They sate down in November and now it was May in this space of time which is but half a year they won from the King the adherence which was due to him from his People they drave his faithfulest Servants from him beheaded the Earl of Strafford imprison'd the Arch-bishop of Canterbury obtain'd a Triennial Parliament after their own Dissolution and a continuance of their own sitting as long as they listed which last amounted to a total Extinction of the King 's Right in case that such a Grant were valid which I think it is not unless the Sovereignty it self be in plain terms renounced which it was not But what Money by way of Subsidy or otherwise did they grant the King in recompence of all these his large Concessions A. None at all but often promised they would make him the most glorious King that ever was in England which were words that passed well enough for well meaning with the Common People B. But the Parliament was contented now for I cannot imagine what they should desire more from the King than he had now granted them A. Yes they desir'd the whole and absolute Sovereignty and to change the Monarchical Government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the Sovereignty for the present and shortly after to lay the House of Lords aside for this was the Design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by Divine Right the only lawful Governors of the Church endeavoured to bring the same form of Government into the Civil State And as the Spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so the Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than they formerly had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out-gone by their own Disciples though not in Malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a Journey into Scotland to satisfie his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good Wills that in case the Parliament here should Levy Arms against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceiv'd for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giving way to the abolition of Episcopacy yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for Money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments quarrel but this was a year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the Ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together now pretend to A. It is a Question of things so long past that they are now forgotten Nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things done only sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what Right they pretended B. Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Ancient Authors that speak of the forms of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancestors the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Argument of Right but only Examples of Fact which by the Ambition of potent Subjects have been oftner unjust than otherwise And for those Saxons or Angles that in Ancient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of divers petty German Lords and States such as was the Grecian Army in the Trojan War without other obligation than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness Nor were those Lords for the most part the Sovereigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the Forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity when they had conquered any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof that the rest should have greater priviledges than the Common People and Soldiers amongst which priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Councel with him that hath the Sovereignty in matter of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Sovereign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the King's Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those Honours and Places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of discreet and wise Men of the Kingdom and hear their Counsel and make them Judges of all Causes that during their sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever the power at his pleasure to dissolve them The Normans also that descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this priviledge of the Lords to be of the King 's Great Councel and when they were assembled to be the Highest of the King's Courts of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only Name of Baron a Name receiv'd from the Ancient Gaules amongst whom that Name signified the King's Man or rather one of his Great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Counsel when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's Great Councel A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Councel though they were not Lords but that is nothing to the House of Commons The Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of the Reign of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the misbehaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time
to offer them this Union by publick Declaration and to warn them to choose their Deputies of Shires and Burgesses of Towns and send them to Westminster B. This was a very great favour A. I think so and yet it was by many of the Scots especially by the Ministers and other Presbyterians refus'd The Ministers had given way to the Levying of Money for the payment of the English Soldiers but to comply with the Declaration of the English Commissioners they absolutely forbad B. Methinks this contributing to the pay of their Conquerors was some mark of servitude whereas entring into the Union made them free and gave them equal priviledge with the English A. The Cause why they refus'd the Union rendred by the Presbyterians themselves was this That it drew with it a Subordination of the Church to the Civil State in the things of Christ. B. This is a downright Declaration to all Kings and Common-wealths in general that a Presbyterian Minister will be a true Subject to none of them in the things of Christ which things what they are they will be Judges themselves What have we then gotten by our deliverance from the Pope's Tyranny if these petty men succeed in the place of it that have nothing in them that can be beneficial to the Publick except their silence For their Learning it amounts to no more than an imperfect knowledge of Greek and Latin and an acquir'd readiness in the Scripture-Language with a Gesture and Tone suitable thereunto but of Justice and Charity the Manners of Religion they have neither knowledge nor practice as is manifest by the Stories I have already told you Nor do they distinguish between the Godly and the Ungodly but by conformity of Design in Men of Judgment or by repetition of their Sermons in the common sort of People B. But this sullenness of the Scots was to no purpose for they at Westminster enacted the Union of the two Nations and the abolition of Monarchy in Scotland and ordained punishment for those that should transgress that Act. B. What other business did the Rump this year A. They sent St. Johns and Strickland Ambassadors to the Hague to offer League to the United Provinces who had Audience March the third St. Johns in a Speech shewed those States