Selected quad for the lemma: state_n
Text snippets containing the quad
|
ID |
Title |
Author |
Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) |
STC |
Words |
Pages |
|
A55926
|
A third letter concerning toleration in defense of The argument of the letter concerning toleration, briefly consider'd and answer'd.
|
Proast, Jonas.
|
1691
(1691)
|
Wing P3539; ESTC R26905
|
76,552
|
84
|
Government yields And accordingly I say they are instituted for the attaining of all the Benefits which Civil Society or Political Government can yield And this I took to be so plain a Truth that I thought it no great boldness to usher it in with a Doubtless And I confess I am still so much of the same mind that I can hardly believe that any man who has not a very urgent occasion will make any question of it For if what has hitherto been universally acknowledged be true viz. That no Power is given in vain but to be used upon occasion I think a very little Logick may serve a man to draw this Conclusion from it That all Societies are instituted for the attaining all the good or all the benefits they are enabled to attain Because if you except any of those benefits you will be obliged to admit that the Power of attaining them was given in vain Nor will it follow from hence that all Societies are instituted for one and the same End as you imagine it will unless you suppose all Societies enabled by the Powers they are endued with to attain the same End which I believe no man hitherto did ever affirm And therefore notwithstanding this Position there may be still as great a difference as you please between Church and State a Commonwealth and an Army or between a Family and the East-India Company Which several Societies as they are instituted for different Ends so are they likewise furnish'd with different Powers proportionate to their respective Ends. To your next Paragraph after what has already been said I think it may suffice to say as follows Though perhaps the Peripatetick Philosophy may not be true and perhaps it is no great matter if it be not yet the true Religion is undoubtedly true And though perhaps a great many have not time nor Parts to study that Philosophy and perhaps it may be no great matter neither if they have not yet all that have the true Religion duly tender'd them have time and all but Idiotes and Mad-men have Parts likewise to study it as much as it is necessary for them to study it And though perhaps a great many who have studied that Philosophy câ—nnot be convinced of the truth of it which perhaps is no great wonder yet no man ever studied the true Religion with such care and diligence as he might and ought to use and with an honest mind but he was convinced of the truth of it And that those who cannot otherwise be brought to do this should be a little disturb'd and diseas'd to bring them to it I take to be the Interest not onely of those particular persons who by this means may be brought into the way of Salvation but of the Commonwealth likewise upon these two accounts 1. Because the true Religion which this Method propagates makes good Men and good Men are always the best Subjects or Members of a Commonwealâ—h not onely as they do more sincerely and zealously promote the Publick Good than other men but likewise in regard of the favour of God which they often procurâ— to the Societies of which they are Members And 2. Because this Care in any Commonwealth of God's Honour and Men's Salvation entitles it to his special protection and blessing So that where this Method is used it proves both a Spiritual and a Civil Benefit to the Commonwealth You say I speak very improperly or rather very mistakenly if I call such Benefits as may any way i. e. indirectly and at a distance or by Accident be attain'd by Civil or any other Society the Ends for which it is instituted Whereas indeed the Mistake lies on your side which I must now again put you in mind of in thinking that by indirectly and at a distance I mean by Accident in your sense which I no where gave you any occasion to think And therefore I can easily admit that nothing can in reason be reckon'd among the Ends of any Society but what may in reason be supposed to be designed by those who enter into it Though I see no reason why the Author or Institutor of any Society especially of Civil Society may not be supposed to design more than those usually do who enter inâ—o it But what follows from this Why you say No body can in reason suppose that any one enter'd into Civil Society for the procuring securing or advancing the Salvation of his Soul when he for that end needed not the Force of Civil Society So that it seems the reason why the procuring securing or advancing the Salvation of Souls must not be reckon'd among the Ends of Civil Societies is because there is no need of the Force of Civil Society for that End The contrary whereof has I suppose already beâ—n sufficiently made good But whereas I say Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the Benefits which Political Government can yield and therefore c. Upon the same Grounds say you thus I reason Doubtless Churches are instituted for the attaining of all the Benefits which Ecclesiastical Government can yield And therefore if the Temporal and Secular Interests of Men may any way be procured or advanced by Ecclesiastical Politie the procuring and advancing those Interests must in all reason be reckon'd among the Ends of Religious Societies and so consequently fall within the compass of Churchmen's Iurisdiction Well Sir I admit the Consequence and do freely own the procuring and advancing the Temporal and Secular Interests of Men to be one of the Ends an inferiour or secundary End of Religious Societies c. And what do you conclude from thence Why The Church of Rome you say has openly made its advantage of Secular Interests to be procured or advanced indirectly and at a distance and in ordine ad spiritualia all â—hich ways if I mistake not English are comprehended under your any way But I do not remember that any of the Reformed Churches have hiâ—herto directly profess'd it But there is a time for all things So that it seems what the Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of I am endeavouring to bring it in at a back-door to the Reformed Churches For that I take to be the thing you would insinuate by these words But what is it I beseech you that the Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of For I confess I do not understand what you mean by Secular Interests to be procured or advanced indirectly and at a distance and in ordine ad spiritualia That some of the Bishops of Rome have made their advantage of a Power they claim'd to dispose of all Secular matters as they thought fit even to the deposing of Kings and Emperours and the bestowing their Dominions on whomsoever they pleas'd And that they claim'd this Power as belonging to them at least as Bellarmine minces the matter not directly and immediately i. e. not for the procuring or advancing men's Secular
