you blaspheme in it Hart. Blaspheme why say you so Rainoldes Because you deny Christ the Sonne of God to be the one Pastor and so the head of his Church For he to whom an other succeedeth in an office doth cease him selfe to beare the office as Felix did cease to bee gouernour of Iurie when Festus was in place to be his successour Wherefore if the office of that one Pastor continue by succession then doth it wholy rest in the successor that is the Pope and Christ the predecessor is discharged of it Hart. You speake as though we named the Pope Christes successor which we are farre from For we know that Priestes after the order of Aaron had therefore successors because they were not suffered to endure by reason of death But Christ endureth euer as being a Priest after the order of Melchisedech and so hath no successors We name S. Peter Christes vicar the Pope Christes vicar and successor of Peter but neither Peter nor the Pope successor of Christ. Rainoldes If it be as you say then raze out for shame that prophane spéech out of your sacred Ceremonies of the Church of Rome Christ did first name and ordaine Peter his successor saying to him Feede my sheepe and in the same sort did Peter also name Clemens But sith you acknowledge that Christ is one Pastor and yet hath no successor you haue giuen ouer the fortresse of that which you meant to seaze on by those wordes of Christ that there should be one flocke one Pastor For where as you saide that this soueraine Pastor must doth continue one by succession in Peter and the Pope you confesse now that without succession he doth continue one in person euen Christ the Pastor of our soules the great the chiefe Pastor who walketh in the middest of the seuen golden candlestickes that is of the seuen and by consequent of all Churches Hart. I confesse that Christ continueth the Pastor of our soules the chiefe Pastor and hath no successor as succession is taken properly But he made a vicar that is a chiefe Pastor vnder him in earthe to continue by succession Whom also hée meant by the name of one Pastor and not himselfe alone Rainoldes The verie wordes of scripture and circumstances of the text doo proue the contrarie For to whom did Christ speake when he saide I haue other sheepe which are not of this folde and them must I bring and they shall heare my voyce and there shal be one flocke one Pastor was it not to the Iewes Hart. To the Iewes Rainoldes Then by other sheepe not of that folde hée meant the Gentiles Hart. The Gentiles Rainoldes And it was Christes office to bring them also to his folde Hart. It was so Roinoldes To bring them by his voyce which they should heare Hart. What then Rainoldes Is not he the Pastor whose voyce the sheepe heare Hart. Who denyeth it Rainoldes Then if the Iewes and Gentiles heare the voice of Christ and so become one flocke how could he meane any but himselfe alone by the one Pastor Hart. Him selfe alone I graunt directly and first but secondarily and by consequent his vicar too Peter and Peters successor For Christ while he liued in flesh vpon the earth did not bring the Gentiles he was not sent he saide but to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel In the which respect S. Paul calleth him the minister of circumcision because he did execute his office and ministery onely towardes the people of circumcision that is the Iewes The Gentiles he did bring after his ascension by the ministerie of his seruants chiefly of S. Peter whom hauing instructed by a vision from heauen hée sent him to Cornelius chose him that the Gentiles should heare by his mouth the worde of the Gospell and beleeue Wherefore as Christ saide that he must bring the Gentiles though he meant to bring them not by his owne preaching but by the mouth of Peter and so Peter brought them after a sorte too likewise he gaue him selfe the name of one Pastor though he fedde his flocke not in his owne person but in his vicar and so might hée meane his vicar too thereby Rainoldes This is a greater argument that he meant not Peter nor Peters successor as you terme him by the name of one Pastor For if he meant him selfe not as hee liued in the flesh but as he raigneth in glorie then meant he that prerogatiue which is onely his as head of the Church and may be no way giuen vnto flesh and blood For the proofe whereof we are to weigh farther that in saying I must bring them they shall heare my voyce he meaneth effectuall bringing and hearing through which they who are his sheepe do folow him and he doth giue them eternall life and they shall neuer perish and none shall plucke them out of his hand Now whom Christ bringeth after this maner he bringeth them by two meanes by the preaching of his worde and the working of his Spirite As he worketh by his Spirite so he hath no vicar him selfe doth open the heart of Lydia and baptize with the holy Ghost and is with his disciples still vntil the end of the worlde As he calleth by his worde so are all ministers of the worde his vicars For hee sendeth them in his steede and preacheth vnto men by them So he saith to the twelue Apostles He that receiueth you receiueth me and to the seuentie disciples He that heareth you heareth me So Paule saith of him selfe Timothee Siluanus and the rest that laboured with him We are embassadours for Christ God as it were beseeching you through vs we pray you in Christes steed be ye reconciled to God First therefore sith the Spirite doth make the word effectuall and Christ hath no vicar as he worketh by his Spirite it foloweth that in naming him selfe the one Pastor who doth bring his sheep and they heare his voice he could imply no vicar For the word doth sound in vaine to the eare vnlesse the Lord doo open the heart with his Spirite and neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the encrease Againe if he had implied their ministerie by whom the shéepe heare his voice and so are brought yet must that belong to many vicars not to one or if to one not to Peter For they who should be brought thereby are the Gentiles and Christ hath brought the Gentiles by many Pastors and teachers not only by the Apostles nor amongst the Apostles by Peter chiefely but by Paule and that through the calling of the holy Ghost and their agréement betwéene them selues Finally if Christ had meant as you distinguish it him selfe first and directly secondarily by cōsequent Peter it must be for his preaching the word to the
would haue me thinkes no ceremonies at all for you saide that the worship of God amongst Christians is spirituall meerely Rainoldes I spake in comparison of the Iewish worship or rather Christ not I. For they are his wordes that God will be worshipped now in spirit and truth Which must néedes be meant of meere spirituall worship sith the reason folowing that God is a spirit doth shew that the Iewes did worship him in spirit too And yet is that spoken in comparison as I saide For Christ him selfe ordeined two principall ceremonies which we call the sacraments his Supper and his Baptisme And the Church-assemblies which are helpes most necessarie for vs to learne and practise that spirituall worship must haue their time when their place where their maner how things to be directed with coomelinesse and order in rites fit to edifie But these are few in number and cléere in signification So few that they are nothing in comparison of the Iewish so cléere that they do liuely represent Christ and are no darke shadowes Now whether that your Popish ceremonies haue kept this fewnes and cléerenes Hart. Perhaps you meane because we haue seuen sacraments and not two onely But the Fathers as namely S. Austin though your men alleage him to the contrary doo name other sacraments beside the Lordes Supper as you call it and Baptisme Rainoldes But S. Austin nameth not your seuen sacraments as you may see by his Confession Hart. Yet he nameth more then your two sacraments And the rest of ours are proued by other Fathers Whereupon the Councell of Trent hath defined that there are seuen sacraments of the new law neither more nor fewer they all are sacraments truly and properly Rainoldes The Fathers doo commonly vse the word sacrament for a mystery or signe of a holy thing And so you may proue seuen and twentie sacraments by them as well as seuen Which is manifest by S. Austin whom you pretend herein most For as he giueth the name of sacrament to mariage to the ordering of ministers to laying on of hands and reconciâ—â—ng of the repentant so he giueth it to Easter and to the Lords day to the sanctifying and instructing of nouices in the faith the feeding the signing the catechizing of them the making of prayers the singing of Psalmes and so forth to other holy rites and actions But as the worde sacrament is taken in a straiter signification to note the visible signes inistuted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithfull which is the sense of it both with you and vs when we speake of sacraments so doth he name those two as principall ones by an excellencie and when there issued blood and water out of Christes side these are the two sacraments saith he of the Church meaning the Lordes supper by blood by water baptisme Yea the Schoolemen them selues who were the first autours that did raise them vp to the precise number of seuen no more nor fewer for you â—â—nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoeuer before a thousand yeares after Christ but the Schoolemen them selues haue shewed that the seuen are not all sacraments if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straitly For neither can mariage so be of the number as Durand proueth well neither confirmation the chrisme of oyle and balme as Bonauenture teacheth And to be short their captaine Alexander of Ales doth auouch expressely that there are onely two principal sacraments which Christ himselfe did institute so that by his confession as we speake of sacraments there are two only But my meaning was not to blame you for seuen I spake of all your ceremonies which are I may say boldly seuentie times seuen Which whether that they be so few and so cléere in comparison of the Iewish as I haue declared and you confesse that Christian ceremonies should be let the learned iudge by comparing of your Church-bookes chiefly the Ceremoniall Pontificall and Missall with the bookes of Moses Let the vnlearned gesse by the store and straungenesse of sacrificing vestiments whereof their common Priests had thrée yours haue sixe their high Priest had eight your Bishops haue fiftéene at least and some sixtéene beside the Popes prerogatiue-robes And so to leaue this matter to their consideration your owne confession yeldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachie For if the spiritual worshipping of God wherewith the Iewes did serue him had ceremonies in number more in signification darker then it hath amongst the Gentiles this kinde of seruing him with fewer ceremonies cléerer is proper to the Gentils might succeede that which was amongst the Iewes Wherefore D. Allens third fourth reasons whereby he would proue that the offering spokeÌ„ of in Malachie the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Masse and not spirituall sacrifices can take no holde against vs. No more then ours could take against you of the contrarie if we should conclude that it must betoken a spirituall worship not outward offeringes on an altar because outward offeringes are common to the Iewes with vs and this is proper to the Gentiles and this should succéede the Iewish worship of God and come in steede of it which no outward offeringes and sacrifices can doo sith they are coopled alwayes to Gods spirituall worship Would you allow these reasons Hart. They are not like to D. Allens But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt For in the iudgement chiefly of heretikes our workes are defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull but that Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices that it cannot be polluted any way by vs or by the worst Priests For here in our testament they can not choose all the best to them selues and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble the lame and the sicke as before in the old because there is now one sacrifice so appointed that it can not be changed so cleane that no worke of ours can distaine it Rainoldes And thinke you M. Hart that the workes of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of because they are defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull Thinke you thus in déede Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion which God graunt you doo with heretikes as you terme vs. For if our workes be defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull chiefly as heretikes iudge then are men iustified by faith not by workes If our workes bee defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull then fulfill we not the law of God perfitly much lesse super-erogate If our works be defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull then are they meritorious of euerlasting death but euerlasting life