what advantage they might have by this League in their Trade and Navigations by the use of the English Ports and Harbors The Dutch though they shewed no great forwardness in the business yet appointed Commissioners to treat with them about it But the People were generally against it calling the Ambassadors and their Followers as they were Traitors and Murderers and made such Tumults about their House that their Followers durst not go abroad till the States had quieted them The Rump advertis'd hereof presently recall'd them The Compliment which St. Johns gave to the Commissioners at their taking leave is worth your hearing You have said he an Eye upon the event of the Affairs of Scotland and therefore do refuse the friendship we have offered Now I can assure you many in the Parliament were of opinion that we should not have sent any Ambassadors to you till we had superated those matters between them and that King and then expected your Ambassadors to us I now perceive our error and that those Gentlemen were in the Right In a short time you shall see that business ended and then you will come and seek what we have freely offered when it shall perplex you that you have refused our proffer B. St. Johns was not sure that the Scottish business would end as it did For though the Scots were beaten at Dunbar he could not be sure of the event of their entring England which happened afterward A. But he guess'd well for within a Month after the Battle at Worcester an Act passed forbidding the Importing of Merchandise in other than English Ships The English also molested their Fishing upon our Coast. They also many times searched their Ships upon occasion of our War with France and made some of them Prize And then the Dutch sent their Ambassadors hither to desire what they before refused but partly also to inform themselves what Naval Forces the English had ready and how the People here were contented with the Government B. How sped they A. The Rump shewed now as little desire of Agreement as the Dutch did then standing upon Terms never likely to be granted First for the fishing on the English Coast that they should not have it without paying for it Secondly that the English should have free Trade from Middleburgh to Antwerp as they had before their Rebellion against the King of Spain Thirdly they demanded amends for the old but never to be forgotten business of Amboyna So that the War was already certain though the Season kept them from Action till the Spring following The true Quarrel on the English part was that their profer'd friendship was scorn'd and their Ambassadors affronted On the Dutch part was their greediness to engross all Traffique and a false estimate of our and their own strength Whilst these things were doing the Reliques of the War both in Ireland and Scotland were not neglected though those Nations were not fully pacified till two years after The persecution also of Royalists still continued amongst whom was beheaded one Mr. Love for holding correspondence with the King B. I had thought a Presbyterian Minister whilst he was such could not be a Royalist because they think their Assembly have the Supream Power in the things of Christ and by consequence they are in England by a Statute Traitors A. You may think so still for though I call'd Mr. Love a Royalist I meant it only for that one Act for which he was condemn'd It was he who during the Treaty at Vxbridge preaching before the Commissioners there said it was as possible for Heaven and Hell as for the King and Parliament to agree Both he and the rest of the Presbyterians are and were Enemies to the King's Enemies Cromwel and his Fanaticks for their own not for the King's sake Their Loyalty was like that of Sir John Hotham's that kept the King out of Hull and afterwards would have betrayed the same to the Marquess of New-Castle These Presbyterians therefore cannot be rightly called Loyal but rather doubly perfidious unless you think that as two Negatives make an Affirmative so two Treasons make Loyalty This year also were reduced to the obedience of the Rump the Islands of Scilly and Man and the Barbadoes and St. Christophers One thing fell out that they liked not which was that Cromwel gave them warning to determine their sitting according to the Bill for Triennial Parliaments B. That I think indeed was harsh A. In the year 1652. May the 14 th began the Dutch War in this manner Three Dutch Men of War with divers Merchants from the Straights being discovered by one Captain Young who commanded some English Frigats the said Young sent to their
that will voluntarily present himself to the Officers of Justice Do not we see that all men when they are led to Execution are both bound and guarded and would break loose if they could and get away Such is their Passive Obedience Christ saith The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do Mat 23.3 which is a doing an Active Obedience and yet the Scribes and Pharisees appear not by the Scripture to have been such godly men as never to command any thing against the revealed Will of God B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively Or is there nothing wherein a lawful King's Command may be disobeyed What if he should command me with my own hands to execute my Father in case he should be condemn'd to die by the Law A. This is a Case that need not be put We never have read nor heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it If any did we are to consider whether that Command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean the disobeying of his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applyed to any particular person for the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of Domestick Servants yet he commands the People in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Politick not a Natural Person And if such a Command as you speak of were contriv'd into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the Publication of the Law and before the Condemnation of your Father B. Your Author says farther in refusing Active Obedience to the King that commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assur'd that the thing is so contrary I would fain know how it is possible to be assur'd A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own mouth receive any command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures And because men do for the most part rather draw the Scripture to their own sense than follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all Cases what God commands or forbids us to do but by the Sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sense of the Scripture upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question And they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Common-wealths whether they be Bishops or Ministers or Assemblies that govern the Church under him or them that have the Sovereign Power B. Some doubts may be rais'd from this that you now say for if Men be to learn their Duty from the Sentence which other Men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were translated into English and every man not only permitted but also exhorted to read them For