therfore complained of all yt was but an error But wheras Gods word is imbraced and multitudes abhorr idolatrie and labour with sorowfull teares to be purged from their sinnes it is intollerable pride presumption of men to set themselues in Gods iudgment seate and to condempne all of wilfulnes and obstiâ—acie Let it be shewed that anie led by Gods Spirit haue dealt in this sort and especially in chardging them whom they condempne most falslie as shall appeare HERE you verie vehemently chardge vs with intollerable pride presumption intrusion into Gods iudgment seate to be voide of Gods Spirit to chardge and condempne you most falslie as you say shall appeare How iustly you chardge vs with these crimes and dischardge your self and these assemblies of these present transgressions vpon the scanne of your answere shall appeare In the meane time the holy Ghost sheweth vs what spirit you are led by at the writing therof and hath foretold how vvell you shall endure and reforme at the manifestation of your sinnes and at the powring out of the cuppe of the Lords indignation where he saith They shall drinke and be moued and be madd because of the sword that shaâ—l come vpon them And in another place And the fift Angel powred forth his viall vpon the Throne of the Beast and his kingdome waxed darke and they gnawed their tongues for sorowe and blasphemed the God of heauen for their paines and their sores but repented them not of their workes It suffised you not to cauill and spurne against the manifest truth of our former Articles but you must in this not only leaue out our words at your pleasure but abuse them that remaine after your owne lust Our Article speaketh of the assemblies as they generally stand in England You retort our words to Gods secret election which we acknowledg and daily see and praise Gods name for it Yet no multitudes but a litle poore remnant as the beries of a beaten Oliue tree the grapes after the grape-gathering one of a Citie two of a Tribe in respect And it is to be doubted those multitudes you speake of will shrink when they come to his assâ—ye whose furnace is in Sion and fire in Hierusalem But if it should be so as you say the heauie wrath of God haÌ„geth ouer your heades that haue a people so redie and fit for the kingdome of CHRIST and suffer them to continue in this confusion false worship antichristian bondage euen the snare of the Deuil and not only not leade them out of it but not suffer theÌ„ that would to depart and thus slay them that should not dye Yea you smite the PhisitiaÌ„ that seeketh to heale you and are enimies to them that shew you your traÌ„sgressioÌ„s iudging them voide of the spirit of God But if you had but considered that Prophets zeale as you remembred his error you should haue found him zealous â—eruent against Baalls Priests in Gods quarrell It were long to recite the number of Gods faithfull seruaÌ„ts which are euerie where coÌ„mended in the scriptures for their zeale diligeÌ„ce herein Or againe the Lords iudgments not onlie vpon perticular men but whole Contries nations for the contempt neglect therof So then if it fall out that the lawe and word of God condempne you of these transgressions what are we that we should iustifie you in your iniquities nay rather proude hawtie and scornfull is his name that worketh in his arrogancie wrath c. To blazon your transgressions as they deserue requireth rather a quire then a shead of paper And to say the truth it is an yrksomnes vnto anie godly conscience either to heare or recite them Yet because ther is no cause so bad which shal not finde as bad a patrone we will only examine your answeres and brieflie shew their insufficiencie THE first fault is That we worship the Lord after a false maner because our worship is said to be made of the invention of man yea of the man of sinne erronious imposed vpon vs. I answere that our worship is the imbracing of the holy Bible by the doctrine therof we seeke to belieue in God to call vpon him and to doo all good workes Manie Ministers ther be in England which haue not approued the booke of common praier further then they are perswaded it is consonant to Gods word hor vsed anie thing therin which they iudge corrupt But you say all read prayer is idolatrie But you must bring better stuffe to proue yt then your spirituall fantasies so directly ouerthrowne by the holy scriptures howsoeuer they may be cauilled against with fond distinctions as the hereticks haue done in other matters THE first Transgression we chardge your assemblies with is That you worship God after a false maner your worship being made of the invention of man euen of the man of sinne erronious and imposed vppon you You answere your worship is the imbracing the holy Bible Thus begging the question you neither proue your worship by the Bible nor answere one of these 4 apparant reasons which we bring in our Articles whie yt is false contrarie to the Bible For the furder manifestation of your worship in perticular let that great Idoll the booke of your coÌ„mon prayer which is so full of errors blasphemies and abhominations be examined by the word of God See if you can finde in the new Testament your Romish Fastes your Ember dayes Sainctes Eaues Lent or your Idoll Feastes your Alhallowes Candlemasse your seuerall Lady dayes Saincts dayes the dedicating of your Churches to Saincts your Comminations Rogations Purifications Titheâ— Offrings Mortuaries your maner of visiting the sick housling them with the Sacrament your Absolution your blasphemous Diriges and funerall sermons ouer and for the dead your corrupt maner of administring the Sacraments your Font crossing in baptisme your Baptising by women Gossippings the blasphemous Collects you vse in this Sacrament your Bishoppings with all your hereticall Collects in that Booke which is a wearines to vs to repeate though not in you to vse tollerate and defend But all this geare must be swallowed vp This candle may not be lighted lest the people looke into the abhominable ingredients which you their antichristian Ministers giue them or rather sell them in the whore of Babilons Cupp to the destruction of their soules But you know some Ministers in the land which neither vse nor approue the Booke further then they are perswaded in conscience it is consonaut to Gods word But you know none that vse not the Booke You know neuer a Minister in this land which either is authorized by the state or standeth in puplique place which standeth nor vnder this Idoll or that hath throwne yt out by the power of the word or withdrawne the people from yt with al their preaching these 29 yeares but ioyne their Gospel to yt minister to that people that vse yt c. Neither can the conningest
