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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A43724	A continuation of The dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker wherein the truth of those things objected against them in the first part, are fully confirm'd : together with a further account of their perilous and pernitious errors concerning the person of Christ, His satisfaction, justification, sanctification, the ministry, and immediate motions are in this second part, cleerly and plainly represented out of the writings of some of their principal, and most approved leaders / published for the common information of such as either really are, or may be, in danger of being insnared and intangled by them by Thomas Hicks.	Hicks, Thomas, 17th cent.	1673 (1673)	Wing H1919; ESTC R21822	53,818	100

men and women openly in the Streets one of those things And is the casting off the duties of Relations each to other yea the relation itself another As I knew one of your Friends was moved to ramble about the Countrey and neglect her Family at home and once when she return'd it was upon her heart to signifie to her Husband an honest sober and religious man but no Quaker That if he were free he might take him another woman I confess these things are not to be found in the Scriptures not so much as by consequence Do you call this a living in and walking after the Spirit Is it not rather a following the conduct of the Prince of the power of the air Again what if one of you be moved to door speak any thing which others of you are not satisfied in must they obey that motion Quak. That single person must deny his motion wherein it differs from the judgment of the Body that is to say the Court which hath a true sense feeling and understanding of motions visions revelations and doctrines therefore 't is safest to make her the touchstone in all things relating unto God Spir of the Hat p. 21. Chr. Is not this as much as to say that the power or spirit in and with the body is the only infallible and unerring rule and not the power or measure as you sometimes call it in any individual person are you now after all your clamours about the sufficiency of the light or power in every man to be the rule come to set up the light and spirit in the body above it Quak. Either there is such a thing as a Christian-society sometimes call'd a visible body or there is not If there be then this Church either hath power or not if no power then no Church If a Body or Church then there must be a power within it self to determine Penns Spirit of Alexander p. 9. Chr. For Christians to plead this who own the Scriptures for their rule and not the meer light within the argument may safely be allowed But for you who tell us That is no command to me which is a command to another and every one must act from their own command and the light in every man is his only unerring rule I see not how you can urge this and yet consist with your selves But in case one should forbear what the Body would have done or do what they forbid what then Quak. We abhor renounce and rebuke with severity that rude imagination of the Hat on in publick Prayer In this case the Body may admonish and if the Party remain tenacious disown him as a Disputer about needless questions and one that is gone out of the compleat union of the Body and exercised by another Spirit Penns Spirit of Alex. p. 4. 9. Chr. Though others may yet you cannot if you will agree with your selves stand by this For will you say What a man doth without an inward motion is accursed and yet will you disown that man for not doing what he is not moved unto will you say There continually attends you that spirit that immediately informs you of your words thoughts and deeds and gives you true directions what to do and what to leave undone Penns Apol. p. 138. And now talk of a Body that hath power in it self to determine do you not herein render your selves justly ridiculous and contemptible in opposing that in others which yet you contend for amongst your selves And do you think this is the way to gain credit with any whilst you play fast and loose affirm and deny at pleasure how can you impose that on another as his duty which the light in him discovers not so to be And how dare you deny such and call them unruly Beasts and Ranting spirits who meerly for the want of an inward motion forbear such a practice How you can do this your opinion that the light within is the only rule being considered I cannot understand If you will say that there is a known rule and standard to walk by and this is not the meer light in every man but another thing to which that light must yield and also tell us what that rule is whether the Scriptures or the Power in the body If you say either of these you deny your first principle If you affirm the latter onely then you do but run from one extream to another yea hopp out of the Frying-pan into the fire If to take up a Command from the Scriptures be by you accounted witchcraft pray what shall we call a taking up a command from the Body But since you seem to be so zealous for the Ministry will you be pleased to acquaint us what is the true Ministery Qu. In the new Covenant God is the teacher of his people himself Immediatly by his Immediate Spirit power and unction within G. Whit. Christ ascend 64. Chr. If so wherefore were Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastours Teachers given and set in the Church for the work of the Ministry And why do you set up a ministry amongst your selves Is it because you are not under the new Covenant If God by his Immediat power and Spirit within be the teacher why do you appoint your Ministers before hand to speak in such a place at such a time And how know you Such a one shall be Immediately moved then and not another instead of him And when you invite others to your silent meetings telling us they will be such How are you assured that those you invite may not be moved to speak in that meeting In a word wherefore do you meet at all will not the power move you unlesse you be at such a meeting None of these things will agree with your position therefore one of your friends was in this so far ingenuous as to acknowledg that your meetings were only and principally to encourage that is to Decoy Trappan and Inveagle others But before leave this question give me leave to ask you Who or What it is that is taught Qu. I am a witness of the most high God a Minister of the word of life commanded by the eternal Spirit into this work for the seeds sake which is not of the world And to the gathering of it into the fold of everlasting peace Edw. Burroughs works p. 106. Chr. Is nothing else taught and to be taught but only this seed Qu. To the mind which is carnal which rules in you the commands of Christ are not given nor can be received Burroughs ibid. 106. The great work of the Ministry is to point hearers to this that is the seed in them G. Keith Im. R. p. 77. 78. Chr. What must we understand by this Seed Qu. That of God in thee and in every man the witness of God in thy Conscience 't is that we speak unto Chr. Is not this seed witness or measure Christ the light in man Qu. It is so The Apostles preached Christ crucifyed every

This is my testimony to this man of God who hath been a blessing to the Lord in his Generation Josiah Coale his Epistle before Edw. Burroughs his Works in Folio Chr. Was this Josiah Coale a real Quaker Quak. He was so Chr. In what respect did the Almighty Power of God live and raign in him and how was he a blessing to the Lord for I must confess I do not well understand the meaning of this testimony Quak. 'T is no matter for answering such cavilling Questions Chr. Who else gives their Testimony to Edw. Burroughs and his Works Quak. These memorable Works of Edw. Burroughs printed for the good of Generations to come 1672. is brought forth for us and our Children and such as are moderate and well affected greater desires hereof could not be in any then in my own particular I having travelled both to answer and serve the truth and the desires of Friends herein Let none condemn the honest plainness and harmless simplicity of any of his first Works here inserted for many are living Witnesses that the Power and Wisdom of God did then appear and shew it self through such plainness and simplicity to the confounding of the wisdom of many that seemed high and lofty And thus dear Friends as the Salvation of our dear Brother Edw. Burroughs according to his desire whilst in the Body I recommend this Volume of his Books being therein the Truths and your Servant Ellis Hooks See the Epistle Dedicatory to the Quakers Chr. Of what use and service do you judge these Works may be to you and to your Children Quak. It may not be unnecessary for Friends and Children to read and peruse these Testimonies Informations and Vindications of Truth where they are in a way of Controversie given forth the reading whereof may be of service to them they being in the light and inspiration of the Almighty from which all Scriptures or Writings that are given forth are profitable to the man of God for his accommodation for though many of you are come to a particular satisfaction in the true Light and know so much of Christ so as to dye for him yet cannot so well dispute for him Though that be necessary and few given up and accomplished for that Service therefore there may be need for more to apply their hearts to wisdom Ellis Hooks ibid. Chr. If written Testimonies and Vindications be profitable to the Man of God for his accommodation to help him to Dispute as you plainly intimate Doth not this interfere with that grand Notion of yours which saith You must do all by the immediate motion of the power within But if the Light and Power which you and your Children have be not sufficient of it self to accomplish you for this Service of Disputation for and vindicating of that you call the Truth why then do you contend so much for its All-sufficiency me-thinks you who pretend to infallibility should be very careful to make one story agree with another and not thus to be taken in different tales to the manifest disparagement both of your selves and Opinions But is this Ellis Hooks a true Quaker Quak. Thou needst not doubt that forasmuch as be was imploy'd in that Service for the collecting and printing these Works of Edw. Burroughs and also allow'd to prefix his Epistle before it And there are others who were and are in the Ministry that hath given their Testimony to this Servant and Prophet of the Lord as thou mayst see in their Epistles before his Works Shall Dayes Moneths and Years wear out thy Name Shall not thy noble and valiant Acts which thou hast wrought through the Power of him that separated thee