what could that produce but diversity of opinion and consequently as Man's Nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scripture was allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean Capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English And as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the Transgression of some Law The same Question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those Men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that Question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4.19 when by Annas the High Priest and others of the Councel of Jerusalem they were forbidden to teach any more in the Name of Jesus Whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God A. The Case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrought did know he was God and consequently knew certainly that their disobedience to the High-Priests present Command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own Mouth receiv'd a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the Form and Nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places directly and evidently commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite does not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King's shall decide the Questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is Head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not received but by the Authority of Kings and States Chief Judge of the rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture To obey the Kings Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey but to obey God A Minister ought not to think that his skill in the Latin Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a Priviledge to impose upon all his Fellow-Subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as oft as he hath found out some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by Inspiration for he cannot be assur'd of that no nor that his Interpretation as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his stubbornness and contumacy toward the King and his Laws is nothing but Pride of Heart and Ambition or else Imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easie to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as is necessary to salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispossess the mind of any ordinary Readers that the reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great damage to them and the Common-wealth B. All that is requir'd both in Faith and Manners for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children obey your Parents in all things Servants obey your Masters Let all Men be subject to the Higher Powers whether it be the King or those that
are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty to do so They see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon their doing it Every man by nature without discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself from his obedience He reads that Covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is seal'd up in Greek and Latin and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers But they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot choose but by their reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and Quality are followed by their inferior Neighbours that look more upon the Example of those Men whom they reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease than upon Precepts and Laws B. These Men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others These are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places which teach them their Duty fall to scanning only of the Mysteries of Religion such as are How it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but One How the Deity could be made Flesh How that Flesh could be really present in many places at once Where 's the Place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines Whether the Will of Man be free or governed by the Will of God Whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education By whom Christ now speaks to us Whether by the King or by the Clergy or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like Points are the study of the Curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of Men whom the Scripture had taught belief in Christ Love towards God Obedience to the King and sobriety of behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scripture to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their Interpretation for the Word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know is so easie as not to need Interpretation Whatsoever is more does them no good But in case any of those unnecessary Doctrines shall be authorized by the Laws of the King or other State I say it is the Duty of every Subject not to speak against them in as much as it is every man's Duty to obey Him or Them that have the Sovereign Power and the Wisdom of all such Powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to Sedition or Disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had their breeding in the Universities for such curious Questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those Politick Questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastick Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the Works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their Disputation against the necessary Power of their Sovereigns Therefore I despair of any lasting Peace amongst our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their Studies to the setling of it that is to the teaching of absolute Obedience to the Laws of the King and to his Publick Edicts under the Great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid Reason back'd with the Authority of so many Learned Men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any Victory can do over the Rebels but I am afraid that 't is impossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business A. Seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all Points for the King's Power presently after that King Henry the 8 th was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are governed and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferior Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their Spiritual Power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by a successive Imposition of Hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the Hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off For though they were content that the Divine Right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nouns and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters
