Selected quad for the lemma: state_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
state_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,153	5	10.3687	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92774	The diatribē proved to be paradiatribē. Or, A vindication of the judgement of the reformed churches, and Protestant divines, from misrepresentations concerning ordination, and laying on of hands. Together with a brief answer to the pretences of Edmond Chillenden, for the lawfulnesse of preaching without ordination. / By Lazarus Seaman.	Seaman, Lazarus, d. 1675.; Simpson, Sidrach, 1600?-1655.	1647 (1647)	Wing S2174; Thomason E413_9; ESTC R203508	93,768	122

dispensation * Quod si hoc factum fuit in eo qui immediaté fuit vocatus quanto magis id facere decet in vocationibus mediatis quae sunt verba D. Chemnitii par 3. l. de ecclesia c. 4. p 333. apud Gerh. l. com de min. eccl c. 3 s 2 of his Spirit to make more account of Ordination than of Election or at least more then you would have us He saith no more but Separate them for the work they understand his meaning to be Ordain them And therefore when they had fasted and prayed they that is the Prophets and Teachers of Antioch laid their hands on them No man therefore in an ordinary way is to be accounted separate to the work of the Ministery untill with fasting and prayer he hath hands laid on him But of this more hereafter 5. Should I say no more I think I fall not short of a sufficient answer to this Argument Yet because herein you make the fairest shew and seem to have the Lutherans and Cavlinists all on your side and make many particular citations therefore I shall the rather inlarge my self a little in * Nos verò legitimam vocationem nominamus eam quae sit collect is suffragiis totius ecclesiae nullo ordine excluso ita tamen ut certa persona à doctorib●●s ec●lesi● examinata sistatur magistratui popule à qu● publicè audita communibus omnium ordinum suffragiis eligitur vel just is allegat is rationibu● rejicitur Fred. Baldvinus de artic S●●●lcadicis dispur 17. thesi 16. Sequitur secundum Ministrorum requisitum Ordo seu ordinatio quâ person a legitimè electa vocata per alium ecclesiae praesbyterum coram totâ ecclesia Apostolico ritu nimirum manuum impositione aliisque precibus inauguratur hac ceremonia quasi à reliquo caetu separatur sancto ministerio mancipitur Id. thesi 46. Ecclesia constat tribus ordinibus Sacro Politico Plebeio omnes in vocationem alicujus consentire debent si vocatio est legitima Ad sacrum ordinem pertinent Ministri ecclesiae quorum est examinare doctrinam mores vocandi personamque idoneam ecclesiae utilem ligere Idde cas cons l. 4. c. 4. casu 3. of Ordinationhe he speaks thus Citra necessitatis casum si haberi possit nequaquam est omittenda propter evitand● novitatis scandalum Semper e. in ecclesia Apostolica usitata fuit ubi vocati ad ministerium verbi per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 presbyterii in officio suo confirmati sunt cap. 6. casu 1. Presbyterii nomine intelliguntur non tantum Ministri verbi sedetiam illi qui ab ecclesia ad functiones ecclesiasticas constituendas sunt deputati quos Seniores praepositos consiliarios ecclesia adeoque senatum ecclesiasticum appellam●s Atque his quidem presbyter is primas partes in electione vocatione Ministrorum conc●denda● esse nemo sanus ut opin●r negabit AEgidius Hunnius Dan. Arculariu● Jo. Wilke●mannus c. Propositionum com 2. disp 22. these 83 84. vide plura apud Ba●thas M●●●zerum in exegesi Augustian● confessionis ad Ar. 4. num 4 5 6 8. Chemnitium ●● exam conc Trid. De s●cra● ordinis ad can 8. Nic. Hunnium indemons Min. Lutheran● per totum matter of testimony and desire that these few things may be observed 1. The generall opinion of the Lutherans about the regular and orderly Calling of a Minister is That the three Orders Classes or Estates all these words are used by them that is Magistrates Ministers and People by a severall interest of Suffrage are to concur together or apart to the calling of a Minister And herein they make an act of Ministers and Elders as such to be necessary yea the most necessary proper and essentiall thing And this supposed as antecedent they use to say Ordination is the declaration of a Call and compare it with Coronation or the solemnization of Mariage And though they hold Ordination to be but a declaration of the Calling yet they hold it more or lesse necessary and to be the peculiar act of Ministers and Elders Gerhard one of the most eminent among them to justifie the Calling of Ministers in ecclesiis quas vocant evangelicis useth this argument against Bellarmine Vocatio mediata legitima juxta divinam institutionem Apostolorum praxin fieri debet à tota ecclesia omnibus tribus illius ordinibus Nostrorum vocatio fit à tota ecclesia omnibus tribus illius or dinibus Ergo. A lawfull mediate Calling according to Divine institution and the Apostles practice must be made by the whole Church and all the three Orders thereof The call of our Ministers is made by the whole Church and all the three Orders thereof Therefore it is lawfull according to Divine institution and Apostolicall practice The minor saith he is manifest out of the custome used in our Churches * Ad exemplum enim ecclesiae Apostolicae primitivae homines idon●is necessariis donis à Deo instructi ab ordinariis Presbyteris Magistratu constituente Populo suffragante post legitimam vocation in per impositionem manuum preces ordinatium hac ratione cultu● divino consecrantur Loquimur dejure ordinarid reguld in constitionibus nostris ecclesiosticip praescr●p●â ●● Gerh. l. com to 6. deminist ecclesiast c. 3. §. 