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A88157 An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth. Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657. 1645 (1645) Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845 46,842 48

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have them follow him no further then he followed Christ 1. Cor. 11.1 But your Ministers in their actions and practise do declare and say unto the people that they will not owne Jesus Christ for the only Prophet or his Church and therefore they teach the people to worship the Lord with Ceremonies and Wil-worship as Capping Cringing and Duking clean contrary to the seccond Commandement and also with Holy G●●ments as they call them and with booke prayer translated out of the Popes cursed Masse-booke as worthy Dr. Eustaricke doeth in the third part of h●s Letany declare and prove by which they teach the people to leave the naked simplicity of that worship which Jesus Christ hath instituted in his New Testament John 4.23.25 saying to the woman of Samaria the hower cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship him for God is a spirit and they that worship rim must worship him in spirit and in truth and tie and bring the people to worship God with a worship which is meerly and altogether sinfull mens inventions and foolish devises which worship is odious detestable hatefull abominable to God Esa 1.11.12.13 66.3.4 Jer. 6.19.20 25.6.44.21.22.23 Amos 5.21.22 Mat. 15.8.9 Marke 7.7.8 Col. 2. So that I may truly say of the Church of England and the worshippers therein as the spirit of God said of Judah in the second of Esa 8.9 their Land also is full of Idols they worship the workes of their owne hands that which their owne fingers have made and the meane man boweth downe and the great man humbleth himselfe therefore forgive them not 3. Againe in the third place as Jesus Christ is the only Preist and Porphet of his Church so he is the only King and Lawgiver of it and to it and none else Psal 2. 149.19 Esa 9.6.7 83.20 for the Lord is our Judge the Lord is our Lawgiver saith the Church of God the Lord is our King he will save us now the Apostles by their ministery taught this to the Saints and Churches of God That Jesus Christ is the only King and Lawgiver of and to his Church vnto whose Lawes and Septer alone and to none other they must stoope submit and yeild unto Ephes 1.21.22 2.22.23 Col. 2.2.3.6.7 Heb. 3. begin 20.28.29 12.25 But your Ministers by their Ministrery teach the people to rebell and bid defiance against the Septer Lawes and Commands of Christ as though he had not had wisedome and power enough to have erected and governed his owne spirituall Kingdome and to have instituted sufficient Offices as voyd places for his people by virtue of his Lawes to elect and chuse Officers to administer therin for the building of them up till they come to perfect then in the knowledge of God and unto the measure of the fulnes of Christ contrary to what the Apostle affirmes by the spirit of God Ephes 4.11.12.13 and therefore they teach the people to run to Antichrist and seeke for more Officers Away with such horrible wickednes as this which your Bishops Preists and Deacens those litle toes of Antichrist dayly and howerly perpetrate and commit as if so be Jesus Christ had not been so faithfull in his House as Moses was in his and as though he had not had so sufficient a care of his Church under the Gospell as Moses had under the Law and therefore they goe unto Antichrist Christs professed enemie and there would teach the people to seeke for Lawes for the governing of the Church of God under the Gospell rakeing them out of his cursed counsels Bookes of Articles and diabolicall Traditions and in their doing of this which is their constant practises they teach flat Rebellion and High Treason againg the Septer and Kingdome of the everlasting Son of God who will have his church governed by his owne Lawes which he instituted and left recorded in his last Will and Testament which he hath bequeathed to his church commanding them as they will answer it before his dreadfull appearing to observe and keep them strictly without violation in the least and also by his owne Officers therein expressed who are only five who are to be permanent officiating in personall presence and Being for the freedome of his church namely Pastor Teocher Elder Deacon and Widdow Rom. 12.7.8 Phil. 1.1 1 Tim. 3. 5. chap. But they teach the people to goe to the Lawes and Officers of Antichrist which are a great multitude in number as Patriarkes Primates Metrapolitanes Arch-Bishops Lord Bishops Deanes Chancellours Vicar generall Prebends Doctours of the Civill Law Doctours of Divinity Proctours Registers Arch-Deacons Sub-Deacons Preists Jesuites Parish-preists Parsons Vicars Curates Cannons Petty Cannons Chanters Vestrey men Church wardens Sworne men Side men Parish clarkes damnable and divelish Pursevants Summers Apparritours with a great many more And therefore in this respect doe not by their Ministery accomplish the same ends that the Ministery of the Apostles did and so by your owne grounds are no true Ministers And a● for those two things of conversion and confirmation or building up in the wayes of God which you speake of if you meane by conversion an opening of the eyes to turne them from drunkenes to light and from the power of Satan unto God Or if you meane by conversion a deliverance from the power of darkenes and a translation into the Kingdome of the Son of God both of which the Apostles Ministery did accomplish in the hearts and lives of Gods people Asts 26.18 Col. 1.13 I absolutely deny it that your Ministery in England doth this And therefore I desire you to declare what you meane by conversion and prove your definition by the holy Scripture and also prove that you in England are so converted which when you have done I shall further answer you by Gods assistance And as for their building them up in the wayes of God as all true Sheepheards ought to build up their sheepe as Acts 20. 