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A51726 The pourtract of the politicke Christian-favourite originally drawn from some of the actions of the Lord Duke of St. Lucar : written to the Catholick Majesty of Philip the Great, and the fourth of that name : a piece worthy to be read by all gentlemen, who desire to know the secrets of state, and mysteries of government / by Marquesse Virgilio Malvezzi ; to this translation is annexed, the chiefe state maxims, political and historical observations, in a brief and sententious way, upon the same story of Count Olivares, Duke of St. Lucar.; Ritratto del privata politico christiano. English Malvezzi, Virgilio, marchese, 1595-1653.; Powell, Thomas, 1608-1660. 1647 (1647) Wing M360; ESTC R9198 61,007 163

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to the Counsells of your Nobility that that serves for Authority to your person which is its felicity in as much as fame the messenger of truth conceales not the praises of the Lord Duke Olivarez but by publishing your vertues fills all Europe and comforts the Church of Rome Wee truly who long before this have had notice of your Noblenesse are hardly to expresse with what comfort of heart wee have now heard by our beloved Sonne Father Zachary a Capuchin how much more you esteem a good report then riches believing that an affection for the propagation of the Faith is the fortification of the power of Spaine and the greatest honour of the Catholike King And hee affirmes that the Counsells of your zeale are such that they assure the patronage of Heaven to your family and perpetuall felicity to the Kingdomes of Spaine in as much as it is published that you have given such instructions of Christian piety in the businesse of the mariage with England that forraine Princes may learne from you with what great vertues the Chatholike Religion adornes her sonnes withall in whom the glory of the Name of God hath a greater sway then the encrease of any humane power These praises thus confirm'd by the testimonie of so good a Priest did give so much consolation to the cares of our dignity that We have been pleased to notifie it by our Apostolike Letters Proceed on worthy Lord take such paines that the inseparable Nations of the Spanish Empire may know the publike welfare the Ecclesiastick Iurisdiction and the Authority of the Noblenesse upon which We bestowe Our Apostolicall Benediction From St Peters in Rome under the Seale of the Piscator the 27th of Ap. in the yeare of our Pontificate the first and of the Lord 1624. Iohan. Champele The Prince of Wales being but ill satisfied and returned into England joyn'd himself with other of the Emulours and enemies of the King in the League of Avignion the Articles whereof were that the Hollanders should set upon Brasile that the Army of France with the assistance of the Duke of Savoy should fall upon the State of Genoa and that the King of England should goe with a Fleet for a designe upon Cales that the King of Denmark with Protestant Associats should infest the Empire that the Venetians should furnish the Duke of Savoy with money and the Grizons with money and munition to make an inrode upon the Valteline that a peace should be procured between the Turks and the Persian that the Turke might enter by the way of Hungary and Bethlem Gabor by Transilvania that the Hollanders should send Cannons and Cannoniers to the Moores of Affricke that they might beseige Mamora and Larachy All these stormes were dispers'd first by the breath of God then by the prudence of the Catholike King and by the counsell and providence of the Lord Duke there was a Fleet supplied in Brasile which recovered the Sconce whereof the Hollanders were Masters in the Bay of All Saints two Armies relieved Genoa and the Valteline the one set at large that which was at the last gaspe the other did maintaine in the Valteline the Catholike Religion The Englishmen were expected with so furnished a preparation that after they of Cales had killed some five thousand of them the rest returned home wearie and afflicted The Hollanders did loose Breda The King of Denmarke was beaten in a battle and betook himself to his trenches The Affricans were repulsed from Mamora and Carachy with a great losse After which successes there was a peace made whereby the Church obtain'd great authority the Catholike King great applause and the Lord Duke no small reputation When Leagues thrive Iealousie breakes them when they doe not thrive feare breakes them but they seldome overcome if they doe it not in an instant they have large forces but not long in regard that they are for the most part composed of ordinary powers and Warrs do quickly consume their treasures but it is not so with Monarchs A League is a body of a facile corruption it often resolves into the first matter and that abandoned it remaines but an empty power Many Sciences and Arts have one and the same object but never considered after one and the same manner and howsoever they accord to move toward it yet they agree not in the operation The Tailor goes to the same body that the Philosopher doth but when hee hath cloth'd it he leaves it because it is not ever to be cloath'd The Physitian goes likewise to the same body and when he hath healed it he goes his way because it is not alwaies to be cured The Philosopher alwaies stands fast there because it is alwaies moveable So in Leagues all have power for the object but by a diverse manner some because they receive hurt by it some because they feare it some because they envie it The first being quit from hurt they goe