9. p. 157. Nos ordinationis ritum nequaequam omittendum sed extra necessitatis casumin constitutione ministerii ecclesia lici semper adbidendum esse ditimus Idem quo supra §. 12. So as in their judgements an act of Ministers and Elders is of divine institution in the calling of a Minister Yet a little more cleerly and fully concerning the interest of Ministers about the calling of a Minister * v. Nic. Hun. in Dem. Min. Lutherani p. 199. multis ex causis ministris nau sabem susfragiunt sed primum ac praecip sussragium meriti●simeconceditur 1. Hoc postulat praecep●um Apostolicum 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. 2. Aptitudo cligendi 3. ipsius offici● ratio 4 ratio pro animabus reddenda 5. exemplū Apostoli Act. 1. Act 6. 2 3. 6. piae orthodoxae antiquitatis exempl● The same Gerhard enquiring to whom the right and power of Calling doth belong gives this answer Whereas in the Church there be three distinct states or orders the Ecclesiasticall Politicall and Oeconomicall or Presbyterie Magistrate and People of all which as of so many members the Church consisteth Therefore no state of the Church is simply to be excluded but their parts and offices must be left to every one of them in the mediate calling of Ministers And 1. saith he that Bishops and Presbyters understand by both names one thing must be used when the Ministery is to be commended to any one is manifest ex mandato Apostolico by the Apostolike commandement and the approved examples of Scripture Act. 14. 23. 1

What he sayes of the precise urging of the Ceremony is to be understood of the urging of it upon Popish grounds The foolish questions which he means are those in a Popish Canon de triplici manuum impositione una Ordinatoria altera Confirmatoria tertia Curatoria and such like 5. It 's granted that he sayes expresly that Laying on of hands is not essentialis pars ritus legitimae vocationis and that it is in rerum indifferentium numero retineri omitti potest pro more regionis in qua electus ordinatur This last is more then you have yet acknowledged And if it be to be reteined pro more regionis according to the custome of the Country it must continue in use among us for ought that you have said or can say to prove it Non-essentiall Now thus it follows And with them agrees the Church of Scotland The Engl. pop cer pag. 168 169. Church hath full liberty to use any other decent rite or to use no rite at all beside a publike declaration the Church is not not tyed to use any rite at all by the Word of God in the giving of Ordination Ans What 's the matter that you cite this book so often Are you in love with English Popish Ceremonies or do you take that Book for an Oracle Or do you think the Church of Scotland will abide by every expression to be found therein Or is there no other way to know the sense of the Church of Scotland but by that Book Are you of the same judgement with that Church or any of those Protestant Divines whom you have cited so much as in this one head of Ordination and the rite of it I feare nothing lesse The Church of Scotland is at an agreement within it self and with such eminent Divines abroad as Chemnitius and Danaeus but you and they differ if I be not mis-informed more then a little But 2. to the thing it self Liberty of devising new rites in Ordination is neither s●fe to be granted by way of doctrine nor to be used in practice especially in those Churches which have suffered much under pretence and by the abuse of such liberty and who in other things are strict urgers of examples as binding and that in matter of Rite 3. Those Scriptures which tye the Church to Ordination tye her also to the Rite which we are speaking of Or tell us where you find a Scripture for the one and not for the other That which follows whether intended as a fifth reason or as an excursion only I know not though it be confused yet it sufficiently discovers what you aim at viz. To make those who were Ordained by Bishops no Ministers under pretence that they were Ordained by them as a Superiour Order unto Presbyters and so you slide into another Question Whether the Person ordaining or imposing hands be of the essence of the Call I shall lay down all your own words entire and then answer Thus you pag. 16. Yea suppose it essentiall and then whereas it hath been held against the Brownists that the Ministery in the Church of England is not null though the Bishops laid on their hands who should not have had a finger in it because an extrinsecall