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state_n authority_n church_n power_n 4,040 5 5.1405 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A38090 Antapologia, or, A full answer to the Apologeticall narration of Mr. Goodwin, Mr. Nye, Mr. Sympson, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Bridge, members of the Assembly of Divines wherein is handled many of the controversies of these times, viz. ... : humbly also submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament / by Thomas Edwards ... Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647. 1644 (1644) Wing E223; ESTC R1672 272,405 322

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to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o presbyterian_o
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such_o difficult_a ecclesiastical_a cause_n in_o heresy_n schism_n scandal_n etc._n etc._n which_o fall_v out_o among_o the_o minister_n of_o church_n and_o between_o church_n themselves_o again_o if_o you_o understand_v the_o magistrate_n indefinite_o and_o absolute_o any_o magistrate_n though_o heathen_a popish_a arrian_n as_o mr_n robinson_n do_v in_o his_o apology_n and_o i_o find_v it_o in_o your_o manuscript_n and_o principle_n that_o you_o take_v it_o so_o judge_v then_o in_o yourselves_o if_o the_o church_n have_v not_o remedy_n among_o themselves_o how_o fit_a be_v they_o who_o understand_v not_o christian_a religion_n nor_o the_o doctrine_n according_a to_o godliness_n to_o judge_v of_o the_o great_a difference_n between_o church_n and_o to_o assist_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o church_n if_o the_o apostle_n paul_n reprove_v the_o corinthian_n so_o in_o 1_o cor._n 6_o 1_o 2_o 3_o 4_o 5_o 6_o 7._o for_o cariy_a matter_n from_o the_o church_n even_o the_o small_a matter_n the_o thing_n that_o pertain_v to_o this_o life_n unto_o unbeliever_n how_o will_v he_o blame_v the_o carry_n of_o thing_n spiritual_a and_o ecclesiastical_a unto_o heathen_a from_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n or_o do_v you_o understand_v that_o there_o shall_v be_v court_n of_o civil_a judicature_n to_o appeal_v unto_o etc._n etc._n then_o there_o must_v be_v certain_a law_n and_o rule_n agree_v upon_o as_o for_o particular_a church_n so_o between_o the_o church_n according_a to_o which_o they_o must_v proceed_v to_o back_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n and_o protestation_n etc._n etc._n which_o yet_o you_o practise_v not_o now_o the_o many_o inconvenience_n that_o will_v come_v of_o such_o court_v you_o may_v easy_o foresee_v so_o that_o this_o be_v not_o like_a to_o be_v a_o effectual_a remedy_n 6._o what_o shall_v be_v do_v in_o case_n there_o be_v no_o magistrate_n at_o all_o to_o take_v any_o notice_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n and_o church_n government_n but_o leave_v church_n to_o themselves_o in_o that_o as_o it_o be_v with_o you_o in_o holland_n there_o be_v no_o magistrate_n meddle_v with_o the_o government_n and_o order_n of_o your_o church_n nor_o none_o to_o have_v recourse_n unto_o or_o to_o back_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n you_o be_v in_o a_o place_n and_o state_n where_o no_o outward_a violence_n or_o any_o other_o external_a authority_n either_o civil_a or_o ecclesiastical_a will_v have_v enforce_v you_o what_o shall_v in_o this_o case_n supply_v the_o defect_n of_o excommunication_n and_o of_o a_o ecclesiastical_a authoritative_a power_n have_v not_o the_o wisdom_n of_o christ_n provide_v remedy_n in_o the_o church_n for_o all_o the_o internal_a necessity_n of_o the_o church_n and_o constitute_v it_o a_o perfect_a body_n within_o itself_o 7._o whether_o can_v it_o be_v rational_o and_o probable_o think_v that_o in_o a_o ordinary_a way_n the_o have_v recourse_n unto_o the_o magistrate_n though_o orthodox_n and_o the_o submit_v to_o his_o particular_a cognizance_n and_o examination_n of_o such_o cause_n with_o his_o back_n the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n in_o ecclesiastical_a cause_n in_o case_n of_o sin_n error_n difference_n that_o arise_v in_o church_n shall_v be_v as_o effectual_a and_o sufficient_a a_o remedy_n as_o