congregations euerie Saboth one houre before the preacher come in first prayer then psalms then reading of holiâ— scriptureâ— and by these the hearts of â—he people are prepared the more reuerently to heare the word you see all is done with great quietnâ—sse deuotion and reuerence R. I see that indâ—ed C. We haue no serâ—ice hâ—re you see in a strange languâ—ge the Preacher speakes and the people prayes in their mother tongue but the new forme of the Romish Church is to haue all their diuine seruice in the latine tongue R. Truly I haue ofttimes maruelled at it what should moue them to make their praiâ—â—â— in a language the people vnderstands not C. Vitalianus Bishop of Rome was the first father of this nouelty R. Put what are they doing now C. You heare the third Bell ringing and in this space the reading ceaseth and at the â—nd of the Bel ringing the Preacher will come But till the Preachâ—r come in reade this place of the Apostle Saint Paul and you shall see what was the old form vsed in the Primitiue Church and that ours is very agreeabie vnto it Read the 1 Corinth 14. ver 6. And now Brethren if I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profite you except I speake to you either by Reuelation or by knowledge or by prophesying or by doctrine 7 Moreouer things without life which giue a sound whether it be a pipe or a harpe except they make a distinction in the sounds how shall it be knowne what is piped or harped 8 And also if the Trumpet giue an vncertaine sound who shall prepare himselfe to battell 9 So likewise yee by the tongue except you vtter wordes that haue signification how shall it be knowne what is spoken for you shall speake in the aire 10 There are so many kindes of voices as it commeth to passe in the world and none of them is dumbe 11 Except I know then the power of the voice I shall bee vnto him that speaketh a Bâ—rbarian and hee that speaketh shall bee a Barbarian vnto me 12 Euen so forasmuch as yee couet spirituall gifts seeke that yee may excell vnto the edifying of thâ— Church 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray that hee may interpret 14 For if I pray in a strange tongue my spirit prayeth but my vnderstanding is without fruit 15 What is it then I will prâ—y with the spirit but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the vnderstanding also 16 Else when thou blessest with the spirit how shall hee who occupieth the roome of the vnlearned say Amen at the giuing of thankes seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest 17 For thou verily giuest thaÌ„ks well but the other is not edified 18 I thank my God I speak languages more then yee all 19 Yet had I rather in the Church to speake fiue words with mine vnderstanding that I might also instruct others then ten thousand worâ—es in a straenge tongue You see here that by the Apostles precept the seruice of God in the publike assemblies of thâ— Church should be done in such a language as the people may vnderstand R. I see it indeed C. Now if it like you for your further confirmatioÌ„ I wil shew you how the same order which this day is obserued in our Church concerning the exercises of Gods worship was also obserued in the Primitiue Church neerest the Apostles dayes R. It likes me very well to heare it C. Then will I tell you it out of Iustin Maertyr R. What a Father was he C. A very ancient and learned man hee liued in the yeare one hundred and fiftie and of a Philosopher was conuerted to be a Christian he wrote to the Empâ—rour and Senate of Rome two Apologies in defence of Christian Religion in the secoÌ„d of them so he writes Die qui solis dicitur omnes qui in oppidis vel agris morantur vnum in locum conueniunt commentariâ—que Apostolorum vel Prophetarum scripta leguntur quandiu hora patitur deinde vbi is qui legit destitit is qui prae est admonet hortatur vt eâ— quae lecta sunt bona imitemur tum surgimus omnes ac compreâ—â—mur conclusisquâ— nostris precibus panis vinum aquae offeruntur tum is qui primum locum tenet â—odem modo preces gratiarumque actionem pro virili mittit populusque bene dicit dicens Amen ijs quae cum grâ—tiarum actione consecrata sunt vnusquisque participat eadem ad eos quiabsunt diaconis dantur perferenda Quibus copiae suppetunt ij si volunt quisque siâ—o arbitratu quod vult largitur quodque colligitur apud eum qui praest reponitur isque pupillis viduis ijs quos morbus aliaue caeusa inopes fecit ijs qui in vinculis sunt hospitibâ—s â—ubuenit Vpon that day which is called Sunday all Christians resident in townes and villages assemble in one place where the written Commentâ—ries of the Prophets and Apostles are read for the space of an howre the which being done the Preacher or President ouer the flocke admonisheth exhorts vs to follow the wholesome word read then get wee all vp and pray together our prayers being finished bread wine and water are presented and then the Preacher conceiues feruent praier and thanksgiuing and the people blesse God saying Amen then euery one taketh a part of these things which were consecrate by thaÌ„ksgiuing the same things also are giuen to the Deacons to beâ— conuaied to these who are absent And such as haue the things of this world contributes to the poorâ— as they please and that which is collected