away because it is not alwaies hurtfull the second secured from feare they goe away because it is not alwaies fearefull so that at the last there remaines none but the last which doe alwaies envie it because it is alwaies to be envied The King would have given the Lord Duke a great Donative and would likewise have authoriz'd him to have transported from new Spaine into China a ship laden with marchandize an advantage which would have been of great commodity to him but of an answerable damage to the inhabitants of Spaine The Duke did accept of neither because he would not transgresse his established rule I conceive this so necessary an action and so concerning his reputation that I should not commend it if the ignorance of many that have not so known it did not proclaime it admirable The act is so profitatable that he who is not perswaded to it by prudence is to suffer himself to be brought to it by prevision To accept of what accepted incurres blame and what refused merits glory is a testimony either of basenesse or foolishnesse Worldly men that are not of this Alloy walke to the Temple of glory but the passage is so steep that they have need of a Waggon Some have recourse the Chariot of worth and some to the Cart of riches whereupon it comes to passe that as they are to be borne withall who seek them to make themselves glorious so are they to be reprehended who hunt after them to make themselves be blamed The Lord Duke forbeares not to take the stipends belonging to his Offices which he personally performes not applauding that drynesse of the conceites of those morrall men that blame riches Vertue I speak now of morall vertue doth not consist in being poor but in making ones self poor He doth not adore but despiseth money that spends it he that would not be rich is an un profitable poor man and a cruell fool He that casts riches into the sea is a poor vaine man and an envious fool He that possesseth wealth
enable my Relation and make the infinite worth of the Duke more famous are not by me recounted in this present worke because that I having written it I call God to witnesse without his consent I reputed it not convenient to publish them to view without authority from him that performed them but it doth me good neverthelesse to believe that he will one day be pleased that some more eminent pen then mine shall divulge them to the world not to defraud him of the glory of being the first to informe Favourites how to serve their Prince and Princes how to governe their people He that shall write as the Duke did will discover a knowledge of the great good inclination in his Master and declare himself to be a faithfull Favourite To with hold Princes from businesse may be a laudable effect but alwaies of a blame-worthy occasion if prudence produce it it is an ill signe for the Prince if sagaeity it it is worse for the Favourite because it alwaies intimates the one wicked the other unable There have been some that have deem'd it an irrevocable maxime for Favourites to estrange Princes from all manner of businesse but it may be that they peradventure have thought it ought to be so because they have found it done so they would have one draught serve to one species in a world wherein nature hath not made any thing originall that is not different to give excellent precepts to one that never was excellent and hath too too much strayed from the right is a sure destroying of him Hee is not at the first capable of more then of an indifferent good he must be first healed and then perfected there is no doubt but that a Favourite who feares not his Prince as he ought doth utterly ruine himself if he suffer his manner of proceeding to be corrected or if he let his Prince come into action The good old man of Chio said that when a Physitian met with a contagious distemper he was not on the sudden to reduce it to what it should be but to what it was at the first because to that then it ought to come Nature which does help to expell a worse distemper then its owne doth resist to bring in a better It might peradventure be credible that that Master would have inferred this who did desire a Tyrant indifferently good not that he should stay there but because he imagined that he could not at the first be reduced to a superlative without his ruine The examples of this most wise Favourite would bee of no use to the vigilant Sound mens food is most dangerous for the sicke Necessity of state importuning Taxes and the Duke knowing how much it grieved the people to see their contributions given away he writ a Discourse to his Majestie wherein he discovered the great errour that Princes ran into that proceeding and that there was not wanting to his Majestie Habits Orders Honours Offices Degrees and Greatnesse to satisfie the merits of the Worthy without either distasting the subject or impoverishing the Exchequer This counsell was the occasion that the King began ro remunerate his deserving subjects or the deservings of his subjects with honours and dignities Riches are not the pay of worth they are the wages of labour he that buyes it vilifies himself he that sells it is vile already The operation of worth produceth its reward for it produceth honours and he that hath it can pretend nothing more then some markes that he hath it Of this condition are Greatnesse Titles Orders Habits and of this nature were the City Crownes the Collars and the Triumphs of the Ancients Such rewards if they grow common give no honours nay rather they loose that they have when they are bestowed on such as have it not There was a time when rewarding did not