nations that were gathered togither by the false Prophet into battell against Christ his armie how he should smite the heatheÌ„ with the sharpe sword that issueth out of his mouth rule them with a rod of yron and tread theÌ„ in the wine-presse of his fierce wrath how he should giue the flesh of all this people with their Kinges Capitanes and mightie men as a praye to the fowles the vncleane spirites and how he should take the Beast and with him the false Prophet that wrought signes before him wherein he deceiued them that receiued the Beastes marck and worshipped his Image and cast these both aliue into that lake of fire burning in brimstone Who now if not such to whome the scriptures are hidden and this Booke sealed could in this generall falling away from the gospel this generall departure of the true established Churches out of the inhabited this vniuersall corruption confusion of all estates degrees persons callings actions both in the Church commune welth in this estate in this defection seeke for or pleade for a true visible established Church the true ministerie of the gospel true worship ministration sacraments gouernment order Or who that were not droncke and had all their senses bound intoxicate with the whores cuppe could affirme this coÌ„fuse Babel these cages of vncleane birdes these prisons of foule hatefull spirits to be the Spouse of Christ the coÌ„gregatioÌ„s of the Sainctes the true established and rightly ordered Churches of Christ Is it likely that these men haue as yet read the whores misterie written in her forehead or as yet know what belongeth to the true established Church worship administration sacraments ordinances gouernment of Christ though they haue in his Testament which is dayly read amongest them an exact absolute parterne of al these things before their eies And haue not in their Churches anie one thing in their practise and proceedings not one pinne naile or hooke according to the true patterne Yea though they heare the trompets of the Lord blowen against them though they see the viallz of the Lords wrath powred vpon them and all their doings yet stop they their eares wincke with their eies lest they should see with their eies and heare with theire eares and vnderstand with their heartes and be conuerted healed And therfore are so farr from finding place to repentance that they opeÌ„ their mouthes into blasphemie and railings especially these men that haue the marcke of the Beaste vpon whome that euill malignant sore is fallen as you dayly see and heare in their bookes pulpets And how well these gouernours mariners merchantmen and all that trafique on this sea can endure the borning of these their pleasant gainefull wares how they waile howle and crye out when this heauenly fire is cast out into their shippes Let the behauiour of these Bishopps their hierarchie and Priestes towards the seruants of God that speak against their AntichristiaÌ„ proceadings shew and how they bestir them to quench the burning of the harlot smiting rending Christs poore witnesses with tongue tooth and naile casting out of their mouthes a flood of raylings reproches sclanders criminations against theÌ„ of poysoned bitters waters corrupt doctrines blasphemous opinions vnsufferable peruerting abusing the scriptures to hide tollerat or defend the antichristian forgeries abhominations disorder enormities of their Church ministrie that are discouered condempned by the word of God in the mouthes of vs his simple witnesses Of this sort amongst manie other such like are two bookes notoriously infamous lately published by one George Giffard a Priest of their orders against certeine christians whome he calleth Brownists Donatiste In the one of these Bookes he laboureth to defend cleare the parish assemblies of the Church of England of such heinous crimes as the said christians obiect against them and forsake them for witnessing suffring in bandes persecution against the same vnder the handes of those popish Prelats Romish Priestes In the other Booke he indeuoreth to recouer the blame he iustly suffred in the first for reproching sclandering blaspheming accusing these faithfull and innocent christians applijng himself to proue them Donatists by comparing together them from poinct to poinct Both which Bookes are here answered and now at length published to the pervsing iudgment of al men Where they shal see how well he hath delyuered and acquitted their Church in the first As also how iustly he hath proued his charges accusations and blasphemies in the first second The â—ower principall transgressions wherwith we charge and for which we forsake these parish assemblies Namely the prophanenes wickednes confusion of the people which are here receiued reteined nourished as members The vnlawfullnes of their whole ministrie which is imposed vpon them reteined mainteined by them The superstition idolatrie of their publique worship in that deuised Leitourgie which is imposed vpon them And the forgerie of their antichristian ecclesiasticall gouernment to which al their Churches stand subiect are such and so apparant as not only proue these parish assemblies not