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A26906 The cure of church-divisions, or, Directions for weak Christians to keep them from being dividers or troublers of the church with some directions to the pastors how to deal with such Christians / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1670 (1670) Wing B1234; ESTC R1684 258,570 520

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Physician and with your Estates as well as a studyed Lawyer And why do no Sea-men trust any other to govern the ship as well as an experienced Pilot Do you not see that all men ordinarily are best at that which by long study they have made their profession I know those that I have now to do with will say that Divinity is not learnt by labour and mens teaching as other Sciences and Arts are but by the teaching of the spirit of God and therefore the youngest may have as much of it as the eldest Answ. There is some truth and some falshood and much confusion in this objection It is true that the saving knowledge of Divinity must be taught by the Spirit of God But it is false that labour and humane teaching are not the means which must be used by them who will have the teaching of the spirit And the objection confoundeth 1. The spirits teaching us by inditing the Scripture with the spirits teaching us the meaning of the Scripture 2 And it confoundeth the common knowledge of Divinity with the saving knowledge of it No man commeth to a common knowledge fit for a Teacher of others without the spirits teaching us by the Scripture For that was the first part of the spirits teaching us to inspire the Prophets and Apostles to deliver a teaching Word to the Church by which we might all be taught of God through all generations But many men have excellent common knowledge by this word and by the common help of the spirit without that special help which begetteth saving knowledge Many prophesied and workt miracles in Christs name who had no saving knowledge of him Mat. 7. 22 23. And Paul rejoyced that Christ was preached even by them that did it of strife and envy to add affliction to his bonds Phil. 1. 15 16 17 18. saving knowledge must have a special help of grace And they which had but Solomons knowledge may by the spirit have saving knowledge in a little time by bringing it to the heart and making it clear and lively and effectual But that may be a means of saving others which saveth not the man that hath it And all knowledge requireth time and labour to obtain it though the Spirit giveth it and though it may be sanctifyed to us in a little time 1. Consider I pray you why else it is that God hath so multiplied commands to dig for it as for Silver and search for it as a hidden treasure to cry for Knowledge and lift up our voice for understanding to wait at the posts of wisdoms doors to search the Scriptures and meditate in them day and night Is not this such study and labour as men use to get understanding in other kind of professions Are not these the plain commands of God and are they not their deceivers who contradict them 2. Is it not a blaspheming of Gods spirit to make it the Patron of mens sloth and idleness under pretense of magnifying grace When so many Texts command us diligence and slothfulness is so great a sin And none are so forward to preach as these same men that cry down mens teaching 3. Why hath God setled a Teaching Office in his Church and commandeth all to attend and hear and learn if we are taught by the Spirit without mans help Why were the Apostles sent out into all the world And why are they commanded to teach all Nations and to teach the Church all that Christ commanded them and why doth he promise to be with them to the end of the world but that this is the way of the Spirits teaching to teach those first who are our outward teachers and then to help us to understand them And those are taught of God who are taught by those who are sent of God to be their teachers and have the inward concurrence of his grace 4. Advise with the experience of all the world who was the man that ever you knew able to expound one Chapter in the Bible by the inward teaching of the Spirit alone without any labour of his own or help from others by voice or writing Where dwelleth that man who by meer inspiration can turn one Chapter out of Hebrew or Greek into the vulgar tongue The first part of our preaching or publishing the Scriptures is by Translating them into a language which is understood When Ezra in his Pulpit of wood did read the Law and give the sense the meaning is that he read it in the ancient Hebrew tongue in which it was written and turned it into the language which the Jews then used who were grown much strangers to their ancient speech Where is the man that can solidly unfold any Doctrine of Divinity which he never read or heard of or can teach that truth and defend that Religion which he was never taught by man He is a stranger in the world who seeth not that as in Law and Physick and other professions though some are ignorant even when they are old yet commonly all men are wisest and ablest in their own profession and those know most who having natural capacities have had best help and longest time and hardest studies the Spirit assisting them by his common help to make it Knowledge and by his special grace to make it a sanctifying knowledge Therefo●e remember to give due respect to them that have been longer in Christ than you and to them that have longer studyed the Scriptures and to them