the_o way_n of_o class_n and_o synod_n and_o that_o the_o magistrate_n interpose_v their_o authority_n and_o power_n of_o another_o nature_n will_v be_v as_o good_a as_o the_o authoritative_a presbyterial_a government_n in_o all_o the_o subordination_n and_o proceed_n of_o it_o now_o that_o it_o be_v not_o probable_a it_o shall_v be_v or_o that_o it_o shall_v serve_v in_o stead_n of_o synod_n and_o class_n take_v these_o probable_a and_o rational_a ground_n 1._o all_o wanton_a wit_n and_o erroneous_a spirit_n all_o your_o sectary_n and_o novelist_n be_v rather_o for_o this_o way_n then_o for_o synod_n and_o class_n though_o most_o of_o they_o will_v have_v neither_o to_o meddle_v at_o all_o in_o matter_n of_o religion_n as_o the_o socinian_o anabaptist_n etc._n etc._n thus_o the_o arminian_n be_v against_o class_n and_o synod_n and_o all_o for_o the_o power_n of_o magistrate_n and_o it_o be_v their_o chief_a engine_n by_o which_o in_o those_o sad_a day_n of_o the_o netherlands_o they_o increase_v their_o party_n and_o come_v to_o such_o a_o height_n sectary_n hope_v that_o if_o they_o can_v decline_v the_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n they_o shall_v wat_fw-mi by_o flattery_n and_o what_o by_o delay_n through_o other_o great_a business_n of_o state_n and_o what_o by_o sophism_n and_o fallacy_n and_o what_o from_o principle_n of_o policy_n in_o many_o statesman_n and_o what_o by_o friend_n etc._n etc._n effect_n that_o which_o they_o have_v no_o hope_n at_o all_o by_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n they_o know_v the_o presbytery_n and_o synod_n be_v able_a to_o discover_v their_o fallacy_n answer_v their_o argument_n will_v mind_v those_o business_n whole_o be_v not_o to_o be_v wrought_v upon_o by_o state_n principle_n etc._n etc._n now_o if_o in_o experience_n and_o reason_n this_o way_n be_v as_o powerful_a to_o reduce_v a_o church_n or_o church_n from_o schism_n and_o heresy_n they_o will_v never_o be_v so_o much_o for_o this_o way_n rather_o than_o presbytery_n 2._o natural_a reason_n dictate_v that_o they_o be_v best_a able_a and_o fit_a to_o judge_v and_o resolve_v of_o thing_n who_o do_v above_o other_o give_v themselves_o to_o the_o study_n and_o profession_n of_o those_o thing_n as_o physician_n can_v best_o judge_v of_o wholesome_a meat_n and_o disease_n and_o lawyer_n of_o the_o law_n and_o difference_n arise_v in_o they_o a_o counsel_n of_o war_n of_o difficult_a case_n and_o point_n in_o war_n and_o therefore_o in_o thing_n that_o belong_v to_o the_o spiritual_a good_a of_o the_o soul_n and_o the_o church_n the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n be_v most_o likely_a to_o resolve_v and_o to_o remedy_v thing_n can_v it_o ordinary_o be_v expect_v that_o the_o magistrate_n shall_v in_o matter_n of_o doctrine_n and_o opinion_n in_o matter_n of_o schism_n and_o in_o matter_n of_o worthiness_n and_o ability_n of_o minister_n and_o in_o many_o case_n that_o arise_v be_v able_a to_o judge_v and_o determine_v matter_n as_o the_o minister_n and_o pastor_n of_o the_o church_n 3._o those_o who_o have_v most_o time_n and_o leisure_n to_o attend_v a_o work_n and_o business_n to_o sift_v into_o it_o to_o hear_v all_o that_o can_v be_v say_v and_o can_v mind_v it_o they_o be_v able_a and_o understand_a be_v likely_a to_o determine_v best_a and_o bring_v thing_n to_o a_o good_a end_n we_o see_v in_o experience_n that_o able_a and_o honest_a man_n through_o multitude_n of_o business_n delay_v long_o slubber_v over_o business_n and_o can_v do_v thing_n so_o effectual_o as_o they_o ought_v and_o seldom_o prove_v good_a arbitratour_n in_o difficult_a intricate_a case_n now_o magistrate_n through_o many_o great_a and_o necessary_a business_n of_o state_n have_v large_a dominion_n can_v so_o well_o attend_v as_o the_o class_n and_o synod_n to_o hear_v and_o examine_v all_o the_o difference_n scandal_n schism_n etc._n etc._n that_o do_v and_o may_v arise_v both_o in_o church_n and_o between_o church_n especial_o as_o will_v fall_v out_o in_o the_o independent_a way_n and_o particular_o in_o this_o way_n of_o submission_n non-communion_n and_o mutual_a protestation_n but_o matter_n will_v be_v delay_v and_o neglect_v or_o escape_v whole_o or_o be_v huddle_v up_o 4._o to_o these_o i_o may_v add_v as_o follow_v that_o the_o magistrate_n through_o his_o just_a greatness_n will_v not_o know_v the_o spirit_n and_o disposition_n of_o minister_n &_o people_n nor_o of_o other_o matter_n so_o well_o as_o the_o minister_n who_o live_v among_o they_o and_o converse_v with_o one_o another_o frequent_o neither_o will_v there_o be_v that_o easiness_n of_o access_n to_o the_o magistrate_n and_o great_a person_n as_o