Circumstance failing or being corrupted a thing ceases not to be yet if it be made Essentiall what shall be said Seeing both in the Bishops intention in ordaining and in the profession of the Party ordained hands were laid on him not as a Presbyter formally but as one of a superior Order to Elders and for such an Order there is no Divine institution As therefore that Baptisme must be repeated which was administred by a person not lawfully called to the ministration of it if the Person ministring be essentiall to Baptisme so must that person be Ordained again who had hands laid on by a Bishop as a Bishop if Laying on of hands be essentiall to the Ministery Whatsoever wants its Essentials is not though it seems to be Ans Let the Questions be propounded distinctly which are here involv'd and then it will be easier for any one to judge 1. What will follow concerning the Ministery in the Church of England if Laying on of hands be essentiall I answer That the Ministers of England who have Hands laid on them have that which is essentiall to their Calling Who can imagine otherwise upon the supposition 2. But seeing Ministers in England were Ordained by Bishops as a superiour Order to Elders and no such Order is of Gods appointing nor ought to be is not their Calling null in that respect Ans No i● is not 1. Because neither Church nor State did ever declare Bishops to be a superiour Order though some of them for they were but some made such a claim The State hath often declared against it not only by books approved by them as in the dayes of Henry the 8. but by severall acts of Parliament in King Edwards time and since 2. Because Bishops only and alone were never authorised to lay on hands excluding other Pr●sbyters but together with them 3. Bishops were Elders first before they came to be Bishops and of Elders were made Bishops in way of accumulation not in way of privation Their error that they thought themselves a superiour Order above Presbyters could not make them no Presbyters 4. All Ordinations are counted valid which are performed in a setled Church with the consent of Magistrate Ministers and People whether the Ordainers be Bishop Superintendent or a Presbyterie This principle is maintained both by the Lutherans and Calvinists as you use to distinguish For the Lutherans I refer you to Hen. Ekhardus in opusculo de Ordine Ecclesiastico pag. 5● and to Nicolaus Hunnius Demonst Min. Lutherani pag. 294. For others Zanchy sayes quo supra Nihil refert sive ab omnibus praesentibus Ministris sive ab uno omnium nomine imponantur manus It matters not whether hands be laid on by all the Ministers who are present or by one in the name of the rest So he And I think it might be added nor how many be present the Quorum is but of prudentiall determination Pareus speaks more largely * Comment ad Rom. 10. 15. The lawfull Calling of the Church is that which is instituted in every Church by publike authority for Orders sake unto edification Neque enim uniformis est omnium ubique quoad circumstantias externas sed libertati Ecclesiae relicta 5. To speak my own judgement When sin cleaves to the manner of Calling through the generall error or corruption of all sorts who are concerned in it though such a Calling cannot be said to be legitima or legi proxima but is displeasing to God and null in some sense as unworthy receiving of the Sacrament is counted no receiving 1 Cor. 11. 20. and sinfull fasting no fasting Zach. 7. 5. yet it is not otherwise to be invalidated here below than by doctrinall censure and

Ordination consisteth in the appointing of such for the holy Ministry by persons in office Ruth Due right of Presbyteries p. 186. ● dist have first chosen will not easily be proved * It is not of the substance of the calling to bee chosen by voices of the people Dr. Fulke on Act. 14. 23. 4. Whereas you speak of Ordination commonly so called you name neither Church nor Divine who state it as you do here and I think you can name none Be it an act of Ministers or Elders after Examination and Election there must be something added to make it a definition or description In stead of the quid rei you give us only the qu●●d● If your proofs have no more strength then your exp●●ation hath clearnesse and fulnesse you may still conceale your ●a●e and that will be your best advantage In that sence Ordination is not essentiall to the Calling of Minister Ans 1. This implies there is a Scripture-sense wherein Ordination is essentiall to the Calling of a Minister or else you oppose it in all sences and then what needs those words in that sence If there be a sence wherein you with the Reformed Churches and Protestant Divines do grant it why is that concealed 2. If your Thesis had been intirely expressed it would run thus Ordination as it is commonly taken for an act of Ministers or Elders after Examination and Election is not essentiall to the calling of a Minister Put then what 's the meaning of it That no act of Ministers and Elders about the calling of a Minister is essentiall thereunto or none but Examination and