bodies and otherwise doing good to their outward estate that his doctrine might have a freer and fairer passage into their soules For the corruption that I spoke of in the exercise of Ecclesiastical jurisdiction I do not mean any personall corruption but a deviation or aberration from the prescript of the divine rule and though it bee not easie to finde what that is in all particulars yet it is not hard to say what it is not and that I doubt may prove our case in divers things Ecclesiastical jurisdiction we know extendeth either to the Clergy onely and consisteth in the Ordination Admission Suspension and Deprivation of them or else it extendeth to the whole Church and consisteth in excommunication and absolution As to the Ordination Admission Suspension and Deprivation of Ministers we see how it is wholly at the pleasure of one man and that of one man proceeding in a manner arbitrarily and that of one man whose interest is concern'd in it that the doore should be shut against able and painfull preaching Ministers and a wide doore set open to such as are unable and unfit for that function many and great and dangerous evills arise from hence As first that there is a constant farre and fewd betweene the Ecclesiasticall State and the Civill betweene Prelates and Parliaments betweene the Cannon law and the Common law betweene the Clergy and the Common-wealth arising from the disproportion and dissimilitude which is between the Civill and Ecclesiastical Governement however it may seeme to some to agree well enough but the truth is if wee consider his Majesty as the Common-head over the Ecclesiasticall State as well as the Civill wee shall finde that in the exercise of all Civil jurisdiction in all Courts under his Majesty the power is not in any one or his Deputies and Commissaries as it is in the Ecclesiasticall Government in the severall Diocesses throughout this Kingdome if wee looke first upon the highest and greatest Court the high Court of Parliament we know that is a Counsell and a great Counsel too In like manner in the inferiour Courts of Westminster-Hall there are many Judges in the point of law and more in matter of fact wherein every man is judged by twelve of equall condition unto him I meane the juries which are Judges of the fact both in causes Civill and Criminall and if wee looke into the country wee shall finde the Sessions and Sizes and other Courts held not by any one but by divers Commissioners And in short in the Civil Government every man from the greatest to the least hath some share in the Government according to the Proportion of his Interest in the Common-wealth but in the Government of the Church all is in the hands of one man in the several Diocesses or of his Chancellours or Commissaries and hee exacts Canonicall obedience to his Pontificall commands with a totall exclusion of those that notwithstanding have as much share in the Church and consequently as much Interest in the government of it as they have in that of the Commonwealth Sir untill the Ecclesiastical government be framed something of another twist and be more assimilated unto that of the Common-wealth I feare the Ecclesiastical government will bee no good neighbour unto the Civil but will be still a casting in of its leaven into it to reduce that also to a sole absolute and arbitrary way of proceeding And herein Sir I do not beleeve that I utter Prophesies but what we have already found and felt A Second and that a great evill and of dangerous consequence in this sole and arbitrary power of Bishops over their Clergy is this that they have by that meanes a power to place and displace the whole Clergie of their Diocesse at their pleasure and this is such a power as for my part I had rather they had the like power over the Estate and persons of all within their Diocesse for if I hold the one but at the will and pleasure of one man I meane the Ministery under which I must live I can