to be true established Churches of Christ But if it were admitted which can neuer be proued that they somtimes had bene true established Churches yet these transgressions obstinatly stood in and defended are sufficient causes of our seperation from them in this degenerate estate For where such prophane coÌ„fuse multitâ—des without anie exception seperatioÌ„ or choice were all of them immediatly from publique idolatrie at one instant receiued or rather compelled to be members of this Church in some Parish or other where they inhabited without anie due calling to the faith by the preaching of the gospel going before or orderly ioyning togither in the faith there being no voluntarie or perticular confession of their owne faith and duties made or required of anie and last of all no holy walking in the faith found amongst them Who can say that these Churches consisting of this people were euer rightly gathered or built according to the rules of Christs Testament Or who can say that this people in this estate are the communion of Sainctes Or who without sacrilege in this estate can administer the holy things of God vnto or in the same communicate with this people Likewise where these parishes haue a false antichristian ministerie imposed vpoÌ„ them who can say that they are the true established Churches of Christ to the building ministerie wherof Christ hath ordeined instituted and prescribed a certaine ministrie vnto the worldes end Or who without sacrilege may ioyne vnto or communicate with a false antichristian ministrie Christ also hath gyuen vnto his Church perpetuall and alsufficient rules in his holy word for the whole administratioÌ„ gouernmeÌ„t of his established churches to which they are bound wherby they ought to buyld proceede and walke Those Churches then that receiue an other Leitourgie an other foundation other rules for their
â—eare and together with him grow liue reigne stand and fall as the braÌ„ches with the tree Now wee knowing the plant cannot easilye be deceiued in the grafts especiallie knowing them from their cradles nourished with the milke of superstition instructed in the schole of heathen vanitie brought vp in the Colledges of more then monkish idlenes and disorder exercised in vaine and curious artes whose diuinitie is by tradition and according to their progresse degrees therin commeÌ„ded to the Ordinarie who making probation of them accordingly doth either initiate or trayne them in this idolatrons office or els giue them their full orders with his paper licence popish seale therat Thus are they either presented to a Benifice instituted inducted where they ringe their bells pay the first fruictes taxes proxes and are sworne to their canonicall obedience to his Scenes Courtes Synods c Or els as they terme them they are become Preachers either waged Chaplens mercenarie Curats or hireling teachers gaping for promotion Which being obteined they change remoue eâ—terchange according to their best aduantage In this maner being entred by intrusion they cannot but lyue by theft spoile and rapine as their popish tithes the goods of the poore and offrings of the prophane indifferently and gouerne by tyrannie and perfidie Tyrannie in exeâ—uting the popish Iniunctions euen the statutes of Omry Perfidie in betraijng all into the hands of their Lords the Bishops Thus fulfil they scriptures by which who so examineth their infinite transgressions in perticular can want no store of Argumentâ— against this Ministrie our purpose being here rather to shew some theÌ„ to set downe all or to confute anie of their odious enormities Which are so grosse that as sone as they are but manifested by the light they are reproued And it could not be if the Lord had not layd a vaile ouer their hearts that where the scriptures are read these deformities could be hid tollerated or defended But in stead of an Argument to vs you turne your speach to the simple people and giue them counsell if they doubt of your Ministerie to supend their iudgments and to inquire if ther be anie Churches of God vnder heauen and what they do iudge of the Ministerie and Church of England c. Is this the best counsell you can giue them vse you thus to appeaze vnquiet coÌ„sciences and to resolue their doubtes With what conscience can they which remaine doubtfull of the truth and lawfulnes of your ministerie frequent your prayers and preaching in the meane time vntil they may send ouer sea and be resolued from thence You know that what is not of faith is sinne But with what conscience can you vse poore soules thus that inquire the truth at your mouth to send them ouer sea you wot not whether to be resolued of your Ministerie Churches Is your Church built vpon the words of men or vpon the worde of God Is this to proue your Church Ministerie by the word of God Or to vse the old worne Arguments of your mother Church of Rome who was wont to defend her self by vniuersalitie consent What if all the Churches learned meÌ„ in the world should say you are a Church which wee must tel you by the way they all neuer did neither caanie which knoweth the word of God and your estate aright but if they should could they or all the world iustifie that God condempneth Should not a people inquire at their God from the liuing to the dead Remember yee not that it is written To the lawâ— the testimonies if they speake not it is because there is no light in them But yee are gone out of the way yee haue caused manie to fall by the Lawe yee haue broken the Couenant of Leâ—ie saith the Lord of hostes therfore haue I made you also to be despised and vile before all the people because you kept not my Wayes but haue bene partiall in the Lawe Yea the iudgments of God are alredie fallen vpon you you all as he speaketh by his Propheâ— being couered with a spirit of slumber euen strickeÌ„ with the blindnes of Elimas groping the way in the noone light because you haue peruerted the straight waies