if anie of her members departe from the rule of faith will preferre the loue of truth before the loue of vnitie She knowes that the supreme lawe in the howse of God is the sinceritie of heauélie doctrine which if anie one forsake he forsakes Christ who is truth it self he forsakes the Church which is the 〈◊〉 foundation of truth VVith such separatistes a man truly Catholique neither will nor maic communicate Far what agreement is there betweene Christ and 〈◊〉 THE REPLIE HEERE his Maiestie must giue me leaue to saie that he changeth the way of his disputation and goes out of the lists quite from the state of the question For the question is not whether to obtaine the name of Catholicke to attaine to saluation it be necessary to be vnited with anie one of the members of the Church when it comes to be separated frō truth but whether to obtaine the name of Catholicke attaine to saluation it be necessatie to be vnited with the whole masse vniuersall Bodie of this Church which the Fathers haue called Catholick Neither is it the question whether there may be anie externall and visible societie wherewith it is vnlawfull to commuuicate but whether such a tyme can be wherein there is noe externall and visible Societie wherewith it is necessary to communicate For to saic that all Communion are not to be desired and that there are Congregations wherewith it is not lawfull to Communicate whieh of vs euer doubted it Nay contrarily doe we not daily pronounce anathema against those that Communicate with heretickes or Schismatickes and in that we 〈◊〉 his maiestie to returne to the Communion of the Catholicke Church from that of the Caluinists doth it not proue sufficiently that we holde not that there should be Cōm union helde with all kinde of sects The state thē of the questiō to ouerthrowe our Thesis and cōclude some thinge against vs requires not to proue that there may be Societies wherewith we ought to haue noe Cōmunion for who denies that but to proue that there may come a tyme wherein there can be found noe externall and visible Societie wherewith it is lawfull to communicate and that this tyme beinge come as Luther supposed it to be when he began to pitch his ensignes in the fielde it is necessary to goe forth from all the Religions that are then to be found visible in the world and to make a new Communion and a congregation a parte See heere what is needefull to be proued and in steede of this the excellent kinge aleageth that if anie member of the Church departe from the rule of Faith the Church must preserr the loue of veritie before the loue of vnitie To this answere of his 〈◊〉 we will answere two thinges the first that there is noe incompatibilitie beweene this thesis we must be vnited with the vniuersall bodie of the Catholicke Church And this antithesis if anie member departe from the rule of faith we must not be vnited with it For the one speakes of the bodie of the Church and the other speakes of some one of the members of the Church and the speciall mention os some one of the Church departing from the true faith supposes the staie and perseuerāce of the rest of the bodie of the Church in the faith Now it is with that bodie from whence that parte that forsakes the faith deuides it selfe that wee say we must haue Communion and vnitie and not with the parte that separates it selfe from the bodie for it is not a meanes to maintaine vnitie to haue vnitie with those that deuide themselues from vnitie The second that there is great difference betweene the rightes and 〈◊〉 of the Catholicke Church the preuiledges of particular Churches For the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost was neuer promised to euery particular Church but to the bodie of the Catholicke Church And therefore as the elements are corruptible in their partes but incorruptible in their all soe the Church is corruptible in her parts but incorruptible in her all in such sorte that though some particular Churches may erre in faith and consequentlie cease from beinge Churches neuerthelesse there alwaies remaines one masse of a Churche exempt 〈◊〉 corruptiō soe greate and eminent that she representes and conserues in herselfe the beinge rightes and prerogatiues of all the whole And soe the obligation that we haue to Communicate with the Catholicke Church is one thinge and an other the obligation that we haue to Communicate with particular Churches For with her wee are bound to Communicate necessarily and absolutely vnder paine of anathema and damnation because out of her Communion none can be saued and with others onely whiles they Communicate with her And the pretence of truth cannot be alleadged to make this obligation conditionall since Saint Paule saith the Church is the fouudation of truth And Saint AVGVSTINE within the wombe of the Church truth hath her dwellinge Nor can it be obiected that the supreme lawe in the howse of God is the sinceritie of heauenly Doctrine For besides that this lawe hath her Statutes written and vnwritten following this precept of S. PAVL followe the traditions that you haue receiued from vs whether by wordes or by Epistles And this testimonie of Eusebius The Apostles haue giuen some things by writing and others by vnwritten lawes And this obseruation of sainct CHRYSOSTOME From whence it appeares that the Apostles haue not deliuered all things by writinges but manie things alsoe without writing it is not only necessary in matters contested to haue a lawe but it is needefull besides the lawe to haue a iudge with authoritie able to oblige and subdue the sense of particular persons to interpret the wordes of the lawe which Iudge as we haue alreadie demonstrated cā be noe other but the Church How to vnderstand these wordes of sainct Gregory Nazianzene There is a sacred warre CHAP. XIV The continuance of the Kings Answere THE Church then must flye the communion of those and saie with sainct Gregory Nazianzene that a 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 is better then an infected vnitie And will not doubt to pronoūce with the same blessed Father that there is a sacred warie THE REPLIE THERE is noe doubt of prouing that there may be some societie whose communion must be auoided for none denies it but of prouing that there may come such a tyme wherein there is noe externall and visible societie wherewith we are bounde to cōmunicate Now the places that his Maiestie citeth out of S. GREGORIE NAZIANZENE are soe farre from insinuatinge anie such thing as they affirme the quite contrary For S. GREGORIE saith not these wordes against the externall and visible Communion of the Church of his tyme but against the craftie practises of the Arrians which demaūded vnder pretence of peace to be receiued into the communion of the Church with Confessions of the faith ambiguous and
without him in Coūcells And then when the conditiōs requisit for the libertie of a Councell shall be resolued vpō what fruite cā be drawne from it if it be not agreed before it be assembled that all that is decreed there must be holdē for infallible For if after such a Councell shall haue bene celebrated it rest still in the choyce of euery particular person to iudge whether the Councell shall haue iudged conformablie to the word of God who knowes not that this is not to submitt their iudgment to a Councell but to submitt a Councell to their iudgement and so to 〈◊〉 things noe further aduanced after the celebration of a Councell then before Now how is it that those who hold that the vniuersall Church may erre should hold that the authoritie of a generall Councell should be infallible which hath noe authoritie of infallibillitie but in as much as it represents the vniuersall Societie of the visible Church where of it is the voice and organ and of all the pastors where of it beares with it the tacit deputation And how can those hold that the vniuersall Church should be infallible cannot erre that hold that indeede she hath erred and that after soe manie ages there was noe visible part of the Church which hath not bene plunged in a pitt of errors repugnant to saluation and contrarie to faith But whether his maiesties offers ought to be examined in a formall Councell or in a verball conference wee are readie to assist at it and to shew that the English Church in pointes contested betweene vs and her hath neither Succession nor Similitude of doctrine with the Church of the time of the first Councells Of the reduction of the Disputation to the State of the Question CHAP. XXV The continuance of the Kinges answere THe English Church is readie to yeeld an accompt of her Faith and to proue by effect that the designe of the Authors of the Reformation vndertaken in this Prouince hath not bene to build anie new Church as the ignorant and malicious haue slandered her but to re-establish her that was fallen in the best manner that might bee THE REPLIE IT is not the question in the proceeding that wee haue framed to knowe whether the ayme of the Authors of the Reformatiō of England hath bene to make a new Church or to restore that which was fallen and to sett it vp againe in a better forme although the subsequent words of his maiestie where he saith that the action of the English Church hath bene a returne to the ancient Catholick Faith and a conuerfion to Christ the onlie master of the Church testifie that it hath bene a new refection and re-edification of the Church For noe it hath bene a new refection and re-edification of the Church For noe Societie in whose faith there is an auersion from Christ and from the ancient Catholicke beleefe can possesse the beeing and the name of a Church But in Summe howsoeuer it be it is not that that is the question in the proceeding that we haue framed but only to knowe whether the Catholicke Church when the English portion separated it selfe from her had so degenerated from the ancient Carholicke Church which was in the tyme of the first fower Councells in thinges importing the ruine of Saluation and the destruction of the being of the Church as she was noe more the same Church as she had bene in the time of those ages And consequently