heretikes namely the Grecians church all other churches of Asia and Aphrica which vnto this day will not acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawefull Wherefore seeing the Popish church neither hath confuted those that are heretikes in deed nor subdued those whom she counteth to be heretikes if you be a good as your worde you recant The fiueth article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 Againe what Church is that which hath exercised by Christes appointement Discipline vpon offendors in all degrees ONely the Church of Christ by Christes appointement hath exercised true discipline vpon offendors Although by meanes of persecution she could not alwayes practise the same as she would 2 And for that purpose hath continually executed lawes and Canons Ecclesiasticall with Excommunication Degradation suspension and such like THe Church of Christ only hath had lawful authority to exercise discipline but as it is said before she hath not continually practised the same because she could not being hindered by persecution and dispersion Concerning excommunication she hath practised it according to the word of God and against such offendors as the scripture iudgeth worthy of that seuere punishment As for degradation and suspension it may be doubted what you meane by them If you vnderstand by degradation that such persons as the Church hath tried vnmeet either for doctrine or manners to execute the office of preaching and ministring the sacraments she hath displaced and reiected from that charge she hath also practised drgradation And if you meane by suspension that when the accusation of a mans doctrine or life was vncerteine that she hath willed him to cease from executing his office vntill his cause were tried either good or euill she hath also vsed suspension but if by degradation and suspension you meane those foolish and wicked ceremonies which the popish church now vseth and so termeth I deny that euer the true Church of Christ had to do with such degradations and suspensions 3 Proue me this geere to procede from Protestants or from any other Church than the Catholike and I recant IT is proued before that true discipline belongeth to the true Church wherof we are a part which Church is sufficiently proued to be the spouse of Christ because she is ruled in all thinges by his onely voice And therefore all congregations of heretikes which departe from the true worde of God though they take vpon them to exercise discipline by excommunication or otherwise it is not to be regarded and lest of all the Popish church where remaineth nothing of discipline and excommunication but the very names for what call you popish discipline is not that it which they vse in Lent whisking men on the heades and women on the handes with white roddes which they them selues call discipline Or is it the seuere punishment that they vse against offendors by excommunication suspension interdighting c. First it is manifest they haue no excommunication by Christes appointment for neither it is executed by the persons appointed by Gods worde nor against such offendors only as God his word appointeth for wheras our Sauiour Christ appointeth the order of that discipline to the Congregation of such as are wise godly and carefull of mens health which first shal labor by fatherly admonition and wholesome exhortation to bring the offendors to repentance whome if they refuse to heare they are to be reputed for hethens and publicanes the Pope contrariwise referreth the same to profane and vnreligious officers which are more desirous to gaine the fees of absolution than by bringing the party to repentance to saue him from excommunication Moreouer whereas by Gods worde excommunication is the last and most greuous punishment that the Church can enioyne against any of whom there is any hope of saluation and therefore ought not to be practised but for haynous offences the Popish church maketh it serue for euery trifling matter yea for pettie debts and all then commeth in interdightings suspensions of places as churches and townes yea whole realmes for one mans faulte what likelinesse hath this vnto the discipline of Christes church set forth in the scriptures and practised by the fathers with what face can you Papistes affirme they haue discipline in their Church whē all penaunces for most horrible offences may be bought out for money and an open market thereof set vp at Rome with the prices rated what men must pay for euery thing that they buye as absolution for him that hath killed his father or mother brother sister or wife Turones 4. Ducat 1. Ca. line 5.8 For an heretike before he haue abiured 36. Turones and 9. ducates For a witche 6. Turones 2. ducates For a priest that is a Sodomite or hath lyen with brute beastes 36. Turones 9. ducates For a nonne that hath bene a common whore both within and without her Abby with dispensation that she may be able to receiue any dignitie in her order yea to be Abbesse 36. Turones 9. ducates And so for all other offences with dispensations inhibitions rehabilities licences relaxations commutations confirmation perinde Valeres Marcamas and the deuill and all for money wherefore except you be to impudent to acknowledge this to be Christian discipline be as good as your promise and recant The sixth article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 Againe from what Church did all the solemne ceremonies and obseruations all festiuall dayes all fastes all distinctions and varieties of seruice by diuersities of seasons and times of the yeare proceede FIrst you must vnderstande that we detest and abhorre all your beggarly ceremonies which you counte holy and solemne obseruations for we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirit veritie Iohn 4. And seeing we know God or rather are knowen of him we will not regarde the weake and beggarly elementes because they are destitute of God his worde which onely i◠able to geue them strength and estimation as for your festiuities in the honour of creatures we doe likewise abhorre them ▪ we honour the Sainctes as S. Augustine sayeth for imitation but we do not worship them for Religion De vera Religione cap. 55. Where he also saith Quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honor them with loue and not with seruice And as he doth often affirme that it is Idolatry to builde churches in the honour of Sainctes so is it as great Idolatry to institute festiuall dayes in the fauour of the same Sainctes As for the festiuall dayes that were vsed in the primitiue Church although they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion yet were they not kept in the honour of creatures as they are of the Papistes but only for the memorie of the Martyrs and other Saincts that their good life might be followed Your fastes are also abhominable for they are nothing else but abstinence from meates created of God to be receiued with
whome the papistes counte no parte of their church but schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all vnto the profession of the name of Christ which yet continue in their religion being neither the true faith nor yet popish religion As for the popish church as it is certeine that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion so it shal be harde for the papistes to proue that it hath conuerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion except some partes of Germanie and them by force of armes rather than by preaching and reaching as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church holding the true doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all nations to true religion and that the popish church hath not conuerted any people to true religion nor all people to the profession of the name of Christ this chalenger whosoeuer he be do the recant The second article conteyneth 4. demandes 1 I aske of him what Church it was which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde to geue most humble credit in all points to the holy bookes of the Byble I Aunswere it was the Church of Christ and not the Popish church which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleued of all true Christians where soeuer they be although it be the office of the holy Ghost to open the hartes of men and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God to trie and examine whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Religion namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God and the saluation of mankinde geuing the glory of God to dead men and dumbe Images and denying the mercy of God pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death to be the onely cause of mans saluation Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article that the popish church did not conuerte all nations to the profession of the Christian faith it is euident thereby that the popish church did not induce all them that are called Christians to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought 2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes THe Church of Christ hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture but a iudgment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts the word of God of infallible verity from the writing of men which might erre this iudgement she hath not of her selfe but of the holy Ghost as for the popish Church it can not be said to haue this iudgemēt of discerning the scripture of God from other writings not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonical bookes of the scripture from the Apocrypha writings as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. but also because she is so presumptuous as to compel men to beleue that Customes and traditions writinges of doctors decrees of Popes and Councells are equall with the authoritie of God his worde yea are of force to alter and change the lawe of God and the institution of Christ set forth vnto vs in the scripture And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ than was the churches of the Arrians Donatistes Nouatians Euthychans other heretikes which receiued the Bible as well as the Popish church 3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them and most safely hath preserued them for the necessary vse of God his people and from the corruption of aduersaries as well of Iewes as heretikes of all sortes THe prouidence of God hath alwayes preserued the Scripture both from the violence of tyrants from the falshoode of heretikes and hath neuer suffred the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof But the popish church hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse much lesse the necessary vse thereof wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church to kepe the worde of God for the necessarie vse of God his people it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church which hath kept the scripture so that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes be a sure note of the Church why is not the Greeke Church the Catholike Church which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church why are not other Estern Churches of Asia which neuer acknowledged the Pope or popish religion true Churches which likewise haue preserued the scripture as we haue seen of late that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at themperours charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them And finally why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully than euer the Papistes And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures all men that are learned in the tongues can testifie in how corrupt a Latin translation they haue kept the scriptures both of the olde and of the new Testament 4 And let the Protestant declare to me that their Congregation hath had from time to time or euer had right herein or any other Church sauing the Catholike Church and I recant OVr Congregation which is the body of Christ hath euer had both right and possession of the inestimable treasure of the word of Christ her heade as appeareth by this that our Church and Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in it acknowledgeth that all thinges profitable to saluation are sufficiently conteined in it and finally in all thinges submitteth her selfe to the iudgemēt of it But the popish church which beleueth many thinges contrarie to the scripture teacheth many thinges beside the scripture necessary to saluation and refuseth to haue her faith doctrine and ceremonies to be iudged by the scripture neither hath neither euer had any right to the scripture though she haue neuer so many bookes of them in possession Wherefore these thinges considered this chalenger
