Diuell him selfe dyd alleadge scripture against our sauiour Christe and dyd applie it as rightlie as Bonifacius the eight did when after he had one day shewed him self in his Pontificalibus that is his Popely attyre and the next day in the robes of an Emperour he sayd thus Ecce duo gladij hic Beholde heere are two swordes Another of your Popes setting his foote vppon the necke of Fredericus the Emperour sayd Super Aspidem Basiliscum ambulabis conculcabis Leonem Draconem Upon the Aspe and Basiliske shalt thou walke and vpon the Lyon and Dragon shalt thou treade And surely as often as these wresters of the Scriptures doo speake vnto vs the Diuell dooth as Vincentius sayth speake by theyr mouthes c. But héere I leaue your Vincentius and you together tyll at some more leysure I may reade him ouer I can not thinke that hée dooth handle that place of Mathewe so grosely as you would make vs beléeue that he dooth But though he doo the matter is not great For there is none that hath any sence or féeling in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures but the same may easily sée that when our sauiour Christe sayde Non tentabis DominuÌ„ Deum tuum Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God He had a farre other meaning then that which you woulde make vs beléeue that Vincentius dooth gather of these wordes Yea Athens I dyd first write this aunswer I haue read ouer Vincentius and haue founde that you doo belye him But as one mistrusting the authoritie of your Vincentius you clap in the necke of it one sentence of S. Austine but you tell vs not where we shall finde it But if those wordes be Austines as it may be that they are they wyll and doo serue much better against you and your sort then they can against vs. And thus much to your fift Reason which I haue called Fraudulent for the cause afore mencioned ¶ The â—ixt Reason YOur sixt and last Reason most weyghtie of all is this Because if we wyll refuse the authoritie of the Churches absolute iudgement vppon the scriptures true sence We shall séeme plainely to deny the holy Ghost to be the spirite of trueth c. This Reason I haue called Fanaticall For that in making so great an accoumpt of this Reason you séeme not to be in your right wittes What bedlem would abuse the wordes written in the fowretéene of Iohn as you doo to prooue that because our Sauiour Christe dyd praye for and obtayne and dyd giue the holy Ghost the spirite of trueth to his holy Apostles and dyd promise that the same should remayne with them for euer and instruct them in all trueth therfore the same holy Ghost must néedes be and remayne styll in that Church which agréeeth with the Church of the Apostles onely in name and is no more lyke the Apostles Church in doctrine and manners then blacke is lyke to whyte and God is lyke the Diuell The Wise man sayth that Wisedome wyll not enter into a malicious soule neyther wyll she dwell in a body that is subiect to sinnes For the holy spirite of Wisedome flyeth from deceite c. And shall we thinke that the holy Spirite of trueth hath bene and wyll be styll amongst such a rabble of Popes Cardinalles and other Catholiques as your owne Histories make mencion of that haue besides theyr beastly lyfe made decrées directlie contrarie to Gods commaundements Yea shall we thinke that the Spirite of Christe dwelleth amongst those Catholiques that at this day doo in the twentie and fiue Session of the Councell of Trent pronounce all such accurssed as doo shewe them selues eyther by doctrine or otherwise to mislyke with the hauing of Images in Churches seeing the same is dyrectly contrarie to the second commaundement of God Shall we thinke that the holy spirite of God dyd guide those your Catholique Fathers when they dyd in the same Session blanche the counterfeyting of Gods Maiestie by an Image And thinke you that Esay the Prophet if he were now lyuing would allowe your applying of his wordes to such Catholiques and to theyr doinges séeing the same Prophete dooth so earnestly speake against the making of Images scorning bothe them and theyr makers and plainly affyrming that they be good for nothing The Scribes the Pharisies the high Priestes and Doctors of the lawe might as well haue mainteyned theyr corrupt Doctrine and Traditions against Christ and his Apostles euen by those words of Esay that you applie for your purpose as you may now by the same mayntaine all the corrupt Doctrines and Traditions of your Catholiques For they dyd then perswade them selues as you doo now that the promise was made to them could not but be perfourmed to them And that therfore Christe and his fauters were Scismatiks and méete to be excommunicated as by them they were in déede and as by you we be now But to our great and vnspeakable comfort our sauiour Christe hath foretolde vs of this saying These wordes haue I spoken vnto you that you should not be offended They wyll excommunicate you and the time will come wherin whosoeuer shall hyll you will think that he dooth God good seruice And that promise also that you would sâ—me to reioyce so much inâ—ia in déede as coÌ„fortable to vs as you would haue men thinke that it is to you We knowe that the Spirite of trueth departeth not from Christe in his members the Church the true and vnfeyned Catholique Church Neyther doo the wordes that the heauenly Father put into the mouth of Christ his onely begotten Sonne depart out of his mouth the true Catholique Church and yet dare not we make that Church Iudge of that worde For they were not put into her mouth to that ende that shée should iudge them but that shée should in all her doinges be iudged tryed and directed by them As sottishe as you say our opinion is we are so farre from holding that euerie priuate man may haue leaue to be his owne Iudge in vnderstanding the Scripture that we doo not graunt it to the best learned but doo leaue it to him that béeing with humilitie of minde sought in the Scriptures wyll be found there yea euen by Crafts men such as was Peter and his fellow fisher men For he respecteth not mens persons nor Occupations And vnto them that so séeke him there whether they be many or fewe he wyll open the sence of vnderstading that they may vnderstand as much as he knoweth to be méete for them to vnderstand And such as haue that humble spirit wyll not search for nor shewe them selues destrous to knowe any more Well now you conclude vpon that which you say we must néedes graunt that is that the Church is our mother as Scripture sayth Well I am glad that you are now become a Scripture man But I pray you where is that Scripture written that sayth that your Catholique Church
