Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	lord_n	young_a	youth_n	99	3	8.0630	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88105	Light for smoke: or, A cleare and distinct reply by Iohn Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster, to a darke and confused answer in a booke made, and intituled The smoke in the temple, by Iohn Saltmarsh, late preacher at Brasteed in Kent, now revolted both from his pastorall calling and charge. Whereto is added, Novello-mastix, or a scourge for a scurrilous news-monger.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.; C. D. Novello-mastix.	1646 (1646)	Wing L1883; Thomason E333_2; Thomason E333_3; ESTC R200742	90,377	128

benefit by Tythes as now I have And if Tythes were taken away I am confident I should be no loser by another allowance though it may be I may fall under a misrepresentation as if I argued for them as Demetrius for the honour of Diana when I mind ●●●●ing more then the gaine of Tythes as he did the gaine of her silver Shrines and I may the rather suspect it from some of your side though not from you because I find the like charge laid upon Mr. Edw. by i Whisp in the eare of Mr. Tho. Edw. p. 1.2.15 Mr. W.W. in his Whisper in his care wh● as he is like Luther in the vigour and freedome of his spirit so is he as Luther said of himselfe of all sinnes the freest from covetousnesse and on my knowledge whereas he hath had the offer of many good Benefices he resused them and hath no Tythes at all for his maintenance but a voluntary pension which is not competent for his charge or paines either in an answerable preportion or a seasonable payment and yet is he contented with it minding much more the doing of the worke he undertooke then the receiving of the wages SECT IX Of Mr. Colemans observation of the Church of Scotland Smoke Pag. 28. TO your other of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland th●● there is no Heresie nor Schisme l●t Mr. Coleman our learned and pious Brother speake for us both from his experiences Light I 〈◊〉 by this passage you have not read the Booke you pretend to answer for Mr. Colemans experience was not of Heresie and Schisme in the Church of Scotland but as he gave instance of the Presbyteries usurpation of the power of banishment and if you meane Mr. Colemans charge for that as I suppose you doe you might have taken notice of an Answer to it in the seventh Section of mine Examination of your New Quere p. 21. which though it were in part but conjecturall is confirmed by a more certain Answer of the Reverend Commissioner Mr. * Mr. Gillespie his Nihil Respondes p. 24. Gillespie in these words What from Scotland I my selfe saith Mr. Coleman did heare the Presbyterie of Edinborough censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the City was not this an incroachment It had beene an incroachment indeed if it had been so But he will excuse me if I answer him in his owne Language which I use not p. 3. 5. It is at the best a most uncharitable slander and there was either ignorance or mindlesnesse in him that sets it downe There is no banishment in Scotland but by the Civill Magistrate who so farre aydeth and assisteth Church Discipline that prefane and scandalous persons when they are found unruly and incorrigible are punished with banishment or otherwise A stranger coming at a time into one of our Presbyteries and hearing of somewhat which was represented to or reported from the Magistrate ought to have so much circumspection and charitie as not to make such a rash and untrue report He might have at least inquired when he was in Scotland and informed himselfe better whether Presbytery or the Civill Magistrate doe banish If he made no such inquirie he was rash in judging if he did his offence is greater when after information he will not understand And if you put your cause to the arbitration of Mr. Coleman you will find cause by the sentence to conceive him to be no more an Independent then we have to take him to be a Presbyterian and I suppose I may say he is more ours then yours since he hath put himselfe into the Association of a Classicall Assembly in the Province of London howsoever whether he prove a Participle or a Neuter I know you will not be concluded by his either opinion or practise no more shall we SECT X. A Comparison of young men and old for prudence and counsell Of visions and dreames where the second of Ioel vers 28. and Act. 2.17 are vindicated from Mr. Saltm his mistaking and misapplication of them Smoke Pag. 29. To that of Iob which you apply in way of reproach to the younger whom you call as it were greene heads c. Smoke p. 29. Light In stead of acknowledgement of your misapplication of Iob 32. vers 6 7. where with I charge you Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke you lay a charge upon me for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both I will set down first my words to you then yours to me my words are these For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned which are taken out of Iob 32. vers 6 7. Why doe not dayes speake and multitude of yeares teach knowledge they make nothing for his purpose for the meaning of them is not that Government or Discipline or any other usefull thing should not be with all convenient speed established but that the