doth recant The third article conteyneth 5. demandes 1 Shew me why our common knowen Church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion conteyned in the same THere may be diuers good reasons shewed why your Church commonly knowen to be the church of Antichrist did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion conteined therein First because she coulde not the copies thereof being so many by the prouidence of God dispersed throughout the worlde Secondly because she thought it not so needefull hauing other meanes to worke her deuilish deuise For although she coulde not corrupt the scripture yet it made the lesse matter because she founde meanes to diminish and controll the authority therof by aduancing decrees of men Popes and Councells to be equall or of greater authoritie than the scripture Thirdly because she woulde be lesse in feare to be reproued by the scripture she prouided that the knowledge thereof shoulde be hidden from the vnlearned people by a strange tongue and from the learned by the tedious mazes of questions deuised by her Canonistes and Sententiaries Fourthly because she submitted all interpretation of the scripture to her owne iudgement and therefore woulde not be controlled by the iudgement thereof but woulde alwayes expound it as it liked her best As appeareth by Ockam and Duns who though they confesse that transubstantiation seemeth to them contrary to the scripture and reason yet they beleued it because of the authoritie of the church and for none other cause These are the reasons why the Romish church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testamēt as the true Religion And yet how corrupt that Latine translation is which they woulde needes thrust vpō vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such texts as are the most coulerable places for the defence of Popish doctrine I will geue one example for all They alleage the text 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not against the certainetie of faith whereas the Greeke hath not he that standeth but he that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Thus the popish church cannot altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting of the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lorde knoweth 2 Shew me why she kept not so safely and faithfully the true sense of God his word as she preserued the word it selfe BEcause it was against her owne estimation and profit which are the chiefe endes for which popish Prelates mainteyne popish religion Take away the Popes prerogatiue which is contrary to the sense of God his word downe goe Cardinalls Legates Prothonotaries downe goeth all the Court of Rome take away workes of supererogation which are contrary to the Scripture downe goe Abbeys Priories and Chantries Take away the sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory which are contrary to the word of God downe goeth the estimation and gaynes of all the popish clergie And this is the cause why the popish church kept not so safely and faithfully the true sense of God his word as she preserued the word it selfe although she preserued not the word it self in such safetie as becommed the Church of Christ. 3 Shew me why we should beleue the Papistes as you terme them for the word it self and rather you Protestants thā them for the meaning of the word WE doe not chalenge credit to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it But because we proue it to be true by the worde of god And therefore for the meaning of the word you should beleue vs rather than them because our groundes proues are better then theirs or else we require not to be beleued better than they 4 Shew me why you beleued our Church telling you this to be God his booke will not credit her auouching this to be the true and vndoubted sense of the same booke IF we had no better ground to perswade vs of the authoritie of God his booke than the testimony of your Church you may be sure we would not beleue it But because we haue most stedfast assurance of God his spirite for the authority of that booke with the testimony of the true Church in all ages If you say it is God his booke we beleue you not because you say so but because we know it to be true But if you bring out a false sense we beleue you not because we know it to be false are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrary to the meaning of the holy Ghost To be plaine with you we geue as much credit to your Church as to the deuill When the deuill sayth it is written He shall giue his angells charge ouer thee and with their handes they shall hold thee vp that thou dash not thy foote against a stone We beleue that this is the worde of god But when he auoucheth this to be the meaning of it that we may cast downe our selues from a Church steeple without daunger we doe not beleue him because we know this sense is contrary to an other Scripture which sayth Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So when you say these wordes are the Scripture of God This is my body We beleue it because we knowe it to be true But when you say this is the meaning of these wordes This bread is turned into my naturall bodye we beleue you not because it is contrary to all places of Scripture which proue the trueth of Christ his humanitie or naturall body Thus I shewe you why we beleue you if you say the Scripture is God his word namely because we know it to be true why we beleue you not saying this is the meaning of it that is because we knowe by the word of God that it is false 5 Last of all Shew me why you beleued the olde known church affirming this to be the word of God and will not beleue her affirming Luther to be an heretike shew me good reason or Scripture for these thinges and I recant IF you meane by the olde Church the primitiue Church whose testimony of the word of God we allow beleue I deny that the primitiue Church did affirme Luther to be an heretike or the doctrine that he taught which we hold to be heresie but I am able to proue that the primitiue Church from which you haue receiued the Scripture affirmeth your doctrine to be heresie your Church the Church of Antichrist But if by the old knowne Church you meane the Church of old knowne to be the Church of Antichrist which is the popish church we beleue the deuill if he speake the trueth and we beleue not an Angell comming from heauen if he bring any other Gospel than S. Paule deliuered to the Galathians Therefore when your
church affirmeth Luther to be an heretike seeing we know that Luther did not obstinately and malitiously erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of religion we doe not beleue her and specially because she is a partiall witnesse against him whome God vsed to discouer so much of her wickednesse to her great hindrance there is no credit to be geuen vnto her when she goeth about to deface him by sclaunderous names and false accusations Thus I haue shewed these thinges that you require both by good reason and also by scripture Therefore if I may beleue you you recant The fourth article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 I demand what Church hath mightely gonne through borne downe and fully vanquished all heresies in times past aswell against the blessed Trinitie as other Articles of our religion I Aunswere the true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrary to the worde of God as her duty was and fought against them with the sworde of the spirite which is the worde of God and by the aide of God obteyned the victorie and triumphed ouer them So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. So did the fathers of the primitiue Church from time to time confute heresies by the scriptures and declare in their writinges that by them they are to be confuted for examples sake of a great number I will alleage a few Hylarius writing of the blessed Trinitie against heretikes Lib. 4. sayeth Cessent itaque propriae hominum opiniones neque se vltrà Diuinam constitutionem humanae iudicia extendant Sequamur ergo aduersus irreligiosas impias de Deo institutiones ipsas illas diuinoruÌ„m dictorum authoritates vnumquodque eorum ipso de quo quaeritur auctore tractabimus Wherefore let opinions propre to men geue place and let not mens iudgements stretche them selues further than God his constitution Therefore against these vnreligious and vngodly opinions of God let vs follow the very authority of God his sayings and handle euery one of them by the aide of him about whome the question is Thus Hylarius woulde haue heresies against the Trinitie to be confuted not by mens iudgement but by God his word Basilius magnus very often testifieth that he woulde haue all good thinges proued by the scripture and all euill thinges confuted by the same In his moralles Dist. 26. Euery worde or deede must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scripture for the perswasion of good men and the confusion of wicked men And in his treatise of Faith we know that we must now and alwayes auoide euery voice or opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lorde And in his short definitions to the first interrogation whether it be lawefull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe to do or say any thinge which he thinketh to be good without the testimonie of the holy Scripture he aunswereth forasmuch as our Sauiour Christ sayeth that the holy Ghost shall not speake of him selfe what madnes is it that any man shoulde presume to beleue any thing without the authoritie of God his worde By these and many other places it is manifest that Basilius woulde haue heresies and false opinions confuted by the holy Scriptures Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. sayeth that the ignorance of the scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidown by which it appeareth by what meanes he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the scriptures It were to long to reherse all the places of S. Augustine by which his minde appeareth that he would haue the Church sought onely in the scriptures and heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures to whose onely authoritie in many places he professeth that he him selfe will be bounde as Epist. 19. ad Hieronymum Epist. 48. Vincentio Epist. 111. Fortunatiano Epist. 112. to Paulina contra Faustum lib. 11. cap. 5. Contra Cresconium Grammaticum lib. 2. cap. 31. 32. de Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. cap. 2. De meritis remissione peccatorum contra Pelagianos lib. 3. cap. 7. De naturae gratia cap. 61. De gratia Christi contra Pelagium cap. 43. De nuptijs concupiscentia lib. 2. c. 29. In these places S. Augustine preferreth the authority of the Canonicall scripture before all writinges of Catholike Doctors of Byshops of Councells before all customes and traditions But that he would haue the true Church sought onely in the scriptures it is manifest by these places first in his 48. Epistle to Vincentius Nos autem ideo certi sumus neminem se a communione omnium gentium iustè separare potuisse quia non quis quam nostrum in iustitia sua sed in scripturis Diuines quaerit Ecclesiam speaking of the Donatistes he sayeth We are suer that no man could iustly separate him selfe from the communion of all Nations because none of vs seeketh the Church in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures So if the Papistes woulde not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke the Church of Christ in the scriptures they would not separate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now by God his grace inlarged farther than the Popish church Also in his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 2. he hath these wordes Inter nos autem Donatistas quaestio est vbi sit Ecclesa Quid ergo facturi sumus in verbis nostris â—am quaesituri an in verbis capitis sui Domini nostri Iesu Christiâ— puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quaerere debemus qui veritas est optimè nouit corpus suum The question is betwene vs and the Donatistes where the Church shoulde be what shall we doe then shall we seeke her in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her heade our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his words which is the Truth and best knoweth his owne body So the question is at this daye betwen the Papistes and vs where the church is let vs seeke in God his worde there we shall easily finde her To the same intent he speaketh in the third fiueth and sixtenth Chapters of the same treatise Furthermore that he woulde haue heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures he sheweth likewise in many places of his workes for writing against Maximinus the Arian lib. 3. cap. 14. a place commonly and often cited he sayeth but nowe neither must I preiudicially bring forthe the Councell of Nice nor then the Councell of Arimine for neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one nor you of the other but let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason contend by authoritie of the scriptures not proper to any but indâ—fferent witnesses to both partes If Augustine would not oppresse the Arrians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the scriptures how much lesse woulde he
into two Lutherans and Zuinglians As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament and differ onely in ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Caluine and they that be of his iudgement agree plainly with Zuinglius so that of fiue names there remaine but two sortes differing in opinion whereunto you ioyne the Swenkefeldians and Anabaptistes Now to your question these be not all of one Church for the Swenkefeldians Anabaptists be detestable heretiks but the Lutherans Zuingliās as it pleaseth you to cal thē are of one true church although they differ in one opinion cōcerning the Sacramēt for although the one affirme a real presence the other deny it yet they both cōsent in this that the body of Christ is receiued spiritually not corporally with the hart and not with the mouth Wherfore this dissention is not so great though there be error on the one side but that they may be both of the Church of Christ as well as S. Cyprian the Martyr and all the Bishops of Africa and a great many of Asia differing with Stephanus bishop of Rome and the rest of his opinion in rebaptizing such as were baptized by heretiks 2 And if either they can proue vnto me that these being of such diuersitie in faith and religion make one Church WE haue alwaies abhorred the heresies of the Anabaptistes Libertines Swenkefeldians Dauidians Seruitians and all such But that Luther Zuinglius may be both of one Church differing onely in one opinion of the Sacrament is declared before 3 Or that each of their sects may giue saluation to their folowers being so disagreable one with an other in high points of our Religion SAluation is the gift of God and not in the power of any company or sect of men but this we affirme that out of that Church whereof we count Luther and Zuinglius notwithstanding their diuerse opinions which is but in one matter of the Sacrament to be members there is no saluation 4 Or that I should beleue all these rather then the Catholike Church or one of these more then another all making such a bold chalenge of the truth and Gospell NO man requireth you to beleue all these but the true Catholike Church onely Neither doe we requite you to beleue any one company of men more then an other but to beleue the trueth before falshood Now which of them hath the truth that they all brag of you must search in the word of truth desiring the spirite of truth that you may vnderstand and beleue the truth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the truth and of the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth 5 Let the Protestants of all these kindes put their heades together and shew me a reason of these thinges and with all let them among them selues agree to what sorte of these sectes they woulde haue me and I will recant SVch is your impudencie in this matter as in all other that you woulde make men beleue that the Anabaptistes Swenkefeldians Libertins and other abhominable heretikes be Protestantes But it is well that you can make none but fooles thinke so as for the Protestantes they neede take no great deliberation to aunswere your demandes but you had more neede to laye your heades together to reconcile the Thomistes Albertistes Ockamistes Scotistes Reales and Nominalls which be all sectes of Papistes and especially your Canonistes and diuines about the articles of your religion that is whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councel aboue the Pope Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell or whether the Councell maye erre and not the Pope These two the Popes determination and the Councells determination being the rules of trueth in your religion and not agreed vpon how can any trueth be certeine in your Church As for Luther and Zuinglius they agree vpon one rule of trueth that is the worde of God and differ onely for the applying or