that it was noe more necessarie to obtaine the title of Catholicke and the participation of Saluation to communicate with her but contrariwise was necessarie to be seperated from her and not to commnnicate with her It is that that is the question it is that whereabout we must combat and to shewe some condition some doctrine or custome holden in the Catholicke Church at this daie that may be pretended to be repugnant to saluation and which destroyes the being of the true Church that hath not bene in the Catholicke Church in the time of the fower first Councells Of the inuention of order in the iustification of the reformation before the proofe of the Deformation CHAP. XXVI The continuance of the Kings answere NOw they haue iudged amongst the best that which had bane giuen by the Apostles to the breeding Church and which had bene in practise in the age neerest them THE REPLIE NEither is it the question of what they haue iudged but of the change that is happened betweene the ancient Catholicke Church and the morderne and of the importance of this change that is to saie whether there be happened anie change betweene the estate of the ancient Church the estate of the Church of the last ages of such importance as for that people might be permitted to separate themselues from her communion Which cannot be if some thinge haue not bene taken awaie from the forme of the antient Church which was necessarie to saluation or added thereto which was rèpugnant to saluation For if the moderne Catholicke Church were yet the same Church in matters of Faith and saluation as it was in the time of the fowre first Councells whatsoeuer reformation they haue pretended to make hauing separated themselues from her they cannot possesse the title of Catholicke whereof the question is nor obtaine saluation for as much as saith S. IRENEVS No reformation can be made that is of such importance as the crime of schisme is 〈◊〉 Besides It must bee first determined whether the Catholick Church were deformed in matters of faith and saluation before the English Church can be thought to be reformed in being seperated from her For the English Church could not seperate herselfe from the Catholick Church whereunto before she was ioyned in communion if first it did not appeare to her by proofes necessatie and demōstratiue that saluation could not be obtained in the Catholicke Church that is to saie she coulde not proceede to reforme her selfe in separating herselfe from her whole till it must first appeare to her that the whole from whence she separated her selfe were deformed and with a deformation incompatible with saluatiō Now that could not appeare that betweene the antient Catholicke Church of the time of the first fowre councells which wee on both sides graunt to be the true Church and whereof there remaines to vs monuments sufficient to instruct vs of the integritie of her doctrine and of her Sacraments and ceremonies and the Catholicke Church of this time there had happened opposition in matters importing gaine or losse of Saluation And therefore it is to that time that we must cōfront the state of the Church of this time and not leaue the ages of the fowre first Councells of whose estate wee haue more light and monuments then of the preceding ages to goe vp to those of whose estate we 〈◊〉 recourse not to finde therein more conformitie but to finde therein lesse instruction For as for the Church in the time of the Apostles
besides that antiquitie affirmes that the Apostles haue giuen manie thinges by tradition vnwritten to their disciples his maiestie himselfe testifies that he is farr frō their opinion that beleeue the vniuersall historie of the primitiue Church to be all contained in the sacred but onlie little Booke of the Actes of the Apostles Of the indefectibilitie of the Church CHAP. XXVII The continuance of the Kings answere THE King Confesseth that his Church hath separated her selfe in manie points from the faith and discipline that the Roman Bishop doth at this daie hold and defēd with might and mayne But the King and the English Church 〈◊〉 not interpret that to be a defection from the antient Catholicke saith but rather a returne to the antient Catholicke faith which in the Roman Church had bene admirablie deformed in manie kindes and a conuersion to Christ the only master of the Church THE REPLIE AND euen this confirmes our intention to know that there is at this daie noe Catholicke Church a thing directly against Gods promises or that this that wee haue is shee For there could be noe other Catholicke Church but her that was in the time of the first 〈◊〉 Councells Now shee if shee haue bene interrupted and she hath bene soe if ours which hath succeeded her haue bene wanting in faith and in vnion with Christ without which a Societie cannot be a Church the English Church which succeedes her not by an vninterrupted continuance cannot be the same Church For what Aristotle saith of Common-wealths may also be said of the Church to witt that when a common-wealth hath interrupted the successiue continuance of her being it is noe more one common wealth in number but an other common-wealth Soe if the antient Catholicke Church hath interrupted the successiue continuance of her beeing she is noe more one and not being one shee is noe more a Church for the Church is one or none And therefore the Fathers cry out that if the Church be once perished she can noe more be borne againe If in S. CYPRIANS time saith saint AVGVSTINE the Church perished from what Heauen it Donatus fallen from what Sea came hee forth what earth hath sprunge him vp For to saie that the English Church accounts not her separation from the faith and from the discipline of the Pope a defection from the antient Catholicke faith but a returne to the antient Catholicke faith and a conuersion to Christ is not the question viz. whether the English Church be conuerted to the antient Catholicke Faith For as it hath bene aboue shewed the name of catholicke is not a name of simple beleefe but of cōmunion By meanes whereof the English Church might haue all Faith euen to the remouing of mountaines yet if she communicated not with the Catholicke Church she could neither obtaine the title of Catholicke nor the reward of life eternall but should be schismaticall and excluded from saluation And therefore the state of the question in this which is presented is not whether the English Church be return'd to the true faith but whether the Church which possesseth at this daie the name of the Catholicke Church hath lost the being of the Catholicke Church which she cannot haue done if in things important to saluation and constructiue or destructiue to the being of a Church she haue not varied from that of the time of the fowre first Councells which wee on both sides confesse to haue bene the true Church that is to saie if she haue not taken awaie from the practise of the Church of those ages some thing necessarie to saluation and without which saluation cannot be obtained or if she haue not added to the practise of that Church something repugnant to saluation and with which life eternall cannot be obtained From whence it appeares that the office of the English Church in this question is to shew not that she hath returned to the ancient Faith which would alwaies exact the necessitie of a preceding dispute to witt that the Church from whence she went out hath diuerted her selfe from it for the proofe of the auersion should precede the proofe of reuersion but that the Church which wee at this daie intitle Catholicke hath soe diuerted her selfe from the faith of the Church of the time of the fowre first Councells which both they and wee hold to haue bene the true Church as she hath lost being and the iust title of a Church and that saluation can noe more be obtained in her And our office is contrariwise to maintaine that the Church which is at this daie differs not in anie thinge that can destroy saluation and make her loose the beeing and the title of a true Church from the ancient Catholicke Church and that all the points that our Aduersaries obiect against vs as such and for which they take occasion to separate themselues from vs vnder pretence that in our communion Saluation cannot be obtained haue bene holden by the ancient Church Of the sense wherein the Fathers haue intended that their doctrine had bene holden from the beginning CHAP. XXVIII The continuance of the Kinges answere AND therefore if anie one in consequence of this obseruation Will inferr from thence that the English Church because she reiects some of the decrees of the Roman Church is departed from the antient Catholicke Church the King Will not graunt him that till hee haue first proued by solid reasons that all things that the Roman teach haue bene approued from the beginning and ordained by the antient Catholicke Church And that noe man can doe this now nor in the time to come at the least that till nowe noe bodie hath done it is a thing é as certaine to the king and to the Prelats of the English Church as that the Sunn shines à t noone daies THE REPLIE NEITHER is it the question as I haue alreadie manie times said whether the English Church haue departed from the doctrine of the antient Catholicke Church but whether our Church be soe farr strayed from the doctrine of the antient Church as she can noe more be reputed one felfe same Church with the antient Church and that we can noe more communicate with her without losse of Saluation For if she be still the same Church and that amongst the conditions vnder the obligation whereof her communion is participated there be noe doctrine nor custome which is opposite to Saluation it is certaine that out of her Societie though one should haue Faith sufficient to remoue mountaines yet they can neither possessé the Saluation nor title of the Catholicke Church Neither is it the question to knowe whether all thinges that the Roman Church holdes and principallie those which she holdes to be necessary for Saluation haue bene holden by antiquitie and in this qualitie which would be a longe and thornie disputation because of the diuersitie of the acceptions of the word necessarie vnder the ambiguitie whereof there would alwaies remaine a thousand cauills and