Cromwel after he had gotten into his own hands the absolute power of England Scotland and Ireland by the Name of Protector did never dare to take upon him the Title of King nor was ever able to settle it upon his Children His Officers would not suffer it as pretending after his death to succeed him nor would the Army consent to it because he had ever declared to them against the Government of a single person B. But to return to the King What Means had he to pay What Provision had he to Arm nay Means to Levy an Army able to resist the Army of the Parliament maintained by the great Purse of the City of London and Contributions of almost all the Towns Corporate in England and furnished with Arms as fully as they could require A. 'T is true the King had great disadvantages and yet by little and little he got a considerable Army with which he so prospered as to grow stronger every day and the Parliament weaker till they had gotten the Scotch with an Army of 21000 Men to come into England to their Assistance But to enter into the particular Narration of what was done in the War I have not now time B. Well then we will talk of that at next meeting Behemoth PART III. B. WE left at the Preparations on both sides for War which when I considered by my self I was mightily puzled to find out what possibility there was for the King to equal the Parliament in such a course and what hopes he had of Money Men Arms Fortified places Shipping Councel and Military Officers sufficient for such an Enterprize against the Parliament that had Men and Money as much at command as the City of London and other Corporation Towns were able to furnish which was more than they needed And for the Men they should set forth for Soldiers they were almost all of them spightfully bent against the King and his whole Party whom they took to be either Papists or Flatterers of the King or that had designed to raise their Fortunes by the plunder of the City and other Corporation Towns And though I believe not that they were more valiant than other Men nor that they had so much experience in the War as to be accounted good Soldiers yet they had that in them which in time of Battle is more conducing to Victory than Valor and Experience both together and that was spight And for Arms they had in their hands the Chief Magazines the Tower of London and the Town of Kingston upon Hull besides most of the Powder and Shot that lay in several Towns for the use of the Train'd Bands Fortified places there were not many then in England and most of them in the hands of the Parliament The King's Fleet was wholly in their Command under the Earl of Warwick Councellors they needed no more than such as were of their own Body so that the King was every way inferior to them except it were perhaps in Officers A. I cannot compare their Chief Officers for the Parliament the Earl of Essex after the Parliament had voted the War was made General of all their Forces both in England and Ireland from whom all other Commanders were to receive their Commissions B. What moved them to make General the Earl of Essex And for what cause was the Earl of Essex so displeased with the King as to accept that Office A. I do not certainly know what to answer to either of those Questions but the Earl of Essex had been in the Wars abroad and wanted neither Experience Judgment nor Courage to perform such an undertaking And besides that you have heard I believe how great a Darling of the People his Father had been before him and what Honour he had gotten by the Success of his Enterprize upon Cales and in some other Military Actions To which I may add that this Earl himself was not held by the people to be so great a Favorite at Court as that they might not trust him with their Army against the King And by this you may perhaps conjecture the Cause for which the Parliament made choice of him for General B. But why did they think him discontented with the Court A. I know not that nor indeed that he was so He came to the Court as other Noble-men did when occasion was to wait upon the King but had no Office till a little before this time to oblige him to be there continually but I believe verily that the unfortunateness of his Marriages had so discountenanced his Conversation with Ladies that the Court could not be his proper Element unless he had had some extraordinary favour there to ballance that Calamity but for particular discontent from the King or intention of revenge for any supposed disgrace I think he had none nor that he was any ways addicted to Presbyterian Doctrines or other Fanatick Tenets in Church or State saving only that he was carried away with the Stream in a manner of the whole Nation to think that England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy not considering that the Supream Power must always be absolute whether it be in the King or in the Parliament B. Who was General of the King's Army A. None yet but himself nor indeed had he yet any Army but there coming to him at that time his two Nephews the Princes Rupert and Maurice he put the Command of his Horse into the Hands of Prince Rupert a Man than whom no man living has a better Courage nor was more active and diligent in prosecuting his Commissions and though but a young man then was not without experience in the conducting of Soldiers as having been an Actor in part of his Fathers Wars in Germany B. But how could the King find Money to pay such an Army as was necessary for him against the Parliament A. Neither the King nor Parliament had much Money at that time in their own Hands but were fain to rely upon the Benevolence of those that took their parts Wherein I confess the Parliament had a mighty great advantage Those that helped the King in that kind were only Lords and Gentlemen which not approving the proceedings of the Parliament were willing to undertake the payment every one of a certain number of Horse which cannot be thought any very great assistance the persons that payed them being so few For other Moneys that the King then had I have not heard of any but what he borrowed upon Jewels in the Low Countries Whereas the Parliament had a very plentiful Contribution not only from London but generally from their Faction in all other places of England upon certain Propositions published by the Lords and Commons in June 1642. at what time they had newly voted that the King intended to make War upon them for bringing in of Money or Plate to maintain Horse and Horse-men and to buy Arms for the preservation of the publick Peace and for the defence of the
6000 Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolved to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army in England This hap'ned well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that in stead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Collonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same Resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon removed This done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London feasted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters and then Doctors A. They had made themselves already Masters both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Dr. Cromwel intituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the King's Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy amongst themselves and these Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanricard and my Lord Inchiquin so that they were the greatest united strength in the Island but there were amongst them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuntio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord-Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it