laying of this rule yet but in one matter that not the greatest But you Papists some holding of the Pope and some of the Councell as rules of truth can haue no ground nor certainty thereof Therefore if you woulde haue me or any man to be of your belefe First determine how I shal know when I am in a right beleefe one sayeth if the councell alloweth it an other sayeth if the Pope alloweth what shall I doe when one of these is against an other yea when one Pope is against an other and one councell against an other shall I thinke that trueth changeth so often as they change Moreouer when one Pope graunteth that the councell is aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre Likewise one councell graunteth that the Pope is aboue the councell and that the councell may erre as it hath bene within the 200. yeares the councells of Constance and Basill determined that the councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre Contrariwise the councell of Ferraria and Florence determined that the Pope was aboue the councell and that the councell might erre Martinus 5. the Pope chosen by the councell of Constance was of the same iudgement that the councell But Eugenius 4. that gathered the councell of Ferraria and Florence against the councell of Basill was of the contrarie iudgement Nowe I woulde saye he were a wittie fellow that coulde reconcile this geare together For if he be a Canonist that holdeth this opinion that the Pope can not erre whē the Pope him self graunteth that he may erre which waye shall he turne him selfe For if this proposition be true the Pope can not erre then this is true also that the Pope may erre for if he can not erre he can not erre in saying so And if the Pope erred in saying he coulde erre where he can not erre then this proposition is false the Pope can not erre so one proposition shal be both true and false which is impossible Likewise if he holde that hilde that the councell can not erre and the councell it selfe confesseth it that it may erre Gentle maister N. reconcile me these together which concerne a case that hath bene in practise and still is in the Papistrie and maye here trouble a mans conscience that woulde beleue your church and if he haue any wit restraine him for euer comming into your church If you can not vntie this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze vnlesse you will be still obstinate it were wisedome for you to recant The 18. article hath but one demande I demande whether they were euer of the true Catholike church which either tooke to them selues newe names of religion according to the calling of any secte maister or liked not so well the name of Catholike or Christian as of their seuerall teachers as to be called of Arius Arians or of Caluine Caluinistes or of Luther Lutheranes
of the Arrians and being brought vp by them had learned that article to beleue the Catholike church which the Arrians would expound to be them selues if afterward by God his helpe this man vnderstood that the church of the Arrians was not the catholike church as he was taught it was but that Athanasius and a few other that were banished and persecuted were the true Catholike church he was bounde to leaue the Arrians commonly called the church and to ioyne him selfe with the secret banished hidde and persecuted church of Christ. But as for your Popish church in that time of blindenesse and error taught not the people that article nor any other but kept them backe from the knowledge as well of that article as of all other thinges that were necessary to their saluation for you taught them nothing els but to pronounce and that full il fauoredly like popingeys certeine latine wordes which they vnderstoode no more than stockes or stones So that the people had no instruction of you no not of the name of God in many places but that they receiued by vncertaine talke of their parentes as it were from hande to hande for how many thousand parishes are there in Englande that within these 60. yeares woulde declare that they neuer hearde sermon in their life As for that they hearde of their seruice they learned as much of it as of the ringing of their belles which was a sounde without vnderstanding Therefore you may be ashamed to speake of teaching the people their belefe and all thinges necessary for saluation when you haue counted it heresie to learne their creede in English or to reade the scripture in English in which is conteined all thing necessary to be knowen for euerlasting saluation Finally because you requier me to shew you that the Christian people of those dayes were bounde to beleue any other church than that which taught them the article of the church and baptised them I trow I will so shew it you that for both your eares you dare not deny it how saye you The Christian people of the Greeke church which were taught by the Greeke church that article of the church and by the same Greeke church were baptised whether ought they to beleue any other church but the Greeke church If you say no then you acknowledge the Greeke church to be the true church which denieth the Popes authoritie if you saye yea Then you are welcome home you recant The 22. article although it be very confuse yet it conteyneth in effect 3. demandes 1 I aske also whether any man for the space of that 1000. yeres of blindenes could be saued out of that secrete and small Church which they say was the true Church if they aunswer me there might be some saued with our Sacraments and in the Communion or fellowship of the Papistes out of the Protestants Church then there was a way to heauen out of Gods Church if they say that none could be saued by our Sacraments out of their close Church then all men yong and old perished for those yeares without any hope of mercy because they could not vnite them selues and be incorporate to that company and Congregation whereof they neuer neither hearde nor coulde by any meanes surmise Therefore let any man aliue proue vnto me that either any man could out of the true Church be saued NO man aliue that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church for he that is not a member of the body of Christ caÌ„ by no meanes receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therefore how long so euer the true Church were hidden whether it were a thousand yeres as you beare men in hand that we should say or two thousand yeares it is not materiall this is certeyne that out of this Church none could be saued and though you count it smal as in deede in respect of the world it is but a small flocke and fewe are elected and fewe finde the streit gate of life Luke 12. Matth. 7. 20. yet is the number of it greater then mans eye commonly can discerne As when Elias thought that he only had bene left alone of the true Church God answered that he had yet reserued 7000. that neuer bowed their knee to Baal 1. Reg. 19. And as Esay declareth when the people shoulde be almost all destroyed yet a remnant should be saued which though it seemed to be small yet it should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa. 10. and though it shal be like a gathering of grapes when vintage is ended or the shaking of an oliue tree when men thinke they haue left noâ—hing vppon it yet there be two or three in the toppe amonge the boughes foure or fiue vnder the leaues in the highest braÌ„ches Esay 17. 24. 2 Or that any other company could be knowne for the true and onely Church but our common Catholike societie THe true Catholike Church was neuer so secrete or hidden but it might be knowne of all those that had eyes to see it whose hartes were lightened with the spirite of God and were enstructed by the worde of God that they might vnderstande the trueth and knowe the spouse of Christ from the common strompet of Antichrist 3 Or that all men were damned for a thousand yeares togither because they coulde not finde nor surmise of any other Church then that which practiseth all holy functions which Christ left for our saluation in the world and I recant WE take not vpon vs to medle with God his iudgments whom he condemneth for what causes further then the word of God teacheth vs namely that as many as haue not beleued in the onely sonne of God are condemned for their vnbeliefe other secret causes we remit to his secrete counsell and knowledge And wheras you say that the popish church practiseth all holy functions that Christ left for the saluation of his Church it is most false for first you doe not preach remission of sinnes in the bloode of Christ onely for either you preach not all or else you preach remission of sinnes in any thing rather then the onely merites of Christ as in mens owne merites workes of supererogation pardons masses beggarly ceremonies as holy water auriculer confession c. Secondly you minister not the Sacraments purely according to Christ his institution but either corrupt and defile them with mans traditioÌ„s as you do Baptisme or else cleane chauÌ„ge the vse of them as in the Lordes Supper which you make a Sacrifice an idoll a Priestes breakfast and defraude the people of the one halfe of the sacrament as though you were wiser then he that instituted it in both kindes Thirdly discipline you haue conuerted into tyranny and couetousnes reteyning nothing but the name of it alone Wherefore seeing you exercise no holy function after Christ his institution but cleane contrary to the same and doe
obstinately defend the filthy whore of babylon against the cleare light of the Gospell the true spouse of Christ ye shall be damned except you recant The 23. article conteyneth 2. demandes 1 Againe shew me any Church or imagin if you can by good reason a church of Christ in which there is no gathering together for preaching no spirite of prophesying no rodde of correction no order of ministring nor any spirituall functioÌ„ that can be named proue me that there should be a true Church for a thousand yeares together and lacked all these thinges YOu would faine haue a great nombre of Articles and therefore you bring in one matter often times in diuers phrase of words that it might seeme a new matter when it hath bene vttered twise or thrise before as this Article is conteined before in the 5.8 and 9. Articles where you shall finde it more largely aunswered But let vs see what this strange demande requireth we must shew him a church or els imagine by good reason a church of Christ without preaching ministring and discipline for a thousand yeares together Although we will not graunt that it hath so longe continued without these exercises yet because you geue vs leaue to imagine we can imagine that it may as well continue without publike preaching ministring and discipline for a thousand yeares as it did for three hundred yeares before Constantine But you will say there was preaching ministring and correcting though it were not knowen to the tyrantes and persecutors so say I vnto you for that thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting though the Pope and his persecuting Prelates coulde not alwayes see it nor come to the knowledge of it for if they had once intelligence of it they smarted for it as is knowen by the stories of the Waldenses Bohemians c. Furthermore continuall exercise of preaching ministring of sacramentes and executing of discipline are notes of a quiet and peaceable Congregation not of a dispersed persecuted and disquieted Church How often doth S. Cyprian coÌ„plaine that the brethren could not be gathered togither for executing of discipline whereby it is certeyne that likewise they coulde not be gathered togither for other exercises Therefore the intermission of these exercises in a persecuted Church doth not proue the same to be no true Church But where so euer there be two or three gathered togither in the name of Christ there is he in the middest of them But whereas you require the spirite of prophesie except you meane the gift of interpreting the Scriptures the Church in the most quiet and flourishing state may want the spirite of shewing things to come as well as the giftes of tongues healing c. 2 And withall that there was an other vntrue Church which for those many dayes onely practised to the saluation of many all these offices and geue me a good reason why this Church that alwayes hath had these thinges should be a false Church and the other that wanted them to be a true Church and I recant WE vtterly denye that beside the true Church there was an vntrue church that practised those offices to the saluation of any man for once againe I tell you you haue neither the preaching of the word nor ministring of Sacraments nor execution of discipline according to the truth of God his institution but either altogither changed or else greatly corrupted And whereas you say that the popish church onely hath practised these offices I aske you againe whether the Greeke Church be a parte of your Church and whether the Papistes in England be a part of your Church The Grecians you will say are not but the English Papistes are Then haue I founde out by your owne iudgement the Church of the Grecians practising these offices being an vntrue church the church of the English Papistes not practising the same yet graunted of you to be a true Church Therfore you are bound to recant The 24. article conteyneth 10. demandes 1 Moreouer let any man shew how that Church can be the piller of truth which durst not for a thousand yeares clayme either preaching of Gods word or ministring of SacrameÌ„ts or shew her selfe against falshood or superstition AS the number of your articles doth draw to an ende so your matter is farre spent and therefore to make vppe your number you must repete one thing twise This demaund is conteined before in the 11. and 12. articles where also it is fully aunswered Notwithstanding seeing it commeth againe it shal be briefly aunswered in this place The Church is not called the piller of truth because it should stand alwayes in the sight of the world for then the defection which S. Paule speaketh of could not haue come neither should the Church flie into the wildernes as was declared to S. Iohn But it is called the piller of truth because that where so euer the Church is either visible or inuisible there is the truth So though the Church were hidde a certeyne time in the wildernes yet there was trueth with the Church You seeme to be a good Arithmetrician for no number soundeth in your mouth but a thousand Neuerthelesse how long so euer it was the piller of truth decayed not And as God gaue his spirite diuers times was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilus de Pandua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes VVickleffe VValdo Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Thus it is manifest that the Church hath diuers tymes chalenged her right and withstood falshood 2 Let any man shew that all giftes of the spirite and functions of the holy Ghost haue bene taken from her a thousand yeares togither and onely practised to the peoples vse by an aduouterous Church THere is no man can shew this for it is a false lye that all giftes of the spirite function of the holy Ghost were either taken from the true Church or giuen to the adulterous church And this hath bene shewed more then once or twise before 3 Let it be declared how the gates of hell haue not preuailed or Christes promise and warrant for her not bene voyd frustrate if a bastard Church exercising idolatry as they say hath spoyled the true Church of all holy actions and the whole gouernment and the whole name of Christianitie almost euer since Christes tyme. THe Deuill hath bent all his force and ordinance he hath armed all the power of darkenesse he stirred vp â—yrantes heretikes Popes Saracenes and Turkes to destroye the Church the dragon that olde serpent Satanas the Deuill stoode before the woman to deuoure her childe he persecuted her into the wildernesse he cast out of his mouthe a great riuer to cary her awaie he made warre with the rest of her seede that keepe the commaundementes of god Apoc. 12. but yet in despight of the deuill the
