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A47813 The casuist uncas'd, in a dialogue betwixt Richard and Baxter, with a moderator between them, for quietnesse sake by Roger L'Estrange. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1680 (1680) Wing L1209; ESTC R233643 73,385 86

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Disobedience to their Guides and of Schism and doing much more to the hurt of the Church a very great Sin Peter Lot and 't is like David did oft commit greater Sins R. B's Five Disdutes of Right to Sacraments P. 329. But a man must be guilty of more sins then Peter was in denying and forswearing Christ that is notoriously ungodly yea then Lot was who was drunk two nights together and committed Incest twice with his own Daughters and that after the miraculous destruction of Sodom of his own wife and his own miraculous Deliverance Nay a man that is notoriously ungodly in the sense in hand or Unsanctify'd must be a greater sinner then Solomon was with his Seven hundred Wives three hundred Concubines and gross● Idolatries P. 326.327 Mo. And are These the Saints Gentlemen that you are afraid should be cast out for Schismatiques They must be of your own Canonizing then for I assure you I finde no such Saints in our Kalendar But let me hear I beseech you whom we are to keep out and whom to take in Ri. We must either Tolerate All men to do what they will which they will make a matter of Conscience or Religion and then some may offer their Children in sacrifice to the Devil and some may think they do God service in killing his Servants c. Or else you must Tolerate no Errour or fault in Religion and then you must advise what measure of Penalty you will Inflict Church-Divis P. 363 364. Mo The two great Difficulties will be to say what Errours are Tolerable and what not and then to bring the Magistrate and the People to an Agreement upon the matter Ri If no Errour were to be a Tolerated no men were to be Tolerated and the Wisest in the World must be numbred with the Intolerable as well as the rest Church Divis. P. 348. Ba. But some People make those things to be Duties which are no Duties and Sins which are no Sins calling Evil Good and Good Evil and having made a Religion of their own confidently think that it is of God valuing all men that they have to do with according as they are nearer or further off from This which they account the way of God chusing a Church or Party to joyn with by the Test of This Religion which their Pride has C●osen Church Divis. P. 11. Thus they divide the Kingdom and Family of Christ destroying first the Love of Brethren and Neighbours in themselves and then labouring to destroy it in all Others by speaking against those that are not in their own way with Contempt and Obloquy to represent them as an Unlovely sort of Men and if the Interest of their Cause and Party require it perhaps they will next destroy their Persons And yet all this is done in zeal of God and as an Acceptable service to him Ibid. P. 12. And they think it a resisting of the Spirit to resist their Judgment P. 13. I have known too many very honest-hearted Christians especially Melancholique Persons and Women who have been in great doubt about the Opinions of the Millenaries the Separatists the Anabaptists the Seekers and such like and after earnest Prayer to God they have been strongly resolved for the way of Errour and Confident by the strong Impression that it was the Spirits Answer to their Prayers and thereupon they have set themselves into a Course of Sin Ibid. P. 162. And In truth it is very Ordinary with poor phancyfull Women and Melancholy Persons to take all their deep Apprehensions for Revelations Ibid. P. 167. Mo. Well but these people all this while take themselves to be in the right Ba. But as for that which is Contrary to Scripture I am sure it is contrary to the Will of God Church Divis. P. 166. Mo. Out of all doubt but what if They expound the Scripture One way and You Another Ba. Why if they believe That themselves which they can give you no reason to believe they must be content to keep their belief to themselves and not for shame perswade any other to it without proof If they say that God hath revealed it to them tell them that he hath not revealed it to You and therefore That 's nothing to You till they prove their Divine Revelation If God reveal it to them but for themselves they must keep it to themselves Ibid. P. 166. If they say that the spirit hath told