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state_n good_a great_a time_n 3,744 5 3.2616 3 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A14828 A dialogue betwixt a secular priest, and a lay gentleman. Concerning some points objected by the Iesuiticall faction against such secular priests, as haue shewed their dislike of M. Blackwell and the Iesuits proceedings.. Mush, John.; Watson, William, 1559?-1603. 1601 (1601) STC 25124.5; ESTC S101830 96,830 158

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a_o dialogue_n betwixt_o a_o secular_a priest_n and_o a_o lay_v gentleman_n concern_v some_o point_n object_v by_o the_o jesuitical_a faction_n against_o such_o secular_a priest_n as_o have_v show_v their_o dislike_n of_o m._n blackwell_n and_o the_o jesuit_n proceed_n print_a at_o rheims_n mdci_o the_o preface_n to_o the_o reader_n among_o many_o letter_n and_o treatise_n that_o have_v come_v unto_o my_o hand_n concern_v the_o matter_n in_o question_n betwixt_o the_o secular_a priest_n and_o the_o jesuit_n one_o of_o most_o moment_n pith_n and_o substance_n in_o my_o opinion_n be_v this_o ensue_a dialogate_v discourse_n which_o by_o so_o much_o the_o more_o merit_v my_o poor_a commendation_n in_o grace_v it_o with_o a_o general_a preface_n by_o how_o much_o as_o it_o be_v in_o a_o sort_n a_o abstract_n compendium_n or_o a_o brief_a of_o all_o and_o the_o most_o important_a matter_n that_o be_v in_o controversy_n betwixt_o we_o and_o the_o say_v span._n or_o jesuitical_a faction_n 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terram_fw-la and_o in_o another_o to_o a_o wither_a flower_n to_o day_n fresh_a to_o morrow_n in_o the_o furnace_n and_o always_o like_o a_o weathercock_n changeable_a wander_a and_o uncertain_a true_a it_o be_v and_o can_v be_v deny_v that_o the_o heathen_n complaint_n be_v unjust_a and_o proceed_v of_o looseness_n ignorance_n and_o malice_n especial_o the_o blockish_a and_o beastly_a epicure_n to_o who_o nature_n infirmity_n be_v such_o a_o stumble_a block_n as_o they_o thereupon_o deny_v the_o providence_n divine_a of_o god_n towards_o man_n and_o all_o religion_n and_o reverence_n of_o man_n to_o he_o again_o yet_o the_o scope_n of_o my_o speech_n tend_v only_o to_o this_o to_o bewray_v the_o catholic_n extreme_a folly_n in_o conceit_v the_o jesuit_n to_o be_v such_o man_n of_o such_o rareness_n such_o excellency_n such_o worthiness_n and_o perfestion_n as_o except_v our_o saviour_n christ_n as_o man_n our_o bless_a lady_n perhaps_o s._n john_n baptist_n if_o the_o jesuit_n will_v give_v i_o leave_v their_o like_a neither_o be_v neither_o be_v neither_o ever_o will_v be_v find_v in_o rerum_fw-la natura_fw-la from_o adam_n fall_n to_o the_o world_n end_n there_o can_v be_v a_o sound_a argument_n take_v to_o confirm_v that_o the_o jesuit_n be_v but_o miserable_a wretch_n and_o as_o impotent_a weak_a frail_a imperfect_a and_o sinful_a man_n as_o we_o poor_a publican_n so_o esteem_v of_o by_o they_o be_v then_o this_o deduct_v out_o of_o the_o principle_n of_o nature_n own_o law_n custom_n and_o tradition_n in_o our_o bowel_n for_o cat_n will_v to_o her_o kind_n bunten_n to_o his_o bay_n fry_n to_o his_o hole_n and_o man_n to_o his_o misery_n and_o all_o this_o by_o reason_n that_o the_o wound_n which_o be_v inflict_v in_o the_o state_n of_o innocence_n have_v so_o fester_v in_o the_o whole_a posterity_n of_o adam_n as_o no_o hope_n of_o