wicked men spake P. T. The Scripture consists of two parts An Historical and a Doctrinall part The former is a true record of severall things spoken and done by severall persons and upon severall occasions and here we grant that there are some things recorded which are in themselves false The Pharisees spake concerning Christ say we not well thou art a Samaritan and hast a Devil the thing as spoken by the Pharisees was false blasphemy against the Son of God and we also meet with many things left upon record in the Scriptures which the Devill and wicked men spake falsely but then we must distinguish between the thing related and the relation of it the relation is true though the thing as spoken by the Devill and wicked men is false the Scripture doth truly relate some things which were falsely seoken And concerning the Doctrinall part of the Scripture It is a true record of divine Truth concerning things to be beleeved and done having its rise from the pure Fountain the Spirit of truth E. B. We say and grant the same P. T. Where then lyes the difference Will. Fisher He was one of them called Quakers we all hear themselves acknowledge the Scriptures a declaration of falsehood as well as of truth and how then can this be the word of God P. T. Friend do not mistake nor goe about to pervert my words I distinguished the Scriptures into an Historical and doctrinal part And concerning the former I doe not say it is a false Declaration although some things declared therein are false The Scripture is a true Declaration of whatsoever it Declares and nothing of falsehood can be charged upon it it truly Declares those false things which some wicked ones spake the falsehood is theirs who spake it not the Scripture that relates it some of the Devils words which he upon severall accasions spake are there related but no where through the whole Scriptures are any of the Devils Doctrins taught but every where declared against and farther those falsehoods and blasphemies which the Devill and many wicked men spake which are there recorded are not the greatest part of what is written but that which is upon accasion here and there mentioned and the mentioning of these things is for our benefit and advantage that knowing what a one the Devill is we might more carefully watch against his wiles and take heed of associating our selves with such who are Children like this their Father least they prove a snare to us And concerning the Doctrinall part of Scripture you heard me call it a true record of divine Truth it is truth both in the declaration and in the thing declared and here I shall adde farther First That these Scriptures are no other then the language of the Spirit of truth which spake in those holy men of God who were the Pen-men thereof Secondly It is the same Spirit which dwels and speaks in the Saints now with that which dwelt and spake in the Saints in former dayes Thirdly The Spirit is so one and ever the same with it self that it never contradicts or speaks things contrary to it self E. B. we grant all this and say the same P. T. Then so farre we are one And from this grant we may adde though it was not then hinted that what soever Spirit brings any other or teaches contrary Doctrin to what was preached by Christ the Prophets and Apostles and left upon record in the holy Scriptures for our learning is not of God but of the Devil not the Spirit of Christ but of delusion in what garbe soever it comes E. B. I say no more then what the Scripture it self sayes viz. it is a Diclaration of things that were beleeved Luke 1.1 For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a Declaration of those things which are most surely beleeved among as ye see here it is called a Declaration of things that were beleeved this is Scripture language a Declaration of things which were beleeved P. T. You own it a Declaration of things that were beleeved in former dayes but do you own it a Declaration of things that are to be beleeved by us in this our day things that we are to beleeve E. B. Yea which we are to beleeve but still I say and I pray all take notice I say the Scripture is not the Word of God but a Declaration the Scripture is but writing and it is not the writing which is ihe Word but the thing written of P. T. Since ye are so shy of calling the Scriptures the word of God will ye own them the words of God the words of the Spirit of truth which spake in those servants of God who were the Pen-men thereof nothing was answered directly to this but a multitude of words heaped up together about a Diclaration of and the thing written of of many words but little matter why they should be so shy of calling them at least the words of God I cannot say unless they were afraid least such a grant should have made us too neare together For Christ useth both expressions John 5.24 Verely verely I say unto you he that heareth my word c. Chap. 8.31 If ye continue in my Word c. And in Mark 8.38 whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my word before this adulterous and sinfull generation c. John 8.47 He that is of God heareth Gods words John 15.7 If ye abide in me and my words abide in you c. and Iohn 14.23 where by word and words is meant one and the same thing viz. That Doctrine of divine and heavenly truth which was preached by Christ and afterwards by his Apostles the Spirit teaching them all things