that the people of Iudah were Gods true Church before the tyme of that oth and Covenant it is true and agaynst you And I would demaund of you whether your people were Gods true Church when Popery reigned Your answer is so may our people bee You dare not say they were for then you should acknowledge the Romish Synagogue the true Church of GOD and that you had sinfully schismed from it as Mr Bern. proves agaynst you and himselfe you will not say they were not for that would make against you in the poynt in hand and would manifest as in deed it doth that the course taken with Iudah being the true Church for her reformation cannot agree with Rome or Engl as a member of the Romish Church for her reformation To that which is added in the 3. place of Coventry Northampton and some other congregations my reply is first that this is not likely to have been the deed of the congregations but of some two or three forward ministers a few of the people it may be approving of it which their successours were as like to reverse 2. They did not repent of their publique idolatry nor purpose to obey the truth in sincerity of their prophane mixture Romish hierarchy and ministery popish leyturgy and constitutions according to which all things are administred amongst them they repented not and besides they knew right well many truthes which they purposed not to imbrace 3. graunt it were as they pretend with these few parishes what must be sayd of the rest which did not so practise with whom they make and alwayes have done one entyre nationall Church or what is this to the publique and formall state of the Church of England agaynst which we deale The truth is these men thus practising were reputed and truely schismatiques in the formall constitution of the Church and by which this their dealing hath no warrant at all If we should object vnto you the Papists doctrines and practises of two or three ministers amongst you not warrantable by law you would not admit of our exception agaynst the formall established estate of your Church so neyther may we admit of yours for the practise of two or three disliking the present state of things and seeking for reformation of them Lastly wee see indeed that those Ministers doubt not to affirme that the whole land Papists and Atheists and all did in the first Parliament of the Queen enter a solemn covenant for renouncing of Popery and receiving the gospel but we would see first how all these swarmes of wicked Atheists and most flagitious persons were by the revealed will of God capable of the covenant of the new testament and the seales and other rites and priviledges of it Otherwise this haling them into covenant with the Lord agaynst his expresse will was a prophane presumptuous enterprise in it self though I doubt not arising from a godly intent in the Queen her cheif connsellers being mislead by them whom they too much trusted 2. We would see what warrant there is in the new testament for this nationall covenant or that all the people in a Land since the Land of Canaan was prophaned should unite into a nationall Church vnder a nationall government and ministery 3. That which wee answered in the 2. place to the former branch of this exception must here agayn be remembred 4. this vndoubted affirmation of the ministers touching the whole lands covenanting in the Parliament first inferreth that the enacting of civil lawes and penall statutes by Kings and States doth gather CHVRCHES for none other covenant was there in the Parliament 2. It confirmeth the popish doctrine of implicite fayth that men may receive and professe a fayth whereof they are ignorant yea which they dislike and hate so farre as they know it for so was it with the body of your nation the greatest part by farr being mere naturall men and so not knowing the gospel yea evil doers which hate the light Our 2. objection touching the outward worship wherein the Ch of England communicateth comes now to be enforced In the clearing of which the Ministers do to speak on insist onely vpon their stinted set formes of prayer for the justification of which they bring sundry scriptures as Numb 6. 2. 3. 24. Deut. 26. 3. 15. Psal. 22. 1. 92. Luk. 11. 2. Now for our more orderly proceeding I will reduce the things they say to three generall heads vnder which I will consider of the particulars shewing how in all and every of them they are mistaken First in that they do confound and make all one ordinance Blessings Psalmes and Prayers 2. In misinterpreting the scriptures they bring to prove a set and stinted form of words to be imposed in prayer 3. In concluding as they do that if Moses and Christ might appoynt and impose a certayn form of words to be vsed for prayer that then the Bishops in England or others may vse the same power and appoint an other form of words so to be vsed Of these three in order And first it is evident that howsoever some kinde of blessing and prayer be all one and so may be confounded yet that solemn kinde of blessing spoken of Numb 6. and which the PATRIARKS and PREISTS did vse in their places was cleane of an other nature In prayer the MINISTER stands in place of the PEOPLE and in their name offers vp petitions and thanksgiving to GOD But in blessing the