be set and fixed so as it may not be lawfull for the Ministers to recede from it in their function as well to help and assist the simplicity and unskilfulness of some as to give a fuller evidence of the consent and uniformity of all the several Congregations and finally that by this means the changeable humour of those that affect novelties may be check'd and obviated E. D. I always thought Calvin had been of the same judgment that we are though you would seem to persuade me to the contrary But to make an end of our Discourse at this time I shall onely ask you one question more and then I have done which is this What your French Divines judge concerning us who for Conscience sake refuse to make use of the Liturgy in our Assemblies or to frequent the Congregations of those that do F. P. What you desire you may find in the forementioned Discourse of Dr. Durel where he sets down this Letter of the Reverend Monsieur Goyon Minister at Bordeaux which is thus translated SIR I Have received your Letter with an extreme satisfaction as having been informed thereby both of your own condition and of that of the Church of England I must confess that we have been strangely deceived in this Countrey by what hath been related to us touching the English Presbyterians I did always imagine them to be a People that followed the same order we observe in our Churches of France but it seems they are very far from it The Description you give of them shews them to be a strange Sect not fit to be tolerated and I conceive that the best remedy of this disorder and confusion would be to reduce them all to the Episcopal Government for I hold it impossible that the Church of England should ever be quiet or flourish otherwise The Convocation comes in a very fit time for this purpose and I question not but that Assembly will take order about it which will be a great satisfaction to me for otherwise you will be continually in trouble and the Adversaries will take advantage thereby either to blemish and slander our Religion or to contrive and foment Plots against the State I beseech the Lord that he would be pleased to rule and govern that Holy Assembly and pour his Blessings upon their Determinations for the Advancement of his Kingdom E. D. Though this Man saith too much yet he saith nothing in particular to the point of our refusing to reade the Common-prayer in our Assemblies and to frequent the Churches where it is read F. P. If you think that Monsieur Goyon doth not speak home enough to the matter in question be pleased to reade what Ludovicus Capellus Divinity-Professor at Saumur saith to it in the Body of Divinity published by him and his two Collegues Moses Amyraldus and Joshua Placaeus in which Book this Learned Man having at large proved the Lawfulness Vse and Necessity of a set Form of Liturgy in opposition to the then newly started Directory which the Presbyterians endeavour'd to establish instead of the Common-prayer It is also worthy our noting that he maintain'd a publick Dispute on this Subject in the Divinity-School wherein he defended the Common-prayer of the Church of England as good sound and expedient against the Cavils and Objections of the Presbyterians even at that very time when the Opposers of set Forms were in the greatest power in this Kingdom and that it was generally believed the Liturgy of the Church of England would never have been restored E. D. But what saith he in particular of us for if you don't tell me I shall scarce take the pains of reading over his Book to inform my self F. P. I am unwilling to give you his words because I fear you 'll find some of his Expressions too sharp and cutting E. D. As long as I suppose he was no English Tory I shall take all he saith of us in good part F. P. Towards the end of his first Thesis he saith Vnum superest examinandum c. which in English speaks thus There remains yet one thing to be enquir'd into viz. Whether there ought to be a certain set Form of Liturgy consisting of express words or Whether it ought rather to be left to the will of the Pastor to use what words or form he pleaseth and this because of a new Generation of late Upstarts which will admit of no certain and prescribed Form of Liturgy neither in the publick Assemblies of the Church nor in private Devotions but maintain that all ought to be left to the pleasure of Ministers and the Heads of Families And in his sixth Thesis he declares That the several Authors of the Reformation had every where compos'd and prescrib'd several set Forms of Liturgy and that the same were still made use of by the Reformed Churches in their several Nations and Districts with happy success and edification till of late there arose in England a froward scrupulous and over nice not to say superstitious Generation of men who thought good not onely to blame and find fault with but wholly to abrogate and cast off the Liturgy hitherto used in their Church instead whereof they have introduc'd their Directory as they call it He adds further That the Reasons and Causes you pretend to have for abolishing the Common-prayer were levissimae nulliusque pene momenti very slight and scarce of any moment at all And in Thesis 28. he saith Certainly nothing else has stirred up these men so eagerly to reject all manner of set Forms of Prayer but partly the desire of innovating and corrupting to the end that under the specious pretext of Liberty to pray and prophesie they might introduce all manner of Sects and Errors into the Church and partly their false and prejudicate opinion persuading themselves that we are now arriv'd at that time wherein as in the days of the