emptie the Kings Coffers and it was a time fertile in worthy men they were most rewarded who were least rewarded Honour was then a very great price and the price of vertue only But when that which was a price began to be at a price it lost value and made men loose their courages so that honour and worth became both mercenary and men lusted rather after the wealths that bought them then after the qualities that got them The originall of so much errour and confusion was derived from such Princes that were needy and poore and thereupon gave more honour to the wealthy then the worthy but these would not have had need of riches if they had not made them necessary with taking away the reputatiou● of worth The Spartans were a while without gold and the first Romanes if they had it did not adore it States have many times encreased with money but never without valour It may be it did not concerne Kings to keep it in credit such are not the most valarous but the richest they have given reputation to what they alwaies have to assure them of that which sometimes they have not The Prince of Wales went into Spaine to get the Infanta Maria to wife and for some other respects of the Palatine his Brother in law When the Lord Duke stood firme upon this resolution that when the King of England should in his Kingdome grant all that in favour of the Catholike Religion without which there was no probability of a match that then the Catholike Nation should accord to all that that the conveniency of State required nor would he ●ver depart from this Catholike vow although he well enough understood that if the King of England would not consent to this proposition as he did manifestly declare he would not the issue that he insisted upon with a potent King to the enemies of the house of Austria and that he did foresee Warrs which would more load the Favourite then any man else because they take from him the commodity of enjoying the degree that he doth possesse and oppresse him with turmoyles cares and necessities that attend them This Counsell was the counsell of the Duke and the counsell and the Duke are worthy of the highest praise hath no need of my pen I doe here lye downe with all reverence and humility at the feet of Pope Vrban our Lord and as I have been confident to be able securely to goe on in the way of commendations of the Duke enlightned by his great splendour which in many things cannot erre and in those he can he will not So likewise have I been willing to participate the Ray of it to others to strengthen their sight that see and to illuminate them that see not and confound them that will not see Then did his holinesse write a Letter to the Lord Duke the contents whereof translated into Italian sounds as you here may heare To the beloved Sonne and Noble Lord the Earle of OLIVAREZ Vrban the Pope 8. NOBLE Lord and beloved Sonne health and Apostolicall benediction The Common report of the Monarchie of Spaine drives such an applause
enrich but few but they empty the store that must be restored by the impoverishnesse of all The most Christian King of France had besieged Rochell and suspecting that it would have been relieved by the King of England he did by the means of the Marquesse Ramboulle his Ambassadour Extraordinary demand a Navy from Phillip the fourth whereto the Councell of the Duke advising it was consented him and was an Act of great honour by delivering France from so long an oppression with so much commodity to the Catholike Faith It was thought that the Duke erred in reason of state in preferring the service of God to that of the King but he cannot erre in the service of the Catholike King that erres not in the service of God if any impious man hath in his Instructions seperated the reason of State from that of God yet are they so conjoyn'd in the concernings of this King that no distinction of any understanding can disjoyn them God who hath manifested unto us his Election of this Family for the defence of his Religion hath not left a place that it may be taken away by the quicknesse of spirit so that if some Officer of small or no Religion should by chance spring up he could do no hurt but to himself with his wicked intention finding himselfe thrust on by a nimblenesse of spirit to those actions which cloathed with the zeale of God would be laudable parts of prudence but in the examination of reason of State I conclude it to be necessarily that of the Devill when it is seperated from that of the Lord I believe that Lucifer had no intention to raise himself to such a height as to be above God for then he would not have had an intention to dissolve the Vnity but to betterit which he by the naturall gift only of science did know to be impossible He then had a thought to exalt himself by withdrawing himself aside and so going from one to make the number of two upon which afterward as upon a Center he did designe his Circumference diverse from that of God nor could he go from the one but that he must be bad because all that is good is One God drawing a line from his Circumference did to make the number of three create man the Devill likewise thrust out a line from his circumference to make the number of foure and did seduce him God who would not leave man in the hands of the Devill came to redeem him and made the number of five and although he did not take away from him the excitement that seduceth him towards the number of two yet he gave him the grace that reduced him towards the One whereupon man remained free not being able to designe a Circumference upon himselfe because there is no other Circumference