Election I suppose it is not your sence that Examination and Election by Ministers or Elders is essentiall to the calling of a Minister and tha● these together are commonly called Ordination That no act of Ministers or Elders whatsoever is essentiall to a Ministers calling will not be found to be the judgement of the Reformed Churches and Protestant Divines and that without limitation and restriction which Formadat esse Materia est part quid ditatis yet in your Title you pretend unto 3. The word essentiall may prove a blind to some readers being a term of art which learned ones agree not about That forme gives being and yet matter is part of the quiddity as also Quod essentiāam rei non constituit sine eo essentia rei salva esse potest Propria adjuncta non constituunt essentirei Ergo sine iis essentia rei salva esse potest ●x consequenti n●n debent vocari essentialia Heiz Nullus Philosophorum in ●oto orbe terrar●i dabit tibi Majorem Rod. Goclen ad Pisc●● Piscator in Thesibus p. 604. the distinction of essentiall into 1. antecedent 2. constituent and 3. consequent is common in the Schooles yet in a learned company I have heard it to be by one of them little lesse then hissed at One Heizo propounding this argument against Piscator The essence of a thing may be without that which doth not constitute it Proper adjuncts do not constitute the essence Therefore the essence may be without them and consequently they are not to be called essentiall Rodolphus Goclenius Professor at Marpurg answers for Pisc No Philosopher in all the world will grant the Major So as if Ordination were not constitutive yet if it did necessarily follow upon that act which doth as suppose Election by Ministers or Elders with the consent of the Church it might be called essentiall What think you of this Whether Ordination be not at ' * Zanc. makes Election and Ordination parts of Calling So Ames If parts then essential or integrall least an integrall part of a Ministers calling and whether some integrall parts be not essentiall to an integrall whole and Ordination such a part of Calling 4. In plain words I suppose this to be your meaning No man who desires to be a Minister needs be Ordained and if he be he is not thereby made a Minister And this you assert without any distinction of time or state of the Church or of Calling whether it be mediate or immediate ordinary extraordinary or mixt You might as well say Mariage as an act of Ministers or Magistrates after the consent of the parties is not essentiall to the calling of man and wife none need to be so married and if they be they are not thereby made man and wife Wise men would soon perceive that your word essentiall would not be a sufficient salvo against the danger of such a position families are likely to be destroyed by it notwithstanding He that sayes no act of Ministers or Elders is essentiall to a Ministers call will say as much with fairer pretence of Magistrates and then either nothing is essentiall or something to be done by the people or something immediately on Gods part what followes upon this but either Erastianisme that there is no Church-power or Order Brownisme that all power is in the body of the people or Enthusiasme that every man is to act in sacris as he is led by inspiration without respect to politie If this be your judgement yet methinks it sounds not like the judgement of the Reformed Churches and Protestant Divines Papists use to impose such a sence upon them and they use to disclaim it Yet I do not wonder that you are thus bold with them seeing you begin with First Second and Third c. which must be understood either of Scripture or Reason or both as if right reason and that Spirit which leadeth into all truth were fully on your side in this cause whereas I fear they are not 5. As to your position in your own terms Ordination is not essentiall to the calling of a Minister the Reader who is to judge betwixt us both must observe this mysterie Ordination is taken two wayes in the Reformed Churches among Protestant Divines 1. First and most frequ●ntly for the rite of imposing hands which is the last act whereby a Ministers calling is consummated This because they call it a rite they do not count essentiall that is alw●yes and in all cases absolutely necessary especially as appropriated unto Bishops distinct from Presbyters jure divino but they hold it to be lawfull and more or lesse necessary in a setled and well-ordered Church 2. Ordination signifies that act wherein and whereby Church-governours do in the name and stead of Christ set apart one to be a Minister and by such separation make him one with Prayer Fasting and either with or without Imposition of hands Here they distinguish of the time and state of the Church and though in my observation the terme essentiall be used sparingly yet the necessity of this thing in the substance of it in a mediate calling and regular state of the Church is every where asserted * Nemo ad ordinariam in Ecclesia functionem admitti debeat nisi legitime vocatus eoque legitime electus ordinatus Zanch. in