those Ceremonies To bée briefe the first Catholique church did acknowledge none to bée her vniuersall head but Christ Iâ—sus onely and shée submitted her selfe to bee gouerned in matters of faith by his spirite which spirite did in déede gouerne hir in the vnderstanding of the scriptures which are the rule of Christian Religion And in ciuill gouernement shee submitted herselfe to Princes and other Potentats acknowledging that God hath giuen vnto them the power of the sword and hath made them his reuengers vpon earth coÌ„maunding them to vse that power in defending innocents and in punishing of such as doo transgresse his lawes But your Romish Catholique church must haue a Pope to bee hir vniuersall head vnder the name of Christes vicar generall and hee must haue absolute power vpon earth diriued from the Apostle Peter that neuer tooke vpon him selfe any such power but willed all Christians to submit themselues to all estates of men euen for the Lord Iesus sake Yea hee willed them to honour all men to loue brotherly fellowship to feare God and to honour the king 1. Peter 2. 1. Peter 2. But your Pope must haue power ouer all men euen ouer Princes to whom Peter submitted him selfe and willed al christians to doo the like Yea hée must haue power to depose all such Princes as will not bow to him and bee his Executioners in executing the paines of death vpon all such as it pleaseth him to take for Heretikes Such Princes dooth your Pope take vpon him to depose to depriue them of all princely dignitie to set vp in their place such as will submit them selues vnto him become his sworne vassalles And that he may the more easily bring these things to passe hée absolueth all the subiects of such Princes from their dutifull oth of obedience which they haue dutifully taken to those their leage and naturall Princes Yea as late and daily practises doo teach they spare not to promise the kingdome of God to such subiects as will most vndutifully most vnnaturally murder not onely their naturall countrimen but also their naturall Princes By these differences it apreareth how great the difference is betwixt the first Romish church which was in déede Catholique and yours which you call catholique but is in déede Cacolike But now you conclude that if the learned Protestant can prooue that the priuate conuenticles congregations of the Protestants were the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bible and written woord of God the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles Heretikes and schismatiks then you wil reuolt and recant as you haue saide before To this I say on the behalfe of the learned Protestant that neither the Catholique church nor any other congregations haue bin the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bible c. For those bookes which are called the Bible were brought foorth and written before our sauiour Christ sayd thus to the Iewes Scrutamini scripturas c. Ioh. 5. Ioh. 5. Serch the scriptures c. And as for the preseruing and defending of them from Iewes Gentiles c. I say that it hath not bin the worke of man but of God him selfe who is the only Author of the same Apocal. 6. In the sixt chapter of saint Iohns Reuelations it is written that when the third seale of that booke which was sealed with seuen seales was opened there was a voyce which came from the midst of the foure beasts which saide to him that sate vpon the blacke horse had a balaunce in his hand Wine and oyle see thou doo not hurt In the iudgment of all learned interpreters wine and oyle doo in that place signifie the scriptures which God would not suffer to bee hurt by any mans interpretation no not in the time of most déepe Ignorance The Iewes could neuer corrupt the text of the Canonicall scriptures although they lacked no good will to haue corrupted them Neither could your Popish catholiques at any time corrupt those scripcures for God hath reserued a Remnant of the Iewes with whom those scriptures are and alwaies haue bin had in such estimation and reuerence that they would neuer leaue them to any that would corrupt them and this hath God wrought by them vsing them as his instruments therein In like manner the Grecians haue bin his instruments in kéeping the Gréeke text both of the olde and newe testament from all manner of Corruption in all partes thereof that doo concerne any parte of the substance of our Religion so that though your Popish Catholiques would as no doubt they are willing enough yet they can not corrupt either the Hebrew or Gréeke text Thus if you will you may sée maister Offerer that God alone by such meanes as hée hath dooth and will vse hath bin the bringer foorth of the sacred Bible and other holy scriptures for the holy men of God did speake as the holy spirite of God did mooue them to speake 2. Pet. 1. 