and bringing all things to their rememberance whatsoever Christ had said unto them John 14.26 this divine and heavenly Doctrin which was preached by Christ and his Apostles and afterwards delivered in writing and left upon record to this day in the Scriptures we call the Word or Words of God E. B. The thing written of I call the Word of God but not the Scripture which is no other then meer writing P. T. We distinguish betweene the writing and the thing written it is not the writing as it is meer inke and paper but the thing written which we own the Word of God W. F. Let us then at last se wherein we agree and wherein we differ we say Christ is the Word of God so say they we say the Scriptures are they which testifie of Christ so say they we say the Scripture is a Declaration of things to be beleeved so say they we say the writing is not the word of God so say they P. T. We say that Christ is the essential word and the Scriptures the Declarative Word of God not the meer writing but the thing written that divine and heavenly Doctrin which is contained in these writings is the pure word of truth given in by
mentioned 2 Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of the Prophets c. The Apostle Peter cals that which the Prophets spake and writ the Word ye will not I hope say the word of man but the word of God in the mouth and writings of the Prophets E. B. The Scripture is that a man may carry up and down with him in his hand or pocket but so he cannot the word yea if the Scripture be the word then I may say I have the word of God in my hand lifting up his Book to the people that all might see it then I may say I have Christ in my hand and I have the Spirit in my hand I have Life and Death Heaven and Hell in my hand c. R. G. You have that in your hand which declares all these these were R. G. words not as some have said you have the thing signified but you have that which Declares all these E. B. So I say this Scripture Declares those things it is a Declaration of the Word but is not it self the Word P. T. It is not the Essentiall word but the Declarative word of God wherein the mind will and counsell of God concerning us is made known E. B. The Word was before any Scripture was given for they were given many years after the creation of the world and some of them at one time some at another but the word was from eternity P. T. Those Doctrins of divine and heavenly truth recorded and delivered to us in the Scriptures were the things of the Spirit of God before committed to writing and remaine the same in this day of the Scriptures and shall be the same when the Scripture viz. the writing shall be no more but this doth not at all contradict what hath been asserted viz. that the thing written is this word of God the mind will and counsell of God given forth to us in writing which we are to own and follow as a Rule to us in all our wayes E. B. I pray all take notice what I say The Scriptures are but writing and therefore cannot be the Word of God the writing is not the Word but the thing written of P. T. You have been sufficiently answered already but you will receive none onely go your Round in a circle We do not affirm that the ABC c. or that words of the Scripture as they consist and are made up of Letters and syllables are the Word of God but that which is exprest by these The Spirit makes use of these words consisting of letters and syllables to speak to us as we are able to bear and to understand and that which is here written viz the mind and meaning of the Spirit exprest in these words in this writing or Scripture is that we call and own the word of God or the things of the Spirit of God Declared and given forth to us in writing The second thing debated was concering Justification which took up neare two hours time wherein I spake little by reason I could fully close with neither party In which discourse words were multiplyed and especially by them called Quakers who would oft-times speak two or three successively giving way to none other I thing I may truely say that I never spent so long time in hearing spirituall things spoken to with lesse profit whatsoever it was to others it was to me a most wearisome and unprofitable Discourse which I shall leave till the last and then give a breife hint of it The third thing laid down formerly by E. B. for Doctrine and now objected against by R. G. was III. That evill motions not consented to were not sin And what plain contradiction is here to own them evill and yet not sin unlesse consented to If evill motions then are they a deviation from the holy righteous and good law of God and consequently unrighteousness and the Apostle tells us All unrighteousness is sin 1 Iohn 5.17 Bellarmine layes it down more subtilly for it is one of his Doctrines when he sayes concupiscence is not sin unless consented to but to grant them evill motions and yet deny them to be sin till consent be given who can be so dull sighted as not to see a plain contradiction in such a position if evil in their own nature how can they be called otherwise then sin even before consented to if neither evil nor sin how can consent make them sin E. B. Thou hast not laid down my words right according to my meaning R. G. They are the very same words I heard you deliver without any alteration W. F. We say that temptations are not sin or transgressions unless consented to