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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
state_n	church_n	civil_a	society_n	1,332	5	9.1138	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91887	Some few considerations propounded, as so many scruples by Mr. Henry Robinson in a letter to Mr. Iohn Dury upon his epistolary discourse: with Mr. Duryes answer thereunto. VVherein is observable with what overtures of spirit they endeavour to edifie each other, not withstanding their differing judgements and opinions about the Independent and Presbyterian way. Published by a well-willer to peace and truth, in expectation that it may no little conduce, either to the reconciling of such controversies, or to the debating them with lesse noise and bitternesse. Whereunto is annexed another epistolary discourse, written by Mr. John Dury, to a worthy knight, concerning the principles of meditation: from which rules may be gathered to direct men to order their thoughts, so as to finde a resolution of all their doubts.	Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?; Dury, John, 1596-1680.; Well-Willer to Peace and Truth.	1646 (1646)	Wing R1679; Thomason E345_1; ESTC R200979	39,103	49

SOME FEW CONSIDERATIONS PROPOVNDED As so many Scruples by Mr. Henry Robinson in a Letter to Mr. Iohn Dury upon his Epistolary Discourse With Mr. Duryes Answer thereunto VVherein is observable with what overtures of spirit they endeavour to edifie each other notwithstanding their differing Judgements and Opinions about the Independent and Presbyterian way Published by a Well-willer to Peace and Truth in expectation that it may no little conduce either to the reconciling of such Controversies or to the debating them with lesse noise and bitternesse Whereunto is annexed another Epistolary Discourse written by Mr. John Dury to a worthy Knight concerning the Principles of Meditation From which Rules may be gathered to direct men to order their thoughts so as to finde a resolution of all their doubts 2 Tim. 2. 24 25. A servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle unto all men apt to teach patient in meeknesse instructing even those that oppose themselves Gal. 6. 1 2. If a man be overtaken in a fault ye which are spirituall restore such a one in the spirit of weeknesse considering thy self lest thou also be tempted Psal 50. v. 23. Who so offereth praise glorifieth me and to him that ordereth his Conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God LONDON Printed for Charles Green and are to be sold at his Shop in Ivie Lane at the signe of the Gun 1646. To the Reverend and much honoured Mr. IOHN DURY Reverend Sir ACcording to that small talent of understanding which it pleased the eternall Dispencer from whom all good gifts proceed to bestow upon me I may safely say and that with great joy of heart how amongst so many as doe argue and debate the present differences of the Churches particularly about the Independent and Presbyteriall Government I have not met with any who ever yet expressed so sweet so brotherly so Christian and even so Apostolicall a spirit as without any other prospective I clearly see inhabiting in you breast by some letters which came forth about two months agoe entituled An Epistolary Discourse c. with others which it pleased my worthy friend Mr. Hartlib to favour me withall your proceeding with the Apologists therein I cannot better expresse then as if it were between your own right hand and your left towards which any other then an equall proportion of liberty and affection would bee both unnaturall and unjust It is now eight monthes since I was bold to enquire after you in hope you had been in England with an intention of importuning you which since I perceived to be needlesse through your own forwardnesse to engage your selfe towards the reconciling of this Clergie War but understanding you were so farre off and withall scarce setled or well at leasure I forbore purposely to give you farther trouble However because in the beginning of your Letter to Mr. Hartlib as also in the other to Mr. Good win and Mr. Nye you seemed desirous of a further correspondency with the Apologists or some others in their way whereby you might have knowne the state of their case in England and as I conceive would gladly for the common Cause sake that some punctuall answer were made unto the Epistolary Discourse which I am fearfull will not succeed as yet in that I apprehend that most men of their way are rather totally possessed and taken up with an imminent danger and daily expecting some sudden sentence of absolute silence or certaine banishment for what is said already through a most fierce persecution of certaine unquiet Presbyterian Spirits the consideration whereof as also the great desire I have of being farther knowne unto you in the high esteem of those admirble gifts which God hath given you prevaile with mee to trouble you with these few generall considerations upon the reading of your Epistolary Discourse whereby you will perceive I take not upon me neither to state the controversie so much above my slender abilities and yet not as one altogether without hopes through Gods mercy which is still most eminent when most rely'd upon and the love you beare to truth a greater then which I know not where to find to make an ensample unto my selfe but that they may in some small manner and by degrees bee conducing unto the publique good Pag. 20. Briesly then about the middle of your book you please to say the Apologists are not to be tolerated unlesse they can shew their way of Non-communion to be the only way of God and the Presbyteriall contrary c. But I should suppose it sufficient if they can prove their way to be one of the wayes of God if but a possibility of salvation in their way since they professe before God and man and must be beleeved in charity that they cannot comply with a good conscience in any other way our Saviours Proclamation of He that was not against him was on his part Mark 9. 