did to preserve the Place for the Protestants surrender it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at that time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the News that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond engaging themselves to submit absolutely to the King's Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And hereupon he was sent back this was about a year before the going over of Cromwel In which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuntio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Sally out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arrived Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid executions in less than a twelvemonth that he stayed there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having killed or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton dyed there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorislaus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been employed in the drawing up of the Charge against the late King but the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber killed him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham one that had written in defence of his Masters was killed in the same manner About this time came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an English Independent in answer to it B. I have seen them both They are very good Latin both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning hardly to be judged which is worse like two Declamations Pro and Con made for exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same Man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act which runs thus Be it enacted and declar'd by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the People of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth Were the People no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any Forreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the People could have been cozned with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words You shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the Royal Party forbidding also every one of them to depart more than five Miles from his Dwelling house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were Levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army and these were the main things that passed this year The Marquess of Montrosse that in the year 1645. had with a few men and in little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the year 1650. in the North of Scotland with
God He offers no proof against any of this but says only I make Atheism to be more reasonable than Superstition which is not true For I deny that there is any reason either in the Atheist or in the Superstitious And because the Atheist thinks he has reason where he has none I think him the more irrational of the two But all this while he argues not against any of this but enquires only what is become of my natural Worship of God and of his Existency Infiniteness Incomprehensibility Unity and Ubiquity As if whatsoever reason can suggest must be suggested all at once First all men by nature had an opinion of Gods Existency but of his other Attributes not so soon but by reasoning and by degrees And for the Attributes of the true God they were never suggested but by the Word of God written In that I say Atheism is a sin of ignorance he says I excuse it The Prophet David says The fool hath said in his heart There is no God Is it not then a sin of folly 'T is agreed between us that right reason dictates There is a God Does it not follow that denying of God is a sin proceeding from mis-reasoning If it be not a sin of ignorance it must be a sin of malice Can a man malice that which he thinks has no being But may not one think there is a God and yet maliciously deny him If he think there is a God he is no Atheist and so the question is changed into this whether any man that thinks there is a God dares deliberately deny it For my part I think not For upon what confidence dares any man deliberately I say oppose the Omnipotent David saith of himself My feet were ready to slip when I saw the prosperity of the wicked Therefore it is likely the feet of men less holy slip oftner But I think no man living is so daring being out of passion as to hold it as his opinion Those wicked men that for a long time proceeded so succesfully in the late horrid Rebellion may perhaps make some think they were constant and resolved Atheists but I think rather that they forgot God than believed there was none He that believes there is such an Atheist comes a little too near that opinion himself Nevertheless if words spoken in passion signifie a denial of a God no punishment praeordained by Law can be too great for such an insolence because there is no living in a Common-wealth with men to whose oaths we cannot reasonably give credit As to that I say An Atheist is punished by God not as a Subject by his King but as an Enemy and to my argument for it namely because he never acknowledged himself Gods Subject He opposeth That if nature dictate that there is a God and to be worshiped in such and such manner then Atheism is not a sin of meer ignorance as if either I or he did hold that Nature dictates the manner of Gods Worship or any article of our Creed or whether to worship with or without a Surplice Secondly he answers that a Rebel is still a Subject de Jure though not de Facto And 't is granted But though the King lose none of his right by the Traytors act yet the Traytor loseth the priviledg of being punisht by a praecedent Law and therefore may be punish'd at the Kings will as Ravillac was for murdering Henry the 4th of France An open Enemy and a perfidious Traytor are both enemies Had not his Lordship read in the Roman story how Perseus and other just enemies of that State were wont to be punished But what is this trifling question to my excusing of Atheism In the seventh Paragraph of my Book de Cive he found the words in Latin which he here citeth And to the same sense I have said in my Leviathan That the right of nature whereby God raigneth over men is to be derived not from his creating them as if he required obedience as of Gratitude but from his irresistable Power This he says is absurd and dishonourable Whereas first all power is honourable and greatest power is most honourable Is it not a more noble tenure for a King to hold his Kingdom and the right to punish those that transgress his Laws from his Power than from the gratitude or gift of the Transgressor There is nothing therefore here of dishonour to God Almighty But see the subtility of his disputing He saw he could not catch Leviathan in this place he looks for him in my Book de Cive which is Latine to try what he could fish out of that And says I make our obedience to God depend upon our weakness as if these words signified the Dependence and not the necessity of our submission or that incumbere and dependere were all one J. D. For T. H. his God is not the God of Christians nor of any rational men Our God is every where