put_v it_o in_o every_o city_n which_o we_o affirm_v not_o nor_o need_v not_o to_o carry_v the_o cause_n against_o you_o for_o if_o we_o can_v prove_v it_o in_o some_o city_n or_o in_o any_o city_n that_o the_o number_n of_o convert_v do_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n than_o we_o prove_v the_o scripture_n hold_v out_o a_o presbyterial_a classical_a church_n and_o overthrow_v your_o grand_a principle_n about_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o reader_n observe_v the_o fallacy_n of_o these_o apologist_n how_o in_o the_o manner_n of_o their_o expression_n and_o as_o they_o propound_v it_o though_o the_o thing_n may_v be_v true_a yet_o they_o alter_v quite_o the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n for_o though_o in_o every_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v you_o can_v not_o imagine_v the_o number_n of_o convert_v shall_v be_v so_o great_a nor_o we_o neither_o yet_o in_o some_o city_n you_o may_v have_v well_o imagine_v it_o as_o in_o jerusalem_n and_o rome_n but_o brethren_n why_o will_v you_o who_o be_v scholar_n and_o without_o question_n weigh_v well_o all_o your_o word_n and_o manner_n of_o expression_n have_v so_o many_o head_n in_o the_o frame_n this_o apology_n deal_v thus_o with_o the_o reader_n in_o a_o narration_n speak_v true_o though_o you_o do_v not_o imagine_v the_o number_n of_o convert_v be_v so_o many_o in_o every_o city_n yet_o do_v not_o you_o imagine_v the_o number_n may_v be_v so_o great_a in_o some_o city_n as_o in_o jerusalem_n and_o if_o still_o you_o will_v not_o imagine_v it_o for_o the_o help_a of_o your_o imagination_n consider_v whether_o you_o have_v not_o more_o reason_n if_o not_o infallible_a and_o necessary_a yet_o probable_a and_o rational_a to_o imagine_v the_o church_n of_o hi●…rusalem_n consist_v of_o so_o many_o thousand_o of_o people_n and_o have_v so_o many_o minister_n to_o preach_v unto_o they_o as_o 12._o apostle_n beside_o the_o seventy_o disciple_n and_o they_o meeting_n in_o so_o many_o distinct_a house_n and_o not_o have_v the_o power_n and_o command_v of_o any_o public_a large_a place_n or_o liberty_n through_o those_o time_n to_o fit_v it_o for_o such_o multitude_n to_o hear_v the_o word_n join_v in_o prayer_n and_o sacrament_n shall_v have_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n rather_o than_o to_o imagine_v all_o those_o shall_v make_v but_o one_o stand_a congregation_n to_o meet_v in_o one_o place_n and_o room_n 2._o it_o be_v state_v otherwise_o carry_v high_a than_o need_n be_v grant_v and_o that_o in_o all_o your_o expression_n of_o it_o for_o the_o scripture_n may_v hold_v forth_o a_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n for_o government_n and_o yet_o not_o be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n it_o may_v be_v allow_v and_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n have_v a_o jus_o divinum_fw-la permissivum_fw-la upon_o general_a rule_n of_o the_o word_n and_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n and_o of_o prudence_n yea_o and_o may_v have_v some_o example_n of_o it_o and_o yet_o not_o amount_v to_o a_o divine_a institution_n many_o who_o hold_v the_o thing_n will_v not_o in_o those_o phrase_n own_o it_o 2._o these_o elder_n of_o many_o congregation_n may_v have_v a_o power_n of_o government_n in_o common_a over_o all_o and_o yet_o not_o be_v the_o first_o seat_n of_o church-power_n for_o it_o be_v not_o deny_v but_o some_o particular_a congregation_n have_v a_o competent_a number_n of_o presbyter_n both_o have_v and_o may_v exercise_v church-power_n before_o any_o such_o combination_n be_v or_o can_v be_v 3._o these_o elder_n combine_v may_v have_v