Minister stands in the place of God and in his name pronounceth a blessing or mercy vpon the people 2. Whereas this duety of prayer may be performed by one equall to another by an inferiour to a superiour yea by a mā to himself that other of blessing is alwayes from the greater to the lesser and therefore the Apostle to the Hebrews to shew that the Preisthood of Melchi-sedek was more excellent then that of Levi proves it by this that Melchisedec blessed Abraham taking this for granted without all contradiction that the lesse is blessed of the greater 3. Mr Ber himself in this book makes prayer one thing and the blessing pronounced vpon the people when they departed another thing as he also makes singing of psalmes a third distinct thing from them both as there is cause he should For first the Apostle writing to the Corinthians of the divers giftes and administrations in the Church speaketh thus I wil pray with the spirit but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirit but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Answerable vnto which is that in Iames Is any among you afflicted let him pray is any merry let him sing both the one and other Apostle making singing and praying distinct exercises Ad vnto this that whereas in praying we are to speak onely vnto God it is otherwise in singing where we are taught to speak vnto
contention as they and a thowsand worse evils could not but fall out in a Church gathered as yours is of all the prophane rable in a kingdome so when they do arise in a true Church there is power to voyd them out and the persons with them in whom they reigne But if the vnlawfulnes of a Church government might be proved by the pryde contention the like evils arising in it then surely M B. you that know so well how these and other mischeifs reign in your own should lay your hand on your mouth for shame and be affrayd to provoke any man to medle in that mattâ—â— Besides it is apparent both in the scriptures and ecclesiasticall writers that not onely pride and contention but herely and almost all other evils haue sprung from the officers governours in the Church And surely nothing hath more in former dayes advanced nor doth at this day more vphold the throne of Antichrist then the peoples discharging themselves of the care of publique affaires in the Church on the one side and the Preists and Prelates aâ—rogating all to themselves on the other side Lastly the word Church you say must be expounded figuratively to avoid the absurdâ—tâ—s which eâ—s would necessarily follow out of the text viz that the whole Church must speak ioyntly which were confusion contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 40. that women must medle in Church affaires which the Apostle forbids ver 34. that children must speak which were impossible so then it must needs â—e taken figuratively the part for the whole and if one part must be left out why not an other till the cheif of the Congregation be taken who are chosen by the rest as their mouth Touching the exception of confusion I desire the reader to remember what hath been formerly answered adding further that Mr B. herein doth not oppose vs but the Apostles and Apostolicall Churches governed by them yea the H. Ghost it self propounding their examples for our imitation The Apostle Peter Act. 1. 15. c. standing vp in the middest of the disciples which were about an hundred and twenty spake to them about the choise of one to succeed Iudas and it is sayd ver 23. that they that is these brethren to whom he spake presented two as also that the whole multitude Act. 6. 5. presented the seaven for Deacons to the twelve Apostles who are sayd v. 2. to haue called the multitude and to have spoken vnto them v. 6. to have prayed and layd hands on the elect Deacons Now might not any prophane spirit take vp M. B. words and insult over the holy Ghost himself and say what did all the disciples that were in the place an hundred and twenty present Ioseph and Mathias They must needs speak in presenting these two and spake they ioyntly or all at once this were confusion contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 14. did the women speak they must not medle in Church matters â— 34. did children speak it is impossible So for Act. 6. did all the twelve Apostles speak at once v. 2. and pray at once v. 6. did the whole multitude speak ioyntly when they presented the 7. Deaconâ— v. 6. here were the like confusion and besides here were women and children in the Church also Now let the indifferent reader judge what M. B. hath sayd more against vs then any Lucian or scoffing Atheist might obiect against the spirit of God himself and his holy pen-man the Evangelist Yea further by these and the like consequences women and children are vtterly excluded from the Church as no parts of it Luke sayth Act. 15. 22. that the whole Church sent messengers to Antiochia and Paul 1 Cor. 14. 