is giuen him in trust who is President hee therwith supports the widdow fatherlesse these whom sicknes or any other cause hath made indigent as also strangers and these who are imprisoned I might shew you the like out of of Tertullian in his Apologie aduersus Gentes Cap. 39. But now the time serues not R. It needes not for that place you haue brought from the Apostle and this other from Iustin Martâ—r may let any man see the order exercise which Christians of the church Primitiue obsâ—rued in their holy assemblies for I see no other thing among them as you said but publikâ— reading of the word in a plaine language done by the Reader till the Preacher come in theÌ„ publike singing of Psalms by all the people thâ—n preaching prayer and collection for the poore C. You take it vp very well and God be praised you see that same order among vs And you who haue seene their seruice dumb guise of their Masse their mumbling of prayers in the Latine tongue and the vnreuerent prophaning of the sabbath that is among their people for laâ—ke of discipline may soone discerne that how soeuer they brag of an Apostolike Church yet they haue not kept the ancient Apostolike order R. It is
〈…〉 SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE BETWEENE A CATHOLICKE CHRISTIAN AND A CATHOLICKE ROMANE Concerning some Controuersies of RELIGION By William Cowper B. of Galloway AVG. DE CIVIT DEI LIB 20. CAP. 19. Qui non credunt veritati Iudicati seducentur seducti iudicabuntur LONDON Printed by W. S. for Iohn Budge and are to be sold at his Shop at the South doore of Paules and Britaines Bursse 1613. TO THE MOST SACRED CHRISTIAN TRVELY CATHOLICKE And mightie Prince IAMES King of Great Britaine France and Ireland defender of the Faith c. SIR Hauing procreate not without some paine and labour this little Treatise when I bâ—gan to view it I perceiued by the sirst face countenance thereof that of it felfe willingly it made retreate to your Highnesse for protection being in effect no other thing in regard of the matter but a surcle of that stocke or birth of that Booke whereof your Highnes is the Parent although the maner of handling it be so base and vnpolished as that it bewrayes it selfe altogether vnlike any thing proceeding from your Highnesse Yea also farre inferiouâ— vnto it to vse the words of Clâ—mens Alexandrinus which he borrowes from Plato comparing the giftes of Kings with other mens as Brasse or Iron is inferiour to Golde or siluer For there your Maiestie hath â—reated the present controuersies of Religion with such Learning as in a Prince may be admired seasoned with such loue and mildnesse of Spirit as might mooue them who are contrarie minded if they were not drunken with the Cup of the Whoore of Bâ—bâ—l and so had lost iudgement and vnderstaÌ„ding to acknowledge that it is no turbulent humor but the power of trueth no desire of contâ—ntion but the loue of all mens saluation hath carried your Maiestie vnto it So hath it pleased God to be fauourable to this I le and by your Maiestie to blesse vs that there neâ—des not now a Iustiâ—e nor a Terâ—ulliâ—n to write Apologies of our Christian faith to any Antoninus or any other such like Impie pio Imperaâ—ori wee haue a most Christian King a pâ—ofessour of the Gospell withâ— vs a protector of vs with it a Semi-martyr an Abimelech A Father King an other Salomon a Coheleth such a king as is a Preacher of that truth whereof his Highnesse is professor whose Palaces and Tables are as was said of the Courts of Theodosius iunior Schooles of Diuinitie wherein ignorants are instructed Apostates conuerted good Christians daily confirmed and as if this were yet too little an open coÌ„fessor before the world a publicke patrone of the truth by Apologies learnedly penned whereby his Highnesse reacheth to these to whome by speech hee can not attaine and so makes the light of the Gospell shine to other Princes of the World who as yet mislike it onely because they misknow it Neither can it be told whether your Highnesse indeuour to propagate the truth of Christian Religion among such as haue it not or to conserue it where it is already embraced be greater the care of all the Reformed Churches in Europe after a sorte lying vpon your Highnesse By your Authoritie they are protected by your Learning instructed by your Pietiâ— coÌ„firmed by your Highnesse wise godly and peaceable Councell vnited where the sire of vnnecesâ—ary contentioÌ„ is subtilly kindled by Sathan for disturbance of the Church and disgrace of the Gospel By your Highnesse prouidence happily spâ—edely and wisely it is quenched the benefit whereof the Churches both of Fraunce and and Flanders lately haue found and thankes God and your Maiestie for it And if yet any further proofe of your Highnesse most intire affection toward Christ and his câ—use bee required of any man May hee not see your Maiestie willingly bearing Babels indignation for Ierusalems sake Are not their raylings threatnings contradictions treasonable imaginations patiently suffered for Christes sake Is their not a sensible losse sustained for the Gospels sake Is not alliance with Labans house for Religions cause preferred to the friendship of the most puissant Princes of Canaan But yet what speake I of losse since losse