church-power_n to_o rule_v these_o congregation_n so_o combine_v and_o yet_o not_o have_v a_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church-power_n but_o a_o power_n liable_a to_o appeal_n unto_o synod_n and_o general_a assembly_n the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o we_o be_v whether_o class_n or_o presbytery_n have_v power_n in_o ecclesiastical_a matter_n as_o ordination_n excommunication_n etc._n etc._n within_o the_o number_n of_o congregation_n so_o combine_v or_o may_v by_o warrant_n from_o the_o word_n exercise_v any_o power_n in_o church_n matter_n but_o in_o their_o own_o particular_a congregation_n the_o question_n be_v not_o whether_o it_o be_v the_o institution_n of_o christ_n or_o his_o apostle_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church_n power_n as_o you_o state_n it_o you_o strange_o mistate_v the_o question_n to_o lay_v it_o down_o in_o these_o word_n that_o the_o combination_n of_o the_o elder_n of_o many_o church_n shall_v be_v the_o first_o seat_n of_o church-power_n over_o each_o congregation_n so_o combine_v whereas_o the_o opinion_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n be_v quite_o contrary_a not_o hold_v class_n and_o synod_n to_o be_v the_o first_o subject_n of_o church-power_n from_o whence_o it_o be_v consequent_o derive_v and_o confer_v upon_o particular_a church_n but_o that_o particular_a congregation_n have_v power_n in_o themselves_o and_o among_o themselves_o equal_a power_n do_v in_o class_n and_o synod_n confer_v and_o execute_v in_o common_a their_o own_o power_n even_o as_o those_o who_o be_v colleague_n and_o equal_a member_n of_o some_o political_a society_n 4._o the_o power_n which_o particular_a officer_n and_o presbyter_n of_o combine_a congregation_n may_v have_v over_o particular_a member_n of_o those_o church_n they_o teach_v not_o ordinary_o do_v not_o amount_v to_o the_o challenge_v and_o assume_v a_o authority_n over_o those_o church_n they_o feed_v and_o teach_v not_o your_o expression_n be_v a_o mistake_n it_o be_v not_o a_o assume_v a_o power_n and_o authority_n by_o some_o over_o other_o church_n but_o it_o be_v a_o power_n of_o the_o whole_a and_o of_o themselves_o too_o even_o those_o particular_a church_n in_o their_o officer_n over_o particular_a member_n as_o in_o the_o parliament_n no_o member_n have_v power_n over_o another_o more_o than_o another_o over_o he_o but_o the_o whole_n have_v power_n over_o all_o the_o particular_n for_o the_o clear_n of_o which_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n speak_v full_o in_o their_o reformation_n of_o church_n government_n in_o scotland_n clear_v page_n 24_o 25._o and_o for_o the_o close_a of_o this_o second_o head_n wherein_o you_o stand_v upon_o what_o you_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o but_o disallow_v if_o you_o will_v impartial_o consider_v that_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o epistle_n do_v as_o well_o hold_v out_o ground_n yea_o and_o more_o indubitable_a as_o i_o shall_v make_v evident_a in_o a_o particular_a tractate_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o first_o particular_a church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n and_o distinct_a meet_v place_n then_o of_o one_o only_a congregation_n you_o will_v acknowledge_v that_o where_o there_o be_v many_o presbyter_n to_o feed_v and_o rule_v and_o many_o more_o christian_n live_v in_o a_o vicinity_n then_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n it_o be_v not_o the_o most_o safe_a and_o allow_a way_n to_o retain_v the_o government_n of_o each_o congregation_n thus_o within_o themselves_o neither_o that_o it_o be_v a_o additament_n in_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o practice_v so_o but_o rather_o a_o additament_n on_o their_o part_n who_o live_v in_o a_o city_n where_o the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o to_o make_v many_o meet_v place_n there_o to_o make_v these_o place_n and_o person_n such_o distinct_a church_n as_o to_o manage_v all_o thing_n each_o one_o within_o themselves_o and_o not_o to_o grow_v into_o one_o for_o government_n and_o i_o be_o so_o far_o verse_v in_o these_o controversy_n