Selected quad for the lemma: state_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
state_n	church_n	civil_a	punish_v	1,086	5	8.9722	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91887	Some few considerations propounded, as so many scruples by Mr. Henry Robinson in a letter to Mr. Iohn Dury upon his epistolary discourse: with Mr. Duryes answer thereunto. VVherein is observable with what overtures of spirit they endeavour to edifie each other, not withstanding their differing judgements and opinions about the Independent and Presbyterian way. Published by a well-willer to peace and truth, in expectation that it may no little conduce, either to the reconciling of such controversies, or to the debating them with lesse noise and bitternesse. Whereunto is annexed another epistolary discourse, written by Mr. John Dury, to a worthy knight, concerning the principles of meditation: from which rules may be gathered to direct men to order their thoughts, so as to finde a resolution of all their doubts.	Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?; Dury, John, 1596-1680.; Well-Willer to Peace and Truth.	1646 (1646)	Wing R1679; Thomason E345_1; ESTC R200979	39,103	49

account neither to God nor man but they are the Presbyterians which may be said both properly and actually to strive and that with carnall civill weapons whilest by their doctrine instigation or approbation their poor brethren which cannot with a good conscience comply with them are persecuted by discountenancing turning out of their Ministery and livelihoods imprisoning and banishing through grief and manifold inconveniences even unto death Pag. 24. You say if spirituall relation cannot be setled by the wisdome and loving affections of spirituall office-bearers within the Church amongst themselves then it is just that they should forfeit their spirituall right and liberty c. If this be so I would gladly see it proved from evidence of Scripture or good reason for I conccive that as Christ did only purchase for us our Christian rights and liberties so no State or Government no body but himself may take upon him to abridge us of them Secondly that no civill misdemeanors can be just cause to abridge us of our Christian liberty Thirdly that divisions in opinions about a Church-way do not necessarily conclude divisions in a State And lastly such as do actually disturb the civill State the publike peace both ought and may be punished even unto death without abridging such offenders much lesse the civilly innocent in their spirituall rights and liberties The utmost extent and height of Christians differing in opinion which I ever heard of was this First that they might have leave to search the Scriptures Secondly to try the spirits examine the doctrines which were taught them and so rejecting error hold fast the truth worshpping God in such a manner as he requires with confirming and edifying one another in all piety and godlinesse for discharging of a good conscience both towards God and man If it be objected that men may not worship God after a false manner under pretence of a true one nor publish errors in stead of truth I answer that nothing can be saving truth nor any kind of worshipping God prove acceptable from any man which is not held to be such in his own conscience and understanding I submit my self to heare reade or be informed in whatsoever shall be required of me and it may on strong presumptions be conceived that the sundry disadvantages I lie under in dissenting with the many benefits I might receive by conforming do make me no little willing and desirous that my very judgement and conscience could be brought about to approve and agree in what the State establisheth so it might be with a good conscience towards God and man but if after all this I shall professe in presence of the Lord that I do not finde evidence by all that was alledged for convincing of my conscience I desire to see cleer grounds from Scripture on which any politick ends of State may any wayes proceed to offer violence or any degree of compulsive means to work upon my conscience and understanding on which such spirituall as have hitherto been used were not able to prevail since such only we finde warrantable and sanctified in Scripture to this effect Pag. 25. They should be so tolerated as may be no prejudice to that Church whereof the State it self is professedly a nursing mother I cannot apprehend how the similitude can hold between a private Christian and a publike State in many respects I will urge only in one viz. a publike State may at sometime both have and suffer thwarting crosse or contrary opinions to be believed and yet subsist though if it were granted not so peacebly not so secutely as is objected But a private Christian cannot possibly at one and the same time believe two diametrically opposite opinions to be true in the self same respect I wish you would be pleased to state the course and orderly conference you speak of p. 26. which doubtlesse all Independents will with you approve of I do not find it expressed in Scripture that Christian Magistrates have any thing to do in setting up an outward visible worship under the Gospell or that they can any wayes be furthering of it except by giving good example unto others as being members of the Church or in protecting the Saints whilest they apply themselves to worship God according to the