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A01042 Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 1627 (1627) STC 11147; ESTC S102413 101,942 162

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CHAPTER VII HOLYNESSE THIS you say in verie deede When you rehearse the Nicene Creede One Church Catholicke Holie and Apostolicke This is another Marke truelie The Church must bee holie Holie Men holie Service Ceremonies and Sacrifice Sacramentes and holie Dayes Are observed in her al-wayes As for the Sayncts and Martyres all And Virgines which you Saynctes doe call Whose Names are in your Kalendar When lived they and where In what Religion was it they died By whom were they Canonized If it were not the Church of Rome Then shall I bee converted soone If they were not your Companie Then is your Fayth an Haeresie Philadelphus I am against both your Wish and Expectation Eriphilus so farre cheared with your man's Poësie as if it may not trouble your cheare I would aske even chearfullie of you why hee hath passed by the Apostolicke Creede which with some more credite hee might haue cited and where-in hee might haue found al-so the propertie of HOLYNESSE to alleadge the Nicene for if hee thought that this word Apostolicke would haue marred his Metre by making his Lyne a foot longer yet the shortnesse of his immediatelie subsequent verses might haue recompensed that slippe neyther hath hee beene in the rest of this Ryme so squimmish as to stand too praeciselie on footes or halfe footes Eubulus Wee will let this passe Philadelphus for as I protested before I am not to insist in taxing all his absurdities no not in the Matter much lesse in his Metre which is lesse materiall I come to speake of this Marke of Holinesse and before I enter to examine the Man's Logicke I will yeelde this much That this once hee hath fallen on a true Propertie of the Church of CHRIST yea and I will grant thus much more That al-be-it all properties be not Marks because more is requyred for being a proper Marke than onlie to bee a proper Attribute yet that Holinesse is even a proper Marke of CHRIST His Church but where-in the Church of Rome hath as litle and lesse advantage than in anie of the former And for clearing of this Philomathes I must first put out your Man from the Lurking-denne of Aequivocation where-in your Doctours delight to lye and thence to shoote at the Innocent in secret For if by Holinesse bee meaned that sanctified Disposition of the Soule and Affections by the Spirit of Regeneration wrought in all true Christians in that Sense it can bee no Marke because GOD onlie knoweth the Hearts of Men. And wee concluded before with consent of Bellarmine That all Markes must of necessitie fall vnder Sense And agayne if by Holynesse bee meaned that which is seene and exposed to perception in Mens outward carriage according to the Law of Righteousnesse in Manners and common conversation neyther thus can it be a proper Marke of CHRIST HIS true Church For that by the restrayning Vertue of GOD HIS Spirite of Administration even Heathen men and Infideles will appeare in all morall Vertues matcheable to Christians except that wee know that what-so-ever is not of Fayth is sinne Was not Paul vnrebukeable as concerning the Law while yet hee was not onlie no Believer but even a cruell Persecuter al-so Philomathes How-so-ever outward Righteousnesse may not bee a sure Marke of Men considered absolutelie for that fayre carriage which by the restrayning Vertue of the Spirit of Administration will bee even in Heathen men yet as you did in short wordes make answere to your selfe that what is not of Fayth is sinne and that there-fore no Heathen conversation how approoved so-ever can be counted for true Holynesse So amongst Professours of Christianitie I thinke that Holynesse in lyfe and manners must bee a most sure discerning Mark wherby to know the true Church as which must in them bee praesumed to proceede of Fayth And wee are a-searching of such Notes as in the communitie of Christians all acclayming the Title of the Church may discerne the Vpright from the Bastard in that same kynde So as your Objection of Heathen carriage in this case is clearlie the same Sophisme which you may remember that before you taxed in our Men. Eubulus Doe you not knowe Philomathes that even amongst Professoures not only will Hypocrites in all these Outwardes appeare to goe farre beyonde even the moste sincere and single-hearted Christians but even superstitious and corrupt vvorshippers yet in a blynde zeale vvill seeme to keepe more preciselie the vvaye of HOLINESSE and RIGHTEOVSNESSE than who haue more and truer Light And if no more were to leade you to knowe that HOLINESSE in this kynde can bee no Marke this alone might tell it you That your owne Men all-wayes in their Disputes with vs about the true Church Doctrine and Worship doe reject and that justlie all Argumentes brought by vs agaynst anie persons or personall actions of Men. How-so-ever agayne in charging vs they doe forget them-selues so farre as all-wayes to fall to personall and those impudentlie false and vnjust Criminations So as you may see that of necessitie this Marke of HOLINESSE must bee vnderstoode of an holie and lawfull Worship and holie and pure Doctrine And al-be-it I confesse that this can never bee anie-where but that there-with al-so shall bee some number of Names both inwardlie sanctified by the Worde and Spirite and al-so showing foorth their Fayth by their workes yet it is the HOLINESSE of Doctrine and lawfull and pure Worship which is the proper Marke of the true Church and not eyther the inward Sanctification of the Soule which we see not or the onlie outward Manners where-in wee may bee deceived of your Man's Argument I will nowe set it before you that you may see the Force there-of That Companie which onlie hath in it holie Men holie Service Ceremonies Sacrifice Sacraments Dayes c. must bee the Church of GOD. But in the Church of Rome onelie these are to bee found There-fore the Church of Rome is the onelie Church of GOD. Now to grant his Proposition or Major in such Sense as where-in I haue all-readie cleared and you all-so Philomathes haue confessed That onlie it can consist I denye his Assumption or Minor as which is shameleslie false except by the onelie sure and layde-downe Rule hee prooue it Philadelphus You must attende Eubulus the Probation of his Assumption in the next Proper Ballad that happeneth to breake out of the Super-aboundance of his Poēticall Veyne and suspende his Conclusion till then And that in the tyme hee may the more seriouslie set himselfe for it what if from his owne Groundes where-of hee glorieth one should drawe this contrarie Conclusion That Companie which hath turned all the Worship of GOD Who will bee worshipped in Spirit and Trueth in a prophane Histrionicke Farce which teacheth for Doctrines the Traditions of Men ' which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians whom their Lord will haue to be free saith Augustine with innumerable ydle superstitious Ceremonies of Mans inventiō in the multitude whereof all