2. Peter 1. And it is hée that hath vsed his good meanes both in discerning of the holy writings from the prophane and also in preseruing and defending of them from all maner corruption Wherefore if you minde to bée as good as your woord you must reuolt and recant The third Offer The Offerer Third Shew mee good reason why yee Protestants doo belieue our Catholique Church enforming and telling you this to bee the woord of God written the true Bible and sacred scriptures and doo refuse to credit hir in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture shee being vndoubtedly led with the spirite of God in them both For if the Catholique Church had the spirit of God in discerning and iudging the true Scriptures of God from the rest not Scriptures why should not wee belieue that same Catholique church gouerned and led by the same spyrite in giuing the true sense meaning and vnderstanding of the Scriptures When yee shal be able to render a sufficient reason of the one and not of the other I shall then yeelde and recant and not before Crowley There is no reason why wée should shewe you good reason why wée doo that thing which none of vs either haue done doo or minde to doo In beliuing that the Bible and scriptures that wee haue is the true Bible and scripture wée doo as the people of Sichar did Iohn the fourth chapter They said to the woman that told them of Iesus Iam non propter tuam orationem credimus c. Iohn 4. Now doo wée belieue not bicause of the tale that thou hast told vs for wee our selues haue heard and doo know that this is very Christ the sauiour of the world Euen so wee confesse that when wee were amongst you wée heard you talke of a Bible scriptures wée were desirous to sée them but you kept them from vs by all the meanes that you coulde deuise but at the
A Deliberat answere made to a rash offer which a popish Antichristian Catholique made to a learned protestant as he saieth and caused to be publyshed in printe Anno. Do. 1575. Wherein the Protestant hath plainly substantially prooued that the papists that doo nowe call themselues Catholiques are in déed Antichristian schismatiks and that the religious protestants are in deed the right Catholiques VVritten by Robert Crowley in the yeere 1587. LONDON Printed by I. Charlwood and are to bée sold at the signe of the black Beare in Paules Church yâ—rde 1588. Falts escaped in the print In the 7. leafe and in the last line of the first page in the first of the second page reade thus innocencie of life for not continue in ignorance c. In the 9. leafe and 15. line of the first page reade thus and not let vs haue peace And in the last line saue one of the second page reade thus they are all become vnprofitable In the 10. leafe and 14. line of the second page read thus traxerit In the 16. leafe and 6. line of the first page read tend for bend In the 25. leafe and 12. line of the second page read conuenticles In the 26. leafe and 18. line of the 1. page read fasts for feasts In the 27. leafe and 9. line of the 1. page read cases for causes In the 31. leafe and 12. line of the eight Offer read at all times the continuance c. In the 36. leafe 7. line of the 2. page read such for those In the 39. leafe last line saue 4. of the 1. page read Qui pridie In the 50. leafe and last line saue 6. of the 2. page read at any time In the 53. leafe and 29. line of the 1. page read which are not c. In the 55. leafe and 33. line of the 1. page read perceiue by that c. In the 72. leafe 12. line of the 1. page reade Linus In the 75. leafe and 1. line of the 1 page read or doth seeme to bee In the 77. leafe and 1. line of the 1. page this woorde them is to much In 78. leafe 4. line of the 2. page read admonition In the 80. leafe 22. line of the 1. page read they for then In the 81. leafe in the title of the 1. signe read of false prophets In the 84 and 20. line of the first page read some of them contrarie to the expresse c. ¶ To all and singular popish Recusants SVpposing that all such papists as do refuse to ioyne with vs in the profession and exercise of religion and are therefore called Recusants be of one the same minde with that popish Offerer that first wrote these Offers and did publish them in print I haue thought it a thing very meete to request the same Offerer if hee bee yet liuing and all the rest that bee of his minde to afforde mee so much fauour as to reade ouer their owne Offers and that answere that I haue made therunto I trust you will not deny mee this request for your Offerer hath in the end of euery part of his Offer vsed these words or the like prooue this then I will relent and recant not before I know that ther be many amongst you that are worshipfull wise and learned such I hope will not blemish their worship wisedome and learning by fore-iudging ought that is or shal be written in answere to any Offer that any of their minde hath or shall make and require answere thereunto I doo not require any of you to giue credit to that which I haue written before you haue tried the same and found it worthy of credit And therefore I haue set ouer the heads of the pages of this my booke this admonition First