integrity of their own consciences in spirit and in truth for since the Magistrates weapons are coercive teriall camall if they take upon them the vindication of spirituall neglect or defect each State setting up its own a different worship men must from time to time take that to be the truest and subject their consciences to that which hath the sharpest sword to fight for it still changing Religion according to the event of warre with the sundry alterations of States and Kingdomes And though I am not well satisfied with the expression you use concerning the conscience of a State I suppose you will sufficiently apprehend me if I querie whether the conscience of every State can be accountable and at the day of judgement excuse all such as have been cast away through false worships which they set up in relation to their own consciences respectively compelling the people to submit thereto If not I querie again if it be not are argument of greatest indiscretion for reasonable men and women to resigne up their own understandings unto such as cannot bear them harmlesse for so doing and of greatest presumption and tyrannie in those who assume unto themselves a spirituall dominion over others whom they can neither give a spirituall assurance to at present nor provide for them if need be a spirituall deliverance hereafter Pag. 28. You say the Civill Magistrate may not meddle with what is spirituall nor the Spirituall office bearer with what is Civill which I grant and yet p. 29. you say the Civill Magistrate must have the cognizance of the just and orderly behaviour of those which doe administer Spirituall ordinances wherein I beseech you consider whether this be not a direct way of setting the Civill and Spirituall office bearers at odds amongst themselves as put the case the Civill Magistrate tells the Spirituall that he hath not well orderly administred the Ordinances admonishes him to reforme and upon resusall proceeds to punish him on the contrary the Spirituall Magistrate justifies himselfe flyes to his Spirituall weapons in his owne defence and if they prevail not in likelihood endeavours to stir up the people against the Civill Magistrate and how you can avoid this great disturbance upon these grounds I cannot possibly imagine but much desire to be informed thereof if your leasure may permit and that upon further thoughts you continue of the same opinion You make it likewise within the sphere of the Civill Magistrate to keep people from choosing Teachers according to their owne humours their owne understandings and Teachers from drawing people after them how is this I beseech you consistent with the liberty nay the charge which is imposed upon Christians for trying of

the spirits and holding fast that which is good if they may not heare such as they apprehend to be sent from Christ and imbrace such doctrines as they take to be saving truths and necessary to their salvation according to that light of reason and understanding in the Scriptures which God hath given them for this very purpose Pag. 36. If those you call common principles whilst you say the Apologists insisting on generalities cannot be brought to triall were demonstrative as you alleadge the Scriptures may bee demonstratively analized P. 4. I should thinke it the worke of some Angell to have it once effected and as well the Apologists as all others who now differ in opinion would quickly grow together into an unity of faith But till then I shall expect that according to the Scriptures there will be heresies and in the mean time conceive that nothing except this demonstrative analizing sacred truth will sooner vanquish them then the suffering them to bee with all possible freedome examined and debated which must necessarily infer the most acknowledged truths themselves to be subject to the same proceeding in that what one man Church or Nation takes to be truth another perhaps accounts no lesse then heresie And if Paul told the Galathians that if a good Angell an Angell from heaven should preach any other Gospell to them then what the Apostles had done before he should be accursed I conceive we may much more try the spirits of mortall men of like passions and infirmities with our selves consequently holding fast what wee finde sound and rejecting what appeares to bee erronious by the touchstone of holy Writ according to our owne reason understanding and faith since we neither may or can judge truly of them no more then see with the eyes of other men by the reason understanding and faith of others neither can I apprehend a third or any meane betwixt these two conditions To Pag. 30. I consesse a dissolved government may often times prove dangerous and fatail to any State both Civill and Ecclesiasticall and yet not so dangerous not fatall as a dominiering over rigid tyrannicall government especially in the spirituall state and both of them are therefore to be regulated according to their bounds and rules If Church discipline and censures will not prevaile on Church members I finde no warrant to flye to Civill but conceive it highly condemned even by that place of Paul where he blames the Corinthians for going to law with one another and that before unbeleevers besides all Civill states account themselves in a manner perfect for their civill condition and constitution As first they are compleat in Lawes they have as many as they will themselves they