1 Pet. 5. yet I deny it that your ministers doe it for how can they build them vp in that which they themselves are ignorant of and enemies unto for as Jannes and Jambres which withstood Moses so doe these men also resist the truth being men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth 2 Tim. 3.8 and doe feed you with huskes and chaffe being neither willing to embrace it themselves nor to let those that would as their constant preaching and speaking against the truth of God and the Kingdome of his Son doth witnesse And in the conclusion of this your Argument you say when the Separation can prove conversion in an Antichristian Church you will say more to them this belongs to you to prove for we doe not plead for Antichrist but against him and all his And therefore have I taken the paines by the Word of God and demonstrable Argument grounded therevpon to prove the Church
making of Officers Againe in the New Testament you doe not find neither are you able to prove or shew one example that an Apostle was made by anorher Apostle or that on Evangelist was made by another Evangelist or that one Bishop or Elder was made by another Bishop or Elder or ever that one Officer made another Officer in the same Office that he himselfe was in so that your making of Bishops by other Bishops is an Invention of the Man of Sinne and his Fellowes therefore to make Officers by Officers will never be proved by you nor any others to be Essentiall to the making of an Officer and therefore I say of your Officers that both the makars and those that are made by them are all of them false not only in regard this action is a siction of your owne Invention but also because your Church is false and Antichristian Therefore if every Parish in England had power in themselves which in the least they have not to chuse and make their owne Officers yet for all this they would be false for a false and Antichristian Church as yours is can never make true Officers and Ministers of Jesus Christ and though that the Churches of the Seperation want the Apostles in personall presence to lay hands upon their Officers which lawfully they chuse out from among themseves yet have they their Lawes Rules and Directions in writing which is their Office and is of as great Authority as their personall presence Mat. 7.12 Luk. 16.29.31 Joh. 5.45 Act. 13.27 15.21 21.21 2. Cor. 3.15 All these writings doth shew that the Scriptures Lawes of Moses the Prophets was their Office for they themselves were dead long before Christs time but their writings did still remaine wherefore the spirit of God is pleased to call them by their names shewong that they are of as great Authority as their personall presence were and those that now read them if they doe not obey them is as inexcusable as those that lived in their daies heard them from their mouthes and yet rejected them Even so now though we have not Peter Paul the rest of the Apostles in personall presence yet we have now their Lawes Rules Epistles directions which they sent gave to the Churches of God that was planted in their times these are there Office are of as great Authority Sufficiency as their personall presence yea and of greater as the very false Apostles themselves those enemies of Paul doe confesse for his letters say they are waighty powerfull but his bodily presence is weake his speech contemptible 2. Cor. 10.10 For Paul in the writing of the Scripture was so powerfully guided by the Spirit of God that it was not possible for him to erre in the doing of it whereas in his other personall actions he was subject to sin failings as well as Peter was Gal. 2.11 the rest of the Apostles some of which we read of Act. 22. which was his going into the Temple with others after the Ceremoniall Law of Moses to purifie himselfe when he knew his Lord Master Christ at his death had abolished and put an end both to the Temple all the Mosaica●● Rites Ceremonies Worship and he himselfe with the rest of the Apostles Act. 15. but the Spirit of God had decreed the same which they commanded the Churches inviolably to observe and also he himselfe before did preach the same so that I say the Apostes Lawes is their office and is of as great yea greater authority then if now we had them in personall being therefore in my judgement those that doe maintaine Apostles now in personall being doe maintaine an errour seing that the Apostle Paul calls himselfe and Barnabas the last as it were men apoynted to death 1 Cor. 4.9 if they were the last then none were to follow or succeed them in their Office therefore your