baptized can come to the remission of originall sinne And of this kinde of necessitie the examples are in small number I call that conditionall necessitie which obligeth not but in case of possibilitie and receiues exception of place time and persons and that againe hath diuers branches For first in regard of Faith there are manie points that are necessarie to be beleeued if a man be in place where he may be instructed in them or who hath time to be informed of them which are not necessary for a man that liues in a wildernesse or so pressed with the instant of death as he hath noe leasure to receiue instruction as that Christ was borne of a virgin that he was Crucified vnder Pontius Pilate that hee rose againe the third daie And manie thinges are necessary to be beleeued and holden for pointes of Faith either by the bodie of the Church in generall or by the order of the ministers and pastors which are the eyes of the Church which are not necessary for euery particular person to knowe and hold to be points of Faith as that the persons of the Trinitie are the same in essence and distinct in subsistence that the Father hath begotten the sonn necessarily and not freely that they are the diuine persōs which produce and are produced and not the essence which doth neither produce nor is produced that the workes of the trinitie without are vndiuided that the only persō of the sonn hath been incarnate and not anie of the others that in Christ there are two substances and one subsistence that the diuinitie was not to him in the steede of a soule but that besides his Bodie and his diuinitie he had a Soule sensible and reasonable that what he once tooke in hypostaticall vnion hee hath not abandoned that the diuell was created good and made hinself euill by the freedome of his will and other such like And in regard of action there are manie things necessarie in case of possibilitie and according to the oportunity of places times and persons which are not absolutely necessarie when the commoditie to accomplish them is wanting as the assistance at Church Seruice the actuall participation of the Eucharist And manie are necessarie to some as mission and imposition of handes to the Pastors of the Church and marriage to those that will haue issue which are not necessary to others And in breefe some thinges are necessary to obtaine Saluation others some to obtaine it more easilie for ones-selfe and others to procure and mediate it for other men some for the constitution of the Church and others for the edification and more ample propagation of the Church some for the simple being of Christian Religion others for the better being that is to saie for the comlynesse dignitie and splendour of Christian Religion I call necessitie of meanes that that is in behalfe of the thinges them selues as that of Sacraments to which god hath graunted power to Conferr some grace and reall operation to saluation that of the Commandementes of the morall lawe whose necessitie is imposed vpon vs by the law of nature that of repenting sins which is a meanes necessarie to obtaine their remission I call necessitie of precept that which is only obligatorie in regard of the Commaundement as the celebration of the first daie of the weeke in memorie of that wherein our lord did rise againe which wee for that cause call our Lords daie and other such like obseruations the omission whereof could be noe hindrance to Saluation but in respect of disobedience and breach of the Commaundement I call necessitie of speciall beleefe that of thoses pointes which all Faithfull if they be not preuented by death are obliged to beleeue with faith expresse distinct and determinate which the Schoolemen call explicit faith as the twelue articles of the Creede I call necessitie of generall beleefe that of those thinges which euery particular man is not obliged to beleeue with a distinct ad explicite faith as the doctrine of originall sin the article or the two wills in Christ the article that the holy Ghost proceedes frō the Father and from the Sonne the beleefe that Baptisme giuē forth of the Church prouided it be in the forme of the Church is true Baptisme and that heretickes which haue receiued Baptisme must not be rebaptised when they returne to the Church and other such like when the simple sort of faithfull people are not obliged to beleeue with a distinct and explicit faith but it sufficeth that they beleeue them generallie in the Faith of the Church that is to saie that they adhere to the Church that beleeues them by whose faith they liue whiles they remaine in her Communion as Children liue by their mothers nourishmēt whilst they are in her bowells I call necessitie of act that of those thinges which euerie particular person is obliged to execute actuallie as to Confesse the name of Christ to forgiue offences done to them to restore the Goods of an other man I call necessitie of approbation that of those thinges which euerie particular man is not bound to execute actuallie but onlie not to contradict them and not to condemne those that doe them nor the church that approoues thē ad not to separate thēselues frō her vpō this occasiō vpō paine of separating themselues frō their owne saluation as the choice to liue in virginitie and single life and other the like Of all which kindes of necessitie the Fathers haue hold 〈◊〉 manie thinges euerie one according to it is degree diuerslie necessarie to saluation as wee shall make manifest in those occasions that will offer themselues wherein to examine them it is not to be conformable to the ancient beleefe and practise of the catholicke church to hold the pointes of doctrine or actiō that the Fathers haue holden to be necessary to saluation according to some of these kindes of necessitie and to reiect the others but to conforme our selues to the ancient beleefe and catholick practise we must hold for necessary to saluation all those things that the Fathers haue holden to be necessarie to saluation in that degree and according to those kindes of necessitie as they haue holden them The fowrth obseruation is vpon the word FATHERS which some when it comes to the effect of their promise to submit themselues to the iudgment of antiquitie would restraine to the first or second age after the Apostles not that they hope to finde in that space of time anie thing in their behalfe but because the Church being then oppressed with persecutions there remaines to vs so fewe writinges of that date and those against persons and about points for the most part so differing from the disputations of this present age as the face of the ancient doctrine and practise of the Church cannot euidentlie appeare to be therein represented Now equitie would that being to compare the state of the Societies of this age wich pretend to the title of
the Catholick Church with the state of the ancient Church wee should looke to take such a time wherein not only our competitors might agree with vs that the Church of the Fathers was still the true Church the true Spouse of Christ she in whom resided the lawfull authoritie to iudge questions in Religion but also those monuments doe sufficiently remaine to vs to manifest throughly all her doctrines and all her obseruations Which can neuer be better chosen for both partes then in the time wherein the fower first Councells were holden that is to saie from the Emperour Constantine who was the first Emperour that was publicklie a Christian to the Emperour Marcian And it seemes to me that his Maiestie hath yielded to this and also more liberallie in some of his writinges hauing extended this space to the first fiue ages For besides that the deliuerie from the yoake and subiection of the Pagans then gaue the Church meanes to speake lowder and to haue more communication with all her partes situated in so manie different regions of the earth and to flourish in a greater multitude of learned and excellent writers which is the cause that there remaine to vs without comparison more monuments of those ages wherein to view the entire forme of the ancient Christian Religion then of the former ages Besides this I saie our aduersaries cannot denie but that church which nursed vp the first Christian Emperours which rooted out the Temples and seruices of the false Gods which exercised the Soue raigne Tribunall of Spirituall authoritie vpon earth by the condemnation which she denounced vpon the fowre most famous heresies in the fowre first generall Councells which were the fowre first Parliaments and Estates generall of Christs Kingdome must bee she of whom it hath bene foretold that Kinges should be her nursing Fathers that the nations should walke in her light and Kings in the brightnes of her rising that euery engine sett vp against her should be destroyed that she should iudge euery tongue that should resist her in iudgment that God had sett watchmen vpon her walles which neuer should be silent by daie or night that the gates of hell should not preuaile against her that whosoeuer should not obey her should be holden for a heathen and a publican and in breefe that she was the Pillar and foundation of truth Shall we loubt Sayth S. Augustin who liued in the betweene-times of these first fowre Councells to sett our-selnes in the lapp of that Church which by succession of Bishops from the seate of the Apostles euen to the confession of all mankinde the hereticks in vaine barking about her and being condemned partlie by the iudgment of the people themselues part lie by the grauitie of Councells and partlie by the maiestie of Miracles hath obtained full authoritie to whom not to giue the preheminence must be an act of extreame impietie or of a headie arrogancie And againe The Catholick Church fighting against all heresies may be opposed but she cannot be ouerthrowne all heresies are come forth from her as vnprofitable branches cutt From their vine but she remains in her roote in her vine in her charitie Let that then bee