pretend to understand them fully even to the least jot and every man is bound to know them exactly and keep them in the letter But for spirituall matters we know but in part and therefore ought to reach forth to what is wanting not refusing to lend an eare unto it though tendered by a stammering illiterate tongue of some otherwise despised soule As all truth for the most part even from the beginning hath been discountenanced and rejected upon the first discovery and so much the rather in that the Primitive Christians however weak and ignorant in faith and knowledge the Apostles found them yet had they such amongst them in both respects as far exceeded all others ever since neither have we such infallible teachers like theirs to confirm unto us what we have for truth or adde unto us what is wanting To pag. 31. I must needs confesse the opinion of a greater light is no little deceitfull but doth not God require that we should walk according to such appearing light whether true or false I must be guided by it as it appears unto my selfe and how can God be angry with me for serving him to my power or how can man condemne me for differing from him when I have used all such rationall common principles which he could prescribe to bring me to be of this opinion without prevailing upon my conscience You say well with the Apostle that if any man thinketh he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know 1 Cor. 8. 2. and yet a man must be ruled by that which he thus but thinks to know so much lesse ground hath any man to impose what he knowes not for even his knowledge neither is no better upon another who knowing nothing yet knowes as much as himself Nay a Synod Councel or State have so little preemimence in this respect as that we must not look upon them with respect of persons unlesse we will justifie the Church of Rome in their implicit faith Pag. 32. You approve the casting off subjection and absolute obedience unto Episcopacy but would not have dissolved the brotherly corresponcie in a Presbyterie and certainly it should not be but it must then continue brotherly we must run hand in hand like brothers so long as we can keep a good conscience both towards God and man and if afterwards upon just grounds in our opinions for some respects we are forced to separate from them we shall be yet desirous to rest among them that if possibly they may be won by a godly conversation but if like a curst father or imperious Master they endeavour with rods and staves to drive us from our Father and Master which is in heaven or from our native countrey friends and livelihoods they do not only cease to be brotherly but cast away all hopes or possibility of reclaiming us if we were in an error Pap. 34. You make duties of practice no lesse fundamentall in the profession of Christianity then the knowledge of necessary truths according unto which principle I suppose the Apologists ought to be permitted both to practise such duties as they apprehend requisite and not to joyn with such as they esteem superfluous erroneous since both may be no lesse of faith then for one that eateth and another that eateth not whilest both give thanks to God as Paul sayes of them Rom. 14. 6. To pag. 37. As they will not refuse subjection to their own Pastor that hath the charge of their souls so much lesse when what he requires of them be confirmed by the approbation of a Presbyterie other Churches or Brethren but this must be in such things as they may yeeld unto with a good conscience and in case they finde reason for dissenting they are liable only to be censured by their own Church which hath power over them not by any others who have no jurisdiction much lesse authoritative o● compulsative Synods and Assemblies may well be convocated and take counsel debate and seek to vanquish such difficulties as arise without a Majesteriall jurisdiction which neither our Saviour or his Apostles did ever make use of or give command to others to practise it in after ages Christs kingdome was not of this world his body is mysticall and such

The third observation upon that which I say pag. 23. of the duty of gentlenesse in Gods servants to abstain from strife is an enlargement of the former complaint and accusation whereof I doubt you will hardly give good proof As to the generall I am sure the way doth not lead to such a practice what particular faults may be in some none can answer for It is wisdome and charity to deal with particulars in a particular way to recover them and not to impute their faults to all 4. The fourth observation is upon pag. 24. concerning the forf●iture of spirituall rights and liberties where to prevent mistakes I will now open my self more fully then that discourse did require I say then thus If men who pretend to be brethren in Christ cannot settle their mutuall relation of Brotherhood in a friendly way amongst themselves without such debates and quarrels as tend to the scandall of Christianity and disturbance of the publike peace that then God doth allow others namely his publike Vicegerents in the State to look to their ways and to take authority over them so as to order their publike courses for the prevention of such inconveniences But in case they can agree amongst themselves according to the Will of God for their mutuall edification in love then he hath no such power to prescribe any such course unto them If you