40. seems to make not a little to this purpose and so much the rather they may be tolerated whilst they insist not so much that the Presbyteriall government should be rejected by the State as that their own way be barely suffered among themselves but whilst the Presbyterian party or such as will not permit a Civil abode but banish or exp●ll all such as differing in opinon doe separate themselves from Church society they are Authors of a more desperate separation far worse then non-communion or the separatists themselves in whatsoever sense because they take away all possibility of regaining them if they were in an error by their conversation Pag. 21. The lesse the cause of separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it The cause of separation is great in apprehension of the Apologists but lesse in judgement of the Presbyterians proceeding only as these usually alledge about things indifferent and therefore they ought the rather to give way unto them since they may contrive it with a quiet conscience all the reason they give unto the contrary is the goodlinesse of uniformity in the outward comlinesse which cannot be stood upon as necessary much lesse to be pressed so far as not to suffer such to live amongst them who cannot comply through tendernesse of conscience godly reasonable and understanding men as they are thought to be should not by charitable men be deemed to separate to their so great inconveniences if their conscience could otherwise dispence with them whereas the Presbyterians here which stand upon their pantofles enjoying all accōmodations may easier be supposed to keep their dispised brethren of the Independent way to such hard taske and measure to gratifie their private interests Pag. 23. Let us remember that the servants of God must not strive but be gentle to all men chiefly unto our neerest brethren If the Apologists can be thought to strive 't is only in a defensive way to keep their consciences from being ravished into a uniformity whereof they finde themselves not able to give an

deceive seeing hee hath shewed them that they ought all to be setled together in one body under their only head and bee fitly joyned together and compacted in one society that by the spirituall joynts and ligatures which his Spirit through love in the mutuall care of each other doth frame amongst them they may make the increase of the body in the measure of every part by that which every joynt supplyeth unto the edifying of themselves in their duties of love seeing I say againe all this is thus by God declared therefore it followeth that not only the whole body of Beleevers in a Nation may by a right from God compact themselves together by their joynts and ligatures for their mutuall strengthning in spirituall duties to doe all things as one man in Christ but they ought to depend in this relation only from Christ as their head and act towards each other only by the ability which he giveth And Christs Vicegerent on earth appointed for the inspection of Civill and outward matters must not presume either to hinder them in the use of these meanes of their spirituall growth unto the stature of a perfect man within themselves or injoyne them to act only as from and under his Authority that which is to be done in this kinde For this cause we say that the Magistrates sanction in spirituall matters of edification for the execution of duties and compacting of the Body is but de bene esse cumulativè requisite for outward protection and not at all necessary for to give a being unto the worke it selfe nor is it from his Civill sanction that the whole Body of Beleevers in a Nation is made one but they are bound for their owne growth and preservation to make themselves one unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ nor may the Vicegerent of Christ on earth if he will not incurre the high displeasure of his sovereign abstruct this growth of Christs spirituall Body but is bound to further it by all the assistance that he can contribute thereunto and ought to take away the lets which may hinder it wherof this would be a maine one to authorise severall wayes and allow them as waies of God to constitute the Body of Christ and manifest the truth of his worship when hee cannot be ignorant that there is but one way agreeable to the will of God in doing this As touching the place Mark 9. 20. which you alleadge He that is not against us is on our part doth inferre to me thus much only that private men̄ ought not to be prohibited to make use of the name of Christ or to walke in a way not opposite to Christ although they joyne not themselves to follow Christ with his true Disciples For the question is there of hindring some who followed not Christ as the Apostles did to make use of his name to doe miracles Christ forbids his Disciples to hinder such from doing what they did by a rule of Prudencie that such could not lightly speake evill of him This case doth hold well amongst private Christians in the way of mutuall edification but it doth not reach the point which I insist upon in respect of the duty of a state For there is a vast distance between the duty of a Disciple of Christ in not hindring particular mens practises which hurt not their wayes in Christianity and the granting of a Toleration by a Magistrate