ancient with whom is wisdome Iob 12.12 the gray-headed and very aged men Chap. 15.10 who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres should be heard and heeded in matters of advise and consultation before such green-headed Counsellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine 1 Kings 12.13 14. Smoke Pag. 29. And your Answer to them is The elder I esteeme as Fathers and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speakes more gloriously as he himselfe saith Your young men shall see visions and upon your sonnes and daughters will I powre out my spirit your old men shall dreame deames Now whether is it more excellent to dreame dreames or to see visions The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of reformation then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely Light I spake no more either in praise of old men or disparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in question betwixt us yet thence you have taken occasion to magnifie young men and to vilifie the old alleadging the saying of the Prophet Ioel Your old men shall dreame dreames and your young men shall see visions and thereupon demanding whether is more excellent to dreame dreames or to see visions you resolve the Question your selfe thus Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely And doe all or onely or most young men see visions of Reformation and all or onely or most old men but dreame dreames of it If there be not such an Antithesis betwixt them your comparative thesis is an errour of youth a slander of age and I shall not doubt if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell with the old mans crutch bring what weapons you will or can to beat you out of the field or at least to give you the foyle But

besides your disparagement of old men I have some what to say to you for mistaking and misapplying the words of the Prophet Ioel 2.28 brought in by the Apestle Act. 2.17 first for the defence of old men you make as if it were safer to hearken to young men then to them as if the young men were wiser counsellours then the old I grant before-hand that sometimes there may be young men as Ioseph Daniel and Samuel who may have a spirit of wisdome and thereby may be fit to give counsell and to governe the wayes of the aged but setting aside singular and extraordinary examples compare age youth in the generall and the resolution of reason and example will be that old men are fitter to direct and guide the young then contrariwise for in old men the passions and perturbations of the minde which give great impediment to prudence for they are to reason as fumes and vapours about a candle which dimme the light thereof are more subdued then in young men Besides experience which is both the parent of wisdome of which it is begotten and the nurse which bringeth it on to a further growth and proficiency falls not within the fathome of a young mans reach but of the old man hence is it that Solomon saith The hoary head is a ●rowne of glory if it be found in the way of righteousnesse Prov. 16.31 and that by the law the younger sort were to rise up before the hoary head and to honour the face of the old man Levit. 19.32 For with the ancient is wisdome and in length of dayes understanding Iob 12.12 And hence it is that the Counsellours and Governours of Common-weales are called Senators and their Assembly * Senatus nomen dedit aetas nam i●dem patres sunt Quintil. Instit orat l. 1. c. 6. p. 38. Senatus from age and in the old Testament they are called the Elders of Israel and in the New those whose function requireth of them a wisdome of the best kinde and highest degree for it must be such a wisdome as must goe beyond his subtiltie who deceiveth all the world Rev. 12.6.9 are called Presbyters a word in Greeke of the same signification with Elders in English And for example you cannot be forgetfull of the Story of R●h●boams old and young Counsellours 1 King 12. nor what prelation is given to the old above the young in that Story and while you remember it you should not sway the preeminence on the young mens side against the old men as you have done Besides the Scriptures there be manifold instances against your fence in the difference of age and youth I will minde you of some as that of a Tuum est undecunque evocare ascribere tibi exemple Mosis senes non juvenes Ber. de Cons lib. 4. cap. 4. col 886. Bernard counselling Eugenius to call to him Counsellours as Moses did that were old men not young men and of the Lacedemonians of whom b Apud Lacedaemonies ii qui amplissimuns magistratum gerunt ut sunt sic etiam appellantur senes Cicer. Cat● Major seu de Senect Tom. 3 ●p●rum Cicer. pag. 408. in fol. Cicero saith that they who are the chiefe Magistrates whose authoritie is of most ample extent as they are so they are called old men And among the Romans aged prudence was so much honoured that c Vt quisque atate antecellit ita sententia principatum abtine● Ibid. pag. 415. in the Colledge of Sages Sentences were partly valued by senioritie And there is good ground for this great estimation of old men d Maximas Respub per adolescentes labefast●s à senibus suste●●ates resti●●as reperiatis Ibid. p. 408. for great Common-weales as he sheweth which have been ruined by young men have been repaired and restored by old