Apostles the Spirit of Prophecy of prayer and Supplications is to be poured forth upon the present Church according to that of Joel 2.28 and Zach. 12. v. 10. which is the common and most pestilent Error of all the Phanaticks concerning the sending of the H. Ghost by Christ c. And drawing up his whole Dissertation into certain Conclusions he saith Thesis 49. The use of these set Forms of Prayer cannot justly be condemned forasmuch as the same may be always and every where profitable and convenient and because they have been receiv'd by the universal Christian Church for these 1300 years all the World over except onely among these new-fangled Independents so he calls all those who reject the use of set Forms And Thesis 50. he adds further So that the perversness peevishness and superstition or rather the malapert and obstinate wilfulness of these men is both prodigious and sensless who out of a mere humour or desire of lawless licentiousness or out of design to introduce confusion into the Church do superstitiously condemn and compare to an Idol forbidden by the fourth Commandment a thing which in it self is most innocent the use of it edifying and the practice of it most convenient which has long obtained in the Universal Church was never yet condemned by any Church and which all the Churches of God make use of with the greatest benefit that may be which yet these men most foolishly would have all to forbear and abhor And lastly in 51 Thesis he saith And amongst the rest those are most to be detested who either will not allow the Lord's Prayer to be said at all or will have it said alone and not in conjunction with any other Prayer whether publick or private and who think it a great sin for any godly man to be present either in the Church at Common-prayer or in any Family at private Devotions where any set Form is used and hold this for a just cause of Separation from the Church lest they should be Partakers of the Sins of those who use set Forms and thereby become defiled being not unlike to those of whom the Prophet Isaiah speaks chap. 6. v. 5. which say Stand by thy self come not near me for I am holier than thou these are a smoak in my nostrils saith the Lord that is they kindle my wrath against them The Lord grant they may return to a better mind Amen And so say I too Amen Amen And thus I take my leave of you in the words of this Learned and most Renowned Divine E. D. But pray why in such haste We have not yet made an end of our dispute for when I told you I had done I meant with your Liturgy Wherefore now it remains that we discourse concerning the Ceremonies of your Church which I intended for a Second Part of this our Conference F. P. If I be not mistaken we have discours'd long enough for once besides I must give you time to consider what hath been said and if you chance to approve it and desire further to discourse me about the Ceremonies of the Church I now assure you that I shall at any time be ready to serve you to the utmost of my power The End of the First Part.
And in the first place I think it ought to be taken away because it is unlawfull to have a set Form of Prayer impos'd upon the Church F. P. Either you or I Sir are strangely mistaken in this point for I must own that my Judgment always hath been that it is not onely lawfull to have a set Form of Prayer in the Church but what is more that no Church can well be without one E. D. Pray how so Sir For if I be not greatly mistaken you speak now against the General sense of the French Protestants for I never heard that they had any set Forms of Prayer F. P. I perceive Sir you have been ill inform'd concerning these matters for the truth is we French Protestants have a Common-prayer-book which was compos'd by Calvin himself and therein we agree with the concurring practise of the Universal Church for I never read or heard of any Church in the World but had a set Form of Prayer so that for you to oppose it is no less than to deny the Authority Testimony and Practise of all the Saints of the Old and New Testaments both Prophets and Apostles and the express Command of our Saviour himself and in a word Sir you condemn the general sense and practise of Christianity and the Holy Catholick Church E. D. I hear what you say Sir and expect you should prove it F. P. Nay more than this you contradict the Example of our great Lord and Master the Founder of our Religion and the Author and Finisher of our Faith E. D. This is a high Charge indeed but pray be pleas'd to make it out F. P. That I will Sir First I say that you contradict the Authority and Practice of the Prophets in the Old Testament forasmuch as it is evident that they made use of set Forms of Prayer and had a particular Command so to doe to be convinc'd of this be pleas'd to reade the 26th Chapter of Deuteronomy from Verse 13. to 16. and the 14th Chapter of Hosea beginning at the second Verse Take with you words and turn unto the Lord and say unto him c. and the 2d of Joel Verse 17. Let the Priests the Ministers of the Lord weep between the Porch and the Altar and let them say Spare thy people O Lord c. Secondly You contradict the Command of our Lord and Saviour and the Practice of the holy Apostles which I prove from the 11th Chapter of St. Luke the 1st and 2d Verses where we reade that one of our Saviour's Disciples asked him in the Name of all his Companions to teach them to pray as John had taught his Disciples whereupon our Saviour addressing himself to all his Disciples said When ye pray say Our Father c. From whence I infer these two things First That the Apostles had a set Form of Prayer prescrib'd them by