23. speakes of the whole Churches comming together in one to exercise themselves in prayer prophesying and the like parts of Church communion but children neyther could send messengers nor pray nor prophesie nor the like and women might not speak in the Church and therefore both they must be left out of the Church and if one part why not an other so till we come to the cheif of the congregation that they alone may be the Church and all in all as it is iust with God that he which opposeth the truth should oppose himself also so doth Mr B. in this very place intaÌ„gle himself in the same absurdities wherin he would ensnare vs. First he affirms the Church Math. 1â— must be the principall of the congregation Then Mr B. is not your congregation the true Church of Christ for the principall of your Church namely your self hath no power to excommunicate And say not for shame the Archdeacon or officiall are principalls or lesse principalls of your congregation Again which is the cheif thing I desire may be observed you say these principalls must be chosen by the rest of the Church be their mouth and stand for the whole And how chosen must the whole Church speak joyntly when they chuse them that were confusion must women speak that is contrary to the scriptures Yet are they members of the congregation and so are young youthes childreÌ„ and servants I adde further the Church you say is two or three principall members Well then they two or three must speak to the party how can he els heare but for two or three to speak together is confusion and contrary to the coÌ„maundement 1 Cor. 14. 31. for all must speak by one one And by this time I hope you are ashamed of such tristing as here you vse I do therefore answer in few words it is not necessary that every one of the people should speak to the offender no nor of the officers neyther If but one officer do sufficiently evince and reprove the party what needs more speak The rest both Officers people may manifest their consent eyther by voice signe or silâ—nce yet so as liberty be preserved for any in place and order to speak eyther by way of addition limitation or dissent And for women they are debarred by their sâ—x as from ordinary prophecying so from any other dealing wherin they take authority over the man 1 Cor 14. 34. 35. 1 Tim. 2. 11. 12. yet not simply from speaking they may make profession of faith or confession of sin say Amen to the Churches prayers sing Psalmes vocally accuse a brother of sin witnes an accusation or defend themselves being accused yea in a case extraordinary namely where no man will I see not but a woman may reprove the Church rather then suffer it to go on in apparent wickednes and communicate with it therein Now for children and such as are not of yeares of discretion God and nature dispenseth with them as for not communicating in the Lords supper now so vnder the law for not offering sacrifices from which none of yeares were exempted neyther is there respect of persons with God in the common duties of Christianity And for that so oft reinforced objection of authority given to
is a supernaturall thing and cannot possibly be yeelded vnto voluntarily by a naturall man or perswaded but by a supernaturall motive which is onely it self that by the operation of the spirit also in some measure it cannot be vnderstood and beleeved but by it self published and proclaymed as the sun is seen by it own light much lesse can it be willed and willingly yeelded vnto for the will must follow the vnderstanding neyther can any man will that he knowes not Besides the many treasons and great rebellions raysed to reestablish Popery in the laÌ„d the great good liking of the old law as they term it which still is found in the multitude and the apparant hatred and persequution against the true profession of the gospel in any measure though there be ten now for one in the beginning of the Queens reign that haue atteyned to some measure of knowledge and conscience of godlynes do confirm that which I say viz that the yeelding vnto the gospell in the multitude could not be voluntary The three scriptures you bring to shew that the agreement of the cheif is accounted in the case of faith and religion the act of all though the inferiours give not their consent is by you egregiously perverted for they do all every one of them plainly prove the peoples consent The first is Exod. 19. 3. 7. 8. where v 3. the Lord signifies his wil vnto Moses and v 7. Moses propounds the same things vnto the Elders and v 8. all the people viz having the same things by the Elders propounded to them as Iunius vpon that place and so will any man of common sense noteth promise obedience to all the Lords commandements The second place is Iosh. 4. 2. 8. where it is evident to him that reads the scripture quoted with it that which is written ch 3. 9. and Deut. 27. 1. 2 3. c. that the twelve men that took the twelve stones out of the miâ—des of lorden for a memoriall of the peoples safe passing over did it with the distinct knowledge and actuall consent of the multitude and of all the people as is sayd v 1. who are also expresly commanded by Ioshua v 2. of the same chapt and v 12. of the chapt before going to chuse or take these twelve men for the purpose before named Lastly for 2. Chron. 