that have had greater helps and experience And do not too easily imagine that those who are below them in all these advantages are yet above them in sound understanding Though such a wonder may sometime come to pass DIRECT II. Observe well the secret and subtil workings of spiritual pride and how deep-rooted and dangerous a sin it is and what special temptations to this odious sin the younger and empty●headed Christians have that the resistance of them may be your daily care PRide is the self-idolizing sin the great rebel against God the chief part of the Devils image that one sin which breaketh every commandment the Heart of the old man the root and Parent and summary of all other sin the Antichristian vice which is most directly contrary to the life of Christ the principal object of Gods hatred and disdain and the mark of those whom he delighteth to tread down and the certain Prognostick of dejection and abasement either by humbling repentance or damnation It is called Spiritual Pride from the Object when men are proud of spiritual excellencies real or supposed And this is so much worse than Pride of Beauty apparel riches high places or high birth as the abuse of great and excellent things is worse than the abuse of vanities and tri●les and as things spiritual are in themselves more contrary to the nature of pride and therefore the sin hath the greater enormity The common exercise of this Religious or spiritual Pride is first about our Knowledge and secondly
child of God And if you knew how every word of oblequy especially by back-biting against your brethren doth tend to infect the hearers with the same vices and kill their Love and lead them into divisions you would take heed for the sake of others Unless you are of those who are foolisher than the devil and would build Christs house and Kingdome by dividing it Math. 12. One raileth at Luther and another at Calvin and another at Arminius and another at this man and another at that for matters which are above their reach and the people are taught to rail at all and to make it also their talk behind mens backs ●o prate against this man and that man and the other and in time to shew it by breaking into sects In a word such carnal courses of their Teachers do make or harden carnal professors to be one for Paul and another for Apollo and another for Cephas but few sincerely and prudently for Christ so that instead of Holiness Love and Concord we have in almost all company little but ignorant censorious wrangling at the opinions of those that they never were acquainted with or at the controverted practises or circumstances of worship which are not suitable to their prejudice and custom and of which they never desired to be the impartial hearers of a just account If ever God will shew mercy to his Church he will give them Pastors after his heart who shall abound in Light and Love and lead the people into Concord upon the ancient terms and make it their work to bring this Love-killing spirit in●o hatred whether it work by the way of st●iving-disputes or dividing principles or practises or by reproaching others by corporal cruelty or by a Religious censorious cruelty which doth not strike men but unchurch and damn them and separate from them as men unfit for christian communion And whilest the Pastors take another course we must patiently wait and pity the Church and fore-see our further misery in this prognostick though the guilty being puffed up with the conceits of their preciousness to God do promise themselves the desires of their hearts Are not the sons of Levi yet refined when they have been in so many furnaces and so long When wisedom holiness and humility are their nature and selfish pride and worldliness are cured this wrinkled malignant ENVY will then cease and an honest emulation to excel one another in wisdome and Love and all good works will then take place And then we shall not like drunken men one day fight and wound each other and the next day cry out of our wounds and yet go on in our drunken fits to make them wider DIRECT XXII Lastly Let all the Ministers of Christ so deeply study their wonderfull pattern of Love and tenderness meekness and patience and all those passages of Holy Scripture which still commend those vertues to his servants till their souls are cast into this sacred mould and habituated to this Image and imitation of their Lord And then Vertue will go from them and they will be healing among all where-ever they shall come As fire goeth out from the flinty contenders by their collisions which maketh them still incendiaries and consumers of the Churches Peace I Will therefore end these Directions with the bare repetition of some more of those sacred words besides those forecited which may be fit to breed such a gracious habit in those that will faithfully study and receive them Isa. 9. 6 7. The government shall be laid upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor the mighty God the everlasting father the Prince of Peace Of the increase of his Government and Peace there shall be no end Isa. 40. 11. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd he shall gather the lambs with his arm and carry them in his bosome and shall gently lead those that are with young Isa. 42. 1 2 3. 