Catholike Church without the which there is no saluatioÌ„ nor forgiuenes of sinnes he créepeth vp to the head of the Church eueÌ„ Iesus Christ from Christ the head he slippeth downe by stealth vnto Christs vicar one and the same head as he saith with Christ euen the Pope of Rome whom yet to be the head of the Catholike Church not him selfe would say vnlesse perhaps in a dreame for theÌ„ he shuld be head of the triumphant church which is a part of the Catholike but he would be head of the visible church which he nameth Catholike therby the more easily to deceiue the simple who being astonied and snared with that name the fowler shutteth vp the net and concludeth that euery earthly creature if he will be saued must of necessitie be subiect to the Pope Thus saith Pope Boniface But vnlesse the Pope him selfe and the Fathers of his Councell of Trent being thereto forced by the truth of scripture confesse against them selues that the holy Catholike Church doth not signify the visible company of the Church militant coÌ„sisting of the good and badde mixt together which sense the Papists giue it with their Pope Boniface to the intent they may be kings I will not request you to beleue me in it For in the Catechisme which was set foorth by Pope Pius the fifth according to the decree of the Councell of Trent hauing said that the Church in the Creed doth chiefly signifie the company of the good bad togither they adde that Christ is head of the Church as of his body so that as bodily members haue life from the soule in like sort the faithfull haue from Christs spirit and therefore it is holy because it hath receiued the grace of holines and forgiuenes of sinnes from Christ who sanctifieth washeth it with his blood and it is called Catholike because it is spred in the light of one faith from the east to the west receiuing men of all sortes be they Scythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female conteining all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the ende of the world proâ—essing the true faith being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Pope Pius therefore and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the Church which is specified in the Creede is the body of Christ. Now the scripture teacheth that all the body of Christ is quickned and increased by the holy Ghost as if he were the soule of it But the bad and wicked are neither quickned nor increased Then are they no part of the body of Christ and therfore neither of the Church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councel of Trent affirme that the Church is holy being washed by the blood of Christ indued with grace of holines and with forgiuenes of sinnes Now blessed are they whose sinnes are forgiuen blessed are the cleane in heart for they shall see God But the bad and wicked shall neither see God nor are blessed Therefore neither haue they forgiuenes of sinnes nor are their harts cleane Then are they no part of the church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the church is called Catholike in respect that it conteineth all the faithfull from the first to the last professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ. But the wicked and hypocrites either are not faithfull or if they may be called so yet they professe not the true faith or if they professe it yet they are not built on Christ. For they who are built on Christ are built on a rocke and shall neuer be remoued But the wicked shall be remoued Then are they no part of the church Yet they must néedes be a part of the church if the name of church did signifie the visible church as we call it consisting of the good and bad Wherfore it foloweth thereof that the church mentioned in the Créede betokeneth not the visible church that is the company of good and bad together which it is imagined to do by the builders of the Popes monarchie Thus as Caiaphas in the Gospel although he spake many things amisse against Christ yet being the high Priest that same yeere he saide well in this spéech though ill meant too that it was expedient for them that one man should dye for the people so the Pope and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent being the high Priestes that same yere though they meant yll in saying that the holy catholike church which we beléeue is the company of good and bad mixt together yet being lead and moued by some diuine force to speake better then they meant they added such an exposition that their owne doctrine is ouerthrowen by it the errour of the Councell of Constance is discouered and the truth of the scripture confirmed and established Wherefore I may iustly conclude against the Papists out of the Pope him selfe and the Councell of Trent that all the good and holy men and none but they do make the holy Catholike church But séeing our faith must haue a better ground then humane decrées either of Popes or Councels whose breath is in their nosethrils whose houses are of clay and their foundation is sande therefore let vs stay our selues on that conclusion which I made before on warrant of the holy Ghost who hath spoken to vs by the Apostles and Prophets The holy Catholik Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen And let this suffice for the first Conclusion The second doth folow The church of Rome is not the catholike church nor a sound meÌ„ber of the catholike church Of the which position that we may the better perceiue the drift and truth we must search somewhat déeper and fetch the beginnings of particular churches out of the fountaine whence they flowe God hauing chosen in his eternall purpose the holy catholike church that is all his children to be the heires of his kingdome and to triumph in heauenly glory with him and his elect Angels doth first of all sende them abroade into the earth as it were into a campe there to serue him in warre against the flesh the world the deuill and all the powers of darkenes vnder the banner of Christ that they may come conquerours out of warfare to the triumph and may striue lawfully before they be crowned Whereto that they may be the stronger made and better furnished to endure the labour and hardnes of warfare God begetteth them a new by his word the word working effectually through the holy Ghost as it were by seede and with the same word he nourisheth them as with milke strengtheneth them as with meat armeth them as with a sword of the Spirit and frameth them a shield of faith wherewith they may quench the firie dartes of the wicked one Yea the more
indeede more sound then other some according as the word is more purely preaâ—â—ed and the spirit worketh more effectually but all of them sound But where the word of God either is not preached so that there groweth a famine or is preached corruptly mixt with mans word as it were with leauen or darnell or poyson as they who receiue no foode are like to dye through hunger such as eate bread made of corne and â—â—rnel doo fall into a light frenâ—â—â— so must we néedes iudge that churches whose foode is either none or naught are apt to diseases and neere to their deathe For Amos declareth that men are cast away through want of the word in that he telleth Israel that God will send a famine and a thirst of hearing the word of the Lord which when they shall seeke for to and fro and finde no where it shall come to passe that virgins and young men shall faint with thirst and fall and neuer rise againe Now that the corruption of the worde doth hurt too the Apostle noteth in aduertising Timothee that they who teach other doctrine and consent not to the wholesome wordes of Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines are sick and do dote about noysome folies which edifie not to godly faith in so muâ—h that their word doth fret as a kinde of canker which hauing taken hold of one part of the body doth eate out the next partes by litle litle vntill the whole body at last be cleane consumed Which if it come to passe as it must of necessitie vnlesse the better remedy be spéedily prouided for healing of the body that which was a body doth become a carkasse and is no longer a church it is left destitute of the spirit of God which is the soule thereof and of the soules instrument that is the word of God And this death is threatned by Christ to the Iewes in the old church refusing him their Messias therefore shal the kingdome of God be taken from you and geuen to a nation which shall bring foorth the fruites of it and in the new church to the EphesiaÌ„s hauing left their first loue I wil come against thee shortly wil remoue thy candlestick out of his place except thou amend Which two things foretold by our sauiour Christ were fulfilled in the destruction of the two churches of the church of the Iewes within a few yeares when the gospel was remoued from them to the Gentiles of the church of Ephesus many ages after when hauing béen sick first of sundrie heresies it died a while ago of the plague of Mahomet Thus I haue declared as briefly as I could how particular churches are called members of the catholike how they are ordeyned to learn and practise Goâ—s seruice how the good in them are intermingled with the bad the godly with hypocrites finally what their health is what their diseases be and when they must be counted sound when vnsound Which pointes being marked my paines wil be the lesser in opening the Conclusion the two stemmes whereof on what rootes they grow you perceiue already The church of Rome is not the catholike church it is no sound member of the catholike church The church of Rome is not the catholike church What can be more cléere For the catholike church is the church vniuersall the church of Rome is particular So that in my iudgement the Papistes speake monstrously when they call the Romane church the catholike church and make them all one Some will say perhaps that when they call it catholike they meane it to be sound and of a right beleefe such as doth hold the catholike faith as the ciuil law doth terme the right beléeuers catholike Christians and the church of Afrike is named catholike by Cyprian Yet that is false too For they geue the title of catholike church of Rome that they may put into the heads of the vnskilfull that that is the church out of which there is no saluation But out of the church of Rome there haue beene saued innumerable shall be out of the catholike church not one But let it be graunted that they meane by catholike a church holding the right faith I deny that the church of Rome doth hold the right faith and that is the other part of my Conclusion it is no â—ound member of the catholike church Now when I deny it to be a sound member of the catholike church I meane not that it languisheth of a litle sicknes or disease not dangerous which may seeme rather to haue abated somewhat of exquisite health then haue bereft her of all health For as Galen teacheth of the health of the body that it hath a reasonable bredth as you would say and certaine degrees as it were of perfitnes that they who are able to go about their businesse and doo affaires of life are to be counted whole though they enioy not a most perfit health so in the health of churches I déeme there are certaine degrées of sinceritie that they who doo the functions of spirituall life reasonably well are to be counted â—ound although they attaine not to a most absolute soundnesse And for that cause as we iudge our owne churches to be sound although there remaine some distemper in them by the relikes of those diseases wherewith the contagion of the church of Rome had cast them downe so that they could not yet be recouered fully in like sort we iudge of the churches of Germanie which are troubled with the errour of consubstantiation as it were with the grudging of a litle ague if other wise they holde Christian faith and loue soundly and sincerely But the church of Rome is not distempered with a litle ague such as hindereth not the functions of life greatly but is sicke of a canker or rather of a leprosy or rather of a pestilence in so much that she is past hope of recouery vnlesse our Sauiour Christ the heauenly physician doo giue her wholesome medicins to purge her of pernicious humours And therefore I pronounce that the church of Rome is no sound member of the catholike church Which I will proue by two reasons the one of the causes the other of the effectes whereof from the one diseases doo arise in the other they shew them selues by them both they are surely proued I would to God I might discourse hereof at large according as the weightines of the thinges requireth But we must be content to doo as time wil license vs. You wil pardon me therefore I trust if I runne them ouer somewhat hastily and as they say touch and go I will hold out my finger toward the well head gesse you the lion by his pawes Concerning the causes which doo bréed diseases and sicknesse in the church it is as I haue touched already cléere and certaine that they are either the want of food of Gods word
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