Them the meaning of the Scripture say as before that it is not told to you which is not proved to you Ibid 167. But if we do through weaknesse or perversnesse take lawful things to be unlawfull That will not excuse Us in our disobedience Our Errour is our Sin and one Sin will not excuse another R. B's Five Disput. P. 483. He that mistakingly thinks any thing is good or bad Duty or Sin which is not so will be zealous in persute of his Mistake if he be serious for God Cath. Theol. Pref. It is an Ill sign when your zeal is beyond the proportion of your Understanding And your Prudence and Experience is much lesse then other mens as your zeal is greater Church Divis. P. 123. Beside that the more weak and worthlesse and Erroneous any ones Judgment is usually the more furious are they in the prosecution of it as if all were most certain Truth which they apprehend These are the boldest both in Schisms and persecutions Ibid. 357. Mo. But you will say that in cases where the common people may be imposed upon by Cred●lity Phancy or Weaknesse they may repair to their Teachers to set them right Ba. Even the most of Teachers take abundance of things for true and good that are false and evill and for false and bad which are true and good Much more are godly vulgar people Ignorant and consequently erre in many things Cath. Theol. Pref. And I my self was mistaken in my Aphorisms of Iustification and the Cov●nants as I have acknowledged in the same Preface Mo. You have had very ill luck Sir with your Aphorisms Ri. I must confess that when God had first brought me from among the more Ignorant sort of people and when I heard Religious Persons pray without Form and Speak affectionately and seriously of Spiritual and Heavenly things I thought verily that they were all undoubted Saints till e're long of those whom I so m●ch honoured one fell of to Sensuality and to Persecuting Formality and another fell to the foulest Heresy and another to disturb the Churches Peace by Turbulent Animositys and Divisions Church Divil P. 23.24 c. Ri. I thought once that all the talk against Schisme and Sects did but vent their Malice against the best Christians u●der those Names But since Then I have seen what Love-killing-Principles have done I have long stood by while Churches have been divided and Subdivided one Congregation of
Uniformi●y made Episcopacy and Common-p●ayer unlawf●ll 'T is the Law that Silences an● not the Bishops Non-Conformists silence themselves Berter particulars suffer then 〈◊〉 Order o●●●vernment be dissolved Richard ag●ees with Dr Reynolds 〈◊〉 conform'd Richard pleads altogether for Love Ba●ters way of e●pressing ●ichard against rash ●●nsuring 〈…〉 Baxter ag●inst Rich●rd Mr Ba●ters Cha●ity to the Clergy and discip●ine of ●he Chu●ch His brotherly Love Church ann State arraign d. Richard and Baxter of two quite different spirits The persecuted are the perssecutors Be sure first of what spirit ●he Non-Confo●mists are The spirit of the Non-Conformists His Late Majesties Judgement Experience upon it The spirit that Richard pl●ads ●or Richards ●oleration Who are the Judges the Government or the People Modest Dissenters deserve pity The Dispute is not Scruple but Power Plain dealing Richard puts the Case of a Saint and a Schismatick Baxters Saints Baxter sully resolved to go to them that dy'd in Rebellion He joys to think what Company he shall have Baxter says that Professors will rail and lye c. But that neither Perjury drunkennesse Incest Concubines nor Idols can make them dotoriously ungodly The Saints that are cast out for hereticks Either Tolerate All or None but upon a Penalty No men must be Tolerated if no Errour Baxter shews the Inconveniences of Toleration Pride makes one mans Religion Faction anothe●s Which ends in bloud And yet pass●● for doing God good service And the motion of the spirit Enthusiastick zea● Dotage●●a●en fo● Re●elations Scripture the Ru●e But who must expound it One mans Faith must not Impose upon anot●ers Mistake will not justifie the Errour nor ex●use a Disobedience Men will be zealous even in Errour More zeal then understanding is not good None so fierce and bold as ●he Ignorant Even Teachers themselves are false Guides M● Baxter himself has been mistaken Ill luck with his Aphorisms How Richard was wheedled in i. e. he was reconci ' d to the Church Richards best Christians found to ●e Schismaticks Great m●n misled and why not 〈…〉 Believe not every spirit T●e Dissenters Cause is still Gods cause Their