Mr. Hall of Colbrook in Middlesex do you speak of temptations from without or such which have their rise from within and out of a mans own heart E. B. I said then and say the same now that temptations unto sin are not sin without consent For the Devill tempted Christ who yet did no sin because he consented not to the temptation R. G. You now speak of temptations which are from without and from the Devil which we grant are not our sin unless consented to but our question is according to what you seemed to own in your discourse whether evil thoughts and motions which are from within and rise out of the heart are not sin unless consented to W. F. Dost thou grant no difference between thoughts and motions R. G. Those motions to sin which arise out of a mans own heart have ever the thoughts going along with them and whether consented to or no Salomon tells us the thought of folly is sin E. B. I say motions to sin are not sin without consent R. G. Such motions which arise out of a mans own heart E. B. Yea Such motions R. G. And take along with you all your own words viz. Evill motions arising out of a mans own heart are not sin unless consented to And what is a contradiction if this be not evil motions and yet not sin our consent makes them more sinful but cannot make them to be sin if they were not such before E. B. They are not my sin although evill in themselves unless I consent R. G. whose sin are they then W. F. They are not his sin unless he consents Ye know the Apostles words It is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me Rom. 7.20 Mr. Hall Who is that Me in whom sin is found was it not Paul and who is that Him in whom sin dwells is it not Edward Burroughs W. F. Ye see according to the Apostle it is not he that doth it but sin that dwelleth in him Mr. Hall In the Apostle was flesh found as well as spirit and these two were contrary maintaining war one against another the Apostle being the person or subject in whom were both found And while E. B. sayes it is not I but sin that dwels in me Who is the Me in whom
the Spirit unto those who were the Penmen of the Scriptures and remaines unto us unto this day a rule in the letter concerning things to be beleeved and practiced by us E. B. I say the Scriptures Declare the Word of God and therefore are not the Word for that which declares and that which is Declared are not one and the same thing but two P. T. You have heard the distinction which is a full answer to this but do you not grant that that heavenly Doctrin which is there Declared is truth E. B. Yea I grant it P. T. And that those holy men of God who writ the Scriptures did both speak and write as they were moved by the holy Spirit E. B. Yea I say so also P. T. And that those things there declared and given forth in writing are things to be beleeved and practiced by us in these our dayes as well as by those in whose generation they were written E. B. I grant all this P. T. Then you say in effect the same and no other then what we do viz. that the Scriptures are the Declarative Word of God and consequently the wide difference as it seems betweene us concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God is rather in words and expressions then in matter and substance R. G. What they grant doth not yet satisfie us for they acknowledge the Scriptures onely a Declaration and deny it to be the Word but I say further and will prove it that the Scriptures are the Word of God W. F. The letter of the Scriptures R. G. Yea the Letter W. F. Mark that Collonel speaking to Collonel Bisco who was there present he sayes he will prove the letter to be the Word R. G. I say the Letter by a Figure Before the argument was laid down one of them called Quakers whose name I know not produced that text of the Apostle 2 Cor. 3.6 calling out to the People to hearken to the form of wholesome words who also hath made us able Ministers of the new Testament not of the Letter but of the Spirit for the Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life W. F. The Apostle was a Minister of the word and Gospel of Christ and he sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit but thou sayest the Letter is the Word of God and wilt undertake to prove it wilt thou then contradict the Apostle and prove him a Minister of the Letter when himself sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit R. G. You wrest the Apostles words who doth not there speak of or meane the Letter of the Scriptures but the difference between the legall and Gospel Ministration W. F. But thou saidst that thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God R. G. I said I would prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God which I am ready to do but ye are so full of words that ye will hear none but your selves nor give me leave to speak W. F. Well we will hear thee R. G. I lay it down in this argument That which Christ and his Apostles owned to be the word of God is indeed and in-truth the Word of God and ought to be so owned by us But Christ and his Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God Ergo The assumption or minor Proposition R. G. proved by two texts of Scripture the first concerning Christs owning the Scriptures to be the Word of God I doe not well remember but in stead of that take another Mark 7.13 Making the word of God of none authority by your tradition which