appearyng to them afterwardes as thei were altogether in Ierusalem He telleth them that of necessitie all muste bee fulfilled that had beene written concernyng him either in the lawe of Moyses in the Prophets or in the Psalmes And that thei might vnderstande the Scriptures he did then open their vnderstandynges Whereby it appeareth that it was not the hardnesse and deepenesse of the misteries wherewith as you saie the Scripture is full that helde them from the vnderstandyng thereof but the dulnesse of their owne vnderstandyng because thei were as yet but carnall and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the spirite of God as Sainct Paule hath written The naturall man doeth not perceiue these thynges that doe belong to the spirite of God Not that we bee of our selues as of our selues sufficient to thinke any thyng but our sufficiencie is of God c. Now for that whiche you haue cited out of Austine concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus I would gladly knowe of you what Honoratus it was that you speake of One there was of that name to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120 Epistle But that Honoratus was not like to vse any suche speeche to S. Austine Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epistle vse any suche speeche to hym as you saie he did But in the laste ende of the Epistle Saint Austine sheweth hym self to be of an other mynde then by your reporte your Austine seemed to be For he saieth thus Habes librum si prolixum tamen quantum existimo non superfluum c. Thou haste here a Booke saieth Sainct Austine whiche though it be long yet as I thinke it is not superfluous But doe thou loue the Ecclesiasticall writinges also and thou shalte not finde many thynges which thou shouldest neede to seeke for at my handes But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng if thou doe also purely praie vnto the Lorde that is the giuer of all good thinges thou shalt learne throughly all those thynges or vndoubtedly very many of those thinges that are worth the knowyng rather by his inspiration then by any mannes admonition Although euen in the same thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admonish vs well what other thing doe we then testifie that we haue an inwarde light that doeth teache vs and is our Maister Thus farre Austine Lette your freendes iudge whether it be likely that this Austine and this Honoratus would vse suche speeches the one to the other as you reporte yours to haue doen. One other Honoratus there was to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161 Epistle This man helde with Donatus and in that Epistle Saint Austine doeth exhorte hym to render a reason quietly in writing wherefore the name of the Church should at that time remaine onely among the Donatists There was also a thirde Honoratus to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179 Epistle This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Bishop and doeth instruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng persecution wherein he vseth not one worde that maie bee wrested to that meanyng that you haue reported But you will saie there is yet one other to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke De vtilitate credendi Suche an Honoratus there was in deede But when you shall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudgement you shall not finde that Austine to bee of your mynde Not muche before that place that you take holde of writing of the truth of the Scripture and noting that we ought to loue the Scripture before wee learne it he writeth thus Quicquid est mihi crede in Scripturis illis altum diuinum est c. Beleeue me saieth Saint Austine whatsoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures the same is deepe and diuine truthe is in it altogether and a discipline that is moste meete for the refreshyng and restoryng of myndes and vndoubtedly so moderated that euery manne maie drawe therehence enough to satiffie him self if so be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly sorte as true Religion requireth And immediatly before the place that you seeme to take holde of he By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the sixteene of Mathew ye maintaine the grosse errour of buildyng Christ his Churche vpon Peter the man and not vpon Christ the Rocke not withstandyng that the best of the Catholique Doctors haue written to the contrarie Yea and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones with absolute power for your Pope to doe what he will without checke or controulement I might here take iust occasion to rehearse all those errors that haue bene and are holden by your sorte and ascribe them all to that whiche S. Austine speaketh of in the wordes that you cite that is That by your sort the good Scriptures are not well vnderstanded But studiyng to be breefe I passe them ouer To proceede in mine Aunswere you eatche holde of S. Peter And he must needes helpe you to face out your lye If S. Peter will haue your fauour he must needes beare you recorde that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe misteries as you haue taught S. Austine to saie But when the place that you cite shalbe weighed with indifferent iudgement it will be founde