false Prophets T●e Kings death directed by a Revelation Sedgwicks day of Judgment Vavas●r Powe●s Prophecy of no more Kings or Taxe● Rather the Law of the Land then the Humour of the people A Fear of sinning ought to be cherished even in a mistake Dangerous trusting to scruples Who would have thought it Th● Episcopal Clergy Simeon and Levi. O the force of a misguided Con●cience The very Case of the seduced mu●●i●ude The Name of Libe●ty does mo●e ●●en ●he conside●atio● 〈◊〉 Heaven it self Baxt●r against Liberty And Toleration Liberty the way to set up Popery Mr. Richard an Improper Advocate for Toleration Richard is a Conformist Mr. Baxters Sermon that brought the King in Presbytery for the Lords sake Oh the happy times when Presbyterians rul'd Have a care of scandalous Inventions The Ignorant Church-Tyrants Richard not absolutely against the Cross. ●axters a Loyallist Errour is no e●cuse for disobedience The Pre●eoce of Natu●e and true Reason avoids ●ll Law A Popu●ar Fallacy The Presby●eri●n way of b●in●ing in ●he King Richards challenge In justification o● the Non-Conformis●s The Non-Conformists charge A Presbyterian defin'd Presbyterians swallow ap all othe● Sect● at ●irst and t●en sp●w the● up ag●in Richard say● that the Episc●pal m●n b●gan ●he war T●e two Hous●s Lord ●ieu●e●●n●s O●●ic●r Civil and Mi●i●●●y Assemb●y 〈◊〉 Divine● a●m●st all Episcop●l m●n The Kings ●●gag'd Enem●●●●ere all 〈◊〉 〈…〉 The Parliament b●ought in the Scots Few worthier Assemblies since the Apostles days Their good na●u●e toward the Independents The Guild-Hall ha●●ngue● 〈◊〉 brought in the Scots His Majesties Proclamation against the Assembly of Divines Jun 22. 1643. Painful Able Laborious Ministers The Loyall Presbyterians The 〈…〉 Kings Proclamation A Dutiful Proposition The Worthy 〈◊〉 The 〈…〉 An Abuse put upon the Nation An Extract of Par●iament Proceedings 1643. The Assembly stir up the people to rise Prov'd to he a Presbyterian War Richard says the War began about Religion Baxter says it began about matter of Law Richard says 't was about the Militia Baxter says the War was made for Reformation A lewd scandal upon the late Kings Government R●c●ard will not allow of war ●ot Religion Baxter i● for a Re●igious Wer. They are fools that think ●ther 〈◊〉 In ca●● o● p●r●secuti●● we figh●●or our own and our pos●eri●●●●●al●ation The late Kings s●ffe●ings forgot en among g●eater 〈…〉 Pryn Burton and Bastwick lamented but not a word ●f the Royal Mar●yr Presbytery not setled say● Rich●rd Baxter contradicts hi● And co●fo●●s himsel● with comparing 〈◊〉 day of Richard P●otector wi●h Charle ● Ten 〈◊〉 Hypocrites Now 〈◊〉 One 〈◊〉 Baxters Comp●e●en● to the Sons of the 〈◊〉 1659 Richard Cromwells fait●full Subiects Mr. Baxters Political Aphorismes composed expresly to keep out the King Poor R●chard like 〈…〉 and pr●ying again●t the Scots The spirit of Malignity has taken 〈◊〉 the Army The Presbyterians Per●ecuted The Presbyterians Journey-men the Army se● up for themselves Somewhat of an accomoda-Generosi●y in the Independents The poor Presbyterians persecuted by the Army for not joyning against the Scots Oh the persecution o● forcing men against their Conscien●es But so long as ●hey do not suffer as evil-doers No persecution to oppresse the Church and all that love it Mr. Baxt●r places the Crown upon the wrong Head The King destroy'd by Presbyterians as Presbyterians The Loyalty of ●axters Orthodox sober Ministers Richard subject to the Higher power but not resolv'd which it is An Even score of Orthodox sober Divines The last Kings bloud not valu'd at a Ceremony ☞ The Kings Murther justify'd the day after it was committed All Christian Kings Anti-Christianiz'd ☜ A Reflection upon ●is Majes●y a●●er his De●e●t at Wo●cester Prelacy Anti-Christian A Pedant triumphing over Charles the II. and Monarchy it self And calling the King Tyrant Are These Fit Agents for Unity and Peace Richard True to the King but he mistook the King Baxters Re●stauration Sermon Asserts the Presbyterian Loyalty Makes the King a Subject and worse Pleads for Presbytery without a word of restoring the King The War rais●d for King and Par●ia●ent Their Oaths Covenants were fast and loose at pleasure The pretext of the War Religion the Cause Ambition The Loyal Presbyte●ians usurp Sovereign Power The Two Houses were the King in the Covenant No Reconciling of the Covenant King the Legal Richard holds Oaths to Princes to be Dispensable Baxter holds Oaths of Allegiance to be Indispensable Richard will hate the Covenant binding as it is a Vow The League and Covenant and Vow and Covenant The League and Covenant Impos d. Baxter is his own on●essor ●nd bsolves himse●f The Covenan● for the King qualify'd for Re●igion If the King be against Religion the Covenant is against him Richard lays the Death of the King to Oliver The Baxterians attack'd the King And they fough● to kill