ye have ordained c. The Lord Christ in the former part of the Chap reproves the hypocrisie of the Pharisees and tels them vers 8. For ye lay aside the Commands of God and observe the traditions of men The 10th verse makes it evident that by the Commands of God which they rejected Christ means the law given from God to the people of Israel by the hand of Moses which was a written Law and the same which he calls the Commands of God ver 8 9. he calls the word of God vers 13. making the word of God of none effect or of none authority by your traditions c. it relates to the Law given by Moses and more particularly to the fifth Commandement Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. which was one of the ten and written by the same hand as the rest were whence clearly appears that Christ owned and called the written Law the Word of God R. G. And that the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God will appear by comparing that text 1 Thess 2.13 with some others For this cause also we thank God without ceasing that when ye received the Word of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the Word of man but as it is indeed the Word of God You see in this text that what the Apostle preached and these Thessalonians received was indeed the word of God Now that which the Apostle preached was no other than what had been long before spoken and written by Moses and the Prophets For proof of this ye may consult Act. 26.22 and 28.23 whence appears that what was written by Moses and the Prophets was owned by the Apostle as the Word of God W. F. Thou speakest now of that which is written but didst undertake and saidst thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God P. T. He said by a Figure W. F. Thou saidst the Letter R. G. You cannot conceive since I speak of a Figure that my meaning was the meer writing but by Letter and Scripture I meant the thing conteining for the thing conteined the writing for the thing written E. B. Well I will answer thee The Apostle preached the Gospell and this we grant is the word and power of God to salvation unto every one that beleeveth the Gospell is the word and power of God but not the Scriptures and it is the Gospel which the Apostle preached and which the Thessalonians received not as the word of man but as it was indeed the word of God the Gospel is the Word of God the Scriptures are not P. T. There is a twofold coming of the Gospel viz. in word and secondly in power 1 Thes 1.5 and it is the same the very same Gospel of Christ in the hand of both Ministrations the same Gospel of Christ when it comes in word and Letter as when it comes in Spirit and Power Again the Apostle writ the same which he preached he did not preach one thing and write another but the same Gospel and word of truth which he preached the same he writ if that therefore which he preached was not the word of man but indeed the word of God then that which he writ was also not the word of man but truly indeed the word of God Let us here ad another text though not then
For 1. He is God over all blessed for ever so are not we 2. He Christ Jesus hath performed the office of a Mediator between God and Man For there is one God and one Mediator between God and Man the Man Christ Iesus 1 Tim. 2.5 He is the Mediator so are not we ye will not grant every man his own Mediator and consequently so many persons reconciled to God so many Mediators when the Apostle saies there is one God and one Mediator yet but one 3. He is risen from the dead ascended into heaven and sate down at the right hand of the Father in glory so are not we Yet in some other respects as he is so are we but then we must distinguish between the truth of the thing and its manner for things that are like are not like altogether and in all respects for instance 1. He is the Son of God so are we true in respect of the thing but not in respect of the manner Christ the Son of God by nature and eternal generation we the Sons and Daughters of God by the grace of Adoption 2. In respect of holiness and Sanctification as he is so are we true in respect of the thing but not in respect of the manner Christ was holy from his conception and originally but so are not we we are sanctified in time he was perfectly just and holy without any blemish of sin so are not we for there still remains some indwellings of sin in us 3. In respect of those spiritual and heavenly vertues which shined forth in him being meek and lowly humble and self-denying patient towards all and overcoming evil with good c. as he is so are we true in respect of the things themselves but not in respect of the manner or measure Every true Member of Christ doth bear the image and likeness of Christ their Head the same spiritual vertues and true excellencies shine forth both in the Head and Members but with this difference 1. What was and is in the Head originally is found in the Members only as dependants upon Christ their Head 2. What was in the Head to the height of perfection is found in the Members but to some degree 3. What was in the Head without any contrary thereto is found in the Members but with some contrary to it in the same subject they are not perfectly light there is darkness as well as light flesh as well as spirit in the Saints Rom. 7.25 So then with my mind I my self serve the Law of God but with the flesh the Law of Sin The last