to be given then of the One and of the Two nothing els being found but good or evil to determine it Operating well upon the Centre of the one and operating ill upon the Centre of the Two As there are two Circumferences so are there two reasons of State the one of God the other of the Devill that of God is to come neare to God to be great that of the Devill is to go far from God to make himselfe great what discourse then of a religious understanding shall ever deterre us from the spoiling the nest of the Heretiques if we be able to do it He that can do it and doth it not doth sin and doth inlarge as much as in him lies the Circumference of the Devill He that can do it and doth it doth enlarge by what is in his power the circumference of God Have sins power to defend States and merrits power to destroy them Oh King oh Grandee oh Catholique what thing think you can defend your Kingdomes not your treasures not the Armies it is God defends them because you have defended him because you do defend him and that you may defend him Don Emanuell of Merveses Generall of the Fleet of Lisbone wanting sufficient means to maintain him at Court to defend him from some oppositions advertis'd about the discharge of his trust was resolv'd to be gone leave a Deputy which the Duke perceiving by him when he went to get leave of him did not consent that he should depart with dammage to his reputation and yet being unwilling to hinder the course of justice did offer himselfe to his assistance as he did in effect to his purse so did this magnanimous Fauourite reserve the rewards that were bestowed upon him to helpe deserving men upon their occasions It is a more blessed thing to give then to receive and peradventure the reason is because he that hath the commodity of giving is more happy then he that hath the necessity of receiving most happy then is he that gives and not receives He that receives and gives is not the man that gives but he that gave it him such as are inflexible in receiving are so likewise in giving the selfe-same severity that they use against themselves makes them little charitable towards others the Lord Duke was able to have relieved an Officer of so great merit with that which was his of whom he had well deserved but he desired to do it with his own because he was a well deserver of the King A Favourite is to esteem the service done to his Prince as done to him and to repute himselfe obliged to whom the King is if he gives to him that hath served well he merits for those works that he hath not done but rewarded he should prize his goods more then his life more then his understanding more then himselfe that would wast himselfe and not his Estate in the Kings service the part of giving is as hard as part of receiving he that receives every thing is too covetous he that takes nothing is too severe he that gives alwaies is too prodigall and he that never gives is too miserable The Rhetorician that thought it a difficult thing to perswade a Judge to give what was his own and to be no hard matter to winne him to give what was another mans would have been upon a false ground with the Duke Oh the gallant and true magnanimity of a Favourite who helpes by liberality where he cannot by justice and will rather be a looser himselfe that he may winne who is to loose then that justice should lose who is alwaies to overcome the Subjects that have worth in them may contend with certainty of reward when they serve a Monarch whose Favourite is such an one that if he do not intercede to the King for them he gives like a King to them who will believe that a man will not be liberall of another mans purse when he is franke of his own when he is to be so I was about to say when he needs not be so I will say when he cannot be Never was there a Favourite so courteous in Audiences so
THE POURTRACT OF THE POLITICKE Christian-Favourite Originally drawn from some of the actions of the Lord DUKE of St. LUCAR Written to the Catholick Majesty of PHILIP the Great and the Fourth of that name A Piece worthy to be read by all Gentlemen who desire to know the secrets of State and mysteries of Government By Marquesse Virgilio Malvezzi To this Translation is annexed the chiefe State Maxims Political and Historical observations in a brief and sententious way upon the same story of Count Olivares Duke of St. Lucar LONDON Printed for M. Meighen and G. Bedell and are to be sold at their shop at the Middle-Temple gate 1647. To the Reader Good Reader A Little Gold is of more value then much Lead and there is more excellency in a small Diamond then in the greatest rocks or quarries of free-stone there is a quantity of vertue as well as of bignesse and it is the quality not the quantity that for the most part sets price and esteeme upon things This booke though small in bulke yet is great in worth and containes more wealth in a little roome then thou shalt find in more capacious buildings I am confident had Alexander lighted upon this piece hee would have given it entertainment wit●Homers Iliads in Darius hi●● rich Cabinet here are briefly an● sententiously set downe many excellent and rare State Maxime● and Politicall observations upon some prime actions of the greates●Favourite to the greatest Princ● of Christendome the Author 〈◊〉 the Marquesse Virgilio Malvez Zi a man so noble and eminent 〈◊〉 very way that hee needs not my pennicell to delineat him I recommend this piece to thee as 〈◊〉 jem of great value and desir● thee to drink it downe with no less● cheerefulnesse and delight ther●Cleopatra did her rich jewell when she entertained Mark Antonie