for as euery heretike chalengeth vnto him selfe the trueth of opinions so also doth he chalenge the possession of the church so that the church is alwayes in as great question as the doctrine And then is it to be sought out and tried onely by the scriptures as we haue declared at large in the aunswere to the 4. Article 2. demande Secondly whereas you demande whether she coulde be so hidde or close that no man coulde finde her because I haue aunswered to this demande fower or fiue times already I will now aunswere in one worde Although she was bidden and close from the worlde yet was she knowen to them that were her children 2 Or so harteles that she coulde succour no man nor instruct any man in his doubt of conscience or distresse of Faith proue me that there maye be such a decay of Gods spirite trueth and Church and I recant THe Church hath neuer bene afraide to do her office towardes her children and true members in teaching â—xhorting comforting confirming c. neither hath the spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth and Christ hath bene with her euer more and shal be to the worldes end But that the spirite of God truth and the Church of Christ shoulde departe from the greatest numbre of the worlde is proued by S. Paule 2. Thess. 2. and by the Reuelation of S. Iohn Apoc. 12. Therfore if the spirite of trueth did leade you you shoulde recant The 26. article conteyneth in effect but 3. demandes 1 Shew me againe whether any man of yeares may be saued except he beleue the Catholike Church THere is no man of what age or yeares soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a member of the Catholike church But how necessary it is to beleue the Catholike church it is very doubtfull as you demande and as the conclusion of this article seemeth to require If you meane that it is necessary to beleue the Catholike church that is to say that God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation I graunt it is necessary to beleue But I vtterly deny that the Romish church is that holy Catholike church But if you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that article I beleue the Catholike church that is I beleue what soeuer the church doth allow to be true I deny that it is necessary to saluation that a Christian man should so beleue the Catholike church both because the church may erre also because something may be commonly receiued of the church which is not materiall to saluation And that this is a false interpretation of this article of our Creede I beleue the Catholike church that is I beleue what so euer she doth set forth or maintaine to be true appeareth manifestly by the wordes them selues For who euer was so ignorant in the Latine tongue to thinke that Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae were all one in signification In deede if the wordes were Credo Ecclesiae Catholicae in the datiue case this interpretation might take place but when it is in the accusatiue case Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam A boy that woulde conster it otherwise than thus I beleue that there is a Catholike church were worthy to haue a doosen stripes for his labour Moreouer this common distinction of Credere in Deum that is to put our trust in god Credere Deum that is to beleue that there is a God and Credere Deo that is to geue credit to God that he speaketh the trueth plainely ouerthroweth this foolish and false interpretation For we say not Credo in Ecclesiam that is I put my whole trust in the Church for that were blasphemie against God in whome only we must beleue neither do we say Credo Ecclesiae that is I geue credit to the Church as though she shoulde alwaies speake the trueth But we saye and confesse against all heretikes and scismatikes Credo Ecclesiam c. that is I beleue that there is one Holy Catholike and Apostolike church whereof I am a member c. Finally when the articles following are spoken in one context and phrase it can not be chosen but that they must haue one kinde of interpretation Communionem Sanctorum Remissionem peccatorum Carnis resurrectionem that is I beleue the Communion of Sainctes the forgeuenesse of sinnes the Resurrection of the body c. whereof the interpretation must needes be this I beleue that there is a Communion of Sainctes that there is forgiuenesse of sinnes c. Euen so I beleue that there is a Catholike Church which is an article of our crede necessary to be beleued of euery Christian man but to beleue all and euery thing that the Catholike church by commoÌ„ consent doth maintaine is no article of our Faith and therefore not necessary to saluation 2 And that is it which hath in the face of all the worlde practised preachâ—ng the conuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell that hath alwaies had the ministring of sacraments the hearing of matters in controuersie power Iudiciarie in Ecclesiasticall causes the orderly succession of Byshops vniformitie in solemne ceremonies vnity in faith that hath in her selfe all holy functions of the spirite as working of miracles remission of sinnes the true sence and interpretation of Gods word that is bewtified by the diuersitie of states commended by Christ in the Gospell as with Virgines with Martyrs with Confessors and the rest BEcause these colewortes haue bene sodden twise or thryse already they are not worthy to be shewed in seuerall dishes but euen as they are here mingled all togither in an hochpotte Of these notes that you make proper to the Catholike Church as it hath bene declared before some are not alwaies necessary in the catholike church As open preaching in the face of the world open ministring of Sacraments and execution of discipline these are not to be required in a persecuted Church Some were proper for a time and then ceased as working of miracles and diuers other functions of the spirite Some are neuer necessary in the Church as succession of Bishops vniformitie in ceremonies c. But of all these notes there is not one that is proper to the Church of Rome for she hath not alwaies practised open preaching and neuer preached the worde of truth she hath conuerted but few nations to her Religion from Gentilitie and them rather by warre than by preaching she neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of sacraments according to Christ his institutioÌ„ she hath hard matters in controuersie not for furtherance of Iustice but for loue of money Her iudiciarie power may be dispensed withall for money She hath had no orderly succession of Bishops except an hore be an orderly Bishop of the Church of Rome And except so many schismes as they write of be orderly successions she hath not vniformitie in all ceremonies for diuerse nations and diuerse Churches in these nations haue diuers
ceremonies as Sarum Yorke Bangor c. in England she hath not vnitie in faith for it is not yet determined of one of the greatest articles of Popish faith whether the Pope be aboue the church she hath no holy functions of God his spirite but prophane vsages of mens inuentions she hath no true miracles but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of God his worde which submitteth the same to her owne corrupt and changeable iudgement She is not bewtified with estates commended in Scripture as Apostles Euangelists Prophets Pastors and Teachers but with Popes Cardinalls Monkes Chanons Fryers c. In steede of virgines she hath filthy strumpets her Nunnes or else such foolish virgines as bring no oyle in their lampes she hath no Martyrs but obstinate traytors as Becket Fisher More c. she hath no confessors of trueth though she haue ten thousand mainteyners of falshood and lyes Wherfore if these be the notes of the Catholike Church the Church of Rome can in no wise be that same 3 Proue vnto me that this is not the true Church or that we be not bound to obey this Church and no other in all controuersies and doubtes raysed either by the difficultie of the Scripture or by the vayne contention pride of heresie and I recant I Haue proued euen immediatly before that not one of those notes which you count to be markes of the true Church is proper to your Church And therefore it is not the truth neither ought it to be obeyed in any thing And as for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie must be resolued and determined as it is abundantly declared before onely by the Scriptures for the hard places of the Scripture must be opened by easie places and heretikes must be confuted by the Scriptures for there is neuer heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience which I woulde wish that you would truely embrace and recant The 27. article conteyneth 5. demandes 1 Moreouer let any man proue vnto me that the true onely Church of God may at any time be voyd of God his spirite THe true and onely Church of Christ can neuer be voyd of God his spirite and yet she may erre from the truth and be deceiued in some thinges euen as there is no true Christian man that is voyd of God his spirite for he that hath not the spirite of Christ is none of his Rom. 8. yet may euery true Christian erre and be deceaued in some things according to the saying of the Scripture euery man is a lyar Wherefore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyars may erre all togither as euery part thereof although neither the whole Church nor any true member thereof be voyd of God his spirite 2 Or falsely interprete any sentence of holy Scripture THis gentle offer must needes be taken I will proue vnto you that the church of Rome hath falsely interpreted diuers sentences of scripture and therefore by that which she hath done it cannot be doubted but that she may do it S. Augustine was in this error that he thought Infantes must receiue the sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ vnder paine of damnation and was deceiued by false interpretation of this scripture Except ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloude c. Ioan. 6. This error and false interpretation he affirmeth to be common to all the Westerne church to Pope Innocent him selfe Contra duas epist. Pelag. ad Bonifacium lib. 2. cap. 4. cōtra Iulianum lib. 1. cap. 2. Furthermore the second Councell of Nice how many textes of scripture doth it falsely interprete which it were to tedious to repete yet for examples sake I will reherse some of them God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we must haue images in the church No man lighteth a candle and setteth it vnder a bushell Math. 5. therefore images must be set vpon the altars As we haue heard so we haue seene in the City of our God Psal. 48. that is God must not be knowen by onely hearing of his worde but also by sight of images If these be not true interpretations I reporte me to you Beside these I will bring you a sentence of holy Scripture not onely falsely interpreted in sence but also falsified in wordes and concerning not a small matter but euen one of the cheefe articles of our Faith. It is written in the 10. chapter of the Gospell after S. Iohn the 29. verse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 My Father which gaue thē vnto me speaking of his sheep is greater than all This sentence hath the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the 3. where were present 70. Metropolitanes 400. Bishops 12. Abbates and 800. Priors commentualles in all 1300. Prelats falsified in wordes after this maner Pater quod dedit mihi maius est omnibus that is That which the Father hath geuen me is greater than all This sentence they alleage to proue that God the Father begetting his Sonne from euerlasting gaue his owne substance vnto him the wordes be in the 2. Canon Pater enim ab aeterno filium generando suam substantiam ei dedit iuxta quod ipse testatur Pater quod dedit mihi maius est omnibus At dici non potest quod partem suae substantiae illi dederit partem retinuerit ipse sibi cum substantia Patris indiuisibilis sit c. that is to say For the Father begetting his sonne from euerlasting gaue him his owne substance according as he himselfe witnesseth that which the Father gaue me is greater than all But it can not be said that he gaue him part of his substance and kept parte vnto him selfe when as the substance of the Father is indiuisible c. Goe your wayes now and perswade vs that your church can not interprete any sentence of the scripture falsely when the Laterane Councell which is your represented church hath thus both falsefied and falsely interpreted this scripture Perswade men that they may safely leane to the interpretation of your church when among a thousand and three hundred Prelates gathered canonically in a Councell not one was founde that coulde espie such grosse abusing of the worde of God but let it passe in a Canon vnder the name of the whole Councell Perswade men that in all controuersies condemning of errors they must be ruled by the determination of your Church When the Fathers of the Laterane Councell can not confute the error of Ioachim Abbot concerning the Diuinitie of Christ but by falsefying and false interpreting of scripture These few examples of an infinite numbre I haue set forth because they are sufficient both to satisfie your chalenge and to perswade the simple that the