to an Assembly or many Assemblies of men to practice publickly in the state that which hee doth not finde to be the true way of God This difference is great many wayes but particularly in this that such a granting of a Toleration is an act of publicke Approbation which to declare is not alwayes wisdome in a private Christian far lesse in a state Therefore not to hinder in that case is one thing and to give a Toleration in this is quite another matter As for the charge laid upon the Presbyteriall Brethren in the end of this Paragraphe that they will not suffer any Civill abode to any that differ in opinion separate from Church society from them I know not how you can make it good nor will I beleeve it without sufficient proof nor ought you to alleadge it without a sure and undoubted warrant therefore as a thing spoken in haste and out of too much jealousie I will leave it till God let you see the contrary in their unblameable wayes of conversation to gaine all men by loving forbearance with all long suffering and doctrine 2. Pag. 21. Upon the words The lesse the cause of separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it you make no exception but you apply the Assertion against the Presbyterian Brethren for the advantage of the Apologists contrary to the application that I made thereof The ground that I had to apply the assertion to the Apologists is taken from their owne words in the close of their Apologie where to my best understanding they say plainly of their owne way that is differs but a little from their Presbyterian Brethren which seemes to contradict the speech of your observation when you say that in the apprehension of the Apologists the cause of separation is great and little in the judgement of the Presbyterians But if you marke the argument which they use to the Parliament it will be found this That which differs but a little from the way which you allow you may safely tolerate But the way which we desire to follow differs but a little from that which you allow Therefore you may safely tolerate it and grant our suit But if you make the argument thus Because the way which we desire to follow is greatly different from that which you allow therefore you should grant us a Toleration I suppose this would bee no strong perswasion and no part of the Apologists meaning But to speake of the thing in it selfe as you apprehend and deliver it I confesse that nothing which doth relate conscience as to conscience can justly be counted small yet the difference of things in respect of each other may be small when you compare them together but if a mans conscience be troubled at that small difference it is to him no small matter to digest it if he makes truly conscience of his wayes but if his owne conscience be not sound nothing will be of great moment to it or else every thing of too great for it will alwayes be in the one or other extream Now a good and sound conscience is that which is enlightned by a rule to determine all that it doth For in matters of Religion if I leave my conscience at large without a rule I make mine own will and reason a rule and serve God not as he requireth but as I think good then which nothing is more destructive to the glory of Gods name whereby he is acknowledged the Father of Spirits Therefore I must tell you that I

the spirits and holding fast that which is good if they may not heare such as they apprehend to be sent from Christ and imbrace such doctrines as they take to be saving truths and necessary to their salvation according to that light of reason and understanding in the Scriptures which God hath given them for this very purpose Pag. 36. If those you call common principles whilst you say the Apologists insisting on generalities cannot be brought to triall were demonstrative as you alleadge the Scriptures may bee demonstratively analized P. 4. I should thinke it the worke of some Angell to have it once effected and as well the Apologists as all others who now differ in opinion would quickly grow together into an unity of faith But till then I shall expect that according to the Scriptures there will be heresies and in the mean time conceive that nothing except this demonstrative analizing sacred truth will sooner vanquish them then the suffering them to bee with all possible freedome examined and debated which must necessarily infer the most acknowledged truths themselves to be subject to the same proceeding in that what one man Church or Nation takes to be truth another perhaps accounts no lesse then heresie And if Paul told the Galathians that if a good Angell an Angell from heaven should preach any other Gospell to them then what the Apostles had done before he should be accursed I conceive we may much more try the spirits of mortall men of like passions and infirmities with our selves consequently holding fast what wee finde sound and rejecting what appeares to bee erronious by the touchstone of holy Writ according to our owne reason understanding and faith since we neither may or can judge truly of them no more then see with the eyes of other men by the reason understanding and faith of others neither can I apprehend a third or any meane betwixt these two conditions To Pag. 30. I consesse a dissolved government may often times prove dangerous and fatail to any State both Civill and Ecclesiasticall and yet not so dangerous not fatall as a dominiering over rigid tyrannicall government especially in the spirituall state and both of them are therefore to be regulated according to their bounds and rules If Church discipline and censures will not prevaile on Church members I finde no warrant to flye to Civill but