and seeing he hath no parts he must be wholly here and wholly there and wholly every where So Nature it self dictateth It cannot be said honourably of God that he is in a place for nothing is in a place but that which hath proper bounds of its greatness But T. H. his God is not wholly every where No man can conceive that any thing is all in this place and all in another place at the same time for none of these things ever have or can be incident to sense So far well if by conceiving he mean comprehending but then follows That these are absurd Speeches taken upon credit without any signification at all from deceived Philosophers and deceived or deceiving School-men Thus he denieth the Ubiquity of God A Circumscriptive a Definitive and a Repletive being in a place is some heathen language to him T. H. Though I believe the Omnipotence of God and that he can do what he will yet I dare not say how every thing is done because I cannot conceive nor comprehend either the Divine substance or the way of its operation And I think it Impiety to speak concerning God any thing of my own head or upon the Authority of Philosophers or School-men which I understand not without warrant in the Scripture And what I say of Omnipotence I say also of Ubiquity But his Lordship is more valiant in this place telling us that God is wholly here and wholly there and wholly every where because he has no parts I cannot comprehend nor conceive this For methinks it implies also that the whole World is also in the whole God and in every part of God nor can I conceive how any thing can be called Whole which has no parts nor can I find any thing of this in the Scripture If I could find it there I could believe it and if I could find it in the publick Doctrine of the Church I could easily abstain from contradicting it The School-men say also that the Soul of Man meaning his upper Soul which
lawful for a man to value his own life or his limbs more than his God How much is he wiser than the three Children or Daniel himself who were thrown the first into a fiery Furnace the last into the Lions Denn because they refused to comply with the Idolatrous Decree of their Soveraign Prince T. H. Here also my words are truly cited But his Lordship understood not what the word Worship signifies and yet he knew what I meant by it To think highly of God as I had defined it is to honour him But to think is internal To Worship is to signifie that Honour which we inwardly give by signs external This understood as by his Lordship it was all he says to it is but a cavil J. D. A fourth Aphorism may be this That which is said in the Scripture it is better to obey God than man hath place in the Kingdom of God by Pact and not by Nature Why Nature it self doth teach us it is better to obey God than men Neither can he say that he intended this only of obedience in the use of indifferent actions and gestures in the service of God commanded by the Common-wealth for that is to obey both God and man But if divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is evermore better to obey God than man T. H. Here again appears his unskilfulness in reasoning Who denyes but it is alwayes and in all causes better to obey God than Man But there is no Law neither divine nor humane that ought to be taken for a Law till we know what it is and if a divine Law till we know that God hath commanded it to be kept We agree that the Scriptures are the Word of God But they are a Law by Pact that is to us who have been Baptized into the Covenant To all others it is an invitation only to their own benefit 'T is true that even nature suggesteth to us that the Law of God is to be obeyed rather than the Law of man But nature does not suggest to us that the Scripture is the Law of God much less how every Text of it ought to be interpreted But who then shall suggest this Dr. Bramhall I deny it Who then The stream of Divines Why so Am I that have the Scripture it self before my eyes obliged to venture my eternal life upon their interpretation how learned soever they pretend to be when no counter-security that they can give me will save me harmless If not the stream of Divines who then The lawful Assembly of Pastors or of Bishops But there can be no lawful Assembly in England without the Authority of the King The Scripture therefore what it is and how to be interpreted is made known unto us here by no other way than the Authority of our Soveraign Lord both in Temporals and Spirituals The Kings Majesty And where he has set forth no Interpretation there I am allowed to follow my own as well as any other man Bishop or not Bishop For my own part all that know me know also it is my opinion That the best government in Religion is by Episcopacy but in the King 's Right not in their own But my Lord of Derry not contented with this would have the utmost resolution of our Faith to be into the Doctrine of the Schools I do not think that all the Bishops be of his mind If they were I would wish them to stand in fear of that dreadful Sentence All covet all lose I must not let pass these words of his Lordship If divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is better evermore to obey God than man Where the King is a Christian believes the Scripture and hath the Legislative power both in Church and State and maketh no Laws concerning Christian Faith or divine Worship but by the Counsel of his Bishops whom he trusteth in that behalf if the Bishops counsel him aright what clashing can there be between the divine and humane Laws For if the Civil Law be against God's Law and the Bishops make it clearly appear to the King that it clasheth with divine Law no doubt he will mend it by himself or by the advice of his Parliament for else he is no professor of Christ's Doctrine and so the clashing is at an end But if they think that every opinion they hold though obscure and unnecessary to Salvation ought presently to be Law then there will be clashings innumerable not only of Laws but also of Swords as we have found it too true by late experience But his Lordship is still at this that there ought to be for the divine Laws that is to say for the interpretation of Scripture a Legislative power in the Church distinct from that of the King which under him they enjoy already This I deny Then for clashing between the Civil Laws of Infidels with the Law of God the Apostles teach that those their Civil Laws are to be obeyed but so as to keep their Faith in Christ entirely in their hearts which is an obedience easily performed But I do not believe that Augustus Caesar or Nero was bound to make the holy Scripture Law and yet unless they did so they could not attain to eternal life J. D. His fifth conclusion may be that the sharpest and most successful Sword in any War whatsoever doth give Soveraign Power and Authority to him that hath it to approve or reject all sorts of Theological Doctrines concerning the Kingdom of God not according to their truth or falshood but according to that influence which they have upon political affairs Hear him But because this Doctrine will appear to most men a novelty I do but propound it maintaining nothing in this or any other Paradox of Religion but attending the