answer I may err iudgment so may others even whole churches therefore let euery man look how he iudgeth and how he deâ—endeth on other men and let evey mans â—udgment be tried by the scriptures For this cause we say vnto you seing we haue fought for the judgement of other churches but can get no answer procure you some reasons from them in defence of your church ministerie worship and ecclesiasticall gouerâ—ment and if by Gods word they can justâ—fy those things and evince that we haue done evil to depart from you we will returne vnto you Otherwise if they reioyce neuâ—r so mâ—ch for your estate we are verâ—ly perswaded that both they and you haue more causâ— to mourne for the many abominations that are amâ—ng 〈◊〉 To conclude consider in an example the weight of your argument for by the like reâ—son the envious ministers in Pauls time mought thus haâ—e justâ—fied themselues That mâ—nisterie and ministration for which the Apostles of Christ reioyce is true to be obeyed and continued in But our ministery and minâ—stration is such as for it the Apostle Paul reioyceth yea and will râ—ioyce Philip â— 16.18 If you Answer the Apostle reioyced for the preaching of Christ not forthe envious affection of the preachers who might be damned themselues notwithstanding their true doctrine it is true And so minde I for the reformed churches They reioyce for the many truthes you profesâ—e against Popery as we also doe the like yet may you neverthelesse perish for your false constitution idolatrous worship popish hierarchie and other transgressions that are among you Amend your liues therefore and turne your feet into the wayes of peace for if you rely vpon man anâ— make â—lesh yoâ—r arme and will not heâ—r the word of the Lord that condemneth your iniquities you shâ—ll perish in your sinns other châ—rches shall not be able to excuse of sâ—ue you ARGVMENTS That the PREACHERS of the best assemblies of the church of ENGLAND are true ministers of Christ. I THâ— prâ—achers after whose publick powerfull doctrine of the word do ordinarily follow repeÌ„â—ance conuersion to God sauing fayth in Christ loue to the brethrâ—n and oâ—heâ— fruits of the spiâ—it Gal. 5 6 22. in the hearers are true ministers of God and of the visible châ—rcâ— But â—fter â—he dâ—ctrine of Gods word taught by the preachers of our best asseâ—bliâ—s doe ordâ—narily appear the fruites of the spirit in the hearers Thâ—refore thâ— preachers of our best assemblies are true ministers of Christ. The â—roposition is proued because onely the word that God doth send in the 〈◊〉 oâ— his ministers is ordinarily effectuâ—ll for these things Ier. 23 22 Esa. 55 11. Mat 7 20 Luk 1 76 Ioh. 10.1 2. 1 Cor 9 1. â— 4 15. Thâ— assumption is proued by the answer to the assumption of the 4 argumeâ—◠〈◊〉 thâ— churcheâ— Answer OVR separation is from your Church consisting of many assemblieâ— all compact into ore bodâ—e and from all your Ministerie both prelacie and priesthood We cannot tel which assemblies or ministers be best for they that seem best may proue worst because they most deceiue the simple the wolf that comes in a sheeps coat is no whit better than he that commeth in his natiue hiew but he may doe more harm in that he is disguised Reason would perswade vs that the Bishops are the preachers of your best assemblies for they haue greatest dignity fatherhood and authority in your church they preach in the highest and most honorable assemblies of the land they are most carefull to obserue their oath of due obedience to keep the canonâ— orders lawes and ceremonies of your church and set themselues against such as secretly vndermine the state of the church and ministerie of England yet openlie stand members and professed friends of the same They and their assemblies are best ordered after the constitution and lawes of your church So that to speak as I think I know not which assemblies be best where the Leven hath sow red the whole lump though I can guesse which you doe mean but plain dealing about your ministers and asâ—emblies would haue beseemed you best Tel vs therefore when you next write what ministers you mean whether the Bishops Deanes Doctors c. that are in the cathedrall churches or the Doctors and Diuines that are in your vniuersities or thâ— Parsons Vicars Lecturers that are in your Parishes Again what Ministers they be whither Apostles or Prophets or Evangelists or Pastors or Teachers for all these are ministers Eph. 4. and meet it is to know your meaning for though Apostles and Pastors be both ministers ordeined of Christ yet if one will say everie Pastor is an Apostle he is but a liar So you see it is needfull that we ransack these your ambiguous and generall termes Now for your argument first I answer to the proposition that though these fruites you mention doe many times follow the doctrine of Christs ministers yet not theirs onely nor alwaies Not onelie because other men that are not in office of Ministerie may by