expounde the Latin according to the Hebrue but to alaye the Hebrue according to the Latine Wherefore in that I saide that if we should goe from your authenticall Latin to the originall textes it would be misliked of I doo you no iniurie Yet I mislike it not in your plea for Peter that you take aduantage not of the originall but of a translation nay I like it well Though I like not that which you adde to proue it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Greeke toong dooth signifie a rocke as Cephas in the Syriake and so the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haue one meaning For they haue one meaning not because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a rocke as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a stone as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifieth a stone your owne learned linguists as you call them note and examples thereof are rife But that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any where signifieth a rocke neither doo they shew nor haue other skilfuâ—l of that toong obserued You say that it is so in the Athenian language but you bring no Athenian nor any Grecian else to witnesse it And the French toong which foloweth the Gréeke as in many other words so in this hath the same word you know for a stone and for the name of Peter Wherein there is a print of the true originall meaning of that name in the Gréeke toong But Christ did call him Cephas in the Syriake toong and Cephas you say doth signifie a rocke as Fabricius sheweth But Fabricius sheweth further that Cephas doth signifie a stone also And though he or rather the Iewe whom he citeth reporteth their saying who expounde the name as taken from that worde in signification of a rocke yet hauing mentioned the other of a stone he saith therevpon that so his name is Peter in the Romane toong and in the Italian a stone is called pereda Whereunto I might adde that an other learned writer of the Iewes and auncienter then he doeth likewise say as opening the sense of Peters name that he is called stone But that Christ did meane a stone not a rocke in naming him Cephas your stoutest champion D. Sanders may serue in stéed of many witnesses For he wanting no will to go as far as the boldest and hauing many yeares aduised of the matter durst say no more for Cephas but that it signifieth a stone at the most a great stone euen petra it selfe he doeth expound in this maner Super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam Thou shalt bee the first stone next me of that church which I will build on earth In the which iudgement he doeth deserue the greater credite at your handes because he was contented to hazard his life with the Pope against his Prince in that holy quarell and hauing spent his chiefest studie in the point he had before times expounded it a rocke the which exposition so fit for the Papacy he would haue neuer left had not the truth enforced him to retire from it A thing so much the likelier because when hee laboured first to infect men with the Popes supremacie by the name of rocke and therfore both in the title and course of all his booke did sound the rocke of the church euen then he did expound Cephas and Peter doubtfully a rocke or a stone and yelding the reason why Christ did name him so he mentioned a stone onely because what place a stone hath in holding vp the house which is built vpon it the same should Peter haue in vpholding the frame of Christes militant church Wherefore you must let go your holde of the rocke whereon D. Stapleton doth beast your house is built and be content to lay a stone in stéed of it Let our Sauiour Christ alone be the rocke If you dash your selfe against him therein he will breake you in péeces Hart. It is a disputable point You sée that learned men are of sundrie iudgements in expounding of it some thinking it betokeneth a stone some a rocke Wherefore you can not force me to take the one and leaue the other Rainoldes Not by mens wordes but by the word of God I can For Christ in the Syriake toong did name him Cephas and Cephas in the Gréeke is expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in English signifieth a stone And sure you had done better if as the Gréeke text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Syriake translation Cephas Cephas so you had made it in English stone and stone For Peter and peter doth not expresse the force of the Syriake word Rocke and rocke is strong but the text doth not beare it Stone and stone is fit had you not thought it too slender Now sith you doo presse the Syriake translation to shew thereby the meaning of the Latin as you say you must giue me leaue to tell you that the wordes should be rather Englished after the Syriake thus Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church Hart. Rocke or stone if I should giue you leaue to choose whither of them you list what gaine you thereby Rainoldes The truth which I deale for shall gaine thus much by it that although you construe those words that Christ would build his church vpon Peter for your most aduantage euen as Sanders doth yet is it not proued thereby that Christ did promise him a supreme-headship ouer the Aposâ—les For the church of Christ which is the company of Gods elect and chosen isresembled in Scripture to a materiall temple such as was the temple which Salomon built So as that was called a house the house of prayer in like sort the church is called a house too but a spirituall house to distinguish it from that which house because it must be made of all the godly as it were of stones grounded on Christ by faith though the doctrine of the Apostles therefore Christ is called the chiefe corner stone in respect of the Iewes and Gentiles as of walls which are ioyned in him the foundation in respect of the whole house yea the foundation of foundation as the Prophet termeth him the twelue Apostles laid next vpon Christ are called twelue foundations the faithfull laide on them or rather after them on him are called stones not dead ones such as the temple had but liuing the working and framing of them to this purpose is called building and edifying which is done by preaching of the word of truth coupling them togither betwéene them selues and with Christ that they may grow to bee a holie temple in the Lord for God to dwell in by his spirite Wherefore if the wordes of Christ be
the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most
he preached it almost twentie yeares and was he now afraid least hee had preached falsely Hart. S. Ierom saith not so but that he had not had securitie of preaching it vnlesse it had bene approued by the rest with whom he did confer of it Rainoldes S. Ierom saith not so but that he had not had securitie Then S. Ierom saith so in that he saith not so and you vnsay in one word that which you say in an other For what is it else not to haue securitie of preaching the Gospell then to be afraid either of his doctrine that it is not true or of his fact that it is not lawfull Hart. Why doth the scripture then report of S. Paule that he conferred with them least he should runne or had runne in vaine Rainoldes Because many Christians whom Paule had preached the Gospell too began to be seduced by false Apostles of the Iewes who taught them that except they kept the law of Moses they could not be saued And to winne credit to their hereticall doctrine that the hearers might receiue it the sooner for the authoritie of the teachers they said it was the doctrine of Peter and the rest the chiefe of the Apostles the pillars of the Church As for Paule who taught the contrarie thereof they disgraced him as one that was crept into the Apostleship after theÌ„ and hauing learned the gospell of them which he preached yet dissented froÌ„ them in the preaching of it Which spéeches of seducers if they had beléeued whom Paule either should or had alreadie preached the Gospell vnto then should they haue fallen away with mindes corrupted from the simplicitie that is in Christ and Paule haue lost his labor and runne in vaine as hee speaketh that is to say without profit without the fruit of that hee ran for As Christ complaineth in the Prophet I haue labored in vaine I haue spent my strength in vaine and for nothing because he was not receiued of the Iewes to whom he preched the word of life Wherefore Paule desirous as a carefull husbandman to reape where he had sowne did seeke to roote out the wéedes of false Apostles that did or might hinder the growth of the corne In which consideration hauing shewed first touching his authoritie that he had it not of men nor by man but by God next touching his doctrine that he learned it of Christ not of the Apostles touching his dissension from them he sheweth last that he went and conferred with the chiefe of them euen Iames Peter and Iohn who were accounted to be pillars that they might witnesse their consent and make his preaching to be fruitfull and stoppe the mouthes of false Apostles All this S. Ierom saw and taught in his commentaries on Paule to the Galatians where he aduised better of Paules intent and drift and sifted all the pointes and circumstances of the text The wordes which you stand on were vttered lesse aduisedly by him in an epistle written to S. Austin against whom to iustifie his opinion though false that Peters fault at Antioche was no fault in deede nor Paule reproued him in earnest he saith for the credit of one aboue the other Paule had not had securitie of preaching the Gospell vnlesse that Peter had approued it Wherefore I may iustly speake in his excuse at the least to soften the hardnes of his spéech the same which Basil said in excuse of Gregorie that his wordes were vttered not by way of doctrine but of contention rather to maintaine his quarell against Austin then to deliuer his iudgemeÌ„t of the matter as writing of affection more what he fansied then of discretion what he thought Whereof there appeareth as it were a print euen in his owne wordes For he doth mention Peter by name of whom he did contend with Austin and none of the rest whereas the Scripture nameth no more him then others but first saith in generall of Paule that he conferred with them that were the chiefe and after in particular of Iames Peter and Iohn that they were counted to be pillars Thus neither did Paule conferre with Peter onely but with Iames and Iohn and therefore it proueth no supremâ—cie of Peter more then of Iames and Iohn and although he had yet were it a token by Ieromes own iudgement that Paule was Peters equall not Peter his superior For there is equalitie betweene them saith Ierom who conferre togither I would to God M. Hart if you will needes follow S. Ieroms authoritie yet you would folow him in the best thinges and what you say with error in heate of contention you would amend by truth in iudgement of doctrine But that which is written of giftes and rewards they blind the eies of the wise and peruert the wordes of the iust is no truer in iudges and arbiters of ciuill causes then in you and yours who meddle with the decision of spirituall matters The giftes which partly the pollicie of the Pope hath enterteined you with in his Seminaries and affaires partly the state of the Papacie doth yéelde to such as speake things pleasing him they do blind your eies and peruert your wordes that you thinke darkenes to be light and light darkenes and call euill good and good euill They make you not to see in Paule to the Galatians his direct purpose of ouerthrowing that which you would haue him build They moue you to depraue the circumstaÌ„ces of his words as though he proued him selfe inferior to Peter in that by which he proueth him selfe not inferior They stirre you to transforme his summission into subiection and to abuse the spirite of his apostolike modestie to the raysing vp of the Papall pride and pompe of the supremacie Paule went to see Peter with a desire of knowing him which the Greeke word importeth as they vse saith Chrysostome to speake who go to see great and famous cities You can not sée that Chrysostome saith on the same place that Paule was Peters equall in dignitie to say no more but you take this note of his puffe it vp with the word of Maiesty thereby to make the simple reader to conceaue that Peter was as stately as he to whom that terme is vsed Paule went to Ierusalem from the citie of Damascus not much aboue a hundred miles You say he went so farre so long a iourney as though it had bene no lesse then hence to go to the court of Rome which Bishops do to the Pope not of their owne accord as Paule but enforced thereto by solemne oth not twise in seuentéene yeares as Paule but euery yeare once by them selues or by their messengers vnlesse the Pope dispense with them But of all the rest that passeth that you say hee went to Ierusalem to sée Peter notwithstanding his great affaires ecclesiasticall Here was art by the way to shew that Bishops may neglect
As for the later of calling him to account although your good wéening of the Pope persuadeth you that he would not thinke his state to be abased if the Cardinals should aske him why he dooth this or that yet they who knew him better a great deale then you and loued him so well that they woulde not belie him doo witnesse not onely by word but by writing that he will not bée dealt withall by his inferiours as Peter was by the Apostles I meane not your Canonists in whose glose it goeth for a famous rule that none may say vnto the Pope Syr why do you so But I meane the learnedst and best of your Diuines who setting the Church aboue the Pope in authoritie mislike that the Pope will not be subiect to the Councell Of whom to name one for many Iohn Ferus a Frier of S. Francis order but godlier then the common sort intreating in his Commentaries written on the Actes of the example of Peter how hée was required to render a reason of that which hee had done maketh this note vpon it Peter the Apostle and chiefe of the Apostles is constrained to giue an account to the Church neither dooth he disdaine it because he knew him selfe to be not a Lorde but a minister of the Church The Church is the Spouse of christ and ladie of the house Peter a seruant and minister Wherefore the Church may not onely exact an account of her ministers but also depose thē reiect them altogither if they be not fit So did they of old time very often in Councels But wicked Bishops now will not be reproued no not of the Church nor be ordered by it as though they were Lordes not ministers Therefore they are confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Doo you know what Bishops they be who refuse to bee subiect to the Church Who say they are aboue the Councell Who may iudge all and none may iudge them This Preacher a Preacher of your own not ours dooth call them wicked Bishops The Lord of his mercy make his wordes a prophecy that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Hart. You bring me wordes of Ferus which were not his perhaps but thrust into his commentaries before they came vnto the print by some malitious heretike For Sixtus Senensis saith that there are witnesses of very good credit who auouch that the commentaries of Ferus vpon Matthew were corrupted by heretikes after his death before they were printed Rainoldes Sixtus saith in déede of his Commentaries vpon Matthew that they were corrupted chiefly in that place where Ferus speaketh of the keyes that Christ did promise Peter For there is set downe as a speciall note that Christ saith to Peter I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen hee saith not the keyes of the kingdome of earth These