holden for trulie anciēt and marked with the character of the primitiue Church which shall be found to haue bene beleeued and practised vniuersallie by the Fathers which liued in the time of the first fowre Councells and principallie when it shall appeare to vs that the things testified to vs by the authors of those ages were not holden by them for doctrines or obseruations sprung vp in their time but for doctrines or obseruations which had bene perpetuallie practised in the Church from the age of the Apostles although perchance there can not be found for euerie of them in particular so expresse testimonies in the former ages as in those of the first fowre Councells because of the fewe writinges which the persecution of those times haue suffered to come to our handes For it sufficeth to assure vs of the perpetuall vse of such thinges that the Fathers of the first fower Councells who had more knowledge of the ages before them then wee can haue doe testifie to vs to haue beleeued and practised them not as thinges instituted in their age but as thinges that haue alwaies had place in the Church and had come to them by a succession of obseruation from the Apostles downe to their time and that there is not to be found in former authors anie testimony against them but contrariwise in all places where there is occasion to mention them agreable and fauorable testimonies that is to saie in breefe that is to be holden ancient by vs which those whom we account ancient haue themselues holden to be ancient The fifth obseruation is vpon the consent of the beleefe of the Fathers which some contentious spirits would haue to be when one selfesame thing is actuallie found in the writings of all the Fathers which is an vniust and impertinent pretence For to haue a doctrine or obseruation to bee trulie holden by the Fathers for vniuersall and Catholicke it is not necessarie it should be in the writinges of all the Fathers who haue not all written of the same matters and of whose writinges all haue not come to our handes but there are two other lawfull waies to secure our selues of them The one is when the most eminent Fathers of euery country agree in the affirmation of the same doctrine or practise and that none of the others that haue bene without note of dissention from the Church haue opposed it As when S. Augustin hath cited against the Pelagians the testimonie of eleuen eminent Fathers all consenting in one and the same doctrine he supposeth hee hath sufficientlie produced against them the Common beleefe of the Catholicke Church and when the Councell of Ephesus had produced tenn Fathers of former ages they conceiued they had sufficiently expressed the consent of the former Church against Nestorius his doctrine Because none saith Vincentius Lerinensis doubtetb but that those tenn did trulie hold the same with al their other bretheren The other is when the Fathers speake not as Doctors but as witnesses of the Customes and practise of the Curch of their times and doe not saie I beleeue this should be soe holden or so vnderstood or so obserued but that the Church from one end of the earth to the other beleeues it so or obserues it soe For then we noe longer hold what they saie for a thing said by them but as a thing said by the whole Church and principallie when it is in pointes whereof they could not be ignorant either because of the Condition of the thinges as in matters of fact or because of the sufficiencie of the persons and in this case wee argue noe more vpon their wordes probablie as wee doe when they speake in the qualitie of particular Doctors but we argue therevpon demonstratiuelie That then
learne from her what the true lawes of the Christian Religion are and what ought to be theire true sence and vnderstandinge Of the Examples vvhich vve haue from the practise of the Apostles CHAP. VII The continuance of the Kings answere And that the Sacraments are duely and lawfullie administred that is to saie as the Apostles haue shewed the example and those who haue next succeeded them THE REPLIE It is true the due and lawfúll administration of the Sacraments is that they be administred as the Apostles haue shewed the example and those which haue next succeeded them but that the examples that the Apostles haue tracked to vs for patternes and myrrors to imitate are not all contained in theire Writinges Saint AVGVSTINE teacheth vs when he saith There are manie thinges which are belieued by good right to haue bene recieued by tradition from the Apostles though we finde them not written And Saint CHRISOSTOME when he proclaymed The Apostles haue not giuen vs all thinges by writinge but manie things also vnwritten And Saint Basile when he protests Wee haue somethinges in written doctrine and other some we haue receiued in misterie that is to saie rituall and vnwritten obseruations efrom the tradition of the Apostles And Saint Epiphanius when he faith All thinges cannot be taken from the Scriptures and therefore the holy Apostles of God haue giuen vs somethings by writinge and other some by tradition And his maiesty himselfe when he answeres that he is farr from the opinion of those that would shutt vp all the historie of the primitiue Church into the sacred indeed but yet one onely booke of the Acts of the Apostles And as for the Authors which haue followed next after the first persecution of the pagan Emperors vnder whom they lived which gaue them much lesse leasure to write then those had that flourished after the tēpest and in the tyme of the first peace of the Church and then the very state of the most part of the controuersies of theire ages employed either against the pagans or against the Iewes or against heresies much differing from those which are since risen vp and thirdly the shipwracke of theire workes which the flood of the same persecution hath soe swallowed vp as the least part of them is come to our handes And finallie the care that the authors which succeeded them haue had to reduce into writing the thinges which they haue receiued from them by vnwritten tradition And by succession of custome tyme out of mynde witnes enough how much wee must want of being able to perceaue by the relicks of theire writinges that followed next after the age of the Apostles 〈◊〉 the tracts and lineaments of the face of the auncient Church And therfore equitie wills and the most excellent King who is equitie it-selfe consents to it that not only the monuments which remaine to vs from the first or second age after the Apostles shall be receiued as testimonies of the state of the primitiue Church but also the writinges of the Fathers of the third and fourth age after that of the Apostles and principally when they speake of the customes of the Church of theire tymes not as of things of a new institutiō but as of things come to them from the vniuersall and immemoriall practise of fore-goeinge ages For behold his Maiestiés answere vpon this article this demaunde will seeme to 〈◊〉 little equitie to those that would that all the historie of the primitiue Church should be contained within the diuine indeed but yet onely one booke and that a litle one of the Acts of the Apostles From theire opinion the most iust aud wise king is very farr who in his monitory epistle hath ingenuously declared how much hee esteemeth the Fathers of the fowrth nay euen of the fifth age Of the definition of the Church and in what vnion it consists The continuance of the Kings answere THe Churches that are instituted in this manner it is necessary that they should be vnited amongst them selues 〈◊〉 diuers kindes of communion THE REPLIE THose that obserue the proprieties ofliuing creatures affirme that the nest of the Halciō is wouē and built in such a symmetrie that is to saie the entrie of it is so fitted and equald to the measure of the birdes bodie that it can serue for no other bird either greater or lesse A definition must be iustlie soe it must cōprehend exactly the thing thereby defined without stretching it selfe to anie thing more or restrayning it selfe to anie thing lesse it must be fitt it must agree only with the subiect thereof And therefore ARISTOTLE writes that to frame a definition is verie difficult and to destroy one is contrariwise verie easie for to establish a good definition all the conditions that limitt and inclose the nature of the subiect must meete together and to confute it it is sufficient that anie one be wanting And for this cause Plato saith that if he could haue found a man that knew how to define and deuide well he wold haue cast himselfe at his feete to adore him For definition is an Epitomie and abridgement of the intire knowledge of euery thing which is reduced and epitomized from the more ample consideracon of the 〈◊〉 and accidents which accompanie it to that which is precisely of the essence there of iust in such sort as in the constitution of the numbers which the philosophers propound for types and patternes of essentiall formes euerie addition or substraction be it neuer soe little varies the being and the caracter and destroyes the precise species or kind of the number so in the iust turne of wordes and in the lawfull reuolution of language whereby the essence of euery thing should be bounded as in an horizon or bourning line all additiō or omissiō of wordes ruineth and destroyeth the definition For when the definition aboundes saith DAMASCENF in the excesse of wordes it wants in the conception of things and when it wants in sufficiencie of wordes it is superfluous in the extent and cōprehension of things Wherein as he addes nature hath inuented a merueilous arte to witt a plentifull pouertie and an indigent and defectiue plentie Now as Aristotle notes those are the worst seruantes that steale the corne not out of the garner but from thence where it is kept for seede because this theft is measured not by the quantity of the thing stolne but by the vsury and multiplicatiō of the returne or income depending theron so the errors which are cōmitted in principles which are as the seede corne of cōclusios are more pernicious and hurtfull then those that are cōmitted in anie other part of doctrine For in other parts the faults may be particular but the vices in principles amongst which the definitiō holdes the Scepter and Empire are necessarily cōmunicated to all the bodie of the disputatiō And therefore Clemēs Alex. cries out that the ignorance of