that S. Peters meanyng was not as you take is to be Sainct Peter hath written thus But wee looke for newe heauens and a newe earth accordyng to his promise wherein dwelleth righteousnesse Wherefore beloued seeyng that ye looke for suche thinges thee dilligent that ye maie be founde of hym in peace without spot and blamelesse And suppose that the long sufferyng of our Lorde is saluation euen as our beloued brother Paule accordyng to the wisedome giuen vnto hym wrote to you as one that in al his Epistles speaketh of those thinges amongste whiche some thynges are harde to be vnderstanded whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnstable doe peruerte as thei doe also other Scriptures to their owne destruction If you reade these wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue wherein the Apostle wrote them you shall finde that the Relatiue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is of the newter gender and cannot by the rules of Grammer agree with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche is of the feminine gender Wherefore it must be Englished thus In or amongst which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of and not in those Epistles that he wrote as in your application of Peters woordes you seeme to vnderstande him to meane But peraduenture you haue no good likyng of the Greeke Text neither of our Latine translations I will therefore set doune the wordes of S. Peter euen as I finde them in the translation that is allowed in the Counsell of Trent and as thei be writtē in an old written Bible that I haue in Parchment written I knowe not how many hundred yeares past Thus are thei written in the Bible Propter quod charissimi haec
It was the pleasure of God to set in the scriptures a sure Bulwarke against deceytfull errours against which Scriptures no man that is any way wylling to séeme to be a Christian dare be bolde to speake As golde by the toutch stone so are the spirites tryed by the Scripture And euerie one that is skilfull in the scriptures that is that can by conferring of one scripture with an other finde out the meaning of the holy ghost in the scriptures may be as bolde to vse the scripture in the tryall of spirites as the Goldsmith may be to vse the toutch stone in the tryall of mettalles And if ye thinke that the conference of one Scripture with an other be not the surest way to attaine to the true meaning of the Scriptures looke Saint Austine De Doctrina Christiana Lib. 3. Cap. 26. And thus much for aunswer to your second Reason which I haue called False The third Reason THe thirde Reason that mooueth you to thinke that the Scriptures are to be iudged by the Church is for that S. Peter hath written That no Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation c. This Reason I haue called Foolishe for that foolishly you doo rushe into the Epistle of Saint Peter and report his wordes otherwise then he wrote them and then you your selfe doo make a priuate interpretation of them contrarie to the decrée made in the Councell of Trent whereof you would séeme to make greatest accoumpt The words of Saint Peter as they doo stande in that translation that the Coūcell of Trent hath allowed are these Hoc primùm intelligentes quód omnis prophaetia scripturae propria interpretatione non fit Vnderstanding this thing first that no prophesie of the scripture is made by priuate interpretation I meruayle howe you being such a Catholique as you professe to be durst set downe Peters wordes otherwise then you finde them in that translation For I am sure you are not ignoraunt of the penaltie that the Councell hath appointed for such doinges But this is not all your misdemeanour in this behalfe For you make a priuate Interpretation contrarie bothe to the decrée and also to this thyrde Reason of yours For to make a priuate interpretation is to make such a one as differeth from the auncient wryters and is not allowed of the Church But where can you shewe me any auncient writer that hath interpreted those wordes of Peter as you doo Saint Austine medleth not with them No more dooth S. Ierome S. Ambrose S. Gregorie nor Chrysostome nor any other of that tyme that I haue séene or can heare of Nicholaus Lyranus writing vpon these wordes of S. Peter sayth that the meaning of S. Peter was to teach that no propheticall Scripture hath begynning in or dooth spring out of humane sense or mannes meaning For thus he wryteth Propria interpretatione non fit id est non fit sensu humano ideo subditur Non enim voluntate humana allata est aliquando prophetia sed spiritu sancto inspirati c. It is not made sayth he by any mans owne interpretatiō that is to say it is not made by humane sense and therefore this saying is set immediatly after Prophecie hath not at any tyme been brought in by mans wyll but men inspired with the holy Ghost c. I thinke your Fathers of the Councell of Trent will allowe Lyranus for a Catholique wryter wherefore I thinke also that they wyll not dispense with you for dissenting from him in the interpreting of S. Peters wordes But nowe if ye wyll giue me leaue I wyll tell you what I thinke to be the meaning of S. Peter in these words First I thinke that you doo know that S. Peter wrote in Greeke And then you must knowe that the wordes which in the allowed translation are Priuata interpretatione are in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And they that haue any skyll in the Greeke tongue will tell you that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dooth signifie Impulsus as well as Interpretatio And may we not translate the wordes of S. Peter thus Omnis prophetica scriptura non fit proprij impulsus Euerie propheticall Scripture is not made of or by priuate or proper impulsion Or to translate it more English lyke No propheticall Scripture is made of or by priuate or proper impulsion It séemeth to me that bothe the wordes that goe before and also the wordes that followe doo enforce