men Such as Agesilaus was whom though among the vulgar Egyptians when he came into their Countrey and they saw no stately traine about him but an old gray beard laid on the grasse by the seaside a little man that looked simply on the matter in a thread bare gowne fell a laughing at him yet the chiefe Captaines and Governours of King Tachis honourably received and were marvellously desirous to see him for the great fame that went abroad of him and he was famous for his wisdome both Military and Civill as c Plutarch in Agesil pag. 629.630 Plutarch reporteth in the Story of his life To him I could adde many examples of later time and neerer home I will name only one and that is my Reverend brother f See his booke de Diphthongis aut Bivocatibus Mr. Tho. Gataker who though he have been an old man a great while hath given of late since his sicknesse and secession from the Assembly such a specimen of a pregnant apprehension and faithfull memory as may assure a judicious Reader that albeit his body be weake his braine is not so though his head have been long gray his wit is yet greene and flourishing Secondly Now for mine other exception against your comparison In it you not onely give preeminence to young men before old but preferre them in this that young men see visions of reformation and old men dreame dreames of it onely wherein you wrap up three particulars which you take for granted but it will be an harder taske then you imagine to prove any one of them First That Revelations by visions are more excellent then those that come by dreames Secondly That visions ascribed to young men are denied to old men Thirdly That young men have visions of reformation old men onely dreame of it whereas First g Duo Revelationum modi per somnium scilicet per visionem imaginariam vigilanti objectam non se superant mutuo ratione excellentioris potentiae vel praestantioris modi cognoscendi cum uterque perficiatur in imaginativa Jacob. Bonfrer in Numb 12.6 pag. 78● col 1. some learned men have resolved that visions are not more excellent then dreames and the reasons may be First because in Scripture they are brought in as Revelations though different yet without prelation of the one before the other as Numb 12. If there be a Prophet among you I the Lord will make my selfe known unto him in a vision and speake unto him in a dreame Num. 12.6 Secondly as great matters are represented in dreames as in visions as the affliction of the children of Israel in Egypt and their deliverance was revealed to Abraham in a dreame Gen. 15.12 and the intercourse betwixt heaven and earth in the ministery of Angels was represented to Jacob in a dreame Gen. 28.12 It was in a dreame that Solomon had the singular wisdome imparted to him 1 King 3.5 By a dreame was the conception of Iesus Christ by the Holy Ghost revealed to Ioseph Matth. 1.20 and the plot of perdition against him with the way to prevent it Matt. 2.13 Thirdly as for the matter so

occasioned me to make such an amends for it as now I must doe In the last lease of your Quere when you had brought in your reasons for retarding the Governement you bring in two objections and make Answers to them the former is this c New Quere p. 7. Ob. 1. But the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs time and Haggai cals to the building Is it time c. Hag. 1.4 Before I bring in my Reply to your Answer I must minde you of a mistake in your single sheet which though it be but short is lyable to a very just exception for an errour in Story and you should have heard of it sooner from me but that I observed it not my selfe untill I found I was misguided by your allegation for I tooke it upon trust from you because I did not suspect you would misalledge any thing which did no way conduce unto your cause as the time of the building of the Temple doth not now though the errour were originally yours the correction may be mine which you may better receive from me then I might take misprision from you you say the Temple was built in Nehemiahs time but the truth is it was not as you affirme built in but before Nehemiahs time for the foundation of it was laide in the second yeare of Darius Hag. 2.10.17 i. in the yeere of the world 3452. 519 yeers before the Incarnation of Christ and it was finished in the sixth yeere of Darius Ezra 6.15 that is in the yeare of the world 3456. 515 yeers before Christs Incarnation but that building of Nehemiah was the building of the wals of Jerusalem Nehem. 2.17 18 19. and this was in the yeere of the world 3527. about 444. yeeres before the birth of the Messias this worke about the wals was a worke but of 52. dayes Nehem 6.15 the former about the Temple lasted about 4. yeeres as from the Scriptures forealledged may be inferred Now for your Answer it is this Yea but the materiall patterne was more clearely left and knowne then the Gospel patternes the other were more in the letter and these more in the spirit now there must be a proving of all things else there may be more haste then good speed as the Temple may be built by a false patterne as well as by a true and then better no building then no right Cedar to build withall This is all for which you challenge my silence and whereas you intimate some soliditie in it which I was not so well able to deale with as with the other part of your