trie and then trust If you shall finde that I haue sufficiently prooued all those thinges that your Offerer requireth the protestant to prooue then I hope you wil redily performe those Offers that he hath made And if you shall finde any insufficiency in mine answeres I hope that some of the learned on your side will vse some meanes whereby I may haue knowledge of that insufficiency And in the word faith of a Christian I doo promise you that what soeuer any of you shal write touching this matter I will reade it deliberatly and without all parciall affection with earnest prayer to the almighty for the direction of his holy spirite whereby I may be stayed from straying out of the way of truth I know that there is but one way to euerlasting life I doo know that Christ only is that way if any of your sort therefore can make it plaine vnto me that your popish Catholique church dooth walke in that way then will I leaue that way wherein wee protestants doo walk and runne with you for I tell you truly that none of you can haue a greater or more earnest desire to enter with the Bridgrome Christ then I haue and as I hope shall haue to the end My pen would gladly proceede in paynting my paper with moe sentences to the like effect but I haue thought good to stay it for that I doo persuade my selfe that you doo think the time longe before you can take in hand to performe that request that I haue herein made Frare you well From my house at S. Gyles without Creplegate of London The Lord Iesus direct you in all that you shall doo Amen Ianuarie 16. An. 1587. Your well willer Robert Crovvley The deliberate aunswer that Robert Crowley a Protestant Christian hath made to that rash offer that a popish Antichristan Catholique made to a learned Protestant Imprinted in Dovvaie as he saith Anno Domini 1575. Crowley IN the yeere of our Lord. 1586. there came to my handes by what meane I doo not well knowe but by the prouidence of God I am sure a certaine booke that had béen imprinted and published in Doway in Fraunce in the yéere 1575. in the Englishe Tongue That booke is intituled A notable discourse plainely and truely discussing who are the right ministers of the Catholique Church written against Caluin and his disciples by one Maister Iohn de Albine called De Seres Archdeacon of Tolossa in Fraunce Wherunto are annexed certaine Offers made by a popish Catholique to a lerned ProtestaÌ„t c. This booke lay by me as a thing whereof I made small accompt tyll the moneth of May in the yéere .1587 When hauing by occasion more spare time then in long time before I had or could haue I tooke this booke in hand and did deliberately reade ouer both the booke and the offers I found both the booke and the offers to stuffed with coulour of pietie trueth and sinceritie that I coulde not but thinke that the hauing of this booke in secrete hath béene one great cause of the Apostacie of so many young men as haue in late yéeres fallen away from the pure profession of the
canonicall mo bookes then these In the olde testament saith hée the fiue bookes of Moses that is Genesis Exodus Leuiticus Numbers Deuteronomium After these Iesus Naue of the Iudges togither with Ruth After these foure bookes of the raignes of kings which the Hebrews doo account but two Paralipomenon which is called the booke of dayes and two of Esdras which they doo receaue each by it selfe and the booke of Hester And of the Prophets Esaie Ieremie Ezechiell Daniell bisides these one booke of the xii Prophets Iob also and the Psalmes of Dauid are each of them one booke Salomon also hath giuen vnto the churches thrée bookes the Prouerbs Ecclesiastes and Cantica canticorum In these bookes haue the fathers shut vp the number of the bookes of the old testamēt And of the New testament there are foure Gospelles of Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn The Acts of the Apostles which Luke dooth describe Fouretéene Epistles of Paule the Apostle of Peter the Apostle two of Iames the brother of the Lord an Apostle one Epistle of Iudas one of Iohn thrée and the Apocalyps of Iohn These bée the volumes which the fathers haue shut vp within the canon whereof the father would that the assertions of our faith should consist Notwithstanding it is néedefull to bée knowne that there be other bookes also which are not canonicall but our auncestors haue called them Ecclesiastical That is to say wisdome which is said to bée Salomons And another Wisdome which is said to bée of the sonne of Sirach which is by the Latinists named by the same generall name Ecclesiasticus By which name not the author of the booke but the qualitie of the scripture is named And of the same Order is the booke of Tobias Iudith and the bookes of Machabies Thus far Ruffinus in his creede or confession of beliefe set foorth by saint Hierome And not many liues after this hée writeth thus These volumes haue the fathers deliuered vnto vs which as I haue said it hath séemed to mée méete to note out for the