and so I bid thee heartily farewell An Introduction to the Reader I Never Reader writ a book with greater hast nor with greater danger for the Enemies of that subject whereof I write will call me enemy the Corrivals flatterer the friends weake and he perhaps himselfe will deeme me rash one will believe I have said more then is said another will undertake to know I have said lesse some will make me say that which I would not say and to conclude it will be much lamented that I have taken such a freedome and liberty of speech I doe humbly intreat the Lord Duke to excuse me his friends to beare with me his competitours to know that I write not in flattery and his enemies to believe that I write not in hatred I confesse it an undertaking of no great discretion to write the actiōs of any man without knowing whether he will repute it a hate or a kindnesse and I shall peradventure be discredited with thee my reader incredulous that I can set down rules of policy and cannot put them in practice for that I could say the Byt-maker cannot byt a horse but I meane not to make that servile which is Architectonicall nor write my selfe a master wherein I am but a Scholler I could say that if a little house and a great City be not the same that then likewise the policies of Princes will not be the same with that of particulars but there I expect no glory I seeke for no excuse all my actions are without policies for I my selfe am without interests professing my selfe onely to be most affectionate to my friends most devoted to my Lords and this is a known truth to such as know me Nothing did more suspend my pen from writing this booke nor more retard my provocations to print it then the being most assured the perversenesse of the times make mee speake it that the world which is full of interests and flattery will judge mee too to be full of interests and flattery but now I returne to your excellency great Favourite and here doe publiquely protest that I have writ for truths sake first of all for so nay more then so do your great actions merit then after that ingratitude for so much and much more I am indebted to the noble offers which so exceeding lovingly you did make bee made mee in times that were to me calamitous And if I have not lighted upon any thing that suites with your liking I doe humbly again intreat you to excuse mee but if you doe happily value my will to merit a reward any reward whatsoever that is not either your favour or your praise should by mee be reputed for an insufferable injury and I should be compel'd by necessity to call your Excellency by the name of ingratefull My family hath never knowne how to deserve rewards in Spaine with any other pen then with the Sword nor with any other ink then with blood and I am still likewise ready both with the one and the other if not to deserve yet at least to serve I am not of so poor a condition as that I am forced to write for a reward nor am I of so arrogant a disposition as that I write to give instructions but I am least of all so far from vain as not to write for praise which peradventure is my due if not because I merit it yet in regard I seeke it for though this affecting of praise be not to be commended yet is it out of question to be tolerated because it is borne with us because it seldome times dies before us and it many times makes us live longer then we doe live I intreat thee Reader and I humblie intreat thee that if ever my writings have beene of any merit with thee either by unloading thee of idlenesse or by withholding thee from drowsinesse to be willing to favour me with a beliefe that in all my past present books I never have meant nor doe ever meane to blame any living man either particular Favourite or private the heartie devotion which I bear my Lords nor the tender affection which I beare to my friends never as yet hath nor never shall have power to make me forget that reverence wherewith I am obliged unto Princes or that respect whereof I am a debtor to all men As for my writings they are not figurativelie but literally to be interpreted nor have they anie breath but what they breath I write not after the Aegyptian manner nor have I said but what I say And since I am not willing to say that which I have not said be pleased not to make mee say what I say not I seriouslie protest that if anie for what cause soever be moved to write against mee my purpose is to afford him no answer for if he write against what I have faid either that I have said will defend it selfe or else it will not merit a defence and then if he write against what I have not said it nothing belong unto me to defend it For a Conclusion be advertised Reader that the book is not yet finished nor indeed can I desire to
loving to Councell to assist to comfort and to hearken I would set down multitudes of glorious examples but because they are many I will let them all alone because I would carry away the garland for brevity There is nothing more desired or more deare to the people then audience and there is no Officer that can give it more or ought to give it more then he that is most just Some there are the which I know not whether through zeale of justice or ruggednesse of nature do heare with little patience and answer with little love such as they will not listen unto whereas indeed they should have been harkned unto patienly and sweetly comforted it is necessary to shew love to all being merry with them that have what they would have compassionating others that want of their riches to the end that the gainers may ascribe the obligation of their gaining to their favours