14 as â—t is true that Asa the King did provoke the rest to seek the Lord both by his example and authority so is it as true that the people sought the Lord their God with him and as vntrue that any did by his power obey in fear as you affirm The Lord himself testifies expresly against you and that all Iudah Beniamin assembled in Ierusalem and made a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their hart and with all their sowl of whom also it is witnessed accordingly that they swore vnto the Lord with all their heart and sought him with a whol desire And for the point it self howsoever in bodily things the people may refer themselves to the determinations of their superiours and may bind themselves to rest in them as in their own acts though they neyther take knowledge of nor give consent vnto the things in particular yea though they be to their bodyly domage yet in the matters of faith and religion it is clean otherwise and to hold the same proportion is a very popish errour which makes the governours Lords over the peoples faith And thus at the last am I got back whence I digressed will now proceed in the examination of such reasons as Mr B brings to prove that profane persons or to vse his own words men of lewd conversation are not false matter of the Church To which purpose he first distinguisheth true matter into good and bad and so taking that which is bad naught vnto himself for the matter of his Church he will yet have it true and no false matter And this distinction of his he labours to exemplifie by similitude and to confirm by example The similitude he borrowes from a materiall house and the matter of it timber stone which makes eyther nothing to the matter in hand or if any thing against himself If there can possibly be any false matter of an house then rotten timber is false matter and so wicked and vnrepentant sinners dead and rotting in the grave of sinne are false matter in proportion but if there can be no false matter of a materiall house then he may see how maymed his comparison is when the termes of the one side are impossible Howsoever it is evident that the house of God the Church is a spirituall house made of lively stones built vpon that lifegiving foundation Christ Iesus And as a man or other living creature being once become dead naturally cannot be called a true man naturally so neyther can a man spiritually dead in trespasses and sinnes be called a true man spiritually and therefore not true matter of that spirituall house the Church The things you further adde namely that all Churches have in them good and bad matter that men deserving iustly to be cast out are not false matter nor so cast out of the Church but as bad matter but true that excommunicates are still brethren by their professioÌ„ are all of them so many devises of your own without proof or truth For first it is not true that all Churches which you take for such have in them good matter for there may be by your owne graunt true Churches by their profession consisting onely of wicked persons which you acknowledge bad matter though true and there are full many parish Churches in Engl wherein he that should be put to find any good matter yea one holy and sanctifyed man had need with the Cynick Phylosopher seek it oâ— him with a candle at noon day neyther is it true on the other side that all Churches haue in them bad matter there are Churches in the world wherein by the mercy of God and power of his ordinances there is no visible bad matter that is no person of known lewd conversation els God forbid You wrong the Churches of Christ and deceive the Christian reader where in the shutting vp of this point you perswade him that he shall find ever cause thus to be affected and to greive viz at lewd persons in the Church wheresoever he comes He may and ought to come where there is no such cause of greif nor by the grace of our God assisting vs shal be without reformation though you measure others by your own lyne Now for the second poynt nothing can be more vntruely affirmed then that the Church may cast out any part or parcel of her true matter For first all the true matter of the Church hath vpon it the form of the Church and so is of the essence and being of the Church which for the Church to cast out
and brethren with them are one the same publique body to be exercised in one and the same part of their publique communion and to make the officers publick persons and the brethren private in the cōmunion is to make a schisme in the Church and to make the brethren part of the cōmunion in the administration of the word sacraments prayer singing of Psalmes contribution calling of officers censuring of offenders or other Church action whatsoever private and the officers publik is to make it schismatical them in it schismatiks Thus much of the 9. errour objected The tenth foloweth which is that we say Their worship is a false worship For answer vnto this assertion Mr B refers vs to the end of this treatise and there then will wee attend for it yet somewhat will he say against it that is First that they worship no false God 2. that they worship the true God with no false worship We charge you not with the worship of any false God though wee shall see by by how in one particular you will defend your selves But the thing you should have endeavoured is to prove that your divine-service-book framed by man and by man imposed to be vsed without addition or alteration as the solemn worship of your Church is that true and spirituall