shall he not be excommunicated for it shall his ignorance excuse him is not his ignorance a sin and especially when it is concomitant or subsequent to some other sinne or action of the will when he has procured it to himselfe or when he used not morall diligence enough to chase it away shall or can the ignorance of the Law or of his duty which hee is bound to know excuse him or free him from excommunication Is not that Socinianisme Arminianisme judge ye Master Doctor and answer not with complaints lamentable Interjections as if you would rather be pitied then bound to prove any thing ye say pay us not with generalities and Individuum vagums but signatums Answer I pray you to the point All the authority that this Master Doctor Well-willer can bring for himselfe p. 11. and 12. is a Morellus and some other excommunicated Ministers in France which yet he hath borrowed from the cleared Reformation As for that which he saith p. 13. § 2. that a Bishop is a Presbytery contracted and a Presbytery a Bishop diffused 1. It is but one of the Separatists ordinary jeeres against Presbyterian Government 2. They prove it not 3. The Commissioners answer it p. 25. 4. And if it were so yet Presbyterian Aristocracie should bee admitted since it is Gods ordinance but nor Episcopacy since it is not Gods ordinance 5. Amongst the Helvetians if one man should goe and contrive into his owne person all the authority which is diffused amongst all the Rulers there thinke you that they would endure him or rather not put him to death as a Tyrant and a Traytor according to his demerits The very contrivance of authority into one person which God hath diffused in many is unjust and tyrannicall in Gods Church But the Doctor objecteth that in forbearing Excommunication I beleeve he understandeth the greater they leave more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterie doth Answ This the Doctor saith but proveth it not and therefore we deny it with the like facility that he propoundeth it our reason is because when a man is excommunicated the Civill Magistrate ceaseth not for all that to punish him civilly for the Presbyterie by excommunication exileth or casteth him out of the Church society notwithstanding which he remaineth in the State society and if his sinne be against the State and deserve it the Magistrate may exile him and cast him out of the State society or of the Kingdome but not out of the Church no more then the Church may cast him out of the Kingdom As for your comparisons in saying that it is not an English heart that speaketh so it is but a sophisticall evasion seditiously to clude their argument whereunto you cannot bring so much as a probable solution so you grant what they say Neither is our dispute here about English Scots or French but about Christian hearts and consciences It is a shame to an English man to be Author of Schisme in his owne Country when Strangers imploy all their endeavours for union and peace both in Church and Common-wealth But this I leave and pray you to tell us what ye give more to the Civill Magistrate then we whether it be an Ecclesiasticall or Civill power and wherein whether to judge in matter of Doctrine or Discipline Remember Sir that in speaking of New England P. 8. you give them nothing else but Gods word for Church Government and the Kings patent for what they did in Policie and tell us if ever they followed the Kings or his Councels directions in Church Policie Item tell us whether it is the Civill Magistrate or the Church Officers part to erect Church Government and to make the Lawes thereof to judge according to the same and to put them in execution c Here he telleth us also or objecteth that Excommunication hath need of better grounds then mens sinning of simplicity or ignorance Answ So the ignorance of Jesus Christ and denying of his merits should not incur the sentence of Excommunication Hee objecteth that the punishment of Excommunication for small faults will make the punishment at last small in the eyes of men Answ It is true but is it the doctrine of the Reformed Churches that it should be inflicted for small faults But to cleare more this matter two things are needfull to be expounded the first is what the Independents understand by great sinnes the second what they understand by the parties knowne light thirdly what by Christianity fourthly what by common received practices of Christianity fiftly what by the Church As for the first a sinne may be great either quoad essentiam or quoad entitatem according to its essence or entity or as it were its quantity That sinne is said to be greater then another according to its essence the species whereof degenerateth most from the divine Rule of Gods Law such as be the sins that are greatest in regard of their object so it is a greater sinne to offend God then man because it includeth in it selfe a greater objective deformity then the other But a sinne is greater then another according to its entity or quantity that has greater extension intension or duration i. e. more parts more degrees