for Christs sake can not bee not indeede what seemes a losse shaâ—l bee found a vantage for Where the wayes of man please the Lord he shall make his enemies his friends euen Mamre Eschol and Aner Abimelech and his Captaine Phicol Princes of Canaan shall sue to Abraham for friendship and seeke to bee in couenant with him becausâ— they see that God is with him in all that he does And if yet Ieroboam with his complices will be enemies to Dauids Kingdome then hath your Maiesty in readinesse the answere of Abâ—ah vnto them With you indeede is the multitude but with it yee haue the golden Calues which you haue made for your gods and shall be your destruction but wee belong to the Lord our God and behold this God is with vs as a Captaine and his seruants with sounding Trumpets to crie an Alarum against you For God from aboue hath indued your Highnesse with his heauenly wisedome which â—ath this annexed promise Exalt her and shee shall exalt thee shee shall bring thee to honour if thou embrace her The Lord shall be thine assurance and hee shall preserue thy soote from falling And with this great benefit of pure Religion we enioy vnder your Highnesse most happie Gouernment there is conioyned such a peace as no age heretofore hath affoorded no care of any Prince could effectuate for now by your Highnesse authoritie the most Rebellious people are made peaceable and the Scepter of Christ is reuerenced there where all sorts of violence rapine murther villanie did raigne before so that now to your Maiestie most iustly belongs that pâ—â—ise which of olde was giuen to Constantine and written in his triumphall Chariot Liberator vrbis sundator quietis Or which Nazianzen gaue to Olympius O negotiorum arbiter publicarum rerum corrector vtrunque tiâ—i diuinitus concessum qui etiam hoc pietatis praemium acceâ—isâ—i vtres tibi ex animi sententia fluant soâ—usque ea assequi possis quae omnibus alijs negata sunt Prudentiae enim sortitudinis ductu imperium administras quarum altera quae facienda suâ—t excogitat altera quod excogitatum est facile exequitur huc quod maximum est accedit manus puritas integritas qua omnia reguntur An arbiter and decider of difficult controuersies a corrector of the publicke State and both of these â—re committed to your Highnesse of God from whome your Maiestie hath receiued also this reward of piety that matters succeed vnto your Highnesse according to your hearts desire and your Highnesse onely hath attained to do that which is denied vnto others And which yet is most of all hereunto is ioyned the puritie and integritie of your hands whereby all things are ruled Your Highnesse hath not liued like an Achabâ— to spoile any Naboth of his Vineyard nor like a Manasseh to defile
by Augustine who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultuâ—â— Dei iudicium pertinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur It pertaines to Gods secret iudgement that the wicked are seduced by Antichrist Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt They shall bee deceiued who haue deserued to bee deceiued because they receiue not the loue of the truth and yet more feareful is the sentence which he subioynes Iudicati seducentur seducti iudicabuntur when they are iudged they shall be deceiued and because they were deceiued they shal be iudged ouer againe they are first iudged by the iudgement of God secretly iust and iustly secret whereby now hee punisheth the sinnes of men deliuering them to the Spirit of errour that receiued not the loue of his truth and because they were deceiued they shall be iudged againe in that last and manifest iudgment to bee made by Christ Iesus who was vniustly iudge himselfe but most iustly shall iudge the World This Commentarie makes it cleare that Papistrie is not onely a sinne but a present punishment of God inflicted on man for sinne specially for contempt of the Gospell and a procurement of that fearefull wrath that is to come which if it were considered men would not esteeme Papistrie so indifferent a thing as they doe R. God be mercifull to them who yet are blinded with these errours and Lord make mee thankefull who hath begunne to deliuer mee from that darkenesse the Lord illuminate mee more and more with his light that I may know his way and may receiue grace to follow it C. Amen But now I remember I promised before to declare vnto you that Papistrie impugnes both the Person and offices of Christ and so in effect denies that Iesus the Sonne of Marie is the Christ. R. That is most strange C. It is indeede and yet it is true as you shalâ— perceiue if you goe through the principall Articles of our faith And first to begin at Christ person that of many wee may touch a few We beleeue that Iesus Christ is both God and man R. And who denies that C. You know that old Arriuâ— denied his Diuinitie and now Papistes denie his humanitie R. How can you say that C. Because they worshippe and adore a Christ who is not come in the flesh To cleare this I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles 1. Ioh. 4. Beloved beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits if they be of God because many false Prophets are gone out into the World In this the spirit of God is knowne Euerie spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ to haue come in the flesh is of God There is a golden rule for vs and them both and marke there the opposition Euerie spirit that saith otherwise is the spirit of Antichrist R. Let it be so What is that against Papists C. Yea it is against them directly for the word teacheth vs to worship Christ Conceiued of the holy Ghost horne of the Virgine Marie But they worshippe Christ created by a Priest not conceiued by the holy Ghost a Christ whose fleshe is made of Breade by Transubstantiation whereby they destroy the Article of his Incarnation R. But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie C. If it bee the same Christ then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of Dauid by the operation of the Holy Ghost but this Christ whom they worship in the Masse hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this worke Creatorem sui Creatoris a Creatour of his Creatour R. But saith not our Lord that the Bread giuen in the Sacrament is his Bodie C. Yea indeede and so wee beleeue it is for it is no naked nor common bread that hoe giues vs there the giuing of that bread It is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Communion of his blessed bodie R. But if it bee Bread how can it be his body C. It is needlesse to demaund how Since he hath said it but I beleeue it is his body R. But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstantiate bread into his body C. And I pray you may not Christ of his omnipotent power and truth giue mee his body except hee turne bread into his bodie R. I dare not say so C. And you haue reason The Papists charge vs that wee denie Gods omnipotencie but the fault is theirs they denie his omnipotencie when they say hee can not giue vs his body in the Sacrament except hee make his body of bread Doe they not here limit the Lord R. Well I see it is great wisedome to ponder euery thing we beleeue in the ballance of Gods word I wold not haue thought there had beene sucâ—â—lasphemie against the person of Christ in that Doctrin of Transubstantiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly C. You may ioyne to this another testimonie of the Apostle Hebrewes 13. Iesus Christ yesterday this day and the same for euer R. What will that make against them C. That they are blinde to worship a Christ this daie who was not a Christ yesterday for you know they grant themselues that before consecration the bread is not Christ. R. It is true indeed C. Then you may perceiue it is but an artificiall Christ made by man whom they worshippe and not â—he true Christ. Thus you see how they are iniurious to his person for the which cause I said to you that Papists by necessitie of consequence denie Iesus the sonne of Marie to bee the Christ. Now to his Offices they are all comprised vnder the name Christ for he is the anoynted King Prophet and Priest of his Church R. And they will grant all that vnto you C. I know in word they will but in effect they take his Offices from him R. How can that be C. You shall see how what thinke you is the office of a Prophet R. To teach C. You say verie well and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised vp among his brethren And the great Angell of the counsell of God who came into the World to reueile perfectly vnto the Church the will of God concerning mans saluation and Gods worship so that now once for all God hath spoken to vs in these last dayes by his sonne and we haue not to expect from any other any further declaration of his will R. I thinke no man wil denie that C. You shall heare how it is denied if first I make the point more clear vnto you you know that the father proclaimed from Heauen first at Iordan then at mount Tabor This is my welbeloued sonne in whom I am well pleased heare him See you not here how we are plainly commaunded to learne Gods will concerning our Saluation
here that the Apostle repeating this so oft that Christ was once offered for taking away our sinnes destroyeth all other pretended sacrifices for sinne and specially that sacrifice of the Masse which they say is a propitiatorie sacrifice for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead R. Truely the places are so plaine that very children may vnderstand them and I would God that these poore people who of a blind mind dote after Masses thinking by it to gette the pardon of their sinnes had this benefite of Gods word as you haue it that so by the light of it they might come to the knowledge of the truth C. And I wish the same from my heart But now to confirm you yet further I pray you mark how blasphemous and deceitfull a thing their Masse is First is not this a mockerie of GOD the Father To desire him to accept his owne Sonne Is Christ out of the fauour of his Father said he not He is my Son in whom I am well pleased shall a mortal miserable sinful Priest be a Mediatour or Peacemaker betweene the Father and the Sonne praying the Father that he would accept his Sonne and send downe an Angell to take vp his bodie into Heauen R. Fie vpon it It is a vile blasphemie C. Secondly see you not how it inverts Gods ordinance for where hee hath ordained a Sacrament wherein God offers and giues his Sonne to vs they haue changed it into a sacrifice wherein they offer vp the Son to the Father