wordes pertaine nothing to an earthly power which yet some endeuour by them to establish affirming that Peter receiued fulnes of power not only in spirituall things but also temporall And after declaration how this is plainely reproued by S. Bernard writing to Pope Eugenius it is added farther Peter receiued the keyes that is to say power not an earthly power that he might giue and take away dominions and kingdomes neither such a power that it should be lawfull for him to doo what hee list as many men dreame but he receaued the power of binding and loosing opening shutting remitting and retaining sinnes neither this at his pleasure but as a minister and seruant doing the wil of his Lord. And these are the words which sauour so strongly of an hereticall spirite that Sixtus saith it is auouched by credible witnesses the cōmentaries of Ferus on Matthew wer corrupted after his death by heretikes chiefly in this place before they wer printed Wherin both the witnesses Sixtus in my iudgement haue shewed thē selues wise For it is better to beare men in hand that heretikes corrupted the commentaries of Ferus chiefely in this place then it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion the Popes supreme power to giue and take away kingdomes is shaken by a man so learned so famous so Catholike as Ferus But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts that they were corrupted also by heretikes Yet some heretikes hand may séeme to haue béene in them chiefely in this place where he doth reproue the arrogancie of the Popes and nameth them wicked Bishops Wherefore it would do well that the ouersight of Sixtus herein were mended by some other Sixtus who might say as much of Ferus on the Actes as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew Perhaps you haue not witnesses that wil auouch this as some auouched that The least matter of a thousand For two or three such as Surius Pontacus and Genebrardus men that haue sold them selues to make lies in the defense of Popery will be readie on the credite of a Lindan or Bolsecke not only to say it but to Chronicle it too Here is al the difficultie that these bookes are printed thus amongst your selues who set them foorth first and we receiue them at your hands A great faulte I know not whether of printers or censours and allowers of bookes to the print who suffer such scandalous places to bée printed Yea to be printed so still specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses haue auouched that heretikes did corrupt them No no M. Hart it is too stale a iest to say that heretikes haue corrupted the commentaries of Ferus For the abomination of the Popes supremacie oppressing both the magistracie of the common wealth and ministerie of the Church is grown to such outrage that if we whom you call heretikes should hold our peace the stones would cry against it Hart. What néedes all this of Ferus Or Sixtus Or Canonistes Or I know not who You called me to the scriptures whē I brought the Fathers and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our owne age Rainoldes Not from the scriptures to them but to the scriptures by them As Christ when the Phariseis sclaundered his workes alleaged the example of their own children therby to make them sée the truth And as he said to them therefore your children shall be your iudges so I say to you therefore your brethren shall be your iudges Hart. I graunt that the Pope doth not in all respectes submit him selfe as Peter to giue account of his dooings both to the Apostles and to inferior Christians But Ferus should haue considered and so must you that the times are not like It were not conuenient for him to do so now Rainoldes So I thought the case is altered You meane by the times the mē who liue
as Plato did excell among the Philosophers for witte and giftes of witte In the which conclusion that you may perceiue what I geue to Peter and refuse it if you mislike it by the giftes of grace I meane all the blessings wherewith the Lord did honour him by excelling in them I meane that he did passe not all the Apostles in them all but euery one in some or other For Iohn the disciple whom the Lord loued who wrote the Gospell so diuinely In the beginning was the worde who sawe by reuelation the things that were to come and wrote them by the spirite of prophecie Iohn excelled Peter in many giftes of grace as Ierom declareth And Paule excelled him farther euen in the chiefest giftes in so much that Austin who geueth excellent grace to Peter dooth geue most excellent grace to Paule and saith that he receiued more grace and laboured more then al the rest of the Apostles and is therefore called the Apostle by an excellencie But Peter of the other side excelled Paule in primacie that hée was chosen first and Iohn in age that he was elder in respect whereof hée was preferred before him by Ieroms opinioÌ„ to be the chief of the Apostles And this is it which Ierom and other Fathers meant by Peters principalitie if you will geue them leaue to be their owne interpreters They did not meane to call him Prince of the Apostles as the Pope desireth to bee Prince of Bishops Hart They did meane to call him the mouth and the top the highest the President and the head of the Apostles For these as I haue shewed are their own wordes by which a preeminence in gouernment is prooued and not in grace onely Rainoldes These in déede come néerer to the point in question because they touch gouernment at the least some of theÌ„ For some as the highest and so the toppe it may be too séeme to haue béene meant rather of preeminence in grace then in gouernment But if you will referre them vnto both it skilleth not For they can betoken no more then the rest And the rest doo signifie although a preeminence in gouernment such as it is yet nothing in comparison of your supremacie This is plaine by that which was agreed betwixt vs when wee spake of the practise of Peters autoritie in the Actes of the Apostles For when I graunted him to be as the Speaker of the Parlament in England or the President of a court of Parlament in Fraunce and shewed the great difference out of a lawier of your owne betweene this preeminence and that supremacie which you claime you reiected the lawier as either ignorant or vnfaithful and refused this préeminence as not importing that supremacie because it hath not soueraine power nay in power is vnder the body of the assembly aboue which it is in a prerogatiue of honor Yet this preeminence is all that is geuen to Peter by the titles of the mouth the head the President of the Apostles Wherefore it is euident that by those titles your Papall supremacie is not geuen to him Hart. It may by your similitudes be probably thoght that some of the rest might note such a preemineÌ„ce in gouernment as you speake of without a souerainty of power But the title of head hath greater strength in it For the Speaker is not called with vs in England the head of the Parlament That title is reserued to the Princ e alone Rainoldes But the President of a Court of Parlament in Fraunce is called head of the Court and Austin or rather he whom you alleadged in the name of Austin expoundeth head by President and the name of head as I haue prooued out of the Scriptures is vsed to note a preeminence of other things not of power much lesse of Princely power only Then what reason is there but Ierom in saying that Peter was appointed head might signifie the preeminence not of a Prince but of a Speaker We geue not in England the name of head vnto the Speaker True Neither geue we the name of Speaker to the Prince But Peter hath them both For hee is called the mouth and head of the Apostles If the one debase him not to the meanenesse of a Speakers function why should the other aduaunce him to the highnesse of a Princes soueraintie Hart. S. Ieroms reason sheweth that hée rather meant a soueraintie as of a Prince For he â—aith that Peter was chosen one amongst the twelue to the intent that a head beeing appointed occasion of schisme might be taken away And how can occasion of schisme be taken away vnlesse that one haue souerain power to gouerne all Rainoldes Why Doo you not thinke that Fraunce appointed Presidents in the Courts of Parlament for the better ordering of them in their dooings that occasion of strife might be taken away What In frée States which are ruled in commoÌ„ not by one Prince but by the best men or by the whole people doo not their stories shew that one had a preeminence as the Consul at Rome the Prouost at Athens though the soueraintie were in many who had like authoritie and power amongst themselues And did they not appoint this one to be the chiefe and head of their company that occasion of strife might be taken away So fared it with Peter amongst the Apostles in gouerning the church whose state if wée compare with the states of common wealths we shall finde that it was an aristocratie not a monarchie as the Philosophers terme it not hauing Peter as a Prince but the Apostles as the best men to gouerne it in common Yet as in all assemblies wherein many méete about affaires of gouernment there must néedes be one for orders sake and peace to beginne to end to moderate the actions so was that preeminence geuen to Peter amongst the Apostles that all things might be done peaceably and orderly And this to be the headship which S. Ierom meant himself in that very place in which he toucheth it dooth shew manifestly For hauing set downe his aduersaries obiection But thou saiest the church is built vpon Peter he answereth thereto Although the same be done in another place on all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the strength of the church is grounded on them equally yet therefore is one chosen amongst the twelue that a head being appointed occasion of schisme may be taken away Of the which sentence the former branch sheweth that by the name of head vsed in the later he could not meane that Peter had a soueraine power ouer the Apostles For all Peters power is comprised in the keies that Christ did promise him and in the building of the church vpon him But all the Apostles receiue the keyes by Ieroms iudgement and the church is builte vpon them
all equally Wherfore by Ieroms iudgement Peter was not ouer the Apostles in power If not in power yet in part of gouernment in what but in that preeminence which I spake of S. Ierom therefore saying that Peter was appointed head of the Apostles did meane that preeminence among the Apostles and not a soueraintie aboue them Hart. The wordes of S. Ierom doo speake somewhat too liberally of the Apostles in that he saith the church is built vpon them all equally And as D. Stapleton noteth very well the distinction touching things writen by the Fathers some by way of doctrine and some of contention is verified in them For here by occasion that he reasoneth against Iouinian who alleaged against the honour of virginitie that Christ preferred Peter a maried man before the rest he doth lessen and extenuate the authority of Peter as farre as truth did giue him leaue making the rest equall to him for the Apostleship yet affirming plainely that he was head of the rest Rainoldes Ierom wrote many things in déed against Iouinian by way of contention rather then of doctrine to the disgrace of marriage In so much that being therefore reproued by some himselfe excuseth it that he did rather striue thē teach and Pammachius a learned gentleman his fréend did suppresse the copies and wished them to be concealed till he had corrected them But neither was this place so reproued by them or excused by him for ought that may be gathered by his apologie nor is it to be noted as sauouring more of heate then truth for the substance of it agreeth with the scriptures Yea Stapleton who couereth it with this distinction confesseth in effect as much at vnawares For he saith that Ierom doth lessen and extenuate the authoritie of Peter as far as truth did giue him leaue Wherof it ensueth that it is no vntrueth to say as Ierom doth that all the Apostles had equall power with Peter The name of head therefore which Ierom giueth him with the same breath can by no meanes import a soueraine power ouer the Apostles Unlesse you will make him so absurd and brainesicke as that he should say Though none of the Apostles were soueraine of the rest but they had equall power all yet was one of them aboue the rest in power and had the souerain-headship of them Hart. Wel. Howsoeuer you handle Ieroms wordes he saith in flat termes that which you denyed And therefore he maketh against you with vs. Rainoldes In what point Or how Hart. You denied that Peter was head of the Apostles Ierom saith he was Peter was not head and Peter was head Is there not a contradiction betwéene your words and his Rainoldes No more then betwéene the wordes of Iohn and Christ Christ said of Iohn Baptist this is Elias Iohn Baptist said of him selfe I am not Elias Iohn Baptist is Elias and Iohn Baptist is not Elias Is there not a contradiction betwéen the words of Christ and Iohn Hart. No. For Christ meant one way and Iohn Baptist an other Christ that he was Elias in spirit as coming in the spirit and power of Elias Iohn Baptist that he was not Elias in person which the Pharisees meant Rainoldes You haue answered well So Ierom meant one way and I an other Ierom that he was head in a preeminence of gouernment as moderating the actions in assemblies of the Apostles I that he was not head in soueraintie of power which the Papists meane And thus to conclude you may see that the Fathers whom you alleage for Peter some giue him a prerogatiue of authoritie some of primacie some of principalitie but none of your supremacie For your supremacie doth consist in power and they giue equall power to Peter with the rest Hart. Equall power I graunt in respect of the Apostleship but not of pastoral charge For Peter was ouer thē in that euen as the Pope is ouer Bishops And so