church of Rome may falsely interprete the scripture which you woulde beare them in hande were impossible 3 Or induce any error among the people THe true and onely church of God is so guided by God his spirite and directâ—d by his worde that she can not induce any damnable error to continue Yet as it is declared before she hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some thinges for her knowledge is vnperfect and her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. And it is true that S. Augustine sayeth euen the whole church is taught to saye Forgeue vs our trespasses And if generall Councells be the church represented as you Papistes doe teache S. Augustine plainely affirmeth that they may erre De Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. cap. 2. Quis autem nesciat sanctam scripturam Canonicam tam veteris quam noui Testamenti c. And who knoweth not that the holy Canonicall scripture as well of the olde as of the newe Testament is conteined within her certeine boundes and that it is so preferred before all later writinges of byshops that of it no man may in any wise doubt or dispute whether it be true or whether it be right what so euer is knowen to be written therin and that the writings of bishops which haue bene written or are now in writinge maye be reprehended if they haue gonne astraie any thing from the trueth both by the saying that is perhaps more wise of any man that is more skilfull in that matter and by the more graue authoritie and wisedom of other better learned bishops and also by Councells and that euen those Councells which are gathered in euery region or prouince ought to geue place without all doubt to the authoritie of the generall Councells which are gathered out of all the Christian worlde and that euen the very generall Councells may often be amended the former by the later when as by any triall of thinges that is opened which before was shut and that is knowen which before was hidden without any swelling of wicked pride without any stubbernesse of arrogance without any contention of peuishe enuie with holy Humility with Catholike peace with Christian charity Thus farre S. Augustine which cleerely affirmeth that generall Councells may often erre which maye often be amended but that the authority of God his worde is to be preferred before the writinges of all Doctors and Decrees of all Councells and that it onely can not erre The Councell of Carthage the 3. ca. 23. determined that all prayers at the altar shoulde be directed onely to the Father and not to the Sonne or the holy Ghost whether this be an error to define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost let euery man iudge But you will except that this was a prouinciall Synode and not a generall Councell But I aunswere you it hath the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in the sixt generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo And as for the Popish church that it maye erre what neede we better proofe than the prayer which it maketh after the ending of euery generall Councell Precamur scilicet vt ignorantiae parcas errori indulgeas that is we praye truely that thou wouldest spare our ignorance pardoÌ„ our error And againe Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorom aut praeceps forsitan voluntas impulerit a Iustitia declinare ob hoc te poscimus te rogamus vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate attraximus condonare remissibile facere digneris that is And because we are greued with remorce of conscience lest either ignorance haue drawen vs into error or perhaps rash will hath driuen vs to decline from Iustice therefore we praye thee we beseech thee that if we haue drawen vnto vs any offence in the celebration of this Councell thou wouldest vouche safe to pardon and to make it remissible c. If it be impossible for the generall Councell to erre what neede they pray to God to pardon their error and when their owne conscience condemneth them and compelleth them to confesse and that before God that they may erre what impudence is it in any man to contend that they can not erre Furthermore the second Councell of Nice determined that Angels and soules of men had bodies were visible and circumscriptible and therefore might be painted and this it affirmeth to be the iudgement of the Catholike church Con. Nice 2. Actione 5. If this be not to induce an error to make men beleue that Angells and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscriptible there was neuer anye error sence the worlde beganne Finally when they say the Pope can not erre they acknowledge that such generall Councells as condemned Popes for heretikes did erre as the sixt generall Councell of Constantinople in Trullo which condemned and accursed Pope Honorius for an heretike Actione 13. Euen as Pope Leo the 2. did also as appeareth in his epistle to the Emperour Constantine Also the Councell of Constance did erre which condemned Pope Iohn the 23. for denying the immortality of the soule and the resurrection of the body Session 11. which Councell Pope Iohn him selfe affirmed to be most holy and that it coulde not erre Session 12. And the Councell of Basile did erre which deposed Pope Eugenius the 4. Session 34. the same Councell being confirmed by Pope Nicolas the 5. Session 43. If you say these two last Councells did not erre in condemning and deposing these Popes Then the great generall and OEcumenicall Councell of Ferraria and Florence did erre in disallowing the determination of these Councells Thus it is manifest that the Romish church which they them selues confesse to be represented in a generall Councell may erre which hath so often erred And if it may erre and be deceiued it selfe what man is he that neede to doubt Whether it maye induce any error among the people 4 Or approue any vnprofitable or hurtefull vsage among Christians IF the church had not approued many vnprofitable and hurtefull vsages among the people in S. Augustines time what neede had he to complaine that many of God his coÌ„maundemeÌ„ts were litle regarded mans presumptions so highely esteemed Sed hoc nimis doleo c. But herewithall I am to much greued that many thinges which in God his booke are most holsomly commanded are lesse regarded and all thinges are so full of so many presumptions that he is more greuousely reproued which in his vtas hath touched the earth with his bare foote that he that hath buried his minde in dronkennesse Therefore if it be an vnprofitable and hurtefull vsage to preferre mans traditions before God his commaundementes the Church in S. Augustines time approued an vnprofitable and hurtefull vsage Furthermore if the Church can not approue an vnprofitable or hurtefull vsage wherefore are so many ceremonies as
Marsilius of Padua preached in France when VValdo preached at Lyons and there about In England when VVickliffe taught in Bohemia when Iohn Hus and Ieronyme of Prage did florishe 2 Or that it might be called holy which neuer had Baptisme or other sacramentes to sanctifie any of her followers withall IT had the spirite of God to sanctifie the true members of it and it had sacramentes to testifie the same Also did not the Bohemians baptise Were not pauperes de Lugduno baptised c. But if you count their Baptisme no Baptisme why did you not rebaptize in Queene Maries time all those that were baptized by our Church in King Edwards time 3 Or that it should be one which as soone as it grew vp in the world was diuided into so many sundry sectes NOne of vs will graunt you that our Church began first to grow when it was last brought to light and knowledge of the world for it hath continued euen since christ But if there arose or were renewed many heresies with it that is no new matter but an olde practise of the deuill For as soone as the Church of Christ beganne to grow vp after his ascension euen in the Apostles time there were many sectes and heresies As the Iewes that mainteyned the lawe they that denyed the Resurrection among the Corinthians Hymenaeus and Philetus Simon Magus Cerinthus Ebion Marcion Basilides Valentinus Carpocrates c. So that there were many more heresies at the first preaching of the Gospell in and immediatly after the Apostles time then at the last restoring of the publike preaching therof vnto the worlde in our dayes And yet the Apostolike Church was one Church and so is ours at this day one and the same 4 Or that it might be called Apostolike which could neuer coūt by orderly succssion from any Apostle or Apostolike man. YOu are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishoppe at Rome And then where is all your braggs of Apostolike sea and succession c. But be it that Peter was there except you proue succession of doctrine and faith as wel as succession of men your successiō is not worth a straw And our Church which holdeth all the doctrine of the Apostles and none other but the doctrine of the Apostles shall be truely called and founde the Apostolike Church when your with all her succession of Antichristes whore whoremongers heretikes Sodomites blasphemers coniurers c. shabe Apostaticall rather than Apostolicall 5 Or the secret base contemptible defaced and disordered Congregation was euer of that maiestie that it might require the obedience of all Nations HOw base and contemptible soeuer it be in the eyes of the wicked despisers of it yet did it not only require but also subdue all nations to the obedience of the Faith so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperors and before And sence when it was most defaced by the tyrannie of Antichrist it was of such maiestie that it both required and obteined the obedience of the realme of Bohemia and in processe of time hath obteined the obedience of almost all the nations of Europe If the churche of Rome reteine the like maiestie why doth it not now requier the like obedience of all nations both Christians and Turkes you will saye It requireth but it can not obteine Euen so I aunswere of our Church it hath alwayes bene worthy to requier but it hath not pleased God that it shoulde alwaies obteine 6 Or that it was euer able to gather generall Councels THe foure best generall Councells were gathered by our Church and the Emperors that were defenders of the same and not by the byshops of Rome Neither were they Presidentes in them as it is manifest that other men were Authors of the Canons or distinctions As of the Nicene Alexander Bishop of Constantinople of the Constantinopolitane Nectarius byshop of the Ephesine Cyrillus byshop of Alexandria of the Chalcedonense Anatolius of Constantinople c. and in other generall Councells where the bishop of Rome was president I aunswere as Iohn Patriarche of Antioche did in the Councell of Basile his presidence was Honoraria ad beneplacitum Concilij eis data non authoritatiua nisi ex concessione aut permissione habente vim concessionis aut ex tolerantia that is For honor sake graunted to them so long as it shoulde please the Councell and not of authority but either by graunt or permission being of the force of a graunt or els of sufferance And I conclude as he doth the Pope was neuer President either of honor or of authority but by the graunt or permission of the Councell And how is the Popish church able to gather general Councells at this daye who will come at her calling Except a few Spaniardes and a ioly company of buckram bishops of Italie generall Councells of all the worlde can neuer be gathered but either whē there is a Monarchie or els which is not to be looked for that all the Princes of the worlde will consent together 7 Or exercise Discipline BEcause this demande hath bene aunswered so often before I will saye the lesse nowe The free course of discipline in time of persecution may be hindred As it was in S. Cyprians time when the members of the Church be dispersed but the power of discipline hath alwayes remained and when occasion serued bene executed As the Bohemians excommunicated the Adamites and the ciuill Magistrates punished them by the sworde 8 Or that these names proper by scripture and Doctors of the true Church coulde be euer chalenged by any right to their saide Congregation AS many of these names as are proper to the Church by scripture or Doctors agreeing with scripture haue bene alwayes iustly chalenged of right to perteine to our Church and Congregation I meane these 1 Corpus Christi OVr Church doth rightly chalenge to be the body of Christ which acknowledgeth Christ to be her only head Sauiour Redeemer Priest King Intercessor c. The Popishe church can not chalenge this name because she doth not acknowledge Christ to be theese only and wholly 2 Sponsa Christi THe spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby so doth our Church therefore she is spouse of christ But the Romish church goeth a whoringe after her owne inuentions committeth grosse idolatry and will in no wise be ruled only by the voice of Christ there she is not the spouse of Christ. 3 Vencidilecta Christo. HOwe tenderly Christ loueth his Church the true members thereof which haue receiued the first frutes of his spirit do better vnderstand in hart thā can be expressed with words howe he abhorreth the whore of Babylon the Romishe Synagoge the Scripture doth plentifully declare 4 Columba speciosa OVr Church expressing the simplicitie of a fayer doue may iustly chalenge this name But the Babylonicall Strompet your church in crafte and subtilitie is more