instruction of such as doo take vpon them the first rudimēts of the church of faith that they may know out of what fountaines the cups of the woord of God must bée drawne Now M. Offerer I pray you confer these words of Ruffinus with that decrée that was made by your fathers of the Tridentine councel in their 4. Session wherein they allow for canonicall all those bookes that haue bin are cōtained in that booke which is cōmonly called the Bible With them the bookes of Tobias Hester Iudith Wisdome Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Machabies are of as great authoritie as the rest and they doo denounce accursed all such as doo not or shall not receiue for canonicall all those books and euery part of them making no diffrence betwixt these and the other which Ruffinus hath said the fathers haue deliuered vnto vs as fountaines out of which the cups of the word of God must be drawn Let your fathers therfore denounce accursed this Ruffinus and those fathers that he speaketh of for they be of one minde with vs. Let them accursse S. Hierome that hath set foorth this Créede of Ruffinus as a sound confession of the Christian faith Let them excōmunicate S. Gregorie Grego Morali in 29. lib. Cap. 19. Hiero. in praefacio prou that in the 19. of his morall exposition of the 29. Chapter of Iob dooth confesse that the first booke of the Machabies is not canonicall Yea let them accursse S. Hierome as black as a pot for that in his preface to the prouerbes of Salomon he saith thus The church dooth read the bookes of Iudith Tobie the Machabies for th'edification of the people but not to confirme the authority of the doctrines of the Church This Hierome such other were the fathers the Ruffinus saith haue deliuered to vs the other bookes of the Bible not these to bee fountaines for vs to draw the cups of Gods word out of them And with these would wée rather bée accursed then blessed with your popish Catholique fathers in your Tridentine counsell You frame an argument after this maner If the Catholique church had the true spirite of God in discerning iudging the true scriptures of God from the rest not scriptures why should not we belieue the same Catholike church gouerned led by the same spirit in giuing the true sence meaning vnderstanding of the scriptures To this I answere That the romish Catholique church which now is hath continued for the space almost of a thousand yéeres is not neither hath bin led by the true spirit of God either in discerning or iudging the true scriptures of God from the rest c. Nor yet in giuing the true sence c but it hath bin and is still led by the spirite of Antichrist And that neuer more apparantly then at the Tridentyne counsell as by the canons of the same counsell dooth most manifestly appéere to as many as with indifferent iudgement can and will reade them Thus haue I shewed you sufficient reasons whereby you might bée mooued to yeelde and ioyne with vs in religion and no longer to depend vpon the iudgement of that Antichristian church which you call Catholique for that you may sée if you bee not altogither blinded that it is not the true spirite of God that hath and dooth leade your Catholique church but in déede the false spirite of Antichrist The fourth Offer Offerer Fourth Let the Protestants make sufficient proofe by auncient writers of the Ecclesiastiall histories what church it is that al these fifteene hundreth yeeres past hath continued through out firme and stedfast while all other conuenticles and cōgregations as well of Arians as of the Nestorian Maniches Nouatians Vigilians Iouinians and the rest of Heretikes of all sortes haue decayed bin conuinced and ouerthrowne and that by any other Church then by the common knowne Catholique church of Christ and I shall then yeelde and recant and not before Crowley It is very true that the knowne Catholike church hath bin and still is as for these fiftéene hundreth yéeres last past it hath bin the meane that God hath vsed in the conuinsing ouerthrowing of Arians Nestorians and the rest of the Heretikes that you speake of It is most true also that the same Catholike church hath all this time continued firme and stedfast but how can you prooue that your popish Catholike church is that knowne Catholike church of Christ that you speake of Héerein lieth the difficulty It is not enough for you to say that your romish church is the Catholike church but you must prooue it Your antiquity your vniuersality your vnity with your continuall succession of Bishops will not serue your turne Your antiquity is not so auncient as ours by 4600. yéeres almost For ours began in Adam hath continued euer since yours began to florish in the daies of Phocas the