For first the word Ecclesia Church is deriued from a verbe which signifies to call and not to predestinate frō whence S. Paul confirming the vse of this etymology inscribes his first to the Corinthians To the Saints called And in the epistle to the Ephes. he saith One bodie and one Spirit as you are called in one hope of your vocatiō And in the epist. to the Coloss. Lett the peace of Christ rule in your harts by which you are called in one-selfe bodie And secondly the Church is a Societie and there is this difference betweene a simple multitude and a societie that the societie adds to the partes of the multitude a condition and a certaine caracter as it were in vertue whereof they may cōmunicate together Now predestination as it is simple predestination puts nothing into the persons of the predestinate and is not made in them but in God only and by consequent doth not make them actually partes of the Church Our predestination saith S. AVGVST is not made in vs but in God the three other things are made in vs vocation iustification and glorification For that that is alleadged out of saint Paul that God knowes those that are his and hath marked them with his signet must be vnderstood that he hath marked the predestinate in himselfe that is to saie in his eternall determination and not in them as an Architect who designes in his spirit certaine stones that he will imploy in his building markes thē not by this mentall designation in them but in himselfe and makes thē not by this simple determinatiō actuall partes of his building I meane to be briefe that the vniō that cōstitutes men in the Church is in thē now the vnion that the predestinate haue in God as they are simplie predestinate is not in thē but in God alone And so it is not the vnion of predestination but that of vocatiō that cōstitutes men in the Church Thirdly S. Paul teacheth vs that the Church is the bodie of Christ and that by analogie to an organicall body God saith he constituted him head ouer all the Church which is his bodie And againe I accomplish that which wātes of the passions of Christ in my flesh for his bodie which is the Church Now it is of the essence of an organicall bodie as it is organicall to be composed of diuers offices members and parts If all the members saith S. Paul were one member where should the bodie be And by this reason the schoolemen proue that the heauens are not animated or liuing bodies because they are not organicall bodies and they proue they are not organicall bodies because they are not made vp of heterogeneall and different partes in cōposition and cōplexiō And therefore it is of the essence of the Church to haue distinction of members organs and offices is the Church doth not arise from the hidden and eternall predestinatiō for then the not predestinate could not be ministers and pastors of the Church but from externall and tēporall vocation And by consequent it is in the externall visible and temporall vocation and not in predestination which is internall to God hiddē and eternall that the being and essentiall forme of the Church consists Fowrthly the same Saint Paul saith that God hath tempered the honor of the members that there might be no schisme in the body Now the predestinate are not capable of schisme as they are predestinat but as they are called so it is not predestination but vocation that frames the bodie of the Church Fiftly he affirmes the Church to be our mother the superior Ierusalem saith he that is 〈◊〉 saie Ierusalē taken not accordinge to the lowlynes of the legall 〈◊〉 but according to the height of the Euangelicall sense is free which is our mother And he addes that it is of her that 〈◊〉 writes Reioyce thou barren woman that bringst not forth children Now the Church doth not engēder vs by predestination for God alone is the author of predestination and not the Church but by vocation and consequently it is vocation and not predestination that cōstitutes the Church in the state of a Church mother of the faithfull Moreouer the knowledge of being Children to the mother is before the knowledge of being Children to the father by the interposition of the mothers authoritie saith saint AVG wee are perswaded of the true Father For that that Aristotle writes That in certaine partes of the vpper 〈◊〉 where women were common they discerned the children by the resēblance they had to theire fathers was good for those people where that similitude had place but we in whose nature the image of God is soe defaced by the spott of originall sinne as we can noe more be knowne to be his children by vertue of naturall similitude only there is noe other meanes for vs to pretend to this quality but that we are regenerated by him in our spirituall mother which is the Church his only spouse And for this cause the Ancientes are soe carefull to saie that he shall not haue God for his Father that denies the Church for his mother and that if any be out of the Church he shall be excluded out of the mumber of the children and to exhort the Christians to doe like the Xanthians in taking the Surname of theire mother that is to say the title of Catholicke We receiue the holy Ghost saith Saint AVGVSTINE if we loe the Church if we be knitt in one bodie by charitie if we reioyce in the Catholicke name and faith Now the certaintie of being Children to the Church cannot serue vs for a meanes and path way to come to the perswasion of being the children of God if the definition of the Church consist in the hidden and inuisible secret of predestination For by this definitiō contrarywise we must be assured to be Children of God and comprehended in the Rolle of the predestinate before we can be assured that we are the Children of the Church So the definition of the Church ought to consist not in the hidden and inuisiblie condition of predestination but in the externall and visible condicion of vocation Also we see that our Lord who was the God-father of this Societie and gaue it the name of the Church in that sense that she ought to beare it hath neuer vsed that name neither he nor his Apostles but to designe a visible Societie constituted by externall and temporall vocation For when he saith Vpon this rocke I will builde my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against her And I will giue thee the keyes of the the kingdome of heauen this word in the future tense I will build shewes he speakes of a Church constituted not by prestination which was established from all eternitie but by externall and temporall vocation And the word keyes which signifies the authority of the ministery confirmes it
without obliging him-selfe to the doctrine whereof it makes profession And therefore saint EPIPHAN interpretes iudicially these gates of hell that shall not preuaile against the Church to be heresies the gates of hell said he are heresies and heresieMasters To the second which is that saint PAVL writes you are arriued to heauenly Ierusalem to the Church of the first-borne which are inrolled in heauen Wee answere he speaketh of the Church triumphant to which he writes that we are arriued in the same sorte as he writes our conuerfation is in heauen that is to saie in hope as when a shipp hath cast his ankor on land which is saith saint AVGVSTINE the symbole of hope it is said to be arriued to land though it be yet in the sea and let vs add that the word first-borne signifies there euen by Caluins owne confession the holy Fathers and 〈◊〉 of the old testament Or if saint PAVL speake there of the Church militant and that by the first-borne he intends the predestinate we 〈◊〉 he calls it the Church of the first-borne not because it containes only the elect but because the elect are no where els I meane the elect inuested in the temporall grace of theire election as we call the parliament of Paris the Court of the Peeres not because it containes none but Peeres but because there is noe place els wherein the Peeres are inuested in theire qualitie of Peeres To the third which is taken from this article of the Creede I beleeue in the Catholicke Church we saie it sufficeth that faith be either of inuisible things or of things apprehended vnder inuisible conditions as those are vnder which wee consider the Church when we beleeue her to be the spouse of Christ the temple of God the mansion of the holy Ghost the gate of heauen the treasuresse of spirituall graces Otherwise to beleeue in Christ had not bene an article of faith while our lord was in this world And neuerthelesse he saith Who beleeues not in the sonne is alreadie iudged And when the Councell of Constantinople puts this confession of Faith amongst the articles of the Creede of the Church I beleeue one baptisme in remission of sinnes they must conclude baptisme to be inuisible against the vniuersall condition of Sacraments which is to be visible signes of inuisible graces To the fourth obiection to witt that saint AVGVSTINF writeth that only predestinate Catholiques are true partes of the Church and true members of the bodie of Christ and distinguisheth betweene them which are in the howse and them which are of the howse and betweene the people knowne in the eyes of God and knowne in the eyes of man we haue three solutions The first solution is that saint AVGVSTINE intended not that only Catholiques predestinate were true partes of the Church according to the formall beinge of the Church which is common to all that are called but according to the finall being of the Church that is to the end and in the fruits for which the Church is instituted I meane saint AVGVSTINE did not intend in those places to define the Church formally and by what she is in this world but finally and by what she shall be in the other Euen as he that saith only good Citizens are true partes of a common wealth doth not define a common wealth