cure_n during_o the_o time_n of_o man_n mortality_n and_o the_o transgression_n of_o the_o first_o lawbreaker_n be_v so_o 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no_o belus_n among_o the_o assyrian_n no_o ceres_n or_o rhadamanthus_n no_o draco_n solon_n or_o other_o legifer_fw-la among_o the_o athenian_n no_o mercurius_n among_o the_o egyptian_n no_o minos_n lycurgus_n charandos_fw-mi phorondus_n romulus_n pythagoras_n or_o apollo_n among_o the_o cretensian_o lacedaemonian_n tyrian_n grecian_n roman_n italian_n archadian_o no_o druid_n among_o the_o gaul_n no_o martia_n mulmutius_n gildas_n alfrede_n edward_n or_o any_o other_o virtuous_a king_n politic_a prince_n prudent_a regent_n or_o exquisite_a legifer_fw-la among_o the_o briton_n or_o englishman_n at_o a_o word_n no_o lawmaker_n of_o to_z or_o for_o any_o nation_n can_v ever_o utter_o take_v it_o away_o neither_o any_o abraham_n lot_n job_n moses_n samuel_n solomon_n or_o adam_n himself_o that_o have_v taste_v the_o difference_n of_o both_o estate_n of_o innocence_n and_o sin_n of_o original_a justice_n and_o original_a offence_n of_o syndericall_a prudence_n and_o sottish_a ignorance_n 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trial_n before_o the_o high_a tribunal_n on_o earth_n and_o to_o be_v make_v know_v unto_o the_o christian_a world_n how_o they_o have_v injury_v we_o they_o will_v step_v back_o again_o and_o with_o any_o smooth_a and_o cunning_a shift_n make_v man_n believe_v they_o have_v not_o so_o foul_o err_v and_o break_v the_o bond_n of_o all_o christian_a charity_n but_o the_o case_n be_v clear_a enough_o their_o action_n be_v manifest_a to_o all_o our_o nation_n and_o will_v convince_v they_o of_o too_o intolerable_a impudency_n if_o they_o deny_v that_o which_o all_o man_n know_v they_o to_o have_v do_v we_o have_v also_o their_o own_o hand_n to_o testify_v against_o they_o but_o in_o such_o man_n if_o the_o testimony_n of_o their_o own_o conscience_n will_v not_o suffice_v to_o make_v they_o confess_v a_o truth_n though_o it_o be_v to_o their_o own_o temporal_a confusion_n especial_o when_o their_o fact_n be_v know_v to_o a_o whole_a nation_n as_o this_o be_v they_o may_v keep_v 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refuse_v to_o obey_v his_o decree_n of_o what_o quality_n soever_o they_o shall_v be_v we_o must_v return_v upon_o themselves_o the_o same_o reproach_n but_o in_o a_o high_a degree_n for_o contend_v with_o their_o fa._n general_n in_o any_o sort_n or_o for_o any_o cause_n or_o if_o again_o for_o credit_n of_o their_o society_n they_o listen_v to_o excuse_v their_o brethren_n and_o free_v they_o from_o disobedience_n in_o that_o contention_n because_o in_o many_o case_n the_o subject_n may_v resist_v their_o superior_n will_n or_o commandment_n if_o they_o do_v this_o for_o love_n to_o their_o own_o credit_n we_o may_v entreat_v they_o for_o christian_a charity_n sake_n to_o excuse_v our_o fact_n or_o to_o clear_v we_o of_o this_o horrible_a crime_n and_o slander_n of_o disobedience_n for_o our_o refuse_v to_o obey_v the_o archp._n in_o his_o decree_n opposite_a to_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n and_o holy_a church_n gent._n it_o be_v good_a reason_n they_o shall_v so_o do_v in_o this_o matter_n of_o his_o unjust_a decree_n but_o how_o can_v you_o excuse_v yourselves_o from_o disobedience_n when_o you_o use_v your_o faculty_n after_o