4. Behold my servant whom I uphold mine elect in whom my soul delighteth I have put my spirit upon him he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles He shall not cry nor lift up nor cause his voice to be heard in the street A bruised reed shall he not break and the smoking slax shall he not quech he shall bring forth judgement unto truth He shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement in the earth and the isles shall wait for his law Isa. 44. 3 4 5. I will pour water upon him that is thirsty and floods upon the dry ground I will pour my spirit on thy seed and my blessing on thy off-spring And they shall spring up as among the grass as willows by the water-courses One shall say I am the Lords and another shall call himself by the name of Iacob and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the Lord and surname himself by the name of Israel Psal. 110. 2 3. Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power in the beauties of holiness Ezek. 34. 2 3 4 5. Wo to the shepherds of Is●ael that feed themselves should not the shepherds feed the flocks Ye eate the fat and cloath you with the wool ye kill them that are fed but ye feed not the flock The diseased have ye not strengthened neither have ye healed that which was sick neither have ye bound up that which was broken neither have ye brought again that which was driven away neither have ye sought that which was lost But with Force and with Cruelty have ye ruled them and they were scattered because there is no shepherd Read the rest of that Chapter Isa. 11. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Iesse and a branch shall grow out of his roots And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him the spirit of wisedome and understanding the spirit of counsel and might the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord and shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes nor reprove after the hearing of his ears but with righteousness shall he judge the poor and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked The wolf shall dwell with the lamb and the leopard shall lie down with the kid and the calf and the young lion and the fa●ling together and a little child shall lead them And the cow and the bear shall feed their young ones shall lie down together and the lion shall eat straw like the oxe and the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice d●n They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
your foul back-biting reviling censorious contentious tongues do not prove the contrary 13. who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you Let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisedome that is Let him that would be thought more knowing and religious than his neighbours be so much more blameless and meek to all men and excel them in good works v. 14. But if ye have a bitter zeal for so is the Greek word and strife in your hearts glory not in such a zeal or in your greater knowledge and lie not against the truth 15. This wisdome descendeth not from above as you imagine who father it on Gods word and spirit but is earthly sensual or natural and devillish O doleful mistake that the world the flesh and the Devil should prove the cause of that conceited spiritual knowledge and excellency which they thought had been the inspiration of the spirit v. 16. For where zeal and strife 〈◊〉 that is a striving contentious zeal against brethren there is confusion or tumult and unquietness and every evil work O lamentable reformers that set up every evil work while they seemed zealous against evil v. 17. But the wisdome that is from above is first pure then peaceable gentle and easie to be intreated full of mercy and good fruits without partiality or wrangling and without Hypocrisie And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace when peace-breakers that sow in divisions and contention shall reap the fruit of unrighteousness though they call their way by the most religious names Thus I have briefly shewed you what V●nity and Division are that wrong apprehensions draw you not to sin DIRECT VIII When any thing needeth amendment in the Church remember that the best Christian must be the forwardest to reformation and ●he backwardest to Division and must search and try all means of Reforming which make not against the concord of the Church I Do not here determine in what cases you may or may not separate from any company of faulty Christians I only say that you must never separate what God hath conjoyned the Holiness and the Vnity of believers If corruptions blemish and dishonour the Congregation Do not say Let sin alone I must not oppose it for fear of division But be the forwardest to reduce all to the will of God And yet if you cannot prevail as you desire be the backwardest to divide and separate and do it not without a certain warrant and extream necessity Resolve with Austin I will not be the chaff and yet I will not go out of the floor though the chaff be there Never give over your just desire and endeavour of Reformation And yet as long as possibly you can avoid it forsake not the Church which you desire to reform As Paul said to them that were ready to forsake a sea-wrackt vessel If these abide not in the ship ye cannot be saved Many a one by unlawful flying and shifting for his own greater peace and safety doth much more hazard his own and others DIRECT IX Forget not the great difference between casting out the wicked and impenitent from the Church by discipline and the godlies separating from the Church it self because the wicked are not cast out The first is a great duty The second is ordinarily a great sin THe question is not Whether the impenitent should