R. I see that also C. Thirdly Is it not an iniurious thing to Christ to say that any can offer him vp to God but himselfe R. It is indeâ—de for as no other Sacrifice can satisfie Gods iustice so no other sacrificer can bee worthie to offer him but himselfe as is cleare out of your former Testimonies C. Fourthly Is it not a deceiuing of the people to say that an vnbloudie Sacrifice such as they say the Masse is can bee propitiatorie to obtaine remission of sinnes R. It is indeed and expresly against the Word of God you haue alledged Without shedding of bloud there is no remission they grant themselues that in the Masse there is no shedding of bloud and how then can it giue pardon or remission of sinnes C. Well then since by this you see how they derogate froÌ„ Christs sacrifice which is the first part of Christes priestly office I will now let you see how they also cut away the other namely his intercession Marke that place of the Apostle There is one God and one Mediator of God and Man the Man Christ Iesus R. They haue a distinction for that and say there is but one Mediator of redemption but for Intercession many C. But will you consider the place and you shall see where the Apostle sayes there is but one Mediator he is speaking of Intercession and praying and so his meaning must be There is one Mediator of Intercession read the place and see R. I see it is so indeed C. Now with it wil you but ioyne this place of Augustine Qui pro omnibus interpellat pro quo autem nullus is verus vnicus mediator est He that interceeds for al for whom none interceedes is the onely true Mediator And there hee sayes it should bee a great absurdity if Paul were called a Mediator for so there should be many Mediators of Intercession R. But should not Christians interceede one of them for an other as wee are commanded One of you pray for an other C. They should indeed but you must vnderstand that this and the like precepts are for Christians here militant on earth in one communion wherin alike one of them is bound to helpe an other by their praiers R. But do not they who are in heauen pray for the Church militant on earth C. I thinke they doe in general but not vpon any particular knowledge of our priuat necessities troubles or tentations R. How can that be C. You may soon vnderstand how for if they know your griefes it is either by hearing of your words or vnderstanding of your thoughts or by some Reuelation made to them Thinke yee they know your thoghts R. No indeed that is proper to God C. Think you they hear your voice when you expresse in prayer your thoughts by your words R. I cannot thinke that neither since they want their bodies which haue the organs of hearing C. Then they must know it by Reuelation R. It is most likely that when wee pray God tels them our necessities C. What neede you then to pray them to interceede for you R. But how shall wee goe to a King but by his Courtiers C. What a silly refuge is that You haue forgotten what you answered euen now See you not here how that similitude vsed by Papists is destroied to wit That as wee goe to earthly Kings by Courtiers so we shold goe to the King of Heauen by heauenly Courtiers for here it is not the Courtier that shewes our necessities to the King but the King you see shewes them to his Courtiers And would you not think him a foole who may haue the King himselfe to speake to and knowes hee will be welcome if he speake as hee should and yet passeth by the King and depends vpon Courtiers to haue his turne done by them R. I thinke no lesse then you say but how is it then they pray for vs in generall C. I will shew you how there are foure sorts of prayer one called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereby we craue â—uill to be diuerted from vs an other called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereby wee sâ—â—ke some good wee want to bee giuen vnto vs the third is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereby one of vs interceedes for an other and the fourth is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thanksgiuing for good receiued Now they who are in heauen are freede from tentation and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not ascribed to them neither yet is euer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in holy scripture giuen them They rest from their labours they are not busied to be patrones to seueral Countries Cities and Companies of people hauing the particular cures of seuerall diseases parted among them that is but a doting dreame of Papistriâ— but you will finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thanksgiuing ascribed to them and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too in generall whereby they pray for some good they yet want but look to enioy as is euident out of their owne words How long Lord for this is the voice of these who want some thing they would faine haue R. Tell me I pray you what want they who are in heauen C. First these glorified spirits want their bodies without the which they can neuer haue full contentment for the soule and body were created companions the perfection of both stands in the promised vnion of both R. I vnderstand that very well but want they no other thing for which they cry