we do expound the words of S. Cyprian S. Ierom S. Chrysostome and other of the Fathers who giue equall power to the Apostles with Peter Rainoldes Yet more of these Colewortes I haue proued alreadie that Peters pastorall charge and his Apostleship is al one and therefore if they were equall to him in the Apostleship the were in pastorall charge too But if no other reason will put you to silence the Popes own authority may force you to it here For in the Cyprian set forth by him at Rome he noteth it to be considered that whereas Cyprian saith The rest of the Apostles had equall power with Peter this must be vnderstood of the equalitie of Apostleship which ceased when the Apostles died and passed not ouer vnto Bishops The drift of which note implieth a distinction of Apostles and Bishops that it is not with Bishops in respect of the Pope as it was with the Apostles in respect of Peter And that doth cary with it a checke of your opinion which maketh the Apostles vnderlings to Peter as Bishops to the Pope Hart. You knowe not who made that note in the Roman Cyprian for there is no mans name to it But if the Pope either made it him selfe or allowed of it being made by others to whom he did commit that charge he set down as a priuate Doctor his owne opinion which they who list may folow But this is my opinion which I haue set downe and to that I stand Rainoldes I am glad you thinke not as the Pope doth at least in one point God graunt that you may come forward in the rest to dissent from him not in this one point alone but in many Howbeit whether he or others made that note they set it forth with greater authoritie and priuilege then as a priuate Doctors fansie Neither is it likely that they would haue graunted so much to the Apostles vnlesse the truth had wroong it from them Let your righteousnes M. Hart if not exceede yet match the righteousnes of Scribes and Pharisees and yéeld to this conclusion which riseth of our conference that Peter was not head of all the Apostles as you do take the name of head Hart. You shall conclude your selfe alone so for me For I do protest that I beléeue it not nor mind to yéeld vnto it The sixth Chapter The two maine groundes on which the supremacie vsurped by the Pope doth lie The former that there should be one Bishop ouer all in earth 1 because Christ said There shall be one flocke and one pastor 2 and among the Iewes there was one iudge and hie Priest The later that the Pope is that one Bishop 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome as some say 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter Both examined and shewed to faile in the proofe of the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES Then wisedome must be content to be iustified of her childrē Howbeit God is able to chaunge your hart in such sort that as
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ„ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ„ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is â—asily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌ„mon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌ„e is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
famous by sundrie of their liues succeeding one another Formosus Boniface Stephen Romanus Theodore Iohn the ninth and a litle after them Christopher and Sergius Of whom their owne friendes and fauorers doo write that they were gone from Peters steppes that they did get his See by briberie that they were moÌ„strous men or rather beastes and monsters Amongst whom the first was accursed by a Pope and made himselfe Pope by periurie The second would but that he was preuented by death the third did repeale the decrées of the first and condemne his actes the fourth condemned the third and iustified the first the fifth did keepe the same race the sixth confirmed it by a Councell the last for all the Councell and the Popes allowing it restored the third to his credit and againe coÌ„demned the first Thus were Peters successors whirled about with giddinesse as Krantzius speaketh of them and the head of the Church was long without a braine A thing verie straunge and such as I thinke hath scarce béene heard off amongst the Barbarians that one of these successours did take vp the carkasse of his predecessour out of his graue brought it into iudgement before a Councell of Bishops spoyled it of his Papall roabes clad it with a lay-mans garmentes endited it arraigned it condemned it cut off thrée fingers ofit and cast it into the streame of Tiber. Yet this Pope might haue béene a Saint of the Popes in comparison of Iohn the twelfth For he did shew more crueltie vpon the bodies of many liuing then the other of one dead and the other excelled not so much in one vice as Iohn the twelfth in all in vngodlinesse vnrighteousnesse intemperance pride in whooredomes adulteriâ—s incestes murders in periuries simonie sacrileges blasphemies and such abominations as I abhorre to mention Not Catiline not Nero not Heliogabalus not the most monstrous wretches that euer liued in Rome came néere vnto him It were incredible that one caraine should haue so much so horrible filth but that his owne Church and the Italian Bishops in a Councell assembled by the Emperour Otho did charge him with these thinges and with thinges more vilanous and outragious then these And himselfe when the Emperour and Councell wrote vnto him that he should come to make his answere made this answere to them and other he would make none that hee cursed them all to hell if they attempted to depriue him as hée heard say they did Luitprandus a deacon of a Church in Italie a man commended for his holines who liued at the same time doth write this storie of Pope Iohn and that with such credit that beside Martinus Tritemius Platina KraÌ„tzius and others men of your owne religion who write the summe of it after him Sigonius an Italian to whom your Pope giueth almost a thousand crownes yearely to reade in one of his Uniuersities though he dissemble much in his Italian historie the thinges that touch the Popes state yet he acknowledgeth this and writeth it somewhatfully Now I hope you will not say of this Pope Pope Iohn the twelfth that perhaps he shewed his faith by his workes or if you would say that he shewed his faith as it may be he did yet you will not say that it was such a faith as was the faith of Peter for which our Sauiour prayed For if you thinke here that notwithstanding all these crimes he might be good after as Peter repeÌ„ted when he had denyed Christ and so his faith did not faile though it did fainte then I must tell you further that Pope Iohn went forwarde as he had begoon and his death was answerable vnto his life While he was committing adulterie he was slaine whether thrust through by some who tooke him in the act or striken by the diuell historians agrée not But Cardinall Turrecremata doth take that as more likely which is more dreadfull Because the life saith he of Pope Iohn was detestable and marueilous offensiue to the Christian people therefore Christ himselfe gaue out the sentence of condemnation against him For while he was abusing a certaine mans wife the Diuell strooke him sodenly and so he died without repentance Hart. What if Pope Iohn and some others of them offended in their liues Yet their faith failed not that faith which Christ spake off For by the name of faith he meant the doctrine of faith which he prayed for Peter and so for his successours that they might kéepe sound and neuer be seduced from it to any heresie No more was Pope Iohn nor any other of the Popes though in their liues they were not all of the best Rainoldes I thought that Christ had meant by the name of faith a liuely Christian faith which imbraceth the promise of the mercie of God which worketh by loue and bringeth forth the fruites of faith which whosoeuer haue they haue assurance of euerlasting life But you thinke belike that he meant a dead faith a faith which they haue of whom it is writen the Diuels beleeue and tremble a faith which Pope Iohn might haue and be a reprobate and dye without repentance and be the heire of death eternall Hart. I say not that Christ meant a dead faith but the right faith that is as I saide the true and Catholike doctrine of the faith of Christ. As the scripture vseth that worde where it is writen that in the later times some shall depart from the faith and shall giue heede to spirites of errour and doctrines of Diuels The doctrines of Diuels are heresies whatsoeuer The faith is the true doctrine set against heresies S. Peâ—er held this faith when he saide Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God From this faith the diuell would haue remoued him But Christ prayed for him that it should not faile And so I say he prayed for the Bishops of Rome that it should faile in none of them Rainoldes But this faith is also a faith which the Deuils may haue and yet tremble a faith which Pope Iohn might haue and be a reprobate and die without repentance and be the heire of death eternall Hart. What if it be so Rainoldes Then Christ praied for Peter that he should neuer lose that faith which faith he might haue kept and yet be lost himselfe euen lost both bodie and soule to euerlasting death Hart. If I should graunt you so much Rainoldes Nay you must néedes graunt it for it is proued by Pope Iohn But why said Christ to Peter Satan hath desired that he may sift you as wheat What is that to sift the disciples as wheat Hart. To sift them as wheaten meale that is to shake out of them all their truth and faithfulnes as flower out of the sieue and leaue nothing within them but branne as it
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
sacrifice spoken of in Malachie is one and therefore betokeneth not spirituall sacrifices the which are as many as there are Christian good workes Hart. Why Because the text of the Prophet Malachie saith that there is offered a cleane oblation or offering as you call it And offering is spoken of one not of many For els he should haue saide offerings not offering Rainoldes So. And doo you thinke that he who said to God sacrifice offering thou art not delited with or as you translate it host and oblation thou wouldest not did meane the Masse by that host Hart. The Masse No. He meant the hostes and oblations of the old law For they are the wordes of the Prophet Dauid spoken of the legall and carnall sacrifices of the Iewes Rainoldes The Iewes Nay the text of the Prophet Dauid saith that God mislyked host and oblation it saith not hostes and oblations Wherefore sith he speaketh of one not of many and the carnall sacrifices of the Iewes were many but the sacrifice of the Masse is one as you say it séemeth he should meane that A point some what dangerous for the host which your Priests lift vp to be adored More dangerous for them who liue by lifting it vp Hart. Our adoration of the host is good in spite of all heretikes and not reproued by the Prophet For although he saith host and oblation thou wouldest not yet is it plaine he meaneth the sacrifices of the Iewes by a figure of spéech in which a part is vsed for the whole and one for many as host and oblation for hostes and oblations Rainoldes Then Allens second reason is not worth a shoobuckle to proue that the sacrifice of the Masse is meant by the oblation in Malachie For the word oblation or offering which he vseth in his owne language is vsed likewise still as of one not as of many through all the olde testament Wherefore if the sacrifices of the Iewes were many which neuerthelesse are called not offerings but offering the same worde applyed to the sacrifices of Christians can not inforce them to be one Howbeit were they one to graunt you that by a supposall yet might that one sacrifice be a spirituall sacrifice and so your Masse no whit the neerer For as the Prophet Esay saith that the Gentiles shal be an offering to the Lord vsing the same worde that the Prophet Malachie so the Apostle Paul exhorteth them with Esay to present their bodies a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God speaking of their sundry sacrifices as one as also in a mysterie we that are many are one body But without supposall the course of the text doth import rather that the Prophet saying there is offered an offering doth meane not one but many by that figure which you touched as by an other figure he saith it is offered meaning it shall be offered For the Lord declaring his detestation of the sacrifices of the Iewish Priests saith that he will not accept an offering at their hand but the Gentiles shall offer to him a cleane offering which he meaneth of the contrarie that he will accept And this he sheweth farther where touching it againe he saith it shall be offered vnto him in righteousnesse and shal be acceptable to him Now the offering that is acceptable to God from the Gentiles in the new testament is all sortes of spirituall sacrifices and good workes By the offering therefore mentioned in Malachie there are many sacrifices meant not one onely Which yet your olde translation maketh more euident opening the meaning of the Hebrew word by terming it sacrifices They shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in righteousenesse Wherefore sith our offering that should please God in the time of the gospell is sacrifices by the iudgement of your old translation which you in no case may refuse and sacrifices can not be meant of the Masse for that is one sacrifice but of spirituall sacrifices it may for they are many as Allens second reason saith you see we must conclude on his owne principles that the cleane offering which Malachie writeth of doth signifie the spirituall sacrifices of Christians and not the sacrifice of the Masse The third and fourth reasons haue greater shew but lesser weight For though it be true that spirituall sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Iewes with vs and therefore may seeme not to be the