excercise of their gifts work such fruites as appeareth 1 Cor. 14.1.31.3.24 25. c. I appeal also to your selues whether you thinke not that your best ministers though silenced or degraded from all ministeriall office may not when they teach work repentance fath and other fruites of the spirit Neither doe these fruites alwayes follow the doctrine of true ministers for Noah preached 120· yeares yet followed there not faith and repentance in the old world Christ himselfe preached to Chorazin and Bethsaida yet left the woe vpon them and complaineth in Esaias that he had laboured in vayn among the Iewes and of Israel it is said All the day long haue I stretched out my hand a disobedient and gâ—ynsaying people To reason therefore from the effects this man wrought faith by his teaching therefore he is a true minâ—ster or this man wrought not faith by his teaching therefore no true minister is vnsound and vnconcludable by the scriptures The â—roofs of your proposition being examined wil be found to light for your purpose if you mean that the officers doctrine onely or alwayes is effectuall for these thinâ—s to weet repentance faith c often I know it is and alwayes it hath effect eyther to life or death in the hearers Your scriptures are Ier 23 22. which sheweth what true prophets should labour to doe namely to turne sinners from their evill way c whereas the false prophets did otherwise Eze 13 22 but proueth not that the prophets onely did this for the Priests and Levites did it also Mal 2 6 yea priuate men may often turne their neighbours from evill Leu 4 27.8 19.17 Prou. 31.26 Mal. 3 16 Mat. 18.15 Iam. 5.19 20. neyther proveth it that the prophets alwayes did this for Esaias crieth Lord who hath beleeued our report Isa. 53.1 and it is written that the Lord testified to Israel by all the Prophets
more to separate from theâ— being maynteyned in a false vnleâ—se a false Church haue more privâ—lige tâ—en â— crâ—e And we consider that our separation is from the corrâ—â—ptioÌ„ of â— false Church 2. The scrâ—ptures also are playn that we must separate and forsake all false Churches as well as corruâ—tions in a true 2. Cor. 6 17. Come out from among them and separate your sâ—lues saith the Lord and touch no unclean thâ—ng and I will receiue you Reuelation 18 4 Goe out of her my people that ye receive not of her plagues Hosea 4.15 Come not ye vnto Gilgal neither give vp to Bethâ—ven and many the like How rightly then doe you allege scriptures as if they taught vs separation in a Church onely and not out of it also when it is false and Idolatroâ—s 3. Yoâ—r selues are a president to vs of like practise in separating not in but out of the Church of Rome as yoâ— haue dealt with the mother so doe we with the daughter because like mother like daughter according to the prouerb Eze. 16.44 4. You allege thâ— examples of all the prophâ—ts yet shew you not any that â—alâ—ed by your râ—le to seâ—arate in the Church and not out of it Wee are sure they called the people out of the Church of Israel when it was idolatrous aâ—d forbad them to come at their aâ—semblies Hos 2.2.3.4 4 15.17 Amos. 5.5 And how they coâ—ld themselues joyn with that Church from which they separated others is strange uÌ„to us especially coÌ„siâ—erinâ— that Israel in that estate is noted by the proâ—het Azariah to be withâ—ut the true God without Pâ—â—ist to teach â—nd wihtâ—ut law 1 Chro. 15.3 and may we thinke he separated not from that Church The Israelites thâ—n sacrâ—â—iced to Divils not to Gâ—â— Deut. 3â— 17. Chron. 11.15 and wil yoâ— sâ—y the prophets separated not from them 5. The like I Answer to the examples of Christ and his Apostles who as tâ—ey absteyned from corruptioâ—s in the Ieâ—ish Church so were they qâ—â—re sepâ—râ—teâ— from all false Churches as the Samâ—ritans and other like Mat 10 5. Ioh. 4.22 Act. 2.40 199 so theâ—r examples also doe approue our practise 6. Wâ—ere as you would haue noted that those Churches which Christ and hâ—s Apâ—stles coâ—â—unicated with were Antianosaicall as yours we â—ay ar◠〈◊〉 I 〈◊〉 tâ—e comparâ—son For â— the Iewish Church consistâ—d it all 〈…〉 the same Leuit 20 21.16 of a people separated not onely from heathens but also from fâ—lse professors heretiks and idolaters and were children of the prophets aâ—d couenant of God Iohn 4.9 Act 3.25 But your Church câ—nsâ—steth â—f an vnseparated people children of Idolatrous Priests strangers from the couenant of God 2. The Iewes then had their sacrifices seruices and solemne feasts according to Moses Law Mat 8.4 Mar 14.12 Luk 9. â—O 2.21 24 and Chrâ—st himselfe jâ—stâ—fâ—ed theâ—r worship Ioh. 4.22 but your seruice worship and fâ—stivalâ— are after Antichrists law translated out of his masse-booke 3. Theâ—r Priests were according to Moses instâ—tution of Aarons line Luk 1 5. with 1 Chro. 2.1 10 their Scribes and Pharisees sate in Moses chaâ—re Mat 23.2 your Priests after the Popes institution your prelates fit in Antichrist chair