Christ himself for it is impossible to order any Form in more plain and express terms than our Saviour makes use of in recommending this Prayer to his Disciples Secondly I conclude from hence that the Disciples made use of this Form which will not be question'd if we consider the great desire they shewed to obtain this Form of Prayer from our Saviour and the readiness wherewith they always obeyed the Commands he laid upon them So that this cannot but be a sufficient proof to any thinking Man that when they prayed they made use of this Form or Prescription their blessed Lord and Master had at their request given them with this express Command When you pray say Our Father c. 3. You oppose the General Practice of Christendom and of the Holy Catholick Church because neither your self nor any Man else can give an instance of any Church in the World from the Apostles times to these our days but what had a set Form of Prayers for though all have not used the same yet there is no Church but has used some Form or other 4. You condemn the Example and Practice of our dear Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ himself for it is evident that he himself made use of a Form of Prayer Matt. 26. v. 44. E. D. I will not undertake now to return you a particular Answer to what you have here alledged but shall onely say that Praying by a Form has by experience been found a hindrance and obstacle to true fervent Prayer in the Spirit and to deal plainly with you this seems to be one great reason why the Ministers of the Church of England are so dull and ignorant in this point and so little acquainted with spiritual Prayer F. P. I am not a little surpriz'd at this your Answer for having but just now proved to you that the Prophets and Apostles the Holy Catholick Church and Christ himself made use of Forms of Prayer you after all this come and tell me that Praying by Forms is a hindrance to Praying by the Spirit which is as much as to say that neither the Prophets Apostles the Catholick Church nor Christ himself prayed by the Spirit because they made use of a set Form which is a near step to Blasphemy E. D. I did not design to say so much neither though I must confess that Praying by a set Form seems to me for I find it so by experience to be a great Obstacle to true spiritual Prayer F. P. Though it may seem so to you yet your Charity should lead you rather to question your own Judgment than to pass so rash a Censure upon the Saints of the Old and New Testament yea upon Christ himself besides you ought to be very wary of exposing your self to the derision of all men by supposing your self wiser than all the Prophets and Apostles than the whole Christian Church and Christ himself since it is most certain that they made use of Forms and not onely so but our Saviour himself prescribed a Form of Prayer to his Disciples commanding them when they prayed to use the same which he would never have done had it indeed been so great a hindrance to servent Prayer by the Spirit as you pretend E. D. If it be not a hindrance to others I am sure 't is so to me F. P. I hope I shall understand you better if you please to explain to me what you mean by praying by the Spirit E. D. I suppose no true Christian can be ignorant of what Praying by the Spirit is and therefore I can't see any necessity there is of explaining a thing so obvious to the understanding of all F. P. Since you seem unwilling to give me your meaning I am very free to give you mine to pray by the Spirit is as I take it to pray by the help and assistance of the Holy Ghost so as to have our hearts and minds deeply affected with the sense of our wants and all our Faculties and Affections inflamed with the Love of God and stedfast Faith in his Promises E. D. I perceive we do not
disagree at all in the meaning of the words F. P. I am glad we are so far agreed for it is evident that according to this meaning of the words a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance that indeed it is a great help to fervent praying by the Spirit and on the contrary Extemporary Prayer must needs be a great impediment to it To convince you of this I desire you would consider that when we pray by a Form we have more time to study the import of our Requests and to weigh and examine every Petition with greater attention we have more leisure to understand and discern our wants and to present them before God we can the better prepare and dispose our selves for so holy a Duty and in a word we can be more intent and recollected to improve the motions of the Spirit having nothing else to doe but to fix our mind wholly on God whilst we are praising of him and have our hearts suitably affected with the things we pray for Whereas in Extemporary Prayer the mind of the Minister or whoever else it is that prayeth is taken up in hunting for expressions to utter his thoughts and for fear of being put to a stand he is forced to follow not the motions of the Spirit or the dictate of his understanding but the fluency of an acquired habit of Praying and by this means doth often begin where he should end and end where he should begin And those very men that speak so much against the necessary and edifying Repetitions that we use in our common-Common-prayer do very frequently in their Extemporary-prayer repeat the same things over and over again though it may be in different expressions And as for the People that hear a Minister pray an Extemporary-prayer as they do not know before-hand what he will say they must first attend to what he saith in the next place they must consider whether what he prayeth be according to the Word