and the loosers may lay it only on necessity They are no competent givers of audience that do not do that which is just for when they are assailed by the powerfull reasons of such as are concern'd they are compel'd to dismisse them with an I will have it so Whereupon afterwards the offended subjects call them and by good reason call them the Willers of wrong because they will in as much as because they would they wronged them But the Lord Duke who doth hold in his hand the ballances of Astraea as well in matters of favour as of justice doth easily pacifie such as he accepts against making them to know that they are either overcome by merit or by law I know not what to say of the Prince I might happily say that of him that I say of the Favourite that he hath not only an uprightnesse in the administration of justice but that he hath no lesse in the granting of courtesies Man is of himself a reasonable creature but when he deprives himself of justice he layes aside his reason and is but only a creature The friends of the Favourite are to be such as merit and such to be most his friends that merit most the friendship that is grounded without reason may be said not to be without unlawfull appetite and because it is not without passion it is not without reason man hath not so much liberty to have as he thinks he hath If we should not love God above all things wee should sinne and if we love such as merit little we may erre it is a great matter certainly that charges are unjustly given to such sometimes that are to administer justice I will not call this a liberty to do favours but a licenciousnesse and an abuse which makes a great confusion in the world the greatest honour doth of justice belong to him which is of greatest worth as the greatest punishment is his due by justice that is the greatest offendour and questionlesse if there could be found ballances which should weigh merits as there are some to weigh transgressions I should wonder why justice should be painted onely with the sword in her right hand and not likewise with Cities Kingdomes and Monarchies that she may as it were weigh them not to the end to reward merits but to the end to punish offences If all Kingdomes could have such a Favourite as this which would as diligently weigh deserts as failings and that he would take away that false liberty of granting favours which doth so much harme and procures so much hatred to the Prince how would they be without confusion without laments and alwaies full of worthy men and happy but it may be this is not in use because Princes would not be known to be necessitated either to be of more value then others or to hold the Principallity unjustly or els to lay it down The Lord Duke is so easie to pardon injuries and so much an enemy to revenge himselfe that many have thought it reason of state to be his Enemies there was a principall man who upon no occasion of his nor for any just reason had a pistoll prepared to kill him and having confest this with many other faults deserving death the Lord Duke did make his punishment to be chang'd into a long imprisonment from thence he got means to get free yet left he not the wickednesse of his heart but being discovered he was forc't to hast him out of Spaine to get into another Kingdome where he was imprisoned The Lord Duke having notice of it he dispatched a post to the Officers of the King to let him remain there for if he were remanded into Spaine he could not be able to save him from death I do relate this but by the Dukes leave I do not commend it for he that hates without occasion hates without reason he hates by nature nay rather against nature he takes not away such a mans hatred that takes not away his life to pardon such whose natures are Enemies to nature may be magnanimity but not to punish them is injustice it is the will of God that man pardon man here in this world but not so as he doth in heaven if the offended pardon the offence his purpose is that the Judge should punish it whereas if God pardon it in heaven he cannot punish it because he himselfe is the Iudge and the party offended but in the world although man may pardon yet will he that the Judge punisheth because He for his part is not the selfe-same He that punisheth in the world that is offended in Heaven and to the end that the same man in the behalfe of man may not be lesse that is offended then he that punisheth he calls the Iudge ●y the name of God to the end peradventure to make us know that he doth not punish as man but as God To returne evill for good is a notable errour yet that is not it which ruines the world for it is very seldome done it is too great injustice it is odious it is ingratitude it is blamed of all because the example of it is prejudiciall to all it is reason of State to hinder it and to hate it They that expect benefits and all expect them would loose the hope of receiving any if by frequent ingratitudes the minds of such as do favours should be abused To render evill for evill which seems ● lesse errour is oftentimes praised is alwaies as it were borne withall and is that which hath brought in revenge and revenge is that which ruines the world The Judge cannot render Evill for Evill when he cuts of a limbe or takes away life he doth justice for injustice he doth good for ill Man sinneth in doing either because he doth it when he ought not or because he doth it not as he ought or that he doth more then he ought Plants are not untamed a savage they are the beasts that are so they are so because they have a sensitive soule men are more savage because because besides the