the Division labouring to make the other Contemptible and odious and This called the Teaching of Truth and the purer Worshiping of God Church-Divisions Pref. Ba. When so great a man as Tertullian was deceived by Montanus and his Prophetesse When such a one as Hacket could deceive not only Coppinger and Arthington but abundance more when David George in Holland Iohn of Leiden in Munster c. could deceive so many persons as they did when the pretended Revelations of the Ranters First and the Quakers After could so marvellously transport many Thousands of professors of Religion in this Land I think we have fair warning to take the Counsell of St. Iohn Believe not every Spirit but try the Spirit whether they be of God Church Divis. P. 164. Alas how common was this in the Army to set up and Pull down do an undo own and disown as by the Spirit of God! There was Mr. Erbery Mr. Saltmarsh Mr. Dell Mr. William Sedgwick who as from God wrote one week to the Army against their putting the King to Death and the next week wrote to them quite on the other side and that set London by a Prophecy or Vision on looking for the day of Judgement on a set day Second Admon to Bagshaw P. 68. Vavasor Powell at Clifton upon Thame in Worcestershire quickly after Worcester Fight said in his Sermon that he would tell them these things as from God that they should have no more Kings nor any more Taxes nor pay any more Tithes Ibid. P. 69. Mo. Pray'e do but consider now if your particular Pastors disagree among themselves if you your self Mr. Baxter have been mistaken in your Judgement as well of Truth in Notion as of Persons If those that you took for Saints proved Schismaticks and Persecutors those that you took for Conscientious Professors are we not much better in the hand of a known and Impartiall Law that cannot deceive us then at the Mercy of a wilde Multitude Unknown and Prepossess'd who in all probability will impose upon us Ri. A Fear of sinning is necessary in all that will be Obedient to God and will be saved It is that Fear of God which is the beginning of Wisdom It is therefore to be loved and cherished even when Scrupulousness mistaketh the matter Non-Con Plea 2d Part. P. 163. Ba. There 's no trusting to Scruples I have known some that have liv'd long in douhts and fears of Damnation who have turn'd Anabaptists and sodainly had Comfort and yet in a short time they forsook that Sect and turn'd to another I have known those also that have liv'd many years in timorous Complaints and fears of Hell and they have turned to the Antinomians and sodainly been comforted and others have turned Arminians which is clear contrary and been comforted and others have but heard of that Doctrine of Perfection in this Life and sodainly been past their fears as if hearing of Perfection had made them perfect And from thence they have turned Familists and at last shew'd their Perfection by Fornication and Licentiousnesse and mere Apostacy who yet liv'd very conscientiously and blamelessely as long as they liv'd in their Fears and Troubles P. 170. Chu●ch Divis. Could I have believed him that would have told me five years ago This bearing date Ian. 15. 1649. that when the * Scorners of Godlinesse were subdu'd and the bitter persecutors of the Church overthrown that such should succeed them who suffered with us who were our Intimate Friends with whom we took sweet Counsel and went up together to the House of God Did I think it had been in the hearts of men professing such zeal to Religion and the ways of Christ to draw their Swords against each other and to seek each others Bloud so fiercely Alas if the Judgment be once perverted and Errour hath perverted the Supreme Faculty whether will men go and what will they do O what a potent Instrumen● for Satan is a misguid●d Conscience It will make a man kill his dearest Friend yea Father or Mother yea the Holyest Saint and think he doth God good service by it And to facilitate the work it will first blot out the Reputation of their Holinesse and make them take a Saint for a Devil Saints Rest. P. 133. Whence can it be but for