formally and by what it is in it selfe but finally and by what it is in the intention of the law-maker And he that saith a true haruest is only the corne that is gathered from the strawe and not the strawe wherewth it is mingled defines not a haruest formally and by what it is in the feild or in the barne but finally and by what it will be in the garner We confesse saith saint AVGVST that whicked men are together with the good in the Catholick Church but as Corne and strawe And againe Wicked men may be with vs in the barne but they cannot be with vs in the garner For that sainct AVGVST doth not esteeme that the formall and precise condition that constitutes men in the Church is that of predestination internall to God and eternall but that of externall and temporall vocation he shewes it when he saith vpon saint IOHN None can enter by the gates that is by Christ to life eternall which is in vision if by the same gate that is to saie by the same Christ he be not first entred into his Church which is his sheepefolde to the temporall life which is in faith And in the place already alleadged vpon the psalmes Our predestination is made not in vs but in God the other three things are wrought in vs vocation iustification and glorification And in his writings against Faustus Men can be inserted into noe name of Religion whether true or false but they must be tied by the common participation of some signes or visible Sacraments Contrarywise the verie same saint AVGVST which distinguisheth betweene those in the howse and those of the howse teacheth vs that all Catholickes both predestinate and reprobate are in the howse that is to saie in the Church Those saith he we cannot denie but that they are likewise in the howse and then that the formall condition which 〈◊〉 the Church is vocation and not predestination but that there are none but the predestinate Catholickes which are of the howse that is to 〈◊〉 that are finall peeces inalienable and inseparable from the howse or to speake in termes of lawe that are goodes that the father of the familie vouchsafes to put into the Inuentory of his howse the other being there but for a tyme and as by waie of loane and not to dwell there 〈◊〉 euer For when the Church shall passe from earth to heauen and from the state of mortalitie to immortalitie only predestinate Catholickes shall remaine there and not the others The Church saith he is the 〈◊〉 the seruant is the Sinner now many sinners enter into the Church and therefore our Lord did not saie the Seruant enters not into the howse but he dwelles not for euer in the howse And againe None can blott from heauen the constitution of God nor can anie blott from the earth the Church of God c. She containes good and euill but she looseth none on earth but the euill and admitts none into heauen but the good The second solution is that this distinction of partes of the Church true and not true and of vessells which are in the howse and not of the howse and of people knowne in the eyes of God and knowne in the eyes of men is not a distinction of Religion but a simple distinction of manners which puts difference betweene the one and the other in regarde of the formall being of the Church and of the externall meanes of vocation which are the profession of the true faith the sincere administration of the Sacramentes and the adherence to lawfull
corrected or explained it both in the conference that he had with them in Carthage and in his retractations as there remaines noe more colour to abuse it For Saint AVGVSTINE in his first disputatiōs against the Donatistes finding himself pressed with the arguments that they brought to proue that baptisme could not be giuen by heretickes because heretickes were out of the Church aduised himselfe and particularlie in the worke of the seuen bookes of baptisme from whence this distinction of people knowne in the eyes of God and in the eyes of men is principally taken to helpe himselfe against them not with the formall definition of the Church by which onely infidells and hereticall and Schismaticall Christians are excluded but by the finall definition of the Church that is to saie by the definition of the Church considered according to the finall and future number of those of whom she should be constituted in the other world from which wicked Catholickes are also excluded to the end to inferr from thence against the Donatistes that as euill Catholickes though they were out of the Church defined according to her future permanent and principall being did truly baptise soe heretickes and Schismatickes though they were out of the Church defined according to her present and passant being yet might administer true baptisme And for a foundation of his definition he made vse of Epithetes of Salomon and S. Paul hauing noe spott nor wrinkle and 〈◊〉 her such like elogies of the Church which appertained either to the state of the other world or to the puritie of doctrine But after that the Donatistes abused both this definition and the testimonies from whence it was taken to inferre from thence that the Catholicke Communion which was mingled with wicked men was not the Church he changed his proceding in the conference that he had with them at Carthage and declared that this definition belonged not to the Church considered according to the present and formall being which she hath in this world but accordinge to the future and finall being which she shall haue in the next The Catholicks saith he made it appeare by many testimonies and examples of holy Scriptures that wicked mē are now so mingled in the Church that although Ecclesiasticall discipline ought to be watchfull to correct them both in words and by excommunications and degradations neuerthelesse not onely being hidden they are vnknowne but euen being knowne they are often tollerated for the vnitie of peace and shewed that the testimonies of scriptures did in that manner well agree together to witt that the places whereby the Church is represented with the medly of the wicked signisie the present tyme of the Church as she is in this world and the places whereby she is designed to haue no wicked persons mixt with her signifie the future state of the Church such as she shall eternally haue in the world to come And a little after so the Catholickes refuted the calumny of the two Churches declaring expressely and instantly what they intended to saie to witt that they had not pretended that that Church which is now mingled with wicked men should be an other Church then the kingdome of God that shall haue no wicked pesons in it but that the same one and holy Church is now in one sorte and shall be then in an other now she is compounded of good and wicked men and thē she shall not be soe And in the worke of the Cittie of God made by him after the Conference of Carthage there where the one and other kinde are found that is good euill there the Church is as 〈◊〉 is at this present but where the one only shal be there is the Church such as she is to 〈◊〉 when there shal be no wicked men in her And in the answere to the second Epistle of Gaudentias written also after the said Conference You see that the Church according to Cyprian is called Catholicke by the name of all and it is not without manifestly-wicked men And in the second booke of his retractations I wrote said he 7. bookes of Baptisme against the Donatistes attempting to defend themselues by the authority of the most happie Bishop and Martyr 〈◊〉 in all those bookes where I haue described the Church without wrinckle or spott it must not be takē of the Church as shee in her present being but as being 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 such whē she shall appeare in glorie And againe In my writings to an vnknowē Donatist speaking of the multitude of cockle I said by which are vnderstood all heretickes there wantes a Coniunction which is necessary for I should haue said by which are also vnderstood all beretickes c. whereas I spake as if there were onely cockle out of the Church and none in the Church And neuerthelesse the Church is the Kingdome of Christ from whence the Angells in the haruest tyme will plucke vp all Scandalls which caused the Martyr Cyprian to saie Although we see tares in the Church yet ought neither our faith nor our charitie to be so diuerted as because we see tares in the Church we should therefore seperate our-selues from the Church Which sense we haue also followed els where and principallie against the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 present in the act of the Conference From whence it appeares how much it is to abuse Saint AVGVSTINES wordes against the sense whereto himselfe intendes they should be either corrected or explained to transferr as the protestantes doe that that he spake of the Church considered according to her future and finall being in the other world and applie it to the Church considered accordinge to her actuall being heere and to inferr from thence that she may consist in this world formally in the onely mumber of the predestinate and remaine hidden and visible To the fift obiection which is that Saint Ierom writes vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians The Church is glorions wthout spott or wrinkle or anie such like thing he then which is a sinner and soyled with anie spott cannot be called of the Church of Christ neither subiect to Christ We answere that he meanes not to saie that wicked men are not of the Church which is the body of Christ which fightes heere below but that they are not of the number of the Church which is the bodie of Christ which shall raigne in heauen For soe farr of is it from Saint IEROM to belieue that the promise to be without wrinkle or spott of manners appertaines to the Church considered as she is in this world that he cryes out quite contrarilie against the Pelagians That what the Apostle writes that our Lord will make his Church holy and without spott or wrinkle shall be accomplished at the end of the world and in the consummation of vertues And againe True perfection and without soyle is reserued for heauen when the bridegrome shall say to the bride Thou art wholie saire my