thing asserted by E. B. and objected against by R. G. was That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints E. B. I do not remember that I spake it in these words R. G. I well remember your words and have neither added nor deminished a tittle E. B. I was speaking to those words Search the Scriptures c. John 5.39 and said that this Scripture was not given to the Saints but to the World at least to the unbeleeving Iews P. T. If this Scripture was given as you say to the World and Unbeleevers only then consequently all other Scriptures were given to the World and not to the Saints for this Search the Scriptures c. relates to and implies in it all other Scriptures E. B. All the Scriptures were not then written P. T. I mean it of such Scriptures as were then extant for this Text cannot be conceived as speaking of that which yet was not those Scriptures which were written after but all Scriptures written aforetime viz. the Law of Moses the Psalmes and the Prophets c. are implied in this and if this were given as you say to the Unbeleeving World and not to the Saints then consequently none of those Scriptures which this relates to were given to the Saints but to the World which I think you will be hardly able to make good W. F. Thou speakest more unreasonably in this than thou hast all the day before P. T. I speak directly to your Friends words who expresses himself Search ye the Scriptures which if it be a Command and this Command reaches no further than to the Unbeleeving World to whom shall we conceive these Scriptures in the judgement of your Friend to be given which this Text relates to It is indeed clear that these words were spoken directly to the Unbeleeving Jews and are rather to be read ye do search the Scriptures for in them ye think to have eternal life and these are they which testifie of me which words are rather a reprehension and reproof to the Jews to whom they are spoke I say a reproof not that they did search the Scriptures for this is a commendable practice and every Christian mans duty Acts 17.11 but that while they searched the Scriptures they still neglected him of whom the Scripture spake they searched the Scriptures but did not beleeve in him Christ Jesus the Messiah promised of whom Moses and the Prophets had written and whom the Scriptures did testifie of For they testifie of me and ye will not come to me vers 40. But now if you will have this a Command and affirm that this Scripture was given to the Unbeleeving World what follows but to those that are commanded and whose duty it is to search into the Scriptures are they given yea to these onely are they given therefore if the Unbeleeving World are onely commanded to search the Scriptures can they be conceived to be given to any other and thus he plainly owns though he would seem to deny it that the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints I am of an easie belief that E. B. when he mentioned that text of Iohn 5.29 Search ye the Scriptures or ye do search the Scriptures which may be read either way meant no other but these words when spoken by Christ were spoken to the unbeleeving Jews which is true but then it will not follow that these words which were at first spoken to Unbeleevers were written afterwards the holy Spirit moving holy men of God to this work for their sakes onely to whom they were spoken and consequently that this Scripture was given onely to Unbeleevers viz. the Unbeleeving Jews which were his very words if he hath not forgotten himself For first what are recorded in Scripture as things directed to some particular persons when spoken were not written onely for their sakes to whom spoken but according to that Psal 102.17 These things shall be written for generations to come c. 2. What was formerly spoken of or spoken to Unbeleevers particularly and afterwards committed to writing the holy Spirit moving hereunto was not written meerly for such in future generations to whom they were at first spoken viz. Unbeleevers but for all sorts of persons to whom this Scripture should come 1 Cor. 10.11 Yet thirdly whatsoever was written by those servants of God who were the Pen-men of the
not justified by our own but by the Righteousness of Christ P. T. Christ fulfilled all Righteousness in his own person E. B. I grant that P. T. And Christ works a work of Righteousness in our hearts by his Spirit E. B. Yea he doth P. T. And which of these do you mean when you say we are Justified by the Righteousness of Christ E. B. These are but one and the same P. T. How can this be is that Righteousness which Christ wrought out in his own person and which he works in us by his Spirit the same individual Righteousness E. B. None are justified by Christ but those who receive Christ and those who receive Christ in them is his righteousness fulfilled P. T. Christs rignteousness which he wrought in his own person did consist and was made up of several acts of conformity to the law these acts were all transient and are passed and gone may hundred yeares since The fruit indeed and benefit of whatsoever Christ did and suffered redounds to us who beleeve but can that which was his personal righteousness which was performed by and in his own person so many yeares agone be found in us this is impossible E. B. I will answer thee for that Christ works the same righteousness in us by his Spirit whereby we