from the Womb live in Generations to come The Children yet unborn shall have thee in their mouths and thy Works shall testifie of thee in Generations that yet have no Being and shall account thee blessed When I think of thee I am melted into tears of sorrow because of the want that the Inheritance of the Lord hath of thee Francis Howgill As for Edw. Burroughs our dear Brother and Companion in travel suffering and consolation for the everlasting Gospels sake his Testimony lives with us He was a Preacher of Righteousness one who travell'd for the Redemption of the Creature from under the bondage of Corruption The name of this Minister of Righteousness is written in the Lambs Book of Life George Whitehead His name is chronicled in the Lambs Book of Life a righteous Plant a valiant Warrier more then a Conquerer who is dead but yet liveth amongst us and amongst us is alive George Fox Chr. Being well assured from these Testimonies that Edw. Burroughs was an approved Quaker then for the satisfaction of you and others in this Point whether I have feigned a Quaker as Whitehead suggests or made them speak otherwise then in their own proper Dialect I shall transcribe twenty questions which I find printed in the memorable Works of Edw. Burroughs together with the force and import of his Answers to each Question as you will find if you consult his Works in Folio printed 1672. wherein the Spirit and Principles of the Quakers is not a little laid open The questions were propounded as that Book informs me by one Philip Bennet 1. Q. Whether the Word was made Flesh more or oftner then once Quak. In this Quere thou are manifested what thou art where thou art and what spirit thou art of a Reprobate a Child of Darkness In this Quere thy spirit is seen and known in the eternal light thou knowest not what thou askest thy Quere comes from thy dark polluted mind Thou art a stranger to the Life without God in the World the Light condemns thee and all thy generation eternally The Word made Flesh we witness which dwells amongst us and we behold his Glory whereby we witness thee and all thy generation to be in the sorcery and witchcraft the light in thee will tell thee so to which thou must be obedient before thou canst witness the Word made Flesh onc't for thou art darkness it self when thou canst witness the Word made Flesh onc't then thou wilt know whether the Son of God was made of a Woman more or oftner then onc't But thou Dragon that would devour the Man-Child thou the Dragon with thy Angels art cast into the Earth For thy other nineteen Queres thou hast conjured them up in the Black Art out of the bottomless Pit Edw. Burrough's Works in Folio p. 29 30. Chr. Was ever Querist so rudely and uncivilly treated or was ever question thus ridiculously answer'd was this the honest plainness and harmles simplicity of this man and was this his silencing all Opposers Is there any thing in the question to provoke to such Bedlam Rhetorick to call a man Reprobate Child of Darkness a stranger to the Life without God in the World yea and to damn him eternally only for a modest and sober enquiry was this his valour for the Lamb what means

that Righteousness is which is reckoned or accounted to us for our Justification Quak. Art thou of them that imagine a Justification without Sanctification who because the Scriptures faith God justifies the ungodly through Faith they therefore conclude themselves justified in their ungodliness by a fancy which they call Faith Naylors Love to the Lost 50 51. I farther tell thee That Justification by an imputed Righteousness is both irrational irreligious ridiculous and dangerous Pen. Sand. Fo. p. 30 31. Chr. I know of none that hold Justification of persons in their ungodliness this therefore is a wicked slander and not at all to the question We plead not for a Righteousness imputed to overthrow a Righteousness inherent or the exercise of Christian vertues 't is you would separate and divide them not we The question intends this whether the person justified was not at that instant before he was justified guilty in himself Quak. Justification goes not before but is consequential to the mortifying of Lusts and the sanctification of the Soul Again impute or imputing signifies no more in Scripture but to express men really and personally to be what is imputed to them Pen. Sand. Fo. p. 27 29 30. Chr. Doth not this import that a man must be formally just before he be justified for nothing is imputed or reckoned to us according to your reasoning but what is inherent in us I would ask you whether remission of sins be not one part of Justification Quak. I suppose it may Chr. Can one be forgiven that is not guilty it looks like a contradiction to pardon one that is innocent to forgive one that owes nothing certainly he that is pardoned must be a Sinner Rom. 4.5 that is such that were so till justified not such that remain so being justified Qu. God justifies the living and not the dead whilst the Just being dead in trespasses and sins There is no justification where the Just lives not for by that which the Just lives is that by which the creature is justified Naylors Love to the lost 52. Printed 1656. Chr. To talk of the Just being dead in trespasses and sins is no other then your absurd blasphemous and ridiculous canting For by Just we know you mean the seed of God in man which sometimes you call Christ or his appearance gift or measure But is Christ or his Seed or Power in man dead in sins and trespasses what unworthy and vile Creatures are you to suggest such perillous conceits as these and yet pretend to infallibility and perfection by what hath been said I am and presume others may be fully satisfied what kind of Justification you hold Pray let us understand your Opinion of Sanctification what it is Quak. 