Bishops are all Liars in calling themselves the Apostles successours for they are Antichrists Locusts Frogges which are said to come out of the smoke of the bottommlesse pot or out of the mouth of the Dragon Beast false Prophet Rev. 9.3 16.13 So that I affirme the Officers in the true Churches of the Sepearion that are called by virtue of the Apostles Lawes though they want them to lay hands upon them to shew their aprobation of their fitnesse for their Office yet they are as true Officers as those that they themselves caused to be made and laid their hands upon And thus have I sufficiently by the authority of the sacred word of God proved all your Officers Ministers false Antichristian none of Christs which if you can groundedly contradict shew your best skill challeng I you put you to● prop to hold up your tottering sandy Ch. Min. or else your great brags will prove no better then wind and fables and you your selfe found to be a liar 2. Againe in ●he second place if your Preists by their ministery do not accomplish the same ends that the Apostles by their ministery did then by your own grounds they are no true Ministers of Christ and that they doe not by their ministery accomplish the same ends that the Ministery of the Apostles did I prove it out of the 1 Cor. 11.2 where the Apostle doth praise the Corinthians that they did remember him in all things keep all the ordinances as he had delivered them unto them here was one maine end that the Ministery of the Apost did accomplish namely to bring the Saints in the ch of God to the obedience not only of some but of all the Lawes of Christ but your Ministery never did never will nor never can so long as they stand in their present calling and office accomplish this end in the heart lives of those that heare and give eare vnto them but rather by their Ministery they teach them flat Rebellion to the Lawes and Ordinances of Christ 1. As first Christ is not only the alone Preist of his Church and people to reconcile them by his blood to God his Father but also he is the alone and only Prophet of his Church to whom alone they are to goe for counsell and knowledge and to whose voyce only they are to give eare and to no other Prophet and this did his Apostles teach his people to observe Acts 3.22.23 for Moses truly said unto your Fathers a Prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you of your Brethren like vnto me him shall you heare in all things whatsoever he shall say vnto you and it shall come to passe that every soul that will not heare that Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people and Gal. 5 1 there Paul bids them stand fast in the Liberty wherewith Jesus Christ hath made us free and b● n●t againe entangled in the yoke of bondage And in his giving Lawes to the Corinthians he would
stripling with his sheepheards staffe and a company of smooth stones flung out of a slinge overcame and destroyed that mighty Giant who thought none so stronge as himselfe 1 Sam. 15. and justifieth an one are you and will prove to be for you fight for the spirituall Philistims the enemies of the Lord namely for Antichrist and his Kingdome and you send forth great bragges boastes against the truth of God amongst your ignorant acquaintance but indeed they are nothing but wind and chaffe not able to stand before the breath of Gods sacred truth which his weake servants for their conquering weapons make use of as I have already and shall more fully by the strength of God make it appeare in my following lines and therefore to confute your Argument and lay it even with the ground I will bring your owne Writers weapons who were members in the Church of England who doe not plead for Separation but for Reformation therein read but the Lincolne-shire Ministers Abridgment and Mr. Cartwrights Defence against Bishop Whiteguift sometime Pope of Lambeth and Dr. Ames his Fresh Suite against Humaine Ceremonies and you shall see your worship proved to be Antichristian and none of Christs but of the Divels invention Also read the Scots Dispute printed in Holland the last Summer and you shall see the greatest part of your worship and all your humaine Ceremonies with which you serve God proved to be Idols as your holy garments and your invented gestures of bowing and cringing and your kneling at the act of receiving the Sacrament c. Also read a litle Booke of Mr. Damfords sometime Minister of Colmanstreet in London against the Service And noble Dr. Bastwickes book called The Vanity and Impiety of the old Letany and you shall see the Wickednes Sinfulnes and Vngodlines of it set forth to the utmost for there it is proved to be an Idoll which as he there faith sends more soules to Hell in a yeare then all the prophanenesse deboystnesse wickednesse and ungodlynes in the Kingdome doth besides and that nothing could have been invented either by the Divell or the Pope for a greater meanes to pull downe the Kingdome of Christ and for the maintaining and building up the Kingdome of Antichrist and therefore I put you upon it to Answer their writings and confute the Arguments of your own Authors which have fully proved that your worship is no divine but humane worship and therefore not a true but a false worship Now if you should deny that your humaine invented diabollicall Booke of Common prayer and your