manner of worshiping God which he hath appointed with which he will be worshiped in spirit trueth Of this you say little or nothing but bycause you seem to your self to say somewhat wee will see what it is The word you say preached is the true word the sacraments true sacraments the prayers we pray whether conceived or set and stinted are such as may be warranted by the word and agreable to the prescript form taught by our saviour Christ. The word preached in popery or in the most haereticall assembly in the world is the true word but the devises of men are not the true word eyther with you or them Yea the divels thēselues preached the true word when they affirmed and published that Iesus was that Christ the sonne of God the most High did they therefore perform vnto God true worship Of the sacraments I have spokē formerly have shewed that in the administration of them they cannot be reputed true It is the word of promise that makes the sacraments except then the parish assemblies joyntly considered in their members have right unto the spirituall promises of God the sacraments administred in and vnto them in that their estate cannot so be accounted true sacraments For your prayers I observe sundry things out of your own words which I may not passe over as first that you speak not properly no nor truely in saying you pray stinted prayers for you read them and who will say reading is praying you pray to God but will you say you read to God or if you so say and do is it agreable eyther to his ordinance or to cōmon reason Mistake me not as though I speak of inward prayer or of the lifting vp of the hart for I graunt a man may pray inwardly or lift vp the heart to God when he reads or preaches or sings or receives the sacraments of such prayer we neyther speak nor can discern but in our selves our speach then being of the outward act ordinance of prayer I do affirm and so marvayl if all reasonable men concurre not with me that the ordinance of reading cannot be the ordinance of praying 3. In your division of prayer wherin you make some conceived and some set and stinted you graunt that the prayers which are set and stinted are not conceived wherein you do as much as graunt that they are not of God nor according to his will The Apostle Iude directeth vs alwayes to pray in the holy Ghost and Paul teacheth that we cannot pray as we ought but as the spirit helpeth vs and begetteth in vs sighs vnutterable by the work of which spirit if our prayers be not conceived first in our hearts before they be brought forth in our lips they are an vnnaturall bastardly and prophane byrth Lastly if your stinted prayer be as you say agreable to the prescript forme of prayer taught by our saviour Christ then must none other form of prayer be vsed but a stinted or set form for none other form may be vsd but that which is agreable to the prescript form of Christ since Christ hath sayd after this manner pray Where you further add that nothing is imposed or done by you for the worship of God but the word read and preached and the sacraments and prayer I demaund of your first in worship or honour of whō are your holy dayes bearing the names of S. Michaels S. Peters S. Iohns day and the rest imposed and kept if in the honour of the Saynts Angels then are you not cleare as you make your selves from the worshipping of false Gods neyther can you exempt your selves from the number of them which in voluntary religion worship Angels if on the other side those dayes be appoynted and so kept holy in the worship and honour of God then do you and that by authority worship God by and put holines in other things then the word read preached and the sacraments and prayer yea and other things then ever came into the Lords heart to sanctify for his worship And so the place Math. 15. 9. and other scriptures to that purpose are truely though you say falsely alledged against you 2. I do demaund of you whether your Apocrypha books namely that which is placed betwixt both testaments causing the Iewes to think the new testament no better then the fables which are ioyned to it as a learned man of our nation hath observed and the other book of Homilies be enjoyned and vsed as parts of Gods worship It is evident they are so held And therefore it is that a great portion of the former is preferred in the most solemn assemblyes before the canonicall scriptures and the reading of them before the reading of the other which they justle out of their place And for the homilyes they are enioyned and so vsed in stead of the preaching of the word which is the principall part of Gods worship wherevpon it followeth that the Apocrypha wrytings of mē being preferred before one part of Gods worship which is the reading of the Canonicall scriptures and vsed in stead of an other part of Gods worship yea and that the principall part as is preaching are imposed and so vsed as partes of Gods worship So that it is not without good cause M Ber that M Ainsworth bids you prove the Apocrypha scriptures and books of Homilies the true word of God Nothing you tel vs is imposed and vsed amongst you for the worship of God but the true word of God read and preached and the sacraments and prayer now these being imposed and vsed for the