Answer Truly Sr. I neither had nor have any such opinion of it it seemed to me at first and it doth so now upon the review to be an intricate perplexed and confused jumbling of Metaphoricall and literall expressions together and not more darke for lack of light then weake for want of strength to that purpose for which it was framed and therefore I thought it more fit for a tacit preterition then for an expresse examination But if you will have this rather you shall have it and so I say unto it First that if the patterne were more cleare for building the Temple then the Gospel patterne for the setting up of a Church-Government why are you so confident and peremptory and punctuall for your Gospel patterne Secondly Why tell you us of Gospel patterns in the plurall number is there any more then one patterne of Government in the Gospel if so though the Independent patterne be yeelded to be a Gospel patterne which cannot be proved the Presbyterian may be so too for if there be more then one that rather then any other may be allowed to be another Thirdly when you say the other were more in the letter these more in the spirit what is your meaning by these words were there more formes and patternes of the Temple then one if there were why doe you not speake more clearely to the point of difference betwixt them if not why say you they were more in the letter and when you say these Gospel patterns are more in the spirit I would know whether they be written or not written if they be written they are as much in the letter as the other if they be not written how can you tell they be Gospel patterns Fourthly whereas you say The Temple may be builded by a false patterne if you meane it of the materiall Temple you deny the clearenesse of the patterne which before you professed And Fifthly When you say The Temple may be builded by a false patterne as well as by a true if you meane it of the materiall Temple in Ezra's time what is that to the Gospel Government in or since our Saviours time or if any thing it is to contradict your selfe who make the Temple patterne so cleare that there is no danger of a false patterne of misguidance If you meane it of the Government of the Gospel why doe you so confound what in the beginning of your Answer to the Objection you pretend to distinguish to wit the materiall Temple and the Evangelicall order of the Church Lastly whereas you say Better no building at all then no right Cedar to build withall what 's your meaning by this metaphor Cedar was the matter to build with not the patterne whereby the building was to be formed and set together which was the thing whereof you would make the Reader beleeve you made a fit comparison and shewed a materiall difference why the building of the Temple might be hastened in Ezra's time and yet the setting up of Government should be delayed in our time for which you have said nothing either to declare or assure what you tooke upon you to illustrate and make good unto your Reader whom I require now againe to judge betwixt us whether this passage of your Quere were not better omitted by me then remembred by you to put me to make such an Answer unto it as I have done SECT XXII Of staying for the Spirit to give light of instruction to the reformation of the Church Smoke Pag. 52. IS not that a very Gospel way to stay for the Spirits coming into the servants of the Lord take heed of denying inspired disciples you know it is a part of the fulfilling of the great Prophecie Act. 2. Indeed some of the Prelates many of them being uninspired themselves and having little of the spirit or none would needs say therefore that all inspirations and spirituall inlightnings were ended in the Church because ended in them and because they were so carnall themselves they thought none was spirituall and you remember how they made lawes even against the spirit in prayer Light First I confesse it is a Gospel way to stay for the spirits coming into the servants of the Lord the Apostles were commanded by our Saviour not to depart from Ierusalem but to waite there for the promise of the Father Act. 1.4 and they did so and there the

Holy Ghost came upon them Act. 2.3 And so the Prophecy of Ioel of pouring out the spirit in the last dayes Ioel 2.28 was fulfilled and is so implied by Peter Act. 2. vers 16 17. Secondly by the last dayes is not to be understood our present Age 1645 yeers after our Saviours first coming and God knows how many before his second coming by the last dayes may be understood not precisely those which are next to the worlds end but after times as in the prophecie of Iacob Gen. 19.1 which sometimes may be further as in that of Iacob and Ioel sometimes neerer hand as the Prophecie of Peter that there should come in the last dayes scoffers 2 Pet. 2.3 which was fulfilled and so is recorded in the last of the Apostolicall Epistles for in the 17. 