in the epistle to Iohn Bishop of Syracusa Who doubts but the Church of Constantinople is subiect to the Sea Apostolicke which the most Religious Lord the Emperor and our brother the Bishop of the same cittie protest continuallie Hee writes in the Epistle following to the same Bishop If there be anie cryme found in Bishops I know noe Bishop but is subiect to the Sea Apostolicke but when crimes exact it not all according to the condition of humilitie are equall He writes in the Epistle to Iohn the defendant correcting the iudgement which had bene giuen against the Bishop Steuen If they answere he had neither Metropolitan nor Patriarke it must be replied that the cause should haue bene heard and determined by the Sea Apostolicke which is the head of all the Churches He writes in the Fpistle to Iohn Bishop of Panormus Wee admonish thee that the Reuerence of the Sea Apostolicke be not troubled by the presumption of anie For then the state of the members remaines intire when 〈◊〉 iniurie is done to the head of the faith He writes in the Epistle to Natalis Bishop of Salona If one of the fower Patriarks had committed such an act so great a disobedience could not haue passed without a grieuous scandall He annulled in his Epistles to Iohn Bishop of Constantinople the Iudgement of the Church of Constantinople against Iohn Priest of Chalcedon Reprouing said he the sentence of the foresaid Iudges we declare him by our definition to be Catholicke and free from all hereticall crime And elsewhere Knowst 〈◊〉 not that in the cause of Iohn the Priest against our brother and Colleague John of Constantinople He had recourse according to the Canons to the Sea Apostolicke and it hath bene defined by our sentence He abrogated in his Epistle to Athanasius 〈◊〉 Regular of Lycaonia the decree of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople against him and restored him to his place Wee decree thee said he to be exempted from all blott of hereticall frowardnes and doe grant thee free leaue to returne into thy Monasterie and to holde the same place and ranke as thou didst before He abrogated in the Epistle to Iohn Archbishop of Larissa in Thessalia the sentence of the same Archbishop of Larissa against Adrian Bishop of Thebes and one of the fuffragans of the Archbishopricke of Larissa and ecclipsed the Bishopricke of Thebes from the iurisdiction of the Archbishopricke of Larissa and ordained that if the Archbishop of Larissa should euer more vndertake to exercise iurisdiction ouer the Bishop of Thebes he should be depriued of the communion of the Body of Christ and that it might not be restored to him except at the point of death but by the leaue of the Bishop of Rome Wee ordaine said hee that thy brotherhood obtaine from the power thou hadst before ouer the Bishop of Thebes and ouer his Church and according to the letters of our Predecessor for if anie cause either of faith or of crime or of money be pretended against our said Colleague Adrian it may be iudged if it be a matter of meane importance by our Nuncios which are or shall be in the Royall Cittie that is to saie in Constantinople and if it be a matter of Weight that it should be reported bither to the Sea Apostolicke to be decided by the sentence of our audience And if at anie time or for what occasion 〈◊〉 thou doe attempt to contradict this our decree know that we declare thee 〈◊〉 from the sacred Communion soe as it maie not be restored to thee vnlesse in the article of death but with the leaue of the Bishop of Rome And finally he abrogated in his Epistle to John Patriarke of the first Iustinianea who had confirmed the sentence of the Archbishop of Larissa the iudgement of the said Iohn Primate of the first Iustinianea and condemnes him to remaine depriued of the communion of the Bodie of Christ for the space of thirtie daies Abrogating said hee and annulling the decrees of thy sentence Wee decree by the authoritie of the blessed Prince of the Apostles that thou shalt be depriued of the sacred communion for the space of thirtie daies Nowe what was this but to crye with a lowde voice that in refusinge the title of Vniuersall he refused not therefore the title of Head of the Church and the Iurisdiction and superintendency ouer all other Bishops Archbishops and Patriarks Of the Order of sitting in the Councell of Nicea CHAPT VIII BVT Caluin to fight against this doctrine and to proue that the Pope is not head of the Church nor Superior to the other Patriarkes vseth fower principall meanes first that the Popes legates haue not presided in the ancient Generall Councells The secōd that the Pope called them not The third that the appeales of Bishops were not to the Pope And the fourth that the Canons of Africa forbadd the Bishop of the first Sea by which Caluin impertinently 〈◊〉 the Pope to call himselfe Prince of Bishops and the first meanes he striues to proue by Seauen examples which wee had best confute all at a clapp for 〈◊〉 they will obiect them to vs in a second Answere He produceth then before all things the order of the Councell of Nicea which he ignorantly calls the Councell of Nice not knowing that the Councell of Nice was an hereticall Councell that the Arrians held at Nicé in Thrace to deceiue the Catholicks by the affinitie of the words Nice and Nicea 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 compounded almost of the same letters The Arrians saith the Epistle of the Asians to Liberius caused to be signed by fraude and periuries at Constantinople a faith contrarie to that of the holy Councell of Nicea which had bene brought from Nice in Thrace And Socrates They transported themselues into a cittie of Trace called Nice and after a longe st aie held there an other Councell c. to surprise the simple by the affinitie of the words For the simple people belieued that it was the faith of Nicea in Bithinia And Theodoret They brought manie Bishops against their wills into a Towne of Thrace whose name was Nice And Sozomene Passing through Thrace they came into a cittie of the Countrie called Nice 〈◊〉 there kept a Conuenticle c. And this they did expressely at Nice to the end to perswade the simple people to cōsent to it 〈◊〉 by the neerenes of the words and belieuing it to be the decree which was made at Nicea For although Stephanus doe indeede put in a Cittie of Nicea in Thrace neuerthelesse besides that Ammianus Marcellinus saith that the 〈◊〉 of Thrace situate vpon the passage from Italie to Constantinople which was the same wherein the Arrians had held their false Councell was called Nice The Greciā Ecclesiasticall historians very notablie marke this difference betweene the Councell of the Catholiques and that of the Annians vpon
others haue gone forth and is gone forth from none which is also the marke that S. AVGVSTINE 〈◊〉 it when he saith The Catholicke Church combating against all heresies may be opposed but she cannot be ouerthrowne all 〈◊〉 are come forth from her as vnprofitable branches cutt off from their Vine but she remaines in her vine in her roote in her Charitie And S. PACIAN Bishop of Barcelona before him when he writes Now to knowe whether she hath bene principallie built vpon the foundation of the prophetts and of the Apostles in Iesus Christ the corner stone Consider whether she began before thee whither she hath growne before thee if she be not withdrawne from her first foundation whether in separating herselfe from the rest of the Bodie she haue not constituted to herselfe her Masters and her particular instructions if she haue argued anie thing vnaccustomedlie if she haue formed anie point of new right if she haue declared to her Bodie the diuorce of peace then lett her be esteemed to be departed from Christ and to be constituted forth of the prophetts and Apostles And therefore although the point of the assentiall deitie of Christ deserue to be more cleerelie exprest in Scripture then anie other as the qualitie of the Testator ought to bee more cleerelie exprest in the Testament then anie other neuerthelesse for as much as the heretickes by their malice and subtletie shift off the places of Scripture alleadged to this purpose the Fathers after they had tried all their strength to bring them backe to reason by Scripture were constrained seeing they could not make them yeeld vp their weapons by that waie to chāgetheir battery haue recourse to the authoritie of the Church Behold saith saint ATHANASVS wee haue shewed the succession of our doctrine from father to sonn you new Cayphas what Progenitors of your phrases and your termes will you bringe vs And saint HILARIE Lett vs consider soe manie holie fathers what will become of vs if wee anathematize them for we bringe thinges to this point that if they haue not 〈◊〉 Bishops we are none since we haue bene ordained by them And the same saint ATHANASIVS It is sufficient that these things are not of the Catholicke Church and that the Fathers were not of that beleefe From whence it appeareth that if the point of Christs diuinitie had neuer bene exprest in Scripture they held the light of the perpetuall testimonie of the Church for a sufficient proofe of this article For whereas saint CHRISOSTOME compares the Scripture to a Rule according whereto all things should be squared besides this that according signifies there not against he intéds that Scriptures rule all thinges either mediately or immediately that is to saie either by it selfe or by the meanes whereto it remitts vs as hee testifies himselfe in these wordes From whence it appeares that the Apostles deliuered not all thinges in vriting but also manie thinges vnwritten Now either of these are worthie of equall credit Of the Rules to iudge admitted by sainct Chrysostome and S. Augustine CHAP. XX. The continuance of the Kings answere THese two Rules to iudge the King with the English Church embracing them with an earnest desire pronounceth that hee acknowledgeth that doctrine finall ie both to be true and also necessarie to saluation that running from the Springe of the holie Scripture by the consent