sacred Ceremonies as your Lords and masters the Bishops cals them are not the worship with which you in the Church of England worship and serve God the Booke of Common prayer it selfe will confute you for there in the Preface before that Booke of devised Service and wicked mans invention they ascribe to the dumbe Ceremonies a Sacramentall naature and the very Office and worke of the spirit of God the doing of which makes them all to become Idols and all those Idolaters that use them or partake with them that doe it for there they say they are apt to stirre up the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God by some notable and speaciall signification whereby he might be edefied Also in the act of vniformity they themselves doe confesse that they are but of mans Invention and device and to worship God with mans devices and Inventions is odious and detestable unto him as before I have fully proved and therefore you in England have not the true Worship of God and so by your owne confession are not a true Church of Christ But now to answer your Argument which you bring to prove your Assumption which is this You have had those that have lived and dyed in the same Worship which you still have and have beene saved in it therefore it must needes be a true Worship This you say but doe not prove it in the least but still take that for granted which I deny which is that it doth not therefore follow because some in the Church of England have been saved that have used your Worship that therfore it is true Worship for then it would follow that the Worship in the Papistry which in some respects is more grosser then yours is a true Worship for you dare not deny it which if you doe you are not able to prove it that in the Papistry there hath not beene many people that have lived and died therein that have been saved for the Scripture doth declare that God hath a people there which he calls uppon to come out thence Rev. 18.4 for he ownes his Elect even in Spirituall Babilon yet for all this it doth not follow that their Worship is or ever was a true Worship though the Riches of the Grace and unfathomable Goodnes of the Kindnes and Love of God doth reach and extend so far as to save some that live and dy in that Worship as well as in the Worship of England yet I say it is as extraordinary a worke as the manifestation of Gods love to the Thiefe upon the Crosse was but for all that I will maintaine it that none of those that yeild and submit themselves unto your or their Worship cannot by the Scripture prove himselfe to be a visible Christian or a true beleever if they should be put by Gods people to prove it Joh. 14.21.23.24 15.8.14 Col. 15.19 to the end Eph 5.8 Col. 1.21 Tit. 1.16 2.14 1 Pet. 2 9. Heb 9.14 Jam. 2.17 18. 1 Joh. 3.8 2 Joh. 9. Rev. 13.8 14.1.4.9.10 19.20 Now from that which I have said I frame these Arguments 1 That Worship which is of the Divells and Antichrists Invention Institution setting up is no true divine Worship But the Worship of the Church of England is of the Divells Antichrists Invention Institution setting up as the forenamed Authors and the 13. Chap of the Rev. doth fully prove Ergo. The Worship in the Church of England is no true Morship 2. That Worship which is a main meanes cause of pulling downe the Kingdome of Jesus Christ establishing maintaining upholding of the Kingdome of the Devell Antichrist sends more Soules to Hell then all the wickednesse Impietie ungodlinesse in the Kingdome doth besides is no true Worship of God● but ought to be detested and abhorred of all his people But such is the Worship of the Church of England as worthy Dr. Bastwicke in the third part of his Letany doth prove Ergo. It is no true Worship but ought to be detested separated from by all Gods faithfull ones And thus much for the answering of your third fourth Arguments which you say are so strong and true that you say you need spend no more time in the proofe of them but indeed you are exceedingly mistaken for you have not in the least proved either of them as I have
nationall churches cityes or daughters that depend vpon her one of which England is and woe to that man at that day that is found within her territories or the Paile of her great catholike church or the walls of her great wide and farre spread spirituall citty Alas man there is a great deale of difference betwixt King Edwards and Queen Maryes times and ours now the martyrs and people of God were then but newly enlightned to see the blake and spirituall darke Kingdome of Satan and Antichrist in which they were brought up the darkenesse whereof was so great the Sun and the Aire was both clouded Rev. 9 2. and the bright shining light of the old and new Testament shut vp in much obscurity to what it is now and they did but see the abominable wickednes of his kingdome a farre of like the man in the Gospell whose eyes Christ opened who at his first looking up did see men walking a farre off like trees even so they saw but the truthes a farre off which made them rejoyce at a little Reformation and highly to esteeme of those things in the worship and service of God that now are made manifest by the light of truth before the open Sun to be no fitter for Gods worship and Service then kennell dirte being meer Idols and those Idolaters that communicate with them and