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A19857 A suruey of certaine dialogical discourses: vvritten by Iohn Deacon, and Iohn Walker, concerning the doctrine of the possession and dispossession of diuels VVherein is manifested the palpable ignorance and dangerous errors of the discoursers, and what according to proportion of God his truth, every christian is to hold in these poyntes. Published by Iohn Darrell minister of the gospell. Darrel, John, b. ca. 1562. 1602 (1602) STC 6285; ESTC S109295 85,966 179

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may we thinke the forme giuen by our ●auiour is any thing defectiue as if some part of our necessity were omitted If then praier be a meanes to defend and preserue from a●tuall possession it is also a meanes to deliuer from the ●ame if at any time we be ouertaken with it And seeing also possession is still remaining in the church as hath beene proued b● vnanswerable arguments it must needes be also the remedy of praier is stil remayning and warranted from hence Againe Math. 17.21 This k●nde goeth ●ot forth saith he but by fasting and praier To this place you answer That our Sauiour onely makes knowne the impediment in that action but puts downe no commaundement pag. 264 And here you condemne me of grosse ignorance that could not see this I contrari●ise admire your superaboundant skill that is able to make two thinges iustle out one an other without any opposition I pray your great learning teach me for of my selfe I can not conceaue How the presence of that thing should not be a meanes an helpe a furtherance the absence whereof is a let an hindrance an impediment Or how a defect can be reproued but that a supply of the same defect should withall be commaunded And how an euill can be perpetuall as I haue shewed a●tuall possession is that the remedy should not also be perpetuall considering the Lord is mor ample in mercy towards vs then in iustice Beesides if neither we are to haue an● vse of fasting and prayer in the●e a tions nor the Apostles euer vse● them in casting out diuels at least we neuer reade that they did how might the Church reape profit of this instruction Did our Sauiour giue precepts that were vaine and superfluous Or was this instru●●ion proper to that one a●tion and neuer to come in vse afterwar●s I beseech you make not dainty of your skill but lighten my ignorance in these points page 265 Moreouer whereas you require some testimony for this ordinance in Paul his epistles and for want of such doe therevpon concl●de that there is no such ordinance I answer it is not necessary we should proue this ordinance out of the epistles of S. Paul May not warrant for it out of the gospel suffice And cannons rul●s thence for our direction therein If you can proue that all the ordinances of God whatsoeuer be conteyned in Paules epistles I will eyther from thence proue this ordinance or confesse that there is no such ordinance Yet notwithstanding know ye that where the Apostle speaking of the compleat armour of Christians against the diuel requireth that we pray with all manner of prayer and supplication in the spirit Ephe. 6 18. that from thence this ordinance hath confirmation Let this then be a third place And where you adde that the Ap●stle in the epistles to Timothy and Titus handles at large all Church offices and officers I haue already shewed that expelling of diuels is no peculyar duty of any Church officer and therefore you haue no reason to looke for this precept amongst the aduertisements of their charge Againe you obiect S. Peter that laying op●n the perpetuall va●aries of Sathan to kill deuour he maketh n● mention of prayer fasting but only of a strong faith I answer The reason of this was because S. Peter was not aware of that variance betwene faith prayer which your Eagle eyes haue espyed who as it seemeth can haue a faith without prayer and prayer without faith He thought symply as he had learned that where ●e spake of faith men would also haue vnderstood all the helpes and furtherances of faith not by the name of faith destroy whatsoeuer might giue maintenance to it But because you stand so strictly vpon the word prayer take this for a fourth place Is any among you affl●cted let him pray Shall we thinke that possession is no affliction Iames 5 13 Or that in this affliction onely we are barred from praier Or if we doe pray that it shall be to no effect Now then you may see that you casting your net and for all your dragginge findinge nothing in all the canonicall scripture for this ordinance