Peace and reconciliation wrought by Christ whereby we knowing that we are iustified by faith haue peace with god Rom. 5. But neither of these Peaces are in the church of Rome for there is dissention in doctrine and their doctrine dissenteth from the truth as for the peace of conscience is altogether vnknowen vnto Papistes euen as the iustification of Faith by which onely it is obteined 31 Domus Refugij THe house of Refuge or defence may also be applied to the Church out of which is no saluation And in whose bosome it becoÌ„meth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of god But God forbidde that any man should seeke for refuge or helpe at your church which must be ouerthrowen with such violence as a great mylstone that is cast into the Sea and shal be founde no more Apoc. 18. 32 Domus Veritatis AS our church is the piller and staie of trueth so is she also the house of Trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the Trueth it selfe Iesus Christ and his most holy Scripture In which this trueth is signed and testified But your Synagoge is the house of lyes where beside mens doctrines and traditions which are nothing but lyes there be also leaden legendes of lyes Promptuaries of lyes Festiuals of lyes and other infinite bookes of lyes 33 Societas Sanctorum HOw shoulde not our Church be the societie and fellowship of Sainctes which is sanctified and purged by the bloode of Christ which hath receiued the spirite of sanctification by which we crie Abba Father which is guided and gouerned by the most sacred and holy worde of god And how can the Popish church be the fellowship of Sainctes when she refuseth the sanctification of Christ his one oblation and sacrifice as sufficient to make them perfect which scorneth at the spirite of sanctification which can abide any thing rather than to be directed onely by God his holy worde Finally which acknowledgeth no sainctes but such as the most vnholy Pope for money doth canonize and make sainctes Proue vnto me therefore that these excellent and propre callinges can agree to any disordered companie or Congregation or to any vnknowen society of men but onely to the true Church of Christ spred throughout the whole worlde by Christes his promise and by vertue of his spirit continued in truth and grace from falshood sence Christes time and I recant AS many of these excellent names as in the worde of God or the doctors agreeing with the worde of God are propre or perteyning to the true Church of Christ so many haue I proued to be propre and perteyning to our most holy and well ordered CongregatioÌ„ And moreouer that they can in no wise be rightly applied to that most abhominable Idolatrous and disordered Synagoge of Rome which is vtterly departed from the faith geuing heede to spirites of error and doctrines of deuills being so liuely painted forth and euen pointed forth by the scripture to be that Antichristian church whereof the holy Ghost prophesieth that no man except he will wilfully be blinde can be ignorant thereof so that if you be not starke blinde and geuen vp into a reprobate sence when you consider these thinges you will recant Let any man therefore aliue answer directly and plainly without colour or fraude of wordes and vnprofitable digressions to the foresayd or any of the foresayd demandes and I shall willingly leaue the knowne Church playne way of Saluation and wander in the woodes to seeke after them and their congregation IF you had not added this conclusion we might haue conceaued some hope that vpon further instruction in such matters as troubled your conscience you would haue ben contented to be reformed after God his worde and good counsell But now you declare that you are so obstinatly bent that what so euer be proued against you you will not receiue it as truth but yeld vnto it perforce As for me Although I know there are very many which with more learning and eloquence coulde haue aunswered your demandes yet being such as they are I submitte my selfe to the iudgement of all them that be learned and godly minded whether I haue not directly and plainely without colour or fraude of wordes without all digression aunswered the same so that I doubt not but as many as are tractable and stayed vpon these doubtes onely may be fully perswaded by these not very long and yet sufficient Answers THE ENDE 1 A DEFENSE AND DECLARATION OF THE CATHOLIKE Churches doctrine touching Purgatory and prayers for the soules departed By VVILLIAM ALLEN Maister of Arte and student in Diuinitie 1 AN OVERTHROW AND CONFVTATION OF THE POPISH Churches doctrine touching Purgatory and prayers for the deade By W. FVLKE Doctor in Diuinitie 2 Mortuo ne prohibeas gratiam Eccle. 7. Hinder not the departed of grace and fauour 2 Such liberalitie as by any meanes may extende vnto them in burying their bodies honoring there memorie helping there posteritie TO THE READER 3 A Friend of mine very studious of the truth and zelous of Gods house one that learned to beleue first and then sought to vnderstand afterward which I take to be the naturall order of a christian schoole where faith must in most matters direct reason and leade the way to vnderstanding asked of me as of one whome he hartely loued and knew to be studious in such matters by my trade of life vpon what groundes the Churches doctrine and the Christian peoples faith of Purgatory and prayers for the departed stoode I aunswered him then presently as I could and shortly after as his further request was in writing somewhat more at large The which my doing though it was both rude and short yet he so measured it either by loue as it commonly happeth or else by a singular facilitie whereby he misliketh nothing that is meant well that he made it common to many moe then I would my selfe For though I was well contented that the simple people or any other should take profite or pleasure by my paine yet â—onsidering the matter to be full of difficultie and to reaâ—h to Gods iudgements in the world to come I called to my minde the saying of Nebridius who as S. Augustine reporteth of him with whom he was very familiar being much studious and inquisitiue of the secret poâ—ntes of our faith would be excedingly offended to heare a man aske of a matter of importaunce a briefe declaration his saying was that he loued not a short answere to a long question VVhereby I was me thought in a maner admonished that my treatise though it satisfied my friend and displeased not other yet could not written both hastely and briefly serue so long and large a matter I did feare with all to enter in this my lacke of yeares iudgement and knowledge into the search of such secretes as I knâ—w by that light vowe that I made of the matter before the orderly proceeding in
stand with trueth and be not repugnaunt to good life and maners And he hedgeth the diuersity of mens wittes in the exposition of scripture with in the double knot of loue which is towards God and our brother Who so euer sayth he taketh him selfe to vnderstand scripture or any parte thereof and in that meaning edifieth nothing at all the double loue of God and our neighbour he misseth the true meaning thereof But who so euer can finde out such a sense that may be commodious to the increase of charitie although it were not directly intended by the writer yet he is not harmefully deceiued nor founde a lyar therein so sayth he Now as for our matter I am well assured there dare no man though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of purgatory is hourtfull to vertuous life the only miscredit whereof hath vtterly banished all good Christian condicions or iniurious to the faith of Gods Church which is not only agreable but principally intended by the plaine letter of Gods worde and consonant to all other meanings that may be gathered by any such scripture as we haue alleaged there for and to be short receiued of so many fathers so wise and so well learned as we haue named for that purpose as a trueth most reasonable most naturall and most agreable to Gods iustice VVell then the misbeleuers can haue no shifte nor escape by the chalenge of Gods word or doctures or diuersity of sensies here is no holde for errour all I trust be safe and sure on euery side CAP. XI 1 YOu shoulde breake your olde wonte if you did not in this chapter ouerthrow something that you haue builded in that which went next going before He hath labored all this while to proue that purgatory hath grounde in the Scriptures now he cōfesseth franckely that there hath bene no text of scripture by him alleaged to proue it but it may haue an other meaninge and is sometime other wise construed of the fathers them selues I will aske no more to proue that purgatory hath no grounde in the worde of God which is not an ambiguous oracle that may be drawen euery way like a leaden rule hath but one true sence or meaning which is the right meaning of the holy Ghost For although diuerse men may geue diuerse interpretations of some obscure and harde place which all conteine no impiety or falshode yet the spirite of God meaneth but one thing and not what euery mans wit and iudgement will take it to be True it is that so longe as the proportion of faith is kept the Church beareth with them that geue wronge interpretations but the spirite of God which is in his Church alloweth not wronge interpretations for right And where as M. Allen alloweth all the interpretatiōs that the fathers haue made of the text by him alleaged as true so long as they affirmed no error he may by the same reason affirme that contradictories are true as in that saying of him that shall not come out vntill he haue payed the vttermost farthing some haue expounded that he shal be alwayes punished some that he shall not be alwayes punished One sayth he shal neuer be released an other saith he shall be released at length how is it possible that both these interpretations can be true and yet both these interpretations are founde in some writers But his suerest shifte is that the doctrine of purgatory was a knowen trueth in all ages But this is the whole matter in controuersie For how can it be taken for a knowen trueth in all ages which hath none so suer grounde in any text of scripture that cā be wrested for it but the same text may haue an other and that a true interpretation But of the antiquity of that error we shall haue better occasion hereafter to discusse in the second booke where this matter is of purpose intreated of In the meane time we wil take that which is here graunted so liberaly that there is no text of scripture alleaged for purgatory but it may be otherwise truely interpreted and not of purgatory and that the fathers haue so done by M. Allens owne confession 2 Their extreme and onely refuge is that the paine of Christes passion and his sufficient payment for our sinnes standeth not with our satisfaction or penaunce in this life nor with paine or purgatory in the next O Lorde how farre may mans malice reach that not contented to abuse their reason and the word of God in persuasion of errour but are bolde to referre Christes blessed death also to cloke together with falsehood wanton and licentious liuing Many vertuous persons haue bene prouoked by the meditation of our Sauiours sorowes to leaue the stattering welth of this worlde and to charge them selues with perpetuall vexation of body but that any did euer so rest vpon Christes passion that in respect thereof they might passe their dayes in idle welth of lust and liberty that was I trow vnhearde of before this sinnefull sect These fellowes argue thus Christ hath paide the full price of our sinnes ergo we must do no penaunce nor suffer any paine for them But S. Paule thus Christ by paine and passiō is entred into the glory of his kingdome ergo if we looke to be his fellow heires or partakers of his glory we must suffer affliction with him and ioyne with him in paines and passion S. Peter also thus Christ hath suffered leauing you an example that ye should follow his steppes therefore all his blessed life passed in paine must be a perpetuall sturring vp of toleration gladde suffering for his name againe Iohn our maisters messenger prepared the way of Christes death and doctrine by worthy fructes of penaunce and that was the beginning of Christes owne preaching therfore I dare be bolde to say these thinges are not abrogated by the teaching of the Gospel nor voide by Christs passion which onely maketh our workes and merites to be of that value and acceptation that all Catholike men counte them of which els to the satisfying for sinne shoulde be nothing auaileable nor to the atteining of heauen any thing profitable But it is foly to make ouer many wordes in a case so plaine seeing the example of both God and good mens dealing abundantly proueth mans punishment either temporall or eternall to stande well with the excellent value of our Sauiours death For if paine for sinne were iniurious to Christes death then the holy prophet Dauid that liued long in greuous penaunce were iniurious to his Lordes death then the Church were iniurious to her owne spouse his death that chargeth all offenders with penaunce then God him selfe were iniurious to his owne sonnes death that sharply punisheth sinne forgeuen then Christ him selfe were iniurious to his owne death that both by his example and holy preaching did euer commend sharpe penaunce and paine These
incredulity to blaspheme these peculiar steppes of the spirite S. Cyprian complaineth of such misbeleuers in his time that woulde not agree to the trueth after especiall reuelations had of the same VVhich kinde of men he noteth in the latter ende of an epistle by these wordes Quanquam sciam omnia ridicula visiones ineptas quibusdam videri sed vtique illis qui malunt contra sacerdotes credere quam sacerdoti Sed nihil mirum quando de Ioseph fratres sui dixerunt ecce somniator ille venit Although sayth he I know right well howe litle accompte they make of visions which they esteeme as mere trieftes But yet it is such onely that had rather beleeue against then with Gods priestes And no meruaill that is seeing good Iosephs owne brethern saide by him in mockage Lo yender comes the dreamer So did they scoffe at him because he had more familiarity with the spirite of God then the other had 4 Now followeth a large and needelesse apologie of visions and reuelations the doctrine of which is briefely and plainely set forth in the worde of God what so euer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although not a man from purgatory but an angell from heauen were the bringer of it Then seeing the doctrine of purgatory is blasphemous against the merites of Christes death though all those fables of visions that are fayned to defende it were true stories yet are we nothing moued with them I passe ouer the impudency of this man which is not ashamed to compare so many thousand fables or illusions of Sathan as are reported to the maintaining of purgatory to the reuelation of S. Paule and the Apocalypse of S. Iohn or the appering of Moses and Elias with christ They may be in deede a great nombre of them not vnlike to that spirite of Samuell which was raised by the witche which as Augustine affirmeth and M. Allen dare not simply deny was the spirite of the Deuill him selfe 5 Now as the ioyes of heauen Paradise with the tormeÌ„t of sinners and other secrets of the next life haue bin straungly represented to some one or other in all ages by sundry meanes most expedient to our saluation and most seemely to the wisedom and will of the worker so certainely no article was euer with more force of spirite or more graue authority set forth sence the beginning of Christian religion then this one of Purgatory Neuer nation was conuerted to the faith but it had this trueth not only taught by worde but by miracle also confirmed And namely in that aboundant floode of faith when it pleased God almost at once to spreade his name amongest all these contryes it was thought most necessary to his diuine wisedome together with the true worship of his name to plant in all faithfull mens heartes the awe and necessary feare of that greeuous torment for the reuenge and iust iudgement of wicked life This greeuous payne was vttered by the very sufferers them selues as we may see in the notable histories of Paschasius and Iustus reported by S. Gregories owne mouth This greeuous punishment was agayne declared by Furseus who as the reuerent Bede reporteth had the beholding of the eternall blesse the euerlasting miâ—ery and the temporall payne of the next life Drichelmus also by the ordinaunce of God taken from amongst mortall men into the state of the next world after he had seene likewise the terrible iudgement of God practised euen vpon the elect was restored to life againe in our owne nation and was a witnesse worthy of all credit of this same truth not only by his word wherof he was so sparing all his life