Selected quad for the lemma: state_n
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A48815
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A conference between two Protestants and a papist, occasion'd by the late seasonable discourse
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Lloyd, William, 1627-1717.
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1673
(1673)
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Wing L2675; ESTC R23405
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26,381
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34
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in his necessities help a Legat of the Apostolic See both going and coming I will endeavour to preserve defend increase and promote the Rights Honours Privileges and Authority of the H. Rom. Church our Lord the Pope and his aforesaid Successors I will not communicate in counsel deed or treaty in which any thing sinister and prejudicial to their Person Right Honour State and Power shall be design'd against our said Lord by the Rom. Church And if I shall know any such thing to be treated or endeavoured I will hinder it to my power and as soon as ever I can will acquaint our said 〈◊〉 therewith or some body else by whom it may come to his knowledge I will 〈◊〉 self observe and cause to be observ'd by others the Rules of the H. Fathers the Decrees Ordinances or Dispositions Reservations Provisions and Apostolical commands I will to my power prosecute and impugn Hereticks Schismaticks and Rebels to our said Lord and his said Successors If I be call'd to a Synod I will come unless I be hindred by a canonical impediment Every three years I will personally visit the shrines of the Apostles and render account to our Lord and his Successors aforesaid of my whole pastoral Office and of all things any way belonging to the state of my Church the discipline of the Clergy and People and the health of Souls entrusted to my charge and on the other side will humbly receive and most diligently perform the Apostolical commands If I be detained by a lawful impediment I will fulfill all aforesaid by a special Messenger having a special Mandate to that purpose chosen from the bosom of my Chapter or some other Ecclesiastical Dignitary or otherwise having some Ecclesiastical Personage or in default of such by some Priest of my Diocess and if there be none of my Clergy by some other Priest Secular or Regular of approved virtue Religion fully instructed in all matters aforesaid And of such impediment I will make lawfull proof to be sent by my said Messenger to the Cardinal presiding proponertâ—m in the Congregation of the Sacred Council I will not sell nor give nor pawn nor mortgage anew infeudabo nor alienate in any manner the Possessions belonging to my Table even with the consent of the Chapter of my Church without consulting the Bishop of Rome And if I do proceed to any alienation I consent â—o ipso to incur the penalties contain'd in a certain Constitution set forth of this matter So help me God and these H. Ghospels of God F. Well Sir what say you to it P. I say I would not take it for the best Bishoprick in Christendom As far as I can judg it is direct Praeâ—â—nire and perhaps worse But pray Sir where did you find it Those Princes who are of the Popes communion are careful enough of their Authority It seems impossible they should be ignorant of it and incredible they shou'd permit their Subjects to take it I cannot believe it is in use wherever you found it F. I have never been present at the consecration of any of your Bishops to say of my own knowledg that it is taken But I know it is prescribed in your Pontifical to be taken And I suppose your Bishops are consecrated according to the prescriptions of your Pontifical P. Really Sir you tell me news and such as I dare answer there is not on one at least Lay Catholick in ten thousand that ever heard of it I will not question the truth of what you â—ay because I do not mistrust you and besides 't is an easie matter when I can meet with a Pontifical to see what is there But I must still remain of my former opinion that 't is not generally in use though perhaps it may be in the Popes own territories The Authority of the Pontifical is no proof as to that point For other countreys have their Pontificals and Liturgies of their own framing and that may be in the Roman Pontifical which perhaps is no where else That 't is of no ancient standing is clear by the Oath it self which mentions the Congregation of the Sacred Council and every body knows that that Congregation was erected since the Council of Trent and every body knows too thaâ— since that time Popes have not had that credit in the world that they could impose Oaths upon the Subjects of other Princes without the consent of those Princes For England in particular besides the Statutes beforementioned which in my opinion quash it sufficiently there is mention in Sir Ed Cook in his 3 book of Institutes tit Praemuniâ—e of a renunciation used even from the times of Ed. 1. and Ed. 2 in these words I renounce all the words comprised in the Popes Bull to me made of the Bishoprick of A which â—e contrary or prejudicial to the King our Soveraign Lord and to his crown And of that I put my self humbly in his Grace praying to have restitution of the temporalities of my Church This renunciation must needs be a great deal more ancient than this Oath and since our Catholick Ancestors thought fit to renounce all words inserted in Bulls prejudicial though to a less degree than this Oath However it be 't is a clear case that being made by the Pope none can be more obliged to take it than to receive his other Decrees which as we have discourst already no Nation is oblig'd to do but by free consent as far as they find them beneficial to themselves Wherefore as I said before allow us Ecclesiastical Ministers of whose fidelity you may be assured and we will be careful enough you may be sure not to run rashly and caâ—slesly into Praemunires or if we do the Pope himself cannot blame you if you severely execute those Laws which have been made even by Catholicks But if you force us to take them upon such terms as we can get them we are blameless if things happen which we cannot avoid F. Why but you cannot avoid this For let us allow you what liberty we will the Pope never make you Bishops on other terms and you believe Bishops cannot be made but by him or authority derived from him P. I have already told you I do not believe Bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in his own territories but I am very certain they need not be any where and am farther very certain that in England they should not be if you would allow us the liberty of acting in the concerns of Religion openly and without such fear of the Laws that many times we do we know not what our selves Believe me the Pope is too wise to give occasion to examin whether Bâ—shops may not be made without his intervening For 't is well known that Bishops were made and governed the Church a long time and he never medled in the business And at this day there are who will by no means use the ordinary stile Dei Aposholica