be put away from Church-Communion That 's not denied But whether you should separate from the Church because they are permitted This is it which we call you to beware Not but that in some cases a Christian may lawfully remove from one Church to another that hath more light and purity for the edification of his soul. But before you separate from a faulty Church as such as may not lawfully be communicated with you must look well about you and be able to prove that thing which you affirm Many weak Christians marking those Texts which bid us avoid a man that is an Heretick and to have no company with disorderly walkers and not to eat with flagitious persons do not sufficiently mark their sense but take them as if they call'd us to separate from the Church with which these persons do communicate Whereas if you mark all the Texts in the Gospel you shall find that all the separation which is commanded in such cases besides our separation from the Infidels or Idolatrous world or Antichristian and Heretical confederacies and no-Churches is but one of these two sorts First either that the Church cast out the impenitent sinner by the power of the Keyes Secondly or that private men avoid all private familiarity with them And both these we would promote and no way hinder Thirdly but that the private members should separate from the Church because such persons are not cast out of it shew me one Text to prove it if you can Let us here peruse the Texts that speak of our withdrawing from the wicked 1 Cor. 5. Is expresly written to the whole Church as obliged to put away the incestuous person from among them and so not to eat with such offenders So is that in 2 Thes. 3. and that in Tit. 3. 10. A man that is an Heretick after the first and second admonition avoid Unless it be a Heretick that hath already separated himself from our communion And then it can be put private familiarity which we are further to avoid In brief there is no other place of Scripture that I know of which commandeth any more I have before shewed that abundance of Church corruptions or of scandalous members were then among them and yet the Apostle never spake a syllable to any one Christian to separate from any one of all those Churches Which we cannot imagine that the Holy Ghost would have wholly omitted if indeed it had been the will of God Obj. But then why did Luther and the first Pretestants separate from the Church of Rome and how will you justifie them from Schisme Ans. Its pity that sloth and sortishness should keep any Protestant or Papist either in such ignorance as to need any help to answer so easie a question at this day Let not equivocal names deceive us and the case is easie By the word Church the Scripture still meaneth first either the Universal Church which is the body or Kingdome of Christ alone Secondly or particular Congregations associated for personal communion in Gods worship But the Pope hath feigned another kind of thing and called it The Church That is The Vniversality of Christians as headed by himself as the constitutive and governing head Whereas first God never instituted or allowed such a Church Secondly nor did ever the Universality of Christians acknowledge this usurping Head Shew me in Scripture or in Church-History that either there ever was de facto or ought to be de jure such a thing in the world as they call the Church and I profess I will immediately turn
these are such as come to their knowledge by hard and laborious studies and meditation though also by the spirit blessing their endeavours And they are such as give proof of the knowledge which they pretend to And they are such as employ their knowledge to preserve the peace and concord of believers and do not proudly make a stir with it to set up their own names though thereby they set the world on fire Make therefore no more of these vain defences of your Pride Let no man think of himself and his own understanding above what is meet I perswade you not to deny any truth which indeed you know nor to doubt of any thing which is made truly certain to you But value not your understandings above their worth and fix not too rashly upon your first apprehensions and go not away with a passionate confidence in your poor raw untryed and defective conceptions But remember that you know but little and must have time and labour to grow up to the rest Be not wise in your own conceits Rom. 12. 16. 11. 25. Prov. 26. 5. 28. 11. And this is commonly the sin of the slothful that never were at that pains for knowledge by which it must be attained The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason Prov. 26. 16. You little think when you are conceited of your knowledge that you are further from wisdom than a fool Prov. 26. 12. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit There is more hope of a fool than of him Be not wise in thy own eyes Prov. 3. 3. Wo to them that are wise in their own eyes and prudent in their own sight Isa. 5. 21. Be not righteous overmuch neither make thy self over-wise why shouldst thou destroy thy self The self-conceited must become fools in their own esteem if ever they will be wise as the worldly wise must own that which is folly in the judgment of the world if ever they will be wise 1 Cor. 3. 18. 