of one church For the darknesse is no more contrary to the light neither falshoode to the truth nor the deuill to God then the doctrine of Swenkfield and of the Anabaptists is to the doctrine of Luther Caluin and Zuinglius But this is the drift of this Offerer To beare the world in hand that wée Protestants doo holde maintaine euery point of doctrine that is contrarie to or diffreth from that Antichristian doctrine which hée his fellowes doo call Catholike and that wée haue none other authors of our religion but these whom hee hath héere named such like Vndoubtedly hée is heerein very much disceiued For although wée doo for good cause like very well of the iudgment of some of these men that bee heere named yet wée haue not sworne to belieue all that they haue written neither yet anie one woorde that they haue written further then they haue by the scriptures made proofe of that which they haue affirmed in writing Wée are not Lutherans Zuinglians nor Caluinists but wée are Christians as in our opinion Luther Zuinglius and Caluin were They were of one minde with S. Austen that desired no credit further then hée prooued his assertions by scripture I pray you therefore good M. Offerer offer vs not such discurtisie as to cause the world to conceiue such an opinion of vs that wée holde and maintaine wée care not and knowe not what Wée thanke the Lord our God wée are not ignoraunt what wée doo and what Christians ought to belieue and wée are ready and able to render an account of the hope that is in vs. And our God hath made vs able to iudge of the spirites and to discerne the spirite of truth from the spirite of errour And by that gifte of our God wée are made able to sée that your spirite is the spirite of Antichrist and your religion Antichristian And that the religion that wée doo professe is Catholique and the same that was professed and practized euen in Rome for the space of 300. yeeres and more next after the ascention of our Sauiour Christ And where as you require the learned Protestant to prooue that these sectes being so diuers c. or any of them do giue saluation to theyr fellowes and that you ought to béeléeue them all or any one of them we leaue to your selfe to be discussed at your leasure For we knowe that no companie or societie of men hath any power to giue any saluation neither to others or to themselues that no man is bound to beléeue another farther then hée dooth knowe that the same hath and dooth speake and write the trueth I sée no cause therefore why you should not yéeld and recant although the learned Protestant neither can prooue nor will take vpon him to prooue the thing that you haue so impudently required him to prooue The sixteenth Offer Offerer Sixteenth When the Protestant shal be able to prooue that those persons which in theyr departure made frō the Catholique Church of Christ haue more desire to beare the name of Sectaries as of Lutherans Zuinglians Illerians Caluinistes Swenkfieldeans Anabaptistes thē the name of Christians or Catholiques are the true members of Christ his Church and not Heretickes and Schismatickes nor yet followers therein of theyr fathers the Arians whych tooke theyr names of Arrius the Maniches of Manes the Nestorians of Nestorius the Nouatians the Vigilians the Iouinians Pelagians Eutichians and others then I shal yeeld and recant and not before Crowley Let the Protestant make the lyke offer and so the one offer shall be a sufficient answer to the other When the Antichristian Catholique shal be able to prooue that suche persons as doo desire rather to be called Fraunciscans of Fraunces Dominicans of Dominicke Benedictines of Benedict Augustiniās of Augustine Barnardines of Barnard Brigettines of Briget and so foorth of all the seuerall orders of Friers Monkes Chanons and Nunnes rather then by the common name of Christians bee true members of Christes Catholique Church and not Sectaries Heretickes and Schismatickes nor yet followers of theyr Fathers the Arrians which tooke theyr name of Arius c. Then will the Protestant yéelde and recant and so become an Antichristian Catholique and not before A man might meruaile to sée the blindnes of this Offerrer that could not sée howe easily this balde offer of his might be turned backe vpon himselfe Yea there is much greater reason to mooue any man to thinke that the Monkes Friers and Chanons Nunnes and others of the Popish religious persons doo desire to be named after the first founders of their religions then that they which do fauour and followe the doctrine of Luther Caluine or any other doo desire to be called by the names of them whose doctrine they followe or fauour For were it not that such as doo mislike with the doctrine of Luther and the rest doo in dirision call the fauourers of that doctrine by the names of those chéefe teachers of the doctrine wée should not amongst thousands finde one that would giue any of those names to himselfe But the Popes religious persons doo for the most parte blot out of memorie the names that were giuen vnto them when they were baptised as Frier Iohn Frauncis Minime of Nigion in Fraunce was called Debnam by hys Progenie and kindred whereof he came and at his Baptisme the name Samuell was giuen vnto him I thinke it will be hard for