of the ancient Church as by a channell hath bene deriued downe to this time THE REPLIE NEither doe saint CHRISOSTOME and saint AVGVSTINE restraine the meanes to iudge of all the doctrine of the Church to these two onelie meanes by exclusion of the third to witt of Apostolicke Tradition since saint AVGVSTINE saith this is plainelie read neither by thee nor by me And againe The Apostles haue prescribed nothing in this yet the custome opposit to Cyprian ought to bee beleeued to haue taken originall out of their tradition as it is in manie thinges that the vniuersall Church doth obserue And for this cause indeede well beleeued to haue bene commaunded by the Apostles though they haue not bene written And that saint CHRYSOSTOME saith that from thence it appeares that the 〈◊〉 haue not giuen all thinges in writinge but some also without writinge whereof both sortes are in like manner worthie of creditt And elsewhere It is not in vaine that the Apostles haue giuen it by tradition to offer sacrifice for the dead they know how much aduantage and profitt encreaseth to them thereby Neither is the question in the disputation which is now handled betweene his maiestie and vs of the examination of the right but of the examination of the fact that is to saie wee are not to inquire by conferring the conclusions of Faith with their principles which of the English doctrine or ours is the truth which is a question of right whose triall besides that it must be long goes out of the listes frō the state of the questiō that we treate of But to inquire by the continuāce cōformitie with the aunciēt Catholicke Church whether our Church be the same Church as was in the time of S. AVGVSTINE and of the fowre first Councells which is a question of fact in which must be handled not what ought to be beleeued but what hath bene beleeued For his maiestie being of agreement that there was an obligation of communicatiō with the antient Catholicke Church which flourisht in the time of the foure first Councells and that whosoeuer was separate from the communion of that Church was an hereticke or a Schismaticke And the question is whether I might except from the praises of his maiestie the title of Catholicke which is the first cause of this comparison consisting in the knowing not whether the Church of those ages had beleeued well or euill which is a question of right but whether the Church of the last ages from which his maiestie or those that haue bene before him haue separated themselues be the same Church by an vninterrupted succession both of persons and of doctrine as that was in the time of S. AVGVSTINE which is a question of fact and capable of being proued by historie alone soe as the subtletie of spiritts can finde noe shift for it now to leapefrom the question of fact to the question of right And in steede of examining whether the Catholicke Church of this time had the same beleefe in the pointes controuerted betweene vs and our aduersaries as the Church in the time of the foure first Councells had to dispute whether the Church of those ages hath beleeued well and with what reseruations and mollifications her beleefe must 〈◊〉 receiued it is to goe forth from the state of the question and to change the order and meanes of the disputation Of the application of the Thesis of this obseruation to his Hipothesis CHAP. XXI The continuance of the Kinges answere THen to make an end of this discourse the
drawne from this example for the desertion of the Catholicke Church God saith saint AVGVSTINE bad that these tribes should be separated not to diuide the Religion but the Kingdome and that 〈◊〉 this meanes vengeance might be taken vpon the Kingdome of Iuda But for as much as the ordinarie refuge of those that separate themselues from vs is to haue recourse to the Symptomes of the Iewish people and to inferr from thence the same conclusions of possibilitie of errour and licence of separation for the Christian Church and that to contradict this wee haue not onely promised to shew that there neuer happened anie accident to the visible Iewish Church wherefore they either ought or could separate themselues from her communion but also that if anie such thing had happened the cōsequence thereof could not bee applied to the Christian Church which is grounded vpon other contracts and vpon other prerogatiues It is best for vs here to quitt vs of our promise and to search the question to the bottome both concerning the Thesis and the Hypothesis In regard then of the Thesis the aduersaries 〈◊〉 Catholick religion set this foundation that the Church in all times is subiect to the same Symptomes and to the same accidents there vpon argue thus The visible Church hath had three periods the first vnder nature the second vnder the lawe and the third vnder Grace Now vnder the two first she hath bene corrupted and consequētly vnder the third she may be soe Which is as if one should saie there are three periods in the progresse of the generation of man The first during the which man liues onlie the life of plantes and is yet touched with noe other instinct then simple appetite which the Philosophers call naturall common to herbes aud trees which seemes to correspond to the condition of the first period of the Church wherein she had yet noe lawe or rule but the simple lawe of nature The second during which he liues an animated and sensitiue life which is proportioned to the state of the people of the Jewes because as man in this second progresse harh noe other knowing facultie but that of the sence which is common to him with beastes so all the obiects which were manifestlie propounded to the Iewes and all the promises which were literallie made to them were of sensible thinges And the last wherein man takes possession of the life trulie human and reasonable and is adorned and enobled with intellectuall knowledge which hath analogy with the state of the Christiā Church where the faithfull are consecrated to God by a perfect lawfull forme of religion and sticke noe longer in terrestriall and materiall obiectes but exalting their thoughtes and their hopes doe nourish intertaine themselues with spirituall and incorruptible promises Now vnder the first and second of those periods the imperfect soule of man which wee call an Embricn is subiect to perish corruptible and mortall the soule of man therefore vnder the third period is not incorruptible immortall For to preduce for a reason of exception and dissimilitude that the forme of a man during all the three periods of this progresse is not one selfe same forme the reason of the 〈◊〉 is void for as much as the diuersitie of Gods promises where it so falls out hath noe lesse power to varie the Symptomes of the Church during the three periods of her being then the diuersity of formes to varie the conditions which accompanie the three periods of the generation of man Now that the promises made to the Church vnder the last period which hath bene establisht as S. PAVL saith vpon better promises then the former be wholie different both in eminencie perpetuitie from those that haue bene made to her vnder the two first what Christian can call it in question God first in regard of eminencie and multitude did he not saie to Abraham in thy seede that is to saie as S. PAVL expoundes it in Christ shall all generations be blessed And againe thy seede shal be as the starrs of heauen and as the sands of the Sea And Aggeus describing the future estate of the Church vnder the Enigma of the re-edification of the temple doth hee not saie The glorie of this last howse shall be much greater then that of the first And the Spouse in the canticles speaking of the Jewish Church doth she not singe our Sister is little and she hath yet noe breasts that 〈◊〉 to saie is not yet in state to bringe forth and nurse vp children And doth not 〈◊〉 crie out Reioyce thou barren woman that bearest not children and thou that art no mother cast forth cryes of ioy For the children of the forsaken shall be much more in number then hers that hath a husband And a while after Lengthen the cords of thy pauillions and settle their posts for thou shalt penetrate on the right band and on the left and thy seede shall inheritt the nations And againe Cast thine eyes about thee and behold all these are assembled for thee they are come for thee thy sonns shall come from farr and thy daughters shall be borne vpon shoulders And doth not S. AVGVSTINE disputing against the Donatists crie out Feare you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Jews should aske you where is that accomplished that your Paul hath 〈◊〉 of your Church reioyce thou barren woeman that thou bearest not and cast out cryes of ioy that thou hast noe children for the children of the forsaken are more in number then hers that hath a husband Preserring the multitude of the Christians before that of Iewes if your little number be the Church of Christ. And S. HIEROME against the Luciferians Where are these too Religious or rather too prophane persons that affirme there are more Synagogues then Churches And therefore doth not the same S. AVGVSTINE elegantlie compare the historie of the different times of the Church to that of the birth of Iacob for as much that as Jacob in his Birth thrust forth first one arme and then his head and then all his Bodie so the Church before she was borne first thrust forth one arme that is to saie a little part of her societie which was the Synagogue and then her head which is Christ and then all her Bodie which is the Christian Church But against that the aduersaries of the multitude of the Church alleadge that our Lord calls his Church A little flocke cōmaūds to enter into the straight gate it is true but it makes nothing for them for that our Lord calls his Church a little Flocke it is in regarde of her birth at the time where of she was the least the basest and most contemptible of all societies and not in regard of her progresse which himselfe compareth to that of a graine of mustard-seede which being at the beginning the least of all seedes becomes in the increase the greatest of all plantes We