of God and fit for them to join with but whilst the Hearer is thus employ'd he that prays is got to another thing and leaves his Hearers behind to overtake him as they best can which according to my apprehension makes the way of praying extempore so difficult and uneasie that it is morally impossible for both Minister and People to pray so devoutly or at least so understandingly as they ought to doe If you please well to weigh and consider what I have here offered I question not but you will be convinced that a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance that it is a great furtherance to zealous praying by the Spirit whereas the Prayer you are so much taken with is indeed a great obstacle to it E. D. However Sir I suppose you will grant me that it is this tying themselves up to a Form that hath made the Ministers of the Church of England so dull and devoid of the Gift of Prayer that they cannot pray without Book and may rather be compar'd to those Dumb dogs whom the Prophet reproves than be look'd upon as Ministers of the Gospel F. P. Though I am a Stranger here yet I have very good reason to believe that I am better acquainted with the Ministers of the Church of England than you are and am better inform'd of their parts and abilities than you can be for I have made it my business to be acquainted with them not maliciously to slander and abuse them but to the end I might the better understand and value them and profit by them And if you will give me leave to speak my Judgment which is not grounded upon hear-say but upon good knowledge of and converse with them I must render them this true and unbiass'd testimony That of all the Clergy I ever was acquainted with they are the most Learned and Godly E. D. You are a French man Sir and therefore I suppose that much of this may pass for Compliment F. P. I am indeed a French-man by birth but yet I value my self upon this account that in heart and affection I am a hearty true Englishman And since you are pleas'd to look upon my judgment of the English Clergy no better than a Compliment I challenge you to tell me what Nation in the World can boast of having such great and worthy Divines as we have E. D. Pray how comes it to pass then that they cannot pray F. P. Who told you they could not Sure I am that they both can and do pray and that so excellently that as they surpass those of other Nations for Learning so likewise in Devotion and the Gift of Prayer and if you had taken time to peruse their Books of Devotion you would never have told me as you do That the prescribing of a Form of Prayer has been the occasion why the Ministers of the Church of England are become so dull and ignorant even to that excess that they cannot pray E. D. However I think they are much to blame for that in their Pulpits if they pray at all they dispatch them in so few words that any one that hears them will be apt to conclude they cannot pray but should you once come to our Meetings ay there you would hear Praying indeed F. P. I will not deny but that commonly our Clergy in the Pulpit use onely a short Prayer before Sermon but don 't at all deserve to be blam'd but rather to be commended for so doing if we consider first that our Clergy chuse to make use of a short Prayer onely before Sermon because they have found by wofull Experience that long extemporary Prayers have begot in most People a dislike of the Common-prayer and consequently have been the occasion of those unchristian Animosities Schisms and Divisions that are so rife amongst us And I think you have no just reason to blame this pre-caution of theirs till you have made out first that the People doe well to undervalue and despise the Common-prayer and that the Aversion they have for it is a sufficient ground for Schism and Division A second reason why the Ministers of the Church of England use such short Prayers is that by this means they may condescend to the weakness of the People lest an over-long Prayer should weary those who have already attended upon and join'd their hearts and voices with the publick Prayers offer'd up to God by the Church And in the third and last place we shall find that there is nothing good or usefull for us which the Minister hath not already prayed for nor any thing evil or hurtfull which he has not deprecated in the publick Prayers appointed by the Church which methinks might at least lessen the fault of our Clergy in your sight and somewhat allay the bitterness of your Censure against them And as for your Meetings where you tell me there is Praying indeed I must freely tell you that though I never was at any Meeting in my
and Hereticks and therefore as was said before it cannot be too often repeated But before we proceed further we may here take notice that upon certain Festival-days the Athanasian Creed is read instead of that of the Apostle's E. D. Is there any thing more in the Athanasian Creed than in that of the Apostle's F. P. Onely this that in the Athanasian Creed the Mysteries of the most Blessed Trinity and of the Incarnation of the Son of God are more at large asserted explained and unfolded and that in the most sound plain and perspicuous terms those sublime and incomprehensible Mysteries are capable of After which we proceed to this devout hearty and mutual Salutation of the Minister and the People the Minister saying The Lord be with you and the People answering And with thy Spirit E. D. For my part I cannot approve of the Minister and People thus saluting one another because it looks too much like Compliment which though perhaps it may agree very well with your French humour yet is not at all agreeable to mine F. P. If you 'll quarrel at this you must quarrel with the Word of God and with the language of the Holy Ghost in Scripture for most certain it is that this Salutation is taken thence viz. what the Minister saith out of the Book of Ruth 2.4 and used by St. Paul 2 Thess 3.16 and what the People answer out of the Epistle to the Galat. 