offering spoken of in Malachie which beside that it is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Iewes and be offered in their steede yet if we marke the difference that the scriptures put betweene the Iewish worship of God in the law and the Christian in the gospel that séeming wil melt as snow before the sunne For in the law of Moses the Iewes to the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ dutie of thankfulnesse which they did owe to God for it might stil be set before them as in a figure shadow were willed to offer beastes without spot blemish in sacrifice with ceremonies thereto annexed and to offer them in the place that God should choose which was the citie of Ierusalem and the sanctuarie that is to say the temple built therein Now Christ in the gospell when that was fulfilled which the temple of Ierusalem and sacrifices did represent shewed that the time of reformation was come and remoued that worship both in respect of the place and of the maner of it For as it was prophecied that he should destroy the citie and the sanctuary and cause the sacrifice and offering to cease so him selfe taught that now the Father would not be worshipped in Ierusalem nor as the Iewes did worship him but he would be worshipped in spirit and truth The Christian worship therefore that did succéede the Iewish doth differ from it in two pointes one that it worshippeth God not in Ierusalem but in all places an other that it worshippeth him in spirit and truth in spirit without the carnall ceremonies rites in truth without the shadowes of the law of Moses The which sort of worship séeing hee requireth of the true worshippers that is of all the Saintes his seruants and in the new testament the Gentiles by the Gospell are called to be Saintes the worship that is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles is the true spirituall worship of God the reasonable seruing of him by godlines and good workes in righteousnes and true holines euen the offering vp of spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. And thus you may sée the weakenes of those cauils which are brought to proue that our spirituall sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachie saith it shall be offered
Rainoldes Alas And sée you not how giddily the Councell doth bring in that reason that because our nature doth neede outward helpes therefore some things should be pronounced softly some aloude For the very chiefest of the outwarde helpes which God hath ordeined to raise our mindes from earth to heauen is the hearing of his word His word is rehersed in the Epistle the Gospell the Canon and other partes of the Masse The Masse you forbid to be saide in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people so that if all were cryed as loude as Baals seruice the people could not vnderstand it Yet not content with that you will a part of it to bee saide with a soft voice that the poore soules may not as much as heare it Wherefore the reason which your Councell maketh for that Massing-rite is this in effect that because the blindenesse and coldnesse of men doth neede to be lightened and warmed by Gods worde which is rehearsed in the Masse therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voyce that they may not heare it part with a lowder but in a strange toong that although they heare it they may not vnderstand it And was there not a mightie spirit of giddines in the Princes of Trent that made them write so droonkenly Yea with a curse to seale it too Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are vttered with a soft voice is to be condemned or that the Masse ought to be celebrated onely in the vulgar toung And great reason why Rainoldes No dout For as the Iewes when they could not iustifie their wilful withstanding of the Sonne of God agréeed that if any man confessed him to be Christ he should be excommunicated so by like reason your Iudaizers of Rome doo banne and curse vs when they cannot iustifie their impudent customes and corruptions against vs. Hart. The customes are Catholike and religious rites which they do establish with the seueritie of the curse Rainoldes Catholike and religious to kéepe the Saintes of God from hearing of Gods word Catholike and religious to haue the Church-seruice in a tongue which the Church the faithfull people vnderstand not Hart. Yea Catholike and religious if you marke the reasons which they giue thereof For of the one they shew that the Church hath ordeined it of the other that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar toung Rainoldes Not the ancient Fathers Why they are cleere for it and yonger Fathers too Yea Fathers both and children I meane the whole Churches of al nations in the old time of many euen till this day as namely of the Syrians Armenians Slauonians Moscouites and Ethiopians Hart. What so euer Churches or Fathers doo or haue doon it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Trent And they being Bishops and Pastours of the Church might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by your owne confessions Rainoldes They might But our confessions withall should haue taught them that as they may prouide for things to be doon with comelines and in order so their rites and ceremonies must be all to edifie Which the Trent-fathers obserued not in this rite of hauing the seruice in a straunge tongue as themselues acknowlege For they write expressely that although the Masse containe great instruction of the faithful people yet the Fathers haue not thought it expedient that it should be soong or said euerie where in the vulgar tongue Whereof this is the meaning to open it in plainer words that the corrupt custome of the Church of Rome praying and reading the scriptures in a straunge tongue in deede doth not edifie yet must stand for policie to keepe their Churches credit For if they should yéeld that they haue erred in one thing men would dout perhaps that they might erre in more And this doo they farther bewray by the other point of vttering the words of consecration secretly that the faithfull may not heare them For in saying that the Church hath ordeined that rite they doo closely graunt that Christ ordeined it not Nay their owne men teach that the example of Christ and the order of his Apostles with the Fathers too is manifest against it Beside that in calling it a rite of the Church of Rome they signifie that other Churches do not vse it no not the Greeke Church And yet against the practise of Churches of Fathers of Apostles and of Christ they say that a dumbe shew which crept in by custome was ordeined by our holy mother the Church and as men resolued to wallow in their owne vomit they curse him whosoeuer he be that shall condemne it Hart. Although Christ we grant did vtter the words of consecration openly and the Apostles and Fathers and other Churches also haue kept the same rite yet the Church of Rome is not to be condemned for taking order to the contrarie For rites may be changed as it shall séeme best to them who gouerne the Church and there was great reason why they should change this to weete least those words so holy and sacred should grow into contempt whiles all in a maner knowing them through common vse would sing them in the streetes and other places not conuenient In the which respect perhaps they thought good also that the Masse and Mattins and all the Church-seruice should rather be in Latin then in the vulgar tongue For of familiar vse there groweth contempt and men are wont to wonder at things which they know not thing◠common are despised Rainoldes A great ouersight of our Sauiour Christ who willed his Apostles to speake that in the light which he had told them in darknes and what they heard in the eare that to preach on the howses For men would despise his gospel if they knew it as they doo meate who haue it And what meant S. Paule to disclose the words of consecration to the Corinthians Yea in their vulgar tongue too And that with instruction to shew foorth th◠Lords death vntill he came as oft as they receiued the sacrament Did he go about to bring the words of consecration and death of Christ into contempt Or was not Innocentius the Pope borne yet of whom he might haue learned that they must be vttered not onely in a strange tongue but also closely and in silence least men if they heare them do know them through vse and sing them in the streetes But wil you sée Your Fathers of the Trent-councel were ouershot a litle when they ordeined that Pastours and all who haue cure of soules should often times expound by them selues or by others somewhat of those things which are read in the Masse
but earthly not spirituall but like the kingdomes of this world presently to come not after to be looked for proper to Israel not common to all nations by vertue of the promises Yea that more is when they had receiued the holy Ghost in greater measure from heauen Peter went not rightly to the truth of the Gospell Iohn would haue worshipped an Angell once or twise the Apostles brethren who were in Iudaea thought that the word of God was not to be preached to the Gentiles But yet al these errours of the Apostles were curable For both they returned to Christ when he was risen againe from death to life and first them selues acknowledged then they taught others the state of his kingdome and Peter being reproued by Paul did yeeld vnto him and Iohn stayed himselfe vpon the Angels admonition and the Apostles with the brethren being taught the truth were glad that God had graunted to the Gentiles also repentance vnto life Wherein that is performed which was promised by Christ when Peter hauing made that worthy profession of faith he said vnto him Thou art Peter and on this stone will I build my church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it The gates of hell shal not preuaile against the church they shall not preuaile They shall bée of strength then against the Church but they shall not preuaile by strength For the elect and chosen of God may take a fall but fall a way they can not Perhaps they build stubble but they build on the foundation And the foundation is Christ Iesus from whom they shall neuer be plucked away For as Fabius saith in Liuie that right doth faint often as being not able well to proue the truth but it neuer dyeth so men who cleaue to right and truth are oft assaulted but they are neuer conquered The sheepe of Christ may go astray in the wildernes but they can not perish The prodigall sonne may go away from his father but he shall come againe The faith of Peter him selfe did sowne as you would say but it failed not Hée was turned away a while from the Lord whom he denied too but he was turned againe vnto him To conclude the faithfull are sorely pressed often by many enemies and mightie but they shall neuer be suppressed Often haue they assaulted mee from my youth vp may Israel now say often haue they assaulted mee from my youth vp but they haue not preuailed against me It is certaine therefore that the elect and chosen though they be made the children of God by adoption yet are subiect to errour Howbeit of the other side they are subiect so that they are freed from the gilt of errour by Christ and are accepted as holy of God because they are in part holy I am blacke ô yee daughters of Ierusalem saith the spowse yet I am comely as the tentes of Kedar yet as the hangings of Salomon Yea farther the bridegrome saith that shee is faire nay that is more the Fairest but the fairest of wemen not simply the fairest as Bernard well noteth but in comparison of wemen but in respect of earthly creatures To teach the Church thereby least shée waxe proude that as long as she liueth in the tabernacle of the body she goeth on towardes but is not yet come to the perfection of fairenes and therefore that she is not I vse S. Bernardes wordes faire altogither though shee be therefore commended for her fairenesse because shee walketh after the spirit not after the flesh But here peraduenture some man will obiect an argument which Papists are euer hammering on that the holy Ghost is promised and giuen by Christ to the elect and the holy Ghost is the Ghost or spirit of holines and truth whereof it may seeme to be well gathered that they can neither erre in doctrine nor in maners To this if it be obiected thus I answere that the holy Ghost hath filled with the vnmeasurable abundance of his grace none but Christ onely of whose fulnes we all receiue Christ in déed hath giuen the holy ghost to the elect but he hath giuen it by measure as I may say with Iohn not to this effect that they may not erre but that they may not erre to death For it is a sentence not onely proued by Philosophers but also knowen to simple men by common experience that whatsoeuer thing is receiued of an other it is receiued according to the capacitie of that which receiueth it We receiue therefore the gifts of the holy Ghost according to the simple capacitie of mans weakenesse not to the maiestie of Gods spirit There is water enough in the maine sea to quench the raging flames that waste a whole towne but a small dish can not containe enough to asswage the fier that burketh one house Men who are begotten in the image and likenes of their father Adam doo flame burne as the Prophet speaketh Though they be borne anew of water and of the spirit yet the water of the spirit dâ—â—th not quite put out all sparkes of faultes and ouersights For there remaineth a strife betwéen the spirit and the flesh euen in the godly and the remnants of the flesh stick in the hart and mind both and now while we liue we know but in part and the power of God is perfitted in weaknes and Ieremie praieth heale me O Lord and I shal be healed and Paul acknowledgeth of himselfe that he is not yet perfitte though labouring hard toward the marke and Iames saith generally concerning the faithfull In many things we all offend and our Sauiour witnesseth that he which is washed hath neede to wash his feete Wherefore though the chosen and elect of God be renued by the holy Ghost yet they are not clensed so in this life from all peruersenes of hart and blindnes of minde that they can neither swarne from dooing their duetie nor be deeeiued in iudgement For the holy Ghost no dout as Christ promised dooth leade theÌ„ into all truth yea I say farther into all holines but so as S. Paul professeth to the Ephesians that he shewed them all the counsell of God Now he shewed them all the counsell of God not absolutely and simply but so farre as was profitable for them The holy Ghost therefore doth lighten the mindes and sanctiâ—â—e the harts of the elect and chosen so farre as is expedient for their saluation But it is expedient for vs to erre in some things that we may geue all glory vnto God alone that knowing what we are we be not high minded that we may be taught to beare ech others burdens that we may worke forth our own saluation with feare that we may learn with Paul that the grace of God is sufficient for vs that we may sharpen our