he_o have_v deprive_v you_o of_o they_o and_o you_o celebrate_v notwithstanding_o he_o have_v suspend_v you_o do_v you_o not_o acknowledge_v he_o to_o have_v jurisdiction_n over_o you_o in_o these_o case_n priest_n yes_o we_o do_v but_o yet_o in_o such_o wise_a prescribe_v unto_o he_o and_o limit_v as_o if_o he_o attempt_v to_o do_v any_o thing_n beyond_o his_o commission_n it_o be_v of_o no_o effect_n nor_o validity_n gent._n this_o must_v needs_o be_v true_a for_o it_o be_v a_o unreasonable_a and_o disorderly_a authority_n if_o it_o leave_v all_o at_o his_o liberty_n especial_o to_o inflict_v punishment_n at_o his_o pleasure_n without_o more_o priest_n his_o authority_n be_v to_o punish_v priest_n for_o crime_n commit_v either_o by_o suspend_v the_o use_n of_o their_o faculty_n or_o by_o deprive_v they_o altogether_o as_o for_o suspend_v from_o the_o altar_n we_o think_v he_o want_v authority_n but_o where_o there_o be_v no_o crime_n commit_v where_o no_o crime_n be_v prove_v against_o a_o priest_n nor_o he_o manifest_o convict_v thereof_o the_o archp._n have_v no_o authority_n in_o any_o sort_n to_o punish_v he_o now_o touch_v our_o case_n he_o have_v suspend_v some_o other_o he_o have_v quite_o bereave_v of_o their_o faculty_n but_o for_o what_o crime_n have_v he_o do_v it_o and_o in_o what_o manner_n he_o have_v not_o convent_v nor_o convict_v any_o of_o our_o priest_n of_o those_o fault_n which_o he_o and_o the_o jesuit_n have_v feign_a against_o they_o without_o proof_n of_o the_o crime_n without_o hear_v the_o accuse_v without_o cite_v they_o to_o answer_v upon_o mere_a fiction_n and_o uncharitable_a surmise_n of_o his_o own_o and_o they_o he_o have_v proceed_v against_o some_o as_o man_n guilty_a of_o schism_n rebellion_n enormous_a disobedience_n to_o the_o see_v apostolic_a and_o his_o own_o authority_n against_o other_o for_o defend_v their_o good_a name_n in_o this_o slander_n against_o other_o for_o ask_v satisfaction_n other_o he_o afflict_v for_o set_v their_o hand_n to_o the_o appeal_n without_o his_o licence_n other_o for_o persuade_v both_o part_n to_o send_v two_o priest_n to_o rome_n quiet_o with_o the_o state_n of_o the_o controversy_n that_o so_o it_o may_v be_v end_v by_o his_o holiness_n other_o for_o that_o they_o will_v not_o recall_v their_o appeal_n and_o yield_v to_o his_o opinion_n no_o less_o injurious_a to_o they_o than_o erroneous_a in_o divinity_n and_o learning_n yea_o if_o any_o defend_v the_o censure_n of_o the_o university_n of_o paris_n he_o also_o taste_v of_o his_o whip_n gent._n these_o proceed_n be_v the_o most_o disorderly_a and_o injust_a that_o ever_o i_o have_v hear_v priest_n they_o be_v no_o better_a than_o i_o tell_v you_o gent._n sure_o it_o be_v impiety_n to_o think_v that_o his_o ho._n will_v give_v he_o authority_n to_o afflict_v and_o punish_v innocent_a priest_n in_o this_o manner_n priest_n so_o it_o be_v and_o therefore_o proceed_v against_o we_o without_o authority_n all_o his_o suspention_n and_o deprivation_n be_v of_o no_o valliditie_n but_o to_o be_v contemn_v as_o frivolous_a proceed_v from_o a_o uncharitable_a disposition_n in_o he_o and_o the_o jesuit_n his_o counsellor_n thus_o you_o see_v that_o in_o truth_n we_o be_v not_o just_o to_o be_v touch_v with_o any_o note_n of_o schism_n rebellion_n or_o disobedience_n against_o either_o the_o see_v apostolic_a or_o the_o archpriest_n and_o that_o these_o report_n be_v