of the Lord and being thus miserable and blinde out of the way not only perceiue it not but loue darknes more then light refusing the light when yt is brought you yea despising yt because of the fewenes and basenes of them that bring yt you And in this Pharisaicall pride procede after your accustomed maner of blaspheming terming vs fewe vncharitable Anabaptists Donatists c. Thus fulfill you the measure of your forefathers thus dealt they with all Gods faithfull seruants that were sent vnto them yea euen with CHRIST himself refusing him for his simplicitie reputing him emong thieues deceiuers c We looke for no better vsage at your hands the seruant is neither greater nor better then his Maister if they haue done thus to the greene tree what shall not you doo to the drie Yet so far are we from all danger or harme by theis curses that God turneth them forthwith vnto vs as a blessing and to a comfortable assurance both of the fellowship of the faith and of the suffrings of CHRIST Blessed are you when men reuile you and say all maner of euil against you for my names sake c. Againe through the mercies of our God all the iniâ—ries you can offer vnto vs cannot ouercome our charitie or breake our patience In the one we possesse our soules in the other we will not cease to praie for you euen as for our selues and be redie to doo you anie good we can Now to those poore soules whome you like miserable phisitians thus cure we giue this aduise yet not we but the Load That they beware of Wolues in sheepes clothing That thei â—ollow not blind guides too far That thei marke diligentlie and auoide such as transgresse and abide not in the doctrine of CHRIST not walke after the rule of the Gospel That thei turne away from such as make a shew of godlines but denie the power and practize therof deceiuing with faire wordes the hearts of the simple talking of CHRIST but denijng him in deedes Further we send them not to mans worde nor ouer sea but to Gods worde which is neere them euen in their mouthes and in their hearts Let them therby trie the spirits before thei belieue them Let them therby measure their Temple their Altar and their Worshippers and especiallie their owne hearts that thei may be wise to that which is good and simple concerning euil If the latter part of your answere had bene put in the beginning to haue 〈◊〉 downe what maketh a true Minister of Christ you approued your Ministrie accordinglie we had suffered lesse iniurie and you lesse blame NotwithstaÌ„ding because it is neuer to late to repeÌ„t if this your offer be according to your heart we most
their owne names alone The contrarie appeareth in the verie words of the commandements Neither if this were so can they shewe themselues to haue an Eâ—angelistes office as they had THe other two sortes the one wherof giueth this power of excommunication vnto the Consistorie of Elders without the people the other vnto the people by pluralitie of voyces without the Elders fal into these errors and confusion in that they knowe not or at the least doe not dulie consider what either the communion of Sainctes or the holie order of Christ is in his Church For if they did they would neuer thus vnnaturallie separate the members from the bodie or diuide the bodie into partes The first sorte of these interpret these wordes Eipeâ—te â—cclesia Tel the Conâ—isâ—ory building it vpon the Iewes San hedrin or Sunedrion That as the Iewes in those tymes complayned vnto their Elders in this councel and the councel cast out of the Syâ—â—gogue such as they iudged offenders as Iohn 9. 22. 12. 42. So our Sauiour Math. 18. 17. sendeth to this newe CoÌ„sistory who haue like power to caste out of the Church We may here as in a mirâ—our behold how far the wisest whilest they followe their owne deuises do erre from the truth Is it likelie or possible that our Sauiour Christ would fetch his patterne for the Elders of his Church and th'excuting these high iudgments from that corrupt degenerat Sunedrion of the Iewes which by th'institutioÌ„ of God was merelie civile and not or deined for causes ecclesiastical as appeareth Exod. 18 Numb 11. Deutr. 1. the Priestes bearing the chardge and hauing the deciding of al ecclesiasticall causes Numb 18. Deut. 17. But this councel of theirs was now mixed of the Elders of the People and the Priestes and handled al causes both civile and ecclesiastical indifferently Mat. 26. 3. Actt. 4. 5. How vniustlie and vngodlie they dealt may appeare by their handling our Sauiour and his Apostles from tyme to tyme. Now as there is no likenes to collect these surmises from that place so is ther no one circumstance in that scripture to leade thervnto There being taught how al Christians ought to reproue and prosecute offences one towards an other al being generallie comprised within this rule to admonish be admonished aswel Elders as others There is no mentioÌ„ of anie sending vnto such Consistory of Elders as they â—eigne vnto themselues would erect The Heathen Publicane there spokeÌ„ of haue no reference vnto neither giue anie occasion to speake of the Iewish Sunedrion The heathen al men knowe were not excoÌ„municate or caste out but kept out of the Temple they might not enter Deut. 23. The Publicanes though in ciuile conversation they were abhorred of the precise Pharasies yet were they not caste out of the TeÌ„ple being Iewes or Proselites Luk. 18. 