want of self-denyall that Magistrates pro●●ssing a zeal for Holynesse r●gard no more the Interest of Christ but that the Name and but the Name of Liberty a Liberty that hath neither Moral Good or Evill in it is set in the ballance against the things of everlasting Consequence and thought sufficient to over weigh th●m And that the meer pretense of this Indifferent Carnal Liberty is thought an Argument of sufficient weight for the Introduction of a wicked Damning Liberty even a liberty to deceive and destroy as many as they can and to hinder those that desire mens Salvation R. B's Self-denyal Epist. Monitory Shall every man have leave to do evill that can be Ignorant enough to think or say he thinks that he doth well And must Magistrates rule as men that are Uncertain whether there be a Christ or a Church or Heaven or Hell because some are found in their Dominions so foolish or Impious as to be Uncertain of it Ibid. Will mercyfull Rulers set up a trade for butchering of Souls and allow men to set up a shop of poyson for all men to buy and take that will yea to proclaim this poyson for Souls in Streets and Church Assemblies c. I●i● But the same Argument that tempts the sensuall to Hell doth tempt such Magistrates to set up Liberty for drawing men to Hell Ibid. Is Faith and Holynesse propagated by Perswasion and not by Force Surely then Infidelity Popery and Ungodlynesse ar● Propagated by Perswasion too Again I tell yo● self-love doth make such Rulers wiser then to grant Commission at liberty to all that will to tice the Souldiers to Mutinies and Rebellion c. Ibid. Liberty in all mat ers of Worship and of Faith is the open and apparent way to set up Popery in the Land N●●-Con Plea Pref. M● Well Mr. Richard After this frank and sensible D●claration of your self upon this Chapter do but teach me which way in the world to reconcile your Practice and your Conscience for you are a Person certainly of all men Living the most Improper Advocate for a Toleration and the most unfit Sollicitor of a Popular Petition First as your Iudgement lie● directly against the thing you pleade for Secondly as you are conscious of the danger as well as the Injusti●● of such a License Thirdly you have been a very u●happy Instrument already betwixt his Majesty and his Subjects And Lastly In demanding That over again from This King by which his Father was destroy'd you make your self suspected to have some Ill Designe For to Triumph and Rejoyce as you do after the
Concerning the opposing of Magistrates by Private persons and the Murthering of Kings by any though under the most specious and Colourable Pretenses Pa. 11. This is All which upon that desperate Crisis of State was said for that Pious and unfortunate Prince the saving of the King being if any Incomparably the least part of the Ministers business Beside that the dethroning of him was more Criminal then the beheading of him And in such a case it would have been no longer a Murther when they should once have voted the Fact to be an Execution of Justice We desire Say they that you would not be too Confident on former successes If God have made you prosper while you were in his way this can be no Warrant for you to walk in ways of your Own P. 12. So that the Old Cause is Gods still to this very day And besides you have e●gaged your selves by an Oath to preserve his Majestys Person and the Priviledges of Parliament and This is most clear that no Necessity can justify Perjury or dispense with Lawfull Oaths Pa. 15. I should be glad to know now how you came to be absolv'd of the Oath of Allegiance or how you can honestly pretend to Stand up for any Interest that renders the King Accountable to his Subjects Ba. Yet if I had taken up Arms against the Parliament in That War my Conscience tells me I had been a Traytor and Guilty of Resisting the Highest Powers Holy Com. Pa. 433. Mo. At This Rate the King was a Traytor on the other side Ba. Why do you cite the Holy Common Wealth so often for I have desired that the Book be taken as non Scriptus Non-Con ●lea 2 d part Pref. Mo. And would not any Malefactor that were deprehended in the manner say as much as this amounts to and wish that the thing might be taken as Non Factum This is rather a Shift then a Retractation And then again it is a wonderfull thing that you should overshoot your self so much upon a Subject that was expresly Suited to the demands and doubts of Th●se Tim●s Holy Com. Pa. 102. That is to say The Restoring of the King was