'T is Christ himself hence we conclude To say Sanctification is imperfect in this life is as much as to say Christ is imperfect but Christ is perfect therefore Sanctification is perfect See then the error and wickedness of this principle that Sanctification is imperfect Edw. Burrough's Works 488. Chr. 'T is true Jesus Christ by his Spirit is the Author and Worker of Sanctification but will it therefore follow that the work of Sanctification in us is Christ himself or that this work is now perfect in all its degrees Quak. Jesus Christ is both the seeds man the seed and also the fruit G. Keith Im. R. p. 77. The Law in the mind is the Spirit of God To say the Law in the mind is imperfect is error in the highest degree this is an abominable corrupt principle of error the new man is perfect peace and perfect sanctification Burroughs Ibid. 488. Chr. How wilt thou prove that Christ is both the Author and the work the seeds-man and the seed and fruit That the Law in the mind is the Spirit it self and Christ himself and that the new man is perfect sanctification that there remains not the least sin either for kind or degree in the person sanctified we will not be imposed upon therefore if you can demonstrate this thing unto us Quak. If the old man the body of sin remain in sanctified persons then none are sanctified at all and such as have the body of sin in them have no part in the Kingdom of God Edw. Burroughs Ibid. 488. Chr. Why then doth the Apostle exhort sanctified persons to put off the old man Col. 3.5 Rom. 13.12 13. And how will you prove your selves to have any part in the Kingdom of God since 't is notorious the body of sin yet remains in the best of you of which your intollerable pride error envy malice railing cursing hypocrisie and wilful lying are sufficient evidences Quak. We deny the old man we are in the meekness truth and simplicity therefore thou suggests nothing but thy own imaginations Chr. You are as we say far from your Neighbours who else will say so of you besides your selves your own Testimony is not sufficient in this ease especially since your Writings Converse and Practise gives the lye to this your pretence and sufficient instances hath in this Discourse been suggested to prove you guilty therefore your denial is an aggravation of your sin and wickedness But to the question doth Sanctification consist in our conformity to the will of God or not Quak. Now thou runs into the many words thy fleshly and imaginary distinctions Chr. When wilt thou forbear these trifling Impertinencies Speak to the point Quak. I have told thee That the Law in the mind is the Spirit of God and that Christ is Sanctification can I speak more plain Chr. If the Law in the mind be the Spirit it self and if Sanctification be Christ himself what must we call obedience to Christ his Law or Spirit If our habitual and actual conformity to the divine Law or Rule be our holiness how can the Spirit it self and Christ himself meerly be it Quak. We deny not but declare That all men ought to be obedient to the light Christ in them Chr. But may this obedience be call'd our holiness you seem to deny it in saying Christ himself is Sanctification and the Law in the mind is the Spirit of God Dost Christ obey himself doth he repent and believe and is his obeying himself in us our holiness If so then whilst you deny an imputed Righteousness in a Scripture sense you maintain a righteousness imputed in an enthusiastical and ridiculous sense But if you will say That obedience to the divine Rule is our holiness then you will contradict your selves And to apply it to you I would ask How it is possible for you to prove your selves sanctified persons that so wilfully and wickedly oppose the rule of duty Did ever any holy man deliberately affirm That is no command to me which is a command to another neither did any of the Saints act by the command which was given to another they every one obey'd his own command Burroughs Ibid. p. 47. Then that Law which forbids Idolatry Adultery Murder Theft and hearing

Geo. Keith Q. If I never be moved to pray c. am I not excused A. Is it of good report for un-inspired men to pray W. Pen. Q. Will you say t is of evil report if they doe A. What thou dost without an inward motion is accursed Edw. Burroughs All those duties that have sin in them had better be let alone Q. If the want of an Inward and Immediate motion will excuse us from duty what signifies the Law which God hath given to man to oblige him thereunto A. That is no command or Law to me which is given to another man Edw. Burrows Q. Are not all men sinless except when they obey not an inward motion A. I have told thee that they who take up a command from the letter are in the witchcraft Ed. Bur. Q. God rules the Stars by his Immediate power they being not capable of being govern'd by any other rule and if God do only govern and rule man by immediate motions wherein doth a Man differ from a Star A. Now thou runs