10. So that our Sauiour there rather teacheth his Disciples by the present estate estimation of the Heathen the Publicane how to walke towards th'excommunicate by th'example of the one to avoide al spiritual communion with them as with heathens as also by the example of the Publicane al civile conversation as much as may be theÌ„ anie way there sendeth to this Consistory wherof through the whole Testament of Christ they can shew no warrant But directlie contrarie it were to the order power and libertie of the whole Church to the duties of euerie member and to the duties of these Elders in their offices That they should in this maner draw all the actions affaires of the whole Church into their priuate Consistory before theÌ„selues only Elders were appointed for the preseruatioÌ„ of the order of the Church and not for the subuertion therof for the defence of the libertie of the least and not to plucke away the libertie of all Elders were appointed to instruct to guide the Church in the worde and wayes of God and not to plucke the worde of God from them into their owne handes only and to debarre them from walking in the waies that God hath prescribed and commanded Though Elders be gouernours and ouerseers of the Church yet are they seruantes of the Church and not Lordes ouer Godes heretage They are members of the whole bodie and not the whole body If al were one or some fewe members where were the bodie The bodie is not one member but manie And as yt coÌ„sisteth of manie meÌ„bers so hath yt vse of al and may be separate from none How vnnatural then are those members which thus separate seclude themselues from the whole yea rather sequester seclude the whole from them and arrogate assume the publick duties power of the whole into their owne handes as though God had giueÌ„ al giftes vnto them and they had no neede of others And thus puffed vp with preeminence of their owne place and excellencie of their owne giftes despise all the rest as base ignorant vnworthie to be in their Consistory to haue anie voyce of consent or dissent there alleadging them to be tumultuous contentious factious vngouerned ignorant inclined to the worst c thus abuse they their owne giftes and depraue others These are euill speaches and harde reportes to be gyuen out vpon the people of God the chosen of CHRIST partakers of the same pretious faith and glorious inheritance with themselues members of the same bodie even members of CHRIST with them sanctified with the same spirit and abhorring these euils wherwith they are chardged humble and easie to be ledd ordered and gouerned by the worde of God in all thinges Not presuming to speake beyonde the proportion of their faith knowledge or without necessitie or due order which who so transgresseth is publickly reproued So that these fitlier agree to these tumultuous assemblies where all the prophane are receaued as members then vnto the holie Churches of Christ where none but the faithfull are admitted or remayne Wherfore these accsuations which are caste vpon the people are rather caste vpon the Church yea vpon Christ himself who is the aucthor of this lawe commandement who sendeth to the whole Church and coÌ„mandeth the whole Church not the Consistory to excommunicate yet is not Christ the aucthor of disorder but of peace neither haue the Churches of God custome to be contentious For the auoyding of which disorder and contention are Elders appointed of God to instruct and guide the Church in doing the wil of God And not to withdrawe those actions which God hath commaunded to be donne in and by his Church publickely into a priuate Consistory into the handes of a fewe Wherin they make theÌ„selues transgressours of the wil of God disturbers and violaters of that holy order which CHRIST hath established in his Church and of that heauenly Syâ—phony wherin CHRIST hath contempered the whole bodie together And now as the fault and pride of these Elders is great and intollerable of the one side
of the Gospel is compelled to runne backe againe to iustifie the Church of ROME and to maintaine that these assemblies were the true Churches of Christ in the deepest defection vnder Antichrist The Apostasie hauing invaded the Church yt contynued euen then the TeÌ„ple of God in which Antichrist did sit and that the very Idolators were sealed with the seale of Baptisme professed CHRIST in some poinctes rightly their childreÌ„ from antient discent within the Couenant the ministeri so far remayning as yt was the authentick seale delyuered by them the Brownistes not vnderstanding the scripture thus in mad furie lyke blynde hypocrites condemne c. Let vs reason a litle more coolely rage will not serue to carie the matter We will here take it granted that your parishes ministerie c cannot now be proued the Church and ministerie of Christ except they were so in the time of poperie We see further how wel the Gospel is opened or Antichrist discouered with you wheÌ„ such a famous Prophet hath not learned to reade the mysterie writté in that Womans forehead which the holy Ghost recordeth to be this greaâ—e Babilon the Mother of whoredomes and abhominations of the earth Reuel 17. Againe the scripture saith Cap. 14. If any man worship the Beast his image and receiue a marke in his forehead or on his hand the same shall drincke of the wine of the wrath of God Who wil M r. Giffard make this Woman if not the Church of Rome sitting vpoÌ„ the people tongues and nations that were seduced or are seduced in this Apostasie And howe hath he read the scriptures that saith the seales of the Couenant belong to open blasphemous Idolators their seede God saith hee will punish the transgression vnto the third and fourth generation He saith nay though they be the childreÌ„ of Idolators and contynue in their Fathers steppes they ought to haue the seals of the Couenant Againe if he say the seale of Baptisme in the false Church belongeth vnto that adulterous seede howe wil he denie that blasphemous sacrifice and bread God against which so manie witnesses haue gyueÌ„ their lyues which is plainely denijng of Christ to be come in the flesh and imagining him a fantastical body to be in euery place How can M r. Giffard yeild them one SacrameÌ„t and not the other Fuâ—ther how ignorantly he speaketh of the Couenant and of a SacrameÌ„t made by that ministerie it were too long to discusse Wel in al this he hath forgotten his comparison betwene the Donatistes and vs they had no such controuersie with Caecilianus