2. And there is a Religious Pride of Goodness as well as of Knowledge which must yet more carefully be avoided as being yet worse than the former as the thing abused is much better And this worketh as subtilly and secretly as the former It may not only consist with many complaints and confessions of sinfulness weakness and unworthyness but even with doubts of sincerity and so much dejectedness as seemeth to draw near to desparation It is an ordinary thing to hear the same persons talk in a complaining doubting and almost despairing manner of speech and yet to have high expectations of respect from others and to be most proudly impatient of the least undervaluing or neglect Yea Pride will make an advantage to it self of all these humble confessions and complaints And it is an old observation that many are proud of their humility For though it be true that Austin saith that Grace is a thing which no man can use amiss the meaning is only that Grace efficiently can do nothing ami●s For if it do amiss so far it is not grace Yet objectively all Grace may be abused that is a man may make it the object of his Pride and the occasion of many other sins And this Religious Pride of Goodness doth ordinarily work under the pretext of Thankfullness to God for his grace and Zeal for Holyness But it may be known by this that it always tendeth to lift us up and to the diminishing of Love to oothers and to the contempt of the weak and the censuring of our brethren and the division and disturbance of the Church of God They are lamentable effects which this Pride produceth in the Church and all Societies where it cometh It maketh all mens Goodness seem little except our own It causeth the people to undervalue their Pastors and turneth compassion of me●s weaknesses into a sowr contempt It setteth a man in his own conceit so near to God that he looketh down on other men as earthly animals in comparison of himself It maketh new terms of Church-Communion and teacheth men to make narrower the door of the Church than God hath made it It causeth men to deny and v●li●ie Gods grace in those that answer not their expectations And to think that the Church is not worthy of their Communion And to think that none are so fit as they to be the Reformers of the Church and of the world I intreat those who are in danger of this pernicious sin to think with themselves 1. What a heynous crime and folly it is for one that but lately was a child of the Devil and a sink of sin to be proud so quickly of their goodness And for one that so lately was groaning and weeping with a broken heart for a sinful life to be already puffed up with the conceits of godlyness And for one who daily maketh confession to God of a sinful heart and a faulty life and of great unworthyness to contradict all this by an over-valuing of his own piety And how incongruous it is for one who professeth to hope for justification by free grace mercy only to have nothing of his own but what 's defiled and who abhorreth the Doctrine of merit and talketh so much of our emptyness and insufficiency to be yet puffed up with the conceit of his spirituality and worth And what an odious self-con●radiction it is to make your self like the Devil in pride because you think you are like God in holiness 2. And consider that the more you are proud of your Goodness the less you have to be proud of If this sin be predominant it is certain that you have no saving grace at all And what an odious thing and miserable case is it to be proud of Holyness when you are unholy and to be damned both for want of it and for being proud of it That a man should be proud of that for want of which he must suffer the fire of Hell But if your pride be not predominant yet it is certain that in what measure soever you have that vice in that measure you are destitute of grace For true grace and pride are as contrary as life and death 3. And study well the meaning of all these Scriptures For you shall not say that I mis-interpret them to you Why was it that Christ mentioneth the Parable of the Pha●●see and the Publican one thanking God that he was not so bad as others and the other thinking himself unworthy to look up to heaven Luke 18. 10 11. c. Why did he give us the parable of the prodigal who confesseth that he was unworthy to be called a Son and of his elder brother who swelled with envy at his entertainment Why was it that Christ seemed not strict enough to the Pharisees in keeping the Sabbath nor in his Diet nor in his Company but they called him a gluttonous person and a wine-bibber and a friend of Publicans
because God useth to work by means and vary the success according to the quality of the means and instruments we may well conclude that the Gifts and Holiness of the Pastors is a very excellent and needful help to the peoples setled Piety and Pence And that where this help is wanting that ordinary means is wanting by which God useth to convey this blessing I have met with many who are either insufficient or ungodly themselves or are guilty of bringing such into the Churches who use to make very light of this and say God is not tied to mens goodness or abilities in distributing his graces which is true but nothing to the purpose He is not tied by any force or necessity nor is he so tied as that he cannot do otherwise But yet this is his ordinary way of working which hath made it a maxime that as to means Infused graces are obtained in the same way as acquired gnifts And let the contrary minded answer me these questions First If it be only the Office of the Ministery and not the Gifts and Graces that are ordinarily needful to their success why doth Religion decay and perish in all parts of the world where the Gifts and Graces of the