the point then in Agitation and out comes your Book of Aphoris●s expresly to possesse the People against it Ba. If you would have a Recantation more in Form I do here freely Profess that I repent of all that ●●er I thoug●t Sayd Wrote or did since I was Born against the ●●ace of Church or State Against the King his Person or ●●thority as S●preme in himself or as D●●●vative in any of his Officers M●gistrats or any Commissioned by him 2 d Admonition to Bagshaw Pa. 52. Mo. This Mock Repentance is a Trick that will not pass either upon God or Man The Kings Headsman might have Sayd as much and yet account that execrable Office a meritorious work You are at your Fast Sermon again Always Obedient to the Highest Powers but divided somewhere about the Receptacle of the Sovereignty You ask God forgivenesse for all that ever you Thought Sayd Wrote or Did against the King and the Publick-Peace And what signifies This Repentance so long as you persist in maintaining that all the violences acted upon the Person Crown and Dignity of his Sacred Majesty in the Name of the King and Parliament were not AGAINST the King but FOR him This is All but the Hypothesis of a Transgression Lord forgive me all that ever I did amiss That is to say if ever I did any thing amiss But I charge my self with no Particulars Why do ye not Touch the Thesis that you condemn and say This That and tother Aphorisme I Renounce Nay why do ye not Reform and Correct your mistakes and state the matter aright toward the bringing of These people into their Wits again that have been Intoxicated by your false Doctrine and Poyson'd from your very Pulpit Ba. If you Quarrell with my Repentance as not In Particulars enow I answer you that as in the Revocation of the Book I thought it best to Revoke the whole though not as Retracting all the Doctrine of it because if I had named the Particular Passages some would have said I had mentioned too Few and some too many and few would have been satisfi'd Admon to Bagshaw Pag. 53. Mo. You have Mark'd Revoke and Retract with an Emphatical Character to give to Understand that you do not Retract though you do Revoke and you have put them in Italique to shew that there lies a stresse upon Those two Words You Revoke the whole Book you say not as Retracting all the Doctrine of it If by Revoke you mean Call in or Suppr●ss you might as well call back your Breath again as the venome that was diffused by those Aphorisms And then to say that you do not Retract All the Doctrine of it does not necessarily Imply that you Retract any part of it Or if you do your Repentance is yet Frivolous for want of distinguishing the Right from the Wrong that your Disciples may not take the One from the Other Your Apprehension indeed of saying too much or too little if you should come to Particulars is very Reasonable For to please the Lovers to their Prince Church and Countrey you must not leave one Seditious or Schismatical Principle behind ye But then on the other side if you come to pronounce the Levying of Arms the making of a Great Seal and Exercising other Acts of Sovereignty without and against the Kings Commission to be High Treason by the Established Law you are lost to all Intents and Purposes with your own Party So that for fear of disobliging the One side or the Other by Confessing too much or too little you have resolved upon the middle way of confessing just nothing at all Ba. I do Repent again that I no more discouraged the spirit of p●evish Quarrelling with Superiours and Church-Orders and though I ever disliked and opposed it yet that I som●times did too much Encourage such as were of this Temper by speaking too sharply against Those things which I thought to be Church-Corruptions and was too loth to displease the Contentious for fear of being Uncapable of doing them good knowing the Prophane to be much worse then They and meeting with too few Religious persons that were not too much pleased with such Invectives Ibid. Mo. This Clause of Repentance is every jot as much a Riddle to me as the former You did not sufficiently discourage the spirit of Quarrelling with Superiours Which spirit you your self Raised You were a little too sharp upon what you thought to be Church-Corruptions So that here 's a Bit and a Knock You were a little too sharp but it was against Corrup●ions in the Church Your very Repentances are Calumnies But you were willing to oblige a Contentious Religious Party that was pleased with Invectives you could have done