end of that dispute of the Sword concerning the Authority not yet amongst my Country-men decided by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved or rejected c. For the points of Doctrine concerning the Kingdom of God have so great influence upon the Kingdom of Man as not to be determined but by them that under God have the Soveraign Power Careat successibus opto Quisquis ab eventu facta notanda putat Let him evermore want success who thinketh actions are to be judged by their events This Doctrine may be plausible to those who desire to fish in troubled Waters But it is justly hated by those which are in Authority and all those who are lovers of peace and tranquillity The last part of this conclusion smelleth rankly of Jeroboam Now shall the Kingdom return to the house of David if this people go up to do Sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem whereupon the King took counsel and made two Calves of Gold and said unto them It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem behold thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the Land of Aegypt But by the
had in their sleep or in an extasie which in every true Prophet were Supernatural but in false Prophets were either natural or feigned and more likely to be false than true To say God hath spoken to him in a Dream is no more than to say he dreamed that God spake to him c. To say he hath seen a Vision or heard a Voice is to say That he hath dreamed between sleeping and waking So St. Peter's Holy Ghost is come to be their own imaginations which might be either feigned or mistaken or true As if the Holy Ghost did enter only at their eyes and at their ears not into their understandings nor into their minds Or as if the Holy Ghost did not seal unto their hearts the truth and assurance of their Prophesies Whether a new light be infused into their understandings or new graces be inspired into their heart they are wrought or caused or created immediately by the Holy Ghost And so are his imaginations if they be Supernatural T. H. For the places of my Leviathan he cites they are all as they stand both true and clearly proved the setting of them down by Fragments is no Refutation nor offers he any Argument against them His consequences are not deduced I never said that the Holy Ghost was an Imagination or a Dream or a Vision but that the Holy Ghost spake most often in the Scripture by Dreams and Visions supernatural The next words of his As if the Holy Ghost did enter only at their eyes and at their ears not into their understandings nor into their minds I let pass because I cannot understand them His last words Whether new light c. I understand and approve J. D. But he must needs fall into these absurdities who maketh but a jest of inspiration They who pretend Divine inspiration to be a supernatural entring of the Holy Ghost into a Man are as he thinks in a very dangerous Dilemma for if they worship not the Men whom they conceive to be inspired they fall into impiety and if they worship them they commit Idolatry So mistaking the Holy Ghost to be corporeal some thing that is blown into a Man and the Graces of the Holy Ghost to be corporeal Graces And the words inpoured or infused virtue and inblown or inspired virtue are as absurd and insignificant as a round Quadrangle He reckons it as a common error That faith and sanctity are not attained by study and reason but by supernatural inspiration or infusion And layeth this for a firm ground Faith and Sanctity are indeed not very frequent but yet they are not Miracles but brought to pass by Education Discipline Correction and other natural wayes I would see the greatest Pelagian of them all fly higher T. H. I make here no jest of Inspiration Seriously I say that in the proper signification of the words Inspiration and Infusion to say virtue is inspired or infused is as absurd as to say a Quadrangle is round But Metaphorically for Gods bestowing of Faith Grace or other Vertue those words are intelligible enough J. D. Why should he trouble himself about the Holy Spirit who acknowledgeth no Spirit but either a subtil fluid body or a Ghost or other Idol or Phantasm of the imagination who knoweth no inward Grace or intrinsecal Holyness Holy is a word which in Gods Kingdom answereth to that which men in their Kingdoms use to call publick or the Kings And again wheresoever the word Holy is taken properly there is still some thing signified of propriety gotten by consent His Holiness is a Relation not a Quality for inward sanctification or real infused holiness in respect whereof the third Person is called the Holy Ghost because he is not only holy in himself but also maketh us holy he is so great a stranger to it that he doth altogether deny it and disclaim it T. H. The word Holy I had defined in the words which his Lordship here sets down and by the use thereof in the Scripture made it manifest That that was the true signification of the word There is nothing in Learning more difficult than to determine the signification of words That difficulty excuses him He says that Holiness in my sence is a Relation not a Quality All the Learned agree that Quality is an Accident so that in attributing to God Holiness as a Quality he contradicts himself for he has in the beginning of this his discourse denyed and rightly that any Accident is in God saying whatsoever is in God is the Divine Substance He affirms also that to attribute any Accident to God is to deny the simplicity of the Divine Substance And thus his Lordship makes God as I do a Corporeal Spirit Both here and throughout he discovers so much ignorance as had he charged me with error only and not with Atheism I should not have thought it necessary to answer him J. D. We are taught in our Creed to believe the Catholick or Universal Church But T. H. teacheth us the contrary That if there be more Christian Churches than one all of them together are not one Church personally And more plainly Now if the whole number of Christians be not contained in one Common-wealth they are not one Person nor is there an Vniversal Church that hath any Authority over them And again The Vniversal Church is not one Person of which it can be said that it hath done or Decreed or Ordained or Excommunicated or Absolved This doth quite overthrow all the Authority of General Councils All other Men distinguish between the Church and the Common-wealth only T. H. maketh them to be one and the same thing The Common-wealth of Christian men and the Church of the same are altogether the same thing called by two names for two reasons For the matter of the Church and of the Common-wealth is the same namely the same Christian men and the Form is the same which consisteth in the lawful power of convocating them And hence he concludeth That every Christian Common-wealth is a Church endowed with all spiritual Authority And yet more fully The Church if it be one Person is the same thing with the Common-wealth of Christians called a Common-wealth because it consisteth of men united in one Person their Soveraign And a Church because it consisteth in Christian men united in one Christian Soveraign Upon which account there was no Christian Church in these Parts of the World for some hundreds of years after Christ because there was no Christian Soveraign T. A. For answer to this Period I say only this That taking the Church as I do in all those places for a company of Christian men on Earth incorporated into one Person that can speak command or do any act of a Person all that he citeth out of what I have written is true and that all private Conventicles though their belief be right are not properly called Churches and that there is not any one Universal Church here on Earth