it was not for want of stoare whereof I haue giuen you but a tast that you drew vp empty to land but because you had so man● floters in the top and wanted leade to sinke it a conuenient depth VVhereas therefore you chalenge me for proofes of this institution these places may suffice for authority of scriptures And might not those testimonies of antiquity and of present pra●tise with the godly now a●aies content you which I haue alleadged in the Doctrin but that you must blazon me for a Braver in wordes page 265 which neither had brought any thing to purpose nor possibly coulde bring Say you● w● wonder y●u blush not to braue out the matter by pretending the authority of Scriptures the testimony of fathers olde and n●w the practise of the church and the good successe thereof to mannage the matter it s●lfe I beesech thee good Reader let me by thy patiēce remember some part of that already set downe in the Doctrine page 55. whereby thou maist better behould these mens vnhonest dealings and whether I meerely pretend these things as they tell thee First therefore I haue cited Origen speaking to this effect Orig. in mat 17 21. Tertul. in apolog ad Scapul cap 3. Cyp●ian ad Demetri Chrysost tom 50. de incompre Dei natura homil 3. If at any time wee shall deale about the curing of the p●ss●ssed we continuing in prayer fasting may obteyne helpe from God for them shall driue forth the wicked spirit by fasting and prayer Next Tertullian who saith We expell diuels out of men as is knowne to many Then Cyprian saying diuels are b● vs cast out of bodies possessed Fourthly Chrisostome out of whose testimony there cited at large these wordes be part So the fathers haue appointed that men vex●d by the diuel shoulde be brought forth that the people and all the citty being present publique prayers might be made for them that all with one accord might intreat the Lord in their behalf and might striu● with strong crye that the Lord would haue mercy vpon th●m c Fiftly Peter Martyr concerning men possessed vsing these wordes We wil vse for them faithfull prayer● I say Peter Matter p●●t 4 cap. 9 sect 13. chemnis de sacra ordini● prayers most vehement supplications for th●ir recouery In a w rd this should be the m st laud●ble wise course that exorcismes at this day be turned into prayers Sixtly Chemnisius who saith That in the tim● of Chrisostome and Prosper the possessed were brought into the Church and were oft deliuered by the common supplications of the assembly Seauenthly Philip Melancthon making mention of diuers which were possessed and namely of a damsel in Mantua Phil. Melanct lib. epistol that had
heathen To omit auncient examples least perhapps you say they be past date the like being ceased in our times as you doe say of possession the apparition neere Augusta about the yeare 1503. vnder Maximilius the first Emperor is famous which carried the resemblance of Margarite a Roth Abbatesse of Etestetten Tho. Erastus de Lami●s pag. 17. could not only be seene and handled but also speake most significantly George Sabin a man honored for his learning with the dignity of knighthood by Charles the 5. and sonne in law to Phil. Melancthon Sabin Elg 1. Eleg. 3 Eleg. lib 4 Eleg. 4 writeth of three apparitions in his time one of sixe spirits in the forme of moncks ferried ouer the Rhene by a fisherman of Spire The second of a whole charriot full of monks the third of a maid wooed by a spirit in the similitude of a man And it is knowne what of late hath happened at Bertin and other places of Saxony At Spandaw in Germany in the yeare 1594. Sep. 13. the diuel appeared in the shape of a man Gallob●lg lib. 11 to a yong youth Gabriell Crūmer offering him great ritches if he would promise to be at his pleasure this not once but the second time To him also appeared Gabriel a spirit in shew of a good angel foure seuerall times In the sāe towne the diuel did walke visibly in the view of diuers It were end lesse to insist vpon rehersall of the manifould examples of this kīde Yea something to this purpose may be sayd out of holy Scripture Chrysostome writing vpon the patience of Iob saith that he which brought tidings of the house destruction of his famely cattle was not a man but a spirit For if thou wert a man saith he how didst thou know that this winde came from the wildernesse or if thou wert there how hapneth it that thou wast not destroyed with the rest Some thinge also it maketh as I thinke for confirmation hereof that foure seuerall messengers vse not only the same speach but the verie same wordes I onely