Ministers decay Why are almost all the Greek Churches the Armenians the Russians the Abassians so lamentably ignorant and most of them as vicious as ignorant in so much that the notorious wickedness of their lives and contemptibleness of their understandings doth keep Christianity out of most of the Heathen and Infidel Nations of the world that are acquainted with them and keepeth up the reputation of Mahometanism and Heathenism Is not the experience of all the Christian world a sufficient proof The Greeks and other such corrupted Churches have a truly ordained Ministery as well as we if that were enough to serve the turn Secondly What is more evident among our selves than that Parishes do much vary in piety and concord as their Pastors vary in ability piety diligence and fidelity Thirdly Though Parents have all equal authority to instruct and rule their children and families is any thing more notorious than that notorious ignorance and impiety prevaileth in most families where the Rulers are ignorant and impious Yet they have as true a power from God to do their duty as the Pastor hath to do his yea and promises from God for the success Fourthly What is the Office but an Authority and Obligation to do the Ministerial work And will work succeed well that is not done Or will it be done by bare Authority and Obligation to do it Will it serve to the building of your house to the conduct of an Army to the healing of your sores or sicknesses that you have an Architect a Captain a Chyrurgeon and Physician whose office is to do these works Fifthly What need men study or bestow so many years at the University if Ordination and Office be enough Sixthly Interpreting the Original Text is one part of the Ministerial work If the bare Office without the Tongues did never make any of you a good Translator and Expositor why should the bare office serve turn for other parts of the work without proportionable abilities Seventhly Why do you lay so much blame on the Ministers who dissent from you or that are the teachers of the dissenting people as if all the divisions were caused by them if the difference of teachers make no difference in the work and flocks Eighthly Why is it that in most ages of the the world the Pastors of one mind have desired the silencing or deposing of those that were against them as being injurious to the flocks if all Ministers be alike to them what need there so much silencing imprisoning and banishing as the world hath seen if the Office alone do make sufficient Pastors Ninthly Why also is there so much difference between the Pastors reputations and their labours when they are dead Why is the name and works of an Augustine a Hierome a Basil a Nazianzen more honourable than of any other Pastor who had as true ordination and office as they Tenthly Why should the Kingdome be at so much cost upon the Ministery And why should one have more maintainance than another If the Office alone be all that 's necessary one Ab●na may serve for ordination in all the Empire of Abassia and a few Priests may be had for ten pounds a year who have the same ordination as the ablest men But having sufficiently shamed this errour I dismiss it If the reverence due to the Office be once lost the labours of all the Ministery will be obstructed And if only the Person lose the reverence of his place his own labours will be hindred The contempt of the Office and so the whole Ministery tendeth to Infidelity or Atheism And the contempt of particular Ministers tendeth to Schism and to the ignorance and corruption of their flocks And though the contempt of the person is bad enough of it self yet if it fall on many and there remain not a considerable number who preserve their necessary reputation it turneth to the contempt of the Office it self and consequently of the Gospel And it must be apparent worth that must preserve the persons honour The silver lace did make the Apprentices in Apelles shop to reverence a foolish gallant a while but when he began to talk they all fell on laughing at him Our grave attire will go but a little way to keep up our reputation without some better testimony of our worth An empty head a stumbling and hesitant tongue dry and dull and disorderly preaching and sensless cold or confused praying a vain and frothy kind of talk a common and carnal conversation all these or any one of these will more abate the reverence of our persons than the title of Doctors or the length of our clothing or the enlarging of the philacteries will advance it Math. 23. 5. Mark 12. 40. Luk. 20. 47. It is their double measure of the spirit of wisdome and Goodness which must procure a double measure of honour to the Ministery And if we excel them never so much in Learning it will not suffice unless we excel them in our proper Ministerial gifts of preaching exhortation and prayer which are the works of our Office it will neither preserve the honour of our Office nor attain its ends When many of the people can open the case of their souls in prayer in more orderly clear and congruous expressions than the Pastor can it tendeth to bring down the honour of the Pastor in the peoples esteem Some think to repair this by casting out all prayer except that which is read out of a book or recited by memory alone that so there may be no observable difference of mens abilities But this is so far from curing the peoples disease that it increaseth it And they still say all this is no more than we can do our selves or then a child of ten years