So they wer not so much against Moses as you are agaâ—nst Christ and that your Church reteyneth not the foundation Christ shal through his grace anone be proued The 2. Consideration 2. OVR Church hath the essentiall notes of a true church able to beget a true sauing faith to worke the fruites of the spirit to make a man a true and perfect Christian and last of all to saue him To the which also Christ hath tied his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world Rom 10 13 17 Mat 28 19.20 Act 20.32 2 Tim. 3.15.16 1. Tim. 4.16 Iam. 1.21 Isa 55 11. Answer THese notes which you propound 1 are not the essentiall notes of a true Church a neyther if they were are they ordinariely found in your Church 1. These are not essentiall notes because 1 One man may haue al this you speake of and no one man is or can be a Church for that consisteth of a multitude or nuÌ„ber of persons it is an assembly or convocation joyntly together it is a body and euery one severally is but a member 1. Cor 12 20.27 That one man may haue all your esâ—entiall notes may appear in Pavls exaâ—ple who was able to bâ—get a true sauing faith to worke the fruites of the spirit and so the rest 1. Cor. 4 â—5 Gal. 3 2 5. 2. An Angel may haue all the notes you mention and no Angel is a Church For example the Angel Gabriel who was sent to giue Daniel knowledge and understanding and preached liuly of Christs death the benifits thereof Dan. 9.21.22 c 3. A wicked man may doe al that you speake of but no wicked man is a true church Iudas sent forth with the other Apostles to preach and work miracles might bring others to saluation by his doctrine though hâ—mselfe were a reâ—robate Mat. 10.5 6. c 4. A true Church is the spowse hous of Christ bringeth him forth a sâ—irituall seed But as God gaue the blessing of multiâ—lying childreÌ„ onely to lawfull maried estate yet often it commeth to passe through hâ—s almighty power and goodneâ—â—e that harlots also are partakers of this bleâ—sing and doe bring forth children so the blessing of spirituall propagation is peculiar to the true Church yet God which brought light out of darknes causeth some children to be borne and brought vp vnto him in false Churches For example the Church of Rome the mother of whordoms and abominations of the earth hath doubtles since she was wedded to Antichrist borne and brought vp by the generall true grounds of Chrstian relâ—geon taught in her many children of God and heyres of saluation This I sâ—ppose your selues will not deny neyther yet wâ—ll you say that Rome is Christ true Church Your reason then is as if Thamer should haue pleaded I am able to bear câ—ildren to nourse and brâ—ng them vp to mans estate c. therefore I am my Father Iudahâ— true and lawfull wife Gen. 38 15.18 c. 2. Now if these were essentâ—all notes which you haue set down yet helpe they you nothing for I deny that they ar ordinarily found in your Châ—rch For though I doubt not but the doctrine of your Church hath saued many yet that is Gods extraordinary blessing not the ordinarie effects of your Church This is the thinâ— you should haue proued by comparing yoâ—r Church and minâ—sterie with the Lawes and promises in Gods word which because you haue not done but onely quoted some scriptures generally which men of all religions may doe likeweise I will by one or two of the scriptâ—res that your selfe here ciâ—e shew how vnlike you are to a true Church and Ministery In Rom. 10.3.17 th' Apostle treateth of two things 1 of calling on
life which serue to heal the nations with if he offer to touch the Egyptian vlcers that appeare in your worship church-government ministerie ceremonies c. he is presently thrust out of dores and if he dare but affirme these or any of these to be disceases and botches in your body sinns against God or repugnant to his word he is excommunicated ipso facto by the decrees of the whole representatiue church of England And are you willing now to be healed Nay if any among you not medling with the publike estate of your church but feeling or fearing his own particular sowl sicknes doe resort to a physician whose receipts are not after the common sort for aduise about his health or of friendship and acquaintance to see him he is subiect to the censure and thunderbolt of your church Witnesse the late practise in Norwich where certayn citizens were excommunicated for resorting vnto and praying with Mr Robinson a man worthily reverenced of all the city for the graces of God in him as your selfe also I suppose will acknowledge and to whome the cure and charge of their sowles was ere while committed Would any vnmercifull man haue dealt so with his bondslaue in a case of bodily sicknes But hereby all may see what small hope there is of Curing the Kanker of your church THe second question is Are they themselues healed then where were they healed where were they called where were they regenerate and begotten to Christ was it not in the womb of this