manifest_a calumny_n and_o untrue_a slander_n purposely_o devise_v by_o our_o emulous_a adversary_n to_o delude_v man_n eye_n and_o to_o stir_v up_o the_o world_n against_o we_o to_o our_o discredit_n now_o if_o you_o be_v satisfy_v in_o these_o point_n of_o schism_n rebellion_n and_o disobedience_n let_v we_o go_v to_o another_o report_n gent._n for_o these_o thing_n i_o think_v you_o have_v say_v sufficient_o and_o i_o know_v not_o what_o to_o reply_v more_o than_o i_o have_v do_v pr._n well_o go_v to_o then_o what_o be_v the_o next_o slander_n the_o second_o slander_n gent._n they_o give_v it_o out_o all_o over_o that_o you_o be_v dangerous_a man_n because_o you_o be_v extraordinary_o favour_v by_o the_o privy_a counsel_n and_o state_n by_o who_o they_o say_v you_o be_v maintain_v and_o diverse_a of_o you_o have_v free_a accsse_n and_o familiarity_n with_o they_o and_o the_o bishop_n of_o london_n m._n waid_n and_o other_o which_o be_v great_a presumption_n that_o you_o be_v scarce_o honest_a man_n or_o to_o be_v trust_v by_o catholic_n for_o say_v they_o these_o with_o who_o you_o deal_v and_o of_o who_o you_o find_v these_o singular_a favour_n be_v profess_v adversary_n to_o god_n holy_a church_n and_o to_o all_o catholic_n and_o therefore_o it_o can_v but_o yield_v probable_a and_o very_a pregnant_a suspicion_n of_o bad_a deal_n and_o of_o treason_n to_o the_o common_a cause_n that_o you_o only_o shall_v have_v friendly_a entertainment_n conference_n and_o access_n at_o your_o pleasure_n pr._n they_o be_v our_o adversary_n no_o marvel_n then_o if_o they_o speak_v the_o worst_a of_o we_o they_o can_v and_o upon_o their_o evil_a affection_n take_v hold_v of_o every_o occasion_n to_o surmise_n and_o report_v the_o evil_n we_o never_o do_v nor_o think_v you_o see_v how_o upon_o their_o own_o private_a opinion_n only_o against_o all_o right_a and_o conscionable_a proceed_n where_o many_o as_o learned_a and_o judicial_a as_o they_o hold_v the_o contrary_a they_o condemn_v and_o defame_v we_o of_o schism_n rebellion_n and_o disobedience_n all_o divine_n and_o canonist_n reprove_v their_o fact_n and_o all_o posterity_n will_v admire_v their_o impudency_n their_o want_n of_o charity_n or_o skill_n or_o both_o and_o in_o the_o rest_n also_o their_o zeal_n spurn_v they_o forward_o to_o devise_v and_o vomit_v out_o any_o thing_n that_o may_v defile_v our_o credit_n indeed_o their_o slander_n carry_v a_o great_a show_n of_o probability_n because_o they_o be_v in_o a_o odious_a matter_n and_o seem_v to_o proceed_v from_o a_o honest_a mind_n zealous_a and_o sincere_a but_o let_v the_o particular_n be_v once_o discuss_v and_o the_o vizard_n of_o deceit_n take_v away_o and_o then_o forthwith_o the_o surmise_n and_o report_n will_v appear_v in_o it_o own_o likeness_n to_o be_v a_o mere_a calumny_n and_o untrue_a slander_n first_o therefore_o where_o they_o say_v that_o we_o be_v man_n of_o danger_n it_o be_v the_o slander_n of_o a_o enemy_n deserve_v no_o more_o credit_n than_o their_o reason_n be_v of_o force_n to_o prove_v what_o be_v their_o reason_n then_o because_o we_o be_v singular_o favour_v by_o the_o privy_a counsel_n and_o state_n admit_v it_o be_v so_o be_v this_o sufficient_a to_o prove_v we_o dangerous_a if_o it_o be_v not_o then_o be_v it_o a_o pernicious_a calumny_n to_o account_v we_o dangerous_a for_o a_o cause_n which_o be_v not_o sufficient_a to_o convince_v we_o to_o be_v