conceive it highly condemned even by that place of Paul where he blames the Corinthians for going to law with one another and that before unbeleevers besides all Civill states account themselves in a manner perfect for their civill condition and constitution As first they are compleat in Lawes they have as many as they will themselves they pretend to understand them fully even to the least jot and every man is bound to know them exactly and keep them in the letter But for spirituall matters we know but in part and therefore ought to reach forth to what is wanting not refusing to lend an eare unto it though tendered by a stammering illiterate tongue of some otherwise despised soule As all truth for the most part even from the beginning hath been discountenanced and rejected upon the first discovery and so much the rather in that the Primitive Christians however weak and ignorant in faith and knowledge the Apostles found them yet had they such amongst them in both respects as far exceeded all others ever since neither have we such infallible teachers like theirs to confirm unto us what we have for truth or adde unto us what is wanting To pag. 31. I must needs confesse the opinion of a greater light is no little deceitfull but doth not God require that we should walk according to such appearing light whether true or false I must be guided by it as it appears unto my selfe and how can God be angry with me for serving him to my power or how can man condemne me for differing from him when I have used all such rationall common principles which he could prescribe to bring me to be of this opinion without prevailing upon my conscience You say well with the Apostle that if any man thinketh he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know 1 Cor. 8. 2. and yet a man must be ruled by that which he thus but thinks to know so much lesse ground hath any man to impose what he knowes not for even his knowledge neither is no better upon another who knowing nothing yet knowes as much as himself Nay a Synod Councel or State have so little preemimence in this respect as that we must not look upon them with respect of persons unlesse we will justifie the Church of Rome in their implicit faith Pag. 32. You approve the casting off subjection and absolute obedience unto Episcopacy but would not have dissolved the brotherly corresponcie in a Presbyterie and certainly it should not be but it must then continue brotherly we must run hand in hand like brothers so long as we can keep a good conscience both towards God and man and if afterwards upon just grounds in our opinions for some respects we are forced to separate from them we shall be yet desirous to rest among them that if possibly they may be won by a godly conversation but if like a curst father or imperious Master they endeavour with rods and staves to drive us from our Father and Master which is in heaven or from our native countrey friends and livelihoods they do not only cease to be brotherly but cast away all hopes or possibility of reclaiming us if we were in an error Pap. 34. You make duties of practice no lesse fundamentall in the profession of Christianity then the knowledge of necessary truths according unto which principle I suppose the Apologists ought to be permitted both to practise such duties as they apprehend requisite and not to joyn with such as they esteem superfluous erroneous since both may be no lesse of faith then for one that eateth and another that eateth not whilest both give thanks to God as Paul sayes of them Rom. 14. 6. To pag. 37. As they will not refuse subjection to their own Pastor that hath the charge of their souls so much lesse when what he requires of them be confirmed by the approbation of a Presbyterie other Churches or Brethren but this must be in such things as they may yeeld unto with a good conscience and in case they finde reason for dissenting they are liable only to be censured by their own Church which hath power over them not by any others who have no jurisdiction much lesse authoritative o● compulsative Synods and Assemblies may well be convocated and take counsel debate and seek to vanquish such difficulties as arise without a Majesteriall jurisdiction which neither our Saviour or his Apostles did ever make use of or give command to others to practise it in after ages Christs kingdome was not of this world his body is mysticall and such

account neither to God nor man but they are the Presbyterians which may be said both properly and actually to strive and that with carnall civill weapons whilest by their doctrine instigation or approbation their poor brethren which cannot with a good conscience comply with them are persecuted by discountenancing turning out of their Ministery and livelihoods imprisoning and banishing through grief and manifold inconveniences even unto death Pag. 24. You say if spirituall relation cannot be setled by the wisdome and loving affections of spirituall office-bearers within the Church amongst themselves then it is just that they should forfeit their spirituall right and liberty c. If this be so I would gladly see it proved from evidence of Scripture or good reason for I conccive that as Christ did only purchase for us our Christian rights and liberties so no State or Government no body but himself may take upon him to abridge us of them Secondly that no civill misdemeanors can be just cause to abridge us of our Christian liberty Thirdly that divisions in opinions about a Church-way do not necessarily conclude divisions in a State And lastly such as do actually disturb the civill State the publike peace both ought and may be punished even