6.18 Which words whether consider'd in themselves or with respect to the end they are design'd for are of exceeding great and good use for now we are entring upon a new part of Divine Service viz. that of Prayer but seeing that without God's aid and assistance it is impossible either for Minister or People to acquit themselves rightly of this duty which is of so great concern to the whole Congregation Minister as well as People wherefore they begin by praying each for other humbly supplicating God to assist them in their present undertaking the Minister beginning with this short Prayer for the People The Lord be with you lifting up your Hearts and raising your Devotions that my Prayers may not be in vain for you and the People in acknowledgment of the Minister's hearty good will and as being themselves extreamly concern'd in the work he is about answer his Prayer with this good wish And with thy Spirit to the end your Prayers may be so fervent that you and we may reap the fruit and benefit of those Petitions you are now going to offer up to God for the whole Congregation And having thus both Minister and People implored the Divine Presence and Assistance in the great Work we are entring upon we do next in a most humble and solemn manner address our selves to each Person of the most Blessed Trinity to have Mercy upon us viz. that our Sins and Transgressions may not hinder our Prayers and Petitions from being graciously received and accepted at the Throne of Grace saying Lord have mercy upon us Christ have mercy upon us Lord have mercy upon us After which we address our selves to God in that excellent Form of Prayer our Saviour hath taught us E. D. But me-thinks forasmuch as you have used this Prayer already that the reiterating of it must needs be accounted a vain repetition condemned by our Saviour in Matth. 6.6 F. P. True it is that our Church has appointed the Lord's-prayer to be used more than once in our Liturgy but that the reiterating of it cannot come under the lash of those vain repetitions forbid by our Saviour will appear if you consider that we repeat it onely in each distinct Service of the Church before we made use of it as a Confirmation and further assurance of the Absolution of our Sins and now we repeat it as the ground and foundation of our following Petitions Besides the frequent repetition of it ought not to be called vain since as hath been before observed Christ himself prayed thrice using the same words and certainly the best of Prayers cannot be used too often E. D. But I dare say if so be the Protestants in France made use of the Lord's-prayer at all yet they did not repeat it so often as you do F. P. I have taken notice before that you are very ready to entertain false Notions concerning our French Protestants and the same befalls you in this particular for certain it is that we always had so great a veneration for the Lord's-prayer that we believ'd all our Prayers whether publick or private were deficient and imperfect without it and therefore we did always both in the Church and at home conclude all our Prayers with the Lord's-prayer adding most commonly the Apostle's Creed and concluding all with the Solemn Blessing E. D. But when your Minister used it in the Church I supposâ— they did not repeat it often as yoâ— do but were content with saying of it once onely F. P. You are still mistaken foâ— our Ministers do repeat it most commonly thrice and sometimes more before they come down from thâ— Pulpit and according to the Discipline or Canons of our Church they are bound so to do E. D. This I confess seems strangâ— to me But let us proceed to what follows next and that cursorily too for I begin to be tiâ—ed with speaking so long to no purpose for I finâ— you will have always somethinâ— ready at hand to dash my Objections F. P. That I may not tire you altogether I shall dispatch what remains in as few words as possible The next part of the Liturgy that offers it self are some interlocutory Petitions taken out of Holy Scripture both Minister and People in these short and devout Ejaculations striving by turns who shall most move God favourably to incline and hearken to their Petitions and after these the whole Congregation do in a humble posture with united hearts and voices supplicate our heavenly Father for his grace and favour for his help and aid for his safeguard and protection for the acceptation of their Prayers and his Divine Blessing not onely for themselves but also for the King and Queen and Royal Family for the Church both Clergy and People and lastly for all Mankind and this in few words is the design and contents of the following Collects But I must not forget to observe to you that upon Wednesdays Friday and Sundays we reade the Litany E. D. Pray what is the use oâ— this Litany or what is it good for F. P. I must not it seems for feâ—… of trespassing upon your patience enlarge my self too much in representing to you the Excellency oâ— this Prayer and therefore shall teâ—… you as briefly as I can the substance and import of it there is â—… Vice nor Lust which therein wâ— do not pray to be deliver'd from nor any Grace or Virtue but wâ—… desire God to bestow it upon uâ—… and in a word whatsoever is fit â—… be pray'd for or deprecated in pâ—…lick