dangerous_a if_o it_o be_v then_o must_v it_o follow_v that_o not_o only_o some_o of_o themselves_o but_o many_o also_o of_o their_o best_a lay_n friend_n in_o england_n have_v be_v and_o be_v in_o the_o same_o predicament_n with_o us._n have_v not_o fa._n hawood_n jesuit_n such_o extraordinary_a favour_n of_o the_o lord_n of_o leicester_n that_o beside_o the_o secret_a plotting_n &_o conference_n which_o be_v between_o they_o before_o the_o jesuit_n apprehension_n when_o the_o father_n be_v in_o durance_n in_o the_o tower_n he_o only_o have_v there_o more_o liberty_n and_o find_v more_o friendly_a usage_n than_o all_o the_o priest_n in_o the_o other_o prison_n throughout_o england_n yea_o when_o many_o catholic_a priest_n be_v close_o shut_v up_o rigorous_o use_v and_o cruel_o execute_v fa._n hawood_n lay_v at_o ease_n and_o safety_n in_o the_o
corrupt_a conscience_n for_o it_o can_v not_o be_v impute_v to_o our_o ignorance_n that_o without_o good_a reason_n and_o all_o probability_n of_o sufficient_a cause_n we_o be_v likely_a to_o forbear_v the_o acceptance_n of_o the_o new_a authority_n till_o the_o come_n of_o the_o breve_fw-la &_o witting_o to_o cast_v ourselves_o into_o a_o damnable_a state_n if_o our_o former_a labour_n and_o conversation_n have_v deserve_v this_o conceit_n our_o adversary_n may_v have_v have_v some_o pretence_n to_o justify_v their_o do_n and_o perhaps_o save_v themselves_o from_o the_o ignominy_n of_o detractor_n and_o calumniator_n but_o if_o not_o as_o i_o hope_v the_o world_n will_v testify_v for_o we_o then_o sure_o they_o shall_v have_v take_v another_o course_n contrary_a to_o this_o they_o take_v as_o well_o for_o save_v themselves_o from_o grievous_a sin_n as_o for_o preserve_v we_o from_o these_o horrible_a infamy_n into_o which_o they_o have_v cast_v both_o themselves_o and_o we_o by_o their_o heady_a and_o rash_a judgement_n for_o true_o if_o any_o one_o reason_n of_o we_o or_o all_o together_o be_v find_v a_o sufficient_a cause_n of_o our_o delay_n a_o heap_n of_o sin_n &_o infamy_n will_v redound_v upon_o their_o own_o head_n and_o we_o shall_v be_v free_v and_o now_o touch_v m._n bluet_n m._n clarke_n and_o other_o of_o we_o that_o be_v say_v to_o have_v access_n and_o conference_n daily_o with_o the_o bishop_n of_o london_n or_o some_o other_o of_o the_o counsel_n have_v their_o former_a conversation_n in_o the_o world_n and_o their_o long_a suffering_n cast_v that_o evil_n send_v or_o do_v they_o yield_v such_o certain_a proof_n of_o a_o graceless_a disposition_n that_o this_o fact_n of_o they_o can_v deserve_v no_o defence_n nor_o excuse_n or_o be_v it_o so_o manifest_o ill_a in_o itself_o that_o it_o will_v admit_v no_o cause_n as_o reasonable_a to_o salve_v it_o or_o be_v there_o no_o mean_a nor_o way_n whereby_o their_o fact_n indifferent_a doubtless_o in_o it_o own_o nature_n may_v be_v if_o not_o altogether_o justify_v and_o defend_v yet_o at_o the_o least_o excuse_v or_o leave_v unjudge_v to_o be_v already_o of_o the_o vile_a quality_n and_o they_o according_o demean_v answer_v for_o the_o jesuit_n be_v it_o a_o manifest_a and_o a_o undoubted_a sin_n that_o a_o catholic_n priest_n and_o prisoner_n haunt_v a_o adversary_n house_n and_o have_v conference_n with_o he_o gent._n now_o true_o i_o be_o persuade_v it_o be_v not_o for_o i_o have_v read_v of_o many_o good_a saint_n that_o have_v haunt_v the_o company_n of_o evil_a person_n with_o