our church and by means of the immortall seed of Gods word that is dayly sown in our church a holy church a church of God where in ordinarily men are called and brought to God The winde bloweth where it will and we heare the sound thereof but know not whence it cometh and whether it goeth so is every one that is bâ—rne of the spirit To your demaund then I answer we werâ— câ—llâ—â— being in Bâ—â—ylon your Church I meane which restreyneth the 〈◊〉 by vnriâ—hteousnes there was our regeneration begun Where we faâ— in darknes and in the shadow of death the light of God appeared and 〈◊〉 vs lâ—fe If you yet inquire how this was I refer you to 〈…〉 brouâ—ht light out of darknes and daylie bringeth forth the 〈…〉 treasâ—re and his wayes are past finding out for as I knâ—w 〈◊〉 tâ—e way of the winde nor how the bones doe grow in the womb of her that is with childe so know I not the work of God that worketh all If you demaâ—nd of the means it was doubtlesse the word and spirit of the Lord without which there is no calling no regeneration Now where you ask how then we can deny that to be a true church wherâ—in 〈◊〉 men are called and brough to God I answer first you take vp more thâ—n we lay down when you say â—rdinarily for the ordinary and common fruit of the word among you is through your own corrupt handling and hearing of it euell and not good the many walke the broad way and Gods calling is like to that which the Prophet sayth one of a city and two of a tribe in resâ—ect of the worldly multitudes Secondly all the Saincts are not begotten vnto Christ in the wombe of a true particular church for when the Apostle preached among Pagans conuerted many I would know in the womb of what church they were begotten they were first conuerted vnto Christ before euer they were in any other church then that Ierusalem which is aboue the mother of all the elect Let vs come to later times your selues when you began to be a church of protestants in what particular womb were your people begotten I suppose if in any it was in the womb of your mother church of Rome where they had both receiued Baptisme the seal of regeneration and been catechised in Christian religion and then look how your selues can deny that to be a true church or be free of vnthankfulnes towards her that bare you But you prosecute your cause against vs and would driue vs eyther to say there is indeed a true ministery of the word among you but it is not powrfull to any but our selues or els that we were not called in your church but since we left you To the first I answer there is no necessity that we must grant a true ministery for first we hold that the true word may be put in Balaamites mouthes and a false ministery may through Gods wondrous grace beget faith in his elect if you say otherweise you will shake the foundation of your English church layd by Austâ—â— the monk Pope Gregories Apostle and damn all your late fathers vnder the Roman Clergie Secondly we â—ie not the grace of God in the true church to the ministers lips knowing that men by other meanes are often conuerted to the Lord. And if your ministers in England hold that men cannot be begotten to Christ among them but by their preaching you may take vp your Letanie which causlesse you vse for vs and say from this horible and bellish pride good Lord deliuer them As they cannot restreyn the winde from blowing so much lesse the spirit of God from breathing out of other places then ministers mouthes To the second also I answer that it is one thing to be called in your church as you speake and another thing to be called by your church or ministery as I thinke you mean It is written Reu. 18.4 Goe out of her my people you see here Gods people were in Babylon and are called ovt of the same not by Babel it selfe or any minister of it buy by a voyce from heauen So we might be called in your church though not by the same And thus we haue not bard our selues from pleading against you as you would bear men in hand neyther yet shew you of whom or wher you had that which you say we all stoutly answer and stifly stand to it namely that we leau your church meerly only out of conscience c. We haue a better ground if you would receiue it euen the Law of the Lord that so commandeth both vs and our consciences Conscience is the blinde Papists common plea but we know that mans conscience is as much defiled as any other part or power of his sowl or body and therefore it may be no rule of our actions but the law of God onely which is pure perfect and vndefiled Yet you wil needs proceed and say then we had conscience before we left you I answer yea or els we would not haue left you Thinke you that your predecessors had no conscience when they left the Popish church Then where say you of us and minde whether the Papists will not say as much of you where came they to that conscience and care of their saluation but in our church You are answered before we had it in your church as Gods