this to be the meaning of Saint Peter For he sayth thus We haue a firme and sure propheticall spéeche and you doo well in that you doo giue good héede thereto as vnto a Candle that appeareth in a darke place vntyl the day may waxe cleare and the day starre may aryse in your heartes But yet so that you doo first knowe that no propheticall Scripture is made by priuate or proper impulsion For prophesie hath not at any tyme bene brought vnto vs by the wyll of men but the holy men of God haue spoken as by the spirite of God they haue bene driuen or vehementlie mooued to speake Let your fréendes consider of this and tell you whether this may be allowed for Catholique or not I do◠not write this as one that doo not thinke that saying of yours No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation to be true or as one that dooth allowe the rashnesse of such as wyll rushe into the Scriptures without such reuerance as is séemely and take vppon them to make interpretations after their owne fantasies I know that all that we can doo and all the helpes that we can haue are lyttle enough and therefore I thinke it méete for all men to follow the rules that S. Austine prescribeth writing De Doctrina Christiana And thus much may suffise to be sayde to your thirde Reason which by good Reason and for iust cause as I thinke I haue called Foolishe The fowrth Reason YOur fowrth Reason is for that by appealing to the Scripture we seeme as you say to giue men lybertie to denie all vnwritten verities which we haue receyued of the Church eyther by expresse definition in generall Councell or but by tradition c. And first you delyght your selfe with a frumpe at Crowley and his fellowes that wil laugh as you say so soone as they heare of vnwritten verities And it séemeth that you perswade your selfe that you haue done it verie finely And therfore I haue named this Reason of yours Fātasticall But yet a little to temper our follie you will not say our pride you will aske vs how we prooue the Trinity of persons and the vnitie of substaunce in the Godhead by expresse Scriptures c. Nine verities we must prooue by Scriptures which are not as you say written in the Canonicall Scriptures Well to staie your wisdome I wyll by Gods mercifull assistance doo what may be done in this matter And I hope to prooue as many of them as be
Reasons if happily they had any force Secondly that which you bring out of y e fift of S. Iohns Gospell to prooue the scripture to be but witnes bearer to y e truth and not the Iudge though it haue some shew of reason yet being well wayed it well vanishe for you imagine because you finde the worde witnesse which is Verbum forence That by by you must haue a pitched Court a iudgement seate where shall be presented many persons in seuerall places one to be witnesse an other to be Iudge and perhaps some to be iustified and some to be condempned But if you had wayed other places of scripture you shoulde haue séene that the holy Ghoste admitteth no such straight collctions but framing his writing to our capacitie Useth some time one phrase and sometime an other And you might haue found where the worde is called a Iudge as in the twelfth Chapter of the same Euangelist If any man heare my wordes and beleeue them not I iudge him not c. He that refuseth me and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him The word that I haue spoken shall iudge him in the last day For I haue not spoken of my selfe c. Now iudge you how soundly you haue gathered it is witnesse therefore not Iudge or not rather bothe a witnesse a Iudge So might you reason of the diuerse Metaphors giuen to the word which is called Bread Wine Oile Milke Hony Water Raine Light Fyre Golde Siluer Pearle and Iron rod Scepter Sword the breath of the Lords mouth Now were it not a fonde Reason to gather because it is the breath of the Lordes mouth therfore it is no Sword because it is a sword or Iron rod therfore it is not Gold c. Or because it is Gold therfore it is no bread when as the holy Ghost hath set downe those sundrie Metaphors to expresse the power dignitie and commoditie of the worde But this is none of your six Reasons and therfore the weight of your cause lyeth not vpon it yet in pronouncing your Treatise before witnesse you gaue it a greate force ¶ Now to your Reasons YOur first Reason is grouÌ„ded vpon a false principle for you imagine our church to be without a Ministerie to teach and open the Scriptures which is not so yea rather your Préestes are mute and not onely that but ye close vp the booke of God will not let it be read to make the Scriptures wholy mute least they might bewray your corruptions But God be thanked God hath opened the mouthes of many by the Scriptures to witnes agaynst your errors and so iudge you by the same wordes if you amend not Your second Reason pretendeth that the Scripture is verie full of hard déepe mysteries surely I confesse that the Scripture hath his harde Misteries and hard places but hath it not also his easie familyar doctrines Is there not meate for all Estates Milke for babes and strong meate for good stomacks But I dare be bolde to auouch that it was Sathans policie to robbe the people of the whole vse of the Scriptures vnder pretence of ambiguitie as though the whole Scriptures were nothing else but Rydles As for the tryall of harde places the learned haue set downe two excellent rules which I meruaile you can reiect the one is conference of Scripture with Scripture the other is begging of wisedome of God who giueth it to the Babes lyttle ones and hydeth it from the wise in their owne conceyte who stumble at playne places not being dyrected by Gods spirite But howsoeuer they labour to trie the spirites or whatsoeuer knowledge they doo attaine they leaue the suueraigntie of the iudgement to the word Your thyrde Reason grounded on Saint Peters testimony 2. Peter 1. Erreth in not considering what the Apostle meaneth by priuate or not priuate you