am escaped to tell thee Also that they come so patt one after the other before the former had ended his speach Iob. 1. v 15 16.17.19 that one of them saith The fire of god is fallen from heauen and hath burnt vp c. Piscator saith in Math. 4 3. that when the diuel came to Christ in the wildernesse to tempt him he came in specie viri c. in the shape of a man as angels are wont to doe when they appeare vnto men And this we shall the rather beleeue if we remember that the diuel is said to come vnto Christ to haue speach with Christ that the tempted him in communication Hither also apperteineth 1 Sam. 28 7 8 that witches are said to haue their familiar spirits Except the diuels did put vpon them bodies and in them were familiarly conuersant with these wicked weomen how could there be any familiarity betwene a diuel a woman Did not also the angels thus as oft as they did familiarly conuerse with men Besides who knoweth not this to be verrified in daily experience de operibus red part 1 lib. 4 cap. 16 Zanchius hauing affirmed that in his iudgment diuels can assume bodies and in them appeare speake c. vseth these words More ouer there be very many those verie graue writers who affirme that this hath fallen out often Augustine writeth so of this matter that he saith it is impudēcie to denie it And a little after Zanchius saith asmuch himselfe Without the note of impudencie this cannot be denied And who is there liuing that doubteth of the diuels appearing to some heere and there in visible formes and shapes at this day Or that witches and diuels in bodyes assumed haue familiar speach communication togither Doe we not daily heare of such occurrents Doe not witches in all countries make thus much knowne by their confessions with many circumstances therevnto apperteyninge which all tend to the confirmation hereof Verily the diuel his assuming of bodies and appearing in them vnto men is so manifest by experience in all ages past and present that we may wel say with Augustine and Zanchius It is impudencie to deny it Thus impudent are none but those who either deny that there are diue●s or witches The lesser of which is horrible impiety This then is an other vntruth And heere by the way we may assure our selues that the Discoursers deny this latter and are of opinion there a●e no witches n r any bewitched For if diuels cann●t assu● bodies with●ut which they cannot appeare nor haue any familiarity with men if ●econdly Sathan haue no power to to●ment vex or any way t● afflict t●e b●d● of man as these men also tell vs in affirming that there is no a●tuall possessiō in these daies of the gospell how are there any who haue familyar spirits whome the scripture calleth witches Or that be afflicted in their bodies by the ministery of Sathan mallice of a witch which is that we call bewitching This is something confirmed by their oft quoting of M. Sk●t his Discou●ry of witchcraft and their commending of that his exposition of 1. Sam. 28.8 c. Hereby it is manifest that togither with M. Sk●t they hold that there are no witches nor any at this day bewitched They doe not indede deliuer this in plaine tearmes least happely they should thereby irritate the reuerend Iudges of the land by making them guilty of shedding much innocent bloud but you see that from some of their publike assertions it is to be gathered by necessary colle●tion and how they approue of that booke which denyeth witches witchraft yea doe commend it saying that if without preiudice and with a single respect to the truth we would but d●liberately ●●ruse that priuiledged discourse c. then should we without doubt see a diabolicall discourse published with priuiledge Lastly you say that the aforesaid argument is a deceiuable Elēch from may be to being indeede I pray you Discours●rs is not the question of may be Is not your position in the begīning of this dialogue whether spirits diuels can assume c. We vse then no El●n●h in the matter but you a meere dotage which like the butcher haue forgotten the knife in your mouth Besides this such like argumēts be rather ab posse ad posse then a posse ad ●ss● as a childe that hath learned but Sum P ssum may helped a little be able to tell you page 107. PsAl 78 49. The second reason for assuming of b●dies are the words of the psalme He cast vpon them the feircenesse of his anger indignation and wrath by sending angels of euil Heere you afford a double answer First that Angels of euil be angels that were denouncers of euil that is Moses Aaron as Trem●lius interprets it with whom you accord Secondly that