come to bear the image and likeness of Christ and this I call not our own but Christs righteousness R. G. What Christ works in us by his Spirit is our Sanctification and you will not grant any difference between Justification and Sanctification but confound them together W. F. Dost thou own a Justification by Christ secluded from the new birth and the work of sanctification R. G. I own them as two and distinct in their nature yet seclude not Sanctification from Justification as to the person justified they go alwayes together W. F. God doth not justifie persons remaining and continuing in sin he justifies from sin not in sin R. G. God justifies none in their evill and sinful practices he doth not justifie them that they should continue in sin but that being freed from sin they might become servants of rigteousness W. F. Doth Christ justifie men while sinners R. G. Christ justifies sinners as sinners I mean that every person till the act of Gods justifying passe upon him is a sinner in himself Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but beleeveth on him that justifyeth the ungodly c. P. T. It would not be amisse if they would give a definition of Justification W. F. We will if ye will have the patience to hear us Upon this a third man of their company made a large discourse concerning the person justifyed and that every justifyed person was also sanctified but came not at all to the thing it self R. G. You have given a large discription of the justifyed person but have said nothing to the thing it self nor given any definition of Justification what it is W. F. If they like not ours let themselves give a definition A reasonable motion this was but such confusion arose among the people many tongues going together that no return was at present made one of the company owning I think neither party told them they were both in the truth and of the same mind if themselves knew whereabout they were and not long after the same person in midst of this vain jangling for it deserves no better name said ye stand here pecke pecke and to no purpose ye are all a company of Novices for had there been any thing of the wisdome and power of God in either of you one side would have silenced the other before this truly a home reproof to both parties though spoke after a rude manner For there was little other then a confused multitude of words Mr. Hall After a long discourse let us at last understand what you owne and where you are doe you acknowledge that Christ wrought out a righteousness for us in his owne person E. B. I do Mr. Hall And that he works a righteousness in our hearts who beleeve by his Spirit E. B. I grant this Mr. Hall And both these concurre and go together for making up our Justification E. B. Yea that is the thing I hold it is that I own Mr. Hall And that is it which we deny After this E. B. Went on according to his manner with a large discourse concerning the persons Justifyed and that they are perfectly righteous and blamelesse before the throne of God with much of the like nature R. G. Justification is an act of Gods grace obsolving and acqiting the sinner beleeving in Christ from guilt and condemnation through the redemption that is in Christ and Sanctification is that work of grace brought forth by the spirit in the heart Concerning the former we grant that all beleeving in Christ are compleate in point of Justification but not in point of Sanctification they are compleately justified but not perfectly sanctified W. F. Thou sayest that all are compleately Justified R. G. Yea all beleeving in Christ W. F. Are they so compleate that they can never sin again after their being justified R. G. They are perfectly justified and shall never come into condemnation but are not yet so perfectly sanctified as to be free from all indwelings of sin in them there are remainders of the flesh in the most upright and in many things they sin but from that word they may yet encourage their hearts If any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous c. Iohn 2.1 W. F. If they are compleate then all their sins are pardoned R. G. Yea all the sins of them that beleeve in Christ are pardoned and shall be no more remembred against them W. F. Are they justified from all sins past present and to come R. G. As to an eternall Justification with God I grant it but not in respect of actuall Justification in their own persons which is given forth onely in time W. F. An eternall Justification then persons are Justified before they are and their sin pardoned before committed R. G. In reference to the decree of God they are 2 Tim. 1.9 and also in reference to the price payed for Christ was the Lambe slaine from the beginning of the world W. F. went on making a great stirre about the word compleate and thou saidst we are compleately justified R. G. I said and will prove that all beleeving in Christ are compleately Justified Rom. 8.33.34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect it is God that justifieth who shall comdemne it is Christ that is dead yea rather risen againe c. Those to whose charge nothing can be laid are compleately Justified and you see clearly that the Apostle owns it concerning the elect or all who beleeve in Christ there is none can lay any thing to their charge E. B. Christ hath fulfilled all righteousness in his own person and he works a perfect righteousness in