which is a Person indued with Authority universal to govern all Christian men on Earth no more than there is one Universal Soveraign Prince or State on Earth that hath right to govern all Mankind I deny also that the whole Clergy of a Christian Kingdom or State being assembled are the representative of that Church further than the Civil Laws permits or can lawfully assemble themselves unless by the command or by the leave of the Soveraign Civil Power I say further that the denyal of this point tendeth in England towards the taking away of the Kings Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical But his Lordship has not here denyed any thing of mine because he has done no more but set down my words He says further that this Doctrine destroyes the Authority of all General Councils which I confess Nor hath any General Council at this day in this Kingdom the force of a Law nor ever had but by the Authority of the King J. D. Neither is he more Orthodox concerning the Holy Scriptures Hitherto that is for the Books of Moses the power of making the Scripture Canonical was in the Civil Soveraign The like he saith of the Old Testament made Canonical by Esdras And of the New Testament That it was not the Apostles which made their own Writings Canonical but every Convert made them so to himself Yet with this restriction That until the Soveraign Ruler had prescribed them they were but Counsel and Advice which whether good or bad he that was counselled might without injustice refuse to observe and being contrary to the Laws established could not without injustice observe He maketh the Primitive Christians to have been in a pretty condition Certainly the Gospel was contrary to the Laws then established But most plainly The word of the Interpreter of the Scripture is the word of God And the same is the Interpreter of the Scripture and the Soveraign Judge of all Doctrines that is the Soveraign Magistrate to whose Authority we must stand no less than to theirs who at first did commend the Scripture to us for the Canon of Faith Thus if Christian Soveraigns of different Communications do clash one with another in their interpretations or misinterpretation of Scripture as they do daily then the word of God is contradictory to it self or that is the word of God in one Common-wealth which is the word of the Devil in another Common-wealth And the same thing may be true and not true at the same time Which is the peculiar priviledge of T.H. to make Contradictories to be true together T. H. There is no doubt but by what Authority the Scripture or any other Writing is made a Law by the same Authority the Scriptures are to be interpreted or else they are made Law in vain But to obey is one thing to believe is another which distinction perhaps his Lordship never heard of To obey is to do or forbear as one is commanded and depends on the Will but to believe depends not on the Will but on the providence and guidance of our hearts that are in the hands of God Almighty Laws only required obedience Belief requires Teachers and Arguments drawn either from Reason or from some thing already believed Where there is no reason for our Belief there is no reason we should believe The reason why men believe is drawn from the Authority of those men whom we have no just cause to mistrust that is of such men to whom no profit accrues by their deceiving us and of such men as never used to lye or else from the Authority of such men whose Promises Threats and Affirmations we have seen confirmed by God with Miracles If it be not from the Kings Authority that the Scripture is Law what other Authority makes it Law Here some man being of his Lordships judgment will perhaps laugh and say 't is the Authority of God that makes them Law I grant that But my question is on what Authority they believe that God is the Author of them Here his Lordship would have been at a Nonplus and turning round would have said the Authority of the Scripture makes good that God is their Author If it be said we are to believe the Scripture upon the Authority of the Universal Church why are not the Books we call Apocrypha the Word of God as well as the rest If this Authority be in the Church of England then it is not any other than the Authority of the Head of the Church which is the King For without the Head the Church is mute the Authority therefore is in the King which is all that I contended for in this point As to the Laws of the Gentiles concerning Religion in the Primitive times of the Church I confess they were contrary to Christian Faith But none of their Laws nor Terrors nor a mans own Will are able to take away Faith though they can compel to an external obedience and though I may blame the Ethnick Princes for compelling men to speak what they thought not yet I absolve not all those that have had the Power in Christian Churches from the same fault For I believe since the time of the first four General Councels there have been more Christians burnt and killed in the Christian Church by Ecclesiastical Authority than by the Heathen Emperors Laws for Religion only without Sedition All that the Bishop does in this Argument is but a heaving at the Kings Supremacy Oh but says he if two Kings interpret a place of Scripture in contrary sences it will follow that both sences are true It does not follow For the interpretation though it be made by just Authority must not therefore always be true If the Doctrine in the one sence be necessary to Salvation then they that hold the other must dye in their sins and be Damned But if the Doctrine in neither sence be necessary to Salvation then all is well except perhaps that they will call one another Atheists and fight about it J. D. All the power vertue use and efficacy which he ascribeth to the Holy Sacraments is to be signs or commemorations As for any sealing or confirming or conferring of Grace he acknowledgeth nothing The same he saith particularly of Baptism Upon which grounds a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace may be called Sacraments as well as Baptism or the holy Eucharist if they be only signs and commemorations of a benefit If he except that Baptism and the Eucharist are of Divine institution But a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace are not He saith truly but nothing to his advantage or purpose seeing he deriveth all the Authority of the Word and Sacraments in respect of Subjects and all our obligation to them from the Authority of the Soveraign Magistrate without which these words repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus are but Counsel no Command And so a Serjeant at Arms his Mace and Baptism proceed both from