into the imaginations Q. Either God hath given a rule to man or not and this rule is known or 't is not If there be a known rule then either it obligeth at all times or but at some if the former man alwayes sins if he obeys not if the latter assign those times when he is under no rule A. I think not meet to satisfie thy busie mind Q. If inward motions impulses or inspirations be the onely rule to every Individual why do you set up a court amongst your selves to give rules to others A. We being a religious Body have a power within our selves W. Pen Sp. Alex. p. 6. Q. By what rule shall I be assured of that A. We as a believing body have the holy Spirit we know we are of God and the world that withstand our testimony are in the Gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity W. P. ibid. 13. Q. Is not this to justifie what is said of you they that will not believe your sayings you will not spare to censure them but do not you herein apparently set up the Judgment of the Body above the Light within A. We deny that to be Light which opposeth the the Judgment of the body W. P. ibid. 14. The body will have a true sense feeling and understanding of motions visions revelations and doctrines therfore 't is safest to make her the touchstone in all things relating to God Sp. of the Hat p. 21. Q. What safty can there be in relying on such a body that act by no known rule or law A. We have the power And will not such that are in the power do right ibid. Q. By what known rule do you exert your power that so the peccant person may be convinced you do him no wrong A. We as a Body have power to determine therfore we abhor renounce rebuke with all severity that rude imagination of the Hat on in publick Prayer W. Pen Sp. of Alex. p. 4 5. 9. Q. You take that for graunted which is denied how do you make it appear you have such a power A. Thou art angry not that there is a rule but that thou hast no share in it W. Pen. Sp. of Alex. p. 4. Q. Is not this as much as to say that the will and pleasure of the Elders is the rule and not the light within if so what signifies all your contests about the sufficiency of the light in every man A. I have told thee that we know we are of God and they who withstand our Testimony are in the gall of bitterness W. Pen. Q. If your pretences be sufficient to determine other persons why may not the like pretence in them determine you If you urge the Scriptures or primitive practice for your rule you will entangle your selves If you say The body or court is the rule then you set up the Body both above the Scriptures and the light within Will not a little measure of light discover your folly herein I shall proceed to another question Who or what is Jesus Christ A. 'T is God himself W. Pen. 'T is the light in us Nayler and Hubberthorn Q. It is said that Jesus Christ was crucifyed but is it safe to say God himself or the Light within was crucifyed A. Yee have condemned and kill'd the just that is Christ Jesus in their hearts him they crucifyed in his appearance G. Keith Q. Is Christ one thing and his Appearance another A. Yea For Christ as he is and lives in himself cannot be crucifyed but his appearance may G. Keith Q. When the Scriptures speak of Christ crucifyed do they mean onely his Appearance and not Himself and is this meaning solid A. Yea. Q. Why do you speak and write so darkly and doubtfully of the person of Christ A. You are not able to bear what we have to hold forth concerning Him should we deliver what we hold concerning Jesus Christ we should be stoned in the streets Rob. Wastfield Q. What think you of that-Christ who was born at Bethlem and dyed at Jerusalem A. Jesus Christ at Jerusalem a type figure a shaddow that is past away Do you when you rise in the morning think on God do you see God in every creature and in your self think on these things and trouble not your self about Jesus at Jerusalem This was uttered before many credible witnesses by an eminent Quaker Q. Is not Jesus Christ a distinct person without you A. Jesus Christ a person without us is not Scripture-language but the Anthropomorphits and Muggletonians G. Whitehead Q. Is not Christ in person at Gods right hand A. Jesus Christ is at Gods right hand but I cannot believe he hath a personal Being at the right hand of God G. W. Q. What do you intend by Gods right hand A. Christ nor Gods right hand is not to be limited to a remoteness from the Saints G.W. Q. What is the meaning of that text The same Jesus that went away shall in like manner come again Acts 1.10 11. A. I deny he shall come visibly and though it be said in like manner yet every like is not the same G. Whitehead Q. Do not you believe that Christ will come the second time without sin to Salvation A. He is come the second time Q. 'T is true Christ is come by his Spirit but is there not another Coming A. What other Coming wouldst thou have Q. The Scriptures speak of his Coming to judg both the quick and the dead do you beleive this A. Why dost thou trouble thy self about such foolish and silly things Q. Pray answer directly whether you believe Christ shall come to judge the quick and the dead A. I perceive that which troubles thee is the puzling thy self so much in that book the Bible thou wilt never be settled till thou throw away that Book Q. Do you deny the second personal Coming of Christ A. They are like to be deceived who are