séeme to place it in the multytude of personnes that giue the interpretation but the Apostle placeth it in the authoritie of the Author of the word Therefore one Prophete speaking in the Lordes name being truely sent from the Lorde is more to be beléeued then the whole packe of Préestes resisting of mallice or ignorance and they being many are priuate and one Prophete being but one is not priuate Secondly you pretende that euerie man may interprete the Scriptures as he lysteth which is a false charge But we desyre them and allowe them to reade the Scriptures and to sée whether those thinges which we teache them be so or no according to the example of the faithfull Acts. 17. And as they are commaunded by Christe and the Apostle 1. Iohn 4. In your fowrth Reason whyle you went about to temper our pride as you say it séemeth you disteÌ„pered your own wits in putting downe so many things in y e name of vnwritten verities which notwithstaÌ„ding are written you aske of the matter when I suppose ye meane y e termes brought in by the Fathers to expresse the doctrine more plainlie As the word Trinity person and other to make plaine the doctrine against the Arrians Héere you were foully ouerséen And you would make as beléeue that the Church hath authoritie to poynt vs newâ— Articles of faith without warrant of scripture she was wont to challenge some liberty in Ceremonies indifferent things but you giue her power in Articles of faith Your fift Reason stumbleth on the false principle whereon you grounded your first Reason where you iudge no gouernment to be in our Church because we giue the highest rule to the worde gouerne thereby as by a most perfect lawe after which no newe Parliament néede to be called to adde or diminishe from it but all men of all estates ought to put to theyr hands to sée it executed and kept for the which cause if they at any tyme assemble the worde written is theyr direction Against your sixt Reason I auouch that he that appealeth to the iudgement of the written worde dooth yéelde a most waighty Reason to ratifie the sending of the holy Ghost to his Church and that it is the spirite of trueth For 〈◊〉 the Apostles were so mightely endewed with the spirite that they bothe taught and left in writing the whole CouÌ„cels of God enough to make the man of God perfect c Then the Church that challengeth the promise of that spirite wherewith they were endewed must subscribe to that trueth which they haue lefte written for whatsoeuer is not agreeablâ— thereto commeth from an other spirit opposing it selfe against the spirit of God which is neuer contrarie to it selfe Thus I haue bréeflie layde down 〈…〉 which I could haue done more at large but Maâ—ster Crowley hath giuen you matter enough and yet more then eyther he or I can wryte is set downe by Chemnicius and others whose Treatises you might doo well eyther to reade for your learning or to impugne if you be able ¶ Your well wyller H. T. FINIS Iohn â— The first Reason The secoÌ„d Reason The third Reason 2. Pet. 1. d. The fourth Reason The fift Reason The sixt Reason Titu 3. 2. Tim. 3. Luk. 24. 1. Cor. 2. 2. Cor. 3. Aug. de verbis Domini ser 13. 2. Pet. 3. 1. Tim. 3. Tom. 6. Mark 16. Phil. 3. Epist 15. De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. Ephe. 6. 1. Cor. 11. De Trini Libr. 15. Iam. 1. 1. Cor. 11. In. 1. Iohn Epist Cap. 2. 2. Pet. 1. Sessio 4. Lyranus in 2. Epi. Peter Psal 110. Math. 22. Tom. 3. Ephe. 3. Iohn 15. 20. 1. Pet. 3. Ieroni Tom. 4. Mark 10. 1. Cor. 7. Mark a. Apoc. 1. Collo 2. Acts. 15. Luk. 11. 1. Pet. 5. Tom. 1. Disti 16. An. 956. Vorat Plat. Plat. Volat. Volat. Plat. Psal 119. Esai 5. 1. Cor. 2. 1. Cor. 14. Luke 22. Psal 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174. Math. 4. Sap. 4. Tom. 4. Esai 59. Esai 44. Iohn 16. Luke 10. In Asceticis
An Aunswer to sixe Reasons that Thomas Pownde Gentleman and Prisoner in the Marshalsey at the commaundement of her Maiesties Commissioners for causes Ecclesiasticall required to be aunswered Because these Reasons doo moue him to think that controuersies and doubts in Religion may not be Iudged by the Scriptures but that the Scriptures must be Iudged by the Catholique Church 1. The first is for that the Scriptures are mute and dum 2. The second for that they be full of harde and deepe mysteries 3. The thirde for that S. Peter sayth No Scripture is to be taken after any priuate interpretation 4. The fourth for that to appeale to the Scriptures dooth seeme to denie all vnwritten verities 5. The fyft is for that it were a great absurditie not to haue a certaine Iudge of absolute Authoritie in the interpreting of Scriptures c. 6. The sixt is for that in refusing the Authoritie of the Churches absolute Iudgement herein we seeme to denie the holie ghost to be the spirite of trueth Written by Robert Crovvley ¶ Imprinted at London by John Charlewood 1581. ¶ To all the Pope his Catholiques in England or else where IN September last I with others was by sufficient Authoritie appointed to cōfer with such of your sort as at that tyme were in her Maiesties prisons of the Marshalsey the white Lion in Sowthwark restrained of lybertie for refusing to conforme themselues to that order of Religiō which is now publique in this Realme of England And according to our duety in that behalfe Maister Henrie Tryp and I did as we were required make our spedy repaire first to the one prison and then to the other And after some conference had with certain that were close prisoners we came to confer with one Maister Thomas Povvnde Gentleman in the lodging where he then laye And finding him altogeather vnwylling to enter into any conference by speaches because as he sayd he feared to fall into daunger of Lawe therby I aunswered that he ought to haue a better opinion of her Maiestie by whose appointment we were come to offer cōference then to thinke that she would send vs to entrap him or any other her subiects For she needeth not to seeke more aduantage