that_o i_o challenge_v you_o five_o to_o give_v i_o a_o example_n of_o any_o 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as_o they_o see_v just_a ground_n the_o controversy_n be_v at_o a_o end_n 4._o the_o corporation_n that_o be_v those_o in_o place_n and_o power_n if_o they_o proceed_v unjust_o be_v accountable_a to_o the_o state_n they_o live_v in_o that_o be_v to_o a_o high_a civil_a power_n and_o adjudge_v themselves_o in_o case_n of_o wrong_n condemn_v the_o innocent_a suffer_v delinquent_n to_o escape_n but_o your_o corporation_n of_o particular_a congregation_n even_o in_o case_n of_o real_a administration_n be_v against_o all_o judge_a and_o all_o ecclesiastical_a authoritative_a power_n out_o of_o your_o own_o congregation_n to_o the_o five_o reason_n hint_v by_o you_o to_o strengthen_v your_o practice_n that_o it_o be_v safe_a and_o allow_v and_o the_o reform_a church_n more_o questionable_a namely_o appeal_n to_o they_o who_o have_v read_v book_n whether_o much_o have_v be_v write_v with_o strength_n set_o and_o direct_o to_o prove_v that_o government_n but_o rather_o to_o overthrow_v 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to_o
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but_o to_o suspend_v their_o judgement_n about_o the_o truth_n as_o i_o be_o confident_a it_o do_v not_o than_o you_o will_v have_v the_o advantage_n of_o authority_n to_o sway_v the_o assembly_n rather_o to_o your_o side_n then_o against_o you_o 4._o for_o the_o four_o disadvantage_n the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n this_o be_v a_o dangerous_a insinuation_n against_o the_o assembly_n yea_o and_o the_o parliament_n too_o without_o who_o nothing_o the_o assemby_n do_v can_v be_v of_o any_o validity_n as_o if_o they_o will_v be_v carry_v with_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n rather_o than_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o will_v bend_v the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n now_o let_v i_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o the_o public_a interest_n of_o this_o kingdom_n at_o this_o time_n will_v stand_v and_o agree_v with_o the_o word_n of_o god_n or_o it_o will_v not_o if_o it_o will_v stand_v than_o not_o only_o the_o assembly_n but_o you_o also_o shall_v be_v for_o that_o interest_n account_v the_o public_a interest_n so_o suit_v to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n a_o advantage_n but_o if_o it_o will_v not_o stand_v with_o the_o word_n but_o that_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n run_v one_o way_n and_o god_n word_n another_o way_n can_v you_o think_v the_o assembly_n will_v be_v carry_v with_o public_a interest_n and_o leave_v the_o stream_n of_o the_o word_n will_v not_o the_o assembly_n rather_o follow_v the_o word_n of_o god_n account_v late-walking_a according_a to_o that_o the_o great_a and_o most_o public_a interest_n have_v the_o parliament_n kingdom_n and_o minister_n do_v and_o suffer_v so_o much_o for_o a_o reformation_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o now_o after_o all_o this_o be_v there_o a_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n divide_v from_o the_o word_n to_o carry_v away_o the_o minister_n call_v together_o according_a to_o which_o a_o government_n must_v be_v frame_v and_o the_o church_n reform_v and_o this_o be_v the_o great_a disadvantage_n that_o some_o member_n of_o the_o assembly_n who_o will_v go_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n meet_v withal_o and_o must_v be_v put_v to_o swim_v against_o brother_n what_o will_v the_o prelate_n say_v of_o our_o reformation_n and_o church_n government_n when_o you_o speak_v thus_o have_v not_o you_o put_v a_o sword_n into_o their_o hand_n this_o day_n against_o we_o and_o shall_v we_o not_o hear_v of_o it_o but_o i_o wish_v brother_n whilst_o you_o thus_o asperse_v the_o assembly_n with_o the_o danger_n of_o be_v carry_v a_o way_n with_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n that_o the_o stream_n of_o your_o own_o particular_a private_a interest_n and_o credit_n among_o the_o people_n do_v not_o too_o much_o carry_v you_o away_o as_o many_o other_o way_n so_o in_o write_v