though they rejoyced at a little Reformation of Antichrists errours but now it is made manifest that no Reformation of his Kingdome will serve the turne but it must be now annihilated and nullified before the visible Kingdome of Christ can flourish and become the praise of the whole Earth and you know and confesse they would have no Communion with the Church of Rome from which they thought they had seperated neither with that abominable Idoll the Masse which you confesse they counted detestable though they had communion with the Church of England and the Service-Booke but now the Church of England is proved againe and againe by hundreds of the Seperation and others in their disputes Sermons and writings to be as Antichristian as the Church of Rome and the Service Booke to be as detestable as the Idol of the Masse being even one and the same with it saving that it is in Latine and this in English as Noble Dr. Bastwicke hath proved And what though the abomination and fornication of that great Red WHOORE of Rome in King Edwards time was not so fully laid open but that the Martyrs and chosen people of God did then commit some spirituall Fornication with her must we therefore doe the like no God forbid for the Lambe that standeth upon mount Syon with an Hundred fourty and four Thowsand of his Elect and chosen ones having his Fathers name written in their Foreheads hath proclaimed and made it manifest that Babilon or spiritaall Rome is now fallen and is become the habitation of Divells and tho hold of every soul spirit and the Cage of every uncleane and hatefull Bird with whom Gods people now at no hand are not to be mixed in spirituall Society or Communion And what though the everlasting Gospell then was not so fully preached and revealed as now it is so that Gods people then were exceeding ignorant of it and by their blindnesse thought they thought they had seperated away from the Beasts Kingdome yet were they in it and did worship him must it then follow that we must doe so too no for now the great City Rome is much more fallen and descovered then it was and now a third Angell hath proclaimed it with a lowd voyce having his Commission from God so to doe that seing now the Booke is opened and the trueth of the everlasting Gospell is preached and Light is now brought into the world so that now if after all this a man worship the Beast and his Image or receive in his right hand or in his forhead his marke the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is powred out without mixture into the Cup of his Indignation and he shall be tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the Angells and in the presence of the Lambe and the smoke of their Torment ascended up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night that worship the Beast or his Image or receive the marke of his Name Rev. 14.8.9.10.11 Wherefore saith the Spirit of God Came out of her any people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receive not of her plagues chap. 18.5 here is the expresse command of God himselfe to all his chosen and elect ones to separate away from all Antichristian Assemblies and not in the least to partake with them in any of their worship ordinances or administrations which precept if any of them refuse to obey let them know that God will plague them and though for his Covenant sake he save their soules yet it will be through much difficulty accompaned with many an heavy and sad heart and many a bitter uncomfortable Crosse Therefore let all Gods people that yet are in her or in the bosome of the Church of England her daughter as they love their own inward peace and spirituall joy and looke that their soules should prosper and florish with grace and Godlines looke to it and withdraw their spirituall obedidience and subjection from all Antichrists Lawes and worship and now joyne themselves as fellow Cttizens of the City of God to worship and serue him in mount Syon the beauty of holynesse and there only to yeild all spirituall obedience to Christs spirituall Lawes and Scepter Now my Opposite I have fully by the authority of the sacred and pure word of God particularly answered your trifling childish and frothy arguments and proved against you and them that the church ministery and worship in England is all of them Antichristian from which all Gods people are bound in consolence ind in paine of undergoing the Lords high displeasure hnd indignation and heing portakers of his fearfull and dreadfull plagues to separate away from it and to have no communion with it Therefore to you my Opposer I say with the Prophet to backstyding Israel I● God be God follow him or if Baall or Antichrist or Rome he God then follow him And so much for the Answering of your erronious Arguments BUt now you will it may be say if salvation as you have confessed and proved may be had in a false Ch. yea in no Gh. then wherefore doe you enter into and become a member of a true Church My Answ to this is in the first place negatively I doe not enter thereinto for to be saved thereby or for to seeke for Jesus Christ as though I wanted either for I have both Christ and salvation as all those ought to have that become fellow citzens of the City of God as I have before largely proved neither doe I enter into into it to live securely and carelesly in sin