but now pervse one of Mr. Giffards The Church of papacie in the deepest defectioÌ„ was the visible Temple of God hauing the true seales of the Couenant I then reason thus The Church of of Geâ—eua Scotland lowe Contries France c. haue separated from the Church of Rome which is the apparant Church of God for none haue the true ministerie the true authentick seales of the Couenant but the true Churche Therefore they are Schismaticks Donatistes Brownists Hereticks Againe Geneua Scotland c condemne the Church of Rome by separating from yt therefore they do also condemne the Church of England which approueth of and communicateth with the Papistes Moreouer howe wil he answere this Her Ma â—ie hath expelled the Pope his ministerie his doctrine and idolatrous worship therfore she hath expelled the ministerie and worship of the true Church And what followeth by Mr. Giffard his collections think you they that reiect the ministerie of Christ reiect Christ himself But these Brownisâ—es condemne the reformation by Magistrates c. No it is a false sclander We only put difference betwene the reformation by the Magistrates sworde and the reformation by doctrine and he is a false Prophet that either goeth about to set these at variance or confoundeth them The Magistrat suppresseth the euill within the Church without the Church in their Dominions by bodily punishmeÌ„ts in equitie and defendeth the godly The ministerie of the word gatherâ—th guydeth ordereth c a people vnto and vnder the true ordinances of Christ by the Word and Spirit The Prince may and ought suppresse all false vvorship false ministerie idolatrous assemblies and proclaime and commaund true worship orderly assemblies true ministerie c. But the workmanship hereof is spiritual by doctrine c to be accomplished in due order according to the rule of the word Stil wee vrge you therfore to shewe vs this gathering ordering and gouerning of a true Church in these parrish assemblies by the word of God In the meane time you bestowe but your oyle meale and your whole ministerie and guystes to dawbe vpp Idolatrie confusion sacrilegde Neither doth the word reformaâ—ion agree to your Church for cursed is he that buyldeth the walles of Iericho not one stone of Babel wil serue for a foundation What comparison is there then betwene your reformation and the reformation by Iosâ—as shew the perticulars we wil answere Ells it shall suffice that he sacrificed the Priestes of BAAL vpon the Altar reduced the people to the true ministerie and ordinances of the Temple If the Priestes did not this according to Gods worde then they were guyltie and to be punashed by his sword So that these false Prophets Inchanters counterfeit time-seruers which extol her Ma tiâ— for hauing graÌ„ted the freedome of the Gospel true ministerie true worship gouernment c and yet themselues do misleade the people in a false way to peâ—dition shall not only lye open to the Magistrates sworde when God shall put in their heart to execute his wil but answere before the Lord for al this confusion sacriledge Idolatrie and filthines maintained by their deceitful tongues I do not pleade to haue them put to death because they neuer knew or profâ—ssed the truth but to haue their false offices abolished and they compelled to some lawfull calling in the Church or common wealth as they should be therevnto founde meete and be lawfully called Wee are not deceiued then in imagining that you woulde make vs belieue the Princes did compell them to be a Churche which were no Church before without any orderly gathering guyding and ordering of them by Christes lawes worship ministerie and ordinances for wee deny y t your parrish assemblies were in time of popery true Churches or haue nowe forsaken all false worship Proue your asseitions and what discipline belongeth to the false Church iudge you Of the pollution by communicating with open sinners WHere hee maketh the cause of our separation and as hee calleth it our accusing of these parrish assemblies to be vtterly fallen from the Couenant of God to be for that they are polluted with communicating with open sinners he mistaketh and I feare purposly falâ—ifieth our minde writings for we haue added to this an obstinate wilful retayning of al sortes of prophane as members of your Church gyuing them the Sacraments c. But as I haue donne before so must
you here take my answere that vve deny these parrish assemblies to be true Churches or to haue anie power or aucthoritie to cast our any according to Christes ordinance so that wee cannot reason vvith you as to make the controuersie of open sinners in the Church but as a confused assemblie not being euer gathered vnto Christ or guyded by his ordiances We know that in the true Church are shalbe opeÌ„ sinners yet ther are rules lawes by due censure to bring them to repentance or els to cast them out if they remaine obstinate in anie open grosse sinne of which things we wil not enter into discourse with you denijng you to haue eyther true Church or power to redresse abuses in your parrish assemblies And where he demandeth vvhat order of discipline wee haue obserued in our separation We haue learned that no other censures belong vnto the false Church then powring forth the vialls into the ayre waters sunne c. For this wee haue the direction and commandement of God Reuel 16. 18. 