great_a zeal_n and_o merit_n and_o our_o saviour_n christ_n himself_o and_o his_o apostle_n use_v the_o company_n of_o scribe_n pharisy_n publican_n and_o the_o worst_a sinner_n priest_n if_o this_o be_v indifferent_a and_o may_v be_v do_v with_o merit_n what_o can_v make_v it_o a_o sinful_a action_n in_o m._n bluet_n and_o m._n clarke_n gent._n their_o intention_n and_o business_n only_o or_o perhaps_o the_o scandal_n they_o give_v thereby_o priest_n for_o the_o scandal_n in_o respect_n of_o all_o the_o learned_a catholic_n of_o england_n the_o priest_n and_o religious_a man_n especial_o it_o be_v scandalum_fw-la acceptum_fw-la and_o not_o datum_fw-la for_o they_o know_v it_o to_o be_v a_o indifferent_a action_n of_o it_o own_o kind_n and_o to_o be_v justifiable_a and_o make_v good_a by_o many_o circumstance_n if_o they_o take_v scandal_n before_o they_o see_v some_o ill_a effect_n to_o be_v intend_v or_o necessary_o to_o issue_v thereupon_o it_o must_v be_v only_o scandalum_fw-la acceptum_fw-la and_o for_o the_o simple_a sort_n of_o catholic_n they_o also_o with_o their_o leader_n be_v bind_v in_o conscience_n to_o suspect_v or_o judge_v no_o ill_a of_o the_o indifferent_a action_n of_o their_o catholic_a father_n and_o prisoner_n until_o some_o sinful_a intention_n or_o effect_n appear_v and_o in_o this_o case_n much_o more_o ought_v the_o constancy_n of_o these_o catholic_n priest_n imprison_v as_o long_o as_o they_o persevere_v constant_a to_o stay_v at_o the_o least_o all_o good_a christian_n from_o temerarious_a or_o rash_a judgement_n which_o be_v ever_o a_o grievous_a sin_n and_o in_o this_o case_n be_v great_o increase_v by_o the_o state_n and_o dignity_n of_o these_o man_n and_o by_o their_o former_a good_a desert_n and_o suffering_n than_o they_o shall_v be_v move_v by_o their_o access_n and_o conference_n only_o to_o suspect_v or_o judge_v the_o worst_a or_o to_o utter_v any_o thing_n derogatory_n to_o their_o good_a name_n the_o jesuit_n and_o priest_n which_o be_v willing_a to_o set_v this_o scandal_n on_o foot_n and_o labour_n what_o lie_v in_o they_o to_o make_v our_o priest_n action_n seem_v heinous_a and_o horrible_a and_o never_o cease_v to_o persuade_v the_o people_n to_o judge_v the_o worst_a and_o to_o exclaim_v against_o they_o these_o jesuit_n and_o priest_n have_v the_o more_o sin_n and_o as_o they_o be_v the_o author_n and_o continuer_n of_o the_o scandal_n so_o have_v they_o to_o answer_v for_o the_o sin_n of_o their_o disciple_n gent._n by_o my_o faith_n it_o be_v dangerous_a to_o be_v too_o forward_o in_o imitate_v the_o jesuit_n zeal_n in_o this_o point_n and_o great_a safety_n it_o be_v to_o suspend_v one_o judgement_n and_o to_o temper_v one_o tongue_n till_o more_o be_v know_v pr._n i_o think_v that_o the_o secure_a way_n for_o as_o s._n james_n four_o say_v qui_fw-la detrahit_fw-la fratri_fw-la aut_fw-la qui_fw-la iudicat_fw-la fratrem_fw-la suum_fw-la detrahit_fw-la legi_fw-la &_o iudicat_fw-la legem_fw-la si_fw-mi autem_fw-la iudicas_fw-la legem_fw-la non_fw-la es_fw-la factor_n legis_fw-la sed_fw-la judex_fw-la he_o that_o detract_v his_o brother_n or_o judge_v his_o brother_n detract_v the_o law_n and_o judge_v the_o law_n but_o if_o thou_o judge_v the_o law_n thou_o be_v not_o the_o observer_n of_o the_o law_n but_o the_o judge_n a_o pharisaical_a vice_n it_o be_v rash_o to_o judge_v and_o 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