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
to harten them against all dangers and deceites of enemies with the skill of warfare and sure hope of victorie he bindeth them with sacraments as with bonds of obedience and pledges of his grace he willeth them to call for his helpe in distresses promiseth it if they call for it he appointeth them warlike discipline to kéepe them selues in order and gard them safer from their enemies to be short be deliuereth them the whole trade of warfare opened by himselfe the Generall of the armie and writen in his word To the intent then that all the souldiers of God who be sent at diuers times into diuers countries to serue him in this warfare might learne it practise it he hath ordeined as ciuill assemblies societies for the mainteinance of this life so likewise for the next ecclesiasticall In which ecclesiasticall societies and assemblies it is his will pleasure that there should be captaines to teach and souldiers to learne both of them warriours faithfully to practise and wage the warre of the Lord. And these are called churches but particular churches to distinguish them from the catholike because they are diuers partes of the catholike that is the whole church diuers members of one body diuers bandes of one army Which for the diuers regard of place and time wherein they go to warfare are specified by diuers names In regard of place the church which serued God at Ierusalem is called the church of Ierusalem that which at Samaria the church of Samaria that which at Ephesus the church of Ephesus that which at Rome the church of Rome they which in England in France in Germany are called the English the French the Dutch churches In regard of time wée say the Iewish church in the dayes of Moses of Dauid of Ezekias the Roman vnder Nero Constantine Boniface the English in King Henries raigne King Edwardes Queene Maries or how soeuer els the difference of times be noted Now the rule of reason and honestie would that euery one of these churches ordeined by God to that end should bring foorth the children of God as a mother yeld dutifull honour to God as a spouse and fight the spirituall battailes of God as a valiant and faithfull army But the deuill the enemy of the chosen woman in nature a Satan in subtletie a serpent in fiercenes a dragon which furiously pursueth the woman her seede soweth rares among the wheate in the field of the Lord that is to say he mingleth his souldiors with the souldiours of God in the campe and amongst the godly he foysteth in hypocrites that they being felow-souldiors in shew but traitours in déede may corrupt the army And him selfe prouoketh the faithfull to reuolt from God by all his practises open and secret force and fraude some time by fyer and sword of tyrantes some time by baites of pleasures and wealth some time by the pretense of religion and charitie By the which meanes he procureth often partly through the craft and cunning of hypocrites chiefly when they are made captaines of some band partly through the frailtie and infirmitie of the elect whom flesh and blood doo weaken that the church which is billed to the warfare of Christ knoweth not or careth not for the trade of warfare and serueth perhaps vnder her captaines banner but retchlessely and loosely perhaps is betrayed to the enemy by her watchmen while either they doo fall a sleepe or deale falsely And so commeth that to passe at the length which the Prophets lament in the church of the Iewes too many churches since Christes time haue felt that the church which should be a mother is a stepmother shée whose faith is plight to Christ becometh an adulteresse bands of souldiers breaking their promise yea their oth doo rebell against the Highest So the churches of Galatia when they had beléeued the Gospell of Christ and their names were billed by their owne consent to serue in his warres were remoued away by such as troubled them to an other Gospell So S. Paul feareth for the Church of Corinth least as the serpent beguiled Eue through his suttletie so their minds should be corrupted and seduced from the simplicitie that is in Christ. So Christ him selfe teacheth vs that the church of Pergamus was stayned with the filth of the Nicolaitans that the church of Laodicea was blind naked luke-warme neither hot nor cold that the church of Sardis was in part dead in part readie to dye though aliue in part The assemblies therefore of the churches militant called visible churches which doo containe the good togither with the bad the chosen with the reprobate the faithfull with the treacherous the holy with the hypocrites chaffe with corne tares with wheate wooden and earthen vessels with vessels of gold and siluer some of them for honour and some vnto dishonour I say these visible churches may doo their dutie faintly may leaue it altogither vndoon may be discharged of their oth and dismissed from souldiers seruice they may be sicke of lesser diseases and infirmities they may be of a deadly pestilence they may lose the spirit of Christ and so dye Furthermore to make it easier to be séene what churches ought to be accounted dead what churches sicke what churches whole and sound we haue to consider the causes of death of sicknesse and of health The causes of these things do come in mens bodies as Physicians teach partly from the seede that wee are begotten of partly from the foode wherewith wee are nourished Whereof the one appeereth in sicknesse and diseases that come by inheritance such as are deriued from the parents to the children the other as it hath a great force in all men so experience sheweth that it hath greatest force in armies For the souldiors who serued Marcus Antonius being faine to eate rootes for want of corne fell vpon an herb which brought them first to madnesse and afterward to death and Vegetius a writer of the trade of warfare geuing charge that souldiers drinke not of marish waters saith that naughty water is like vnto poyson and doth breede the plague in them who drinke of it Not vnlike is the case of spirituall death diseases and health in the bodies of Churches For they doo either liue in pâ—rfit good health or fall into sicknes or come to their death according to the nature of their seede and foode Now the seede whereof and foode with the which they are wont and ought to be begotten anew and nourished is the word of God as S. Peter witnesseth preached by the seruants and ministers of Christ. Therefore in what Churches the ministers doo preach the word of God pure sincere and vncorrupt that it may bréede good iuyce and blood in them through the inward woorking of the holy Ghost those churches must we count to be â—ound and whole some of them
mouth expoundeth it of the Pope The Councell then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one doth it not condemne this sense of the scripture geueÌ„ by the Fathers because it is against the sense of their Church Sure it bindeth not the Papistes to maintaine it Or els D. Stapleton I trust should be censured for placing the Pope in the one Pastours seate Wherefore if they who holde not the senses that the Fathers geue of the scriptures be the false Church as he teacheth vs the false Church and the Church of Rome may claime kinred And thus much of the Doctor The Licentiate foloweth him in the same steppes reprouing a speech of mine touching Cyprian Whose praise of the Romans that vnfaithfulnesse cannot haue accesse to theÌ„ being stretched by Sanders to proue that the Church of Rome cannot erre I hauing shewed the contrarie by scripture did adde What and was Cyprian of an other minde Pardon me ô Cyprian I would beleeue thee gladly but that beleeuing thee I should not beleeue the word of God Hereon M. Martin to aduauntage his cause first abuseth Cyprian saying that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith Which he affirmeth not But whereas the Nouatian heretikes at Carthage had made themselues there a Bishop in schisme and to get him credite with the Church of Rome had writen thither falsly that he was allowed by fiue tweÌ„tie Bishops Cyprian to meete with their falshood and treacherie saith that it could not finde credit with the Romans who being faithfull men would not giue eare to faithlesse lyers Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deede be deceiued by false reportes of wicked ympes for euen there he noteth they might be a while as hee did trie both then and after but to stirre them vp to beware of heretikes by praising them as wary Wherfore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith as M. Martin threapeth on him Yet because he might be supposed to haue thought it at least by a consequent for if they could not erre in that much lesse in faith therefore I contenting my selfe with a peremptorie exception against it sayd that if he thought it he must pardon me for not beleeuing him the word of God gainsaying it And this doth M. Martin reproue both for that wherevpon I spake it and for my kind of speeche That wherevpon I spake it is he sayth that euery youth among vs vpon confidence of his spirit will controll not onely one but all the Fathers consenting together if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth In which wordes by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him For I touched the credite of no more of them then the Papistes grant themselues may be touched Nor controlled I ought vpon confidence of my spirite but of the spirite of God because it was against not that which I imagined but knew to be the truth My kind of speeche he noteth for being very fine and figuratiue as I thought As I thought did M. Martin see my hart If not hee might haue kept that thought within himselfe For in truth to open it because he presseth me so farre I thought in that figure Paerdon me ô Cyprian to imitate a like kind of speeche in S. Austin Pardon me ô Paule What M. Martin thought wheÌ„ herevpon he matched me with vaine foolish youths himselfe hath declared But it would better haue beseemed his age to haue acknowledged rather the truth which I proued then haue reproued my kind of speech For although I be a vaine and foolish youth who spake so of Cyprian yet S. Paule was not a vaine and foolish Apostle whose doctrin I maintayned in it These are good Christian reader the faultes of my Conclusions al that are noted by Stapleton Martin as farre as I know If they or any other haue touched ought else which I haue not lighted on I will not be ashamed vpoÌ„ notice of it to bring it forth my selfe and answere it in iudgement For I haue bene so carefull of true and faithfull dealing as well in the Conclusions as in the Conference with M. Hart God is my record that if mine aduersaries should write a booke against me I would beare it vpoÌ„ my shoulder bind it as a crowne vnto me The bolder I am to coÌ„mend them both to thy vpright iudgement beseeching the Father of lights for his mercies sake in Iesu Christ to blesse thee with the grace of his holy spirit that thou maist grow in knowledge in faith in hope in loue and enioy the blessings prepared for the chosen who seeke and serue him Psal. 119.18 Open myne eyes O Lord that I may see wonderfull thinges out of thy law LONDON Printed by Iohn Wolfe for George Bishop 1584. a 1. Sam. 19 2â— 2. King 2.5 4.8 b Reue. 1â— â— c Act. 6. ver 9. d ver 14. e ver 11. f ver 13. g Act. 7.2 h Act. 1.1 i Luk. 1.3 〈◊〉 23 1â— l Ezek. 47.12 m Gen. 3.9 n Psal. 6â— â—â— o 1. Tiâ— â—â— * In the seueâ—th Chapter and the seuenth Diuision a Rom. 10. â— b Rom. 9.3 c Rom. 10.2 d Act. 22.3 e Gal. â— 1 f Rom. 10.4 g Allen in the Apologie of the English Seminariâ—s chapt 6. h chapt 2. i chapt 3. k chapt 1. 6. l chapt 5. m chapt 1. 5. n chapt 1. 4. * Esai 9.16 o Allen in hiâ— Apologie chapt 5. p â—heologiâ—â— Miniâ—â—ri ecclesiaâ—um ditioniâ— Casimiri in Admonitione de liâ—ro Concordâ—â— cap. 12. q Concertat ecclesiâ—e Cathoâ—licae in Anglia aduersus Caluin Puritan In epistola Lucae Kyrby Apologia Martyrum 1 Quamuis doctissimus illius ordinis 2 Tanto in doctiorem se esse ostendit 3 Egregium Christi Athleâ—am 4 Sanctum sacerdotem 5 Sacrae Theologiae Baccalau reum 6 Firmiores egisse radices in fideâ— fundamentis 7 Doctrina esse solidiori 8 Ministrum synagogâ—e Anglicanae non vulgarem 9 Re insecta vnde venit â—ecessit r Allen in hiâ—â—pologie The nâ—â—ration oâ— tâ—e English 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 s Dan. 1. ver â— t ver 4 u ver â— x Allens Apoloâ—giâ— chapt 3. y chapt 2. z chapt 6. a Dan. 1. ver 7. 8. b ver 12. ver 4. 19. ver 3. e Guicâ—iardin hist. Ital. lib. 11 f lib. â—â— g Allens Apologic chapt 6 h Genebrard Chronogr lib. 4. in aâ—pend i The narration of the English Semin in Rom. k Gen. 3.6 l Esai 19.18 m 2. Cor. 11. ver 13. n ver 22. o The â—arration of the English Semin in Rome p 2. Cor. 11. â—â— q Iob. 1.7 2.2 r 1. King 11.10 s Dan. 1.