and of a longer continuance then another By extension or more parts I understand either objective or formall parts viz. when a sinne is committed against more persons as the sinne committed against twenty is greater then that committed against two or has more materiall objects as when one stealeth more money viz. two pound it is a greater finne then to steale two pence So it is a greater sinne in respect of the formall perts or acts wherein formally sin consifteth if they be taken in concreto when a man returneth oftentimes to the same sinne as hee who stealeth ten times is a farre greater sinner then he that stealeth but only once In respect of the intention or degrees of sinne that sinne is greater then another wherein there be more degrees as when it is committed more willingly with greaterliberty with greater violence with greater knowledge Item by him that hath greater helpes of grace or of nature to resist it and to produce the opposite effects of vertue Finally that sin is greater then another in duration that continueth longer So a sin may be greater then another quoad essentiam and lesse quoadentitatem or essentially greater but entitatively or in quantity lesse then another and on the contrary greater then another quoad entitatem or in regard of its quantity but not greater essentially For example if a man sin against the precepts of the first Table in not loving God with all his heart be sory therefore and against his Father not onely in not loving him as himselfe but also in abusing him willingly and offering him violence without any remorse of conscience the first sinne is greater essentialiter but the last is greater entitativè so some Schoolemen say that faith is more certaine then any
AN ANSVVER TO A LIBELL INTITULED A COOLE CONFERENCE Between the cleered REFORMATION AND THE APOLOGETICALL NARRATION Brought together by a Wel-willer to both Wherein are cleerely refuted what ever he bringeth against the Reformation cleared most humbly submitted to the judgement of the Honourable Houses of Parliament the most Learned and Reverend Divines of the Assembly and all the Reformed Churches By ADAM STEVART Amb. lib. 5. de Fide Si taceamus consentire videbimur si contendamus verendum ne carnales judicemur Imprinted at London 1644. TO THE READER COurteous Reader I pray thee excuse some of the most materiall faults fallen out partly by my absence partly by an accident that befell the Copy and to correct them as followeth PAge 3. line 8. read neither should he have feared a suppression of his book p. 10. l. 11. dele all that parenthesis ibid. p. l. 20. dele because p. 11. l. 9. read and those who interesse p. 16. l. 24. for but so r. and so p. 19. l. 26. r. for it was 1. it was p. 22. d. men p. 25. l. 3. r. Answ 1. ib. p. l. 5. for how r. 2. How ibid. p. l. 8. after the word Communion adde all that followeth 3. Either this Wel-willer pretendeth to play the Naturalist or the Divine If the Naturalist he knoweth not well the nature of the Northerly winde for ordinarily it bringeth not blacke but faire weather and scattereth the clouds as he might learne of all Naturalists ab Aqualone aurum from the North commeth gold i.e. golden or fair weather Iob 37.22 The North winde driveth away rain Prov. 25.23 If he play the Divine and allude to Scripture I must say to him as Christ said to the Jewes Ye erre not understanding the Scriptures for there it signifieth either the Spirit of Christ as in Salomons Song And then he must pray with the Church A wake O North-winde and come thou South blow upon my garden that the spices thereof may flow out Cant. 4.16 Or Gods people who were Northerne in respect of the Philistins who were their enemies so we must be Gods people and the Independenters whom this Wel-willer opposeth to the North their enemies or the Babylonians who were septentrionall or North-ward in respect of Gods people Esay 41.25 and so he esteemeth us to be Gods enemies if so how hold they us for one of the most pure Churches but what ever it signifie it can never signifie the Church of Scotland but in a very good sense Pag. 27. d. us p. 28. for Heb. panegr r. as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Scripture Heb. 12.23 l. ult for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 29. l. 8. for vomit r. ye vomit p. 29. l. 30. d. of my selfe p. 43. l. 27. for two read five p. 35. l. 29. after the word narration adde all this that followeth Onely I pray the Reader to consider these mens craft in going about to sow the seeds of division betwixt the civill Magistrat the orthodox Churches in making the world to beleeve that they grant him more then the maximes of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to do For 1. They tell not wherein 2. Whether this power be Ecclesiasticall or Civill as for the Ecclesiasticall they cannot give it 1. It being onely a Ministeriall power to serve not Magisteriall to dominiere with or to be given away by proxy to whom they please 2. If they give the Magistrat any power what can it be is it to preach to teach the power