against any of them then that which already by their disloyall behauiour they haue giuē her So that if she would proceede against them in rigour of lawe and not in mercie she might cut their heads from their shoulders and make no more to doo with them But being desirous by some meanes to bring to passe that they might become as obedient subiects to her as she both hath and dooth shew her selfe a louing Prince to them she would not abridge them of lybertie which for good and iust yea necessary causes shee is now enforced to doo but that shee would withal prouide that by cōferēce with such as be learned they might either be drawn from their errours or els be found to be obstinate and wilfully blinde But none of these speaches could mooue maister Pownd to like of any conference by speaches Yet notwithstanding he sayd he was ready to confer by wryting and offered so to doo Whereunto I aunswered that we had no commission to deale that way but yet if he would write I promised to aunswer him in writing Vpon this he pulled a Pāphlet out of his bosome the copie wherof I haue caused to be set before mine aunswer called in such as he thought meete to heare it read And after he had read it he deliuered it to me to be aunswered And this was done the. 7. day of September The ninth of the same month I began to shape him an aunswer and finished the same with as much conuenient speed as I could being letted with busines besides that busines enough to occupy som mā thorowly But by Gods helpe the time was not long before the aunswer was finished But in this meane whyle I know not by what occasion Maister Povvnd was remoued to another prisō further of so that I could not come to delyuer mine aunswer to him neyther did I thinke it meete to be sent to him immediatly from me because I vnderstoode that the right Reuerend Father the Lorde Bishop of London had commaunded him to be remooued thence I did therefore reade in the hearing of as many of your sorte as I then found in the Marshalsey bothe the Reasons contayned in Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet and also mine aunswers to the same Promising that with as much speede as I might I would send bothe to my sayd Lord the Bishop with my Letters beseeching him at his discretion eyther to send mine aunswer to Maister Pownd or els to cause him to be brought back againe to the Marshalsey whether I might repaire to proceede in conference with him by writing But my sayde Lorde being oppressed with other affaires more waightie and thereby enforced to commit this busines to some other that were not so carefull for the dispatch thereof as I would they had And I my selfe also not altogether vnoccupied otherwise did not as in dutie I ought call vpon my sayd Lord but supposing that mine aunswer had beene shortly conuayed to Maister Povvnd because I heard not of his returne to the Marshalsey I rested looking to haue receyued some replie from him tyll at the last euen in the Moneth of December last I heard that the Copies of his Pamphlet were made common to many of your sorte with great brags that the reasons therein contayned are vnaunswerable Yea and some of our side were required to aunswer them euen as Maister Povvnd had required me Whereupon repayring to my sayd Lorde the Bishop I receaued my sayde aunswer againe the 4. of this Ianuarie with his allowance to publish it in Printe together with the Copies of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet and the breefe aunswer that Maister Trippe wrote after I had finished mine as by the same may appeare And this was thought needefull to be don because the Copie of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet is already made so common our annswers being as yet made knowne but to fewe And that you may haue that firste in sight that you like best I haue caused the Printer to place the Copy of Maister Povvnd his Pamphlet immediatly after this short Epistle Reade these Reasons for your pleasure and our aunswers for your profite And if you mislike with our aunswers replie if you can You shall finde them of our side that will deale with you faithfully and freendely too Be not obstinately and wilfully blinde least you doo thereby prouoke yea and enforce our mercifull Prince contrary to her naturall inclination to deale with you in Iustice without mercie Though we haue great cause to thinke that you all the sorte of you doo hate both our Prince and vs for that Religion which bothe she and we do professe yet I dare assure you that bothe she and all the Honorable learned of her Realme yea and all of all estates
man but as holie men of God spake it inspired by the holy Ghost yet most contrary to this expresse rule euery priuate mā shall haue libertie to interprete it to his owne peruers will after a priuate interpretation otherwise then at first it was inspired to the holy men If euer man maie appeale from the Ecclesiasticall sence of the vniuersall Churche to the Text it self as he vnderstandeth it 4 The fourth Reason is becausé by appealyng onely to the Scripture you séeme to giue men libertie to denie all vnwritten verities which wee haue receiued of the Churche either by expresse definition in generall Counsaile or but by tradition And I beleeue at my firste na 〈…〉 of unwritten verities Maister Crowley and his 〈…〉 straight waie as though all suche were 〈…〉 to temper their follie I will not saie their pride a 〈…〉 that point I aske them all this question How thei proue the Trinitie of persones in the Vnitie of the substaunce in Godheade by the expresse Scriptures Or the two distinct natures in Christe and but one person Or God the Father to be Ingenitus Or the proceedyng of the holy Ghoste both from the Father and from the Sonne as from one Fountaine or the descendyng of Christ into Hell by plaine wordes of Scripture beyng therefore of many now a daies flatly deuyed Or the custome of Baptising of Infants seeyng the Scripture soundeth rather as though