you seem here to do that I am for â—unishing Dissenters whether they consider or no you are in a great mistake For the Dissenters which is your word and not mine whom I am for punishing are onely such as reject the true Religion proposed to them with Reasons and Arguments sufficient to convince them of the truth of it Who therefore can never be supposed to consider those Reasons and Arguments as they ought whâ—lest they persist in rejecting that Religion or in your language whilest they continue Dissenters For if they did so consider them they would not continue Dissenteâ—s 2. You say To punish men out of the Communion of the National Church to make them consider is unjust They are punish'd because out of the National Church And they are out of the National Church because they are not yet convinced Their standing out therefore in this State whilest they are not convinced not satisfied in their Minds is no Fault and therefore cannot justly be punish'd To which I answer Where the National Church is the true Church of God to which all men ought to join themselves and sufficient Evidence is offer'd to convince men that it is so there it is a Fault to be out of the National Church because it is a Fault not to be convinced that the National Church is that true Church of God And therefore since there men's not being so convinced can onely be imputed to their not considering as they ought the Evidence which is offer'd to convince them it cannot be unjust to punish them to make them so to consider it What Iustice it would be for the Magistrate to punish me for not being a Cartesian it will be time enough to consider when you have proved it to be â—s necessary for men to be Cartesians as it is to be Christians or members of God's Church 3. You say Whatever indirect Efficacy there be in Force applied your way it makes against you Force used by the Magistrate to bring men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and suffiâ—ient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider may say you be serviceable indirectly and at a distance to make men embrace the Truth which must save them And thus say I it may be serviceable to bring men to receive and embrace Falshood which will destroy them How Sir May Force used by the Magistrate to bring men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them be serviceable to bring men to embrace Falshood such Falshood as will destroy them It â—eems then there are Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince men of the truth of Falshood which will destroy them Which is certainly a very extraordinary Discovery though such as no man can have any reason to thank you for That God in his just Judgement will send such as receive not the love of the Truth that they may be saved but reject it for the pleasure they have in unrighteousness 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strong delusion i. e. such Reasons and Arguments as will prevail wiâ—h men so disposed to believe a Lie that they may be damn'd This I confess the Scripture plainly teaches us But that there are any such Reasons or Arguments as are proper and sufficient to coâ—vince or satisfy any but such resolute and obdurate Sinners of the truth of such Falshood as will destroy them is a Position which I â—nâ—sure the Scripture does not teach us and which when you have better consider'd it I hope you will not undertake to maintain And yet if it be not maintainable what you say here is to no purpose For if there be no such Reasons and Arguments as heâ—e we speak of 't is in vain to talk of the Magistrate s using Force to make men consider them But however let it be supposed if you pleaâ—e that there are such Reasons and Arguments as are proper and sufficient to convince men of the truth of Falshood which will destroy them And that Force applied by the Magistrate to make men consider theâ— might be serviceable to bring men to receive and embrace such Falshood What will you conclude from thence May it not be trâ—e nevertheless that Force used by the Magistrate to bring men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider may be serviceable indirectly and at a distance to bring men to embrace the Truth which must save them Which is all that I am here concern'd to make good But not content to say that Force my way applied i.e. to bring men to embrace the Truth which must save them may be serviceable to bring men to embrace Falshood which will destroy them and so is proper to do as much harm as good which seems strange enough you add to encreate the wonder that in my indirect way it is much more proper and likely to make men receive and embrace Error than the Truth And that 1. Because Men out of the right Way are as apt and you think you may say apter to use Force than others Which is doubâ—less an irrefragable Demonstration that Force used by the Magistrate to bring men to receive and embrace the Truth which â—ust save them is much more proper and likely to make men receive Error than the Truth But Sir I beseech you how come we to talk here of what men out of the right Way are apt to do to bring others into their i. e. a wrong Way where we are onely enquiring What may be done to bring men to the right Way For that I must put you in mind is our Question viz. Whether the Magistâ—ate has any Right to use Force to bring men to the true Religion Now whereas our Author says that Penalties or Force is absolutely impertinent in this case because it is not proper to convince the Mind To which I answer that though Force be not proper to convince the Mind yet it is not absolutely impertinent in this case because it may however do some service towards the bringing men to embrace the Truth which must save them by bringing â—hem to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper to convince the Mind and which without being forced they would not consider Here you tell me No but it is much more proper and lâ—kely to make men receive and embrace Error than Truth because â—en out of the right Way are as apt and perhaps apter to use Force than others Which is as good a proof I believe as the thing would admit For otherwise I suppose you would have given us a better As to what you say here on the by of the Mildness and Gentleness of the Gospel which is apter to use Prayers and Intreaties then Force to gain a hearing I shall onely demand of you Whether the Mildness and Gentleness of