this Offerer to prooue that this is not a flat renouncing of Christ and Christendome For in this new name not onely the progenie of his naturall parentes is renounced but that religion also that was professed when he was baptised and in that new profession that he hath made thereis no promise made of obedience to Christ or vowe to obserue Christian religion but to obay the Father Prior and all the superiours in that order and to obserue that rule of S. Frauncis order If this be not a flatte forsaking of Christ then vndoubtedly no man can forsake him And what may bée thought of you Antichristian Catholiques Doo not you forsake Christ where you chuse a man to bée his Vicar generall captiueing and submitting your seuerall meaninges to the iudgement of your Prelates and spiritual gouerners and of one chéefe heade and pastor amongest those Prelates and that in all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Well I would wish you to remember your selfe better and to consider from how good loouing and faithfull a shéepheard you are gone astray and by howe many waies hee hath and dooth still séeke to bringe you home againe to hys shéepfolde the right and true Catholique Church consider that you haue willingly wittingly and wilfully made your selfe captiue to the greatest enimy that your shéephearde Christ hath or can haue Make hast to returne your shéepeheard will with ioy receiue you Your sinne is great in forsaking such a shéepheard and yet not so great but it may be pardoned Repent and beléeue the
points contrary to his lawe theyr circumcission therfore dyd profit them nothing but was turned into vncircumcission Rom 2. Rom 2 Euen so batpisme is vnto vs the seale of the new couenaunt which God hath made with vs and with our fore fathers which couenaunt he neither dooth nor can breake But when we breake the condition which is to serue and honour him in spirit and in trueth Ioh. 4. Iohn 4 then is our baptisme made vnprofitable to vs. For as S. Peter hath written 1. Peter 3. 1 Pet 3 The baptisme that saueth vs is not that which putteth away the filth of the flesh but that whereby we are made bolde with a good conscience to stand before God and to call vpon him This is the baptisme of the spirite whereby we are borne from aboue and made the sons and daughters of God and his spirit giuen vnto vs which spirite dooth certifie our spirites that we are Gods children and the same spirite dooth enbolden vs to repaire vnto God as children to a Father and to say vnto him father father Yea and this spirite dooth leade vs as the children of God and maketh vs able in some measure to serue him in obseruing the commaundementes of God Rom 8. Roma 8 How can you say that you doo obserue this condition of honouring and seruing God in spirit and in trueth when in your outward exercise of religion there is scarsely any one thing to bée séene that sauoreth any thing at all of the spirite but altogeather of the flesh yea very fewe thinges that God hath commaunded are to bee séene in your outward professing of Christ but very many things that God hath flatly forbidden Your temples or Churches stuffed full of images and howe dooth the temple of God agree with images 2 Cor 6. 2 Cor 6 your Churches builded and consecrated to the honor of creatures as of Angels and Saints Your solemne festiuall dayes yerely obserued in the honor of creatures Your inuocations and prayers Your burning of incence before dead images and liuing men and before that Sacrament which our Christ ordayned to be receiued in the remembraunce of his death and passion and not to bée worshipped your offering vp of this sacrament as a sacrifice for the sinnes both of the quicke and of the dead your hanging of it ouer your Alters and your carying of it about in your pompous processions your harmonious musicke with the voices of men and children together and the noise of Organes and other loude instruments of Musicke your ringing of Belles your burning of lightes in the open day-light with I wot not how many other toyishe diuises that are vsed by you in your exercise of religiō what one sparke of spirituall seruing and honouring of God can there be in them But your baptisme although you haue diuised manie madde toyes which you doo vse in the ministration therof remaineth the same in substance that our Sauiour Christ dyd commaund to be ministred to such as should beléeue by the preaching of the Gospell Math 28. Math 28. Goe your way and teach all nations baptising them in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holy Ghost You baptise not in the name of Antichrist but in the name of the holy trinity the Father the Son and the holy Ghost The baptisme therefore that we haue receiued amongst you is as effectuall to vs as the Baptisme that we minister to our infantes is to them Now you doo I hope sée that your two horned argument dooth not stand vpon so sure a ground as you séemed to be perswaded that it dyd Wée may say yea to your question and yet