time after that he would not vtter this same mistery but with singular care and respect of the persons intent that asked him thereof but namely by passing great penaunce and incredible chastising of his body which proceded of the sensible knowledge that he had of the paynes prepared And being asked sometime as holy Bede sayth why he so tormented him selfe in the willing toleration of extreme heate or contrary cold both of frost and snow he made aunswere simply and shortly Frigidiora ora ego vidi austeriora ego vidi Ah maisters I haue seene colder I haue seene sharper Meaning by the vnspeakeable paines of Purgatory The whole history of his visions with many the like may be reade in the Ecclesiasticall history of our owne nation written by as faithfull a witnesse as euer was borne in our lande of such vertue that he woulde begile no man willingly of so great wisedome that he woulde report no tale nor triefle rashly of such grace and learning that he was well able to disâ—erne a false fable and superstitious illusion from a true and diuine reuelation For as it were foly and mere vanity to geue credit to euery spirite so to condemne a spirite or reuelation or any worke of Gods finger approued by the Church of God in which there hath euer bene the gifte of discerning spirites it is properly a sinne against the holy Ghost And because euery man hath not that gifte as I woulde not counsell any man ouer lightely to geue credit to euery priuat spirite and peculiar vision because they may come of wicked intentes and sinister motions so I thinke it were good in feare reuerence and humility to commit the discerning of such thinges to the spirite and iudgement of Gods Church VVith the belefe of euery peculiar mans phantasie we are not charged with humble submission of our whole life and belefe to the Church of Christ there are we especially charged And because there is nothing reported either in the workes of S. Gregory or in Bede or in Damascen or in any other the like concerning the paines either of the elect or the damned in the next life but as much hath bene vttered before by all the holy and learned fathers in great agony of minde and feare of the saide iudgement we may be the more bolde to thinke the best or rather we are bounde to thinke the best of that spirite which so conformably agreeth with the doctrine of the Church and faith of all the fathers There can no man say more of Purgatory nor more plainely then S. Ambrose being in a maner a frade him selfe of wasting away in that horrible tormeÌ„t none more effectually then S. Augustine that confesseth there is no earthely paine comparable vnto it none more fearefully then Eusebius Emissenus who termeth it skaulding waues of fire none more pithely then Paulinus that calleth those places of iudgements Ardentes tenebras burning darknesse More peculiarly may the circumstances and condicion of that state by God be reueled but the trueth thereof can not be more plainely declared nor better proued These babes feared no bugges I warraunt you neither picked they Purgatory out of Scipio his dreame
in purgatory after he had bene there but one day told the Angell to his face that he was no Angell but a deceiuer affirming that he had bene there many yeares A monke that dyed without absolution in the absence of the Abbot after his death was absolued and enioyned for penance to tarry in purgatory vntill his body were buried whereat he cryed so horribly that his voyce was heard all ouer the abbey saying O vnmercifull man hast thou commaunded me to tarry so long in purgatory A Bishop suspēded a priest for saying euery day masse of requiem but as the same Prelate went ouer a churchyard the dead arose euery man with such tooles as they occupied in their life threatning him that he should dye for it he did not restore them their soule priest Againe one that promised his brother to say masse for him immediatly after his death made hast to performe his promise as soone as the breath was out of his hody but when masse was done his brother appeared to him saying O vnfaithfull brother thou hast well deserued the curse of God for me thou hast let me lye in torments these 20 yeares and neither thou nor any of my brethren would vouchsafe to say one masse for me If these and such like narrations of which the popish homilies and other writings are crammed full were true reuelations there were small patience mekenes or loue in some of the purgatory penitentionaries Yet M. Allen sayth these are the inferior partes which boweth their knee and reuerenceth the name of Iesus as the Apostle sayth Philip. 2. For those that be in the deepe hell can not prayse nor confesse his blessed name as the Prophet sayth Although that which Dauid sayth be true of the damned spirites yet he speaketh generally of all them that are deade which can not prayse God in his Church as they doe that are aliue But S. Paule to the Philip speaketh not of any willing obedience or ioyfull confession of them that be in hell but of that which is due to the maiestye of Christ and enforced euen from his enemies For if none should bow to Christ but they that honour him willingly and praise his holy name cherefully this text should not be verified of so many 1000. Turkes Iewes and Infidels that now blaspheme his holy name but in the day of iudgement vnto which time the perfect accomplishment of this prophecy is referred they with all the deuills in hell shal be brought on their knees and acknowledge that Iesus is the Lord to the glory of God and their eternal confusion And euen now already S. Iames teacheth that the deuils doe tremble But if onely the soules in purgatory were ment by them that are vnder the earth at the last day when Christ shall haue his chiefe glory and purgatory as the Papistes confesse shall be abolished then there should be none in the infernall partes that should bow vnto Iesus and acknowledge his glorious maiestie according to the prophecy of Esay which S. Paule expoundeth of the last iudgement Rom. 14. And therefore although M. Allens affirmation of godly men to haue bene in the lower partes from the beginning of the world vnto the end of the same were true as it is most false yet it would not aunswere the verity of the prophecy when at that time there shoulde be none in which time the prophecy should chiefly be fulfilled but of what forehead or mouth doth this procede that he affirmeth that Abrahams bosome may appeare by Scripture to haue bene in the lower roomes though separate from hell His reason seemeth to be because all places of punishment after this life be in Scripture called Inferna that is hell or the lowest places The Scripture teacheth that Abrahams bosome was a place of comfort separate from hel not with a small border like the popish limbus but with an infinite distance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from whence the rich glutton looking vp saw Lazarus a farre of in blessed estate when he him selfe was in torments But hereof I haue spoken sufficiently before 3 Therefore I shall desire all Catholike readers as they beleue this graue sentence of God to come and feare the rodde of our fathers correction that they preuent the same by lowly submitting them selues vnto the chastisement of our kinde mother the Church VVho with teares in this her contempt yet besecheth the children of hir owne how shoulde that they woulde rather willingly submit them selues to her meeke wande in this life thē against their willes to the heuy scourge of their angry and iustly moued father in the worlde to come The penaunce which her ministers do charge vs with all is of it selfe not greate yet accepted with humility and competent dolour of hearte in this time of grace it may for the most parte if it any thing be aunswerable to the faultes or holpen by our owne zele either wholy discharge vs or much ease abbridge the paine to come Let vs not sticke to adde vnto the prescribed paine by the priest our pastour some such fructes of repentaunce as may more and more wash vs from our sinnes let vs make frendes of wicked Mammon Let vs redeme our sinnes by almes and mercy towardes the poore Let vs iudge our selues with earnest fasting aboundaunce of vnfained teares often watching and continuall praying then doubtlesse we shall not be iudged of our Lorde Let vs detest this abominable flattering security which this sinnefull schole so earnestly exhorteth vs vnto It is the deuill no doubt that woulde haue man passe his time in pleasure that he may be reserued to his euerlasting paine A small remedy by mans freedome in Gods grace here willingly accepted may cleere acquitte vs of great griefe to come Loue alone and earnest zele of Gods house in this multitude of forsakers I dare say shall couer a numbre of sinnes and that which by nature is but duety in this time of temptation I take it to be greate merit Let vs be circumspect therefore and worke whiles the day is here for in the night of the next worlde sinners can not helpe them selues nor worke one moment towards their owne deliuery or release 3 Once againe he desireth Catholikes not to doubt of this doctrine but to preuent the paine appointed by their angry father with patient receiuing the chastisment of their kinde mother whose meke wande in this life they were better to susteine then the heauy scourge of their iustely moued father after this life In this proper antithesis the kindnesse of the mother is preferred before the anger of the father yea the mercy of the mother is commended aboue the iustice of the father It appereth by this that the Papistes vnderstand not what they say when they call God father who taketh vnto him that name to declare his mercy towarde vs and not his iustice his loue and not his wrath to rewarde vs and not to punish vs who though he chastise his
that was the worst and cursed was he that was counted the best then is our case most carefull then are we worse then all other nations that neuer receiued the name of Christ then are we worse then we were before our conuersion then to be shorte there is no religion no Christ no God no hope of saluation 2 I am content to staye with you and ponder as much as is meete the conuersion of the Saxones vnto the faith of christ And first I saye that you reason both falsely and foolishly to proue that either all opinions were true or else all false that the Saxones receiued at there first conuersion For though prayer for the deade and other superstitious opinions then receiued were false yet doth it not follow that all that then was taught them for Christianity was false For although Augustine had bene voyde of all true articles of the faith yet the byshoppes and christian teachers of the Brytish nation in whose ayde they required and at last obtayned to the conuerting of the Saxones reteyned the foundation of fayth Iesus Christ and the onely sacrifice of his death And this was the fayth that was receiued euen of the Saxones as appeareth by those homylies that yet remaine in the Saxon tongue appointed to be reade vnto the people for their instruction and namely in that printed Saxone homylie which was appointed to be reade at Easter where in is declared not onely the faith of the Church at that time concerning the sacrifice of Christ his death but also that heresie of popish transubstantiation and the reall presence of Christes body in the sacrament is pithily confuted And therefore it is altogither vntrue that you say M. Allen that they did institute a sacrifice to the defacing of our redemption as you do that they did adore the sacrament as the natural body of Christ as you doe or counted it a â—â—opitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and the deade as you doe although they vsed vnprofitable prayers for the deade and many other superstitions Neither doth it follow that all that taught or beleued those errours so long as they builded vpon Christ the only foundation haue perished or that all they taught was false because some thing was vntrue or that God hath deceaued vs with fayned miracles which Satan hath shewed to set vp the kingdom of Antichrist euen in the temple of God with all lying signes and wonders 2. Thes. 2. To conclude no truth is false no vertue is vice no good thing is euill because all was not true all was not vertue all was not good that was receiued and practised among them 3 All which things if they repugne to common sense and reason and to the comfortable hope of our saluation which we haue receiued from God by Christ Iesus and the assured testimony of the spirite of God that we be a part of his chosen Church sanctified in his holy name by the word of truth and life which we by the ordinary ministery of man haue receiued signes and wonders confirming their calling and doctrine then this religion which they planted first in our country must nedes be in all points both holy true and accepâ—able vnto god Then as by that religion our fathers were ingraffed first into Christes body misticall which is the Church in which till this day they haue kept the high way to saluation so who so euer forsaketh this or any principall article or braunch thereof and so leaueth that Church into which we first entered at our conuersion he leaueth assuredly life and saluation and without all doubt euerlastingly perisheth Amongest which pointes of doctrine our aduersaries can not deny but the saying masse and offering for the deade the almes and prayers for the departed was taught with the first and proued by miracles with the rest The which either to deny were ouer much discredit of the antiquitie and plaine impudencie or else to attribute them to the deuills working were open vntollerable blasphemy 3 There is nothing that you saye in this parte or that you can say in this respect to proue that the religion here receiued was in all pointes holy true and acceptable to God because it was in some and those the chiefe but it may be sayed by the nations of the Gothes and Vandalles which were first conuerted from hethenish idolatry to the profession of the name of Christ by the Arrian heretikes to defend that there religion was in all pointes holy true and acceptable to God or by them that were conuerted by the Donatistes Nouations or any other heretikes For although the Arrians were blasphemous heretikes yet they tought many thinges truely and soundly concerning the faith of christianitie And therefore no more then the religion of the Arrians who first turned those nations was true in all pointes though it were in many no more I saye was euery article that was tought vnto the Saxons which were conuerted by superstitious Romanistes in all pointes true notwithstanding that many things and the principall were true So much therefore as may be iustified by the worde of God of that doctrine is holy true and acceptable to God but that which is contâ—ary to the doctrine of the holy Scriptures is neither receiued from God nor Christ neither hath it any testimony of his spirite by what presumptuous words oâ— apperance of signes and wounders so euer it be vttered Neither is it any greater offence for the English men to renounce the error of praying for the deade or abusing the communion to the similitude of a sacrifice or any other superstition then or at any time after receiued then it was for the Gothes or Vandalles to forsake the hereticall and blasphemous opinions of the Arrians by whome they were first perswaded to reuerence the name of Christ or for any other that were turned by any heretikes to forsake their first errors and geue place to the trueth after reueiled vnto them And whereas you affirme that we can not deny but that Masse offering almes and prayer for the deade were taught with the first and proued by miracle with the rest we may be bolde to deny that they were at the first taught so grossely as they be now maintained impudently And as for miracles I meane such as were prophecied to be the efficacy of error in the kingdome of Antichrist we will confesse that these and like errors had alwayes great plenty to establish them as they which had no authoritie out of the holy Scriptures to approue them 4 Yea this doctrine hath brought the Church to this bewtifull order in all degrees as we haue seene All the noble monuments not onely in our common wealth but through Christes Church doe beare sufficient testimony of our first faith herein This doctrine as the whole world knoweth founded all Bishoprikes builded all Churches raised all Oratories instituted all Collegies indued all Schooles mainteyned all hospitalles set forward all workes of charity and religion of what