thei should bee taught first their faith before their were Baptized saiyng Goe and teathe all Nations Baptizyng them c. Or why we should kéepe the Sondaie now at all and not the Saterdaie rather whiche was the Iewes Sabothe daie that the Scripture speaketh of to be sanctified Although your Puritanes which goe to plough vpon all the Churches Holydaies seeme not yet to know the Sondaie for any of their makyng or why we should not abstaine now still like Iewes from strangled meates as the Apostels once decreed in the Acts and by no expresse Scripture againe abrogated Yea then why maie not any Hereticke denie al our thrée Créedes both the Apostles Créede the Nicen Creede as it is called the Creede of Athanasius seing neuer a one of these is written in Scripture expresly but all lefte vs by tradition onely vpon credite of the Churche Marke you not how these Bedlem Scripture men would shake all the foundations of our Christian faith by binding vs to beleue nothing but Scripture Do not these blinde guides thinke you leade us a trim daunce towarde infidelitie Thus muche of the fourth Reason 5 The fift is because that without a certaine Iudge for interpretatiō of Scripture absolutely this absurditie would followe y t God which is the Author of al perfectiō and disposeth euery thing in swete decent order had left his vniuersall Church in yearth in this confusion y t when soeuer any doubtfull question should arise vpō construction of his holy will there were no prouision at all ordained by God for deciding of such strifes and preseruation of concord among his people and then certainly the kingdome of Gods Churche were not so well prouided for in their gouernment as euery ciuill kindome is by pollicie of carnall men amōgst whom none almost are so barbarous but that thei haue Counsellers for gouernment of their state Iudges for expounding executing of their lawes aswell as lawes written or els it were ridiculus would not he be counted a very wise man thinke you in one of our Parliamentes whiche should steppe vp like a graue Burgesse and perswade all his fellowes that for asmuche as thei had a noble and an auncient Lawe written vnto them the Realme should haue no longer neede henceforthe of any Prince nor any Rulers nor Peeres nor Iudges nor Iustices nor ciuill Magistrates but euery man vppon his worde for the warrant would bee content to gouerne hym self orderly by the lawe written whiche as his wisedome thinkes is plaine enough And truely no wiser be thei but muche more to bee laughed to scorne whiche will haue the Scripture to bee the onely Iudge for euery man to appeale vnto and refuse all authoritie of the Churche in expoundyng thereof for who knoweth not that the Arrian Heretickes brought fortie places of Scripture for their horrible Heresie more then the Catholikes had against theim but all falsely vnderstoode whiche when it is so misunderstoode and misapplied then S. Augustine calleth it the Heretickes howe wherewith they shoote out their owne venemous arrowes And Vincent Lir. saieth it is then the Sheepes cloathyng whiche the Wolfe doeth shroude hym self in because that when a simple bodie feeleth the softnesse as it were of his fliece he should not mistrust the Tyrannie of his teethe That is to saie of his false construction of Scripture wherwith he would deuour his saule So did the Deuill hymself alleadge Scripture vnto Christ and as oft as any Heretikes aleadge Scripture to vs against the Catholike faith So oft saieth Vincentius we maie be out of doubt the Deuill doeth speake vnto vs by their mouthes and saieth vnto vs euen as he saied vnto Christ Si filius deies mitte te deorsum as much to saie If thou wile bee the sonne of God and professor of his holy Gospell cast thy self doune from the high authoritie and tradition of this Catholike Churche whom if wee aske againe why we should so doe then saieth Vincentius he commeth out with Scriptum est enim because it is written saieth he in the holie booke from thence thou must learne a newe lesson of me how to be a right Christian man To whom we must saie then Vade Satan non tentabis c. Auaunt Sathan c. and that with greate feruencie of faith for more perillous is the temption of such a flatteryng Serpent saieth S. Augustine then the roaryng of an angrie Lyon because the one wee flee from with feare but the other with entising maie come the nerer to sting vs. 6 The sixt reason most waightie of all is this because if you will refuse the authoritie of the Churches absolute iudgement vppon the Scriptures true cense you shall seeme plainly to denie the holy Ghoste to be the Spirite of truthe whiche vppon the Apostles and all the faithfull was sent doune with visible signes and with his Church is promised to remaine vnto the worldes ende by these wordes of our Sauiour I will aske my Father and he shall send you an other comforter to tarie with you for euer the spirite of truth And a little after thus The holy Ghoste the comforter whom my Father will sende in my name shall teache you all truthe Loe the Church is the surest Iudge and none shure but the Churche for all men in doubtes of Scripture because it hath a promise that it shall neuer erre in iudgement whiche is notably confirmed by the Prophet Esay saiyng This is my couenaunt with them saieth our Lorde my spirite whiche is in thee and my worde which I