of the Keies to Excommunicate or to attend upon the sick and poore people and as for the civill it is not theirs but His Majesties and the Magistrates as is the constant tenet of all the Orthodox Churches who hold the Civill power incompatible with that of a Pastour or Doctor of the Church 3. If they grant the Magistrate more power then our Churches how is it that they acknowledge the Kings Patent in New-England for nothing else but in matters of State or Civill Government and Gods word onely in Church Government 4. He and they also hold the same rule in Old-England and therefore I pray all men only to consider if this be not rather a gulling of the Civill Magistrate then a proof of what they say 5. I wish him to answer whether New-England depend of Old-England and whether they thinke the King and Parliament have power to change Religion and Church Government there 6. Whether they both have power to do the same here against Gods word 7. Whether the Parliament have done well or not in calling of this Assembly of Divines to judge of matters of Religion As for us the constant opinion of all our Churches is that all Civill power belongeth onely to the Civill Magistrate and none at all to the Church 2. That the Civill Magistrate hath an extrinsecall executive power about Religion to maintaine and reforme it in case of corruption and that according to the presidents in Scripture Neither did ever any good Christian Prince assume any more to himselfe Neither doth it any way lessen his power that it is only extrinsecall for to be intrinsecall or extrinsecall signifieth not any quantity of greater or lesser power but onely the manner thereof for an extrinsecall power and influence may be greater then an intrinsecall as appeareth in that of the efficient and Materiall cause for the first is only active and yet extrinsecall but the second meerely passive without any action or efficacy at all and yet intrinsecall PErlegi tractatum hunc in quo nihil reperio quo minus cum utilitate publicâ imprimatur IA. CRANFORD BEfore I beginne the Refutation of this Pamphlet it shall not be amisse that I apologize for my selfe for refuting a Book already sufficiently refuted of it selfe and by that very same Booke whereof it intendeth the refutation I will therefore here declare unto the Christian Reader how I came to undertake it how unwilling I was to doe it upon what reasons I was moved thereunto The truth therefore is thus That some daies after the publication of this booke I hapned to fall in company with some men of quality that were reading of it and after the perusall thereof it was the joint wish of them all that some answer were drawne up unto it A few dayes after that I chanced to re-encounter with some of the same company and some others very well affected to Reformation who after sundry discourses fell upon the same Theme againe some of them saying that it would doe well that the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland would answer it Where some of them desiring me to deliver my opinion I replyed severall times as occasion required in substance that which followeth That it might seeme strange to others if men of such gravity and learning and much more of so eminent place and employment representing the whole Nationall Church of the Kingdome of Scotland should stoop to answer every idle
the Assembly hath vowed and covenanted to come as neare as they can in the Government of this Church unto that of other Reformed Churches and namely of that of Scotland taking evermore Gods Word for their first patterne and infallible rule of direction 10. They are thanked for it because it refuteth some unworthy aspersions that some have fastened upon the Government of the Reformed Churches now who can those be judge you Sir If here the one be thanked I may probably say the other getteth little thanks for his paines 11. The Assembly rejoyceth at the washing away of those aspersions yea unworthy aspersions as they are termed by them 12. The Authors of such filthie aspersions were there said to affect wayes of their owne now what can be those wayes that be their owne since they are not called Gods wayes judge yee againe 13. They are paralleled there with Bishops being both two opposite enemies to the Government of the true Reformed Churches the Bishops saying no Bishop no King and the others that the Reformed Churches gave not the Civill Magistrate his due which I interpret to bee as if the one said a King cannot be without a Bishop and the other a King cannot bee with Presbyteriall Government 14. Because it was there said that it was necessary to vindicate the Churches of God from so unjust imputations 15. Because the Assembly like wise men commended very highly the sincerity gravity and ingenuity of the Book 16. Because the Synod declareth how it acknowledgeth it self very much beholden to the Commissioners for the vindication of their owne and other Protestant Churches 17. It is called a temperate and seasonable vindication 18. The Assembly saith in name of all the Churches of