consider the many inconveniences which the Seasonable Discourse has well observed I believe we cannot be too follicitous to keep it out Pray what think you P. I think 't is strange you should be so little acquainted with men who live amongst you and with whom you converse every day The understanding part of those whom you call Papists have peradventure as little inclination to Popery as your selves and would joyn heartily with you if there were occasion to keep it out especially if they were indulged such a proportion of mercy as might make them live with comfort For while men live uneasily I cannot say but they may have some inclinations to be at ease F. How Papists keep out Popery you may as soon persuade me that Fire will keep out Heat P. I know not what credit I have to persuade you but I tell you nothing but what I certainly know Pray cast your eye a while on our Neighbors the Hollanders no Fools in matters of Government They make a shift to allarm us with fears of Popery which being an odious thing they think proper to cause jealousie among us and serve their ends but their actions manifest that they believe nothing less They have a greater number of Papists than we have They are a considerable part of their Countrey equal if not superior to any one party Whatever the Hollanders say to amuze us they are so far from being disquieted with fears of Popery themselves that they take the very Priests into the protection of the Magistrate and give the rest a comfortable indulgence not out of carelessness but because they are secure For while the Papists have no pinching dissatisfactions to make them wish to change they see well enough that they will not think of embroiling things and upon uncertain hopes of a condition which cannot be much happier than the present hazard to make themselves very unhappy by losing the present So that till the Papists can convert the whole Nation one by one the States see their Religion will never be in other terms than it is and that is so unlikely that she never has the least suspicion of it For this desire to make Proselytes which is common to all as well â—s Papists gains and loses particulars but advances little in the general Experience shews the progres of either side is inconsiderable and the benefit to the State very much The Papists upon many occasions having been found as faithful to the State as any of their fellow Subjects Even at this time while they have War with a powerful Enemy of that Religion and who has lodg'd a powerful Army in the bowels of their Countrey they find the Papists as fast to the interest of the State as the best and as earnest opposers of a Forreign Power though likely to introduce their Religion if it should prevail F. I am apt to believe that ease might hinder you from desiring change for men therefore change because they are uneasie But 't is still incredible to me that you should in earnest ever resist Popery 'T is a Forregn Enemy not Popery which the Holland Papists oppose P. But that Forreign Enemy if he were suffered to come in wouâ—d bring Popery along with him But let us undeâ—stand one another I conceive you mean by Popery what the word signâ—fiâ—s a blind addiction to the Pope and what this Discourser meant viz. something which is attended with those inconveniences he mentions And I can assure you those among us that understand things and know how to distinguish Religion from Abuse I will not undertake for every extravagant Zealot would be as uâ—willing to admit them as your selves Do you think us so senseleâ—s as to be willing to forfeit our birth rights to be deprived of the bâ—nefit of our Native Laws to submit to the Jurisdiction of Forreign Courts and at the summons of every crafty wrangler to run a thousand miles a pettifogging do you think those among us who are possest of Abby-lands whereof many are still in the hands of Pâ—pists and make if not all yet many times a great part of their Estate would easily resign them and beggar themselves and Posterity Do you think us unconcern'd in the wealth of the Nation or forward with an Indian simplicity to barter gold for trifles F. But how could you help it P. Help what we are troubled with no such grievances nor ever mean to be F. God-a-mercie Reformation which has remov'd those burthens P. The Statutes before mentioned eased as in part and Hen. the 8. no great friend to the â—eformation did the rest and more perhaps than were it to do again your selves would do But whatever was the cause whether Reformation or any thing else we are not subject unto those inconveniences now and I believe shall never subject our selves to them by our good wills F. Your Doctrines would subject you to them in spite of your teeth while you believe of the Pope as you do there is no remedy but you must let him act as he does While you acknowledg him Head of the Uuniversal Church you must grant him power to make Laws for the Universal Church and when he makes them you must obey them Therefore he may cross and weaken the Laws of any particular Nation and remove proceedings to his own Court as he pleaseth You must either absolutly renounce him or enslave your Country for this unavoidably follows from what you believe P. I thought I had believed my share of the Pope but I am sure I believe no such matter and â—m sure my Catholick Ancestors believed as little as 〈◊〉 No remedy say you Does the Statute of Praemunire beâ—ore mentioned siâ—â—â—fie nothing noâ— the severe penalties elswhere enacted against all of what condition soever which shall draw any out any out of the Realm in plea whereof the cognizâ—nce belongeth to the Kings Court or whereof judgments be given in the Kings Court or which do sue in any other Court to defeat or impeach the judgment given in the Kings Court Behold how much we think our selves obliged to forreign jurisdiction and how forward we are to enslave our Country This is no place to dispute the Popes Authority Controversie does as ill in a Coffe hâ—use as Pollicy But it seems nâ— hard matter to distinguish Primacy from Omnipotency and t is easie to see he may be Head and yet cannot force Laws on particular places without their consent Hen. 8th was by Statute declared Head of the Church of England That Tiâ—le hath been since châ—nged into Supream Governour which in my opinion amounts to the same However neither the one nor the other enables our â—â—â—ngs to make Laws without the consent of their Subjects If you look into Countrys of the Popes Communion I do not believe that you will find any one where they think themselves obliged by any Law made at Rome purely by virtue of that Authority They allways examine it themselves and if they think