6. Againe where should we finde your Synod of Pastors in the whole tayle of the Dragon you haue no such order as you prate of vnskilfully your L. Arch-B or Ordinatie can teach you otherwise then plead for Synods of Pastors For anie ChristiaÌ„ or equal triall either in free conference by the Scriptures or triall by the coÌ„mon law we haue vpon the dispence of our lyues long sued for it and caÌ„not obtaine anie as vvee haue said and finde nothing but furor dolus tumulius amongst your broode Now after his former discourâ—e he will from poinct to poinct proue vs to agree with the Donatistes First saith he the Donatistes did accuse and condemne the Churche and ministerie of the Churches most falslie And I say saith he the Brownistes are as false accusers as they and condemne as iniustly in all crimes Here are bold and sore chardges but Mr. Giffards bare word wil not stand The Donatistes cause was not about the orderly gathering of a true Church but for the casting out of the vnworthie not about the office entrance or administration of the ministerie but about the sinnes of such as were in that office So that if Mr. Giffard would looke againe of the cause he should finde no cause to keepe this stirr as vpon a stage to no end or edifijng Wee haue often told him in our former writinges that our matter is not about offenders in the Church but about the beeing or not beeing a Church In the meane time he handsomly layeth vpon their owne filthines saying companies and swarmes of drunckardes gluttons whoremasters couetous worldlings greedie vsurers extortioners oppressours bribers defrauders lyers backbyters and sclanderers envious hateful and contentious persons swearers and cursers are suffred and admitted to the Lords Table this saith he in manie or in most of their parrish assemblies And many of their ministeri such Where admit them a Church in his owne coÌ„ceit let him ad now this more which is as true that they haue no power to redresse these euils by due censure for that they thus coÌ„tynue after they haue bene long ofteÌ„ reproued for this sacriledge and we are bold to pronouÌ„ce the Priest as the people a deÌ„ne of theiues a cage of vncleane spirits as the harlot that receiueth all commers cast together into Iesabels bed Hee further confesseth that the threatnings of the Prophets against Israel are due vnto them Whereby hee confesseth these assemblies not to be the Churches of God For all the Prophets that prophesied against Israel in the defection pronounce her not to be the Churche of God reade Hosea 1. 2. Ieremie 3. Ezechiell 23. But saith he might not the Donatistes haue pleaded that there were manie wicked people wicked Ministers in those Churches from which they separated We answere that is not questioÌ„ For first we denie you to haue anie Church orderly gathered vnto the ordinances worship gouernment of CHRIST which they did not And againe we haue not to reasoÌ„ what they might haue excepted against those assemblies or ministers but what they made the cause of their separation wherein you trouble but your self and with odiouse names deceiue the ignorant to make anie shewe of agreement betwene our cause and theirs It wil be demanded saith he whither Cyprian the rest of the godly did worship together with those open sinners in their dayes ioyning with them in prayer and in the sacramentes c. No the question shalbe Mr. Giffard Whether if they did communicate with the open transgressions of the lawe in their time they did wel and lawfully therein or no for I trust you will graunt that the Church hath alwayes power to cast out the obstinate offenders reade then the â— of the 1 to the Corinth a litle more coÌ„sideratly and tel vs whether they faulted not in keeping in their fellowship the incestious person and for not purging out the leauen from amongst them for what saith the text Now I write vnto you that you companie not together If anie that is called a brother be a fornicator or an Idolator or railer or a drunckard or an extortioner vvith such an one eate not Where the words me synanamignysthai be not together commingled and after vvith such an one eate not sheweth a plaine inhibition of communicating with the open prophane or impenitent offendors For where is this commixture or commixion if not in that holy banquet and coniunction in the communion and supper of the Lorde and if Mr. Giffard could discerne the spiritual things he might see the outward signes of bread and wyne to be tokens not only of our vnion with Christ and benefit of his death but also of our communion vvith the members of his bodye spiritually as the holy Ghost reasoneth saijng The cup of blessing vvich vvee blesse is yt not the communioÌ„ of the blood of CHRIST and the bread vvhich vve breake is it not the commanion of the bodie of CHRIST for vve that are manie are one bread and one bodie because 〈◊〉 are partakers of one bread For vs then to come together in this banquet and spiritual reioycing with the members of CHRIST to our iudgment we haue true comfort one with another But with the open prophane or obstinate open knowen transgressor ther caÌ„ be no good reioycing fellowship or communion for besides the vvicked Priest that presumptuouslye blesseth where God curseth and committeth sacriledge in delyuering the signe of Gods Couenant with his people in CHRIST to the treaders vnder their feete of his body and blood so the whole Congregation and euery one that participateth with those open wicked transgresse in not admonishing casting out the leauen against so manie rules as command admonition excommunication by due order and partake with y e wicked against God by their reioycing with them as bretheren But as I haue stil pleaded with you we know better order then blinde separation in pride for the sinnes