not affirme that there is an other way to saluation then by Christ And wée may say no to your question and not be enforced thereby to deny that any of the people that professed Christ for the space of 1000. yeeres were saued Nowe therefore I require you to remember your promise and to recant which you haue hetherto refused to doo The eighteenth Offer Offeter Eighteenth Let the learned Protestant make proofe vnto me how theyr hidde vnknowen and secret Church not hauing in it the Doctrine of Christs Gospell openlie taught no ministration of Sacramentes no spirite of Prophesieng no discipline or rod of correction no ordering of Bishops Preestes and Ecclesiasticall ministers nor yet any other spirituall function executed in the same for the space of a thousand yeres together Let hym prooue their hidde and vnknowen Church with the lacke of all these thinges to be the true spouse and Catholique Church of Christ and I will recant and not before Crowley I haue already prooued sufficiently that although our Catholique Church was by Antichristian tirannie verie sore oppressed and by Popish supersticion and by blasphemous idolatrie meruailously ouercountenaunced yet in all that time of a thousand yéeres that this Offerer speaketh of it was neuer so hidde so vnknowen or so secret but that it was still the Cittie on the hill the Candle on the candlesticke the salt and the light of the world euen as it was in the time of Christs being on earth in our nature and vnder the first ten horrible persecutions The doctrine of the Gospel of Christ was taught and the sacramentes of Christ were ministred in it as openly as the Tiranny of Antichriste would suffer It had the spirite of prophecie in as large mesure as our head Christ Iesus knew to be méete for vs. The rodde of correction or discipline was as much exercised as it might bée by them that had the power of the sworde taken from them and continually vsed against them They lacked neyther Bishops Préestes nor other ecclesiasticall ministers such as the heauenly father knewe to bée necessarie for them These although they were not ordered after the Antichristian manner by receiuing the marke of the beast had theyr lawfull calling from God by man and dyd execute theyr function faythfully and shewed therin no slacknesse but such as was enforced by open and bloodie Tirannie These thinges haue béene sufficiently prooued before and that our Church was not so hydde vnknowen and secret in the tyme that is past of the .1000 yéeres that this Offerer speaketh of neyther is it at this day in any part of the world so hidde c. As this Offerer would beare vs in hand that it was and is in places where it is persecuted and shal be till the whole time of the deuils libertie shal be complet and ended I doo not therefore sée wherefore you should not recant as you haue promised The ninteenth Offer Offerer Nineteenth Againe on the other side let the learned Protestant prooue that it is not the true Church of Christ that hath in the face of the world for the space of fifteene hundred yeeres past exercised preaching the conuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell that hath alwaies had the administration of Sacramentes the hearing of matters in controuersie the
strong you haue dispersed the flocke of Christ which was at the first but one societie and fellowship In not sparing nor preseruing the vnitie of that flock you haue made your selues knowen to bée the same rauening wolues that the Apostle S. Paule spake of Acts 20. Act 20. Ego scio saith S. Paule I doo knowe that after my departing from you raueninge wolues shall enter in amongest you not sparing the flocke And from amongst your selues there shall rise vp men that shall vtter frowarde speaches that they may drawe schollers after them Not from the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ therefore whereof wée Protestants are members but from the now knowen antichristian Church whereof this offerer and his fellowes are members dyd that Schisme procéede that this Offerer speaketh of For by the deceitfull false doctrine that they haue taught and by theyr bloodie tyranny they haue drawen many from the vnity in Christ which is the verity and ioyned them to the Schisme of Antichristian impietie This matter béeing made so plaine as to mee it dooth séeme to be I doo thinke that euery indifferent reader here of will in hys heart say thus to this Offerer for shame stay no longer but yéelde and recant out of hand lest the heauie wrath of God fall vpon thée for that thou hast not yéelded and recanted before The fift signe and token false Prophets Offerer Fift signe and token of false Prophets Schismatickes and heretiques is disobedience Et non obedire sed resistere eis qui praesunt in Ecclesia Dei And not to obey but resiste those which doo beare rule and gouerne in the Church of God of the which sorte of men the Apostle S. Paule giueth vs warning Quemadmodum Iamnes Mambres restiterunt Moysi ita hi resistunt veritati homines corrupti mente reprobi circa fidem 2. Timot 5. Exodus 7 Like as Iamnes and Mambres dyd resiste Moises euen so doo these resist the trueth beeing men of corrupt minde and reprobates in fayth Now when the learned Protestant shal be able to prooue that this rebellion and disobedience to all Bishops Prelattes and ecclesiasticall gouerners is to be found in the chatholick Church and not in the priuate Church and congregations of the Protestantes then I shall yeeld submit and recant and not before Crowley As obedience is more acceptable in Gods sight then sacrifice 1. Regum 15. 