my worke-fellowes vnto the kingdome of God which haue bene a comfort to me at my first answering no man assisted me but all forsooke me I pray God it bee not laid vnto their charge Of the which reasons though some are but probable yet some are sure proofes that Peters continuance at Rome was not such as is reported by Eusebius And this is so manifest that to say nothing of auncienter writers who to make the scriptures agrée somewhat better with his fiue and twentie yeares abode at Rome brought him thither later and gaue him longer time of life Onuphrius Panuinius a Frier of your owne most deuout to the Pope most skilfull in antiquities and stories of the Church acknowledgeth and confirmeth it For in the discourses of his Annotations on Platina printed at Venice afterward at Coolein it is most cleere saith he and surely known by the Actes of the Apostles and Pauls epistle to the Galatians that for nine yeares after Christes death vntill the second yeare of the raigne of Claudius Peter neuer went out of Iewry Wherfore if he came to Rome at that time as it is agreed amongst all autours that he did it followeth of necessitie that hee did not sit seuen yeares at Antioche before he came thither but that his sitting at Antioche was some other time Which thing I haue resolued on thus by the testimonie of most auncient writers He did come to Rome the second yere of Claudius From which time there are to the time of his death about fiue and twentie yeares Wherin although the auncient writers do say that he sate at Rome yet doth it not folow thereof that he abode still in the citie For in the fourth yeare after his comming thither he returned to Ierusalem and there was present at the Councell of the Apostles Thence he went to Antioche and there continued seuen yeares vntil that Nero was Emperour In the beginning of whose raigne he came againe to Rome where hee repaired the Romane church which was decaying And after that when hee had traueiled almost throughout al Europe he returned to Rome in the last yeare of the raigne of Nero and there was put to death This is the confessioÌ„ of your owne Onuphrius made perhaps against the heare as I may terme it but the light of truth and scripture forced him to it Wherby you may perceiue that when Eusebius wrote that Peter sate first seuen yeares at Antioch and fiue and twentie at Rome after that befell to him which Thucydides saith of the old stories of the Grecians men receyue reportes of thinges done before them from hand to hand one from another without examining trying them Some through a desire as it is likely of honouring the Sees of Antioche Rome hearing that S. Peter had preached in them both deuised that he sate seuen yeares in the one and fiue and twentie in the other Eusebius fell vpon it and wrote it in his Chronicle without farther tryall But if he had tryed it by the touchstone of scripture hée would haue cast it off as counterfeite Which I thinke the rather because in his storie he mentioneth the coming of Peter to Rome as out of Iurie not from Antioche for his first coming thether in the time of Claudius and for his coming thither againe in Neros time he sheweth out of Origen that it was towarde his end wheÌ„ he had preached the gospell to the Iewes in Pontus Galatia Cappadocia Asia and Bithynia Wherefore sith Eusebius doth in his storie dissent from his Chronicle and in his Chronicle dissent from the scripture you must not blame me if I require a surer proofe then his worde that Peter was Bishoppe of the Citie of Rome Hart. To talke about the yeares of Peters coming to Rome or his continuance there I am not disposed I leaue it to them who list to search antiquities But that he was in Rome it is a thing vndoubted the scripture doth witnesse it For in the first epistle of his the fifth chapter the Church saith he saluteth you that is in Babylon coelect and Marke my sonne Where your Protestants shew them selues as in all places that doo make against them to be most vnhonest and partiall handlers of Gods worde The auncient Fathers namely S. Ierom Eusebius Oecumenius and many moe agrée that Rome is meant by the worde Babylon here also as in the Apocalypse saying plainely that S. Peter wrote this epistle at Rome which is called Babylon for the resemblance it had to Babylon that great citie in Chaldaea where the Iewes were captiues for magnificence monarchie resort and confusion of all peoples and tongues and for that it was before Christ and long after the seate of all Ethnike superstition and idolatry the slâ—ughter-house of the Apostles other Christian men the heathâ— Emperours then kéeping their chief residence there This being most plaine consonant to that which foloweth of S. Marke whom all the ecclesiasticall histories agree to haue béene Peters scholer at Rome that he there wrote his gospell yet you fearing hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Rome deny that euer he was there or that this epistle was writen there or that Babylon doth here signifie Rome But you say that Peter wrote this epistle at Babylon in Chaldaea though you neuer read either in scriptures or other holy or prophane history that hee was euer in that citie But sée your shamelesse partialitie Here Babylon say you is not taken for Rome because it would folow that Peter was at Rome and so forth But in the Apocalypse where all euill is spoken of Babylon there you will haue it signifie nothing else but Rome and the Romane church also not as the Fathers interprete it the temporall state of the heathen Empire there So do you folow in euery word no other thing but the aduantage of your own heresie Which is most notorious by this that you hold that Peter was neueâ— at Rome Wherein you passe your selues in impudencie For it is against all the ecclesiasticall histories all the Fathers Gréeke and Latin Theodoret Prosper S. Leo S. Austin Orosius S. Chrysostome S. Epiphanius Prudentius Optatus S. Ambrose S. Ierom Lactantius Eusebius S. Athanasius S. Cyprian Tertullian Origen Irenaeus Hegesippus Caius and Papias the Apostles owne scholers and Dionysius the Bishop of Corinth Ignatius the holy councell of Chalcedon and many others Yea Peter him selfe according to the iudgement of the Fathers as I haue shewed confesseth that he was at Rome calling it Babylon Rainoldes Here is a gréeuous crime wherewith you charge our Protestants of shamelesse partialitie But whether shew them selues more partiall and vnhonest handlers of Gods word our Protestants or your Papistes you are too partiall
M. Hart to iudge There is a iust iudge who will reueale it in that day before the eies of all men and in the meane season he doth reueale it dayly to them whom he maketh wise to trie spirites to discerne the truth from errour As for this particular wherein we séeme to you most vnhonest and partiall that in Peters epistle we take the word Babylon properly for the citie of that name in Chaldaea and in the Reuelation wee say that it signifieth Rome figuratiuely we do not this for any aduantage of heresie as you falsely charge vs but in sinceritie before God For in the ReuelatioÌ„ in which there are as many mysteries as wordes and wordes applyed commonly to allegories and figures Rome might be fitly meant by the name of Babylon And that it was so it apperéeth by the circumstances if not of the seuen hils wheron Rome was built and Ierom gathereth it thereof yet of the great citie which raigneth ouer the kinges of the earth which in S. Iohns time was Rome the Fathers so interprete it you say it and subscribe vnto it But in all the rest of the new Testament where things are plainely spoken off it siâ—teth most with reason that the word Babylon be taken in his proper meaning the text doth force it in other places and in that epistle of Peter it is the likelier because the like spéeches in superscriptions in salutations in dates of epistles are elsewhere meant simply In the Reuelation the great citie is called spiritually Sodom In Peters epistle we take the name of Sodom properly Is it partialitie in vs to take it so Or were it not a folly in you to reproue it But this is the matter belike which pincheth you that in the ReuelatioÌ„ where all euill is spoken of Babylon we will haue it signifie nothing else but Rome and the Romane Church also not the temporall state of the heathen Empire there as the Fathers interprete it The Fathers then interprete it of Rome you confesse If you condemne vs for interpreting it so you must condemne them with vs. If you say that we do not therein as they because we expound it of nothing els but Rome and they not so you slaunder vs. For some of vs expound it of the citie of the Deuill that is the societie and companie of all the wicked as some of them do And what doth it aduantage you or your quarell if as by Ierusalem is meant the citie of God that is the societie and companie of all the faithfull so Rome an other Babylon doo note the Deuils citie as a figure and sampler of it For in this sort also will Babylon be Rome stil. Wherein that you may learne the lesse to carpe at vs hearken to your Iesuit who hauing shewed that the whoore which sitteth on the seuen hils is in some mens iudgment the citie of the Deuil which often times is called Babylon and set against Ierusalem the citie of God that is the Church but in my iudgement saith he it is beter to vnderstand the citie of Rome by the whoore as Tertullian and Ierom doo To whom he might haue added sundry of the Grecians and S. Austin also But they interpret it you say of the temporall state not ecclesiasticall of the Romane Empire not of the Romane Church as we doo No maruaile For in their â—aies the Church did differ from the Empire the Empire wicked Church godly In ours it is not so The state ecclesiasticall is chaunged into the temporall the Church hath swallowed vp the Empire and what the Romane Empire was that now the Roman Popedo e is Wherefore when we apply the mysterie of Babylon to the Church of Rome we apply it still as the Fathers did to the temporall state if not of an heathen Empire there yet of a Christian waxing heathnish There we sée a purple whoore sitting vpon many waters droonken with the blood of Saintes and with the blood of Christs martyrs hauing a golden cuppe in her hand full of abominations and filthines of her whooredome Sanders the greatest patron of the Popes monarchie doth proue out of Tertullian that where there is the greatnesse of the kingly citie where the pride of the Empire where the persecution of Christians doth rage there is Babylon no doubt there is the great citie there is that woman which sitteth vpon peoples nations and languages with whom the kinges of the earth doo commit whooredom and the inhabitants of the earth are droonken with the wine of her whooredome Now Rome in these respects was Babylon as he construeth it while the heathen Emperours obtained the temporall state there not since the Popes haue had it But let the states of the Popedome and of the Empire be compared and the stories of the Emperours who raigned there before the Popes and of the Popes who haue succéeded them be examined and if it be not found that the Papall state hath matched the Imperiall in greatnes of power in pride of dominion in persecuting of Christians then let vs be iudged to varie from the Fathers in giuing Rome the name of Babylon Els are we cleered by verdit of Sanders from that wherewith you charge vs of expounding it to the aduantage of our heresie and you must pronounce that we deale vprightly with the name of Babylon in the Reuelation As for our vsage of it in the epistle of Peter the reasons which you bring to prooue a fault therein may serue for our acquitall You say that we neuer read either in scriptures or other holy or prophane history that Peter was euer in the citie of Chaldaea which is named Babylon A simple proofe if we had not For the Apostles being sent to al nations were in many cities wherein we neuer read they were And yet we haue read in Methodius an ancient bishop and historian alleaged by Marianus Scotus that Peter did preach the gospell in Babylon that is either the citie or at least the countrie and where they preached in the countrie they did it in the chiefe and mother-citie commonly But the ancient Fathers namely S. Ierom Eusebius Oecumenius many moe agree that Peter meant Rome by the word Babylon They deliuer it I graunt but they receyued it from Papias a man though you commend him for the Apostles owne scholer yet of verie small iudgement who mistaking the meaning of the Apostles spèeches in a matter of greater weight deceyued many Fathers that followed him for his antiquitie as both Eusebius and Ierom doo report of him The lesse strange it is if they beléeued him and others them in this point of no such importance But it is consonant to that which followeth of Marke whom all the ecclesiastical histories agree to haue beene Peters scholer at Rome and that he there wrote his gospel And this doth come