leaue out the word Apochripha thus Only the Canonical scriptures lyuely voice of Gods owne graces are to be brought into the publick assemblies for doctrine prayer But mens writings or Collections are neither Canonical scripture nor the lyuely voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speak in y e publick assemblies Therfore no mans writing may be brought into nor imposed vpon the publick assemblies for doctrine and prayer Now where he cauilleth about the perfectnes of the rule absolute perfectnes of the graces it doth not help him For the word of God being of necessitie by the lawe and ordinance of God to be read in our owne language I trust he will not denye yt to be the written word of God for the vnperfectnes of the translatiō being to the best search the Church can make skanned by the original tongue and stil amended or at least the Church no further bound to yt then yt shal be found to be the perfect rule so likewise the lyuely voice of Gods graces are not for the imperfectnes to be excluded being Gods appointed ordinance neither is anie fault in the translation to be allowed and errour in doctrine or prayer are presently to be admonished repented of Mr. Giffard then must denye the Bible translated into our owne language to be the Canonicall Scriptures and denye the lyuely voice of Gods lawfull officers and such as are therevnto called in doctrine and prayer to be the manifestations of the spirit and vtterance of Gods graces for the assemblie or els grant the proposition firme And if hee can put dead mens writinges into the place of either of these I will yeild In the meane time I hold such translations to be the worde of God and by Gods ordinance put into our owne language to all our knowledges retayning y e words of God which word the lyuely vse of Gods owne graces in the mouth of such as he therevnto appointeth are only to be brought into the publicke assemblies for prayer and doctrine for God hath cōmanded these vnto vs as his owne ordināces in his assemblies and no other means wherby either God speaketh vnto vs or his people vnto him in the Congregation To this all the scriptures beare witnesse the word is always firme confirmed with miracles from heauen and cōmended to vs by Christ the Prophetts Apostles to be the foundation Canon light lanterne c the graces of the Spirit gyuen for the interpretatiō prayer doctrine c. CHRIST is ascēded vp into heauen and hath giuen giftes vnto men to serue their tyme minister in their place in this house These graces stil renewed not only in those called of God in this seruice for their dayly administration but newe workmen thrust forth into this haruest as the Lord of the house disposeth which graces of his Spirit are compared to two oliue branches which emptie out of themselues thorow two golden pipes Zacharie 4. 12. And to seuen thunders which vtter their voices that cannot be written Away therfore vvith your patched mass-booke yt may neither stande for a foundatiō in Gods house nor for the lyuely voyces of these thunders you make yt a monstrous Idoll by putting yt in either of these vses yet you will make yt serue for both Wee haue nothing to do with your matters of order as you vnderstand that order for tyme place wee reason of the spirituall action yt self when wee entreat of y e meanes whereby God speaketh to vs and appointeth vs to speake vnto him Wee can cast out the errours in the translation or doctrine or prayer and yet retaine Gods vvorde in our owne language and the liuely voice of his graces in the assemblie When you can do so with your deuises and newe hatched Leitourgies wee will giue eare vnto you and them till then wee thinck of your counterfeit playes and pleas for your Idolls and detestable sacriledge and high prophanation of Gods ordinances with Iannes and Iambres to resist the truth Paraphrases wee hold to be mens writinges and expositions and not the word of God nor the liuely voice of Gods grace of interpretation or prayer therefore to be excluded this place of seruice vnto God Thus you see the further you wrastle the further you make your wares the best of them odious to euerie godly conscience You say I deceiue the simple by gyuing them one crabbe amongst many apples but you may behold your best apples such as the holy Ghost hath foretold vs Reuelations 18. to be entisements to euil It is well you will grant my Propositions so sound and I would wish if such be Gods wil they might be better favoured Nowe because I wil not stand either repeating or contending about Syllogismes I will take this much yeilded of your owne conclusions which is as much in effect as I haue affirmed where you teach me thus to reason No mans writings are the vndoubted truth of God but haue errours and imperfections therfore men cannot further ground vpon them then they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures Againe The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles Prophets therfore our faith is not to rest vpō mens writings Wherevpon doth necessarily follow that if mens writings may not be builded vpon nor rested vpon howe should you dreame it lawfull to impose them for lawes vpon the publick assemblies or to haue them there read to beare rule as the wordes of God And this you confessed in an other of your writings that God spake vnto vs out of his vndoubted worde or by his owne word If then God speake not vnto vs by mens writinges that be of priuate interpretation in the assemblie nor that they can be made groundwork to buyld our faith vpon or to rest assured vpon yt will be granted I hope that they are not to be imposed vpon the publick assemblies as lawes and rules but left to euerie mans priuate vse in their libertie as they wil answere for themselues what vse they put them to and whither they doe not prefer them before the booke of God or preiudice themselues by them This first poinct is then plaine That only Gods vndoubted worde is to be imposed brought in and maintayned in the publick assemblies as lawes and rules no other vvritings being authentick or Canonical But here Mr. GIFF. doth in effect affirme that the word of God yt self is not authentick or Canonical except in the Hebrew or Greeke Copie Wherein he goeth a litle beyond the Papists that wil yet allow the vvorde of God in latine And if it shoulde be defended that the vvorde of God vvere not the vvorde yt self that vvee haue in our owne language it wil follow that no mā could haue assurance of faith except he vnderstoode both Hebrew and Greeke yea be able soundly to interpret the scriptures in both If the translations be so far mens vvritings that yt ceaseth generally to be the vvord of God that