1 Reg. 15 euen so there can nothing displease him more then disobedience dooth But we may not hereof conclude that God is so displeased with euery disobedience as he was with Saules disobedience when he dyd contrary to that which he had commanded him to doo neither euery obedience is so acceptable to God as that obedience shoulde haue béene if Saule had doone in all pointes euen as God had commaunded to him to doo For that obedience onely is acceptable to the Lord that is doone in the Lord and for the Lords cause and obedience in dooing that which the Lord hath forbidden to be doon and in leauing that vndoone which the Lord hath commanded to be doon is not to be accounted for obedience but is in déede disobedience Let vs sée therefore what manner of disobedience it is that this offerer hath charged vs with Euen such as was in Iamnes Mambres when they did resist Moses By coniecture these two that S. Paule nameth in the third Chap. of his second Epistle to Timoth were the Sorcerers that stroue against Moses in Egipt and dyd by theyr sorcerie worke such wonders in outwarde appearaunce as Moses dyd by the mighty power of God in very déede as in the 7. Exod 7 8 and 8. Chapters of Exod it appeareth But Moses dooth not name those sorcerers neyther are they named in any History of the Scriptures wherefore it may bee thought that S. Paule had some other writings then are now extant whereby he gat the knowledge of the names of those sorcerers that dyd so withstand Moses But howe so euer Moses came by theyr names this offerer hath not taken theyr names aright for both the translation that the Tridentine councell hath allowed of and the Greeke text haue Iannes and not Iamnes the Gréeke text hath Iambres and not Mambres But the matter is not great let the Offerer and his fellowes descide this matter at theyr leasure The Apostle S. Paule hauing described such men as by the Spirite of prophecie he did foresée should come in the latter dayes he sayth that they should bée such as resist the trueth euen as Iannes and Iambres did resist Moses Howe those sorcerers did withstand Moses dooth appeare in the two Chapters of Exodus that I haue noted before They dyd what they could to discredit all that was doone by Moses and to stay Pharao and the Egiptians from giuing credite to that messadge that Moses dyd from the Lord God of Israell So long as the Lord would suffer them they made shewes of as great and wonderfull workes as those were that were wrought by Moses Euen so saith S. Paule those men doo withstande the trueth béeing men corrupted in minde and lewde concerning the fayth But they shall preuaile no longer For the madnes of these men shal be made manifest to all men euen as theirs was Now let the indifferent reader iudge who they bée in these dayes that may most rightly be sayd to be lyke vnto Iannes and Iambres the Popish Catholiques or we Protestant Catholiques Wee come in the name of the Lorde God onely do labour to bring the people of God out of the Egiptian darcknes of Rome to serue God in spirite and in trueth for so God delighteth to be serued Iohn 4. Iohn 4. But the antichristian Popish Catholiques doo labour as Iannes and Iambres dyd to kéepe them in that darcknes styll and to that ende they doo what they can to cause vs to be taken for false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatickes and the Gospell of Christ which wée doo preach to be false doctrine Heresie and Schisme Yea let the indifferent reader iudge whether of both the sorts protestants or roomish catholiques may be déemed to be that men that S. Paule did Prophesie of in that third chapter of his second Epistle to Timoth. 2. Timot 3. They shal be saith S. Paule loouers of themselues couetous high minded proude blasphemers disobedient to parentes vnthankfull wicked voyde of affection truse-breakers false accusers incontynent cruell vncurteous traiterous frowarde malicious and such as doo looue pleasures more then God hauing a shewe of Godlines but denying the power thereof The Chronicles or Histories of times doo witnes that no men can bée more lyke vnto these men that saint Paule hath here described then the Popish prelates haue béene for the space of these last 1000. yéeres almost and so they doo continue stil as daily experience dooth shew Whereunto I doo refer the indifferent reader for the trial of the trueth herein Nowe therefore as