unto death without abridging such offenders much lesse the civilly innocent in their spirituall rights and liberties The utmost extent and height of Christians differing in opinion which I ever heard of was this First that they might have leave to search the Scriptures Secondly to try the spirits examine the doctrines which were taught them and so rejecting error hold fast the truth worshpping God in such a manner as he requires with confirming and edifying one another in all piety and godlinesse for discharging of a good conscience both towards God and man If it be objected that men may not worship God after a false manner under pretence of a true one nor publish errors in stead of truth I answer that nothing can be saving truth nor any kind of worshipping God prove acceptable from any man which is not held to be such in his own conscience and understanding I submit my self to heare reade or be informed in whatsoever shall be required of me and it may on strong presumptions be conceived that the sundry disadvantages I lie under in dissenting with the many benefits I might receive by conforming do make me no little willing and desirous that my very judgement and conscience could be brought about to approve and agree in what the State establisheth so it might be with a good conscience towards God and man but if after all this I shall professe in presence of the Lord that I do not finde evidence by all that was alledged for convincing of my conscience I desire to see cleer grounds from Scripture on which any politick ends of State may any wayes proceed to offer violence or any degree of compulsive means to work upon my conscience and understanding on which such spirituall as have hitherto been used were not able to prevail since such only we finde warrantable and sanctified in Scripture to this effect Pag. 25. They should be so tolerated as may be no prejudice to that Church whereof the State it self is professedly a nursing mother I cannot apprehend how the similitude can hold between a private Christian and a publike State in many respects I will urge only in one viz. a publike State may at sometime both have and suffer thwarting crosse or contrary opinions to be believed and yet subsist though if it were granted not so peacebly not so secutely as is objected But a private Christian cannot possibly at one and the same time believe two diametrically opposite opinions to be true in the self same respect I wish you would be pleased to state the course and orderly conference you speak of p. 26. which doubtlesse all Independents will with you approve of I do not find it expressed in Scripture that Christian Magistrates have any thing to do in setting up an outward visible worship under the Gospell or that they can any wayes be furthering of it except by giving good example unto others as being members of the Church or in protecting the Saints whilest they apply themselves to worship God according to the integrity of their own consciences in spirit and in truth for since the Magistrates weapons are coercive teriall camall if they take upon them the vindication of spirituall neglect or defect each State setting up its own a different worship men must from time to time take that to be the truest and subject their consciences to that which hath the sharpest sword to fight for it still changing Religion according to the event of warre with the sundry alterations of States and Kingdomes And though I am not well satisfied with the expression you use concerning the conscience of a State I suppose you will sufficiently apprehend me if I querie whether the conscience of every State can be accountable and at the day of judgement excuse all such as have been cast away through false worships which they set up in relation to their own consciences respectively compelling the people to submit thereto If not I querie again if it be not are argument of greatest indiscretion for reasonable men and women to resigne up their own understandings unto such as cannot bear them harmlesse for so doing and of greatest presumption and tyrannie in those who assume unto themselves a spirituall dominion over others whom they can neither give a spirituall assurance to at present nor provide for them if need be a spirituall deliverance hereafter Pag. 28. You say the Civill Magistrate may not meddle with what is spirituall nor the Spirituall office bearer with what is Civill which I grant and yet p. 29. you say the Civill Magistrate must have the cognizance of the just and orderly behaviour of those which doe administer Spirituall ordinances wherein I beseech you consider whether this be not a direct way of setting the Civill and Spirituall office bearers at odds amongst themselves as put the case the Civill Magistrate tells the Spirituall that he hath not well orderly administred the Ordinances admonishes him to reforme and upon resusall proceeds to punish him on the contrary the Spirituall Magistrate justifies himselfe flyes to his Spirituall weapons in his owne defence and if they prevail not in likelihood endeavours to stir up the people against the Civill Magistrate and how you can avoid this great disturbance upon these grounds I cannot possibly imagine but much desire to be informed thereof if your leasure may permit and that upon further thoughts you continue of the same opinion You make it likewise within the sphere of the Civill Magistrate to keep people from choosing Teachers according to their owne humours their owne understandings and Teachers from drawing people after them how is this I beseech you consistent with the liberty nay the charge which is imposed upon Christians for trying of