18. verses of Iudes Epistle saith he Beloved remember the words which were spoken before of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ how that they told you there should be mockers in the last times who should walke after their owne ungodly lusts but the dayes of the Gospel are called the last times because after that is brought forth we must looke for no more changes of Religion and the manner of Gods worship as there was before in Moses time from what was in use before with the Patriarchs and since Christs time from the Ceremonials of Moses Thirdly though I doe not nor dare put limits to the Spirit which is free as the winde that bloweth where it listeth Ioh. 3.8 and doe acknowledge and blesse God for it that there is 〈◊〉 spirit of grace and supplications Zach. 1● 10 poured out upon many of Gods people and not onely upon Preachers but also upon divers others which are not and that it was a wicked part in divers of the Prelates for all on my knowledge were not guilty of it to stint the Ministers of the Gospel as they did by the 〈◊〉 forme in their Conan which was rather a bidding invitation to prayer then a prayer it solfe Yet fourthly since the Apostle Paul foretels of the later times that there shall be 〈◊〉 spirits and dectrines of Devils speaking lyes in hypocrisie 1 Tin● 4.1.12 and John the Apostle gives a caveat against credulity in this case Beloved beleeve not every spirit but try the spirits whether they be of God 1 Ioh. 4.1 and that Christians are admonished to try all things 1 Thes 5.21 and the Church of Ephesus is commended for trying those who said they were Apostles and were not and found them lyors Revel 2.2 and the tryall is to be made by the law and by the testimonie of the Scripture and if they speake not according to this it is because there is no light in them Esa 20.8 And since I have read of many horrid and abominable things committed upon pretence of revelation of the spirit Lastly since the Government of the Church is not a matter of private inspiration but of publique direction and use to the whole Church and that the Word of God as a standing ru●e is to give us directions in Gospel dispensations I dare not expect where that speakes nothing that the defect will be made out or made up with the whisperings of a private spirst especially against the concurrent judgement of the most Orthodox Divines of the Reformed Churches SECT XXIII Of expedition or delay in setting up of Government Whether Moses and Christ the Iewish and Christian state be so contrary that there is no conformity betweene them Smoke Pag. 54. ANd now after all this discourse and ravelings out of time from Iohns Sermon c. what have you gained not that the Government was so one 〈◊〉 the● you have proved much to my advantage and a clourer and fuller computation then I did the contrary so as you have beene taking some learned paines if you well observe and the Reader will observe you to prove that the Government as first was not suddenly cast into a 〈◊〉 or brought forth in practice which is the very thing I aimed at and truly your paines in it have beene more then mine and I thanke you for it Light I must recall you to our former entercourse to give light for the clearing this exception a New Quere p. 7. you bring in a second Objection against the delay of it thus But vica beresies and sehismes grew too fast and you answer it thus b Ibid. p. 8. so they might have done from Iohns first Sermon to Pauls Epistles and the sending of the Spirit but yet you see there was no Government till after settled upon the people of God And not shewing how long after I calculated the time for you and you are pleased in the end of the precedent Paragraph to commend my paines as more exact then yours and to thanke me for it but yet withall you make as if I had ravelled into time to prove your Tenet against mine own wherein I shall easily disprove you For you brought in the putting off the government from Iohn Baptists time untill Pauls Epistles and the sending of the Spirit where you confusedly shuffle things together which should be carefully distinguished and if you meane it of the time from c See mine Examin of the New Quere p. 39. Iohns preaching to the pouring out of the Spirit at the Feast of Pentecost it is but five yeares if to the first of Pauls Epistles but 21 if to the last 29 yeares and before the end of that Epistle that Government was written which we finde in Scripture Now take which of these times you will and compare it to our time and State and it will not serve for any cause or ground of adjournment or putting off the Church Government to a further Date as you would have it For if that Government which the Scripture hath laid down be offered to acceptation and establishment shall we take 29 yeares time or 21 yeares time or 5 yeares time before we will admit of it especially since we have been for many yeares together conversant in the Scriptures where it is founded and have had the practice of it exemplified unto us in many Reformed Churches for 100 yeares together so that though 5 or 21 or 29 yeares were to be taken for a long time in respect of the first age of the Church before the government of it was setled upon the people of God and yet it was but a while the progresse of the Gospel duely weighed it makes nothing for the delay of Government you drive at and so disappointing your purpose which was out of that instance to make some shew for the slacknesse in Government which you desire I pleaded not your cause but the truths and mine own in prosecution of it against your exception I shall be willing in some other way to doe you a courtesie and to deserve your thankes but expect not I should be so unfaithfull or fickle or simple as to desert the defence I have