this Kingdome that they desire to keep with them all and that of Scotland a more arct Communion and uniformity in the Ordinances of Jesus Christ 19. The Assembly declareth there that they had a very high esteeme of the Church of Scotland 20. It commended also the Commissioners for their judicious and grave discourse in the Assembly which contributed much to the foresaid Uniformitie with all the Protestant Churches And all this I have deduced at length not onely to refute this untruth but many others heretofore and hereafter which this unworthy Pamphleter casteth upon the Commissioners yea upon all our Churches to kindle a fire of Division betwixt the Civill Magistrate and them in these most calamitous times when both Church and State are in combustion already But after such evident untruths he addeth if observation faile not Here he seemeth to make us believe that the Author of this Pamphlet is one of the Members of the Assembly or that some Member of the Assembly has dealt treacherously and perfidiously with the Assembly in pinning upon them such an Act flatly contrary to their formall expressions for none but some Member of the Assembly could make any such observation But of this I will say nothing it being a matter of higher concernment I beleeve rather that the Author of this Booke is minded in principio medio fine to be like to himselfe P. 4. § 1. We read nothing else but of the Independenters admirations which Philosophers call the daughter of ignorance and some of their thoughts and judgements as if they were giving an account of their Creed as p. 2. we read nothing but Interjections of lamentation ah oh c. of holy and gracious men whereas we crave some quia's ergo's or other rationall Conjunctions whereunto we cannot better reply then did Scotus to a Doctor of the Sorbone in Paris This Doctor when he could not answer Scotus his argument by Reason said evermore Respondeo cum Sancto Doctore Cum S. Doctore replied the other si sanctus oret pro nobis si Doctor respondeat ad argumentum so we to you If those men among you be holy let them cry ah for their sinnes and pray to God for Gods Church but let Doctors propound and answer arguments but this man reasoneth not but giveth out Sentences as if he were some Iudge of one of the Benches You doe but imagine and fancie whatsoever you say in this Section of your imagination of the Commissioners extr ajudiciall and eccentricall Act your acts may rather seeme Eccentricall secundum quid to London and Concentricall secundum quid with Oxford where me thinkes they have more regard a great deale to your tender Consciences then to those of the Commissioners Neither can any mortall man hinder so independent imaginations It hath been already proved that you have given the first second and third blow and in your Apologeticall Narration you threatned yet another your judgement is utterly erronious in thinking that this was intended to disunite the Presbiterians from others i. e. from Independenters since no others can well be thought upon all other Orthodox Churches and all the Synod being no other for their intention is altogether to unite you with them Neither are there for any thing we know any that disunite you from them or them from you save your selves onely P. 4. § 3. This well willer is very impertinent in proving against the Commissioners that Visibility and Succession are not essentiall notes of a true Church which they I beleeve never thought I am sure never said And yet I must say that howsoever visibility be not essentiall to a true Church yet it is essentiall to a true visible Church whereof we all dispute here And howsoever of a true Church wee cannot inferre visibility yet from true visibility we may infer a true Church P. 5. § 1. He blesseth God that God hath made a Rehoboth for the Scots And God willing wee shall bee fruitfull in the Land as Isaac and we pray God he and his be not as the Herdsmen of Gerar even striving with our Herdsmen of Isaac If we have a Rehoboth wherefore will yee not drinke of our Spring wherefore to use your termes will ye not jumpe with us or if yee will not ye may be gone as Lot with your Pastours and separate your selves from Abraham and Isaac Ibid. Who can hinder the windes if they blow and bring blacke weather from the North or West Answ No true English hearts have made any such judgement of the Northerly windes these three yeares last past How much trulier might it bee said of a few Donatisticall spirits with their Vbi habitas amica mea in meridie that trouble their mother Church esteeming all her children unworthy of their Communion Pag. 5. § 3. Ye come up me thinkes somewhat lamely with your Catalogue of Prophets 1. For onely ye have one Brightman and yet none of yours hee is of ours for he preferreth the Scots Church constituted of Parochiall Classicall and Synodall Assemblies before all other or at least postpones it to no others 2. Neither in exposing the Prophecies of Scripture according to Scripture can he be said to have had the gift of Prophecie since his expositions were not