sacrifice for the deade was instituted by Christ at his last Supper which the holy Ghost afterwarde did secretly suggest vnto the Apostles and they as secretly deliuered to the nations For no worde nor halfe worde therof is conteined in their writings which are to vs the only true testimony of their tradition Thus haue these heretikes no grounde of their heresie but shifte from the worde of scripture to secret tradition from tradition to the meaning of scripture from the plaine meaning of scripture to the vnconstant opinions of men from the variable and contrary opinions of men in times past to their owne obstinacy and continuaunce in error in time present yet he woundreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleere light of the trueth If Satan transforming him selfe into an angell of light hath so dasled their eyes that they can not see the true light they are iustly plagued because they haue refused the faithfull testimony of Gods worde which only geueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith and geuen heede to spirites of errors and doctrines of deuils by whom they are blinded in vtter darkenesse though it be with false imagination and dreaminge of light Yet see the confidence of the man he is suer that if we were examined of our conscience what triall of this doubt we woulde wishe there is none we coulde name but his cause might well abide it Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience longe agoe that the onely authority of Gods worde written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters if you were as desirous to satisfie vs as you pretend and as able to performe as you are to promise we should haue hearde before this time some sentence of scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the deade not standing vppon voluntary collection but either in plaine wordes or necessary conclusion For there is nothing that we are bounde to knowe nothing that we are bounde to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessary collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Beside this you shoulde bring a great preiudice against vs if you coulde bringe the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after christ But neither of these doe we looke to see we before see with our eyes the certainety of those thinges whereof now we contend in words and writinges The heretikes of our time and country be yet further vrged vvith the practise of prayers for the deceased their contrary communion is compared vvith the olde vsage of Celebration They are ashamed of the first original of their Christian faith they are vveary of their ovvne seruice they are kepte in ordre by the vvisedome of the Ciuile magistrates and are forced flatly to refuse all the doctors CAP. XII 1 THe chiefe argument that the Church of God vsed in olde time against Pelagius the enemy of Gods grace was this that at the holy altar the Priest prayed to God for to conuert heretikes and infidells to the faith and euill liuers wicked conuersation to vertue and honesty the which prayers had bene to no purpose if the grace of God had not borne the principall stroke in the chaunging of mans hearte But being assured of this as a grounde that the prayer of the Priest in the whole Churches name at the altar can not but beare singular strength and trueth it is necessarily concluded that seeing the publike minister so prayeth that we must needes beleue that God hath mans hearte in his hande and may turne it to the belefe of his worde or loue of his will as he liketh and listeth notwithstanding the perfect freedome of mans will which by Gods grace is neuer perished but alwayes perfected And in this assured foundation of the publike prayers S. Augustine who then was the souldier of grace so triumphed against one Vitalis a Pelagian that he ringeth him this peale Exerce contra orationes ecclesiae disputationes tuas quaÌ„do audis sacerdotem dei ad altare exhortantem populum dei orare pro incredulis subsanna pias voces ecclesiae dic te non facere quod hortatur homo in Carthagiensi eruditus ecclesia etiam beatissimi Cypriani librum de oratione dominica condemna Holde on fellow exercise thy contentious talke against the vsuall prayers of Gods Church and wheÌ„ thou hearest the Priest of God at his altar exhort the people to praye for the misbeleuers scoffe at the holy wordes and make him aunswere thou wilt not pray as he biddes thee And being brought vp in the Church of Carthage condemne withall S. Cyprians worke vpon our Lordes prayer wherein he teacheth the same I tary nowe the longer on this point that thou mayest learne to kepe an heretike at the bay and to fasten thy stroke so surely vpon him that which waye so euer he shifte he shall beare thy blowe vpon his necke and shoâ—lders It is not for our cause taken in hand that I now so much trauell for that is longe sith made sure enough for all the deuills in Hell or their followers in earth But I woulde in this one example of praying for the deade geue the studious a tast of all such wayes as the trueth of all other pointes in controuersy may be both surely defended and so plainly proued and vpholden that the aduersary shall not be able to say baffe vnto any one of the least of all the groundes wherevpon Gods trueth standeth Handeling then our good men as S. Augustine did the like say to them boldely that the same Church which exhorteth the people to pray for the misbeleuers doth geue vs example to pray for the soules departed Vitalis and Pelagius were heretikes for withstanding the one they must needes be as very heretikes for refusing the other It was the greatest extremitie that Pelagius coulde be driuen to by force of Augustines argument to mocke at the priests prayer made at Gods altar and that which then was so foule an absurditie for those false teachers can it be borne out of ours with honestie Vitalis the Pelagian had a foule foyle by S. Augustine â—hen he charged him with the contempt of S. Cyprians authoritie Byshop of Carthage being him selfe a â—hield of the same Church And shall they goe away so smouthly nowe a dayes not only with contempe of their owne English patrons and Apostles but with impudent deniall of all the doctors at once that euer were gydes of Gods Church sith Christes faith was taught It was of Augustine counted a singular arrogancy not to praye in that forme as Gods Church and ministers at the altar both praye them selues and exhorte other to pray and shall it be such prayse for our preachers to erect a new seruice to be checke mate with the olde to controele the rites and vsages of solemne supplication in all countries Christianed and with the
not nowe that they renounce all that helpe of Councells Doctors which with vauntes they clamed before whiles they impudently make a diuision or contrarietie betwixt them and the holy scripture And we take it at their hand as an open acknowledging of their lacke there where they pretended greatest store The which thinge if they likewise would confesse openly in pulpit and in plaine words as they meane nothing lesse when they shew the people that they were but men that they might erre that they followed the custome of the common people in their time that they are not to be receiued but where they agree with scripture that them selues must try whether they be consonant to the word of God or no if they would I say without such cloked wordes bouldly pronounce as Luther their maister did that they cared not for a hundreth Augustines or Hieroms that they esteemed not the consent of all nations that they would be tryed by the iudgement of no coūcell that they would purposely runne contrary to the Councells decree in all causes that they would take that for thonely truth which is conteined in the holy Scriptures and that for Scripture which them selues thought good and last of all that for the true meaning which agreed best to the vpholding of error and heresie then would the people leaue these lewde masters on the plaine field which now they keepe with them one while by the praises of the doctors and antiquitie and somewhiles by thabasing of them againe and deceitfull referring all to the onely Scriptures to which they say credit may safely be giuen where the doctors without daunger can not be further followed then as they be not found to disagree with Gods word So that the cause seemeth now to be driuen to this ishue in the eyes of thignorant whether men should rather beleue the Scipture or the doctors the word of God that can not be false or the fathers that were but men and therfore might erre deceiue and be deceiued 3 But that you loue to spende many wordes about a thinge of naught you might haue spoken as much in three wordes as you haue done in three leaues But that I maye breefely cut of your lauesh lippe labor whereas you vse in deede as greate impudencie as you charge vs withall in wordes first you would make our chalenge contrary to it self as though one while we boast of the doctors and then being driuen from them we flie to the Scriptures They that dayly heare our preaching with any diligence peruse our writing can beare vs witnes that you doe falsely shamefully belie vs For we stand for authoritie onely to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures and whatsoeuer we say of fathers councells or the most auncient primitiue Church it is either for testimony of our truth or for conuiction of your lying For it is you M. Allen the Papists that boast of all antiquitie all fathers all doctors all councells all Churches to be all togither on your side among whom as we will not deny but you haue some Patrones of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest of your heresies And therefore this ishue is rightly ioyned and without any Ieofayle vpon this point that the Scripture is to be credited rather then the doctors the word of God rather then the writings of men 4 But this is not the state of our controuersie nor of any question betwixt the Catholikes and them And that they knowe full well though they craftely cloke it with chaunge of wordes for we acknowledge most gladly that if any Doctor Prophet Apostle or Angell if it were possible preach vnto vs any thing against the word and truth of Gods Scripture that he is accursed of God and to be reiected of men But here is the stand and the point of all our doubtes in generall note it well Maister Protestaunt whether the auncient fathers some of them being in Christes time diuers of them scholars to his Apostles many within one hundreth or two of yeares afterward most of them more thē a thousand yeares since I speake of such as we haue named in our cause all wonderfully learned as well in the knowledge of the secretes of Gods mysteries as the tongues all mercifully endued with great giftes and graces all exceeding studious in the Scriptures all hauing the same testament and written worde of God that we now haue all vsing meruelous diligence in the conference of diuers places for the true meaning and vnderstanding of the same all hauing feruent zeale in teaching the Christian people all at times appoynted resorting togither from diuers partes of the world to some one general search in which by humble conference togither and prayer they doubted not to obteyne the spirite of truth as it was by our Maister promised the question is now then I say whether those holy men thus holpen by nature diligence time and grace be not more like to vnderstand the Scripture then these men which either lacke all these helpes or most of them Secondly it followeth thereupon whether we should rather giue credit to them affirming purgatory and prayers for the deade to be not onely consonant but plainely proued by the Scriptures or else to our new aduersaries auouching these thinges to be against the Scripture VVhereby you see we must not nowe reason whether we ought to beleue the doctors or the Scriptures better but whether for the true sense we must not beleue the olde fathers better then these newe fooles 4 In wordes you graunt our ishue because you knowe that all the cuntry of christians would otherwise go against you but in deede you deny it For the ishue which you would ioyne vpon is both captious and doubtfull Captious because it disioyneth those thinges which are not to be separated namely the Scripture and the true meaning thereof Doubtfull because it standeth vpon a likelyhoode and not vpon a certeinty For thus you ioyne whether the olde doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestants I haue aunswered before we wil make no comparison with them Neither will we challenge the likelyhood to vs neither will we leaue it to them for whether so euer we doe we shall be neuer the more certeine of the truth But this will we set downe as a most certeine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same spirite by which they were written What then shall we arrogate the spirite as proper to vs and deny it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirite we humbly thanke his maiestie so haue we How then is the spirite of God contrary to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirite and both Martyres yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture what then there remaineth but this second