understand the case rightly as I make it I suppose you will not at all scruple for my full meaning is this That brethren in Christ have a right and priviledge from Christ to settle the wayes of their brotherly profession of Christianity amongst themselves that is of edifying each other and of preventing offensive carriages both towards one another and towards forrainers nor can any man on earth deprive them of this right and priviledge so long as they use it in spirituall matters for the true end but if they abuse it to any other end or make no use at all of it but fall to quarrelling about it or about other matters and with their quarrels dishonour their profession and disturb the peace of others then Christ hath set one to look unto them to prevent and rectifie the inconveniencies which arise from their unrulinesse Now if I understand your scruple rightly you say nothing to my apprehension against this case because I grant fully that Christ hath purchased for us our Christian rights and priviledges and given power to use them for edification and not for destruction of one another I grant also that if we use them so then no state government or body in this world may abridge us of them but I deny that no misdemeanors can be a just cause to abridge us of such rights and priviledges as serve to order our own wayes in the publike profession For if our misdemeanor be such as may disturb the quiet of others then I say that the Magistrate as Christs Vicegerent over the publike society wherein and the outward human relations under which according to the lawes of nature we live together with these others hath a right to order these courses which are hurtfull to others to make them harmlesse and free from offences I may confesse that different opinions and Church-ways do not necessarily infer a division in the state because it is possible that men may be peaceable and orderly in publike courses not withstanding their private differences but yet we see by experience that ordinarily in all ages and places the difference of mens wayes in spirituall matters doth inferre a division in Affections and the division of Affections a division in outward carriages and relations and this a division in state matters because naturally private men aspire to make their differences publike and by gaining Adherents they come at last to fasten an interest of state upon themselves and so disturbe the state so farre as their interest doth reach If you acknowledge that the disturbers of a state may be punished with death you cannot deny to the Magistrate the right of inspection over the causes of disturbance and the power to use prevention lest the effects of evill causes breake forth into inconveniencies As for the priviledges of searching the Scriptures of trying the spirits of men and examining doctrins such like God forbid that they should be abridged but to have a priviledge of practising at large and in publick whatsoever any shal pretend to be his conscience and Religion and that the Magistrate may not have any thing to say to mens publicke wayes in such a kinde is a thing which I doe not conceive yet I would not have you thinke that I allow of all manner of compulsion and coercive power over the Consciences of men which is practised among such as endeavour to blinde the weake and vulgar sort that they may rule over them according to their owne will by an implicit faith But how farre the coercive power of the Magistrate doth goe in taking away the causes of offences I suppose may be gathered from Psal 101. and now it is not fit for me to enlarge my selfe upon that subject 5. The fifth Observation upon pag. 25. is a doubt how the similitude doth hold between a private Christian and a publicke State I answer 1. It doth hold in that for which I alleadge it 2. It doth hold proportionally each being taken in his sphere and according to his principles 3. It doth not hold in all imaginable circumstances as one and the same thing Nullum simile est idem nothing that is like is the very same and your exception is no difficulty For as a publicke State may suffer thwart crosse and contradictory opinions to be beleeved by its subjects and yet subsist So a private Christian may suffer the trouble of crosse and contradictory thoughts and doubtfull opinions and yet remaine a good and conscionable Christian till God cleer his judgement And to that which you require upon pag. 26. concerning the course of an orderly Conference that I should state it I say that that might easily be done if men could be obliged to follow it In all Conferences men shew themselves men and have an Art of fencing from which till God teach them fully to deny themselves they cannot be brought chiefly when they have set their Aime they will have their owne way to prosecute it and then when they can goe no further and lose their Aime they fall a complaining and telling stories of each other to their prejudice and reproach In the following part of this Observation you speake of the Magistrates Power where againe I see you mistake my meaning therefore to informe you aright I must tell you 1. That Christian Magistrates are not appointed by God to set up an outward and visible worship but their duty is to authorise protect and maintaine that which God in his word requireth 2. They are Custodes utriusque tabulae to oversee the wayes of the Churches as they relate the publike and of