easie matter to cause you to confesse that bothe a Pope and a generall Councell haue erred For the sixt generall Councell holden at Constantinople where .289 Bishops were gathered together it was amongst other thinges decréede that holy Images should be had in Churches and that the same should be with great reuerence worshipped And this Councell was holden when the first Agatho was Pope and this decrée was allowed by him And afterward by Adrian the first Pope of that name So that one generall Councell and two Popes haue erred in one decrée made against and directly contrary to Gods commaundement Thou shall not make to thy sâ—lâ—e any grauen Image c. Iohn ths 12. of that name behaued him selfe so well in his nine yéeres gouernment that one Historian calleth him Sceleratum virum A man giuen ouer to all wickednesse And an other calleth him Monstrum hominis A Monster amongst men And at the last he was slaine being taken in adulterie But peraduenture you wyll say these faults procéede of humane infirmitie But what wyll you then say to Syluester the seconde that gaue him selfe to the Diuell that he might obtaine y e Popedome which he obtayned in déede and dyd enioy it fowre yéeres Benedictus the ninthe lyued so wickedly governing the Church fiftéene yéeres that one Historian sayth he was Vir plane probrosus infamis that is A man altogether worthy of reproches or euyll reportes and infamous And an other sayth that after his death hée was séene in an horrible shape and that be sayde thus Iusto Dei iudicio damnatus sum quia fine Lege vixi I am dampned euen by the iuste iudgement of GOD because I lyued without lawe If all this wyll not suffise you consider I pray you the Councell of Basill holden in the yere .1431 And Pope Eugenius that in those dayes ruled the Church .16 yéeres This Engenius dyd once allowe the decrées of that CouÌ„cell And afterward he did disallow the same Whereby it is manifest that he erred either in the first or in the last And if the Popes authorite be aboue the Councell then that Councell dyd erre in deposing that Pope And if the Councell be aboue the Pope then did that Pope erre in excomunicating that Councell If you wyll take paines in reading the Histories you shall finde amongst the Popes the Saduces errour the Arrians errour the Pellagians errour mainteyned Yea you shall finde and we doo sée manifestly that at this day your whole Church dooth mainteyne the heresie of the Anthropomorphits For you haue in all your Churches the Image of God the Father resembling an olde man with gray haires as though tyme had now made him olde as it dooth all creatures But when your Church had thrée Popes at one time Iohn the .23 Gregorie the .12 and Benedict the .13 To which of these would you haue sent vs for resolution of our doubtes Yea and when your Church was two yéeres together without eyther Pope or generall CouÌ„cell whether would you haue wished vs to leaue the Iudgement in matters of Church coÌ„trouersies at that tyme I hope you wyll no longer wishe vs to leaue the Scripture that neuer did nor shall fayle vs and depend vpon such Iudges as these that haue so often failed and as yet were neuer full agréed As for your comparison that you make betwixt the Churches and worldly kingdomes it is not woorth a Walnut And your similitude of a wyse Burgesse in Parliament we weigh not We knowe and confesse that mens lawes are not neither can be made so plaine or perfect but that it is necessary that there be Iudges that may haue authoritie to discide those coÌ„trouersies y t may arise by occasioÌ„ of sinister construing of y e meaning of the words of the lawe or by occasion of the darknesse of the same But where finde you any such darknesse or imperfection in the Scriptures of God Dooth not Dauid say Lucerna pedibus meis verbum tuum lumeÌ„ semitis meis Thy worde sayth Dauid is a Lanterne to my féete and a lyght to my pathes Take héede that you be not one of them that Esay speaketh of That doe call lyght darknesse and darknesse lyght c. I doo graunt that there may some question arise amongst men about the vnderstaÌ„ding of some places of Scripture but this ryseth not of the darknesse that is in the scriptures but of that darknesse that is in mans vnderstanding Which till it be opened by the mercifull goodnesse of God cannot perceyue those thinges that doo belong to the spirite of God And we doo thinke it necessarie that there be good and learned men chosen put in authoritie in the Church such as may when néede is call together y e most graue wyse and godlie learned persons in the feare of God to delyberate for the good gouernment of the Church and to take order that all thinges in the Church may be done to the edification of the same according to the rule of S. Paule And if any proude or froward person or any simple or ignoraunt person doo mooue any question or his or theyr misdemeanour doo cause any questioÌ„ to be mooued or any doubt to aryse about the true meaning of any part of the Scripture We thinke it méete that in these cases those places of Scripture be reuerendly weighed by those wyse learned graue godlie men so called together in the feare of God And that the persons so in doubt be by them certified of the true meaning of those places And that if they will not yéeld to that interpretation that shall be made by those men and prooued by due circumstances conference of those places with other to be the verie meaning of the holie Ghost in those places then we holde those men for Heretiques and doo iudge them worthy to be excommunicated Thus if you wyll you may sée that we are some thing wiser then your Burgesse in Parliament and not so worthy to be laughed to scorne as he Although we doo not make these men Iudges of the scripture but we doo put them in trust to search the Scriptures that both they and we may submit our selues to that iudgement which they by theyr reuerende searching shall finde in the Scriptures As for the fortie places of Scripture that the Arrians brought for the defence of theyr horrible Heresie we are able enough by the help of God to set foorth plainly in theyr true meaning and to withstand the Arrians without the helpe of our Catholique Church Notwithstanding the fortie places of Scripture that they bring more then we can bring for the trueth And we say as S. Austine sayth that the Scriptures to mysse vnderstanded and mysse applied are the Heretiques bowe to shoote out theyr owne venemous arrowes And as Vincentius sayth They are the shéepes cloathing which the Woolfe dooth shrowde her selfe in in c. Yea and we confesse that the